Trouble Using Deflections

[Joseph]

Hey Everyone. This is my first time posting on this board. I am a 1 1/2 year Jun Fan/JKD practitioner. I know there's a JKD forum here, but I figured I'd ask you Wing Chun folk this question. Whenever I perform tan sao to deflect a straight punch, my tan sao always seems weak, and ends up collapsing laterally (e.g., right tan being pushed left). The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm. I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline), but it seems if they throw anything but a wing chun straight punch, it simply will not work. I am only 5' 6" and 135lbs., so maybe the height difference (most of the people i train with are taller) makes a difference? (their strike is usually aimed at my nose) Maybe my angles off? And at what point should you convert tan sao to bil sao instead? Also, I see tan sao very commonly used against slightly rounded punches on the inside of the strike. How does this work so that the punch doesn't just crash your tan sao inwards? How can the tan be strengthened? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Mortal1]

You need to pivot your waste while striking with the other hand. Your tansau should not be pointing at your opponents neck. It should be pointed outward and away. As should some other blocks. This gets your opponent off balance and allows you waste power in your punch.

When you start the block it might point at your opponents neck. Then it should sweep subtly outward.

Let me know how it works.

[45degree fist]

I mainly use a tan sao for clearing space or trying to regain my lines in close range.

I know other people use it as an interception. Ive seen it work sometimes, Ive also seen it fail the same if not more.

maybe your using your tan sao in the wrong place.

I agree with mortal1 about not having it placed at opponent throat or centerline.

It should go lil past their shoulder and your punch should be on their centerline.

[couch]

I recall another thread where a lot of people got into an argument about Tan vs. Biu/Bil Sao against a round punch.

First, and according to "my" family of wing chun, Tan means dispersing. So I mainly use it for the straight punch or a very tight round punch. The elbow guides the motion and pushes the end weapon (open hand in this case) towards my opponent's centreline.

Now, I noticed that you said that it collapses when an opponent is punching with anything other than the straight punch, ie: round punch. I believe this is happening for two reasons...the Tan Sau that you are performing is too much at an angle and is collapsing...I also believe that it might not be used in the right context. If someone with biceps and shoulders as big as your head throws a round punch...even if it's a tight one will collapse the Tan. I don't believe it's meant for this type of defense.

I do however recommend stepping in the cut off the distance and using a Biu/Bil sau type motion. What this will do is stop the attack before it reached maximum power...something the Tan can't do...unless it's stretched WAY out...and the way we do things is that is a no-no because you're breaking structure. Motions can be adapted for the situation, but the structure must remain the same.

Take what I say for what it is and if you think it's poo poo, then so be it!

Kenton Sefcik

[stonecrusher69]

If the tan sao is not working your probably using it wrong as stated.I would have to see how your using it to fix it.Ask your sifu I'm sure he will be able to fix it real fast.Also, you can use fook sao ,or some other technique.

[Joseph]

The sweeping outwards motion, i'll have to try that. We use it in one of our block and counter sets (basically drills of application). We tan sao a lead straight (thrown boxing style, as we live in the west and that's most likely what you'll see) and pak sao the attachment simultaneously hitting (pak da). I know people are supposed to use what works for them, but i figure i couldn't a punch to "work for me" a few years ago. The more I can get to work, the better off I'll be. I'll try using more waist rotation (to increase the difference in angle, I'm assuming). I'll let you all know how it works out. Thanks again!!

[Matrix]

I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline),. More importantly where is your centerline?


The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm. Tan Sao has a range, but I think that based on your description and the fact that you are 5' 6", tells we that you may be going too high. I also think that you need to be more concerned about your elbow ( as opposed to the wrist) and sinking it while driving forward, and less of an upward direction. The fact that your "upper arm' is parallel to the ground seems to indicate this. You have lost your structure. Besides, how can your upper arm be parallel to the ground and your elbow still be 1.5 fist lengths from your body? :confused:
I think you're not using the right tool for the job.

The way to "strengthen" the tan is to maintain the naturely strong structure of the tan sau. Sorry if that sounds circular in nature, but once the structure is broken the strength is lost. It's biomechanics.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Whenever I perform tan sao to deflect a straight punch, my tan sao always seems weak, and ends up collapsing laterally (e.g., right tan being pushed left). The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm. I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline), but it seems if they throw anything but a wing chun straight punch, it simply will not work. I am only 5' 6" and 135lbs., so maybe the height difference (most of the people i train with are taller) makes a difference? (their strike is usually aimed at my nose) Maybe my angles off? And at what point should you convert tan sao to bil sao instead? Also, I see tan sao very commonly used against slightly rounded punches on the inside of the strike. How does this work so that the punch doesn't just crash your tan sao inwards? How can the tan be strengthened? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The picture posted by 45 degree fist illustrates some truly functional angles of the defending arm and counter-punching arm in relation to your opponent (i.e.- defensive arm moving outside of the opponent's shoulder plane while the counter punch blasts the centerline).

There will be a bit of difference between the biu defense, and the tan defense, but experiment with both and see what happens.

Couch,

I am a bit confused by your descriptions....... :confused:

Is there any kind of picture you can post which might help clarify what you are trying to describe (not unlike what 45 degree fist did?)

-Lawrence

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Joseph,
I used to be really concerned with all the angles and exact positions of elbows and wrists but it just got more confusing for me and the whole idea of wing chun is simplicity.

In an ideal situation, you want your punch landing on centre not your blocking/dispersing hand.

I think at first it's great to think about all the specifics of your techniques. That's how we learn what their downfalls or limitations are. But at a certain point, everyone has to remember that the actual point is the punch and I think maybe you should concentrate on landing the punch and you'll do -fill in technique here- properly. Think of the punch and not the techniques as much and that may help things.

J

[Matrix]

I used to be really concerned with all the angles and exact positions of elbows and wrists but it just got more confusing for me and the whole idea of wing chun is simplicity. Like I said, there are ranges of motion, but once you violate the structure of the tan sao, it's weak. You have already developed the sensitivity it takes to know when to change. Joseph does not seem to have that down yet. In the beginning alot of this stuff is confusing. It seems simple and yet there are complexities. We must all struggle through this dicotomy and find it for ourselves. It's more about feeling the specifics of the technique than thinking about them. Thinking too much adds to the confusion. ;)

I hope all is well.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Bill,
All is good.
Haven't been into the club for a while, but if you could pass on my congrats to Dennis for me that'd be cool.
Hope everything is going well on your end.

J

[Airdrawndagger]

If someone is throwing a round punch at my face with their right hand then some times I will bong with my left shifting to my right.
Depending on the energy of the punch I can collapse (a little)my bong bringing him closer for a straight punch to the center or his face.
Or pin the punching hand with my left elbow while punching with my right.

As for bil sau or tan sau- biu sau is better for jamming higher attacks while tan is better for dispersing lower attacks. Tan sau gets weeker the higher you raise it but it is a linear defense so inorder to stop a round attack with a linear defense you need to position the tan so it is deflecting the energy almost head on. Meaning you want to deflect the round punch near the wrist/forarm area with the wrist/forarm of your tan so you turn into the attack with the tan sau.
Alot of times the tan will not be able to handle the power of this type of attack so if you do a tan, you would probably be better off rolling into a bong after you have intercepted the attack.

Another option is to do a higher fook sau inside the elbow of the punching arm. This can also be considered to be a variation of a biu sau.
If someone throws a right round punch I will apply forward energy with a left indoor fook sau to his inside elbow, jamming the punch midway through the attack. You can simutaneously attack the the right hand with your choice of weapon, chop, punch, biljee, elbow, etc...

[negativecr33p]

I dunno. If I were to block a round punch, ideally I would want to shift towards it, tan sao, and punch the dudes face at the same time. If I were blocking a straight boxer's punch I still would shift if I were to use tan.

[wei wu wei]

Tan sao, or any other structure for that matter, arises inadvertently when your attack is thwarted. Your intention is always to hit using the most efficient line. Only when the line is obstructed with your opponent's attempt to counter attack, does your structure change momentarily.

[Matrix]

Hope everything is going well on your end.Hey Jeff, All is well. I'll tell D. that the g-unit offers his condolences..... I mean congraulations. :)

[Matrix]

Tan sao, or any other structure for that matter, arises inadvertently when your attack is thwarted. Why do you say "inadvertently"? To me, inadvertent is the antithesis of intent. I fully intend for the structure to change when the conditions dictate.


Your intention is always to hit using the most efficient line.
My intention is to own the center, the hit will happen at some point from there.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Jeff, All is well. I'll tell D. that the g-unit offers his condolences..... I mean congraulations.

Ha Ha Ha. :D

[Joseph]

I was watching sifu Patrick strong's video last night and using plenty of slow motion on the old VHS. I think i understand the structure more now. I took to practice with me this morning and my technique was fantastic. I'd seen a few of the seniors do it the same way, and I've actually pulled it off doing some light contact sparring (when we spar, we use fingerless grappling gloves, making open-handed techniques applicable). It's hard to explain, but the essence of it was I was pulling the elbow too far into center. I know it sounds crazy, "elbow seeks the centerline" and all, but it's certainly true for my body at least. If i pull my elbow in towards my center line, i can't even hold tan sao for more than 30 seconds without my shoulders burning (and I do try to seal them down). If i let my elbow sink where my body seems to want it to go, i can hold it all day. Heck, I leaned up against a wall sideways with it to try it out, had my partner shove it and such. My body moved on the latter, but my structure held. Just goes to show you everyone really does have their own way within the boundaries of truth.
Also, Matrix, you were right, upper arm parrallel=bad idea, so i've adapted the elbow to sink ****her. Thanks for everyone's help!

[metadragon]

It's tough to make these moves work from Jun Fan structure. With hands held close ( lead hand out, rear hand near face/head or some variation) it really doesn't make a lot of sense to reach for a blow. Covers and elbow shields are quick from this structure and integrate better with slipping, bobbing, etc. Classical arm shapes such as tan, fook, and bong then become incidental things ('oriental cover' or hand up/hand down positions) rather than specific techniques.

That being said, you can still make these things work. Try sidestepping the straight punch and cutting the arm with your tan sao shape. This is important because if you remain in front of your opponent, his punch will either crash straight into your forearm or you will get hit before your tan sao completely forms - trying to 'get around' the punch. Your opponent's forearm will slide/rub against yours and you can then disperse this energy. This is much more practical at close range. At long range, you're trying doing the martial arts equivalent of trying to snatch a fly out of the air with your hand. In this case, you're trying to catch your opponent's shooting fist with your shooting forearm - challenging to say the least. The TWC method accomplishes this with their sidestepping footwork and this sets up the conterstrike with the other hand - the lin sil da everybody talks about.

You can also make this work by crashing the lines. This requires a bit more awareness and is essentially hitting on his preparation. Let's say you read your opponent's left hook. You can then close the distance and hit while covering the punch with your tan sao or bil sao. You attack your opponent's punch with your block, cutting into it as it develops, putting your energy past his shoulder and conversely his energy past yours. This is one of the few times when a passing move is used in TWC. It should be noted that this is NOT EASY. Once again, this works better at close range after you've got his balance going backwards. Then it's a question of countering his counter. From the outside, punches come fast and furious and slipping / covering comes more easily.

Hope you find this useful,

Metadragon

[Matrix]

If i let my elbow sink where my body seems to want it to go, i can hold it all day. Heck, I leaned up against a wall sideways with it to try it out, had my partner shove it and such. My body moved on the latter, but my structure held. Just goes to show you everyone really does have their own way within the boundaries of truth. Joseph,
You're right, it's hard to explain these things sometimes. We are all built a little bit differently so you have to listen to your body tell you where it is strongest within the context of the tan sau (in this case) - which you've done. I'm pleased to hear that it's working for you. :cool:

Keep up the good work.

[Joseph]

Metadragon, what is this sidestepping footwork? Is it a step directly to your own side, or is it angled? Lets say my opponent and I are both in right leads, and he throws a right punch to my nose with a horizontal fist. How would you tan sao this punch? I'm pretty confident in the shape, but now I'm interested in the base that will drive it into my opponent. I've always been fascinated with WC footwork.
I want to try to incorporate it into my JKD. E.G., having the ability to spontaneously transition into the the best suited patterns, especially in trapping range.
Also, considering the same scenario, what is the technique you (or Matrix, or anybody come to think of it) would most prefer to use?
I love to box and work my covers and thai skills, and the kali is good stuff, but the WC element of Jun Fan interests me the most. In fact, I'd probably cross train in TWC if there were a school in Rhode Island.

[Matrix]

Is it a step directly to your own side, or is it angled? Lets say my opponent and I are both in right leads, and he throws a right punch to my nose with a horizontal fist. How would you tan sao this punch? Joseph,
There's always a problem when we get into these what-if situations. There are a lot of variables that can come into play, but having said that I will answer your question to the best of my understanding.

First of all, if you are stepping it's probably best to step at an angle. If a punch is thrown as you described, I would probably jong sau and lap rather than tan sau. But if you want to use tan sau there's nothing wrong with the that. The main point is to make contact (bridge) and respond from what your opponent tells you through his own actions. Is your tan inside or outside of the opponents punching arm? Things like this will dictate your next move.

The reason I did not mention footwork earlier, is that unless you have the proper structure first, then there's no point to add the complexities of shifting and stepping. There is a natural progession that would be recommended to follow.

By the way, if you want to see to top-notch use of hands and feet I highly recommend that you check out Ernie's Site (http://www.wingchuncoach.com/wcvideos.html).

[Liddel]

Ill keep it quick and simple.

Tan Sao like many other actions uses GRAVITY to make a force move away.

You mentioned that your Tan Sao is horizontal to the ground
when it should be rising up so to make the punches force move away from you.

A flat Tan is used in Chi Sao (when you already have contact). But when you are blocking a comming action it must be rising up.

If it doesnt have a sliding line (angle not flat) the punch/force will come to you, which will result in a negitive outcome for you. Like Bong Sao

Also you may be applying the Tan Sao in the right way, Hows your timing.
The perfect positoin will always be comprimised with wrong timing.
And where is your touch point ? this will have a very different effect....


This is just MO. Good Luck.
;)

[Joseph]

Thanks for your replies, they are definitely appreciated. Jeff, my tan is neither horizontal nor is it completely vertical. The elbow is slightly off center, I find it awkward to put it completely on center. The hand is on center, however, so its bent in just a touch. This creates not only a downard angle from hand down to elbow, but also a lateral angle along the forearm to the elbow (the latter is similar to biu/bil sao). Also, I find this position much more comfortable and structurally sound for my body type. As for touch point, i usually aim for a point just beyond the wrist on my opponent's forearm, but against live punches, that's not always possible. If the force is strong, I simply let it flow past the side of my body by rotating with the waist (mind you, his force accomplishes this not on my intention). If I catch it early, I try to crash the line and jam.
The tan structure I use seems to work good out of a JKD guard.
What other touch points and variations are there? How do each of you perform your tan?
And Matrix, excuse my ignorance, but what is jong sau?

[Joseph]

Matrix, I also wanted to add that in I generally tan to the outside of the opponents strike. And that site you linked me to is an excellent resource. Thank you!

[Matrix]

And that site you linked me to is an excellent resource. Thank you!Joseph,
You're welcome, but the real thanks got Ernie. It's his site after all. I'm just a sign post.
And you're right, it is excellent.

Peace,

[snakebyte8]

"What other touch points and variations are there?"

Depends on whether your inside or outside. Inside, I think the ideal starting point is the mid point between the elbow and the hand. Outside, anywhere between the mid point of the forearm and the elbow is good. These are the "safest " places offering the least chance for your opponent to change and turn the tides against you. This is purely from a wing chun chi sao perspective though. Other styles/stylists might not be so co-operative, for instance the kiu's of Tiu (pick up- from inside to outside) and Buot (push aside-from outside to inside) will chew up and spit out tan sao very easily, forcing you again to change to something else.

[Matrix]

The elbow is slightly off center, I find it awkward to put it completely on center. The hand is on center, however, so its bent in just a touch. Hey Joseph,
I don't think it's necessary or even advisable to get your elbow on the center. Maybe it's because I can't do it either. :) I would have to seriously distort my shoulders to do that, and that creates far more problems than it solves. We work on this in our forms.

To make a Jong Sau, simply do Tan Sau and turn the hand 90 degrees.

As for touch points, just be concerned about driving to the center and making a bridge.... one way or the other. ;)

[snakebyte8]

"As for touch points, just be concerned about driving to the center and making a bridge.... one way or the other. "

Isn't that what got him in trouble in the first place? For the sake of clarity, are you talking about driving to "his" center or do you mean the central line between the two motherlines?

[Matrix]

Isn't that what got him in trouble in the first place?
Nope. The elbow was too high.


For the sake of clarity, are you talking about driving to "his" center or do you mean the central line between the two motherlines?I mean driving to the center of mass of the target.

[snakebyte8]

Nope. The elbow was too high.
Sure, if the elbow was high and it was pressing towards the "center of mass of the target" it would easily collapse. We agree. :)


I mean driving to the center of mass of the target.
Ah yes with the fist, of course (silly me) and not the taan. Sorry, I thought you were referring to taan. :o

[Ernie]

Joseph,
You're welcome, but the real thanks got Ernie. It's his site after all. I'm just a sign post.
And you're right, it is excellent.

Peace,
Ahh Shucks , you guys hahaha

hey i don't caught up in technique discussions but i have been trained with the JKD wedge type tan and use of the wing chun concept of tan

different engines , create different issues
this seems to be the core of the problem

but just wanted to say thanks for thumbs up Bill

[Matrix]

Ah yes with the fist, of course (silly me) and not the taan. Sorry, I thought you were referring to taan. :oNo problem.
So you're in T.O. I'll have to check you guys out the next time I'm there. :cool:

[Matrix]

different engines , create different issues
this seems to be the core of the problem Ernie,
Using the right tool for job is key.


but just wanted to say thanks for thumbs up Bill
Well, the props aren't given lightly. Your stuff is good, very good.
Thanks for putting the clips out there.

[Ernie]

Bill
wait till next year , i filmed all the stuff with a torn tendon , arm is slowly comeing back so in a few months i should really be able to express myself , just got back from my first day at my old boxing gym , giveing the wing a trial run :D

speed is back just have to see if i can handle the power

so stay tuned ;)

[Matrix]

wait till next year , i filmed all the stuff with a torn tendon ,...............Ernie,
You're already making me look bad enough when you're injured.


so stay tuned ;) Oh, don't worry, I'll be right here waiting. :D

[Ernie]

Ernie,
You're already making me look bad enough when you're injured.

Oh, don't worry, I'll be right here waiting. :D


No way bro , were under the same banner[well some are on another planet ] , if one of us is doing good it helps everyone .
everyone will have their season and it will fade and some one else will shine :D

Bill on the real , anytime your in La you have an open invitation to train with my guys or sifu Lam ,

I'm sure you will bring your on heat to the table :D

All family bro

peace

[Matrix]

if one of us is doing good it helps everyone .
Ernie,
This is something that I truely believe in. When you give without an expectation of getting something in return you advance the cause for everyone.


Bill on the real , anytime your in La you have an open invitation to train with my guys or sifu Lam ,Be careful........... stranger things have happened. ;)

[snakebyte8]

So you're in T.O. I'll have to check you guys out the next time I'm there.

By all means.
P.M. me and i'll give you directions to our club. Do you come to toronto often? :)

[Matrix]

By all means.
P.M. me and i'll give you directions to our club. Do you come to toronto often? :) A few times a year. I'm in Ottawa, by the way.

[snakebyte8]

Ottawa is nice. Who are you with, John, Walter, Patrick or Paul or did I leave somebody out? (Didn't mean to "limit" your choices)! :D