Question on rank advancement for judo/bjj players

[Oso]

I know that there is some sort of sparring/fighting component to rank advancement within both disciplines.

Would someone spell it out for me? As in, how many matches you have to win or how many times you have to be succesful in rolling with senior students.

Contemplating something like that for my school.

TIA

Matt

[truewrestler]

There is no competition requirement in BJJ. Advancement in BJJ is based on your skill compared to the next belt level. When you start tapping the next belt level often and infrequently get tapped by your current belt level then it is time for you to be promoted. There are sometimes other requirements such as self-defense techniques or other formatilities but primarily it is your level of skill in sparring. Competition can speed up the process of promotion but in the end it is based on skill level.

I think there is a competition requirement in certain Judo associations but not all.

I know ShaolinTigger can answer this for you but I think he is in the barn right now roughing up some farm boys :p

[Oso]

Thanks.

I'm having a bit of a conundrum.

I want to teach full time. So, I want my school to grow. Right now I have 16 students and only 2 or 3 really interested in fighting. The rest want to do forms and some self defense but not sparring.

I currently have 3 sparring specific nights (I used to have it once a week but cut back due to obvious lack of interest). The last Thursday of the month for beginner's class and the 2nd and last wednesday for intermediate and above. The last couple of months attendance has fallen on those nights to just the few that want to spar.

So, I'm contemplating taking sparring out of the regular curriculum classes and having a separate time for that. I'm also contemplating some way of recognizing those that want to spar versus those that don't...a different t-shirt color maybe...and making it a requirement to to spar at each rank advancement to earn the recognition.

My personal belief is that if you take the fighting out of it then you aren't really doing anything but dancing. So, somehow I need to figure out how to propagate the growth of my school and cater to those that just want exercise or whatever yet still attract and retain people that want the fighting aspect.

just exploring ideas and the competition aspect (whether at a tourney or with senior students) popped into my head.

[MasterKiller]

My personal belief is that if you take the fighting out of it then you aren't really doing anything but dancing. You can drill partnered techniques without free sparring, and that's far from "dancing." You still get live training, just minus the freestyle environment of a sparring match. I would certainly make the forms people drill throws, locks, etc...

While it's limited, it's still better than just doing forms all night.

My MMA club works out in a Karate dojo 3 days a week. The Karate school has about 70 students. We have 6 regular MMA guys.

Phrost (from Bullshido) will tell you that the ninjistu program at his school keeps the MMA program up and running.

That's the way the ball bounces in a TMA school. Most of the people there are not there to learn to fight, no matter what they say to the contrary.

[truewrestler]

Oso,

Many schools have fight team classes or some other name for sparring and fight specific classes. It sounds like that is necessary. Also, sparring in grappling and sparring in striking is completely different for obvious reasons.

The gym I currently train at has levels of classes in Thai Boxing that students can progress through with rising levels of techniques and conditioning. The students that spar and the ones that do not both take part in the padwork and conditioning classes but there is also aditional fight team/sparring classes on certain nights of the week.

In grappling/jiu-jitsu however it is all mixed together for technique, conditioning and sparring. I know some schools (and i'm sure mine in the future) have grappling competition team practices with extra conditioning and competition specific work.

I hope that helps

[ShaolinTiger00]

In judo you can go 2 routes. as a competitor and a non competitor.

the competitor must accumulate points via wins in competition to advance as well as take a written test and a demonstration of techniques.

it starts out with 3 points and goes higher each rank ex. 5 pts. 7 pts. 10 pts.

a non competitor doesn't require points but must score higher in demonstration and must perform 2 person kata sets. (essentially a syllabus of techniques).

that's it in a nutshell. you can also get points for service ex- assistant instructors, working at a tournamanet etc.. but this is usually stuff non comps do.

[Oso]

MK, I agree. I didn't think to state it but Pong Lai is all two person stuff. We of course have just arm drills but all our sets, starting with our tan tui line drills, has a ling side. That can not be taken out of the curriculum or it's not Pong Lai. I've already come up with a program to introduce new students to the arm drills with out too much bruising in the beginning. I had a new girl about 5 months ago who really didn't like the pain associated with the arm drills but now she stinks of jow like the rest of us.

My curriculum is well rounded, IMO. There are SD drills and chin na flow drills. I teach two ground flow drills: one I learned at a BJJ seminar and the other taught to me by my jujitsu teacher. I also teach Osoto Gari and Uchi Mata when I teach the 'kung fu' throws we have that are the same to give perspective. I also teach what I know of arnis occasionally.

That's the way the ball bounces in a TMA school. Most of the people there are not there to learn to fight, no matter what they say to the contrary.

Too true. What I'm trying to figure out is how to keep them, still do pong lai and generate some fighters as well. And make the forms folks still think they are doing something valuable and worthwhile...and not ever be acused of running a McDojo. ;)

[Oso]

truewrestler, it does, thanks. I do have my own space so I can set up whatever schedule I can handle as the teacher...right now I'm running 3 hours of classes mon-thur, sometimes a friday night sparring night, and 2 hours every sat....some weeks are long as hell on top of the 40-45 hour day job....

ST00: That's great info. Thanks.

That's exactly where my mind has turned as far as dilineating those that do and those that don't want to. I'd be interested in the psychology of how it works out for the non competitors. One of the problems I have is the ego of the people that aren't wanting to fight is being affected somewhat because they are seeing the people who are fighting progress quicker in their understanding of the material.



I'll be talking with my jujitsu teacher as well. He has been a great mentor and has been running a commercial school for 20+ years here with a definite 'for the masses' program but also has an extremely talented team of black belts that I have sparred with on numerous occasions and they are no slouches (rubs bruised rib).

[SevenStar]

In judo you can go 2 routes. as a competitor and a non competitor.

the competitor must accumulate points via wins in competition to advance as well as take a written test and a demonstration of techniques.

it starts out with 3 points and goes higher each rank ex. 5 pts. 7 pts. 10 pts.

a non competitor doesn't require points but must score higher in demonstration and must perform 2 person kata sets. (essentially a syllabus of techniques).

that's it in a nutshell. you can also get points for service ex- assistant instructors, working at a tournamanet etc.. but this is usually stuff non comps do.


What he said. To add to the competitor portion, the player scores more points if he defeats someone of a higher rank. If you are a green belt, for example and defeat another green belt, it's typical. you will earn more points, however, if you defeat a brown or black belt.

[MasterKiller]

What he said. To add to the competitor portion, the player scores more points if he defeats someone of a higher rank. If you are a green belt, for example and defeat another green belt, it's typical. you will earn more points, however, if you defeat a brown or black belt.

How does the dungeon master decide how many experience points to award? Is it different from club to club or set in the competition rules of Judo?

[SevenStar]

Thanks.

I'm having a bit of a conundrum.

I want to teach full time. So, I want my school to grow. Right now I have 16 students and only 2 or 3 really interested in fighting. The rest want to do forms and some self defense but not sparring.

I currently have 3 sparring specific nights (I used to have it once a week but cut back due to obvious lack of interest). The last Thursday of the month for beginner's class and the 2nd and last wednesday for intermediate and above. The last couple of months attendance has fallen on those nights to just the few that want to spar.

So, I'm contemplating taking sparring out of the regular curriculum classes and having a separate time for that. I'm also contemplating some way of recognizing those that want to spar versus those that don't...a different t-shirt color maybe...and making it a requirement to to spar at each rank advancement to earn the recognition.

My personal belief is that if you take the fighting out of it then you aren't really doing anything but dancing. So, somehow I need to figure out how to propagate the growth of my school and cater to those that just want exercise or whatever yet still attract and retain people that want the fighting aspect.

just exploring ideas and the competition aspect (whether at a tourney or with senior students) popped into my head.


I completely agree. I would make sparring a requirement, but keep competition optional. In judo, IME, whether you compete or not, you WILL randori. it's part of almost every class. sparring can take away from class learning time though, so having a sparring night is also a good idea. I would make it known to my students though that they will have to spar in order to advance, so they know that they need to get some time in.

ANother option is something they did at my old longfist school - sparring night was a surprise. When we had a set night, certain people wouldn't show, as they didn't want to spar. So we would come in and he'd be like "okay, tonight is sparring night!" and he kept it variable, so they never knew which night we would spar.

[mantis108]

I pretty much use the I method (Introduction, Isolation, and Integration) for my classes now.

I combine warm ups and introduction of techniques in drills that are fun to do with the H.I.I.T. principle. This would be done for the first 30 - 45 mins. Then we will do specific techniques from stand up, clinch and ground. These techniques will be all tied together at the integration phase which is near the end of the class. At that phase we usually start with sparring on the knee for closed quarter and grappling. We also do stand up sparring. I find that students don't mind doing sparring as long as you don't mention the word but have them do it. Once I mention sparring, some students would immediately got worried. But they have no problem if that is not mention. So at the last 45 mins or half hour of the class I will pick at random to face them off. I will usually let the loser to stay in so that they get more time to polish their game. BTW, you can throw in the concepts of pace, pressure, purpose (or position if you are grappling.) Remeber you are incharge and this is your club. They paid you to take charge. So they must follow what you deem fit or they could just leave. I think people in MA understand and actually would look for a strong leadership. So... If they do what you envisioned, then it should be a win win situation.

For example, you can teach Ponglai's black tiger steal heart drill which basically is cross, low jab and uppercut combo and add in taking the back with a harness takedown ending with a rear naked choke or any number of finishes that you like. You can drill all the components on the knee and go at a 50% - 75% pace (or lower if need be) first for isolation . Then during the integration phase tell them to do their best with the same moves and both of them try to get it done to the partner first who will be resisting at best he can and try to apply the same move as well. Clock them if you see fit (18 sec to 45 sec from start to finish is good). They would on their feet by now of course. You have gloves and mats, so this is pretty safe to do at even 80% to full pace and not dancing at all.

The only thing is that usually the first skill set or the first technique that is introduced will stuck with them for a longtime to come. So do chose your material carefully to make sure you anchor your material well with the first technique. For me it's the double underhook and the body lock in the clinch.

This type of format is nothing new but it's quite easily ease those who are not interested in sparring into sparring because it's quite user friendly IMHO. ;) BTW, I sometime just walk up to some of them usually teenagers and start harrassing them till they will use whatever they know to get the better of me.

Just sharing some thoughts.

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

How does the dungeon master decide how many experience points to award? Is it different from club to club or set in the competition rules of Judo?


I'm pretty sure it's set by the association, since they are the ones who dictate how many points you need in order to be elligible for promotion.

[Oso]

For example, you can teach Ponglai's black tiger steal heart drill which basically is cross, low jab and uppercut combo and add in taking the back with a harness takedown ending with a rear naked choke or any number of finishes that you like. You can drill all the components on the knee and go at a 50% - 75% pace (or lower if need be) first for isolation . Then during the integration phase tell them to do their best with the same moves and both of them try to get it done to the partner first who will be resisting at best he can and try to apply the same move as well. Clock them if you see fit (18 sec to 45 sec from start to finish is good). They would on their feet by now of course. You have gloves and mats, so this is pretty safe to do at even 80% to full pace and not dancing at all.

funny, I teach all those option after the striking portion of that drill. ;)

and, I swear, you seem to know as much pong lai as I do......

thanks for all the responses guys. the bottom line right now is I see a couple of students wavering on quitting and right now, two students leaving will close my doors. so, trying to figure some things out.

work calls, i'll have to check back later to respond in a little more detail.

[mantis108]

You'd be right, my friend. LOL... In the eleven days that Kevin came to visit me in 2002. I was told that I clamed down 3 years of Ponglai material. So....

I am sure you know all the stuff that I was talking about. It's just to reinforce that your chosen path and the idea to carry it out is not off the mark at all. You might want to find a way to make it more attractive but essentially the goods are there. So keep up the good work. You are not alone. ;)

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

LOL...yea, but in a very short period of time Kevin will be just 9 hours from me.

that BTSH drill is one of my favorite and Shifu John had us doing a great drill that started with the feng/sealing backfist, the hook and then a leg kick to the thigh.
I've added a back heel trip after the leg kick as a follow up in case the leg kick doesn't knock them down.


back to work...bad Matt, bad Matt.....

[ShaolinTiger00]

MK, In the USJF, the promotion board is amde up of a group of senior judoka of that region. (Ex. mid-altantic) no one in your school can promote you.

this is important for rank standards & quality imho, as everyone must comply to the same sets of requirements.

Oso, - the psych? well.. as you can imagine most young men and women are competitors in judo (participation in tournaments is encouraged in every school.) this is part of what makes judo so great. competition and sparring is a daily reality. testing yourself and pushing yourself are important to your mental welfare.

But the reality is that not everyone is a competitor. and this transcends thru martial arts and life.

but that doesn't mena that they can't do the techniques, and that they can't support and contribute to the betterment of the art, and they should not be overlooked.

[MasterKiller]

ST00-
Is that for everyone? One of the guys I trained with (before he got sent to Iraq) was a member of the local Judo club, and he said the teacher there could rank people. Is this Judo teacher not following protocol, or is he just possibly not part of the USJF?

[ShaolinTiger00]

the later.

USJI can promote "in school".

USJI had a shady history in the past of "buying rank" etc.. but there is also a mentality that says if an 6th dan sensei says you're x rank, we'll then..

I don't really care myself. I care about performance.

[Oso]

Oso, - the psych? well.. as you can imagine most young men and women are competitors in judo (participation in tournaments is encouraged in every school.) this is part of what makes judo so great. competition and sparring is a daily reality. testing yourself and pushing yourself are important to your mental welfare.

Agreed. You know, what I'm battling is the 'mystique' aspect of kung fu. I've been teaching now in town for a bit over 4 year and been in a storefront w/ huge street presence. I've barely managed to get 16-17 students. I feel it's because people walk in to check class out and they see pushups and hindus and bruises and sweat. The don't see frog tops and until 3 months ago, no rank on anyone, even me. So, I think I bust a lot of peoples bubbles on what they think 'kung fu' is.

But the reality is that not everyone is a competitor. and this transcends thru martial arts and life.

but that doesn't mena that they can't do the techniques, and that they can't support and contribute to the betterment of the art, and they should not be overlooked.

I agree as well and I don't want to overlook them. that's why this thread.

thanks.

[MasterKiller]

I feel it's because people walk in to check class out and they see pushups and hindus and bruises and sweat. The don't see frog tops and until 3 months ago, no rank on anyone, even me. So, I think I bust a lot of peoples bubbles on what they think 'kung fu' is.

I don't know if that's a pure kung fu problem. It's a TMA issue.

My MMA program is free. It costs $0 for 3 classes/week because the Karate school gives the guy fronting the program free mat space so they can advertise that they have an MMA/jiu-jitsu program.

So, for $0/month, we still get 6 or 7 regular students. There are several others that wander in and out, but for the most part, it's the same 6 guys. But, people come in and see no rank on anyone (shorts, 4 oz gloves, bodyarmor/rashguard is the standard uniform :D ), bruises, and sweat...and then they see the Karate guys in their gis with patches, multi-striped belts, and sparring with foam pads and face cages for $60/month...well, like I said. They have close to 70 students.

I never, ever puked at Kung Fu. I puke at least twice/month doing MMA....

[mantis108]

Hi Matt,

The kick applies to the inside of the thigh right? If so, I think it is Beng Chui Bi Men Jiao (crashing punch close door kick). Your following move (Deng Ta) is good.

Speaking of uniform, I finally broke my piggy bank and bought a BJJ gi (comes with a white belt) and had my club logo sew on it. Pretty interesting looking gi with a mantis logo, lol.. I decided to use the gi for handles and chokes in conjunction with the t-shirt for uniform. I will keep using the Wushu belt (with tassels) instead of the gi belt. So IMHO there are ways to get the cool effects for those "paying" customers but maintaining the Kung Fu identity. ;)

Another thing that you can look at is adopting some non attribute base SD programs for those who are not really in for the hardcore training but looking for an " insurance policy". BTW, do you have open house events? It might help getting more publicity.

Warm regards

Robert

PS I am looking forward for Kevin's return to the states as well. :)

[Oso]

MK, i agree on it not just being a 'kung fu' problem...that's just what I do and so the word choice.

Sadly, guaranteeing that you'll make someone puke generally won't fill your classes. I've puked in kung fu, wrestling and jujitsu...don't like it at all but there is a satisfaction knowing you've pushed yourself past the simple pain to that.


M108, no it's to the outside of the thigh. IF you are right lead to right lead the lead hand seals their lead hand into their face and follow up w/ the hook w/ the rear hand and then a round kick to their leg with your rear leg.

When I add the rear trip I assume that I've screwed it up or they defended and I've ended up either in a clinch or I go ahead and clinch and take the leg that landed forward after the kick and pick their heel and lean into them.


I have decided to outfit us in a frog top for the tourney we are going to in Nov. Going with Jonie's 3/4 sleeve black w/ green trim and we're all going to wear green sashes.

I've actually got 7 of my students competing in forms and continuous sparring and gonna do forms comps myself for the first time. :eek:

[PaiLumDreamer]

Didnt read the entire thing...so if it was already stated, sorry.

Anyway. In our school, we are required to spar so many times per rank, increasing each rank.

We only have that required number for just the same reason...some people dont like fighting, but its part of the art. You dont have to bang with the big guys...but you do have to get out there.

Lets say...for a beginner...they have to spar 10-20 matches. That could be done in a month or two. (We spar once a week. Sometimes more on weekends for people who just like to fight :P)

By making it REQUIRED, they still can represent their style if they had to instead of just being able to run through a form all nice and pretty.

There are always exceptions, of course. Some people will refuse to fight. IMO, they are doing the wrong sport...but if you are wanting to expand and run it like a BUSINESS...its hard to keep people if they arent getting what they want :P

But...you should still stick the required sparring on there. If they REALLY have a problem with it they will come to talk to you...otherwise that might be the little push they need to actually get into the ring.

My 2 cents. :D

[Oso]

Thanks, PLD. I know it should be a requirement but at the moment it really isn't. I've got a 51 year old woman who can be scrappy as hell...but is aging and her bones/ligaments aren't able to take it....so, I don't make her. Otherwise, she works hard at trying to learn and do things properly.

Had a few ideas gel last night. Will take a while to get them down on paper but will post once I do.

Thanks everyone for their input....lot's of help.

Big help from Ming Yue who reminded me of something I used to teach as a bridge between forms and sparring but stopped when I got with Pong Lai and we became inundated with so much new information.

[MasterKiller]

I don't think sparring should be a requirement to attend class.

Sparring should be a requirement to advance in rank, though.

[Oso]

ok, i'll bite, how will thay advance if they don't spar in class?

keep teaching them stuff while they are a white or yellow sash?

[MasterKiller]

You can keep teaching forms and techniques without advancing their rank. During my first few years, I had plenty of classmates that knew more forms than me, but I eventually outranked them because they never tested and I didn't stray from the testing curriculum and kept advancing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Most of those people had good clean forms and represented well. They couldn't fight, but then again, they didn't really want to.

Not everyone cares about rank or position. The people that don't want to spar IME are never going to spar hard anyway, even if you make them strap on pads, but you might as well let them keep learning new material to keep them interested in coming to class.

Some of them will be motivated to spar because they want to advance. Some of them will quit because they aren't advancing like others. But really, the people who leave probably would have left within a year anyway.

[Oso]

i agree that people don't have to spar if they don't want to.

what I'm trying to figure out is how to do both and recognize the people in the school for wanting to learn to spar (i'm also not talking about competition sparring as a necessity, just in school sparring) and not make the people who don't want to spar feel bad because they don't.

IF rank designation by sash/belt/whatever is the method in the school for advancement and demonstration of learned skill then I don't think it's fair to the people who are working harder to figure out the fighting element to be have someone who isn't wearing the same rank.

I'm working on something like ST00's example that non-comp judo players have to demo better and complete an element of training that the competitor track don't have to. That seems fair to me and Ming Yue helped with the answer to that last night....when I get it laid out I'll post it for criticism.

[SevenStar]

the later.

USJI can promote "in school".

USJI had a shady history in the past of "buying rank" etc.. but there is also a mentality that says if an 6th dan sensei says you're x rank, we'll then..

I don't really care myself. I care about performance.


Where I am, the JI can promote in school, but only to brown belt. In order to get your black, you must go before the board.

[SevenStar]

i agree that people don't have to spar if they don't want to.

what I'm trying to figure out is how to do both and recognize the people in the school for wanting to learn to spar (i'm also not talking about competition sparring as a necessity, just in school sparring) and not make the people who don't want to spar feel bad because they don't.

IF rank designation by sash/belt/whatever is the method in the school for advancement and demonstration of learned skill then I don't think it's fair to the people who are working harder to figure out the fighting element to be have someone who isn't wearing the same rank.

I'm working on something like ST00's example that non-comp judo players have to demo better and complete an element of training that the competitor track don't have to. That seems fair to me and Ming Yue helped with the answer to that last night....when I get it laid out I'll post it for criticism.

I've heard of thai boxing schools that have ranking structure and assign 'honorary' ranks to the guys who compete - they get an extra designation that the non-competitors don't. Perhaps you could do something similar. for example a blue sash that didn't spar only wore a blue sash. a blue sash that does wears an entwined blue and yellow sash.

[Oso]

I've heard of thai boxing schools that have ranking structure and assign 'honorary' ranks to the guys who compete - they get an extra designation that the non-competitors don't. Perhaps you could do something similar. for example a blue sash that didn't spar only wore a blue sash. a blue sash that does wears an entwined blue and yellow sash.

right. Jonie's will do custom work.

simpler might be the 'fighter's' tshirt.



I'm still concerned with keeping the non sparrer's ego up though...I should have the idea structured by the end of the week.