CLF Grandmaster Chui Kwong Yuen

[kei lun]

I just thought Id post a video I found of Grandmaster Chui Kwong Yuen. His name pops up often but I think few people have ever seen him.
The video was shown on a TV show in Hong Kong about 2 years ago. Its just a short clip filmed in his home and school, he explains a bit about CLF and some of his students demonstrate some movements. The music is a bit annoying but I thought some may find it interesting.

Enjoy!

http://www.rthk.org.hk/special/invincible/media/martialart06.asx

[extrajoseph]

Thanks for showing the clip, Chui has got pure Ngoi Nim Sau - "outside of the curtains" hands.

[kei lun]

Im not sure what that means but thanks. Grandmaster Chui is in his mid-70's now, still quite active in teaching and performs from time to time as well.

[hskwarrior]

Jospeh, yes pls, can you exlain "out side of the curtain hands?

And as some of us know Chuy Kwon Yuen is the son of the elder Chui Chueng.

Some of the information on my litttle webpage about Cai Dezhong (GGM) comes from him, which is printed in his 2001 publication "Choy Lee Fut Chui Cheung Kung Fu students Association." (Which by the way i eliminated the parts of my article which focus on our ugly historical debates, and now only call it the legend of the GGM).
some of you guys should remember him from the old Real Kung Fu magazines.

I have him on tape in malaysia (or Singpore) performing ping kuen on stage. after him came the Elder Poon Sing. whom to me still looks very strong in his advanced years. "wouldn't want to get hit by him, definetely.

peace.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Since you are one of us, no matter how crazy you can be, I still have time for you, brother.

The world is one big village now, you can open doors just by an email or just by knocking.

There are thousands of CLF prctitioners all over the world and the lineage of each branch is still very strong. Something unusual for a style of CMA perhaps with the exception of Chen Taiji.

Instead of sharing information and break down the isolation and treachery of our past, we (meaning the electronic generation) put our heads in the sand and ignore the vast knowledge and tradition of this fine art. Soon, these old guys will all drop dead and all we have left is an empty shall.

Frank, you go to Futshan regularly, instead of dropping by King Mui, you chose to ignore it out of your lopped sense of loyality. Do you know the old guys in China they talked to each other egularly?

There are video of all shades of CLF, look how players from each branch move , especially the shape of their limbs and the way the body moves and you will notice the subtle difference between a Ngoi Nim Sau and a Ngei Nim Sau. Guys in Futshan or King Mui don't move like Chui.

That was the way they did it to keep out the lazy and the school jumping students (those who can't wait to set up their own branch) but there is no dedication to the art or keeping secrets any more, so all you have to do is to be humble enough to ask and we can't even do this to each other.

Even we cannot do it or want to do it, it is good to know the difference. We will get a good sense of how the art evolved from the past to the present.

If you still don't know what I am talking about, then I will elaborate, it is very easy to see when we are told what to look for.

I give you a hint, look at Fu-Pow's clip, although he is quite sloppy and not in very good shape, he moves differently to Chui and his students. Can you tell me in what way?

EJ

[Fu-Pow]

I give you a hint, look at Fu-Pow's clip, although he is quite sloppy and not in very good shape, he moves differently to Chui and his students. Can you tell me in what way?

EJ

Please, do tell. We're anxiously awaiting YOUR CLIP as well, so you can "show" us the difference.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu Pow,

I don't have to show you my clip, there are better ones on the market already and you can buy them cheaply by the truck load.

Try Chen Yong-Fa's King Mui footage and see the difference between the Bak Sing, Hung Sing and Great Sage Hung Sing.

I am not talking about who is better or who is stronger and who is going to win a fight, I am talking about the techical differences here.

You mean to tell me you don't know how differently you move to Chiu?

The outstretched arm of Chiu is stiff but at least you try to be a ****y looking whip! Read some Daoist classic and you will know only the dead is stiff. Chiu only move his upper body but at least you try to move the lot abide sloppily and "cheung kiu da ma" does not mean one stretches ones arms and legs out like a virgin full of holes! And then there are the hands, in particular the circles made by the hands...

These are just starting points and I can go on and on, but I am not about to show you my clip cos it won't help, you only see the external and not what is "behind the curtains". That has to be told and if you want to continue to make progress, then you'd better find out.

EJ

[CLFNole]

EJ:

Give Fu-Pow a break, afterall the guy is 6'6" and I don't know too many players at that size. ;)

I know what your saying here. With me first thing I look at is the shoulders then the waist. Supple shoulders and a flexible waist tend to translate into loose smooth movements. Everyone plays their CLF differently, so are more external and others more internal.

I have seen some of Chan Wing Fat's students perform and you will see both ways there as well. So it comes down to the player.

Glad to see your back.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

You have been around this place for a long time, haven't you? :)

There is more to it than the loose body and the supple limbs but never mind, we will leave the whole thing at that.

Sorry Fu Pow, didn't mean to be so critical, just want to push a bit harder for someone who has great potential.

I'll be gone now that Frank has quiet down, cheers.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

joseph, don't go far away, brother. :D

[hskwarrior]

i've been quiet because i've been playing around with my little website, adding new things.


check it out and tell me what you think.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I like the photo of you with your godson, it shows the soft side of you.

I can't go very far, whenever you open your mouth about history, someone will contact me and ask me to get over here!

Best wishes to you my bro., just take it easy will you? There are too many old guys like us around! :D

EJ

[bean curd]

"There are too many old guys like us around! "

there certainly are. friends back to say hello - how nice

peace to you all

B/C

[hskwarrior]

and look, bean curd's back in the fray of things. :D

joseph, thanks, thats my little man there.


you big og's you!

[hskwarrior]

I was just watching the clip again, and joseph asked me to compare how fu pow moves as to chui kwan yuen.

Well, fu pow has that lkh flow, but there is no life in his hands. or in other words, the intent behind his techniques is lacking life (Strength?)

chui kwan yuen and his students, even when having soft hands you can see the intent of the technique.

and that intent, life, and power i try to install in my students everyday during basics.

[kei lun]

Chui Kwong Yuen

[hskwarrior]

oops, kwong :o


:o sorry

[hskwarrior]

anyways,


our way of executing techniques and the essence behind it just as in the video clip is how we train at our school. strongly the same emphasis behind the moves.

[CLFNole]

My guess would be your training would be similar to Choy Kwong Yuen's. Since you are following the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon with a little digging you would discover that he is one of the big people behind that whole school. So it would make sense that it might look similar.

To me watching his students although they have power they are too tight especially in the shoulders. Its more arm power rather than loose power generated from the whole body.

Comparing all of our different styles is pointless because everyone will always think their way is the right way.

[hskwarrior]

nole,

the way i see it, is there power exits through their hands, but i kinda like that fluid but tight flow.

i don't see it as being stiff. i'll look again.

peace

[CLFNole]

Look at the shoulders, too me they look tight. On the students Sifu Choy really doesn't show much so I am just talking about the students.

[extrajoseph]

Yes, he's got tight shoulders, stiff legs and stiff arms.

[CLFNole]

XJ:

Me thinks you and Choy Sifu don't exchange christmas cards. :D

I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on Loi Leem Sow.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

I thought his name is Chui, not Choy; otherwise he will claim he is a descendant of Choy Fook, then we will be in real trouble! :D

I cannot speak too much on Ngei Lim Sow, cos I am not authorized and it is a one to one transmission. But you are experienced enough to have an idea of what I am talking about. ;)

EJ

[CLFNole]

What I really wanted to know is... is this something akin to the Chan Family only or is it seen throughout CLF?

Also have you by chance seen the demo Chan Wing Fat was involved with. I think it may have been in China but I am not sure, there is a huge red curtain in the background talking about spreading CLF to the 4 corners of the world (or something like that).

Anyhow in the beginning there is an older sifu (not real old may in his 50s) that does a nice staff form with a really long staff. He has really good power in the staff and you really notice it in the tip. I was wondering if you knew who he is and what the name of the set is?

Thanks.

[kei lun]

In the video the students who performed were all quite young and as he is getting on in years doesnt put such serious training on them. So no, they didnt have much power to show. Grandmaster Chui's serious students are mostly overseas teaching in America, Canada, etc.

The CLF in Futshan should be, more or less, what and the way CKY teaches it. He is quite active with the Futshan Kwoon and has helped quite alot to get the Kwoon in the shape it is currently in.

He is also involved in the Buk Sing Kwoon, teaching their materials as well, as his father Chui Cheung was a student of Tam Sam.

:)

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

You are an experienced teacher and you know it is not possible to teach a large number of students qualitatively. The limited energy of a teacher has to be conserved and focused onto a much smaller number of talented and dedicated student and a teacher is lucky enough to get half a dozen in his life time. So in the end it is a one to one transmission for a chosen few and it has been this way since Chan Heung's time, usually they are full time and making a living out of MA. BTW, my teacher was and Chan Wing Fat is, but I am not, one of the chosen ones and I am not at the gathering you mentioned, so I cannot comment.

EJ

[CLFNole]

I thought it was more of an individual thing but I wasn't sure if it was something specifically taught or something more or less developed over time. If I can read between the lines very few players have "loi leem sow".

[extrajoseph]

Kei Lun,

CKY has a bit of money and he pours it into Futsan right from the beginning, so he more or less runs the place, but I am not so sure about Guangzhou Buk Sing, they are a different lot and they have their own money.

Monet talks these days, not kung fu .

:)

[extrajoseph]

I thought it was more of an individual thing but I wasn't sure if it was something specifically taught or something more or less developed over time. If I can read between the lines very few players have "loi leem sow".

I am not sure with other branch, but within the Great Sage Hung Sing which I have some knowledge of, when it gets to a certain level, it is as silent as a secret society. It has to be that way for the art to survive and I am an outsider as much as you are in this regard. The truth is, I only know enough to talk but none to show. :D

[kei lun]

Uh... okay. In not completely sure as to the depth of CKY's involvement in the Buk Sing Kwoon, but he is part of it.

Im not sure why you brought money into it though. CKY does put alot of money into the HSK and all the books he publishes, but the money is mostly donations from those in his association. I know that Chan Yong Fa has quite the financial resources as well, so do many others for that matter. No matter.

[extrajoseph]

Kei lun,

So I hope you can appreciate the political landscape and why Chui wants to change history and make Jeong the co-founder or co-creator of CLF. They want to de-throne Chan Heung and make Futsan the birthplace of CLF and that gave King Mui people the s..ts!

What gives me the sh..ts is that they manipulate big hearted and booffy Gwailo like Frank to do the running. Planting little seeds here and there over a period of time and get the foreigners to do the soldiering and testing the water for them. I hate this sort of low line behaviour, it is the work of a two-headed snake!

Why don't they just make Futsan the best place to study CLF and leave history alone? But never mind, that is my grim.

:eek:

[CLFNole]

XJ:

I am not sure if I am correct but isn't the Fut San Kwoon relatively new. I never heard my Sifu Lee Koon Hung ever mention it and my other Sifu Li Siu Hung only mentioned it maybe in the past 5-6 years.

Did it just pop up or was it there just not well known?

[kei lun]

extrajoseph,

Looks like you had something to get off your chest there, your no better than Frank! I have trained a very long time with CKY and the subject of history never came up with us. Those who are on the Chan side of the debate often think of CKY as a manipulator who does and says what he wants. Thats why I posted the clip, just so people can put a face to the man and see what he is like! CKY is a very respectful man and has spent his whole life trying to build and promote CLF!

I dont think anyone manipulated Frank, I think he is just taking it all upon himself!
And by the way, "gwailo" is an offensive word!

clfnote:

The HSK has been around for quite a long time, but I believe it was closed during the cultural revolution 1966-76, and remained closed until the 90's. Dont quote me on that but thats what I think was the case.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

It just popped up as part of Futsan's tourism drive to make it the home of Hung Kuen (Wong Fei-Hung) and CLF (Jeong Yim), a kind of Shaolin place in Guandong.
Before that, the main attraction for CLF was in Sun Hui, Kong Moon and Canton.

Chui didn't have that much of a reputation in the CLF circle in Hong Kong, but he has money and when one has money one wants prestige. He saw an openning in Futsan and he went for it. It was a mutual attraction and provided him with a base in China for his overseas students.

EJ

[CLFNole]

Some of my kung fu brothers went to Fut San and they did say the Wong Fei Hung museum was nice but they didn't have much to say about the hung sing kwoon other than they visited it.

[kei lun]

I would say that CKY has a pretty good reputation in Hong Kong, thats why he is one of the CLF Union heads. He doesnt have money, but he has alot of financial support. He wants prestige? Thats ridculous!!! CKY rarely apears in magazines, seldom performs, doesnt put himself in the spotlight much at all!
His organization is called Chui Cheung Athletic Association, naming it after his father and not himself! He promotes Hung Sing Choi Lei Fut and his fathers legacy, but not himself!
Which of his students use Futshan as a base? I know most all of his students and they all train with him, in Hong Kong! Alot of untrue vindictive statements you made there!

[extrajoseph]

QUOTE=kei lun]extrajoseph,

Looks like you had something to get off your chest there, your no better than Frank! I have trained a very long time with CKY and the subject of history never came up with us. Those who are on the Chan side of the debate often think of CKY as a manipulator who does and says what he wants. Thats why I posted the clip, just so people can put a face to the man and see what he is like! CKY is a very respectful man and has spent his whole life trying to build and promote CLF!

I dont think anyone manipulated Frank, I think he is just taking it all upon himself!
And by the way, "gwailo" is an offensive word!

[/QUOTE]

Hi Kei Lun,

Yes I have something to get off my chest, especially after the meeting of the elders in King Mui a couple of years back. Chui was manipulative and insincere and frankly I didn't like the guy at all! But that is my opinion.

I used the term "Gwailo" in an affectionate way, but if you think it is an offensive word, then I am sorry I have hurted your sensitivity.

I think posting a clip of your teacher without mentioning that he is your teacher and hoping people will praise him is pretty insincere and quite offensive! Also never declare you hands until now is insincere and offensive, so you are not that much better than me and Frank! :mad:

EJ

[extrajoseph]

I would say that CKY has a pretty good reputation in Hong Kong, thats why he is one of the CLF Union heads. He doesnt have money, but he has alot of financial support. He wants prestige? Thats ridculous!!! CKY rarely apears in magazines, seldom performs, doesnt put himself in the spotlight much at all!
His organization is called Chui Cheung Athletic Association, naming it after his father and not himself! He promotes Hung Sing Choi Lei Fut and his fathers legacy, but not himself!
Which of his students use Futshan as a base? I know most all of his students and they all train with him, in Hong Kong! Alot of untrue vindictive statements you made there!


Kei Lun,

You sai Chui "doesnt put himself in the spotlight much at all!" So why was he appearing on a TV show? And head of the CLF Union! No he does not want prestigeat all and he only do it for his father sake! Give me a break!

Oh no, no, no..., I am not about to get into a slinging match about your teacher, it is a no-win situation, so go along and think what you like and I do the same.

Cheers.

EJ

[kei lun]

Chui Kwong Yuen is not my teacher, he is my Sigung! I never posted that clip hoping that anyone would praise and admire him, just thought Id let some people see who the man was, thats all!

Never declaring my hands? I believe that Ive mentioned in the past that Im from Hung Sing Kwoon, just never said my depth of involvement. :) And if not, I definately didnt try to hide it.

Sorry to hear your encounter with CKY was an unpleasant one. Not much comment about that, I wasnt there and dont know what occured.

[kei lun]

The TV show that he appeared on was called "Sifu Talks", in which they interviewed 8 different Sifu's. They came to him. Some of the other clips were good as well having Chow Keung, Leung Ting, and several others. If anyone would like I can post those too!

extrajoseph:

You started the slinging match, not me. It is a no-win situation and I dont care to get into it. I will believe what I think, though I dont believe I made any strong statements regarding what I think!

[extrajoseph]

Kei Lun,

Do you see all these argument on and off the forum in the last 3 years amongst members of the CLF family? We fought like cats and dogs and we did it in China as well. It is the result of your Sigung promoting the idea that Ching Cho was Cai De-Zhong and Jeong Yim co-founded CLF with Chan Heung.

Chui's father never had the idea, why is he doing it now? What is the point in changing history? Everyone knows Jeong Yim was an outstanding disciple of Chan Heung and together with others they made CLF what it is today. Why would your Sigung want to destroy all this and put us at logged head with each other?

He made things up and he made them up badly, but why?

What do you think?

EJ

[Ben Gash]

Kei Lun, the videos are all actually listed on the pinned video compilation thread on the main forum.

[kei lun]

I have seen the arguments of course, but I just thought it was because of you and Frank! I mean would it have escalated so much if you too werent involved?

Dont ask me what I think, I never got into those arguments before and am not going to start now! Why? Because I dont care, I really dont! And I dont think that I need to. Im quite happy to have a good teacher who trained me well, and the opertunity to train with my Sigung and some other colleagues. All the time there was never any talk of the history.
Whatever the history is, whoever made the style up, knowing it wont change the way I train and feel about CLF!

You guys want to argue then go ahead, but Im not going to get involved!

[kei lun]

Ben Gash:

Ive never seen that part of the forum but will check it out. Thanks! :)

[Kennyfist]

If Hsk jumps into the scene and makes PUBLICALLY wild claims which he cannot support with evidence, would it be reasonable if he's story was PUBLICALLY ANALYSED AND CHALLENGED ?

BTW I DO NOT FIND PURE NGOI NIM SHOU ADMIRABLE.
HINT: SOME SOURCES INDICATE THERE IS REASON WHY YOU MAY NOT FIND NOI NIM SHOU IN JEONG YIM LINEAGE (IS CHUI PURE JEONG YIM LINEAGE?)

EXTERNALLY LOOK AT THE LINE OF MOVEMENT OF LIMBS, WHEN THE INSIDE AND THE OUTSIDE COORDINATE YOU MAY SEE (MAYBE SUBTLE) INDICATORS BUT MAYBE THE MAIN TRICK IS TO LISTEN CLOSELY TO DETECT THE HAPPENINGS "BEHIND THE CURTAIN".

[extrajoseph]

Hi Kennyfist,

In these debates you are a voice of reason, but it is hard to respond to something that is obvious and self- evident.

I read your posts with an inner smile. Thanks.

:)

[hskwarrior]

kenny fist reminds me of you joseph

[Kennyfist]

Hi Kennyfist,

In these debates you are a voice of reason, but it is hard to respond to something that is obvious and self- evident.

I read your posts with an inner smile. Thanks.

:)

Hi Joseph,
No need to thank me. I enjoy a lot of your posts. You are my favourite member on this forum.
Stay around. :)

Thanks.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Kennyfist,

I am not sure if I will, better to practice more and talk less.

Thanks any way, whoever you are.

:)

[hskwarrior]

hahahahahahahaha.......kennyfist......hahahahahaha hahahahaha
:D :D :eek: :D :D :eek: :eek: :D :eek:


kennyfist has a man-crush.............. :eek:

[JAZA]

Joseph,

If the concept you are talking, anyway related to kei lun sao.?

Thnks,

Jaza

[T. Cunningham]

extrajoseph,

Looks like you had something to get off your chest there, your no better than Frank! I have trained a very long time with CKY and the subject of history never came up with us. Those who are on the Chan side of the debate often think of CKY as a manipulator who does and says what he wants. Thats why I posted the clip, just so people can put a face to the man and see what he is like! CKY is a very respectful man and has spent his whole life trying to build and promote CLF!



The Chan Family has made it a point to stay out of debates of this nature even when it was brought to one of the Family websites. Sifu has nothing to gain or prove by joining the argument.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Jaza,

Yes and no, you can do kei lun seo in ngoi lim as well as noi lim seo fa, but usually by the time you get to do kei lun soe you are already advanced enough to get a glimpse of what noi lim seo fa is all about. On the surface the two seo fa is not that much different, but closer inspection of the way you move and when in contact, you will know the difference.

The easiest way is to say noi lim seo is internal CLF but that again is not exactly true, because it is assumed that you have the internal connection already but train deeper into the way the body and the limbs move in a most economical and efficient way.

For example, the circle is smaller, the body more supple and the chi is delivered more efficiently when and where it is required. Power is only exploded when the time and place is right. You still have the same watch, but it is completely taken apart, overhaulled and put back again, if you know what I mean. It is not about doing more forms, it is about details and refinements.

I use Chui's video for example again, he said CLF should be done like a rope with a weight tied to it, that is fine for a beginner and for ngoi lim seo. Noi lim seo tries to create a flexible hose that can be filled with chi with a weight tied to it and the weight is not a dead weight either, so the qi is never broken in any part of the body and there is chi control in the rope as well as the weight, and you can use it like a whip and/or a hammer at the same time.

He also said in CLF we don't drop or relax the elbows like they do in noi gar kuen, that is true only for ngoi lim seo. In noi lim seo fa the whole body is relaxed and the elbows never locked, the knees stiffened or pushed over the toes like the way he does it. As a result, the yum charp and yung charp showed in the video are slow and awkard and their movements are full of holes, with the centre line exposed and the vital parts not covered.

Ngoi lim seo has chang kiu da ma, noi limp seo has dun kiu siu ma as well, so to say CLF is done only with chang kiu da ma showed that Chiu knows gnoi lim seo and not noi lim seo and that is true in general of the buk sing branch.

I am going to get some flakes from the buk sing guys now, but what the hell, they can still win fights with just ngoi lim seo (and they do!). It is not about winning, it is about winning with the minimal effort.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

The Chan Family has made it a point to stay out of debates of this nature even when it was brought to one of the Family websites. Sifu has nothing to gain or prove by joining the argument.

Thanks Cunningham,

I have been trying to tell them I don't speak for the Chan Family for years. I speak for myself but they won't listen and keep associate me with you guys.

No more questions, folks and I am out of here before another storm breaks...

:D

[JAZA]

Joseph,

Thanks for your answer.

I can't say I fully understand it, but I think now I have a better idea :o .

Keep around, you and Frank are like the thesis and antithesis giving life to this forum :D

[T. Cunningham]

Thanks Cunningham,

I have been trying to tell them I don't speak for the Chan Family for years. I speak for myself but they won't listen and keep associate me with you guys.

No more questions, folks and I am out of here before another storm breaks...

:D

XJ,

To quote the great peace maker Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?" That being said, I very much enjoy your posts and can see the experience and knowledge. I agree with Kennyfist. You should stick around.

Todd

[extrajoseph]

Hi Cunningham,

I'm amazed how displined you Chan family members are, Frank can be really outrageous sometimes. It shows Chan Wing-Fat knows how to "guan gar" (manage the family). I am impressed.

I'll stick around as long as I get some fun out of it. :D

[T. Cunningham]

Joseph,

Thank you. Just trying to exercise good mo duk. Besides, we have nothing to prove or disprove so no need to get involved in arguments. People will say and do as they please.

Todd