money and wing chun

[IRONMONK]

How much do you pay a month for classes ?
how much do you pay for private lessons?
how much do you think in a year you spend on wing chun(incl seminars classes gradings etc)?

When i first checked out wing chun classes 4 yrs ago monthly payments for 2 x 1.5 hrs classes a week were around £35-£45 a month
However now classes cost a minimum of £70 a month.I understand instructors need to earn money for a living but i have noticed that judo/boxing classes are much cheaper.
My old school used to basically give out gradings just for attending.In a year you could get all 12 student grades without being tested as long as you pay the money.
Also do you think that the reason why wing chun schools dont encourage sparring because they are scared of losing students ?

[roza]

I know ,you are not so much interested in whats outside of USA or GB ,
but just to entertain you:
Here in Czech rep. WT guys pay about 25$ per month ,two days in a week.How much they pay for levels and seminars with his majesty LT,well , I dont know ,I have never been good in high economy :) fun ,sure we all know the stories about the WT castle and red Ferari.....I think,Europe should apologize to America for WW IInd and WTO at least.....l :D

Then ,a little bit more expensive is the school of Jim Fungs instructors ,70$ per month.Brave guy ,opening the school here after 4 years study in Australia.He has a hard times here......

The organisation of Lok Yiu WCH is average in cost ,more then average in what they teach.But its gently becoming to copy EWTO multilevel marketing system.

We have some apostate schools of former EWTO ,like EB or AVSE ,about 15$ per month ,two times a week.Not so much for opening the eyes after all the time...

In the school of my sifu students pay 30 - 45$ per month ,two or four days in a week.We have no fee for levels ,the truth is we use level system short time ,only to be able to recognize the level of skill when meeting guys of French branch ,for example.
I as a older student can come to school anytime .When I have money - I pay ,if I can not ,sifu knows my situation and knows I will pay ASAP - it makes no problem.
When we go to Canton to see sigung ,it costs me about 1400$ for one month TTL,sifu is not making any money on me ,I just pay all my bills by myself.

The most expensive year was 1999 for me - I ve visited sigung two times in this year and paid 1000$ to my sifu for private lessons ,hand on hand- total amount 4000$.

We are not scared and we do sparring with everyone ,not only WT/WCH ,with no problems.

Regards
Roza

[anerlich]

However now classes cost a minimum of £70 a month.I understand instructors need to earn money for a living but i have noticed that judo/boxing classes are much cheaper.

At my academy its about AUD$90 a month, unlimited classes (you could train 3 times a day on workdays and twice a day on weekends if you were crazy enough)

AUD$50 for private lessons.

Judo and boxing might be cheaper, but some BJJ classes are a lot more expensive. You wouldn't get a private from Rickson for less than several hundred USD per hour.


My old school used to basically give out gradings just for attending.In a year you could get all 12 student grades without being tested as long as you pay the money.

Every grade at our academy requires passing a test, and people do occasionally fail. After th first couple of levels, sparring is mandatory to grade. Oh, yeah, gradings are free.


Also do you think that the reason why wing chun schools dont encourage sparring because they are scared of losing students ?

This is a false generalisation. If you don't spar at our school, you will never be graded above the elementary levels.

We went through a really heavy phase of full-contact training with a push by some into BJJ and MMA competition. Student numbers definitely declined noticeably as a result.

The school has redressed the balance now as my instructor feels that the school should have something for everybody, and included health and lifestyle benefits, not just be for those who want to compete or spar full-contact. Even ultra nontraditional schools like Matt Thornton's, and most BJJ academies, understand this.

Some seem to think schools should be "hardcore" and beat the crap out of each other 24/7, but that is impractical and stupid for all sorts of reasons.

[anerlich]

Speaking of money, Samson, is it true you stole some from a karate school?

[anerlich]

Fairly obvious you are the liar here ... and thief too, apparently.

[anerlich]

Well, so much for witty repartee :o

I think people can make there own judgements on who the idiots on this forum are

[Phil Redmond]

Speaking of money, Samson, is it true you stole some from a karate school? Hi Andrew, I've been trying to ignore this guy at the request of Sensei Tim March who runs the Ukiyo Dojo in Warren, MI (http://ukiyodojo.com/) but in Dave Mead's defense I'll have to say, "allegedly". I would never desire to defame someone without proof.
PR

[KPM]

Well, so much for witty repartee :o

I think people can make there own judgements on who the idiots on this forum are


Yes, that's become quite clear over the last two days! Get the hell out of here Mead. You're not wanted!

Keith

[FooFighter]

How much do you pay a month for classes?

I believe in paying for quality and personal investment in yourself is priceless. However I am not rich man yet so the price for monthly classes is relative on who is your instructor, the location of the school, and your commitment and faith in the methodology of the system and is head instructor. I would pay any where from 100-200 dollars a month. I would pay this gladly if the instructor is truly a talented coach and artist. Someone who has seriously and directly studied under a qualified instructor. I would stay clear of seminar trained sifus like I would stay clear from seminar trained medical doctors. If someone who is deeply passionated about helping me understand his art and methodology, then I should help me as much as I can finanically. Moreover, I would not be happy if he simply sat around barking orders or allow his senior students do his job. Sifu Allan Lee has written a great essay about what to look for in a sifu on his site www.wingchunnyc.com. NYC is a pretty expensive city and in truth full time instructors got to make a living. Of course you have to consider the market and business overhead when you consider the monthly rate of the academy.

I have seen good sifus get pay crap which is not good. I have seen bad sifus get pay alot because they had a better business plans. The ideal is a win/win situation. A talented sifu should be pay handsomely while their students should feel they getting more than what they are paying for which mean both sifu and students need to exercise better emotional intelligence and communication. So both parties can be happy. There should be a perfect balance of service and pricing. Good old fashioned American business is based on serving the best product and offering best service and THEN SOME to its customers at reasonable rate UNCONDITIONALLY. If you are not happy for any reason, you should get your first monthly refund back. WE have lost this tradition somewhere in our history and I do not seen many instructors following this business tradition in NYC. WHY? Because it requires hard work and because of FEAR. This tradition keep businesses in check and humble them and support higher customer service. If they
didnt follow this tradition, then people will eventually go elsewhere. You can not blame students for leaving for a better deal. IF YOU ARE SO GREAT, TALENTED, AND EVERYONE IS TEACHING BS, then why are you complaining that you do not have enough? MAYBE these sifus need a reality check and look at themselves and not blame the students. If your school is failing or you aint cutting the bills than it is because you lacked good business habits and social skills plain and simple. Blaming others' weakness and faults is easy, immature, irresponsible, and reactive thinking. Taking accounibility and pointing the sifu finger at yourself is hard, mature, responsible, and PROACTIVE THINKING WHICH IS A SIGN OF A MAN AND NOT A BOY/TEENAGER. It is alot harder in a commerical setting to strike win/win ratio because people cannot adapt and not communicate their needs correctly with emotional intelligence. In the end, martial art business world can be a great thing or a dirty thing. I hope people will find the golden ratio/mean in the end.

How much do you pay for private lessons?

I would pay 100-200 per hour. This is the current rate in private one to one
personal training in NYC. Again this is relative to your market and what the instructor expect for his service and what you expect to get in return. No one should be cheated and everyone should be on the same page. Private lessons should not be how much insider secret tips or building a wealth of technical truths or you can gain disciplineship toward wing chun mastery, but receiving helpful insights and personal attention on your own personal weaknesses and getting practical solutions toward refinement, strength, and flow. For the instructors, this is a great for you to hone your coaching and teaching skills.

How much do you think in a year you spend on wing chun (incl seminars classes gradings etc)?

I have spent a lot of money in attending seminars which are not wing chun related but related to alernative health, fitness, and etc. Maybe last year I spenty about 5K. I also have a huge media and book libary at home on philosophy, medicine, history, fitness, yoga, metaphysics, martial art related subjects; etc. I think I spent 600 dollars on resourses alone in the past year. Constant learning is a good habit to establish mutal understanding and self literary in the physical culture of real world strength and gung fu. It was worth the investment for me because I made it back through what I do for a living.

If money if your concern, then shop around WISELY and spend your money where you feel comfortable. Maybe you can work out a deal with the sifu and work for his academy. I believe the universe is abundant and if we get our whatever we need as long as we have a burning desire and will power do it get it.

[Thaegen]

Money:

Well I for instance don't understand why WT has to be so expensive.
For the moment I train in two WT clubs, probably going to a third.
This gives me this training coverage:
Monday: 19.00 until 20.30 (club1)
Tuesdag: 19.30 until 22.00 (club2)
Thursday: 19.00 until 20.30 (club1)
saturday: 10.30 until 12.30 (club3)
Sunday: 10.30 until 12.30 (club3)

For club 1 I pay 30 euro a month, the teacher is a third technieker grade
for club 2 I pay 55 euro per 3 months; the teacher is a 12 student grade
for club 3: I don't, I will go there begin october.

All my teachers work for a living, so why do they want to make some money out of their, sport, hobby, lifestyle?
Anyway in a couple of years, me and another will open a club, And my students only need to pay like 10 euro a month or something, just to cover for the expense for the hiring of the training place and tribute to the organisation.
Anyone who asks a lot of money for their WT or other MA should be ashamed, you are not a doctor. You are someone who loves his MA, you should do it because you love to learn. Cause teaching is learning.

[couch]

$65.00CAD/month, no uniforms, testing fees, etc for 2 times per week.

After 3 years, you've earned your keep and train for free.

oh and fat lips are of no extra charge. :)

Kenton Sefcik

[FooFighter]

Thaegen,

If you earned your specialized knowledge, have the ability to coach, and are a decent human being, then I do not see the shame of making a wonderful living do what you love. Money should not be the sole center or reason for teaching wing chun gung fu of course, but if you are talented and doing this full time, then I do not see the shame of earning a living from it. Not to insult anyone in particular because I am a proud American capitalist or to cause trouble but doesn't WTO collect $$$ from its WT schools/branches across europe? Should the organisation be ashame? In my opinion, heck no. I aint no hater. The world is abundant and there is plenty for everyone. The William Cheungs, Leung Tings, and the rest of my fellow WC/TWC/WT capitalists go get what is yours.

"oh and fat lips are of no extra charge." Funny Couch.

[AndrewS]

Thaegan,

Amusingly, I am a doctor, 1st TG, classes M630-8, S4-7, Optional sparring in Redondo Beach after 3 mos. Fee- join EBMAS. When I have a consistent 5 guys, I figure I'll charge $30-40 a month , create a separate account, and use it to buy gear and absorb testing and section fees every so often for each member, perhaps based on periods of active training, so you *have* to have X hours consistent work for your organizational costs to be covered. If you want to work outside that timeframe, it's out of your pocket.

All that being said, teaching publically is a huge pain in the *ss. It can be draining as h*ll, and is very demanding if you're passionate about doing it well, especially if you're working a 60-80hr a week job besides.

There are several good reasons for charging more money:

1). You're trying to run your club as a startup business. Realize most successful entrepeneurs have had 8 failed businesses before their successful one, you keep trying, in hopes of being able to do what you love for a living.

1a). Doing what you love for a living you can do it better.
1b). Doing what you love for a living you can further spread the art.

Can you fault someone for doing that honestly and well?

2). What people don't pay for they generally don't respect.

Sad but sometimes true.

And against-

1). What people pay for they generally don't respect.

Such is life,

Andrew

[anerlich]

Anyone who asks a lot of money for their WT or other MA should be ashamed, you are not a doctor. You are someone who loves his MA, you should do it because you love to learn. Cause teaching is learning.

While arguably not delivering value for money is immoral, I see no problem with charging a fair price for solid instruction. Even Chan Wa Soon wanted his thirty pieces of silver (or whatever it was) from Yip Man.

My brother is a starving artist. It's way overrated.

There's no correlation between making a living from something and corruption. Having an income from Ma can mean you can spend more time on developing curricula, and improving your abilities as pratitioner and teacher.

Doing something for love alone means you're forever an amateur, and forever poor. I'd rather go to a professional doctor who does medicine every working day then one who is qualified, but spends all day day trading on the stock exchange.

And as Andrew said working fulltime and having a regular teaching gig can be demanding and thankless.

[PlumDragon]

I work with my wing chun teacher 1-on-1. Hes no master, but he doesnt charge me a dime for my training. I know this is not the norm, but its a datapoint nonetheless...

Some of the best past training Ive ever had came at a very small monetary value. Some of the most expensive places I trained at offered the worst training I can recall.

[Don J]

1 yr 60monthly

Mon-Fri 7:00pm-8:30pm
Sunday 4:00pm-5:30pm

I would consider what i pay is fair , i used to pay 100monthly for Muay Thai at the very first gym i went to and was open only 3days a week. Until i found another Thai gym which charged me 50monthly for 5days a week and became my home :)

[russellsherry]

hi all i also think that location has a lot to do with this as well in sydney rent is higher than melbroune, so i can understand, people chargeing a lot more. One of the reasons though i left ,y first teacher was he not showing up for class once in a while and when he did he just read the racing guide and craped on about horses , if you go to class you should be getting what you pay for peace russellsherry

[YongChun]

Another way to look at it:

Hour Week Month Year
Rent $25 $250 $1,000 $12,000
Advertising $25 $100 $1,200
Insurance $60 $600
Utilities $100 $1,200
Brochures $50 $600
Equipment $83.33 $1,000
Sum $1,393 $16,600

Monthy Fee #students
$20 70
$30 46
$40 35
$50 28
$60 23
$70 20
$80 17
$90 15
$100 14

The equipment costs as well as all the other costs could vary a lot. I didn't include any amounts for wages $30/hour to $90/hour? Then there is one time equipment costs like wooden dummies, poles, knives, TV, VCR, instructional video tapes for students to watch, tea/coffee pot and supplies etc. Some places have a lot of stuff and others have basically nothing and teach out of a garage with advertising by word of mouth. A complete boxing gym with all the equipment and mats would be very expensive and those people would have to charge a lot more in order to survive.

In my Hung style club in Toronto there were maybe dozen students. Tuition was basically free. The club did maybe 5 or 6 lion dances a year which generated maybe $600-$800 each time. That money was used for equipment purchase and for free banquets for the students. A good lion may cost $1,000 and you have a couple of these. The lion dance drums are maybe the same. Then there are lots of kinds of weapons.

In our case we charge $20 month for 1 time a week and $40 for 2 times a week.

When I learned in 1982 I paid $48 / month for twice a week. When I learned in 1976, I paid $50 a month for one lesson a week. When I first joined Hung style in 1969, the fee was $15 a month and later nothing.

A lot of Taekwondo/Karate and other commercial schools charge from $50-$120 per month. One Wing Chun teacher in Vancouver has programs where he charges $5,000 / year. See: http://www.mastercarloslee.shawbiz.ca/courses.htm

There was a Kung Fu club here that charged $1,200 a year for the basic course. If you wanted to belong to the special inner circle club, that would be $1,200 a year more. Then if you wanted to learn the real killing techniques then that would be an additional $1,200 per year.

In some parts of Europe, by the time you finish the complete $15 year Wing Chun program, you have probably paid about $40,000 in learning fees.

If you count going to seminars or getting high quality masters over then that's an additional cost. I think Gary Lam is $1,500 in USA dollars plus travel and hotel.

At one time we didn't have enough people to hold a seminar but a couple of senior students wanted to have one. So the three of us paid $750 each for a seminar.

Even in the expensive case of $40,000, once anyone of those students who graduates decides to teach, then the money spent can easily be earned back.

I think Bruce Lee's fee for the movie stars was $5,000 an hour. When asked: why so much?, he answered: how much is your life worth?

Some people complain about $50 a month while spending much more on smoking, drinking, movies, eating out etc.

I think the rate for a personal trainer is about $90-$120/hour.

My private lesson rate is $40 an hour unless the guy doesn't have that much money or has been around for awhile in which case it's $25 an hour.

When I learned the wooden dummy, that was a separate charge for $500.00. Now when I offer the dummy training for free, most people are not that interested.

A good quality teacher deserves whatever he charges.

If you give something away for free, then often it is not appreciated. Sometimes if you reduce the cost, then the student thinks : great, now I can go and train some martial arts at the other clubs as well.

If a teacher is not into getting rich, then a reasonable thing would be to figure out what income he needs to survive, add the costs on top of this and from that calculate the number of students needed and the monthly cost. The cheapest is to teach out of a garage. The next idea is to teach for a recreation centre who may pay $15 / hour or in some cases split the income on a percentage basis with the teacher. The high end is a luxury gym with all kinds of trainers, special programs, a spa, massage facility, showers, and lots of masters running around-- there is no limit. The cost per year for this might be $40,000 which is equivalent to the amount paid by high class executives to join a fancy golf club.

Ray

[Matrix]

Some of the best past training Ive ever had came at a very small monetary value. Some of the most expensive places I trained at offered the worst training I can recall.How true. It's a bit strange to me how people flock to medicore martial arts schools, but I guess it makes sense in world where fast food is so popular. If you could figure out to teach martial arts in a drive-thru you could make a fortune. ;)


A good quality teacher deserves whatever he charges. In fact they rarely charge enough. Why is that? I think it's because they are passionate about the art, and the money is in a distant second place.

[Ernie]

YC-If you count going to seminars or getting high quality masters over then that's an additional cost. I think Gary Lam is $1,500 in USA dollars plus travel and hotel


nope that's more my lower [small group] rate , Gary will cost a bit more , reason beyond skill is simple he makes more just staying home

when you make X amount on classes on privates every weekend [when most seminars happen]
you have to work in the fact that you will be losing that much when you travel

and my case is different i don't do the class thing only Private Semi private so i'm more on the expensive side :eek: