Greetings

[The_Sensei]

I would just like to introduce myself to the forums, I train in Leaung Sheungs Classical system. I have been training for almost a year now, so my opinions are of a noob nature.

One thing I would like to say is that I believe in Wing Chun and it's principles. I have been in many street fights before I trained and what I used naturally was very much what Wing Chun trains in.

Also I would like to point out that what I say is only my understanding of things and not my teachers. I speak for myself and no other.

[The_Sensei]

I do not gain the name The Sensei from martial arts, I get it from Mortal Kombat the game, I am a Sensei in that game, so I liked the name and kept it.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I would just like to introduce myself to the forums, I train in Leaung Sheungs Classical system. I have been training for almost a year now, so my opinions are of a noob nature.
Hello, and welcome. :)


One thing I would like to say is that I believe in Wing Chun and it's principles.
Sensei,

What if.......

skepticism and questioning ends up improving your wing chun drastically, while belief or "faith" in it just hinders or slows your progress?

Just something to consider....... (To be honest, this has been my experience.)

-Lawrence

[stonecrusher69]

Welcome sensei...

[sihing]

Hello, and welcome. :)


Sensei,

What if.......

skepticism and questioning ends up improving your wing chun drastically, while belief or "faith" in it just hinders or slows your progress?

Just something to consider....... (To be honest, this has been my experience.)

-Lawrence

Why? Why would you tell someone not to have faith in something? This statement above makes no sense Lawrence. It seems lately all you do now is tell people to LOOK outside their WC to see the real truth, and I have to say IMO this is the wrong advice. It's not about having blinders on and only looking at the WC. I have tons of material on other MA also, and have done tons of investigation regarding other MA, but to have skepticism and a lack of faith regarding what I am learning in my WC, feeling like that of course someone will not be able to make it work in a reality situation. Remember, faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains...

Sensei, keep on training your WC, and do so hard & consistently. It will serve you well if you understand it.


James

P.S. Christ, we get a new guy on here posting, a relative new comer to WC also, and right off the bat were telling him to not have faith in the art, LOL. Sometimes this forum is a real JOKE...

[mexenergy]

Exactly. You must have a solid foundation in your respective art before you can begin to question it. How do you know your belief in the principles is unfounded until you gain enough experience to distinguish the difference. Blind faith is one thing, no faith is another.

[sihing]

Exactly. You must have a solid foundation in your respective art before you can begin to question it. How do you know your belief in the principles is unfounded until you gain enough experience to distinguish the difference. Blind faith is one thing, no faith is another.

Yes, it's not about having a Blind Faith, and never looking at other ways of doing things, that's fine. And I agree with mexenergy, how can you trust your belief's when you have little experience with the art? In my case I said to myself, if I still suck after learning all of it then I would look else where. Well that didn't happen. People of course can go on to learn other MA if they choose to, for their own personal reasons, but the need to do so to "Fill in a Gap" or "Become more combat Effective" as some on this forum believe is necessary, is a false belief IMO.

James

[Airdrawndagger]

Your very right about faith and trust.
How do you expect to become good at something if you dont believe in it?

Im a sales person and there is the cardinal sin in selling and that is "If you dont believe in what you are selling you will not sell it."

This means that if you do not believe in your product then you will lack the confidence to sell it when you are giving your pitch to your prospective clients.

The same can be said for WC. If you do not believe in WC principles, theory, application, etc., how do you expect to have confidence in your own actions when you practice it?
WC and martial arts in general take a long time to develop. Most of us cannot do the "moves" correctly and really understand the underlying principles of our art for a long time as well. It can take months even years to develop.
What is going to be the driving force or motivation to continue us along our journey?
Faith and Belief.
There is nothing else that will take us there.

And lets not try to mince words by saying that im implying "BLIND" faith because that is an extreme that has not been mentioned.
Over analisis, blind faith, over critisism, and over skeptisism are all qualities that can lead anyone astray from what ever there original goal or intention was in the first place.

[Ernie]

Interesting how faith , fact , and fiction are constantly twisted to reinforce delusion
:rolleyes:
fighting is a skill that can measured ,very easily [for those willing to put there faith/belief on the line , to see if there is a foundtion in there faith :p ]
Faith like music is subjective and has no *real* substance beyond hope

were you invest your time and energy is up to you ;)

people worship snakes and have faith they will not be bit ,
to most sane people this is just plain crazy

go figure :cool:

[sihing]

Interesting how faith , fact , and fiction are constantly twisted to reinforce delusion
:rolleyes:
fighting is a skill that can measured ,very easily [for those willing to put there faith/belief on the line , to see if there is a foundtion in there faith :p ]
Faith like music is subjective and has no *real* substance beyond hope

were you invest your time and energy is up to you ;)

people worship snakes and have faith they will not be bit ,
to most sane people this is just plain crazy

go figure :cool:

What is faith to one, is fiction to others, so it is subjective to the individual. And I agree that fighting skill can be measured for the individual, but we are not talking about individuals here, but a art on to and of it self. The same can be said about an art, it too can be measured for combat effectiveness, true? Either Wing Chun as a Martial Art is effective or it isn't, there is no in between. In the end of course it all comes down to the individual being able to apply it when needed, but this applies to every MA out there, so if the art's effectiveness is proven to be higher then the chances of successfully using it in a combat situation are also higher.

James

[Ernie]

What is faith to one, is fiction to others, so it is subjective to the individual. And I agree that fighting skill can be measured for the individual, but we are not talking about individuals here, but a art on to and of it self. The same can be said about an art, it too can be measured for combat effectiveness, true? Either Wing Chun as a Martial Art is effective or it isn't, there is no in between. In the end of course it all comes down to the individual being able to apply it when needed, but this applies to every MA out there, so if the art's effectiveness is proven to be higher then the chances of successfully using it in a combat situation are also higher.

James

James art is subjective
skill is not
it's that simple
WC is a training method to develop /introduce a skill set [not moves not techniques , this is an illusion and a limited path ]

what you do to make use of that skill set is up to you

all the rest of the sifu says junk is for the brainwashed ;)

[sihing]

James art is subjective
skill is not
it's that simple
WC is a training method to develop /introduce a skill set [not moves not techniques , this is an illusion and a limited path ]

what you do to make use of that skill set is up to you

all the rest of the sifu says junk is for the brainwashed ;)

I agree....
Maybe the right word to use with Wing Chun instead of Martial Art is Martial Science? Science is not subjective also, like skill.

James

[Ernie]

and like any good scientific theory it needs to be proven by way of pressure testing .
first mini experiments in the lab [ chi sau/ gor sau/ with in the system ]
this is the first basic trial [but were most stay stuck ]
but then one must take it out to the masses , see how it holds up under uncomfortable situations were there is no preset advantage
[ this is were few go ]
perhaps this what Lawrence was eluding to , to really understand what skills wing Chun training has to offer one must subject themselves to unforeseen/non predictable environments
and in this day and age , going into other proven systems training methods to do research is the best bet next to professional fighting which very few of us will ever do

how far down the road are you willing to go , how much passion do you really have ?
this will directly effect ones deeper understanding of the WC or any other system
this is a personal question , that only the individual can answer .

but this was a hello thread not a moral debate ,

so Hello sensei , my advice trust no one , make them prove themselves , question everything all the time and best of all always do your own research

[marcus_pasram]

Hi,

Maybe the term is confidence, not faith... IMHO proper understanding of Wing Chun theories and the training methods to learn their application will increase your confidence. If your training doesn't address how to improve your confidence then ask your SiFu or look for another school. Don't get caught up in trust me, you'll be great in X years

oh yea - The_sensei - greetings!

[sihing]

I agree also, there has to be a happy medium between theoretical understanding and actual application of that theory, concepts or skill sets (whatever you want to call it). The intensity of one's training has to increase so that you are using your tools in a more random environment. Whether or not you have to go outside of your school or training group to do this is another story. If your training partners is being real and alive with you then you don't, but if your pu$$y footing around then you do. In the end fighting effectively comes down to a few key points, once your tools are sharp and within your neurological system (meaning you do not have to worry about your own reaction and movements). Timing, Distance control, occupying space and perception abilities are key factors that determine your fighting effectiveness

As for not trusting anyone I would not suggest that. Why should anyone trust you Ernie, or myself for that matter? We are giving advice from a internet forum, so how is that more credible than an actual person (teacher, coach) giving instruction to Sensei. Sooner or later the quality of that instruction will show itself and if Sensei is not convinced of it then he can be free to move on. Investigation of everything you learn is good advice IMO, and testing of it also. Something made me trust my Sifu, just like something made you Ernie trust your Sifu at some point in the training/learning cycle. The process involved before one joins a MA school or training group is where one should look for the person promoting themselves for proof of their abilities, not after you join with them and the learning process started.

As for Lawrence's comments, I believe he said what he said was not to have faith in the WC Sensei was learning but to question it, that way he would learn it faster. Bad advice IMO, because to me the opposite is true.

Gotta run to work..more later..

Ciao

James

[Ernie]

I can see the t-shirts now

TRUST ME I"M A CERTIFIED SIFU :D :D

as for me trusting my teacher hell no , i rolled up with some of my MMA buddies and Gary invited me to have a little sparring session [no gloves ] not chi sau
and i tried to nail him , i pulled a few taps off but when he decided to end it , it was over , i was on the ground locked up looking up at a big smiling face

my MMA friends later pulled me side and told me to stay with this guy he was so good the refused to believe he was a wing chun guy since the have eating up wing chun sifu's in the past , for a while they would just go to wc seminars just for the comedy relief :eek:

and to this day i still give gary crap all the time, question him and argue about training methods :D and he loves it !

this is the kind of coach i like to train with but my needs are not the same as all , some like the hookie shaw stuff ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...my MMA friends later pulled me side and told me to stay with this guy he was so good the refused to believe he was a wing chun guy since the have eating up wing chun sifu's in the past , for a while they would just go to wc seminars just for the comedy relief :eek: ...

and to this day i still give gary crap all the time, question him and argue about training methods and he loves it!" :D (Ernie)



***GIVING Gary crap all the time, questioning what he says, and arguing about training methods, and the fact that Gary welcomes all of that - these things show that for Gary - IT'S ABOUT RESULTS.

No McDojo stuff goin' on there. Just a bunch of guys getting together to train, and the "coach" is willing to keep on learning and testing what he already knows - OR ELSE HE WOULDN'T WELCOME THE PUSHBACK ON THE ENVELOPE.

That's a true martial art attitude.

Kudos to Gary and guys like Ernie who train with him.

[Airdrawndagger]

my MMA friends later pulled me side and told me to stay with this guy he was so good the refused to believe he was a wing chun guy since the have eating up wing chun sifu's in the past , for a while they would just go to wc seminars just for the comedy relief :eek:


WOW
they have eatin up wing chun sifus in the past huh?

Pretty bold statement there...

Care to elaborate on this?

Was this at a "Challenge a Wing Chun Sifu" tournament?

[Ernie]

oh scary wc sifu's run for the hills
in my list of things to be scared of in a dark alley - your run of the mill wing Chun Sifu is no were near the top - why ? non realistic training methods , sure there are some good cats out there in every lineage , because might have a clue or just gifted
but walking through your normal paper Sifu is no great achievement

as for elaboration , if you have seen [on video] or had hands on with my boy rob and his guys from the VU camp you would understand

sorry didn't mean to get the panties all bunched up

air-Was this at a "Challenge a Wing Chun Sifu" tournament?
no just seminars over the years , visiting schools , stuff like that , not limited to wing Chun , seen the same bubbles get popped in karate schools ,etc,,,, one of the things they make a habit of doing is seeing whats out there and sparring as much as they can , not always a angry beat down but a test of skills , this is not uncommon outside of the WC bubble , and was very common back in the WC heyday and many sifu's got eaten up then to ;)

but i know i have heard the saying 30% of wing chun can rule the world !!!!!!

[The_Sensei]

Yeah so anyway hi, I guess using faith in my post was a mistake =). I would like to add tho that I am no easy believer of anything especially MA teachers, but I feel I have been lucky to find a source of real wing chun. For those of you who went to the cleveland get together a few months ago (i was not there) you met carl and carl's student brian, well I train under brian and sometimes carl so that can give ya a idea of what my system is like.

So anyway hello and thanks for the FEW greetings =). Peace....

[Matrix]

I can see the t-shirts now

TRUST ME I"M A CERTIFIED SIFU :D :D
You can substitute COACH for SIFU if you like, but the results would be the same. ;)

Also, I don't believe for one second that you don't inherently trust Gary Lam Sifu. However, like a good student, as opposed to a blind follower, you study the lessons and continue to test what is taught. This is as it should be, IMHO.

As for the confidence or faith issue, I think it's almost as important as the art itself. How can you truely have "intent" if you don't have confidence??? What good are principles and techniques and concepts if they are dropped as soon as they are needed outside of the kwoon. There was a recent post which pondered why all arts tend to look like boxing when applied. I think one of the reasons for this is that the person does not truely believe in the art and reverts to instinct when the pressure is on.


You must have a solid foundation in your respective art before you can begin to question it.I don't think you need to have a solid foundation in a given art in order to question it. Why waste time building a foundation in something that is obviously flawed?

P.S. It's nice to see some civil discussion in the forum after the toxic deluge from the the weekend. Thanks to the moderators for claening up the mess. It was like someone told their friends that their parents were away for the weekend and the party went out of control. :rolleyes:

Peace,

[Ernie]

You can substitute COACH for SIFU if you like, but the results would be the same.

--- not really sifu's were silk suits and funny shoes and have belts and grading systems and long titles hahaha

Big daddy Bill !
[[Also, I don't believe for one second that you don't inherently trust Gary Lam Sifu. However, like a good student, as opposed to a blind follower, you study the lessons and continue to test what is taught. This is as it should be, IMHO. ]]]

----- I learned early on to trust no man [completely] when it comes to my well being , I will take the advice of a good coach , I will invest in there training methods , only if I see he has functional skill , not just chi sau , or even worse run in and punch , punch , punch like some chiwawa with punching turrets .

but ultimately I will have to get in front of a not so nice [non wing Chun guy ] to try and make it my own , many live off there teachers [exaggerated stories ] and experiences and claim them to be there own !

thus the saga of the kool aid drinkers continue


Bill-As for the confidence or faith issue, I think it's almost as important as the art itself. How can you truly have "intent" if you don't have confidence???

--- intent can not always be taught , some people just don't have it in them , some fiend on it , but both have to at least try and experience it and control it , this will not come until you face a unfamiliar situation and find it within yourself , until then you are just sampling the feeling or worse confusing anger or uncontrolled emotional waves as intent ,
intent must forged in the face of intent .
you might be able to pull it off in a demo or chi sau or even the occasional interception , but not until you try it , it doesn't work you need to regroup your thoughts and find it again while your swimming in chaos , will you develop real confidence



Bill-What good are principles and techniques and concepts if they are dropped as soon as they are needed outside of the kwoon. There was a recent post which pondered why all arts tend to look like boxing when applied. I think one of the reasons for this is that the person does not truly believe in the art and reverts to instinct when the pressure is on.


---- reality is your always going to $hit yourself to some degree , the more you face that demon [stress over load ] the more chance you have that some figment of fine motor skill will work it's way out , people are animals and react accordingly to shock / pain / fear

the levels of intensity you subject yourself to will , help you develop a deep well
or else it just stays surface skill


he man great chat , good to chew the fat with ya bill !

[Matrix]

sifu's were silk suits and funny shoes and have belts and grading systems and long titles hahaha Sure, in some bad kung fu movies they do. Don't forget the fu manchu. :D

----- I learned early on to trust no man [completely] when it comes to my well being , I will take the advice of a good coach , I will invest in there training methods , only if I see he has functional skill , not just chi sau , or even worse run in and punch , punch , punch like some chiwawa with punching turrets .

***** Trusting oneself is the hardest thing to do, and the most important thing as well. The world's best coach can only do so much. Besides, nobody drinks koolaid anymore, it's Red Bull these days. ;)

--- intent can not always be taught , some people just don't have it in them , .......<snip> intent must forged in the face of intent .
you might be able to pull it off in a demo or chi sau or even the occasional interception , but not until you try it , it doesn't work you need to regroup your thoughts and find it again while your swimming in chaos , will you develop real confidence.

********* Nice said. I could not agree more. Intent can be refined and developed, just as a beam of light can be focused into a laser.


---- reality is your always going to $hit yourself to some degree , the more you face that demon [stress over load ] the more chance you have that some figment of fine motor skill will work it's way out , people are animals and react accordingly to shock / pain / fear

*********Once again, well said. Let's raise the bar...


Always good trading a few words with you, coach.

Peace,

[lawrenceofidaho]

Maybe the term is confidence, not faith...
Right on, Marcus....... :)

Faith is merely given, but confidence has to be earned.

What can give you real confidence? -Testing what you're shown against skilled, vigorously resisting opponents........

The potential problem with "faith" in a martial art is that it just as often occurs with; Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Aikido, and Tai Chi practicioners as it does with Wing Chun folks. -So how do we sort out the people who are "deluded" from the folks who are "seeing clearly"???? -Hmmmmmmm........

Sensei,

sorry about inadvertantly steering your thread into this little debate, it was (sincerely) not my intent. :(

Glad to have you here, regardless. :)

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Be content with a little light, so it be your own. Explore, and explore. Be neither chided nor flattered out of your position of perpetual inquiry. Neither dogmatize, nor accept another's dogmatism. Why should you renounce your right to traverse the star-lit deserts of truth, for the premature comforts of an acre, house, and barn? Truth also has it's roof, and bed, and board. -Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Ultimatewingchun]

Real FAITH is: CONFIDENT EXPECTATION.


Not to be confused with...Pseudo Faith. (ie.- "Well my sifu has had many successful fights using this stuff - so it MUST be really good.")

Confident expectation means that you EXPECT to win due to the confidence you have based upon doing what you firmly believe to be the necessary REALISTIC TRAINING and preparation - and because you have enough self esteem, desire, and will.

[anerlich]

Yeah, Sensei, your thread certainly got hijacked!

A number of Japanese Arts have a concept called Shu, Ha, Ri. Personally, I think this concept lends itself well to anyone undertaking a lifetime of study in a particular craft or discipline.

I am no linguist, but basically:

During Shu, which should be about the first ten years, you follow the rules and the instruction of your teacher.

During Ha, the next ten years, you are ENCOURAGED to break the rules, seek out alternatives and the new, look for weaknesses and falsehoods, etc.

During Ri, you transcend the rules, reconciling the results of your own discoveries with those of history and tradition of the art. Integration.

JKD has a similar progression (I paraphrase due to poor memory):

Stick to the nucleus
Break free of the nucleus
Return to the original freedom

Yes, there is a period of time where you should follow your instructor's direction. After five years of hard training, you should have at least some idea of what you are doing to be able to start evaluating it critically. Since some start teaching around this time, they dam well better have that level of understanding. If you're not ready for this after ten years, either you or your instructor have serious issues or problems, or require a brain transplant.

That said, critical thinking is what stops us becoming slaves and cult members. Don't suspend it just because you've just started an old, and unless you're Chines yourself, exotic, Asian MA with cultural and religious overtones.

Yip Man told his students not to believe him, but to test it out. Good advice there from an impeccable source.

You've probably got another nine years of Shu.