Need help for what martial art to do next.

[Slade]

I am currently a black sash in William Chuengs style of Wing Chun kung fu but I am going into the army in 6 months and will be posted at one barracks for just over 1 year about 13 months and will have to quit Wing Chun and I want to start another martial art. I have surveyed the area I am moving to and found some potential martial arts I can do


Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/
5 Animals Style Shaolin Kung Fu (Looks slightly dodgey, the teacher is a rather fat *******) http://www.shaolin.com.au/
Hok Se Tong Long (some mix between crane snake and mantis. apparently a southern internal style) http://www.auskungfu.com/
MMA (Place that does Krav Maga, Muay Thai, Jujitsu, Judo) http://www.hangar4.com.au


From what I can tell for sure the Choy lay fut school has proper lineage and im really interested in that, except I know ill be moving in 13 months so im only gonna get a years worth of training in it, what one do you's think would be worth doing for a year. I know in a year ill pick up ALOT in MMA in a year.
Maybe someone can tell me how dodgey lineage is that 5 Animal shaolin school is also. same goes for the Hok se Tong long place who I have seen fight at a tournament I went to with my current school which they did full contact with us so they seem to train well at least dunno about linage.

[sean_stonehart]

Go Buk Sing... good stuff & doesn't take forever to learn good skills!

Besides think of the fights you can have with yourself between WC & CLF!!!! :eek: :D

[truewrestler]

4 but I am biased

[Slade]

How much would I learn in one year of Buk Sing? I am a 5 days a week man and like 16 hours a week man ATM when it comes to training.

[Oso]

http://www.shaolin.com.au/curricu.htm

multiple use of the word 'secret' pretty much says it all.


you've already answered your own question. If you are probably going to return to wing chun after your military stint then everything you will learn in the MMA school will just benefit you in any other style you do.

besides, I saw a grille and a deck on the front of the bjj school...if that doesn't say 'beer and burgers' after a hard work out then I don't know what does. :)

[MightyB]

With only 16 months to train, I'd say go to Hangar 4. You'll be able to cram alot of good-practical stuff in that amount of time with the MMA that will stick with you for the rest of your life. What you'll find is that the techniques of BJJ, Thai Boxing, and Krav will fit into the philosophies and concepts that you've already learned in WC. It'll only make your kung fu that much better when you get out.

If you go to a MMA gym, remember this mantra, "The more you sweat, the less you'll bleed".

[ShaolinTiger00]

4.

There is no decision to make. :D

[MightyB]

Seriously...

I have a major-huge-extremely-major problem with people calling themselves Sijo. Don't even humor those "shaolin" arse clowns by checking out their "school".

[Mortal1]

3 might have some things in common with wingchun.

4 again good wholesome practical training. Come back and take down and submit your fellow wingchunners!

[TonyM.]

1. First choice if you want to expand on CMA principles.
2. Good place for dating and challenges.
3. Too commercial.
4. Good choice for a beginner.

[Shaolindynasty]

I'd go with the choy lay fut. You can learn a fare amount in limited time and it's cool :cool:

[David Jamieson]

1 or 4.

1 if you wanna train some clf.

4 if you wanna mix it up on the mat.

those would be my choices if put to it.

[Slade]

Im thinking I might just try 1 and 4 see what I think of each then pick the one I like best.

[Oso]

that's what matters most.

the mma gym looked pretty sweet. let us know how it is.

[Slade]

Wont know for 3 months, thats when im moving to base then Ill go visit it :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

4. You can test your WC in live fire practice right away in a sincere enviornment - at least if it is like MMA schools I've visited. Build off your base.

[SimonM]

Go with 1 or 4. Stay away from the "shaolin" school. It don't look too good.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

how about refining your skills by taking up open hand vs. various weapon forms? it'll at least teach you how not to use a weapon improperly... :cool:

[SimonM]

Uh... YZDZ... I generally avoid being a grammar cop but why not just say "how to use a weapon properly". Double negatives make my marking fingers itch. :p Also which school are you advocating exactly?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

4. You can test your WC in live fire practice right away in a sincere enviornment - at least if it is like MMA schools I've visited. Build off your base.

(ooh, where'd that kid go?) and combine that with iron shirt /iron palm training and some hot lead... :cool:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Uh... YZDZ... I generally avoid being a grammar cop but why not just say "how to use a weapon properly". Double negatives make my marking fingers itch. :p Also which school are you advocating exactly?

ooooh! nicely done, sir. i did seem to brain **** didn't i? use or ommision of double negatives is merely a stylistic indication. it would definately be an indication of regular poor grammar skills if i used them frequently.

well, imo, the hokche tang lang could be a wah lum type school. it will give you a good foundation in cma. if it isn't then you probably could do about as well at the Shaolin 5 animals school. the buk sing school would be a nice compliment to either the shaolin or mantis schools. so i guess it depends on how much class you want to take and from how many schools? good ettiquite should require you to inform the prospects that you are considering them as complimentary instructions and ask if they have preferences for or against dual kwooning or specific stylistic rivalries to be avoided. imo, mantis and wing chun are everywhere. you can find one within reasonable driving distance anywhere in the world. some shaolin and hung gar are rare. i'd check there first. note: in kung fu, a wide midsection on sifu means he twists a lot in his private practice which means he trains for fights against multiple attackers. this is a clf trait. so start with the shaolin guy.

[PangQuan]

I most deffinately would not waste time with that Shaolin school. Its pretty obvious they are not avid practitioners of actual Shaolin Kung Fu. The cyber train at your home is a pretty good indication. You MUST have constant hands on correction to learn a highly developed system of martial art.

As well I would not completely pass by the Austrailian Tai Chi Academy, visit all three. It wouldnt hurt. It may just happen they have an excellent method of thier own, with a healthy environment.

[Mr Punch]

4. You can test your WC in live fire practice right away in a sincere enviornment - at least if it is like MMA schools I've visited. Build off your base.Yes and no.

It depends on whether they train with 14/16 ozers (which will bugger up half of wing chun's training) when learning stand-up and sparring stand-up, whether they are training elbows (inc from clinch), and whether they can spar with kicks to the knees.

I love my MMA classes but I don't get a chance to try out my wing chun in most of them.

So I'd go 1, if he wants an intro to another CMA with what's probably a good fighting base and 4, if he wants to push his cardio with some good fight-based sports skills.

[Mr Punch]

Pang Quan. Nice motto!

Or is that a quote from Mr Moto? :D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I most deffinately would not waste time with that Shaolin school. Its pretty obvious they are not avid practitioners of actual Shaolin Kung Fu.

there are four main families of shaolin and not all of them look alike, either. there are upwards of seven style of hung gar, all of which call themselves shaolin. there are a total of seven differnt styles of half-kin to Shaolin whai also call themselves shaolin. also remember that there were at one time 18 families of shaolin styles. shaolin encompases a lot of difference. most of the mantis guys will tell you to stay away from shaolin. like the church of scientology of religion many mantis stylists feel they should be the only martial art. another product of yip man's legacy durring the cultural revolution. :mad:

[greendragon]

I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, choose the teacher not the style. With that comment out of the way, avoid the shaolin, Choy Li Fut is good, traditional, has weapon training and using it you can fight multiple attackers.. where as
MMA (BJJ) is good only for one on one fighting. But even though I dislike this style and it's representative skin heads, it would be the one I would choose. For one reason, if you are attacked on the 'street' it may be by this type of fighter and you will know better how to defend against it. Secondly, you need to learn ground fighting and grappling skills in your arsenal of techniques. I suspect the Wing Tsun was short on that.
Again to emphasize, go for the teacher not the style or the look of the school. I would say look for a Tai Chi school but that may be a waste of time as most are flakey, and it takes TWO years to use it in combat. Choy Li Fut is a quicker study.
Go with MMA.

[SimonM]

there are four main families of shaolin and not all of them look alike, either. there are upwards of seven style of hung gar, all of which call themselves shaolin. there are a total of seven differnt styles of half-kin to Shaolin whai also call themselves shaolin.:

YZDZ the thing is that we went to the website, we looked over their material and it wasn't that it looked different it just looked really sloppy and not at all good.

Hell! My gong fu is nearly all derived from Shaolin (albeit with influence from Mongolian sources) one way or another and I, after looking at that page, said DON'T go to that school. Just saying "shaolin" in the logo of a school does not make it legit. ;)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YZDZ the thing is that we went to the website, we looked over their material and it wasn't that it looked different it just looked really sloppy and not at all good.

Hell! My gong fu is nearly all derived from Shaolin (albeit with influence from Mongolian sources) one way or another and I, after looking at that page, said DON'T go to that school. Just saying "shaolin" in the logo of a school does not make it legit. ;)

i certainly agree with you.

i don't have a problem with dvd learning. i wish i had discovered it earlier. i think it is innovative for them to address the issue to people living in the outback. the only really sketchy thing i can see is the cheap graphics. as far as determining which to study based on the pictures on the sites i'd say you have to eliminate first the buk sing site because all there is is basically a history lesson and some data about extras on a set.

okay, i've gone back to that site three or four times now and i guess i'm just now seeing the kinds of things you guys are describing as dodgy. and yeah, i'd stay pretty far from that gang and the people they communicate with. please forgive for bringing up this nasty little bias of mine, again, but there is a couple of krishnamurti hybrids with scientology two of which are organised around martial arts. martial arts good, krishnamurti good, wacko forcing of students into wacko mindsets for professional adaptation (instead of merely noting potential aptitudes)...hey didn't this guy make a court case some years ago? he had to defend himself from charges of being a wacko cult leader preying financially upon his students by getting them to redirect themselves into social and professional spheres where he had influence? the sociologists involved for the gov't of australia concluded he was not wacko and not scientology but just overly concerned with the financial well being of his students. there's a paper on it in Australian Anthropology. a quarterly or annual report of master level theses and informative governmental research. not only did my sifu show it to me but my anthro professors, too. it apeared in a kung fu mag as well.

with that in mind, i'd do buk sing and the tai chi place. there's a lot MMA cannot stand up against in the clf and tcc and mantis avenues. tai chi chuan is stand up grappling. clf is medium to long distance skull crushing. mantis is as technical as shaolin hong and geared for the short to medium distance play.

[PangQuan]

80% of the kung fu i know is Shaolin derived. That school looks like crap and im sticking to it.



Mat: its from some old fu flick. Dont know which one, my elder kung fu brother busted it out one day, its been our moto since.

[SimonM]

Holy crap Pang Quan you and I have been like sharing a brain or something lately.

[PangQuan]

Holy crap Pang Quan you and I have been like sharing a brain or something lately.

You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.

[SimonM]

lol :D :D :D

[Slade]

I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, choose the teacher not the style. With that comment out of the way, avoid the shaolin, Choy Li Fut is good, traditional, has weapon training and using it you can fight multiple attackers.. where as

Dont worry I always go for teacher first, but I try to aim in the style I want to learn the most while finding a good teacher, traveling distance doesnt bother me overly to get a good teacher.



Secondly, you need to learn ground fighting and grappling skills in your arsenal of techniques. I suspect the Wing Tsun was short on that.

Yeah my Wing Chun falls very short when it comes to grapling. the Chin Na wing chun has is all stand up stuff basicly so it really doesnt help me when I get the the ground that much unless I sorta try to adapt it to that.

Bascily after thinking about it, im seriously considering Choy Lay Fut, because in 5 or so years I was thinking about going to China to train at Shaolin for maybe 1 or 2 years so having more experience in learning forms and animal based forms will seriously help me when I get there I figure, not to mention give me the stance strengthening which I no doubt will need.

As well as doing the Choy Lay Fut, I think im gonna try find a BJJ school near my area with a good teacher, since choy lay fut is only 3 days a week I still have another 4 days to learn BJJ. I usually aim for 5 days a week of training anyway.

[bing bang pow]

Choy Li Fut and Wing Chun were popular in the same area of china and traditionally they were practiced by two rival gangs. They are traditional enemies. I think you should study Cho Li Fut and tell them, when you get there, that Wing Chun is a vastly Superior art. See what happens???? I guarentee you will learn somthing. lol

[bing bang pow]

By the way, I wouldn't be concerned about the weight of the teacher. Mohamad Ali and Sugar Ray leonard were trained by a huge guy named Angelo Dundee who was like 350 lbs and 5 foot 3". FAT! However, he trained some of the greatest fighters in the world. In fact, once you are finished with Choy Li Fut, you might want to walk into the fat guys school and call him a slob. See what happens? You may learn some more. lol :)

[Mega_Fist]

I would definately go with the shaolin (2) guy. His site is spiritual and he looks like he knows his stuff.

[Yum Cha]

CLF if you don't want to go back to WC, but you want to stay in TCMA. It will spoil your WC.

When I say spoil, I don't mean it negatively, but with what you learn from CLF, it just won't be the same, the principles are too different.

MMA if you want to go for something that compliments your WC, and adds another dimension to your skillset.

There is another Southern Praying Mantis school in Melbourne too...I believe...

[Mr Punch]

CLF if you don't want to go back to WC, but you want to stay in TCMA. It will spoil your WC.

When I say spoil, I don't mean it negatively, but with what you learn from CLF, it just won't be the same, the principles are too different.
...
I disagree.

While they have a lot of opposing principles, if you can 'get' both you can use them very effectively. A lot of people have and do. Look at Lo Man Kam as one example off the top of my head.

[Yum Cha]

Mat (and a very fine name that is too....)

Have you seen Low Man Kam fight? But if indeed you have seen him fight, and not just seen him doing forms from each,

Which stance does he use, tight upright WC, or lower wider CLF?
Does he swing his arms, or push them up the centre line?
Elbows in or out - knees in or out?

While it is probably possible to be able to do both, I'm not a big fan of mix-n-match. Plenty of people are, and I can accept that.

The point I want to make, for what little it may be worth to Slade, is to go for depth, not bredth in training. Learning WC and CLF is learning different ways to do the same thing (striking, bridging, kicking), whereas MMA has the whole grappling angle that WC doesn't include.

Of course, he could do worse than changing from WC to CLF...but from the kinds of workouts he's after, I'd say he'll probably opt for MMA.

Cheers

[Serpent]

I think that CLF school is closed now, so that might make the decision for you! Be sure to let us know here if it's up and running again though.

[Mr Punch]

Sure Yum (and what a fine name that is too!), I appreciate what you're saying about mixing and matching, but from what this guy says he may be able to handle it... some people suit it and some people don't.

As for Lo Man Kam, I've never seen him do forms, or even met him, but I have trained with a couple of his students, and they've shown me some CLF flavoured WC exercises and elements to their chi sao which has been very effective and I still use now (tho without such good effect!).

They use a loose wide somewhat upright wing chun stance (that's got you hasn't it!). Sometimes they swing their arms (but here's another hint, a lot of wingchunners with no CLF influence don't just limit themselves to 'pushing up the centre'!), and sometimes centreline. Sometimes their elbows are in and... (guessed it yet... in my wing chun I was taught not to stick to elbows in all the time!) and sometimes out. And their stances were fairly standard; in the usual stance their front knee was in and their back knee slightly out (though probably 'slightly in' to a CLFer!).

The only thing I can say to you is... look for a Lo Man Kam student, and play with them. It's wing chun, but you'd recognise some of the aspects. I'm not sure but I think Lo learned CLF from childhood before he learned wing chun, which he learned from his uncle Yip Man (so he didn't have a typical MA experience!). Might be wrong bout that tho.

[Slade]

Well for your information I do Tai chi as well as Wushu ATM as well(used to do muay thai), so im quite used to wide stances and dont limit myself to straight line punching at all. I kinda live by the Jeet Kune do Principles so I dont limit myself to a single art and merely use what I find useful, hense why I have a broad range of techniques from many different styles.

BTW I am going to learn BJJ one day, when I get around to it, maybe at the same time as doing this style.

BTW I found a trainer who operates out of Melboune as well i jeet kune dov http://www.jkdacademy.com.au/ Judging by the looks of the trainer they at least the instructor hasnt let himself go and trains hard (At least at gym if not anything else)
Mind you the styles he teaches at Jeet Kune do dont seem to be as broad as at Dan Inosantos Academy. Any thoughts?

Also the offical Jeet Kune Do Federation has one listed in melbourne.
--------------------------------
Michael Tagg
Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do
P.O. Box 81
Carlton South Melbourne,
Victoria Australia, 3053
Email: tstama@hotmail.com
Lineage: Bruce Lee -- Richard Bustillo -- Michael Tagg
--------------------------------

Any thoughts?