Some thoughts on CLF dilemma

[iron_silk]

This is NOT about the history or evidence but merely ideas and theory that (in my opinion) are note worthy concepts that could apply to our current situation.

HSK was kind enough to pm about my questions so here are points and questions:

(Note I've posted these ideas before but unfortunately due to the clutter of other discussions it just got shafted.)

POINTS:
(1) One thing we ALL can agree on is that Chan Heung is Jeong Yim's sifu. Correct.

(2) Since Chan Heung is Jeong Yim's sifu (or at least of his potentially multiple sifu[s]) then all student's of Jeong Yim would call Chan Heung "SiGung"

(3) When Jeong Yim met Chan Heung, Chan Heung was already teaching his art that he learned from Chan Yuen Wu, Li Yau San, and Choy Fok.

(4) Chan Heung already has many students and would take on Jeong Yim as one of his students.

QUESTIONS:
(1) Chan Heung is already an established master and therefore has a reputation to keep. Even if Jeong Yim learned from "Green Grass Monk" new materials that Chan Heung did not learn (now this is still an "IF") it would be hard (if not impossible especially considering Chinese Culture and time period) for a master to learn from anyone (that is not his sifu) let alone his own student.

(2) Since Jeong Yim considered Chan Heung his sifu there is a Chinese saying "Once your sifu, Always your sifu" so it would be not be right to place him self at the same level his is own sifu (regardless of skill level), such as the title of "Co-Founder" of a system. Heck back then when your sifu sat down you had to stand.

(3) Style and systems are bound to change as the Sifu passes it along from student to student. It is evident how different practicioners would do the same things differently and perhaps even change or add to fit their experience and knowledge. The goal is to improve what you teach to your students and even creating a set. (E.g. Famed "Tiger and Crane" set was not passed down by Hung Hay Goon but still he is the ancestor of the system)

(4) In the past when a new system of kung fu comes out it is USUALLY created by ONE person. As the saying goes too many chef spoil the pot. A creation of a system is very much a personal expression of one individual and their ideas.

(5) I am sure if Chan Heung taught a long time under another name than CLF and then change it decades later something fishy would go on considering the reputation he has already built.


I feel you would really follow a Sifu because of who they are. I have a great amount of respect for my Sifu and would recognize myself accordingly with "his Sifu" being my SiGung. It doesn't matter whether the kung fu my sifu teach is changed to fit his way or not (because he had many masters) because I follow the person not the system.

[Fu-Pow]

Personally I think it was Chan Heung that created CLF and it was Jeong Yim that made it famous.

Kind of like how Hung Ga existed before but it was Wong Fei Hung that made it famous. Or Wing Chun existed before but it was Bruce Lee that made it famous.

Jeong Yim is folk hero and he deserves his rightful place in the lineage.

However, I agree with you iron_silk that to promote Jeong Yim to some kind of founder or co-founder status flies in the face about what we know of Chinese culture.

Could there have been a "special exception" because of the situation. Hmmm...kind of doubt it because socieities don't usually totallly ignore the underpinnings of their social order unless you're immediate danger (think hurricane katrina danger).

Now on the other hand I kind of question the Chan Family concept that Choy Fook was really Ching Cho Wo Sheun aka Green Grass Monk. But how can we verify that?

The lineage that my Sifu gave to me and is on our website looks like this

http://www.makskungfu.com/choylayfut/ChoyLayFut.html

Choy Fook, Li Yau San and Ching Cho Wo Sheun are the teachers of Chan Heung.

Jeong Yim is the student of Chan Heung.

Chan Yuen Woo doesn't factor into our lineage but maybe he should?

Anyways, I don't really care who people put as Chan Heung's teachers but I do accept that he is the founder. No one would probably give a rat's ass about CLF though if Jeong Yim hadn't been his student.

Was the fame that Jeong Yim brought to CLF a good thing though? Maybe if CLF had just stayed with the Chan Family it would've been better because the lineage wouldn't have become so convoluted and you'd have a situation like with Chen Taiji where the isolation in Chen Village kept the lineage somewhat pure.

Any art that becomes hugely popular splinters into fragments as people try to claim power, fame and money for themselves.

[CLFNole]

My take is that Jeurng Yim created his branch of CLF in the same manner Tam Sam created his just at different periods in time. Jeurng Yim could be considered the founder of Hung Sing CLF just like Tam Sam is the founder of Buk Sing. Now in terms of CLF as whole they would be part of the generation. What is so wrong with that?

Someone always comes before the other, it doesn't mean there kung fu was better or worse just that they came first. A student can surpass the sifu, that to me is a true sign of a good teacher.

[iron_silk]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read this!

I just wish all CLF could agree as we do.

By the way Fu-Pow nice video...certainly different from the Ba Guo Sum set in Vancouver.

[iron_silk]

I wonder what HSKwarrior thinks? If he chooses to respond.

[hskwarrior]

iron silk,

remember something first. I'm only speaking based on what i've researched to this point. Based on that, i'll offer my opinions, if that's cool.

1) According to our branch, Jeong Yim returned to Chan Heung to pay respects. During his visit Jeong Yim somehow managed to show Chan Heung the gung fu the GGM taught him. It is said that Chan Heung was impressed with his students new skills. Out of respect for all Chan Heung did for him he returned the favor by sharing the GGM's gung fu. This created a special kind of relationship, one more on the lines of fellow classmates as opposed to being once a student/teacher relationship.

It is only our guess to why and how that relatioship was reached, it just was according to our branch.

2) I don't think Jeong Yim put himself there as co-founder, but according to our branch the two of them added in what jeong yim learned and then created many more new techniques in addition to what was already created by chan heung. Since Choy Lee Fut ( and truthfully we don't even know if the hung sing branch called the style choy lee fut for the first few generations) was taken a bit further because of Jeong Yim's contributions, he became co-creator. Then Jeong Yim took his leave, went back to Fut San, and then at the that point it is believed that the two branches began separately developing techniques unique to the individual branches.

In my opinion, that is where the branches split and two branches were formed. Chan Heung began teaching his gung fu only to his fellow villages with chan surnames in King Mui. while Jeong Yim was separately developing his gung fu under his branch. Once again, that is where the split originated.

3) you're correct.

4) i don't know how to answer

5) Pls explain

as to your final comments, history is only a small part of gung fu. What really matters is how good your gung fu is, but there will be some who want to know the history, and if i don't record the oral history as it was passed down to me and i never tell anyone else, then my history is forgotten while the other guy made sure his history will be remembered for all time.

All one needs to truly know is that there are 3 branches of CLF each with their own stories of their own origin, and somewhere in that origin lies their connection to the founders of their branch.

peace.

[Kennyfist]

Quoting Hsk "iron silk,

remember something first. I'm only speaking based on what i've researched to this point. Based on that, i'll offer my opinions, if that's cool.

1) According to our branch, Jeong Yim returned to Chan Heung to pay respects. During his visit Jeong Yim somehow managed to show Chan Heung the gung fu the GGM taught him. It is said that Chan Heung was impressed with his students new skills. Out of respect for all Chan Heung did for him he returned the favor by sharing the GGM's gung fu. This created a special kind of relationship, one more on the lines of fellow classmates as opposed to being once a student/teacher relationship.

It is only our guess to why and how that relatioship was reached, it just was according to our branch.

2) I don't think Jeong Yim put himself there as co-founder, but according to our branch the two of them added in what jeong yim learned and then created many more new techniques in addition to what was already created by chan heung. Since Choy Lee Fut ( and truthfully we don't even know if the hung sing branch called the style choy lee fut for the first few generations) was taken a bit further because of Jeong Yim's contributions, he became co-creator. Then Jeong Yim took his leave, went back to Fut San, and then at the that point it is believed that the two branches began separately developing techniques unique to the individual branches.

In my opinion, that is where the branches split and two branches were formed. Chan Heung began teaching his gung fu only to his fellow villages with chan surnames in King Mui. while Jeong Yim was separately developing his gung fu under his branch. Once again, that is where the split originated.

3) you're correct.

4) i don't know how to answer

5) Pls explain

as to your final comments, history is only a small part of gung fu. What really matters is how good your gung fu is, but there will be some who want to know the history, and if i don't record the oral history as it was passed down to me and i never tell anyone else, then my history is forgotten while the other guy made sure his history will be remembered for all time.

All one needs to truly know is that there are 3 branches of CLF each with their own stories of their own origin, and somewhere in that origin lies their connection to the founders of their branch.

peace."

Hsk,
1) Are you now telling a story "it just is" without reasoning?
Quote:"It is only our guess to why and how that relatioship was reached, it just was according to our branch."

2) Quote:"Since Choy Lee Fut ( and truthfully we don't even know if the hung sing branch called the style choy lee fut for the first few generations) was taken a bit further because of Jeong Yim's contributions, he became co-creator. "

Are you telling us that your not sure whether for "some generations" what a branch (Jeong Yim's) taught was "CHOY LEE FUT" ?
Yet you claim Jeong Yim took CLF "a bit further" and "became" "co-creator"?

What kind of reasoning and logic is that?

But what Chan Heung taught his son and students was "Choy Lee Fut". It didn't suddently "became CLF" after "a few generations", did it?

3) Not all Chan Heung's students were surnamed "Chan". What about Long ji choy?

4) Quote:"if i don't record the oral history as it was passed down to me and i never tell anyone else, then my history is forgotten while the other guy made sure his history will be remembered for all time."

Now this "oral history" is not really history is it" If it is not supported by evidence, it is just "myth" isn't it?

Now myth that is least plausible amongst a selection of "myths" or "oral histories" would more likely be "the one forgotten" naturally.And that myth deserves it too if any of them should be "forgotten". Right?

5) Just because you "tell" a story, it does not mean it will have "an equal standing" if it is more internally inconsistent, more "unsupported by evidence" and more "unlikely". Right?

[Kennyfist]

Another thing.
If CLF was established in 1836 and Chan Heung's students (2nd generation CLF) taught CLF in various areas since around 1848..... and you don't know whether what was taught by the Hung sing (futsan?) branch was known as OR CALLED CLF FOR FEW GENERATIONS, then how can you call Jeong Yim "co-creator" or say that he"took CLF a bit further"? How do you know what the futsan group taught was CLF? How could Jeong Yim have co-founded a style which was not called by its name in his and some subsequent (how many?) generations in HIS lineage?

[Kennyfist]

A question: How can you "co-found" a style with your teacher if what you teach and for some generations subsequently in your lineage is NOT KNOWN BY THE SAME NAME AS THE STYLE OF YOUR TEACHER?

[Kennyfist]

If whilst others are teaching CLF in various places, and it is UNCERTAIN whether what you and your group (for some generations) taught was known as CLF,......then HOW can you have co-founded or founded CLF? HOW MUCH could you have contributed to the style?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

It is really unfortunate that the historian of your branch told you that the Green Grass Monk was the same person as Cai De-Zhong, one of the five legendary founder of the Hung Mun Secret Society, because it is written in the Hung Mun Ji (the History of the Hung Mun) that Cai served the famous General Zheng Cheng-Gong from about 1661 - 1672 and the the society was founded in around 1680, almost 150 years before Chan Heung founded CLF, so there is no way the GGM could have taught Jeong Yim, they lived more than 100 years apart! Besides, there is no proof that Cai actually existed, he was a figure in the Hung Mun story made famous by later day fiction writers.

In case you need evidence, I have snipped out the relevant bit from the official history of the Qing Dynasty, you need a Chinese reader to read it and I have underlined the name and the dates. The quote came from this website:

http://www.qinghistory.cn/qinghistory/research/Index.aspx?id=143&articleid=2640

清史研究
哥老会起源:
1947年朱琳在《洪门志》中，又进一步发挥了这一说法。称洪门“起于汉留”，始祖为殷洪盛，山西平阳府太 平县人，明崇祯四年进士。清初，奉史可法之命至北京窥探清廷虚实，沿途遍访志士顾炎武、王夫之、傅青主、黄 梨洲诸人，议创汉留组织，“反清复明”，顺治二年战死于三汊河。顺治十八年(1661年)，郑成功据守台湾 ，为推进汉留组织，“开山立堂，定名为金台山明伦堂”，并遣部将蔡德忠等向中原发展，至福建莆田九连山少林 寺为僧，与郑成功之侄郑君达等共图义举。康熙十一年(1672年)西鲁入侵，蔡德忠与郑君达等前往投效，打 败西鲁。后遭陷害，逃至万云山的万山寺，遇万云龙及陈近南。雍正十二年在四川雅州以汉留组织，开精忠山，是 为四川哥老会之始。

Back to the drawing board Frank! :D

EJ

PS: If you are interested in finding out more about Cai De-Zhong in Chinese source, here is the Google search page for your interest:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%E8%94%A1%E5%BE%B7%E5%BF%A0&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&start=0&sa=N

[hskwarrior]

i can't read that joseph,

but i am always open to knew information. this you don't know about me, brother joseph, but as you would, i would like to check over that info, first before i make some conclusion.

if you can find more that just one of those projects to back that up joseph, i would love to read that, as well.

joseph, who was the author, and what was the purpose of this work?

don't think the battle is over, this is only a minor set back.

but like i said, if this new info is done by only one person i will be skeptical though

thanks for the new stuff, joseph, that helps in my research.

[hskwarrior]

but oh,

and i don't see any dates specifically for Cai Dezhong, so you can't verifiably say that he existed during the 1600's. However, for one, this is a step closer to verifying my story. if it is completely wrong, i am man enough to admit it, because i could say "now if know for sure, and that is put to rest. but as of yet, i am no down and out.

See, so far from what i have read is that the "True originators" were during the early 1600's or possibly even before that. Just like the Red Turban Revolt, it was much older and in other places before it got to the fut san area where jeong yim and his people got involved.

so, what i am saying is that it is said that cai dezhong came and resurrected it through the shaolin temple. And this document, at least the one i am reading mentions the temples just as is in my story.

still checking out those pages and will be back to give updates to what i've learned.

thanks joseph, this is great, and it will help me more in my quest to learn the truth. as i have said, i may strongly believe what i do, but i am always open to learning the truth, because then once i know its the truth, i won't let go.


peace. be right back

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

This came from the academic paper of the National Institute for Historical Research on Qing Dynasty. They are a government body located in Beijing. The research was published in the monthly aceademic journal, the 4th. issue in year 2000. It is about the latest you can get from the government.

No, it is not done by one person but by a committee of experts. They get paid to do this for the government, because the government, for security reasons, has a vested interest in finding out the backgrounds of any secret societies in China.

You must have friends who can read Chinese, get them to do some research and translations for you, before you plastered all these false information on the web for the whole world to see. All I did was to do a Google search and tones of information came out about Cai De-Zhong.

Interesting, nothing on the existence or location of Ba Pai Shan in Guangxi, only Kung Fu legends.

Frank, with the informations available on the www these days, you just cannot make up stories like that.

Cheers,

EJ

[hskwarrior]

Joe, where does it actually state that he lived during the 1600's like the page says he served that emperor?

Served that emperor.........do you think that the word "served" can substitute for supported? since all of the southern chinese wanted to overthrow the evil ching empire so that they may restore the ming, do you think they would also claim to be serving the emperor you mentioned because of their love and devotion towards that ruler?

i think what is being said is that anyone who supports the previous ruler of the country can safely say they serve him and only him.

see what i mean?

[hskwarrior]

now, joseph, would you be willing to publicly apologize for your mistake if i can prove there is or even was a Pak Pai mountain?

Now, joseph, here we go in circles, where did this information come from that the government paid this panel to do the research?

you know i am in the works of working with the government in fut san who also has records, but it is a bit of work trying to get info out of them.

so joseph, so far, you have only set me back a minor step. nothing too big.
the race is still on.

what you don't realize is that i am open to being wrong. i am only human.

but my site stays up until i am completely wrong, until then, i'm sticking with it. :D

To all those who are watching, if joseph happens to be completely right, this isn't some life or death battle, it is two clf men working at straightening out the very hazy past of our great system. i will take anything that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, and when all the doubts are clear, i will change my account and work at changing it in fut san with the hsk headquarters.

[hskwarrior]

ok,

According to joseph, the Hung Mun was established in 1680. With that i checked the hung mun book and this is what i came up with:

The 1st great founders:

Chiu Hung Ying
Hong Kai Cheng

Great Founders

Chan Kan Nan--Master
Thian Yu Hong--Vanguard
Wan Yan Loong--maintains the right and destroys traitors

Foundresses

Lady Pi
Lady Kin
Lady Koh

5 Ancestors

Thsai -Teh Chung--the Green Grass Monk
Wu Dedi
Fang Dai Hong
Li Sik Hoi
Ma Chiu Sing

5 Tiger Generals

Wu Thian Qing
Li Chih-chih
Hong Thai Sui
Yau Pieh ? (wrote down sloppily)
Lin Yun Chow


Now, if the hung mun was established in 1680, with the 1st great founders, the great founders, and the foundresses, Cai DeZhong and the rest of the 5 ancestors came much later.

this information is from the hung society book, which was first printed in 1885, and one of the first kinds to infiltrate this secret organization.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Looks like I have to do the translation for you, here is the relevant text:

顺治十八年(1661年)，郑成功据守台湾 ，为推进汉留组织，“开山立堂，定名为金台山明伦堂”，并遣部将蔡德忠等向中原发展，至福建莆田九连山少林 寺为僧，与郑成功之侄郑君达等共图义举。康熙十一年(1672年)西鲁入侵，蔡德忠与郑君达等前往投效，打 败西鲁。后遭陷害，逃至万云山的万山寺，遇万云龙及陈 近南。雍正十二年在四川雅州以汉留组织，开精忠山，是为四川哥老会之始。

"In 1661, Zheng Cheng-Gong was stationed in Taiwan, in order to continue the revolution, he instructed his general Cai De-Zhong and others to travel back to the mainland to spread the revolution by enlisting as monks in the Potian Shaolin Temple in Fujian. They were to co-operate with Zheng’s nephew Zheng Jun-Da but in 1672 the Xi-lu barbarians attacked from the west and Cai and Zheng went to meet them and defeated them. Shortly after, they were ambushed and fled to the Wan Shan Temple in Wan Yun Shan (Mountain) and met up with Wan Yun-Long and Chen Jin-Nam. Subsequently, the Ge Lao Hui (the fore-runner of Hung Mun Society) was formed in in the 12th yeaqr of the Reign of Emperor Yong Zheng (1734) in the town of Ai-Zhou in Sichuan province."

You said in your website:

"Around 1831, 17 year old Jeong Yim was on a quest to find an elusive monk who went by the name of Green Grass. He lived somewhere on Mt Pak Pai at the Shajian Temple and Jeong Yim was hoping to complete his gung fu training under such a great master. Once he found the Green Grass Monk he proceeded to learn the deadly art of Fut Gar.....By the time Jeong Yim learned all that the Green Grass Monk had to teach, his sifu still had one more gift to give him. Jeong Yim completely supported the revolution, and with this the Green Grass Monk revealed that he was none other than Cai DeZhong, Chief founder of the Hung Society."

As you can, Cai was in the Fujian Shaolin Temple somewhere between 1661 and 1672 and the Sichuan Ge Lao Hui was found in 1734, when Cai was at least 90. So there is a huge between 1831 and 1661 - 1734 for Jeong Yim to have met up with Cai De-Zhong aka the Green Grass Monk and learned the "deadly art of Fut Gar" from him.

By the way, if Jeong was born in 1824 (Jeong lived from 1824 - 1893, according to Futshan HSG history on the web), he would have been only 7 in 1831.

EJ

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
There you go again.....Remember you told us there were no written records of green grass monk from that era, this secret man eludes the qing government and the writings of the period....yet you bring us this reference to a BOOK.......published in ENGLAND and written by TWO ENGLISHMEN...... and somehow managed to "infiltrate" the secret society with information about REAL IDENTITY AND OCCUPATION OF A "FOUNDER"...........

YOU THINK MANY WILL BUY THAT "SOURCE"?

IF YOU CANNOT SHOW EVIDENCE OF REFERENCE TO A PAK PAI MOUNTAIN OUTSIDE OF YOUR KUNGFU LEGENDS AND "BY WORD OF MOUTH" STORIES....HOW CAN YOU "PROVE" ITS EXISTENCE?

IF YOU CAN'T EVEN POINT THIS MOUNTAIN ON A MAP, HOW CAN YOU SO IRRESPONSIBLY REFER TO IT AS PART OF "HISTORY" AS IF YOU HAVE CERTAINTY ABOUT ITS EXISTENCE?

BTW It is not "proof" to bring out your "General" lacey website mentioned a friend who knew..... and you can't just point to any mountain and say "that is it", because likely people can further investigate a name of a place and its previous names etc if there were any alterations through history....

And don't give us something like "Wudang mountain is Songshan mountain in disguise, it is "possible" people changed the name to hide location identity because they needed to hide from the government..."

You can probably guess what are possible outcomes of making up something and try to change known information through some "convenient" excuse with no evidence to back up claims....

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Frank,

It is really unfortunate that the historian of your branch told you that the Green Grass Monk was the same person as Cai De-Zhong, one of the five legendary founder of the Hung Mun Secret Society, because it is written in the Hung Mun Ji (the History of the Hung Mun) that Cai served the famous General Zheng Cheng-Gong from about 1661 - 1672 and the the society was founded in around 1680, almost 150 years before Chan Heung founded CLF, so there is no way the GGM could have taught Jeong Yim, they lived more than 100 years apart!

OH...SNAP!! :eek:

[extrajoseph]

ok,

According to joseph, the Hung Mun was established in 1680. With that i checked the hung mun book and this is what i came up with:

The 1st great founders:

Chiu Hung Ying
Hong Kai Cheng

Great Founders

Chan Kan Nan--Master
Thian Yu Hong--Vanguard
Wan Yan Loong--maintains the right and destroys traitors



Frank,

Chan Kan Nan is Chen Jin-Nam and Wan Yan Loon is Wan Yun-Long in my translation, Cai met up with them in Wan Yun Mountain in the story.

EJ

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Didn't you say that ALL HUNG SING GWOON (or was it only ALL FUTSAN, did kei lun agree with you your whole story....but it doesn't matter much....) AGREES WITH YOUR STORY?

1)If Futsan Hung sing kwoon history on the web says Jeong Yims 1824-1893, which means he was 7 in 1831.....yet YOU say he was 17 in 1831....Now isn't that a disagreement between YOU and the FUTSAN GROUP?

Or did somebody get it "wrong" relatively amongst members of your group? Or did someone change their story? Remember your elders "by word of mouth" oral "history"? Didn't claim Jeong Yim died young around the age of 30? That would be around 1854 if he was born in 1824.

2) Check outside your group for dates of Jeong Yim re-opening the futsan HSK----you may find it as around 1867. Now according to the claim of dying young around 30 yrs of age, and the year of birth around 1824....then Jeong Yim would have passed away 13 years before he supposedly re-opened the futsan school.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

3) Has the story been changed now..... you no longer claim Jeong Yim died young?

4) If Jeong Yim was 17 in 1831, then he would be 30 at around 1844. If we use the date that he supposedly re-opened the futsan school around 1867, then he would have died 23 years too early to have been able to do it (reopen the futsan school).

5) If we use the year of birth as 1824 for Jeong Yim, he would be 7 around 1831 as Joseph pointed out, and only about 12 yrs of age around 1836 when CLF was established.
Does it sound likely to you? (Co-founding or founding CLF at around 12 yrs of age)

[Kennyfist]

Another thing is, if you still claim Jeong Yim opened his futsan school in 1839, he would have been around 15 yrs of age at the time if you make a claculation using futsan Hung sing web claim ( "by word of mouth" oral story?) year of birth of Jeong Yim as around 1824.

[extrajoseph]

Now, joseph, here we go in circles, where did this information come from that the government paid this panel to do the research?

you know i am in the works of working with the government in fut san who also has records, but it is a bit of work trying to get info out of them.

Frank,

版权所有：国家清史编纂委员会 地址：北京市海淀区中关村大街45号 邮编：100086 E-mail：admin@qinghistory.cn

It says in their website which I have copied above for you and translated below: "The copy right is with the Government Committee for the Research and Editing of the Qing Dynasty History". Their address is listed in Beijing which I have underlined it for you, and they even have an email you can write to. They have offices all over China and whatever they published they have the backing of the government. You cannot get more official than that!

Of course you won't get anything from the Futsan government, they will be embarassed because they know what is available. I have a gut feeling they made this up for you, fancy choosing one with the same surname as Choy Fook (Cai=Choy)! They could have chosen any of the four other Five Ancestors.

BTW, from my experience in China, I don't think the actual Futsan government is involved, more of a job for the Futsan HSG people to put the wool over your eyes. The government is too smart to be holding a can like this.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

with this new information that you've presented to me it gives me wider opportunities to keep up my research. thank you for the google chinese search i will use that now.

Will i stop my account of the history of green grass monk, no. but i will keep researching. And from what i've learned, even from the general, is that there is a pak pai mountain in kwangxi. i don't have access to it, but am working on trying to verify it for us.

We have people in fut san that we deal with regularly, and they are helping us with government documentation, and what ever historical information is out there.

Now, Chiu Kwan Yuen is one of the elders i am referring to that promotes that story. personally i don't have a way o emailing him or any of his student, but if you do, would you lend me the email or phone number?

Chui Kwan Yuen is one of those elders who says cai dezhong is the ggm and that he stayed at the shajian temple. and if this is wrong, then his reputation as an elder is at stake because he published it in his book. it is elders such as chui kwan yuen and such that promote the hung sing history as i do.

But remembah, slowwwwleeee, but surrrreellleeee we will come to a conclusion.

what is being said, is that cai dezhong came later and resurrected the hung mun by instituting it into the shaolin temple.

[hskwarrior]

no, there brother,

just because you come on like someone who knows something, i think you don't know everything. you may be chinese, and have an advantage over me when it comes to reading chinese. but i have the drive and desire to know the truth and will not settle until i learn it.

wool being pulled over my eyes? no, i wear glasses so i can still see through the wool.

Trust me, joseph, i have been informed that fut san is well aware of what is going on here on this forum, people do read it. and things are in the works.

You say that just because that paper you qouted is authenticated because it is copywritten? what is their evidence? how do they know about an organization especially a secret one when they were totally against the government?

for me to believe what they wrote, i would have to examine it for myself. want to know what their sources. are their sources available. i'm not satisfied until i can look at them.

because what i did notice is that on some of those links about cai dezhong it did mention that some stories were written by a mr. jing Yong who is a fictional writer.

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Let me help you to possibly avoid some more embarrassment.
Please do not give account of Chan Gun Lam from Jin Yong novel.
Hint: In English look for something like "Duke Of Mt Deer".
Anyone like Zhang Wuji?

[Kennyfist]

QUOTE :"no, there brother,

just because you come on like someone who knows something, i think you don't know everything. you may be chinese, and have an advantage over me when it comes to reading chinese. but i have the drive and desire to know the truth and will not settle until i learn it.

wool being pulled over my eyes? no, i wear glasses so i can still see through the wool.

Trust me, joseph, i have been informed that fut san is well aware of what is going on here on this forum, people do read it. and things are in the works.

You say that just because that paper you qouted is authenticated because it is copywritten? what is their evidence? how do they know about an organization especially a secret one when they were totally against the government?

for me to believe what they wrote, i would have to examine it for myself. want to know what their sources. are their sources available. i'm not satisfied until i can look at them.

because what i did notice is that on some of those links about cai dezhong it did mention that some stories were written by a mr. jing Yong who is a fictional writer."


Hsk,
You may need to read a bit more carefully.....
1) Who said something is authenticated by copyright? Which post? Where?
2) If you are looking for "official" "government researched" information, Joseph has already provided you with some possible contact sources.

3) Quote: "how do they know about an organization especially a secret one when they were totally against the government?"

What about the question" How does your futsan group know " about an organization especially a secret one when they were totally against the government?"

And how does TWO ENGLISHMEN infiltrate this same secret organisation which was against the qing government and then reveal them...in a BOOK.......IN ENGLAND!
CONSIDER THE CULTURE OF THE TIME. HOW "OPEN" WERE THE CHINESE TO FOREIGNERS? COULD A FOREIGNER HAVE EASILY LEARNT KUNG FU FROM A CHINESE BACK IN THOSE DAYS? CONSIDER CONSERVATIVENESS AND SECRECY.
HOW LIKELY THEN DO YOU THINK OF TWO ENGLISHMEN "INFLITRATING" A SECRET CHINESE SOCIETY......WHAT ABOUT POSSIBLE LANGUAGE BARRIER?

4) The organisation aimed to overthrow the qing didn't they? Consider is this the qing government researching on them?

[Kennyfist]

Quote: "for me to believe what they wrote, i would have to examine it for myself. want to know what their sources. are their sources available. i'm not satisfied until i can look at them. "

Hsk,
Good to check sources. But why don't you ask "what were their sources?" and examine them before using as "evidence" your 1885 BOOK PUBLISHED IN ENGLAND AND AUTHORED BY TWO ENGLISHMEN ABOUT A SECRET CHINESE SOCIETY?

[Kennyfist]

QUOTE: "Chui Kwan Yuen is one of those elders who says cai dezhong is the ggm and that he stayed at the shajian temple. and if this is wrong, then his reputation as an elder is at stake because he published it in his book. it is elders such as chui kwan yuen and such that promote the hung sing history as i do."

Hsk,
Consider if the chinese government and their panel of expert's reputation is at stake if their published "official" information is wrong vs the reputation (at stake?) of ONE chui kwan yuen.

[Kennyfist]

Quote: "it is elders such as chui kwan yuen and such that promote the hung sing history as i do."
Hsk,
Both YOU and "YOUR ELDERS" could be WRONG.
WHAT VALUE IS IT IF SO AND SO PROMOTE A STORY THAT IS WRONG OR UNSUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE, INTERNALLY INCONSISTENT ..... AND SHOULD WE MENTION THAT " SEEMS TO CHANGE"......

[extrajoseph]

joseph,
Chui Kwan Yuen is one of those elders who says cai dezhong is the ggm and that he stayed at the shajian temple. and if this is wrong, then his reputation as an elder is at stake because he published it in his book. it is elders such as chui kwan yuen and such that promote the hung sing history as i do.

Dear Frank,

If you read Futsan HSG's website you will know they are smart enough not to push Chiu Kwan Yuen's line openly. We know all along Chiu is the poison in the wine, and you are being used because you are a Gwailo who wear your heart on your sleeve.

Enough said, just go and practice hard and leave all this BS for the elders to deal with cos this stuff is way way above your head!

Frank, just do what you feel is right and use your head... and try to be honorable and fair!

My best wishes, bro!

EJ

[Kennyfist]

QUOTE: "you know i am in the works of working with the government in fut san who also has records, but it is a bit of work trying to get info out of them."

Hsk,
Why do you seem to "doubt" the government researched information on one hand, and then on another hand seem to "endorse"/"take for granted" government information coming supposedly specifically from FUTSAN government?
What about possible agenda of income from tourist attraction?

[hskwarrior]

brother joseph,

I do thank you for giving me another avenue to pursue in my quest. for that, i deeply appreciate it.

however, the Green Grass Monk is part of the hung sing kwoon history, and i will stand on it as until i can learn more to either chuck it, or keep it. at this point, i feel like i am nowhere near drowning because of my passion and desire to know the truth. and until then, i will keep searching.

yes, i know history should be the least of my worries, and actually i do work on my choy lee fut, every day and i look nothing like fu pow in the least (no disrespect intended man, it is what it is), with or without my students. my friends actually get irritated because i can never sit still, always training in one way of another.

thanks again joseph, but now i don't dislike you anymore, you're like a family member i like arguing with.

peace

[hskwarrior]

and joseph, its never way over my head, and neither are you. brother ;)

how's australia? or is it canada?

stick around, dude.

[hskwarrior]

...................


oh ,wait, you can't read that, you're not choy lee fut.

[hskwarrior]

have you guys seen this site:


choyleefut.com.cn

[hskwarrior]

oh, but i have just learned that Jeong Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon is the first one registered in fut san.

so, so far chan heung's students opening up in fut san are not recorded there. this comes from the fut san local government.


peace

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You have taken the words of one person, not even one from Futsan and turned it into your gospel, your war cry. No one else is so stupid as to say GGM is Cai De-Zhong except Chiu Kwan Yuen and you have taken it on as your cause to fight for, is it what an intelligent MA would do?

Don't waste your time, spend it on practice or with your family instead.

EJ

[Fu-Pow]

and actually i do work on my choy lee fut, every day and i look nothing like fu pow in the least (no disrespect intended man, it is what it is), with or without my students.


I'm waiting for YOU or EJ to post a clip of your form on the web. Then we can talk about who is out of shape or has hands "inside the curtain." Everyone "looks" much better than they really are.....hiding behind their computer screen. :rolleyes:

(BTW, if you have a clip of yourself shot on digital video, you can mail it to me and I'll convert it to something that can be webcast. Send me a PM if you are interested. This applies to any and all CLF pracitioners posting here.)

[extrajoseph]

Fu Pow,

You're right, I am going to bed and practice my dreaming. I will post a clip of me snoring one day! :D

Cheers.

[hskwarrior]

now you're calling an elder stupid?

[hskwarrior]

fu pow, if i was capable of doing it, then i would, and have no worries about what anyone says about me. forms mean nothing when it comes to how to use it in a fight.

you want to be the one to always be against me, so here, i will give you my true honest opinio about your hand form....

You said you've been knowing that form for a 1-1.5 years, it shows.

You have no horse, your hands are slow and sloppy, you don't look as it your techniques would stop anyone. you say you have tai chi in your background, well that shows too, leave it out of your choy lee fut, it only hinders you.

now, when it comes to me, you will remember, i was never to walk again after my accident, but when i get something on tape that is worth displaying, i will gladly do so, and am working on that today as mof.

but i will give you one thing, a vidoe doesn't truly give you justice, for example, i didn't like my fut san sifu when i first saw him on tape, but in person he was awesome.


and to joseph, you will have to come at me with more than that, right now you are only giving me the material to research from and i have already found something that says there are two beliefs about the original founding of the hung mun society. In a transcript from the london british musuem, it is said that the hung mun is believed to be established around july 25, 1734.

Cai De Zhong is the 2nd set of 5 ancestors, which indicates that he came at a later time. if 1734 was the correct date of its establishment, then cai dehong will likely to have been around.

only the hung mun knows when it was established, and only a few documents exist from that time, from the documents discovered after being lost for decades indicates this.

although joseph has thrown in a monkey wrench, i am still chugging along. if this cai deZhong thing isn't the truth, i still have Mong Ng Ging to look into. that is the green grass monks other name. then the search starts all over again.

Now, whether it is wrong or not, it is a possibility. Unless i see actual birth records of chan heung to prove this wrong, the fut san hung sing kwoon has chan heung being born in 1815. i know, i know, the family say he is born in 1806, i've seen it 1805, but there is a 10 year gap missing somewhere. i have heard it was done to make chan heung look ten years older than jeong yim. but i don't know.
its what is said?!

that's not coming from me, i am not the source of that.

[hskwarrior]

the only way for me to research our history is by starting with chan ngau sing, and going backwards as far as i can.

by counting backwards, i have discovered the idea of jeong yim dying when he was young, killed by people waiting for him in ambush was wrong. according to that story he would have died around 1847 approx. was false because Chan Ngau Sing was born in 1863, and joined jeong yim in 1883. Jeong yim died in 1893.

to learn the truth all i had to do was count back from chan sings death and the age he died at. so simple.

so joseph, the more you give me the more i am going to dissect it to learn the truth. if you want to help, keep it up. if you don't want the truth to come out, then stop.

kenny fist......

[hskwarrior]

fu pow, all you can say about me is that i am fat. no big deal, but if you look at my photo's on my new little website (updated), you will see my hands and horse do not look weak at all. trust me, i may look slow to you because of my weight, but remembe something, it is my gameplan, and looks are so deceiving, that is my element for surprise. you think im slow, because i walk slow, but when i move its not what you think. i'm no jet li, but i ain't really slow in the least.

forms are basically just a dance. the more you practice, the more you perfect it. but was it your sifu that emphasized your movements because he doesn't move that way at all. you guys move totally different.

forms, are like blackbelts, they are nice to have, but when it comes down to it can you use it in real life combat?

Fu pow, a real fighter will look at your hands and say there is no power, even soft power in his hands at all. looks as if you are doing it just to do it.

i didn't want to hit you that hard about your form, because believe it or not, i'm not that big of a jerk. but your hard on for me sent me over the edge.

when i get something on tape for you, and it will be mainly for your viewing, but you will see the difference in our hands. and the horse for that matter.

peace.

[premier]

Wow. I can't believe this... You're still debating this? :confused:

Dudes, afterall, it doesn't really matter. ;)

[hskwarrior]

who's debating it. i'm not even fighting.

after all, are you only speaking up to see yourself?

why comment at all. you know i won't listen. so why bother.

just read another thread. get out of this one.

go!

[Fu-Pow]

Fu pow, a real fighter will look at your hands and say there is no power, even soft power in his hands at all. looks as if you are doing it just to do it.

You don't think I'm a "real fighter" huh? Not "buff" enough for ya huh? Stop by Maks anytime and let's put on the pads and go for it.

You see Frank, I have plenty of power in my hands but the power is relaxed so you don't see my muscles tense. Watch my clip in slow mo and you will see it. Its like a battery that charges and discharges, but in between it is soft. That's what Joseph means when he say "inside the curtains."

The power of CLF should be like a steel whip, soft on the outside but with lots of "weight" on the inside like a black jack (http://www.thieveryut.com/weapon/blackjack.jpg) . Don't matter... CLF or Taiji or whatever, all good kung fu has this quality. So I'll keep up with my Taiji thank you.

As for the horse stance, that's the way that I learned....we don't play the horse stance really low like some others. The point is to be rooted, not necessarily to be low. Watch my feet again, frank, do you see a lot of shuffling around or unecessary foot movement? Do you see alot of wasted movement period or strugging to stay on balance? FYI, I usually do play the stance a little bit lower but the stage we performed on was pretty wobbly.

Look I'm not claiming I'm a master, I don't call myself Sifu. I'm not saying I'm in the best shape or I know everything there is to know. But I put my sh)t out there so people can compare CLF, not to be judged whether "right" or "wrong."

Frank, you are fat. You call me out of shape but you look to be OBESE. No offense man, but its like the pot calling the kettle black. Now, personally, I don't think that you do have to be Mr. Beach muscles to be a good street fighter...a ring fighter,yes, you need to be able to go 10 rounds...but a street fighter,no.

Look at some of these old internal masters that look out of shape but could own anyone, anyday. (Hell, my rail skinny Taiji teacher weighs a buck fifty (or less) but can thrown my 245 around the room.)

MY point is that if you apply the criteria by which you are judging ME to YOURSELF..... then you're basically saying that you couldn't fight your way out of wet paper bag!!!??? Because you look 10x more out of shape than me!

Anyways, why don't you grow some balls and post a clip of yourself and let the world be the judge you..... if your ego can handle it....I'm pretty self-secure in what I know and what I can and can't do......so it really doesn't phase me too much...no matter what is said. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

i didn't a real fighter as if you are not.

based on your performance, im not worried.

i don't think anyone can see the power in your hands.

your root in the horse is not very deep.

me obese?! how could you tell? if i was afraid of being obese, i wouldn't have put my photo's on the net. see, i actually like my size, but thats my reasons, for people like you who say im obese. that is the element. i look obese, but have you seen me move? have you seen me demonstrate a technique? have you felt my hands? No!

actually its kind of hard to lose balance when almost standing. you have no horse, therefore no power which eminates from the floor up.

See, that's the element of surprise. you saw my photo's and assume because i am overweight that i am slow, 10x slower than you. or that i couldn't out last you during endurance training.

first and foremost i am a streetfighter. a dirty one if need be. if i was to get in the ring which is too late for that now, i would get in the right shape. but since i am out in the streets, where survival is an everyday thing, i must focus on a different type of training. street level martial arts is sometimes lethal if need be. but you tend to see more maiming and broken limbs than you would in a ring.
and thats what i train for. life.

now, weight can always be lost, but my skill is my skill, and if that sucked, then it would show. and most of my students are fighters, streetfighters, guys who don't play and will hurt you for starting trouble with them, and i'm only 5'7", if i sucked at what i do, then these are the kind of guys that would clown me and bounce out on me. no doubt.

so, looks are deceiving,bro.

[Kennyfist]

Quote: "if this cai deZhong thing isn't the truth, i still have Mong Ng Ging to look into. that is the green grass monks other name. then the search starts all over again."

Hsk,
Doesn't that sound a bit "convenient"?.......... YOU AND AN "ELDER" claim green grass monk is cai dezhong as if it was some "history" (but did you provide evidence?)....and now when someone presents information that contradicts your claim and shakes its very foundation, you present something that sounds like"oh, if they prove us wrong that he is not cai, we've still got another identity/name to attribute to green grass monk..."

[Kennyfist]

Quote: "by counting backwards, i have discovered the idea of jeong yim dying when he was young, killed by people waiting for him in ambush was wrong. according to that story he would have died around 1847 approx. was false because Chan Ngau Sing was born in 1863, and joined jeong yim in 1883. Jeong yim died in 1893.

to learn the truth all i had to do was count back from chan sings death and the age he died at. so simple."

Hsk,
Now doesn't that sound like a "convenient excuse"?
Wouldn't it sound something like: "oh, we've got to CHANGE our "by word of mouth" oral "history"/story now because if we don't, it won't fit the claim tht Chan ghau sing was born in 1863 and learnt from Jeong Yim in 1883---and we will be "proven wrong"....." to PEOPLE WHO DON'T BUY YOUR STORY?

[Kennyfist]

QUOTE: "joined jeong yim in 1883. Jeong yim died in 1893."

Hsk,
Where is the evidence for your claims with the 1893? Where is it mentioned, or who told you chan ghau sing "joined" jeong yim in 1883?

If there is no evidence, and your " BY WORD OF MOUTH " ORAL STORY KEEPS CHANGING, DON'T YOU THINK IT WILL SOUND LIKE YOUR PLAYING AROUND WITH DATES AT YOUR LIBERTY TO THOSE WHO DON'T BUY YOUR STORY?
EG. " WE'LL SAY JEONG DIDN'T DIE YOUNG NOW...... CLAIM HE DIED AROUND 1893.....SAY CHAN GHAU SING JOINED HIM IN 1883......GIVE HIM A GOOD 10 YRS TO TRAIN!....."

BTW DIDN'T YOU MENTION SOMETHING ABOUT LAU BUN'S TEACHING IN OLD AGE, AND DFW LEARNING FROM LAU WHEN LAU WAS OLD.....BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR CLAIM THAT CHAN GHAU SING LEARNT FROM JEONG YIM WHEN JEONG WAS "GETTING OLD" LAST 10 YRS OF JEONG'S LIFE? If age affected Lau Bun's teaching, do you think age would also affect Jeong Yim's teaching? What about yuen hai's learning? (is Yuen the senior or junior to chan ghau sing?)

[Kennyfist]

Quote:"to learn the truth all i had to do was count back from chan sings death and the age he died at. so simple."

Hsk,
Maybe you need to correct and refine your "research" technique.....otherwise the more research technique you expose the more embarrassment you bring to yourself....

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Mong ng ging?

If there is no supportive evidence.....it won't be much different in validity to choosing ANY OF THE OTHER "5 ELDERS" OR ANYONE ELSE IDENTITY AND ATTACH IT TO THE GREEN GRASS MONK".

Is Chan gun lam the green grass monk? what about Yang gor? what about zhang wuji? what about fong sai yuk?

[Fu-Pow]

i didn't a real fighter as if you are not.

based on your performance, im not worried.

i don't think anyone can see the power in your hands.

your root in the horse is not very deep.

Stupid comment because root is not something that can be seen only felt. It seems you don't have a lot of experience with the internal side of things.



me obese?! how could you tell? if i was afraid of being obese, i wouldn't have put my photo's on the net. see, i actually like my size, but thats my reasons, for people like you who say im obese. that is the element. i look obese, but have you seen me move?

Frank, you look medically obese. That is, your Body Mass Index is way to high for your height. If anything its unhealthy and puts unecessary pressure on your body.
Your weight is like 90% based on what you eat so I'm assuming you have a pretty crappy diet despite all your training. It might also explain your attitude. Too much fat, salt and meat is never good for anyone's disposition.



have you seen me demonstrate a technique? have you felt my hands? No!

Have you felt mine?..... and yet you make all these assumptions about me based on the public performance of a form.

But why don't you post a clip? If you don't have the technology then send me something even on VHS and I'll post it. Send to:

Mak Fai's Washington Kung Fu Club
c/o Eric Olson
501 S. Jackson
Seattle, WA



actually its kind of hard to lose balance when almost standing. you have no horse, therefore no power which eminates from the floor up.

Almost standing up? Look, mostly when people perform the stance tends to come up a little bit. It was exacerbated by being on a wobbly stage with bits of lettuce on it from lion dancing. I think I'd rather be a little high than fall on my ass cause I slipped on a piece of lettuce, especially when performing in front of 500+ people in the center of Chinatown.




See, that's the element of surprise. you saw my photo's and assume because i am overweight that i am slow, 10x slower than you. or that i couldn't out last you during endurance training.

Look, all I'm saying Frank is don't judge others based on how they look unless you want it comin' right back at you. You might be a great street fighter despite your weight but by your own bullsh)t criteria you must suck ball$.





first and foremost i am a streetfighter. a dirty one if need be. if i was to get in the ring which is too late for that now, i would get in the right shape. but since i am out in the streets, where survival is an everyday thing, i must focus on a different type of training. street level martial arts is sometimes lethal if need be. but you tend to see more maiming and broken limbs than you would in a ring.
and thats what i train for. life.

now, weight can always be lost, but my skill is my skill, and if that sucked, then it would show. and most of my students are fighters, streetfighters, guys who don't play and will hurt you for starting trouble with them, and i'm only 5'7", if i sucked at what i do, then these are the kind of guys that would clown me and bounce out on me. no doubt.

so, looks are deceiving,bro.

Blah, blah, blah...street fighter...blah, blah, blah...too deadly....etc.
Come on up and lets put on the mitts. It doesn't have to be a death match or anything but I think it might enlighten you a little bit.

Ciao Fat Boy, I'll be on a cruise for the next week so I won't be around to debate the master debater.

[hskwarrior]

fu pow,

medically i'm fit no diabetes, high blood pressure, nor cholesterol, and most probably can out do you in a training session endurance wise. i have my sifu to thank for that. 1-2 hour training sessions non stop.

i don't try to lose weight, and the only place i am over lapping is right around the waist. i am tight every where else. plus i completely understand how to use my weight to my advantange.

let me tell you something fu pow, neither you nor anyone else here can accomplish what I have, coming back from a total below the waist paralyzation. most people would have just given up and accepted their fate. but me, i am no quitter, and until any one can prove to me that you have endured anything close to what i have, you can't say nothing wrong. now look at me, i am back to kicking, running, and almost everything i had taken away from me. even won tournaments during my recovery. i wasn't ready at all. i was even fighting in matches with what 5% use of my legs. i was super determined to get back to normal.

so call me fat, obese, or what ever you wish, the one thing you should of learned about me is i don't let go.

when it comes to me putting out a form for people to judge, how about i take the form you did and see how i can do it?


peace.

[hskwarrior]

and actually yes, personally i feel my forms suck balls o hairy. but some may not, and the one thing i've learned from my accident is not to think i am da ****e, but always want to improve no matter how good other people think i might be.

that is the key to my success, never be happy always strive for better. when you think you are there, you (not YOU!) have a habit of sitting back and saying out loud..." I am there..Yeah!"

See, the difference between you and me fu pow, i take the negativity and turn it into fuel to drive me further. talk all the stuff you want, it will only make me stronger. if someone i feel is pretty tough and he wants a piece of me, then i train harder with that in mind. i use all negativity as fuel.

[hskwarrior]

its fei jai, tall and sloppily lanky one. don't you forget it. :mad:

watch out im sending hung sing ninja's to watch you on the cruise. bring lots of immodium a.d.

oh, gloves don't prove anything, not even my students use gloves when sparring.
they understand, if they get hit they get hit. its their fault. so, are you up to messing up that pretty face and put some manly scars on it?

have fun

[Fu-Pow]

fu pow,

medically i'm fit no diabetes, high blood pressure, nor cholesterol, and most probably can out do you in a training session endurance wise. i have my sifu to thank for that. 1-2 hour training sessions non stop.
i don't try to lose weight, and the only place i am over lapping is right around the waist. i am tight every where else. plus i completely understand how to use my weight to my advantange.

Frank, you need to look at your Body Mass Index. Statistically, if you are over a certain BMI you are considered obese. That puts you at risk for all kinds of diseases and aside from that it makes your heart and joints have to work that much harder.

We do 1-2 hours non-stop training also...Sifu likes to play the game sometimes, how many Saap Ji Kauh Dah can you do?




let me tell you something fu pow, neither you nor anyone else here can accomplish what I have, coming back from a total below the waist paralyzation. most people would have just given up and accepted their fate. but me, i am no quitter, and until any one can prove to me that you have endured anything close to what i have, you can't say nothing wrong. now look at me, i am back to kicking, running, and almost everything i had taken away from me. even won tournaments during my recovery. i wasn't ready at all. i was even fighting in matches with what 5% use of my legs. i was super determined to get back to normal.

Frank, you have an amazing story. There's other amazing stories out there. We had a kid at our school who was half blind and had something like cerebral palsy and Sifu taught him all the way up to the sword form.


so call me fat, obese, or what ever you wish, the one thing you should of learned about me is i don't let go.

when it comes to me putting out a form for people to judge, how about i take the form you did and see how i can do it?


peace.

Frank, you started it. However, I do think that in order to improve one's kung fu your general fitness level should be pretty good. We all have something to work on. I myself was 230 this time last year and now I'm weighing in at 245. More treadmill time and circuit training are in my future.

[hskwarrior]

i know i am overweight, and presently i am working at losing it. because of my spinal injury my metabolism slowed down greatly. i once got up to about 260. but see, truthfully, i do move kinda quick, but i realize how much faster i will be when i lose the weight. i mean its kinda hard training with more than a hundred pounds on you extra weight.

about the sup ji game, we would do that with our cheung kuen. it is about 3 times longer than our cheh kuen, and we would always do it in a real low horse, over and over again, until pass out time.

you know who inspired me most though, is lee siu hung, to know he gets up there and 300 sow choys, at 50 yrs old? its time for me to get on the ball.


peace

hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh, by the way, if you check out: hongshengguan.com and hit the english button you will see on the left that the fut san hung sing kwoon does believe the version i have put out about the green grass monk.

so i am not alone in feeling this way about the green grass monk.

peace.

oh, and here is a few websites for you to read about the green grass monk.

capital.net/~phuston/hung.html
siulam.info/hungmun.htm
fuhok.com/hung%20Gar%history/shaolingungfu.htm
fonghungga.com/history.shtml
yeeshungga.com/tradition/history/
hongshengguan.com

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Don't ignore the relevant point. Futsan group agrees with you?

FUTSAN GROUP SAYS JEONG YIM 1824-1893. WHICH MEANS 1831 JEONG YIM WAS ABOUT 7 YRS OLD.

YOU SAY 1831 JEONG YIM WAS 17.

THIS IS ABOUT 10 YRS DIFFERENCE.

DO YOU AGREE?

[Kennyfist]

Another Thing,
Who cares about websites talking about green grass monk. Present some evidence!
The Other Lineages might Make Multiple Websites With The Same Chan Heung Story. So?
What Is Your Point?

[extrajoseph]

What is the point?

Frank is trying to tell us that if more and more people are saying the same thing, then it must be true.

A mob mentality.

[hskwarrior]

no, im saying that im not the only one, and that fut san does see it from my point of view.

are you sure you're not kenny fist?

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
I'm not Joseph.
Let me tell you something. If you take the time to read and consider carefully what Joseph posts, you may learn to correct your reasoning skills and correct and refine your "research" technique. His displays penetrating logic and reason, and if you consider the hints he gives you in his postings it is obvious he has high level understanding of kung fu.
Based on these reasons, and my experience with this forum, I consider in terms of kungfu, Joseph to be THE MOST RESPECTABLE MEMBER POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

A mob mentality means you will find comfort in not being the only one. So?

Wrong information is still wrong information not matter how many times it is repeated.

No, I am not kennyfist, but we do share similar views in certain things. I don't think he even do CLF.

Good to see that you have queiten down a little. Do you always carry on like this? Your partner must love you a lot.

:p :) :D

[extrajoseph]

Hsk,
I consider in terms of kungfu, Joseph to be THE MOST RESPECTABLE MEMBER POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

:o

Nah.. as far as I am concerned, that honour goes to CLFNole!

:)

[CLFNole]

Ha me respectable :eek: , maybe I should turn over a new leaf. :D

By the way you mentioned the "loi leem sow" was passed on to your teacher but not yourself. I thought your father was your teacher. If he didn't pass it on to you I think none of us stand a chance.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

Lets face it, all schools of TCMA are declining, who would spend 7-8 hours a day practicing? We argue in front of the computer instead!

I did not care for my father's art while he was living, now it is too late...

:(

[CLFNole]

Sisuk:

That is too bad often when we are young we take for granted things around us and expect them to be there forever.

I know what you mean. In this day and age it is hard to "truly" dedicate oneselve to an art like in the old days. Yeah maybe forms look prettier now but the practioners back in the day were hard and cared only if things worked. We live in a society with rules and law enforcement so for the most part martial arts consisting of sparring with your brothers and working on forms and weapons. Some people might use their kung fu more if they live in bad area but for the most part I don't think people use kung fu for every day survival anymore.

I wanted to ask you as you age in kung fu how do you find your practicing has changed. I am going to be 37 soon and still have good energy. I generally practice about 3-4 days a week and try to get in at least one real good practice session of 2-3 hours by myself or with my sifu. Do you find that you work on only the forms you like or do you try to maintain them all? I know you don't teach and frankly I have been trying to phase myself out of teaching also since I feel there are fewer and fewer students that really want to learn.

Thanks.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

I changed the way I train round about your age or may be a little later. Instead of focusing on performance and fighting, I began to turn inward and work on myself and the details. I also took on Taijiquan and Qigong more seriously about that time.

I began to do less form and more repetitions on the basics and bagwork. It is kind of funny, the older I get, the more of a beginner I became!

I have taken a video of all my forms, just in case I need them, but I don't practice them any more. I have a couple of favourites and a weapon and my Taiji I do regularly. I still try to do at least 1 - 1.5 hours a day in the morning, 6 days a week with about 20 mins on stretching and flexibility each time.

I have started to teach again (2X Taiji/Qigong) just to force myself to stay sharp but I don't demand too much from my students, I am happy if they can turn up once a week to keep fit.

Yes, the world is changing...

:)

[gwa sow]

hey, stop it i'm gettin misty eyed "sniff sniff" :D

[extrajoseph]

:D :eek: :D

[iron_silk]

I go for a couple of days and the thread when crazy with rantings.

Though...I am not part of the conversation I really enjoy how the topic took a more positive turn with CLFNole and Joseph.

[firepalm]

What do you expect the CLF people will always be going at, arguing over whom is most original, direct lineage, etc... But it is not exclusive to them; the Wing Chun people do it, JKD is notorious for it, Wah Lum is doing it...

The CLF people here in Vancouver are all from Wong Ha and they all talk each other down; Gary Seto has mixed his CLF of Wong Ha with Hung Sing (Jeung Yim via Singapore branch), Shung Ying is tainted with Wushu, the ladies teaching in Richmond are resented by some of the seniors, CLF at Hon Hsing is changed by Peter Wong, etc..., etc...

This kind of negativity does nothing to convey a positive image of any style or worse yet the Chinese Martial Arts as a whole. Me personally I think they should celebrate the diversity of the style and put that out there instead of bickering over ancestors that are long past and stuff that is difficult, if not impossible, to prove.

As EJ put it TCMA is on the decline, the folks here would better serve the interests of TCMA and themselves by putting their energies into something a little more positive and constructive. My 2 cents! :eek:

[Sow Choy]

Hello Extra Joseph,

I just wanted to say hello and say I am glad you are well. It is nice to see you posting here again... I do hope you can share some personal stories of training or any other stories that you feel are inspiring...

Kung Fu on the decline???

That is easy to say... but EJ, CLFNole and others have said go and practice... You should search for a good teacher, not style... Is that teacher good? Does he/she practice what he/she preaches? Can they help you get results? What results would you like???

These are important questions... Each teacher (a good one) is special in different ways... Li Siu Hung is a no B.S. type of guy... He thinks people talk way too much... When people visit the school he will tell them they are fat... or if they are bragging about their past... he will find a way to humble them... because most are not as good as they claim... So many blackbelts have come to my school and can not even step foward correctly or kick above the waist...

If you reall think kung fu is being degraded and you actually care.... Do something about it... The best way is to really train alot and not make excuses... Find people to teach and train yourself and them hard... Don't consider yourself a real player if you are just practicing forms here and there... try the total package, and your life will change...

As far as history... "Choy Lay Fut Yut Ga" "Choy Lay Fut is One Family" and a great family it is... Yes there are some that are full of crap and some who are real... But there is room for everyone, don't let it affect your happiness...

Peace...

Joe

[Sow Choy]

Yo Frank...

Keep doin your research... Like I said before just present it in a way for all the brothers to think about...

I think CLFNole said this once, but I will post it again...

The way we were taught our history from Lee Koon Hung was Chan Heung taught Jeung Yim and then sent him to learn from GGM, he came back and shared what he learnt... The feeling I got was that Chan Heung and Jeung Yim had a close relationship... We were always taught that Chan Heung was the sifu and founder...

But it is interesting to see anything at all about the period... Who knows who is right or wrong... Lee Koon Hung's book has been mentioned here a few times, the history part...

Lee Koon hung never taught us this version... He also jsut posed for the pictures and had others help him... The books were funded by sponsors, I believe some one from Hong Kong University...

Maybe Tat Wong was one who helped in this progress, I believe I saw his website state that same history, which throws more confusionn for those who seek the history...

Also Fu-Pow,

The lineage on your website states Lee Koon Hung followed only Poon Sing... This is wrong... Lee Koon Hung mainly followed Jow Bing & Leung Sai, the head instructors... I remember Lee Koon Hung saying he followed Poon Sing in the beginning and also Poon Dik too, I may be wrong about Poon Dik. Some of the Hong Kong sihings say Poon Dik was already passed...

After becoming the head instructor of the Poon Dik School, So Kam Fook trained Lee Koon Hung in more advanced sets, weapons and other CLF training... He talked of So Kam Fook the most...

After that I believe in the 70's, Movie Star "Shek Kin" trained him in about 8-9 Northern sets and they enjoyed talking... Lee Koon Hung really respected him alot...

I will be visiting GM Poon Sing in Hong Kong after Christmas to celebrate his 80th birthday, and also visiting GM Shek kin who is around 95-96... I also am planning on visiting King Mui if things work out well... But mainly will be with the monkey guys and my sihings...

Anyway...

Take care everyone...

Joe

[iron_silk]

firepalm,

Nice to hear from you again! I have in the recent past years finally get to see some of the different ways CLF is played. Players from each side would claim their is the best way, and it's true to a certain extent. I see the positive aspect in the way they choose to perform their system, though to be in one aspect also means they lose in another. Not one is better than the other just difference of preference since they emphasis different points.

Sow Choy (Joe),

I agree that it is the person. Although I believe Nole and Joseph was refering the general decline...how students would be less willing to work hard or to wait to learn certain forms...it is unfortunate and apparent in the way teachers must bend to a certain extent.

But at the same time I if the teacher is the right one he will inspire them to work harder. Not all will. I am lucky to find the right sifu. I follow him not because of the system he teaches but because of his knowledge, ability, and character. I am impressed by him and don't think I will ever reach his level, but I will continually try to surpass my on standard.

I've seen some masters good at kung fu by questionable characters and actions. All well...ability is good...but good character is more important sometimes.

Joe Keit,

I saw you perform in Vancouver along with Paul Fraga and pretty amazed with how smooth, loose, fast, and low stance you guys were. Especially Paul Fraga since when I first looked at him I didn't think he could move the way he did...amazing job. Definitely interesting to see a different take on CLF.

Thanks!

[Sow Choy]

Iron Silk,

Thank you for the compliments, however I felt quite the opposite that time... Especially with Chan Koon Tai and all the other big shots there...

Paul Fraga to me is amazing... He is the kinda guy who gets results, that man has taught me so much and I am still learning new things about him and from him... A remarkable man...

I saw some CLF people there too, you should introduce yourself to me next time... We are bros... There is one guy from canada who does CLF, he always makes a mean face, kinda short... VEry cool guy and pretty good too, he must have done 4-5 forms that night... I competed against him in Seattle way back... I always forget his name... very cool guy...

Anyway, with the history... the evidence and importance is in the techniques and the forms... whoever invented this system, left important cluese to be a better martial artist... lets not forget that ;)

Joe

[iron_silk]

I am only making guess but are you refering to Matthew Wing? He got white hair and I think at that time wore a blue kung fu uniform.

If I get an opportunity I'll definitely say "hi" and I'll have no prob identifying you since your face is so well known! :D

I'm not sure how interesting it is to meet me though since my level of kung fu is such a beginner. :(

[CLFNole]

Mathew Wing, I remember meeting him a number of times over the years. I too competed with him. Nice guy and good CLF.

[Sow Choy]

Yes, Matthew Wing... :)

Funny guy and good for his age too...

It dont matter what level, age, color, style, etc... Friends are for friendship... I am not out to impress or be impressed, I am most impressed when someone is friendly and fun to talk with... Because there are some grumpy people out there...

My face well known...? Only if you read KUNG FU MAGAZINE (http://www.kungfumagazine.com)

or shop at:
MARTIAL ARTS MART (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prsh005.html)

That was for Gene Ching...

You see Gene, i am working for ya...

:P

Peace,

Joe

[hskwarrior]

you choy lee fut pimp joe.

thanks for the encouragement, bro, you know me, i'll just kwa sow chop the history.

but you know what makes me mad, is that kei lun tried to put me in check when his sifu published the very same information that i have, and he had the nerve to hide the fact the his sigung is chui kwong yuen, then tell me "i don't want to talk with you on history."

what's up with that kei lun? Me thinks me smells a hater!!!!!???
hatin" is bad for your karma. dude you unfairly attacked me and put your sigung to shame. you must of had a bad day right? that has to be the only reason unless you just don't know your own history, for you to do me like that.

thats weak.

hsk

[Kennyfist]

Is Someone Upset His "all Hsk Agrees With Me" Claim Got "disproved"?

[iron_silk]

Matthew Wing is really cool. He's still pretty fast and mean but if you saw him back in the 80's ... wow he would go crazy fast and hard in two man weapons fighting.

I am glad Vancouver CLF is recognized outside of Canada.

So Joe when are we going to see some of you vid post you mentioned before? ;)

[hskwarrior]

kennyfist,

actually, if you are a direct descendant of the fut san hung sing kwoon, then kenny all hung sing kwoons agree with my story. Why? Because my story is their story, no real differences except in writing style.

Kei lun is just one man, he contradicted the hung sing history saying that his lineage doesn't believe the fut sans history, but his sigung is none other than chui kwon yuen. One of the very same people who tells our story exactly the way i do. He promotes it, so why doesn't kei lun follow the history according to their lineage? seems kinda shady to me.

Now in the case of the lee koon hung lineage, and this includes fu pow, i feel they should know both sides of their history equally. no choosing sides, stay very neutral, but know their histories. i'm good with that.

name me one hung sing kwoon that doesn't agree with the history according to the Fut San Hung Sing Branch. just name me one, (has to be true hung sing though-no other lineages mixed in). go ahead kennyfist, just name me one.

so your attack on me about all hsk don't agree with me has failed. just name one.

[Sow Choy]

iron silk,

I will try as soon as I can find the time... I have a student whos is good with computers and I will have him help me...

But if Gene Ching were here he would shoot you a link to buy our videos, ha ha ha...

There is a video link of Master Li Siu Hung on the site somewhere, probably his page, it is from our videos a piece of him doin forms from the section of his bio on our videos...

I have seen some of our Canadian CLF bros, and I am happy to see such good quality there... Hopefully we will all be re-united through more demos, tournaments and gatherings... IMO we do not need anymore federations and organizations... They seem to seperate us instead of bring us together...



Joe

[hskwarrior]

oh,

kei lun, i'm sure you don't know things about the hsk or jeong yim that i don't already know. (per your last PM to me) based on the fact you disputed the very same story your sigung promotes.

[hskwarrior]

have any of you guys checked out this sight yet?

lots of good stuff. Through the site, coming from the chan clan i've learned that lau bun's teacher Yuen Hai was the vice president of the Guandong Province MA Association, that's cool.


but if you click on the discussion forums, all three branches held a historical research seminar called "the Choy Lee Fut origin and development seminar"
all 3 branches got together to share history, and what not. but the hung sing version of the history is on there as well.

it is a chan site, and they will most likely dispute the hsk side of things. like always.

but good site either way.

peace

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

I agree that there is 2 stories... And that should be fine... But to me bottom line will be the quality of kung fu... I hope the hing sing schools will promote themselves more, as well as the Chan family... So everyone can see CLF, I believe there is more similarities then differences, I also believe we have different names for techniques.

Loi leem sao, we have in our school... But they are variations of it in other styles too... So we probably have more things in common... So get to work on those videos, and get them out there, and then people will see the most important part of CLF...

All this history talk seems to be controversy over what generation someone is or whatever, and in todays world, it don't mean quite so much... Even Chen Yong Fa doesnt claim to be keeper of all CLF, even he understands there are so many CLF schools and branches...

So if Hung Sing has the GGM influence, I would be interested in seein the part he has influenced in CLF...

When it comes to Jeung Yim sharing his kung fu with Chan Heung, whether he had other teachers or not... I can see this as a possibility... I do the same with my Sifu, he has taught me alot, but I believe I have taught him a great deal too from my experiences... CLF seems to me a very unique style in that is complete and even 1 person makes dynamic changes in their abilities and technique throughout the years...

It seems the styles base is from an open mind approach, you see many theories that are completely different from each other within the system... This could be from many influences, but I would gather Chan Heung must have been a very intelligent and open minded man concerned with kung fu 1st...

I do believe that Chan Heung is the founder and is Jeung Yim's sifu and should be respected as such... They would most likely not want the family fighting over them... Plus, let them rest... We are lucky to have the gift they and all the past sifus have left us...

Now lets see what we all have... My school has 7 dvds/videos out there, they are not changed for video, the way we learned them... So its easy for others to get a glimpse of the LKH branch, also his books...

When it comes to story telling, I like hearing about sifus who are alive or are closer to our generation... I am sure many of you have some stories to share...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

joe,

Are u contradicting me? Are you contradicting me? Are you contradicting M?!??!?! Lmao :D :D :eek: :D

You know joe, its my fault for getting on here and being involved. this place is really becoming a wasteland, filled with society's rejects, with a few exceptions ;)
and must admit this forum is addicting. I know i should've just told our story thru books, and a website, but i thought it would be fun here. but who likes to hang around hell? i guess i do, huh?

no one really speaks of any significant training here, no personal exchange of ideas and methods, etc.. It's always hate, hate, hate! you can get on here and say "today is the worst day of my life, my mother just passed away." and the responses would be in effect, "Good, she deserved to die for having your dum a$$, i hope she rots in hell :eek: :mad: "

um, i do agree with you on the open mind idea. in fut san they are pretty loose, if they show you a hand and lets use a panther fist, but you ask if you can use a tiger claw instead, its instantly changed. thats the good thing about clf all the hands are interchangeable.

you said you would be interested in knowing what influence the ggm had on our gung fu, hmmmm, thats a good one. i am going to ask my sifu to call china and ask what exactly if they know was known to come from the ggm. as far as i know according to the chan sing lineage, ggm passed down the "in and out" bagua form, said to have 1080 moves in it. Chan sing felt it would take too long to learn and forever to perform, so he broke it up into 3 different sets....."our-or their" Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, and Kou Da Kuen from the fut san branch is said to be from the green grass monk.

I wonder, I've learned the first half of Cheung Kuen (considered a full set in itself) (long a$$ set, let me tell you) and after learning the kou da and ping kuen, hmmm i should put them together and perhaps have a close version of what the whole set looked like. maybe i won't.

But all we have to do is look at those three sets, they're said to be from the ggm, so tearing apart the sets should give us a better idea, maybe?

much love joe,
you big clf pimp
can i have your autograph?

[hskwarrior]

oh,

and since according to the lineage holders of the chan sing side, chan sing broke up the in and out bagua into those three sets, and the fact that he didn't join the hsk until 1883, and after Jeong Yims death in 1893, he turned the set into 3 different one means that Jeong Yims and Chan Heungs Ping kuen, & kou da (if they have one) are not the same. unless, chan heung created ping.......no he wasn't alive then, so scratch that. chan sings ping kuen came much later than chan heungs.

so looking at fut sans ping kuen and cheung kuen may give you a tid bit of insight into what the green grass monk contributed.

peace,

and stop start all this trouble joe. :mad:

[Sow Choy]

Ha ha...

Yes, to compare the different branches versions of Sup Gee, Ping Kuen, etc... would be a cool way to see technique difference... So far from what I have seen, it seems to be different patterns but the techniques we all seem to have... It also seems a great number of people do not understand what they are doing, or we are seeing many beginners...

But when you get down to it, for me at least... I would like to see the differences, and any relation to people branch, etc... I can usually tell when a form is Buk Sing, but I can be wrong at times too... Because the branches have also influenced each other I am sure... and from what I hear, Fut Shan is heavily influenced and close with the Buk Sing Kwoon... I think that is great... If for improving quality... But there will always be People who are "Mah Fahn" or "problems"...

So it would be nice to talk differences and compare forms, maybe someone can tape there baat gwa sum to compare technical differences with Fupow's...

Even Fu Pow's form, i can see techniques specific to Mak Fai and his flavor, so even in the same family you will see differences... Not a bad thing, a human thing, but I think that is more interesting then history...

But Frank you are right to research the histories, go for it... But all of us will just say interesting... So don't kill yourself over it, ya know...? I personally will respect all the elders as such, and take the stories for what they are... "stories" and try to remember the ones that inspire me to train harder...

I think a good topic would be Northern arts that share similar techniques and theories to CLF... I have been lucky to train with a Tai Shing Pek Kwar master and see alot of similarities as well as differences and even some techniques that made me look harder at some of CLF's techniques and see new possibilities...

But anyways, no autographs, I am CLF I am illiterate... hee hee hee

I kid, I kid...

Anyways, this history talk is good... "For me to poop on!!!" ha haha

Was watchin Triumph the insult comic dog last night... Excuse my outburst...

Peace y'all

Joe

[hskwarrior]

I think the current generation should get together and compare the differences of the same sets like sup Gee, Ping Kuen and whatever, and from that point maybe we can learn from eachother.

personal influence always plays a part, as well as preference too. preference meaning "I don't like doing it that way, I'll change it this way." then when that gets passed on the way it was taught to you is forgotten. See, i like lau buns stuff, always have, but after learning new sets from the fut san school has influenced my approach to clf a little. but i am always at heart a lau bun family man.

I don't know what buk sing is doing in fut san, but they are direct family, so if fut san wants to listen to them, then so be it. they are family.

joe, maybe when i take my trip to florida, we can do a study/comparison between our sup Gee's.

oh, but i won't poop on your version! :p

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Contradict you?..... sometimes YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF!
Quote from another thread: "kennyjist: "Although i'm not going to answer your questions which all have good answers for, because i don't know who you are, whom your teacher is, what you look like, smell like, and all that, so i will answer 1 or two of your questions.

don't think for a second that i will answer you again.

Jeong Yim ambushed and died young: this was information that came from the singapore hsk, and when they sent me a copy of their version of the history of our branch, i noticed they said jeong yim died young do to an ambush and chan sing and his classmates went on a rampage. but that story was wrong, because jeong yim died in 1893 after being poisoned. he taught Chan Sing in 1883, so there is no way jeong yim could have died and taught chan ngau sing from the grave."

1) YOU tell me "although your not going to answer my questions" THEN YOU PROCEED TO ANSWER SOME OF MY QUESTIONS.... what kind of logic is that? YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF! YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF ! YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF !

2) Name you one HSK that does not agree with you? YOU NAMED ONE ALREADY!
YOU said SINGAPORE HSK has got something WRONG (ACCORDING TO YOU) !

3) So you attack Kei lun for disagreeing with you (he is not hsk?) but you say some Yuan guy(?) is "realistic" because he sort of buys your claims......you found any Yip Man CLF yet?.....

See this link and see how YOU put YOUR foot in your own mouth!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38341&page=2&pp=15

[hskwarrior]

kenny fist,

do you like me? ;)

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

1) Doesn't it sound a bit too "convenient" to those who don't buy your story? : Jeong Yim didn't die young now...he taught chan ghau sing ....so he had to be around to do it......"

And if you say Singapore HSK got it wrong, then where did YOU get the 1893 date from? How? Oh, and to bring up one of Nole's questions right? Did they have calendars back then? What is your source?

2) So you don't know what is Noi Nim sou? So does that mean your branch does not have noi nim shou?
If Chan Heung taught Noi Nim shou ...and you say Jeong Yim mastered all chan heung's techniques in 5 years......

i' Are you now going to say your branch did not inherit Jeong Yim's noi nim shou" Or are you going to say it got lost through the generations?

ii) Or are you going to say Jeong never learnt noi nim shou from Chan Heung? If so, then how could he have "MASTERED" all of Chan Heung's techniques in 5 years?

[hskwarrior]

you know what you remind me of kenny,


a flunky sidekick that imitates his boss's every word.

Boss: You're gonna sleep with the fishes, see!

Flunky (kenny): yeah sleep wit the fishes, with the fishes you will, you'll sleep with the fishes, yeah!

or

Joseph: that's mob mentality!

Kenny: yeah, that's mob mentality!

Joseph: Kenny, shut up!

kenny: Shuttin up. yes bowss!


:) :D :D :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
You know some sort of quote from Homer Simpson....."we don't need a thinker....We need a doer...one that does without considering the consequences....."

[Kennyfist]

Post from another thread:

Hsk,

Quote: "you think you can beat me by asking the very same questions i asked when doing my research."

If you have asked the same questions I have asked of you in your research, and if you already have the answers to those questions.....THEN WHY DO YOU PRESENT THE RESULTS OF YOUR "RESEARCH" IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU ENABLE THOSE VERY SAME QUESTIONS TO BE RE-ASKED OF YOU?

Now do I have to find a way to tell you that is less abstract?

This is getting funny......

[hskwarrior]

where did i get the date of jeong yim dying in 1893?

hmmmmmm, maybe from the chan sing lineage of the fut san hung sing kwoon.
dumb a$$.

Are you going to tell me that Jeong Yim dying while Chan Sing was his student, who should know better than his direct student to when his own sifu died?

kenny, its when you ask stupid a$$ questions like that, its why i won't answer you.

i bet you will try to refute the fact that chan sing was born in 1864, joined hung sing kwoon in 1883, and ten years later his sifu dies. How don't you see the information passing down? are you blind?

once again, if the chan clan has something that the hung sing kwoon doesn't, it is because jeong yim and chan heung developed their gung fu separately. chan heung stayed in king mui and passed on his knowledge to his kid and other chans.

Jeong yim was involved in the revolution and was teaching his gung fu differently than chan heung. that is why chan heungs clan has things we don't . but there are things exclusive to the hung sing branch that the chan branch doesn't do.
i wonder why that is?

do you have an answer for that kenny, or just more questions.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

www.choyleefut.com.cn

Thanks for the reference, it is a really good site, full of interesting information. If you read the front page, there is a bit about how Jeong Yim came to teach in Futsan.

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/About/index.htm

In the seminar you mentioned (even the government was there represented by the deputy mayor), they flashed out the history of CLF, in particular the relationship between Jeong Yim and Chan Heung and there is an interesting paper done by the provincial museum on the life and time Jeong Yim.

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/photo/txt/Elucidation-8.html

If you are interested in comparing forms from different branches, there are a whole selection of Keun Po as passed down by Chan Heung, including names and descriptions from the 3 levels.

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/dulihandbu/qianyan.htm

Just hit the numbers at the top and you will get to each of the forms.

Happy research, it is all out there in the www!

EJ

[Kennyfist]

And where did the futsan group get their info from? Calendars anyone? (Remember Nole's comment?)

And where do you think Singapore HSK got their information from?

Didn't you use to say your story of Jeong Yim dying young around 30 and ambushed comes from some elders "by word of mouth" oral "history" (myth?) ?

[hskwarrior]

hey kenny

boy u are slow.

the only difference between the fut san history and singapore fut san hung sing kwoon is that they are not in fut san when jeong yim died. so their teacher didn't know. but the rest of their story is exactly the same. green grass monk and all.

see, if you would shut the f up and do a search on the web, all your questions will be answered.

you attack me with questions, but you have no answers to prove me wrong. and if you are truly that slow, then you are clueless about who i am. keep wondering.

but try and tell me something, stop asking me things. i am not going to give you answers while you write them down and say you did some research.

you're a clown. that's cool. we all have issue's.

[Kennyfist]

Oh, and didn't you use to say chan Heung's descendent/s got Chan Heung's year of birth wrong? Or why should people listen to the grandson?
If you say the man's son and his grandson don't know, then why are you speaking so loudly that someone's direct student should know something? Chan Heung's son not his student? Chan Koon pak's son not Chan koon pak's student?

Another thing, didn't you use to attack Chan Yiu chi about changing date of his grandfathers year of birth to make him look older...? How do we know the futsan group did not CHANGE OR LIE about the "dates" regarding chan ghau sing and jeong yim?

What about agenda of income from tourist attraction?

:rolleyes:

[Sow Choy]

Dates...

CLFNole is right about dates... Most Chinese then followed the lunar calender not the Christian one we all follow, so even with our sifu Lee Koon Hung, we are not sure, even he was not too sure of his birth date because his family at the time did not follow the Christian calender... So if I remember correctly, the family had to figure it out...

So it may even be more likely that there will be alot of confusion...

many of us try to understand dates and times with the western concepts... If you actually learn the language you will see that there is not a real way to even directly translate some things... The feelings are different, so with the concept of time maybe an elder Chinese can shed some light on this subject, because it would be interesting...

Joe

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Quote:"once again, if the chan clan has something that the hung sing kwoon doesn't, it is because jeong yim and chan heung developed their gung fu separately. chan heung stayed in king mui and passed on his knowledge to his kid and other chans.

Jeong yim was involved in the revolution and was teaching his gung fu differently than chan heung. that is why chan heungs clan has things we don't . but there are things exclusive to the hung sing branch that the chan branch doesn't do.
i wonder why that is?"

1) If "because jeong yim and chan heung developed their gung fu separately" then how can YOU HSK claim Jeong Yim is TRUE FOUNDER OR CO-FOUNDER of CLF?

2) "because jeong yim and chan heung developed their gung fu separately"
Is that your excuse for your branch not having noi nim shou? BUT WAIT.......YOU TOLD US THAT JEONG "MASTERED" ALL OF CHAN HEUNG'S TECHNIQUES IN 5 YEARS......THEN WHY NO NOI NIM SHOU?

3) What about the Chan Heung's students who were SENIOR to Jeong yim and came to chan heung BEFORE jeong? If chan heung did teach them noi nim shou, does that mean Jeong DID NOT LEARN NOI NIM SHOU FROM CHAN HEUNG? If so, then does that not refute your claim that "Jeong yim "mastered" ALL OF CHAN HEUNG'S TECHNIQUES in 5 years"?

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

Chan and Jeong ddeveloped their kung fu separately? WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CLAIM THAT JEONG YIM CAME BACK TO CHAN AND "TAUGHT"/SHARED HIS KNOWLEDGE AND THEY WORKED TOGETHER TO DEVELOP CLF?

REMEMBER YOU TOLD US JEONG PUT THE "FUT" IN CLF?

[hskwarrior]

oh my god, shut up dude.

[Kennyfist]

Why? Is it because more and more holes are appearing?

[Sow Choy]

Kennyfist,

Most likely Loi Leem Sao and Oi Leem Sao are in all CLF branches but maybe have a different name... Frank's Sifu is not Chinese so it is possible they have the techniques but with different names... I know alot of names and can speak Cantonese pretty well but if you did not grow up in that culture speaking the language, it can be hard to piece things together...

And as far as special techniques... All this stuff about special techniques is kinda weird to me... I have seen some peoples techniques which are considered advanced or high level, blah blah blah... And they are actually something considered very fundamental in another school...

So if all this internal energy and so and so is so great, the people who actually fight more would be doin alot more internal training... Interal terminology can be sometimes tricky to understand... and in alot of cases external has the same technique & theory but a different term...

The fighters I know who train internal like if for the take downs and when clinching...

But again, our terminology is different in each branch...

maybe another good thread would be to list our terms and techniques....?

Joe

[hskwarrior]

kenny u r a dum a$$

[extrajoseph]

Kennyfist,

I know alot of names and can speak Cantonese pretty well but if you did not grow up in that culture speaking the language, it can be hard to piece things together...

Joe

Hi Joe,

That is very true..

:D

[hskwarrior]

well, we had the culture, at least i have that, but i never wanted to learn how to speak chinese. and since it was never an issue, we just used english terminologies.

like i said many times, i have seen many different masters and most of them approach their gung fu the same way i have. the only difference is that they have the knowledge of the chinese terminology.

i am trying to correct that by teaching the names to my students. they know the english and chinese names.

but most of you guys here have helped me regain that knowledge. so thanks.

peace

[Sow Choy]

Hello ExtraJoseph...

Miss ya...

Please do stick around if your time permits, and I would love to talk with you more about CLF...

If my time permits I will post more...

EJ,

Do you know the poetic names of the CLF movements? Like "Double Dragon shoots out over the water" I would love to get the names for the moves...

Let me know, that would be a great educational post...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

hey joseph,

you took out and erased the post where you quoted joe with my name in it.

did you not want to say my name?

[hskwarrior]

i got a hole for you biatch!

im gonna make ya like swiss cheese. ;)

full of em!


you definetly have diarhea of the mouth.

zip it! no...no...no.no.nononon..nonononono......zipit...z ip it, zipitzipitzipit!



ZIP IT!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I erased the first bit because I did not want to give an impression what Joe said about you is true (you may know all the terms for all I know), but I agreed with him that one needs to know the language and the culture to piece things together properly.

Cheers.

[extrajoseph]

Hello ExtraJoseph...

EJ,

Do you know the poetic names of the CLF movements? Like "Double Dragon shoots out over the water" I would love to get the names for the moves...

Let me know, that would be a great educational post...

Joe

Hi Joe,

There are lots of them, 95 to be exact and they were passed down by Chan Heung Gung in his manual of CLF skills, it is in a chapter called "names for the various techniques of CLF" under the heading "special terms". They are very poetic, mostly describing the natural movement of the five animals in nature.

You have to ask King Mui or Chan Wing-Fat for the details. I only know of their existence.

EJ

[Sow Choy]

Thanks EJ,

Anyone else wanna add to that topic...? The poetic names for CLF techniques... My sifu knows them... But I need to pick his brain and the translations will be funny...

Joe

[extrajoseph]

Hi Joe,

Do you know each of the terms have a short set of movements to go with it? It is not just one pose but a vocab of basic animal techniques. I find that interesting.

For example, you mentioned "double dragon shots out over the water", it is done with dragon footwork to bridge the gap followed by a double bil charp in a swooping sort of attack, blocking and attacking at the same time; repeated left and right.

Yeah, you should try to pick your teacher's brain, cos that is the only way to get some info from him.

EJ

[Sow Choy]

EJ,

I knew that each poem represents a succesion of movements... But I also know that many teachers taught and passed on the arts through these poems... I wonder how much the poem can help one get more expression when executing...

The double dragon movement is the first technique in our Plum Flower Fist form... The left foot steps, the right then steps, you sink the weight with both feet together bending the knees with two twisted panther fists, we call serng yum chop...

Any you remember? Your grasp of the english language is far better than Li Siu Hungs... His version of Fook Fu would be "Yea, you know... you hold this tiger, for the make sure no go somewhere, you know?" ha ha ha... That is why my chinese is good and his english is bad... He is not a good english student... hahaha...

Joe

[extrajoseph]

EJ,

I knew that each poem represents a succesion of movements... But I also know that many teachers taught and passed on the arts through these poems... I wonder how much the poem can help one get more expression when executing...

Joe

Hi Joe,

You know what they say, "jing, chi and shen". The poetic expression is to get us to key into the "shen chi" is a technique and then do it. It may sound poetic, but **** hard work when you have to repeat left and right 20 times in a row and explode every time! I get dizzy just to think about how a dragon should move. :D

BTW, it is a little bit different to Plum Flower Fist, but that is another story...

EJ

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think it's extremely important to know all the names of the technique using Cantonese terminology. I speak Cantonese (my Sifu spoke no English) and a bit of Toi San Wa (when it comes to terminology) We have some different words for some of the techniques, but most are the same.

We don't call our technique "Chin Nau Sau" or "anchor hand", I'm not sure what DFW or others call it. I've heard lot's of names. We call it "Haught Kui" or "Scraping Bridge". This is also the reason why we do this technique dfferent from most other CLF schools. Ours 'scrapes' under the arm similiar to the "Kui Sao" you see in Hung Ga, but faster and looser. If you don't know the terminology, you may not have a reference point for the techniques energy and execution....

I'd be glad to compare terminology with others and see what's similiar/different. So far, most CLF people use all the same words.

Also, when do you guys use "Whaa, Diik, Yick"....or any other sounds? Just curious.....

Learning the Chinese (in our case Cantonese) terms are important, because they describe the 'action' used in each technique. I think a lot of people miss that concept. "Chaap Choih" for instance is to "Stab". That is the energy/action of that technique. It doesn't throw with the same energy as "Ping Choih" or "Pek Choih".

I know the name that we use for almost every technique. I'm sure there are a few I don't know though. If anyone wants help with any....feel free to PM me, my CLF brothers!

[Sow Choy]

Hi LamapaiSifu

We use Ha, Seet, Wa & Yeet, Lee Koon Hung changed to yeet from dik cause of its similarity to the sexual organ located in the lower abdominal area... ;)

Would love to hear some of your terms and descriptions...

From my experience in Northern style, Working with master Chow Keung from Tai Shing Pek Kwar www.ck-kungfu.com

It seems some of the desriptions we use are more common folk or famer type... Like in staff or spear we have the term "Lao Soi" (a move where the stick is over the head slanted with the tip around knee level), like water down the stream? This is how my sifu described that one... EJ, can you give a better explanation?

Chow Keung's terms were more military like... But again, the same moves but interesting where we all have different terms...

Lama for sinking arm we call it "Chum Kiu" but maybe our spelling is off, i just make up the Cantonese spelling as I go, and I speak Cantonese pretty well...

Joe

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Joe,

Sometimes I mix up Cantonese and Toi San-ese terms. In Cantonese, "Clinging Hand" is Poon Sao, Clinging Bridge would obviously be Poon Kiu. In Toi San, Poon is pronounced "Pon", so sometimes, I learned both, sometimes just one.

We say "Chom Kui", which means literally, "Sinking Bridge", so it's not really any different from you.

Are there any hand/foot/elbow/palm/claw techniques that anyone is unsure about? Like I said, I know most, but I'm sure there are some I'm missing...

I'd be glad to fill in the blanks...or give the english translation for some. My classmates and I all speak Cantonese, some of them are fluent in Mandarin and Shanghai - nese as well. We've all spent a lot of time on terminology and the real meanings of the Chinese terms.

I think most people say "Deng Jeung" as in Nailing....we use pressing....I'm sure they are almost similiar in action...

what are everyone's fist seeds? And your blocking or supporting hands? We can all take turns listing them.....

[extrajoseph]

EJ,

I knew that each poem represents a succesion of movements... But I also know that many teachers taught and passed on the arts through these poems... I wonder how much the poem can help one get more expression when executing...

Joe

Hi Joe,

Forgot to tell you that it is not a poem but a four characters phrase and there is only 64 of them, that is 8 X 8 representing the 64 hexagrams.

Not all of them represents a succession of movements, some are just names for a posture, like "Lohan sunning his belly". :D A good jarm-john to practice, it builds up a lot of ging along the backside. Also there is a set called "Chui Lung Sup Ba Gak" made up 18 of them. A "gak" means a configuration of movements.

Have to check with the manuscript to make sure I have given you the right information.

EJ

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What is the technique look like, Lohan Sunning his belly? Is it like Jung Choih with both arms spread, but in a Diu Ma/Cat Stance with a slightly arched back? Just curious.....

[extrajoseph]

Hi Michael,

You can see “lohan sunning his belly” towards the end of “lohan 18 hands”. You are in wide a horse stance, the body fully arched back but still “centrally correct”, your arms wide open and the elbows dropped with the hands in “tiger claws” that acts like balance weight as you go back.

You can do it as a “john” and stay there for a while or you can follow it up with “lau sing tuo yud” or “meteors shooting at the moon”. There is a little trick you can do with the hip that allows you to discharge the “ging” that has built up along your back to “flick” back and shoot out with a double “bil ji” done with an explosive “snap” without hurting yourself.

My old man used to put a candle at the eye level and I have to put it out with the double “bil ji” or “meteors shooting at the moon” after “lohan sunning his belly”. Not easy but that was fun! He says he will take me out to yum-cha if I can do it 3 times in a row the first try each time, I think I only managed to do it once and I was wearing a loose sleeve shirt! I was not a very good student.

:o :rolleyes: :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Joseph,

Oh, I thought you were describing the technique "Lohan Sigh Siin" or Boddisatva suns the corpse. My mistake. :)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Michael,

Us Chinese called Bodhisattva Guanyin and Lohan or Luohan is Arhat, they are two different characters. " Guanyin suns the corpse"? She puts a dead body out to dry, now that is a morbid one! :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The technique's name is indeed: Lohan Sigh Siin. I'm sure I'm just using Boddhisatva and Arhat interchangably. As mentioned the technique uses Diu Ma, hands like Jung Choih and a leaning posture. Some people might confuse it with a drunken technique....

[extrajoseph]

Ahh, you mean "Lohan hanging his cloths to dry", now that has diu ma and jung choih. It's stepping aside to evade, block with pun kiu and counter with a jung choih while leaning and reaching out on one leg in a diu ma, now I get it!
Thanks Michael. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Different technique, no Poon Kiu....Pek before Jung....they probably look the same when finished...I know the technique your speaking of....it's different.

[extrajoseph]

OK, at least we have got the name right and they look the same at the end! :)

[JAZA]

I think JX refers to
http://www.luohan.com/images/Luohan_tecnico/P22.JPG

[extrajoseph]

Yes, that's the posture but his qi is broken cos he has not learned how to follow through with “meteors shooting at the moon”.

Both the elbows and the knees should be bent and he should not drop his head back, which would cut the blood circulation to his head. He has no recoil cos he doesn't know how to store his chi in the first place.

This is large circle stuff, imagine turn that into small circle and you can do sherng yung kiu follow by sheung bil ji with a bang in a Wing Chun stance!

Better stop, I sound like a guy full of himself, don't I? :D

[extrajoseph]

Look at the next picture:

http://www.luohan.com/images/Luohan_tecnico/P23.JPG

and imagine a sheung bil ji or sheung bil charp at the front and you have “meteors shooting at the moon”.

[Kennyfist]

Hi Joseph,
I was right wasn't I ?.....you have deep knowledge of what you do :)

I'm curious about the transition from the jong posture to the lau sing tol yuet....you don't mean the swallow and spit actions of the dantian/hip do you?

Cheers.

[Kennyfist]

Or is it spit and then swallow.......? :)

Cheers.

[extrajoseph]

Always swollow first, then spit! :D

[Kennyfist]

Or is it rise and then suddenly sink?..... :D

[Kennyfist]

Hi Joseph,
His posture has broken qi, especially noticeable with the falling back of the head.
The body has to be as if "one qi" before you can store qi through contraction and expansion of the qi, and unless the "one qi" state is present he cannot generate the recoil. Forcing it would lead to possible injury of back/spine.......

ie if you don't have "one qi" , then how can you contract and expand it to use....?

Please correct me if I've got it wrong......

I like the honesty of your posting.... if I got it wrong then I got it wrong....and you can tell me... :)

Cheers.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Kennyfist,

I have to use Mandarin in my translations of terms and put in the Chinese characters because I don’t know how to say them in Cantonese properly to make them clear.

Chan Heung in his “key to success” or “mi jue” 秘决 to “nei jia” 内家 or internal CLF, talked about the concepts of “xu jing” 蓄劲 and “cheng jing” 乘劲. To “xu” is to store the jing (the dynamic force made by our body and our vital qi) and to “cheng” is to multiply and to “ride” or take advantage of the “jing” 劲.

When we “xu” we breath in and store the qi in our body and then “issue” it on the out breath or “cheng” it to multiply and to take advantage of the stored qi at the same time. This is equivalent to “swallow” and to "spit" that we spoke earlier.

When we “xu” properly, that is with correct postures and movement plus breath, the whole body became one or “he yi” 合一, or like you said “one chi”, and then we can take full advantage of it on the “spit”.

The key to success in "nei jia" CLF is to have the "exact" postures and movements, so we can take advantage of the gravitational force as well as the mass of our body. The correct breathing makes our body behave like a black smith's bellow, suck in and explode out the "jing qi" 劲气 at the same time as we move.

I hope it makes sense to you.

Cheers,

:)

[CLFNole]

This internal stuff you are talking about, can it be used in combat (while moving quickly) or is it more of a standing chi kung type of thing. Don't mean to ask a stupid question its just that most of us have not been exposed to "internal CLF".

Thanks

[Kennyfist]

Hi Joseph,
Thanks for the reply. :)

It makes sense to me, and if one listens closely he may detect the black smiths bellow behind the curtains..... am I right?.....you can tell me plainly if I'm wrong :)

Thanks Joseph. (Grandmaster Joseph :D )

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

There is nothing "esoteric" about "internal" and "external", "external" means it is seen on the outside and "internal" means what lies below and cannot be seen, but the ultimate aim of both is for fighting. It is like building a Formula 1 engine inside the bonnet of a flashy looking car.

You may think you have not come across internal CLF but you have doen it already, otherwise you would not have a car, you just have not pay too much attention to what lies below the surface, that is all. Next time when you do 20 reps of something, slow down 10 of them and do it deliberately with "feelings" and examine what each part of your body is doing and how you are breathing and what you are thinking, try to make them all joined up with a feeling of chi connection even though you are moving slowly, then you would have done "Internal" CLF.

The original nei gong is definitely not for health, it was meant for self defense and how to make us fight more efficiently with less expenditure of energy for maximum result and every styles of MA has both of them, otherwise they could not survive. This "external" and "internal" division was man-made, trying to out do each other in double talks.

We have this misconception even now, Chen Taijiquan is not Taijiquan because it has Fajing, Nei Jia CLF is not CLF because it is too slow and you can't fight with it and if you can't fight with it, then it is not CLF! Worse still, there is some unfound expectation that nei jia is more superior than wei jia. Everyone wants to do Taiji, including me, thinking it must make my CLF better becuase it is nei jia, while all the time we have got the same things.

But if you know the double talk for Daoist thinking: to be able to move fast one must learn to stand still first, to have hard power one must learn to have a soft touch first and to know the internal well one must learn the external first, etc. etc. then you will know they are the two sides of the same coin.

But since we don't really need to fight with the bare fists any more, we turned them into health and healing for the masses (and for sports and entertainment as well) and that is the evolution of CMA in a nutshell.

:D

[Kennyfist]

I would add that maybe it is not some esoteric identity/name of a technique that determines which side of the curtain it is placed, but the how and the why that gives it its status/class....just as it is not what clothes you wear but who it is under the clothes that give the true identity......
Consider the way a technique is "used" and "executed"......You may find the same named technique on either side of the curtain.....just like you can find 2 different persons named "john" but they are not the same person simply because of "name"......
And how you "interpret" /identify as the nim....is it the window lim or the sticking nim when dealing with some curtains......

This should be checked by Joseph for accuracy..... :D

[extrajoseph]

How "external" CLF became "internal" CLF:

A pun is a pun and a charp is a charp.

A pun is no longer a pun and a charp is no longer a charp.

A pun is again a pun and a charp is again a charp!

:D ;) :eek:

[yutyeesam]

Hi CLFNole,

There is nothing "esoteric" about "internal" and "external", "external" means it is seen on the outside and "internal" means what lies below and cannot be seen, but the ultimate aim of both is for fighting. It is like building a Formula 1 engine inside the bonnet of a flashy looking car.

You may think you have not come across internal CLF but you have doen it already, otherwise you would not have a car, you just have not pay too much attention to what lies below the surface, that is all. Next time when you do 20 reps of something, slow down 10 of them and do it deliberately with "feelings" and examine what each part of your body is doing and how you are breathing and what you are thinking, try to make them all joined up with a feeling of chi connection even though you are moving slowly, then you would have done "Internal" CLF.

The original nei gong is definitely not for health, it was meant for self defense and how to make us fight more efficiently with less expenditure of energy for maximum result and every styles of MA has both of them, otherwise they could not survive. This "external" and "internal" division was man-made, trying to out do each other in double talks.

We have this misconception even now, Chen Taijiquan is not Taijiquan because it has Fajing, Nei Jia CLF is not CLF because it is too slow and you can't fight with it and if you can't fight with it, then it is not CLF! Worse still, there is some unfound expectation that nei jia is more superior than wei jia. Everyone wants to do Taiji, including me, thinking it must make my CLF better becuase it is nei jia, while all the time we have got the same things.

But if you know the double talk for Daoist thinking: to be able to move fast one must learn to stand still first, to have hard power one must learn to have a soft touch first and to know the internal well one must learn the external first, etc. etc. then you will know they are the two sides of the same coin.

But since we don't really need to fight with the bare fists any more, we turned them into health and healing for the masses (and for sports and entertainment as well) and that is the evolution of CMA in a nutshell.

:D

Very very well said!
You should write this up in Chinese calligraphy, make a scroll out of it, and sell it through tigerclaw.com. I'd buy it!!
Seriously tho, this has to be one of my favorite posts of all time. Thank you.

[CLFNole]

Sisuk:

I understand what you are talking about and do what you said in my practice. The thing I was asking about is the posturing I believe its called the 18 Lohan Chi Kung. Is that really necessary to develop or make yourself more aware, if you will, the "internal" side of things.

Don't you think through practice and breaking down each movement to try to achive "perfect" movement would get the same results?

As long a you try to focus and using your body as one you would have both internal and external. Obviously the ultimate goal is 50% internal and 50% external; however in this day and age I think that would be difficult to attain but to strive for it is good. Everyone has some internal when they practice and the longer you practice the more aware you become of it when you look close.

[Sow Choy]

EJ,

Thank you very much for that post on nei jia... I practice alot like that and teach my students that way, more reps and holding the postures for a 2-3 second count while really focusing on movement and intention... Breath also...

Great post, elaborate more if you have time... As I am always to hear how our CLF family in the different areas and generations practice to attain the most achievement from their training... As I said before I see internal and external as both... So to hear your comments is quite new for me...

Again terminology is differentfor yet the same thing... People here internal terms and start thing David Copperfield or Carridine are gonna pop out...

Thanks again...

Joe

[Kennyfist]

Shooting an arrow with a bow,.......one cannot "store" and then "release" for the arrow to "shoot" if the bow is broken in the first place..... It is not about "forms" vs lian kung exercises....if you don't understand even with the form or postures you may not achieve what you don't know your looking for.......its requires correct understanding and often this requires "transmision".......

:D

[Kennyfist]

A child from conception in the mothers womb to adulthood goes through a process and the event of birth acts like a curtain.....separating two phases of a child's life........there may be a major key that connects the inside with the outside and it may be advantageous to "know" what the key is, "find" it and then "use" it....

Ultimately one might reach a stage where there is no difference between the internal and the external...they become one and not 50% of each.......it then becomes your choice how you use ....... a once obviously reality ....ONE......

:D

[Kennyfist]

The dantian contains "the sea of qi"......
If you think about a gas tank, you have to learn how to fill it with gas, then fill it with gas before the gas tank and the "gas" inside it can be used to "power" an engine......

:D

[extrajoseph]

“I understand what you are talking about and do what you said in my practice. The thing I was asking about is the posturing I believe its called the 18 Lohan Chi Kung. Is that really necessary to develop or make yourself more aware, if you will, the "internal" side of things.”

Hi CLFNole,

Interesting question, “Do we need specific internal forms like Lohan 18 Hands”? My answer is, “It depends.”

Before we can truly appreciate the mean, we have to explore the extremes, we may chose to start with the so-called external and then make our way towards the internal or vice versa.

Now we can do it with only one form or no form at all, like you mentioned, if we have good guidance and patience. But most of the times we don’t and people in general find it boring.

So we went the other way and polarized the two extremes with wei jia and nei jia forms, before we find wisdom in the middle, and the structure of the CLF forms is geared to do this.

For a person like me, who like to compartmentalize and to structuralize, I need to study the distinct external and internal forms before I can say, “Oh they are really the same, just 2 sides of the one coin”.

I am the same with woman; I just have to go out with many of them, of different colours, shapes and sizes, before I can settle down.

But you may be different and able to do it with what you have now and move forward, it all depend on the person and what is available.

:D

[hskwarrior]

jospeh,

at your age, how do you keep up with all these mult-ethnic women types your dating.

Viagra is your best friend?

100 or 50 mg's?

you big ol' player you!


not only is he a clf know-it-all, (HAHA) he is a clf pimp right along with us young whippersnappers.

:D i lkie that jospeh!

[Sow Choy]

EJ,

You are too funny... Are you married, divorced, or just still on the prowl at your age??? It wouldn't surprise me if you are on the prowl... CLF men can be predators... hahaha

Liked your last post too, and I feel the same in the sense that you need to feel or understand one extreme and the other in order to see them as a whole... With me being younger, I am usually looking at ways the forms exaggerate movements to understand the proper preparation, execution & recovery as well as how they can help you in many ways when fighting...

As for power & stamina, at my age I enjoy the hard working sweat it out kind of training... I like to practice in the sun, actually in our schools parking lot here in Florida... With weights on the ankles & wrists, metal staffs (short & long)...

But I realise as I get older, I will have to change that way of training... I also enjoy Ngan Gong (Conditioning) it hurts, but I have such a great difference in the toughness of my bones...

I have had experience in Qigong & Tai Chi, but my sifu Lee Koon Hung is no longer with us... So it does intrigue me to here of any practice of Iron shirt, palm, etc... or any other Qigong type training regardless of what style, ya know what I mean...

What always concerns me is results and goals more or less...

Could you describe to me what your training was like when you were younger, what you focused on and the results you saw from the different types of training...

And also as you got older what changes you made to still get the most from your training...

Or if you know of someone you respected that you saw go through the years, perhaps your father... or another master....

Trying to soak up as much as I can from your generation...

Thank you again...

Joe

[extrajoseph]

To Frank and Joe,

"Lohan sunning his belly" is really good for ejeculation control, if you know the little tricks. Now that is how I managed the multi-ethnic diversity in my life, if you relly want to know!

Why are all CLF men have nothing but sex in their brain? Must be the way we charge in and charge out to bridge the gap...

:D :D :D

[Sow Choy]

HAHAHAHA!!!

Joseph... siu sum di... mo da fay gey... ming mm ming baak???


Lee Koon Hung used to remind us of the 10 rules of CLF... especially #4

before the weekend he would say...

Don't do too much #4...

And when CLFNole was single and we all were womanless... he said he wanted to teach us Iron Palm... and was laughing...

Then he said we could not have sex for 6 months or more and knew we were all single...

I said... "Sifu, could you hurry it up, I don't plan on being like this for long..."

Then Gene started framing me with the "Got QI"girls... :P

Joe

[hskwarrior]

hahaha....


hom sup lo big brother jo-seph. :D

[Ou Ji]

Wow! CLF get's the wimmins!!!???

Guess I better get back to working on Sup Ji.