Northern Martial Arts versus Southern Martial Arts

[Mega_Fist]

My mate Andy is really good at Wing Tsun and Judo, and he told me that southern martial arts are WAY better than northenr martial arts but I don't know if that's just because he does judo.

Do any of you know which is better?

I was thinking of learning northern like eagle or something but now that Andy told me southern is better I don't know- so maybe Hung Gar or somehting.

any advice from you?

[CHAZ]

Neither Northern or Southern is better or worse than the other. Its the practioner of the art not the art itself that wins fights. A poor practioner of the Southern styles can loose to a skilled practioner of the Northern styles, and vice versa.
My advise is ignore what your friend says, and visit both the Northern and Southern styles around you and find a school that you like and feel comftable itraining at.

[Mulong]

The typical northern style are long fist (changquan) derived; hence, these style are a bit more tertiary in nature. Meaning, the two-dimensional aspects are obvious, e.g., tantui (snapping leg), etc. However, long fist derived styles conceal their techniques, i.e., tertiary aspects; hence, being commonly refer to as flowery hands.

Consequently, southern styles are more primary and secondary in nature; in a colloquial speech, ‘You get what you see!’ Thus, being direct in nature; hence, a practitioner could typically learn his arsenal quicker.

However, in the typical nature of Chinese martial arts, ‘what is obvious isn’t.’ Meaning, some style don’t follow these norms; for example, bajiquan (eight extremities boxing), which is non-long fist based style, is very direct in nature, just like xingyiquan (shape thought boxing). Then you have southern style like cailifoquan (grass plum Buddha boxing), who possess very intricate lu (way) at its advance level, which can be perceived as flowery.

In closing, 'the man makes the style,' but you do need a shifu, who knows the way of the style…

[Fu-Pow]

[FONT=Georgia][FONT=Book Antiqua]The typical northern style are long fist (changquan) derived; hence, these style are a bit more tertiary in nature. Meaning, the two-dimensional aspects are obvious, e.g., tantui (snapping leg), etc. However, long fist derived styles conceal their techniques, i.e., tertiary aspects; hence, being commonly refer to as flowery hands.

Consequently, southern styles are more primary and secondary in nature; in a colloquial speech, ‘You get what you see!’ Thus, being direct in nature; hence, a practitioner could typically learn his arsenal quicker.

I think that there is alot of truth in what you said. Being a student of Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji I can tell you that Choy Lay Fut is a lot more straight forward and easy to apply. Chen Taiji has this "mysterious" quality about it that makes it hard to understand.


Then you have southern style like cailifoquan (grass plum Buddha boxing), who possess very intricate lu (way) at its advance level, which can be perceived as flowery.

Don't you mean "turtle plum buddha boxing"? Haha...remember that Choy and Lee are family names, they don't refer to the literal meaning of the words. But you probably already know that!

Anyways, Choy Lay Fut has Northern roots as well, hence the perception that it is flowery. Choy Lay Fut is almost like Northern kung fu applied in a Southern way.

[Mulong]

Fu-Pow,

Indeed, you are right; however, sometimes surnames possess a hidden meaning that may be over looked. For example, Baker: English
Occupational name for a baker, derived from Middle English bakere.

[g0pher]

Northern = Complex fancy hand movement, and very high kicks.

Southern = Not so fancy hand movements, but low very practical kicks.

Spirit Fist (my style) has northern hand movements, and southern kicks. Great stuff for self defense. :D

[gfx]

I personally find northern styles more developed with more advanced theories and applications.

Northern China had historically been more war-prone, also it has also historically been the civilization center of China. Hence its combatives arts are more developed.

For a simple example, the power generation difference between northern and southern arts is vastly different. Northern art's body structure in power generation is vastly superior to southern's.

To say that northern arts is fancy hand movements and high kicks is incorrect. Most of the famous major style in CMA are northern: XingYi, Taiji, Baji, BaGua, ChangQuan ( these include Cha, Hua, Hong....etc ), mantis, etc etc.

Comparitively speaking, southern arts are only known in their immediate area. Go to China, and ask them about WingChun and CaiLiFuo, they'll say "who?".

The false idea that northern styles are fancy is propagated by the ChangQuan forms in contemporary wushu. While it's similar to the movement in the Cha, Hua styles, it contains none of the power generation, and combative ideas in these arts.

Of course, with any martial art, if one trains diligently in it it'll be very applicable.

* I just noticed that this post is in the southern board, probably shouldn't have posted this here eh ;) *

[TenTigers]

That being said, many people feel that the southern arts further refined the technique and developed their styles in order to defeat their northern opponents, the Ching. Otherwise, why would they still be practiced? Also if you go to China, you will find many people are well aware of Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut. Perhaps you were asking tourists! Did you ask in the dialect of that region? Or did you say Wing Chun to people in Beijing? Young Chun would be closer to the mark. But then again, I doubt they know what a Hot Dog is in Frankfort either. Est' que vous avez french fries?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! :D :p

[Mega_Fist]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.

I reckon it would be really cool to see a fight between north and south-

north would try to kick south loads and if south punches then north will block with his kicks. This sounds really cool!

Any videos of this?



"Power comes from the mind of the spiriutal tiger. The dragon is the essence." Ninja saying

[hskwarrior]

Choy Lee Fut, wing chun, and Hung ga are three of the most popular styles to come from southern china. to say that people in china wouldn't know them is incorrect. in fact the choy lee fut name is so big that people who come to america and see my schools name "Hung Sing" immediately recognize it as CLF.

usually in tournaments, i notice choy lee fut comes out the winner. i'm sure other clf fighters have fought against and won against northern stylists.

i don't know how much clf experience you may have had, but clf was created during times of war, and fine tuned during those turbulent times. the southern chinese were some very hardcore fighters, and would kill without thinking twice.

off the subject, did you guys know that in some parts of southern china the famine was so bad they were serving up human meat pork buns. i recently read somewhere that many children were missing because the parents were selling them off to the highest bidder.

[Fu-Pow]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.

No, absolutely false.

[Mulong]

It is interesting the kicking (ti) misnomer continues to be fanned, as southern being all hitting (da).

In reality, they are few northern styles that actually use high kick per say; the most common being spring leg (tantui), which is executed at waist level.

Actually northern style use a lot of hitting (da) theories, just like any other southern style; for example, fanziquan (thumbing center boxing), use the liquan (standing fist), just like yongchuanquan/wihng cheun kyuhn (forever spring boxing).

[Fu-Pow]

Choy Lee Fut, wing chun, and Hung ga are three of the most popular styles to come from southern china. to say that people in china wouldn't know them is incorrect. in fact the choy lee fut name is so big that people who come to america and see my schools name "Hung Sing" immediately recognize it as CLF.

usually in tournaments, i notice choy lee fut comes out the winner. i'm sure other clf fighters have fought against and won against northern stylists.

Well, because CLF is "easier" to apply ("easy" is, of course, a relative term) it makes sense that you would find some very good CLF fighters.

Just because Northern arts have a higher level of complexity doesn't mean that everyone is going to achieve that level. For example, Taiji is one of these higher level arts but the way most practice it, it would not hold up against someone with equal experience in a "working man's art" like Choy Lay Fut.

However, in my experience the higher levels of Taiji (in terms of Yi, Jin and Tao ie intent, body mechanics and strategy) go way beyond anything Choy Lay Fut has to offer. But how many people have the time, talent and initiative to get to that level that makes Taiji so effective? I would guess not many.

So where is your priority? To learn something that won't have a pay off for at least 10 years of study? Or to learn something that is easier to understand and immediately applicable but doesn't have the same kind of potential?

I guess in my case I chose not to answer that question and so I try to learn both ways. :)

[Ben Gash]

I've never found longfist particularly hard to apply. Indeed, teaching a newbie to apply Sow Choy can be quite difficult. I'm sure if your friend Andy did his Judo without a partner, some of it would look like northern kung fu ;)
There are very good schools teaching very effective self defence from both camps, and folklore and generalisations are not particularly useful :rolleyes:

[Mulong]

We must take into account that northern styles are indeed influenced by their environment, i.e., winter climate, and their heritage, i.e., military. Hence, the uses of restricted clothing would definitely limit certain movements; thus the use of big movements, e.g., tongbeiquan, piguaquan, etc. However, we must realize these styles, especially pre-Qing dynasty, were actual military style, i.e., taizuquan, sunbinquan, etc.; were also restricted physically by armor; this can seen in the applications, i.e., use of the shoulder, forearms, etc., in Chen shi taijiquan.

Therefore, taking these notions into account; northern styles by norm have more time on hand to developed particular theories that weren’t visible to the naked eyes, i.e., tertiary techniques/flowery, because of the winter climate and their military heritage.

Hey, what can someone do for four months, i.e., winter season, out of the year; just practice, practice, and more practice!

[TenTigers]

Congratulations to Vasquez on the birth of his son, Mega_Fist!
He is a (cow) chip off the old Block(head) !
Nice to see he is continuing the dynasty.
A new poster boy for Pro Choice and Planned Parenthood :D

[gfx]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.


Your friend is wrong.

Most northern styles rarely execute high kicks, the high kicks you see in forms are for practicing range of movements. When they do execute high kicks, it's when they have you controlled with their hands, then the kick comes out.

It's false to say that northern styles takes longer to apply than southern. How can a style that is taught in military takes a long time to learn? Soldiers need to be combat ready as soon as possible, they don't have 10 years to master anything, they have maybe a few months max. Any MA taught properly should produce competent fighters within a short range of time ( yes, that includes taiji ). Mastery of the more complex theories will take time, but that's true for anything.

You must remember that most northern arts like Baji, XingYi, Pigua, Fanzi, ChuoJiao, Cha, Hua..etc ARE the working people's art. They were passed on in rural areas by farmers of the yellow plains. Even taiji was passed on for a long time in the farmer village Chen JiaGou before it became as wide spread as it is today. Where do the soldiers came from? Farmers. What do the soldiers do when they retire? Farming. This is true even today in China.

[Mulong]

Pardon GFX,

Not certain if you are referring to my comments or not? When I mention military, I was referring to the use of armor, especially styles that go back to the Song Dynasty.

Indeed, northern styles don’t take longer per say, then southern styles; however, we must look at the intricacy within certain northern styles, i.e., fanziyingzhaoquan, liuhetanglangquan, etc., possess very intricate da (strike) notions, which takes time to master.

However, you mention a few styles here that have roots in military, but were transmitted to peasant; for example, a military officer, Hua, Zongqi passed his knowledge of jiaziquan to the peasants of Guanxian County, Shandong Province. Then, Hua invited his classmate Cha, Yuanyi to assist him in transmitting the art of jiaziquan to this community. In time this art would be divided into two styles, carrying the surname of their respected Shifu, i.e., huaquan and chaquan.

Then you have the case Chen shi taijiquan, which was originally transmitted by Chen, Wangting, who was an officer under the Ming Dynasty and was greatly influence by General Qi, Jiguang, who author a manual on military fighting arts.

Indeed, you are right- warriors, traditionally emerge as farmers and at the end of their military lives they return home to harvest the crops; this cycle still continues to this day in age through out numerous societies.

However, because the nature being of a farmer is waiting for harvest- it gave them the opportunity to developed intricate style, because time was on their side, not like styles like yongchunquan, which was designed to learn quickly, i.e., less lu, etc., because the practitioners were traveling actors.

However, the actual problem here is - nothing in Chinese martial arts can be actually stereotyped; hence, describing one style may not work for the next one. :o

[BAI HE]

The answer is simple. The better "gong-fu" man wins. The method is really secondary. I study the Internal Arts and have for some time, I don't really think it would give me any advantage over a superior "external" boxer. I may be a better "boxer" beacuase I work hard and have a good method, but the fact remains is that there are "external" and "internal" boxers that are so much better than I.

What I have seen in CMA? There are techniques and counters that run through all arts. In my Bagua we have some Mantis hand, a ton of Shuai Jao and some Pheonix eye fist. No one re-invented the wheel, they just changed training
according to emphasis.

[gfx]

I competely agree with you Baihe and Mulong.

The point I was trying to make was that don't stereotype other styles of martial arts based on such misinformation as mentioned in posts before. I'm trying to bring more information to the other posters so that they may think for themself and try to seek out more information about this themselves.

I was also in the same boat when I was learning southern arts, and was exposed to the "northern is fancy kicks" or "northern is advanced, takes a long time to learn" mentality.

[SimonM]

Neither is better imho. With a good teacher both northern and southern arts can be very effective. If you like Shuai Jiao you must not discount the northern arts.

I personally have trained mostly in Hei Long (guess which province that one originated in), and two southern styles: Hung Gar and Wing Chun. And I like the fusion of north and south this gives me.

[SimonM]

Comparitively speaking, southern arts are only known in their immediate area. Go to China, and ask them about WingChun and CaiLiFuo, they'll say "who?".



This is actually pretty true. When I mention Hung Gar usually I just get blank looks until I say "the style that Wong Fei Hung did" at which point they go "Ooooohhhh! Wong Fei Hung!" and I've given up trying to explain WC. I tried showing people the Siu Lim Tao for a while to describe it but they mostly thought it was a form of Qigong because I didn't move around at all. :D

[SimonM]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.



Bullcr@p!

Troll dirt.

Bollox.

On both counts. There are many hand techniques in the North and many kicking techniques in the south. No offense but if your "mate Andy (Judo grandmaster)" is not just a figment of your imagination (I believe he probably is) he is an ignorant fool and should shut his trap about stuff he has no understanding of.

[Mulong]

Certainly a good Shifu makes the style valid!

Personally, my foundation is southern based styles; however, within the past six years I took a left turn and started to practice northern based style. I quickly noticed the whole kicking (ti) notion was simply talk.

Indeed, some advance taolu (set way) possess tengkong bailian (jump space swing continuous/outside crescent), i.e., chaquan, or xuanzi (tornado center/butterfly kick), i.e., fanziyingzhaoquan. However, by the norm they all use the standard tantui (spring leg/snap kick). On the other hand there is chuojiao, which is a truly a kicking art, which possess unique kicks, but they aren’t high per say either.

Therefore, the only major difference between northern and southern maybe the way you play it. Borrowing from music, the theory of:

Legato: Smooth and connected
Staccato: Short and detached

Hence, legato can be perceived as fluid-long movements, e.g., chaquan; therefore, staccato can be perceived as solid-short movements, e.g., hongjiaquan. However, Chinese martial art doesn’t play by its own rule; you have northern style like bajiquan, which uses staccato and southern style like cailifoquan which uses legato; crap! ;)

[SimonM]

Or you could just summarize:

The North/South distinction is largely stereotypical and has little to do with the reality of technique beyond a few generalized (and often violated) principles on each side. :D

[Mulong]

Very true SimonM!

Personally, hate talking about Chinese martial arts to laypersons or even beginners, because it is to intricate to be explained in a few sentences, because there is always a “but,” somewhere in the explanation. :p

[David Jamieson]

it all melds together.

north/south/east/west/kicking/punching/stopping/crushing/drilling/pounding/grinding/stomping/smashing and so on and so on.

You will only be limited by your own actual experience.

the thing about kungfu is that you have to do it to know what it is. And when you do it long enough, you'll know what it is and where you are capable and where you are limited. Maintain your capability, work on your limitation and you will cojtinue to strive towards kungfu.

btw and fwiw, these distinctions are common and are intended to provide verbiage for total newbs, hence the whole north/south thing. Mostly it's an idea with no really strong foundations with a few exceptions in regards to principle use in a given style.

One could also make teh north / south equation in regards to china's communism vs nationalism.

mao tse tung vs sun yat sen and so on.

the divisions are just indicators to a starting point. Once you're walking it, you're walking it and there's just a big empty jug to fill with nourishment. :D

[Fu-Pow]

Therefore, the only major difference between northern and southern maybe the way you play it. Borrowing from music, the theory of:

Legato: Smooth and connected
Staccato: Short and detached



Nice analogy. As a musician myself its easy to understand.




Hence, legato can be perceived as fluid-long movements, e.g., chaquan; therefore, staccato can be perceived as solid-short movements, e.g., hongjiaquan. However, Chinese martial art doesn’t play by its own rule; you have northern style like bajiquan, which uses staccato and southern style like cailifoquan which uses legato; crap! ;)

Except Choy Lay Fut is a long staccato style. Where as Taiji is a long connected style.

[Mulong]

Fu-Pow,

Cailifoquan, has a lovely legato flavor compare to hongjiaquan or zhoujiaquan, which are so staccato in nature. However, what may differ between cailifoquan from beishiquan (northern style boxing), is the use of angles; most northern styles stay within a straight line, excluding baguazhang. :)

[Ben Gash]

I always find musical analogies good as well. Maybe it's because it's a technical artform.

[Mulong]

Honestly, it is good to inject new terminology to martial art jargon. ;)

[Infrazael]

For a simple example, the power generation difference between northern and southern arts is vastly different. Northern art's body structure in power generation is vastly superior to southern's.

WOW!!! So Northern is vastly superior?!? Why didn't anyone tell me this beforehand!!! I think I'll have to drop my Choy Lay Fut becuase it just can't stand up to t3h d34d1y powers of t3h Northern Arts!!!

[SimonM]

Two things:

1: It is good to state who you are quoting so that others can go back and check the context of the quote without wading through every single post.

2: The statement that individual made was entirely to do with power generation. Unless you think that power generation is the only aspect of a martial art that determines it's quality this is not saying anything close to "abandon CLf".

Relax a bit.

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, but the statement is false. The power generation in CLF is very closely related to that found in many northern styles, as is Hung Gar's. Many Shorthand styles utilise a form of energy generation that is similar to the silk reeling found in Taiji, Baji, Bagua etc (as indeed CLF does in a longarm fashion), so really in terms of power generation, if you show a northern example, there'll be a southern equivalent.

[SimonM]

Hung Gar is one of the three styles I have learned much of (the other two are Wing Chun and a northern style, Hei Long Wu Shu - that's where I picked up the Shuai Jiao and Chin'na I make reference to on occasion - my Sifu says it's grappling was influenced by Mongol styles. I'm making a trip to Nei Mongu sometime next year and hope to get a chance to witness their wrestling while there). As the one aspect of my own fighting that I am particularly renouned for is power generation and as much of that I learned directly from Hung Gar I agree with you. However Infrazazel could have made his point much better by clearly citing the original source and staying relaxed rather than getting so worked up.

As he is relatively new to the forum (by his post count) I was dropping him a bit of helpful advice, nothing more. :)

[MasterKiller]

"Northern Feet" means footwork---mobility. Not high kicking.

[Infrazael]

Two things:

1: It is good to state who you are quoting so that others can go back and check the context of the quote without wading through every single post.

2: The statement that individual made was entirely to do with power generation. Unless you think that power generation is the only aspect of a martial art that determines it's quality this is not saying anything close to "abandon CLf".

Relax a bit.

It was quoted by gfx, on page one.

I tried to quote the whole thing 5 times but everytime I couldn't post it.

Sorry it was gfx, page 1 of this thread.

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah, but the statement is false. The power generation in CLF is very closely related to that found in many northern styles, as is Hung Gar's. Many Shorthand styles utilise a form of energy generation that is similar to the silk reeling found in Taiji, Baji, Bagua etc (as indeed CLF does in a longarm fashion), so really in terms of power generation, if you show a northern example, there'll be a southern equivalent.

I'll agree with you partially. However, it is my understanding that most styles, Northern and Southern alike are Ju Lu Bi (sp?) (ie use "sectional power"), however, the styles like Xing Yi, Taiji and BaGua and some Northern styles at the higher level are not sectional. One part moves, all part moves simultaneously.

In Choy Lay Fut, force is generated from the leg, moves up through the hips, waist, shoulder, elbow and wrist. The force moves in sections thru the body.

In Taiji, force is generated by "bouncing" off the ground, like pressing down on a spring and then the force comes back out through a relaxed structure. In form practice it is gravity compressing "the spring" and and in application it is the opponent + gravity compressing "the spring."

Anyways, that is my understanding. But I like the analogy that martial arts is like a spiral staircase. Depending on where you stand on that staircase you are going to see martial arts slightly differently. Depending on whether you are at a higher or lower level or even if you are nearly at the same level but on a different part of the stairs you might see things completely differently.

Peace. :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You guys are all being duped! Mega-whatever is a TROLL! Judo Andy is make believe!! Don't feed the TROLLS!

[Ben Gash]

But they're so cute, how can you deny them ;)
Anyway, sometimes they lead to meaningful discussions.
Fu Pow, at the higher levels it's just a different way of describing the same thing. Also remeber that my CLF is not necessarily always the same as your CLF.

[Ben Gash]

Anyway, you've just proved my point, as asynchronous power generation is also a hallmark of Zhaquan :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

Anyway, you've just proved my point, as asynchronous power generation is also a hallmark of Zhaquan :cool:

Yeah, I agree that Northern and Southern arts have asynchronous power generation. In fact, I'd say a very large majority do .

But my point is that you rarely, if ever , see synchronous power generation in the Southern arts (or should I say, feel it). Whereas Taiji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua have it and I believe that some of the other Northern arts have it too at what someone else called a "tertiary" level.

Some claim that SPM and such are like Taiji in this respect. But I don't see it. All I see is that they know how to relax. Which is a prerequisite to "synchronous" power but structurally I see what looks like "collapsed" not "peng" (ie inflated.) and there moves are still "asynchronous." Like a whip snapping, not like a spring or ball rolling around.

Can you develop this "synchronous" power on your own even if it is not a part of your system? I think so, sometimes I feel it when doing my Choy Lay Fut. However, I'm not sure if this developed on its own or if it was influence by my Taiji training.

One thing I do know is that the "asynchronous" body mechanic which I have learned through Hung Ga and Choy Lay Fut is an obstacle in my taiji training. Whenever, I push with my teacher it is a weakness that he easily exploits during push hands because he is connected and every joint of his body is synchronized, where as I'm moving section by section.

Anyways, like I said. I believe that we all have a partial truth. No one can be 100 % wrong. We all have a little piece of the puzzle. Our own experiences and personality define the viewpoint that we're looking from.

[Ben Gash]

See to me what you're describing is silk reeling, which should definitely be a part of your CLF expression (techniques like Biu Jong work SO much better with it).
Apparently some of the old 4th generation Sifus from the Chan line really emphasise it , and their performance is almost like Chen Taiji.

[Fu-Pow]

See to me what you're describing is silk reeling, which should definitely be a part of your CLF expression (techniques like Biu Jong work SO much better with it).
Apparently some of the old 4th generation Sifus from the Chan line really emphasise it , and their performance is almost like Chen Taiji.

Hmmm...interesting...I'd like to see those Sifus.

By "silk reeling" I assume your talking about the coordinated "twining" of the joints. Yes, my CLF definitely has that but, the context or "frame" (for lack of a better word) of that the silk reeling motion is different. In Taiji the twisting motion takes place in a much smaller space. In CLF the twisting is big and wide. So big that the "frame" is broken and "collapses" at the end of the movement. Hence, while the beginning of the move starts out "relaxed" the end of the movement requires tension to maintain the frame.

Whereas in Taiji the "frame" never collapses and so very little tension at beginning or end, each twining motion flows seamlessly into the next movement. The "floatiness" or "expansiveness" of the structure is maintained the whole time, each joint moving very little (compared to CLF) but in perfect sychronicity with all the other joints.

It'd be so very easy to show you. Maybe I will post some videos of myself soon so you can see what I mean. Or at least what I think I mean. :D

Oh...and I do Biu Jong with "silk reeling" and those who don't definitely can't make it work correctly. It ends up looking like a karate outward block.

[Infrazael]

Oh...and I do Biu Jong with "silk reeling" and those who don't definitely can't make it work correctly. It ends up looking like a karate outward block.

What do you mean by this? There is a special way to do Biu Jong?

The way I do it is through relaxed "whipping" power like my other CLF attacks -- Biu Jong to me is almost like a diametrically opposed Sau Choy.

However, the power is still the same. But I remember when I first started I used to tense up all the time during a Biu Jong, now I'm relaxed, but what do you mean by "silk reeling?" Should feel it move like a whip, or a wave, or what?

Anyways better to show me in class Fu-Pow.

[Ben Gash]

How big or small you make it is up to you by the end of the day. Surely this is what people mean when they say that external arts become internal at higher levels. It is more than possible to develop silk reeling to the level that you can throw someone using Biu Jong (sticking with that example) using a relatively small arm movement, more akin to a Chen style "ward off" type movement (you'll have to forgive me, I only know Yang style terminology, it would be Peng in Yang).

[Fu-Pow]

What do you mean by this? There is a special way to do Biu Jong?

The way I do it is through relaxed "whipping" power like my other CLF attacks -- Biu Jong to me is almost like a diametrically opposed Sau Choy.

However, the power is still the same. But I remember when I first started I used to tense up all the time during a Biu Jong, now I'm relaxed, but what do you mean by "silk reeling?" Should feel it move like a whip, or a wave, or what?

Anyways better to show me in class Fu-Pow.


Silk Reeling or Chan Si Jin is terminology that comes from Taiji but is not necessarily specific to it. It refers to moving a body in a way that is akin to "reeling silk" or literally "Reel Silk Energy/Skill." And to get even more obscure it refers to the motion of pulling silk strands off of a silkworms cocoon. As the silk is pulled off in a straight line the cocoon spins in a circle. So it refers to moving in a circle and a line at the same time...which equals what?.....ta dah!....a spiral. So all it really means is a spiral or "twining" type motion. If you look at most of the motions in CLF they are not purely straight or circular they "spiral" out or in. A simple example, Cheong Ahn Chui, a straight attack, spirals out from hip.

[Infrazael]

Silk Reeling or Chan Si Jin is terminology that comes from Taiji but is not necessarily specific to it. It refers to moving a body in a way that is akin to "reeling silk" or literally "Reel Silk Energy/Skill." And to get even more obscure it refers to the motion of pulling silk strands off of a silkworms cocoon. As the silk is pulled off in a straight line the cocoon spins in a circle. So it refers to moving in a circle and a line at the same time...which equals what?.....ta dah!....a spiral. So all it really means is a spiral or "twining" type motion. If you look at most of the motions in CLF they are not purely straight or circular they "spiral" out or in. A simple example, Cheong Ahn Chui, a straight attack, spirals out from hip.

Ahhh. . . . . Steal the Eyes Fist.

Gotta love those horizontal pantherfists.