8-step forms

[Kagero]

How many 8-Step forms or sets are there? I heard there are more then 5 forms in 8-step including the 2 person forms.

[lulusweeps]

Here is what I know:

Seven Hands
Lipi
Small cartwheel
Big cartwheel
Sessions 1-6
Continuous Palm

Hope this helps.

[EarthDragon]

There are a total of 10 as taught by james Shyun although he only teaches the first 5 and young sparrow set for children.

1. Qi sao -7 hands
2. Xiao fan che- small rolling wheel
3. Lipi - power cut
4. Da fan che - large roling wheel
5. Lanjie - intercept

[Forkintheroad]

I previously studied Shuyn style and was only familiar with the 5 named forms, do you know the 5 advanced forms, even if only by name? Also not many videos posted on 8 step. I don't have a camera, and am too far from good to do the forms any justice, but was wondering if any one has any videos they'd be willing to share?

Later,
Forkin Theroad

[mantid1]

I came accross a video for sale by James Shuyn. It is called "Ten body coordinations".

Is this a form in 8 step? If so, is it traditional?

Thanks for any info.

[EarthDragon]

forkin the road,
I've learned only part of the 6th kuen while I was in SF I do have a video of the midget chinese guy doing all 10 forms (cant remember his name) but he turned out to be a spy for another master in taiwan (yes its true) but lost the chinese translations somewhere. but cherrish the video as i have never seen more than the first 5 sets in 8 step.

mantid1, the 10 BC are the first things you learn in our system. you preform the properly and fluidly to obtain your yellow sash.

they are very basic linear drills to co-ordinate the left and right side as well as upper and lower body working together. They are not considered forms. bu take on actual applications in the silver level and useful for fighting in thier own right.

[mantid1]

Do you know if there is a video clip on the net anywhere? I would like to see what they look like. I have heard of similar exercises form other mantis systems and was wondering if they could be connected in some way.

Does any other branches of the 8 step do these exercises?

Thanks

[Forkintheroad]

Wait Wait Wait,
I need more info on this assailant, was he spying for another 8 step school? Was Shyun training him? Was he training with your group when you where training with Shuyn? How long did it take him to learn 10 forms, and how did you get a video of him performing the forms? Is he in any of the pictures on your web site? Or was this something that happened a long time ago, and you heard about it? and almost lastly do any of the forms resemble any the 6 sessions?

I myself am ignorant to these body coordinations, are they 8 step or something brought in, or created recently to help teach 8 step? Do they show up in any of the forms? In either event Can you describe one, as I wonder if I know them, but know then as something else?

Lulusweeps, Do you know all of those forms listed? Or currently train in Ba Bu?

Thank you,
Forkin Theroad

[mantid1]

what are you talking about?

Just a question.

[K.Brazier]

Why is this name used?
It is not a correct translation.
On the Shyun vidtape he says this in English and then follows with the Chinese, "shi lu tan tuei"

If you follow the history that this style is named after Tan Sz temple then we can translate it as 10 roads of tan kicks.

Others use the character for tan which means springy and they translate it as 10 roads of spring(y) kicks.

Wah Lum, the only Mantis style to have actually incorporated Tan Tuei into the Mantis uses the tan character which means "to seek"

BTW, for WL folks I recomend the study of Gung Li chuen for a deeper insight into your art and its roots.


So, Shyun's Chinese is correct.
It is 10 roads of tan tuei-shi lu tan tuei. This version done by Shyun is almost definetly the one brought to Taiwan by Han Chin Tang with variations added by someone else, possibly Shyun himself.

It is important to note that 10 roads of tan tuei is not an 8 Step or a Mantis routine.
Wei Xiao Tang had his equivalent of the 10 roads of Tan Tuei encompassed within 8 roads.
On seeing Wei perform those 8 roads it is immediately apparent that they are Mantis.
Other Mantis branches also have their own roads for beginners, Zhang De Kuei of Mimen Mantis in Taiwan had 7 Roads, Jia Jingting and Li Kun Shan also had their roads.
HK 7* has their 14 roads. In every case, except for 10 roads of Tan Tuei, it is immediately apparent that these are roads for the training of Mantis.

10 roads of Tan Tuei are tradionally used for the training of the cha cheun style and its relatives.

Baji also has its roads of training which are unique to Baji.

So, the question is, does any 8 Step school besides the one in Taiwan still use the original 8 roads of 8 Step?

[RAF]

Seven Hands
Lipi
Small cartwheel
Big cartwheel
Sessions 1-6
Continuous Palm


I also have seen taught Babu Zhai Yao #1 and Babu Zhai Yao #2 and don't really know how Babu Zhao Yao's exist.

We first learned a moving set of 6 application/postures eventually found in some of the forms---there is a 2nd and 3rd set and I am pretty sure they were arranged by Su Yu Zhang and do not link directly into the 8 Step mantis.

I also learned a two man punching-like pushing hands drill that I think came out of the 8 step system.

[mantid1]

Thanks Kevin

Tanu tui. Great.

The "coordinations" in the name is what threw me off. That and I think he is in a "mantis pose" on the front of the tape.

The reason I asked is I know that WL has a ten hands of the mantis basic exercise and was wondering if it had the same roots. It is not even close to the tan tui sets, so now I know this is not the case.


Thanks again

[EarthDragon]

forkin the road,
The guy I am talking about was relocated from taiwan. he was a really short man, almost a midget. He lived with Shyun, did his laundry and various others chores to pay for lessons.i cant remember his name to sabve my life but he was there in the late 80's and one day shyun found a crumpled up note written by this guy to his shrfu that had said he was learning from shyun and had convienced him to teach him the 10 sets of ba bu, as well as the wu style as taught to wei by wu ching chan. After readig the note shyun stopped teaching him the sets and kicked him out of his house.
as for the amount of time to learn the forms i do not know he was there before i joined the ACMAF.
I had recived a copy of the tape from Dean Economos. shyuns only 5th generation shrfu.

the forms themselves have lots of bone breaking jestures, power cuts and ti (front sweeps)

why did you never learn the body cordination? it is the first thing taught in 8 step, yellow sash, you learn to move like this before you are taught the 8's

KEVIN B,
you mentioed the Tan Sz temple, where is this? taiwan? and how does it play into 8 step?
also you said brought by Han Chin Tang, who is this? and what role does he have in 8 step? yo dont consider the cordinations as kuen do you ? i think they aremore just basic linear drills to get you comfotable to move like a martial artist for the average beginner.... thanks for your answers in advance.

[K.Brazier]

Hi Mike,
Han Ching Tang is one of the most well known and respected MArtists of Taiwan.
He was as I recall from memory an instrucor in fighting for the gov and wrote an offical manual which is now a collectors item.
He is as well known if not more so tha Wei.
He is a graduate of NanJing Guoshu Guan, which makes him one of the top MArtists of China pre ww2.

There was footage of him doing his tan tuie on the web a while ago, I don't know where it is. very old BW.

Tan sz temple is unrelated to Mantis
Tan Tuei style is unrelated to MAntis
Han Ching Tang has no role in Mantis

The method of tan tuei is not the Mantis method of teaching.

The Tan Tuei are the most well known and widely practiced style in all of China I think.

Some people do them as 2 man forms, some do not.
Other mantis shools also teach tan tuei to kids and some beginners becuase Mantis movemnet is often too abstract.

For teachers who did not teach tan tuei in their basic mantis curriculum they have their own series of Mantis exercises. Wei had 8 of them, not 10.
Wei's 8 are totally and completely different from tan tuei 10(or12 for some)

[Chizica]

You Posted:


[/QUOTE]For teachers who did not teach tan tuei in their basic mantis curriculum they have their own series of Mantis exercises. Wei had 8 of them, not 10.
Wei's 8 are totally and completely different from tan tuei 10(or12 for some)[/QUOTE]

Would you happen to know what the 8 basics are? Are they listed on GM Wei's website? If so I am completely missing them. If you know them, could you list them in order or PM them to myself or Fork in the Road?

Fork in the Road and I have great interest in anything that relates to Traditional Ba Bu as it comes from GM Wei.

[Michael Dasargo]

In response to:

"The guy I am talking about was relocated from taiwan. he was a really short man, almost a midget. He lived with Shyun, did his laundry and various others chores to pay for lessons.i cant remember his name to sabve my life but he was there in the late 80's and one day shyun found a crumpled up note written by this guy to his shrfu that had said he was learning from shyun and had convienced him to teach him the 10 sets of ba bu, as well as the wu style as taught to wei by wu ching chan. After readig the note shyun stopped teaching him the sets and kicked him out of his house."

Shifu Puyot attempted to respond to this post, however his computer is preventing that from happening. So to relay his response....

In the brief time that Tony Puyot was living with Xun Shifu, he remembers one other Chinese individual who lived at the same place. Shifu Puyot can't remember the guys name, but knows that he did not train regularly with the other students. Could this be the same person?

M.

[K.Brazier]

http://www.babutanglang.com/styles/bb_baxingbu.html

Chizica and Rich,
Hopefully this page will answer your questions.
Here are decriptions of the 8 Steps as written by Wei himself.

The translations are not perfect and I will redo for the whole apge as time allows.

Any comments or constructive criticism is welcome.

Here is the home address

[url]http://www.babutanglang.com

Kevin

[EarthDragon]

Michael desargo,
Dean thinks his name might have been kim or kun or something like that. he was a very short guy almost a midget wore glasses and learned privately from shyun.

he was not enrolled per'se in the regular classes but rather trained with shyun after schol hours.
I dont know thier relationship howver shyun took this guy under his wing as a favor from someone in taiwan and taught him all 10 forms.

whether these are from Wei I have no idea. But after finding the note written by kim/kun to his shrfu in taiwan in the garbage shyun vowed never to trust anyone with the information he was taught.

Then he shortened the 10 to just the first 5 as I have and many others been taught.
I am the only one besides Dean who has a copy of the tape. I have tried to do the forms from watching the tape but as everyone knows you really cant grasp it properly. Also they are speaking chinese through the whole thing, however it was transferred from 8mm so the sound sux.

Kevin, interesting........ could it be that shyun added these to his version of 8 step to make it easier for beginners in the US? are there any versions out there similar? have you sen the 10 body co-ordinations?

I can list them is you like........

[Chizica]

Thank you. I didn't know that the eight "moving steps" as I known them to be called, were also known as the 8 basic movements.


Xie Xie

[Michael Dasargo]

Earth Dragon,

Yes, my Shifu remembers the guys name as "Kin" with an "n". To his knowledge, Kin was American born, and had learned here in the US (as opposed to Taiwan). Kin and my Shifu remembered each other when he arrived at Xun Shifu's place, because they knew each other from previous events/training. Sifu Tony is currently having trouble remembering Kin's other teachers' name.

Back to the subject of the 10 froms, my teacher currently remembers them as

Li Pi
Qi Shou
Xiao Fan Che
Da Fan Che
Tang Lang Shou
Zhai Yao

and a few others I can't recall at this moment. However, the forms on the video of Kin may be similar to the versions that my teacher learned.

Talk soon,
Mike

[Laviathan]

KEVIN B,
you mentioed the Tan Sz temple, where is this? taiwan? and how does it play into 8 step?
also you said brought by Han Chin Tang, who is this? and what role does he have in 8 step? yo dont consider the cordinations as kuen do you ? i think they aremore just basic linear drills to get you comfotable to move like a martial artist for the average beginner.... thanks for your answers in advance.

In addition to Brazier Laoshi's answers:

- The Long Tan Si (Dragon Lake Temple) was situated in Shandong Province, and according to history of certain lineages/schools this where the Ten Roads of Tantui were developed, by the monks of Long Tan Temple.

- Grandmaster Han Qingtang was the Long Fist teacher of Master Adam Hsu, and father-in-law to Master Liang Ji Ci.

[Three Harmonies]

Tanglang Shou is not formally a Babu set, I believe!!?? I think it is grouped either under Qixing (Taiwan style), or Chang CHuan Tanglang. Does Shyun teach it as part of his curriculum? I also noticed in Earth Dragon's list they included Lanjie, which is nto formally a Babu set either.
Just curious.
Jake :cool:

[Michael Dasargo]

Hey Jake,

If I'm not mistaken, Tang Lang Shou is Gao Dao Sheng's creation...and yes, it is included in at least Xun's old list. It would be interesting to put a filter on 8 Step and isolate those sets which truly epitomize the system. The big question is...why so many sets? Are 10 sets necessary? Could an advanced boxer isolate 3 sets and maintain the integrity of the system? That being said, what would most consider the "core sets"? ie...8 Step without the beginner/foundation sets. With 7 Star/Plum Blossom, some people say it's Beng Bu, Lan Jie, Ba Zhou....

Mike

[K.Brazier]

ED,
I have seen Shyun do 10 ten tuei(10 coordinations) on his published vid.
Why he teaches this I do not know. That is his thing.

Since it is probably the most widely practiced set in the world there are many variations.

Laviathan,
Thanks for the clarification!

Tang Lang Shou is Wang Songting's form.
Gao Daosheng was Wang's student.
It is important to note that there is another form called Tang lang Shou that is not widely known. Not from Wei, not from Gao.
It is a 2 person set similar to Pai an but somewhat longer with more kicks and hand methods.

It has been said to me by students of Wei that his most important set was Zhai Yao1st rd.

Maybe not all will agree, but it is an important set in PM with the very useful fighitng techniques.
Infact, if you leanrt only one set, regardless your branch of PM, this is it(my opinion).

Kevin

[Michael Dasargo]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the insight! That piece of information makes a huge impact. I will ask my Sifu if we can compare the version of Tang Lang Shou with others in attempt to investigate why it is included in the list.

Also, thank you for the insight into Zhai Yao. The set seems to encapsulate the the evolved stepping patterns unique to 8 Step. Out of curiosity, are there any notes pertaining to the era in which the Zhai Yao set was created?

Mike

[K.Brazier]

Hi Mike,
So it is clear that Tang Lang Shou is nothis creation, but a form he teaches that he learned from Wang Songting.
It is a popular well known form.
There are aspects of this form that make it similar to the TJPM style of Zhao Zhuxi. Some time I will go into these.

8 Step Zhai Yao is recognizable as the 1st Zhai Yao, but there are some large differences I notice a`on watching that version of the form.

Although people make a big deal of the stepping of 8 step as if it is different from other PM styles it is hard for me to agree.
I have seen the same stepping styles in every branch of PM(except 6 Harmony which I have not studied).
Some emphasize this step over that, but all the steps are there.

Within the old sonnet of PM it goes into explanation of these types of steps in a colorful sort of language.

When Zhai Yao was created I can not say.

It "seems" as though it is a little over 100 years old. Likely made from older version of PM, but who is to say?

There are some old manuscripts which go into extensive detail of the zhai yao forms among other forms and details.
Very similar to WHF published works, but a bit older and unpublished, and therefore still in a state of secrecy.

[EarthDragon]

I just love this board. For no other reason then to delve deeper into the endless information well.

it is interesting the insight and knowledge/information that so many have here. I have learned so much about mantis on this board, I cant even beign to tell you.

I have studied it for little over 16 years and stilll everyday learn more.... hence the the quote in my sig.

so in everyones opinnon what would you say the represents the best kuen flavor of ba bu?
xiao fan che? da? lipi?

do other sets emphasize the stomping like they do in 8 step? and are other mantis styles focused on the footwork perfromed in the sets as much?

[TaichiMantis]

do other sets emphasize the stomping like they do in 8 step? and are other mantis styles focused on the footwork perfromed in the sets as much?

Well for sure, certain places in bung bo...at least in our version. Also, I was told "bung bo" means crushing step...

[Robert Young]

Just want to confirm of what Kevin said from our side.

> So it is clear that Tang Lang Shou is nothis creation, but a form he teaches that
> he learned from Wang Songting.
> It is a popular well known form.
Yes, we have that form too. that also came form GM Wang Songting. It is well know form. Some people also called it Tang Lang Quan, using Quan instead of Sou.


> It "seems" as though it is a little over 100 years old. Likely made from older
> version of PM, but who is to say?
Yes, GM Wang's Seven Star PM also has Zai Yiao. I believe it has two routines. From what I unerstand. Zai Yiao is a coolection of the moves that represent PM flavor the most. That is exactly what the Chiense name Zai Yiao means, the collection of the importants. The forms have been in PM for a long time, definitely more than 100 years old.

Cheers,

[mantis108]

I am in agreement with Kevin on the footwork observations. I believe that the flavor (heavy, light, straight, angle, high frame, low frame, etc..) of the footwork may vary greatly from style to style but the steps' technical components should remain the same otherwise any type of footwork can be liberally qualify as mantis footwork. In that case, why do we even need to discern on distinctive mantis footwork from other systems?

As for the difference between Liuhe's and Meihwa lines footwork, there is perhaps a philosophical split in the approach of teaching mantis that caused the difference IMHO. It would seem that Liuhe was emerging as an innovative fighting style that combines Liuhe Men and Tanglang quan and it focuses on mainly 2 stances (rooster and great ape); while, Meihwa/Taiji adhere to a more traditional approach of Quan Gong He Yi (form and conditioning being one) capitalizes on the full capacity of the 8 stances.

Regarding Bengbu (Crash and Fill), I think it's an interesting form in that it has many innovations on many levels ever since it's debut in Yantai city in the late 1800s. Personally, I believe this is the one form that herolded in the proliferation of Tanglang forms. BTW straightly personal opinion, I do not subcribe to the notion that Bung Bo (the rear legged stomp) is the reason the form is thus named. The technique would be one of the innovations that possibly came from the 7 Star side of things IMHO.

Mantis108

[Oso]

does anyone remember the scan that was posted here a while ago that was said to be 'meihua footwork'?

I just pulled it up as I am going over the first road of Ba Kui (sp?) that Master Shi taught in Tampa last year and it is a meihua set and I remembered I had saved that scan.

I've got it at home and will repost if no one else has it.

It had 3 diagrams on it a 'V' , a 'Z' type pattern and a pattern of 5 dots like the '5' on a normal die with a 6th dot on a tangent off one corner spot.

the first three movements of Ba Kui definitely do a zig zag.

did anyone have a translation of the chinese writing on that page?

[Michael Dasargo]

In regards to Tang Lang Shou:
Thank you for the clarification. I apologize for any ignorance on my part that may have offended others. I deeply appreciate the insight.

In regards to Footowork:
It is difficult for me to agree that there is no difference in footwork. I understand that there are commonalities since we are all within the same family, however I may be confused between stances vs. stepping.

Here's my understanding:
All divisions share the same stances but differ in footwork. It is to my limited knowledge that stepping differs in the timing, momentum, and execution of stepping patterns (meaning the linking movements between stances). Whether the difference is determined by skill or division, I am currently unsure. What I do know is that changes in posture (high frame vs. low frame, straight vs. angle etc.) changes the weight management, and thus changes the intent and momentum of execution. Mass x Acceleration = force. The more bend, the slower the technique, but the more mass is moved. The less the bend. the faster the technique, and mass is moved when the feet leave it's root.

My confusion:
If 8 Step footwork is not unique to 8 Step, then what is the premise behind it's development? Is the 60/40 stances and the jing not determined by how the feet position itself in relation to the opponent? Are the differences in stances not a reflection of the difference in execution?

I hope that we may get together soon to play with the feel of the techniques. I tend to learn more efficiently through drills than through words. Again, I apologize for my ignorance. I am grateful for all opinions and insights.

M.

[Three Harmonies]

Kevin
A little help please. You mention that Tanglang Shou comes from Changchuan Tanglang. Is this the same Tanglang Shou Wutan teaches? I have a chinese book (sorry I cannot translate the authors name, my chinese is Bu hao :o ) that has this set in it, but the book is Qixing Tanglang. As well Yang Shu Ton has told me this set is Qixing, and he mentions on his tape that it is Qixing from Master Li??????? If they mean Li Shu Wen, then someone got confused somewhere. It does not look Qixing-ish to me, but as we all know Qixing (or at least the terminology) on Taiwan is goofy to say the least.
It makes more sense to me that it is Changchuan, since many of the movments are represenative of that system, but I have never been able to get a concrete answer.
Any insight?

Thanks
Jake :cool:

[Three Harmonies]

OH......I guess he could have meant Li Kun Shan eh? Duh! :p
Jake :D

[K.Brazier]

Hi Michael Dasargo,

<<It is difficult for me to agree that there is no difference in footwork.>>

This hard to answer.
You are right. But then again, people interpret the same things differently.
Hopefully we can meet up in person and have a productive discussion.

<< It is to my limited knowledge that stepping differs in the timing, momentum, and execution of stepping patterns (meaning the linking movements between stances).>>

Yes.

<<If 8 Step footwork is not unique to 8 Step, then what is the premise behind it's development? >>

I won't answer this, I hope you don't mind.
I am saying that the steps I see in 8 STep I see elsewhere.
8 Step has a different emphasis.

<<I hope that we may get together soon to play with the feel of the techniques.>>

Sounds like a plan

<< I tend to learn more efficiently through drills than through words. >>


Yes. We have entered a discusion hard to discuss with words alone.

Kevin

[K.Brazier]

Hi Jake,
I did not say Chang Chuan Tang Lang.
To me that implies a recent blending of the two styles.
I don't think that happened in the case of Gao Daosheng's Mantis.

The tang Lang Shou that starts with "right hand snatches eyes" with both feet together.
I have inclosed a picture for you to confirm.
If this is the book you have I suggest you don't anyhting in it as the truth.

This book says that 7 Hands was a creation of Su Yuzhang.
It says that Li Kunshan was a master of 7*.
It says...

This set was taught by Wang Songting to Gao Daosheng aqnd other students of Wang Songting.
It was not taught by Li Kunshan.
Li Kunshan has left behind his own handwritten manuscripts of his style, his fighting and especially his weapon fighting methodology.

Why do Su's students not acknowlege Gao(no need to answer)?

The set is not 7*. It bears little resemblance to 7*.
It has characteristics of Meihua and Taiji PM.
To me this means:
1. a predominance of lou-of gou lou tsai.

Not saying lou is absent in 7*, just that this form uses it more often.

2. when doing backfist it strikes the left palm. Never see this in 7*(I haven't).
3. using the gou(hook) hand for a high block above the head
4. doing folding elbow on one leg instead of hill climbing or minor hill climbing
5. changing direction with each consecutive move( in 1st quarter of the form).

As for any move in this form representing Long fist. I do not see 2 moves in a row that represent longfist as it is popularly taught.
This is definetly debatable, but you see a predominance, about 100%, of Mantis combinations.

[K.Brazier]

Chang Chuan Tang Lang.
I should mention that the name of Gao Daosheng's org is CCTL. For why this is so there is an excellent description on The Mantis Cave.

The pics
1.beng chuei to the left palm. Uncommon in 7*.

2. common in TJPM to throw out the right forearm elbow, apply tou zhan(steal open) and finish with right elbow.
His next move is to step forward and strike with the right elbow.
This is doing tou zhan pan zhou(steal open coiling elbow).
or tou zhan dieh zhou(steal open folding elbow).

3. dieh zhou(folding elbow)
In TJPM and Meihua often done by hopping up onto single leg stance.

These are common characteristics of mei hau and Taiji PM.
Not common in 8 Step, or 7* or 6 harmony

Kevin

[Three Harmonies]

Kevin
Yup thats the one! I never thought it looked like Longfist either, but as you know in the Wutan it is sometimes hard to get a straight answer as to origins of forms and what not.
I agree with all your criticisms, and to wrap up we are unsure of the origins of this set yes?

Thanks
Jake :cool:

[K.Brazier]

Hi Jake,
The history of Tang Lang Shou starts with Wang Songting. Before that no info is avilable.
Maybe Ilya found something in China.

Kevin

[Michael Dasargo]

Hi Kevin,

Sounds good! I'll contact you privately for further details.

Hope all is well,
Mike

[Three Harmonies]

You can't end without talking about the advanced ground form??????????

Thanks
Jake :)

[Three Harmonies]

****IT I could care less, but I do want to know about the groundfighting form, or techniques or whatever, since this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of any such thing in Babu Tanglang!!!!

Thanks
Jake :)

[BeiTangLang]

Apparently somebody deleted my post yesterday because they did not want other to read my story. .


Yes, because it has nothing to do with this post other than its an 8-step story.
I'll start this as another thread o others can continue their discussion without this thread hijack.
~BTL

[Michael Dasargo]

Shifu Puyot is having trouble posting from his work computer.
Below is a message sent to me by Shifu Puyot:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Puyot
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:44 AM
> To: Michael Dasargo (E-mail)
> Subject: Kung Fu Mag Post
>
> Mike,
>
> I tried to post but again it kicked it out. Could you please post this for
> me on the thread about kin and eight step forms.
>
>
>
> I thought I would try to give some clarification on some of the topics
> that have come up. These are my experiences at the time.
> I remember Dean, Robert, Kin and all the others that were there at the
> time.
>
>
> I learned nine forms from Master Sun over a five year period. Around 1990
> I was back in San Diego and commuting to SF to study. On one of these
> trips I noticed that forms had changed. The way I had learned them was
> not the way they were now being taught to the new students. (techniques
> had been changed) I confronted Master Sun about this in a closed door
> session. What he told me was that he did not trust people and had changed
> some of the material. I was very upset and told him I was out of there.
> He promised he would "teach me right". The damage had been done, I could
> not trust what I was learning and walked out. We talk and over the years
> we have had dinner on several occasions. I may not agree with the way
> Master Sun does things in business but he did tech me more about
> application than all my other teachers.
>
> Now for the forms:
> 1. Chi Shou
> 2. Siu Fan CHe
> 3. Lee Pee
> 4. Da Fan Che
> 5. Tang lag Shou
> 6. Lan Jit
> 7. Luen huan Jeung
> 8. Jak Yu
> 9. ?
>
> I do not remember the name of the last two sets. I will try to look at my
> old notes.
>
> As for the ground form. master Sun said it was that last form taught in
> the system. I never saw the form but he did tell me he was the only
> person to learn the set from Master Wei. I remember Su Yu Chang going to
> the school one time. When i asked Sun what he was doing in SF he said he
> was trying to learn the ground form from him. He said said Chang was the
> only other person that had the entire system with the exception of the
> ground form.
>
> Jake, you had asked about any other ground forms. My teacher Steve
> Laurette did study with Chan Sao Chung. The monkey king in Hong Kong. I
> learned the three Pek Kwar hand forms and one ground form (Sai Ping Da
> Tong Kuen) The form consisted of rolling, twisat ups, leg locks with your
> legs and sweeping. I think I could still do the form with the help of my
> notes.
>
>
> On a side note: when ever Sun would do a throw in practice, he would
> always finish the enemy with a Chin Na move on the ground.
>
>
> From back in the day,
>
> Tony P

[LaterthanNever]

Does Zhai Yao(I think I misspelled it)= Young Sparrow form?

Or does Zhai Yao mean something else?

Also,

Does 8 step have the Bung Bo form?

[Three Harmonies]

Zhai Yao is "essentials" essentially. You are thinking of the Hu Yen forms, both Xiao and Da. More characteristic of Long Fist Mantis.
No, Babu does not have a Bung Bu.

Cheers
Jake