What Kung-fu for me?

[Martial Joel]

Hey,
Guys i've used the search and found nothing relating to my question (that, and i'm pretty useless with the search) anyhow i've been lookin at Kung-Fu recently and i don't know what style to do, i want to learn a style with kicks, punches and self defense, i was lookin at Shaolin Kung-Fu, but i don't think there is anywhere in the whole of the Uk were it is taught, so have u guys and girls got any suggestions. Sorry if this question is irrelavant

Thanks
Joel

p.s i would also be up for some spiritual

[David Jamieson]

pretty much any style of martial arts will contain kicks, punches and self defense.

here's a useful tidbit to help you with your search:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/schoolguide.php

good luck

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

so you want someone who's never seen you, never judged your physical competance to decide for you what your aptitude is?

it doesn't matter how uncoordinated you are. You can learn any style. it's just a matter of dilligence to your practice. if you learn a style's preforms and practice them in the morning, afternoon and before bedtime you'll be better off than the person who practices only when they feel like it.

if you are just getting into martial arts then start with the Yang Tai Chi Chuan 80+ manuever form (some have it at 85, 86,88 but it's all the same form). it will begin to train you for traditional chinese arts. it is a practice that changes with you as you become more competant. it is also a nice balance for just about every other style of cma. you can even do a pilotese type workout with it. it is a practice you can take anywhere in the world and still find someone to teach your dog new tricks.

once you get your practice down to at least 8minutes (the slower the better) you'll be ready to take on any other art that strikes your fancy.

a style that is a really nice compliment to tai chi chuan is tai chi Mei Hua tang lang. tai chi Mei hua tang lang is a mantis style that incorporates tai chi chuan as a practice method in the demonstrations that i've seen. it should be noted that tai chi mei hua is not a tai chi chuan type style: even though it is really a fast style it uses the tai chi chuan practice of slow and deliberate to build muscle memory, strength, speed, accuracy and fluidity. tai chi chuan is really not even part of the practice for tai chi mei hua but it is well suited for that kind of foundation as the instructions are performed slow like tai chi chuan. it is a mean a55 kicking art to be played as hard and as fast as you can reasonably master.

there is Lau gar all over southern england, especially in london. hung and lau gar are part of the shaolin family of styles. there's a hybrid shaolin-do in the north somewhere, but i have forgotten it's name.

[Wong Ying Home]

Where in England are you located ??

[Martial Joel]

I'm located in the north east of england, just in middlesbrough

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

before the forum went through it's changes theree was a large discussion about the dirth of cma in the northeast of england. i'm affraid you'll have to invest in some videos. there are some guys along the coast, but they like to keep it quiet.

[Mega_Fist]

p.s i would also be up for some spiritual

If you're after spiritual then I'm your man. I practise philosophies based on ancient practices so feel free to ask any questions.

[Martial Joel]

does anybody know if there, and where there is any Lau Gar in the North East? Or any Shaolin -Do or are there just rumours about this?

[PlumDragon]

My experience is that you can make any martial art as spritual or not, as you want it to be. Styles like wing chun, which have no real spritual essence can be integrated to such paths--SLT is thought of as a form that is quite malleable to various methods of training, while a system like Northern Shaolin will give you a large amount of curriculum based solely on development on many levels; learning to fight sometimes seems to be a "side-effect" of the health exercises, etc. But, IMO, it is up to you to tailor it somewhat to your needs.

There is lots of martial arts instruction available in the UK...My recommendations:

- Alex Kozma is in the UK and teaches bagua and xing yi. Ive heard nothing but good about him.
- Lau Gar is currently very popular in the UK. Stan Brown teaches Lau Gar in London. I have a phone number if youd like it, PM me.
- James Sinclair teaches wing chun in the UK area, and is purportedly quite good. http://wwww.ukwingchun.com
- David Rogers teaches hop gar in Bedford.
http://www.risingcrane.co.uk/
- The Schools section at Dragons List has a pretty good list of other school in the UK, check it out.
- You can also try posting in the "Request a Teacher" section at Empty Flower; there are several UK practicioners in that area.

Hope this helps! ;)

EDIT: Id stay away from Shaolin-do. While I dont want to say that it is or isnt real or good, etc...I do know that it has a shady history, and jsut about any forum on the net you go to will had a lengthy thread on the strange background from shaolin-do. It may be an excellent school, but I dont think I would gamble my hard-earned money at a school that appeared to have historical inaccuracies and is constantly fighting for its reputation...

[Martial Joel]

Thanks for that, theres about 4 Lau Gar Schools up the road from me, so i might check them out, i might learn it until i'm 18, but i'm desperate to learn Shaolin Kung-Fu and Wushu.

The hop gar in bedford looks good, is it really the only place out of China that teaches the full discipline, also what style did Jackie Chan actually learn?

[Chief Fox]

Search for a great teacher not a great art or style. A good teacher makes all the difference.

Also, FYI, Wushu is more gymnastics and dance more so than deffence.

[PlumDragon]

Also, FYI, Wushu is more gymnastics and dance more so than deffence.
Not necessarily...Nan Shaolin wuzu quan (wushu chuan) is combatively very real, and far from gymnastics.

*Modern* wushu is gymnastic. Wushu is just a general term that has come to be seen as dance over the years. Point being: Just because a school claims to teach wushu does not necessarily mean it will be gymnastics--It just means that there is a very real chance of it. So go check the school out and see for yourself before discounting it.

Also, perhaps modern wushu is what the guy wants to learn, and theres nothign wrong with that.

[SPJ]

What is good for you may not be good for me and vice versa.

"If it ain't fit, it ain't your shoe."

We all have to find out what is the best for us.

I started with Tan Tui and Shuai Jiao.

Best of luck in your search.

:)

[PangQuan]

Modern wushu is not really a bad thing to have.

In addition to the northern and southern kung fu styles represented at our school, there is also a light addition of modern wushu.

Reaching the state that is physically required to perform much of the more modern wushu techniques is a good bonus for any martial artist.

The flexability, coordination, strength and balance that are the strong foundation with any modern wushu practitioner will only boost your existing or developing martial styles effeciency.

We dont strongly practice modern wushu, but it is present. I enjoy the arial moves myself, though I am more akin to traditional styles, I do notice the addition that modern wushu has made to my martial arts as a whole.

[SPJ]

Most of the styles have Wushu forms nowadays.

Wushu forms are composite of old forms and plus flashy moves.

For instance, Ba Ji Wushu intermediate form is from Ba Ji Dan Da or one man drill etc.

Tai Chi 27 and 42 forms are composite of Wu, Sun, Chen, Yang styles etc.

Chen Tai Chi Wushu 48 forms are shortened Chen Fa Ke Xin Jia etc.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

does anybody know if there, and where there is any Lau Gar in the North East? Or any Shaolin -Do or are there just rumours about this?

i know they're there. i just don't remember the names of the towns or the gwoons. there is (or was) lau gar about 75 or 90 miles up the coast from the furthest reaches of london. but he joined the mei hua guys who were near to him. it was a small rural town between two other coastal rural towns. one 15 miles one direction the other 25 miles the other direction. sorry, but that's the best i can do. the mei hua guys are in the nearer by town that's kind of a periphery for them: they're more inland and to the southwest of that area off a main highway. the town is also west of the main highway. does that help any?

the lau gar guy met the mei hua guys in a forum like this one. i know some folks whom practice lau and hung in the north-central and north east of london but know of nothing elsewhere besides these guys. i had heard of a shaolin-do opening up in or near (glastonbury-?-) or some other major northern port city on the west side of the big island.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Thanks for that, theres about 4 Lau Gar Schools up the road from me, so i might check them out, i might learn it until i'm 18, but i'm desperate to learn Shaolin Kung-Fu and Wushu.

The hop gar in bedford looks good, is it really the only place out of China that teaches the full discipline, also what style did Jackie Chan actually learn?

generally, hop gar is pretty rare stuff. you've probably got the only source in england. it is in germany in decent concentrations. and is scattered up the appalachian mountains on the east coast of the US. there are two masters through there that i am aware of.

jackie chan's major style is slapstick. he has studied hung gar, buk sing, hung sing, chuai jiao/chin na. all of these mostly in tidbits for the stage. his dad is hung gar 5 brothers.

[SPJ]

Here is an Italian link to forms or Tao Lu Wushu/styles.

forms and styles (http://digilander.libero.it/laoxu/Eng5.htm)

:)

[SimonM]

Wu Shu just means "martial art" that means that technically BJJ is Wu Shu - if practiced by a Chinese Speaking person. Seriously though just go around to whatever schools there are in your area, Gong Fu or otherwise, and ask the following questions:

1) Does the teacher use the words deadly or secret?
2) Does there appear to be a cult of personality surrounding the head instructor?

At a good school the answer will be no to these questions.

3) Does the school do partner-drills?
4) Does the school do sparring?
5) Does the school use stress/resistance-testing when training techniques?

At a good school the answer will be yes to these questions.

This is an incomplete list, it's just what I thought of off the top of my head.

Remember style is nothing, the martial artist doing the style is the one who should be under scrutiny. :)

[Vasquez]

Simon M, It shows your lack of understanding about so and so. Different styles have different trwining methods some do only forms for many years before touching hands. If they are traditional they are still good schools.

[Martial Joel]

generally, hop gar is pretty rare stuff. you've probably got the only source in england

I think hes the only non-chinese to have learnt he full discipline, but don't take my word for it

... http://www.wahnam.com

[SPJ]

styles (http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/index.html)

Another link;

[Liokault]

Simon M, It shows your lack of understanding about so and so. Different styles have different trwining methods some do only forms for many years before touching hands. If they are traditional they are still good schools.


Yes, clearly you should train, with out touching another human bean for years if you want good kung fu.

Hey, you can just buy vidoes and never leave your room to. As long as there traditional videos (not that sucky DVD crap) they must be good!!).

[SimonM]

Thanks for reminding me! I was going to do a review of a VCD today!

Read my blog (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38364)

[SPJ]

The Buddha palm, any taker? Ru Lai Shen Zhang

Om (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/764ffbbc.jpg)

:D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I think hes the only non-chinese to have learnt he full discipline, but don't take my word for it

... http://www.wahnam.com

from that lineage i think you may be correct. Wong has been notoriously reticent towards teaching gui lo his hop gar. oddly enough he has little to no trouble teaching them excellent qi gong. other lineages are more accepting. or, rather, forced to accept more caucasians as orientals are a rare commodity in the appalachians. one of the masters and several of the sifu are caucasian.

if you're willing to travel even once a month to Wong's student I'd do that over anything else available to you. hop gar is hard-soft crane orientated fut gar with both buk sing and hung sing elements. even that doesn't do it justice. it has a little bit of everything and lends itself well to tiger, dragon and crane hand applications. it may be the historical antecedant to a style known as li ling pi which translates as either 'Southern Magic Dragon' or 'Tiger Dragon Supremecy'.

[Chief Fox]

Don't get me wrong, wushu takes a lot of training, focus, strength, flexibility and determination and I have total respect for any wushu practitioner. But in my opinion there is nothing "martial" about it.

It is a performance based art like gymnastics or figure skating in the olympics.

I'm sure there are schools that blend defense training with wushu and that is fine, but if you are looking for defense (like the original poster said in his first post) then wushu training is not the place to start.

Not trying to bash wushu here or any wushu practitioners. Just trying to be honest in saying that wushu is mostly gymnastics and dance.

[SimonM]

Right on Cheif Fox. I 100% agree. :D

[PangQuan]

i would only change the term dance to acrobatics and then i would agree completely

[SimonM]

Cheif Fox said a blend of gymnastics and danse. I'd say heavier on the gymnastics but since the only place you see Wushu on the flying trapeeze is Cirque De Soleil I'd say not acrobatics. :)

[Ben Gash]

Lau Gar in Midd*****rough (http://www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk/welcome.htm)
Other than that you may need to travel. Edmund Ng teaches Choy Li Fut In Newcastle, and a little further afield Ma Yue teaches Tong Bei and sport Wushu in Peterborough.

[Ben Gash]

Ok, now they're just having a laugh! You can't write the name of an English town because it has L E S B O in it?

[SimonM]

Well since you have to write f a r t h e r as "F@rther" why not "Midd1esborough"? ;)

[Vasquez]

Lionkault,

Yes they must be right - they are all good. traditional must be good.

[PangQuan]

I may have a different idea of what gymnastics and dance is than most...

I know in a form we categorize as wushu, we also learn and teach application to movements. The "wushu" elements are found through the leaps and such. I feel if you cannot find application to movements found in a "wushu" format then you are not looking hard enough.

then again the term "wushu" may be percieved differently to most.

if your a strict "wushu" only player, then I would agree with you. But i can bet you many of the pasts "traditionalists" could perform many a wushu techniques.

In such a case Japanese Ninja's would be considered partial "wushu" practitioners.

Fact is most people cannot perform much of the acrobatics involved. such as running wall flips, butterfly twists, arial cartwheels, handsprings, and so on...

I have found many people that begin their martial arts training at a later age, will never persue this type of activity, because frankly it hurts like h3ll reshaping your body.

[SimonM]

Fact is most people cannot perform much of the acrobatics involved. such as running wall flips, butterfly twists, arial cartwheels, handsprings, and so on...

I have found many people that begin their martial arts training at a later age, will never persue this type of activity, because frankly it hurts like h3ll reshaping your body.

PangQuan I think that we are disagreeing over a semantic point.

Please keep in mind that these are personal definitions, not dictionary ones.

I classify Gymnastics as leaping and tumbling without the aid of a prop.

I classify Acrobatics as acts of agility performed with the aid of a prop (trapeise, tight rope, etc).

As such I would classify every single "acrobatic" action you described with the possible exception of running wall flips as "gymnastic" - they are leaping and tumbling without the aid of a prop.

Now in my case I am not yet capable of many of those feats of tumbling, I'll be honest. It comes from the simple fact that I am... well... not skinny. I'm quite flexible and quite strong but you won't catch me doing aerial cartwheels any time soon. Perhaps when I have lost the weight I will work on such flashy actions but these things (if applicable at all) have only a peripheral applicability; a leaping cartwheel will not help you directly in a fight though it may aid you in escaping afterwards. As I am interested in fighting than in free-running or other such endeavours anyway (girth aside) these will remain an entertaining secondary activity when I am capable of performing them.

And I do try; I am most definately not afraid of pain. I have literally trained until I puked before and have lost over 100 lbs through trying hard every day! :)

Peace.

[PangQuan]

I think you are correct in this point of disagreement.

I think that gymnastics are a required element of acrobatics. Though many a time have i seen gymnists struggle with many "wuhshu" techniques, and dancers... well lets just say they think kung fu will be less rigerous than the way we practice at our school.

quick simple female self defence it is not...

I get what your saying with the whole prop thing though.

I have danced before, and i have practiced wushu before. very very different.

You all are right that you dont need, the gymnastic element of "modern wushu" to fight, I kind of just see it as a whole meal deal kind of thing, the complete chinese kung fu package.

many of the "modern wushu" elements have been around for thousands of years. Only up until more recent times have people began to disect it from the entirety of chinese martial arts.

As far as a martial form being strictly flamboyant and not posessing any martial application, I dont agree with this, its stupid. But the basic gymnastic/acrobatic aspect of "modern wushu" is another story...

peace out...

[Chief Fox]

The only reason I said "dance" is because it is a coreographed set of movements. I think any kung fu form, if you don't focus on the martial aspect of the movements, can be interpreted as a dance.

[PangQuan]

ah ha.

understood.

I guess the thing for me is this:

I dont see how any martial artist, regardless of the activities they participate in, could ignore martial application, or fighting aspects...

its just kind of funny to even call them martial artists, they would just be interprative dance artists...

so now i totally get what your saying...sorry for the barb i got in me arse there for a moment... :D

[Chief Fox]

ah ha.

understood.

I guess the thing for me is this:

I dont see how any martial artist, regardless of the activities they participate in, could ignore martial application, or fighting aspects...

its just kind of funny to even call them martial artists, they would just be interprative dance artists...

so now i totally get what your saying...sorry for the barb i got in me arse there for a moment... :D

Sorry for the confusion.

I feel the same way about the XMA guys. Very impressive stuff. They're in great shape and it takes a lot of work to be really good, but I think the martial application is lost.

Looks good on TV though.

[mantis108]

Modern Wushu is a sport. It was conceived as such and has been developed as such under the Communist party's watchful eyes. It is no more or less than figure skating. You will soon see this in the Olympics. Judges bookering deals for their athlets.

The forms of Modern Wushu were taken out of the traditional context and therefore devoid of the real lessons behind the real training methodology. Even if you look very hard for the martial applications and found them, it won't do you any good. BTW, if you open a MA magazine, you will find the same numbers of applications (ie standing arm bar, takedown, etc) in practically every known systems and styles. What the hell is the difference? Why do you think they brought in Sanshou to "compliment" the form training of Modern Wushu in an attempt to "complete" the sport? Modern Wushu has nothing practical to offer in the fighting department. You don't see boxers, Judokas, wrestlers, BJJers, etc... doing all those fancy pancing around but I'd put my money or even my house everytime on them mopping the floor with any Modern Wushu athlet. Unfortunately, traditional Wushu and Kung Fu has to suffer from the bad image of Modern Wushu. It was mistake to create it. To err is human but to not see the mistake is rather spaced out IMHO.

Modern Wushu people today want to present a craft as an art. They bank on (pun intended) you to believe that the urgly duckling is in fact a beatiful swan.

Mantis108

[PangQuan]

I agree.

The only amount of "modern wushu" I like in my personal repertor is enought to be able to physically do certain things.


I wonder if Wong Fei Hung could do a back flip or a butterfly kick?? Im betting he could. Thats the amount I like.

I always wanted to be a ninja growing up. Then I saw that chinese martial arts provided the same kind of acrobatic stuff.

Out if a 5 hour day of practice I focus maybe 15 to 20 minutes on this type of thing.

I dont fight for a living. I dont plan to. I practice martial application alot, more than many I would say. A little acrobatics thrown in for some salt and pepper on my squid is fine by me.

[Martial Joel]

I thought i wanted to learn Ninjitsu, but i think i would rather a full on chinese martial art and after i'm a little more experienced maybe learn a little Ninja or Wushu, just so i could backflip off a wall and do butterfly cartwheels. are there many forms of Kung-fu that teach this style of acrobatics/flexibility?

[PangQuan]

You could find a straight wushu teacher later in life, or if you find a school of kung fu that has a small wushu integration.

this is how my school is. a light integration of wushu, however if you cant do it, you cant do it. So there is no manditory requirement for the acrobatics of wushu.

[PangQuan]

There was a point where I actually wanted to drop the wushu aspects from my training.

But then one day I had a physicall revelation and started to excell more in areas that I had been having problems with. At which point I decided I like it. Its hard work, its painful, can be full of injuries for some, but dang its fun.

I will never be the best martial artist on the planet, I will never be the best fighter on the planet. But I for sure am going to have a lot of fun doing what I do.

I have noticed that much of the wushu I have learned has given me the strength, flexability, and coordination to more easily learn monkey...monkey staff is soooo cool.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

There was a point where I actually wanted to drop the wushu aspects from my training.

But then one day I had a physicall revelation and started to excell more in areas that I had been having problems with. At which point I decided I like it. Its hard work, its painful, can be full of injuries for some, but dang its fun.

I will never be the best martial artist on the planet, I will never be the best fighter on the planet. But I for sure am going to have a lot of fun doing what I do.

I have noticed that much of the wushu I have learned has given me the strength, flexability, and coordination to more easily learn monkey...monkey staff is soooo cool.

one of my younger brothers had 12 years of 'classical performance wushu'. another had 6 years in Meihua tang lang. as i am beginning to see certain traits in very long term (lifer type) martial artists i would be inclined to add two or three wushu routines to my practice for beginners. skills i am particularly interested in developing are hip flexion and pelvic girdle muscle/tendon flexibility and strength. some of the gymnastic techniques similar to a walk-over tilted to the side for a variety of kicks in rapid succession. but i guess that all starts with basic gymnastics? seems odd to require your prospective students to take three years of after school sport gymnastics before doing thier first form...-?-. but conceptually i think i like what i'm daydreaming :cool: .

[PangQuan]

i can also spring up from the ground in several fassion pretty darn quick. this i attribute to the small amount of wushu. just in case i fall...

im developing that springy, bouncy lightness. like a monkey.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i can also spring up from the ground in several fassion pretty darn quick. this i attribute to the small amount of wushu. just in case i fall...

im developing that springy, bouncy lightness. like a monkey.

okay, you got me you ol' troll. tell me some wushu forms so i won't be walking around this week making an a55 of myself trying to find acrobatic/gymnastic wushu players or video or them playing. maybe three years of taichichuan, bagua and gymnastics then a year of wushu, then the a55kikr forms....

[PangQuan]

i dont get it :confused: :confused:

We dont really do a strict modern wushu form at our school. we have a few forms that have modern wushu influence for specific sections.

the modern wushu we do practice are solo techniqe drills. That when learned can be added into any form you like....

but i dont really understand your last post sorry... :o

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

it's okay. you answered it. thanks. :)

[PangQuan]

sweet deal :D

[Invisible-fist]

Its silly to say that there is nothing "martial" about a sport that uses swords and spears. Wushu IS kung fu, there is no difference in the techniques, the only difference is on the training emphaisis. Wushu athletes are specifically focussed on forms competition, as such they spend more time on developing jump height, low stances, and acrobatics. The basics are the same. Wushu will improve your kung fu and visa versa.

[Invisible-fist]

Simon M, It shows your lack of understanding about so and so. Different styles have different trwining methods some do only forms for many years before touching hands. If they are traditional they are still good schools.


I can't beleive it, but I'm actually agreeing with Vasquez. Its true. A lot of traditional schools teach forms for years. My old school was that way. And lest you accuse it of being a dance school, we produced some bad a55 kick boxers.

[SPJ]

sort of agreed with I-F.

Kung Fu is the colloquial name.

Wushu is the proper name.

Within the context, there are training methods and manuals.

There are also Wushu forms performance and competitions to promote the arts.

There are Wushu teams from high schools, colleges, and cities etc.

The Wushu forms and competitions are still evolving and evolving.

They do stress "performance" part with sets of criteria to judge.

Including flashy and aerial moves is to inclease the "looks" and difficulties and may not relate to fighting aspects.

I guess the truth is in the middle.

[SPJ]

And both Wushu forms performers and Wushu fighting training;

have to go thru the basic training of stances and moves or Ji Ben Gong.

The tough part of Wushu forms performing is the spirits or Shen.

You have to have the Shen in the styles of forms you are performing.

:)

[SPJ]

Reply to the first post:

Whatever works for you is good for you.

:D

[Martial Joel]

I don't really know which would be better Lau Gar or Wing Chun, cos after seeing something on the top 10 best weapons, Wing Chun came first, well the human mind. But you don't learn any rolls or anything, what about Lau Gar, for self defence, plus that extra level of flexibility for rolls, backflips and probs even learning butterfly cartwheels

Any one got any suggestions, i've looked but i'm a novice to Kung-Fu or even Martial Arts really. On flexibility and fighting e.g. Backflips, Rolls etc.

[Invisible-fist]

If its flashy stuff you're after, Wing Chun will likely bore you to tears. (It did me!)

I don't know Lau Gar at all.

Wushu or Northern Shaolin is definitely flashy.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

try both. it'll never hurt you to know more.

also, lau gar is kind of rare outside of england. after five or seven years you might make sifu and have a small business in another country. wing chun is everywhere.

[Chief Fox]

Its silly to say that there is nothing "martial" about a sport that uses swords and spears. Wushu IS kung fu, there is no difference in the techniques, the only difference is on the training emphaisis. Wushu athletes are specifically focussed on forms competition, as such they spend more time on developing jump height, low stances, and acrobatics. The basics are the same. Wushu will improve your kung fu and visa versa.
I'll admit that when I said there is nothing "martial" about wushu that it was a little over the top. Of course all of wushu is based on martial application. But it has deffinately evolved into a performance art. As far as the weapons go, I wouldn't exactly call them weapons. More like props. Extremely light and flimsy. A classmate of mine used to study wushu. He brought in his wushu Kwon Dao. Basically, the blade is about 2 steps away from aluminum foil. I picked it up and I laughed.

PangQuan "I will never be the best martial artist on the planet, I will never be the best fighter on the planet. But I for sure am going to have a lot of fun doing what I do."

Great quote PQ. I feel the exact same way. :)

[PangQuan]

:D

I will have to laugh at "wushu" weapons as well. Personally I have not performed in a weapon competition, were I to do so though, I dont think I would feel right using a spring steel light weight prop. I would have to use a live blade or not compete at all. If i were not ready to use a live blade, then I would not be ready for competition.

I practice japanese fencing by myself. I own a katana and have for years, if I am not using a wooden sword then I use my steel. One day someone said their new wushu dao was too heavy :confused:

I just had to laugh....

[Vasquez]

It's best to keep the sword light. Otherwise you'll be just focusing on brute strength. millions of ppl doing wushu can't be wrong. plus the swords are spring steel ones that sell at shaolin

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

got three sheets of aluminum paper? then you've got a wushu weapon!

IMO, wushu skill forms are great for developing the kind of formative muscle memory and precision needed for a foundation in weapon arts. but by not ever using a weapon thick enough or tempered to be battlefield real just looses ambiance. just imagine all the problems that would occur if sharp metal was being toted around town. it just makes sense from a lowest common denominator sense of governance.

[PangQuan]

lol. you always say the funniest little silly things vasquez.

i think we should start feeding you more and get you house trained, you can be the forum troll. kinda like a mascot you dont show anybody, and doesnt really represent you. okay, more like a lame dog with one eye and 3 legs, but its kinda the same thing right?


"Food" for thought:

stick with your light "shaolin" spring steel swords, then we can duel and ill use a combat steel live blade. Then you can watch my blade break yours as you block, and lodge itself into your shoulder.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

"Food" for thought:

stick with your light "shaolin" spring steel swords, then we can duel and ill use a combat steel live blade. Then you can watch my blade break yours as you block, and lodge itself into your shoulder.

i used tothink that way. until sifu bought a wushu broadsword for giggles just to try one out. he and my hsi-hsing played the broadsword v. broadsword routine. the wushu weapon actually cut the combat steel weapon about an inch into the blade from the spine. the wushu paper tore and left a sharp edge. when the cmbat steel hit the wushu steel the wushu steel gave under the weight of the combat steel like a blade of grass in a strong wind. so they both have their points.

however if your opponent is wearing any kind of thick or multi layered cloth the wushu weapon has had it. the perfect thickness for a broadsword is about .185" of 1085carbon no longer than 38". the 1050 carbon metal is better for axe-like tools and da mo canes/ lucerne hammers. 1095 is good for short slicers: longer blades of this material break easily.

[PangQuan]

ummmm

the wushu steel weapon cut the combat steel weapons blade????


not sure if thats even scientifically possible. the density of actual combat steel...ummmmmmmm


not saying it didnt happen but i just happen to have my doubts....really really bad combat steel perhaps...

When I say combat steel I am refering to steel used in live blades that would be used in war.

not combat steel such as combat wushu steel.

take a han wei wushu dao, and a han wei dynasty dao. smash those blades together and see what happens.

[Vasquez]

Flexible blade is better - just like a fencing sword, the movements are less predictable.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

the wushu steel weapon cut the combat steel weapons blade????
not sure if thats even scientifically possible. the density of actual combat steel...ummmmmmmm
.

take a physics class. force being equal, the surface area of the wushu blade being smaller than the combat steel, the wushu weapon will have a greater capability to shear the combat steel than the combat steel to shear the wushu weapon.

the wushu and combat steel weapons are actually cut from the same metallurgical type of metal. the thickness is the only real difference. they have the same density. just different thicknesses. but that is enough to produce significant physical differences in terms of capability and capacity.

if you're thinking "European Combat", well, then you may be correct. the weapons are totally different, but look similar. in europe the intent of a weapon was to kill the guy hiding behind a screen of steel. so they had to be different than the weapons of china and india.

[PangQuan]

interesting, ive never really looked into this before, I will do so now.

I do know some wushu performance weapons are not solid steel though. take some sand paper to a tiger claw wushu dao and watch the color change :p

thanks for the info though.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

interesting, ive never really looked into this before, I will do so now.

I do know some wushu performance weapons are not solid steel though. take some sand paper to a tiger claw wushu dao and watch the color change :p

thanks for the info though.

this was back in the ninties. so production methods may have changed. i knw of one company that makes cutting tools out of mylar aluminum. other composite items are on the market , too. such as the plastic used in mylar as a cake sandwiched between two sheets of aluminum thinner than foil. did the one you scraped have a white undersurface? if so i't probably a high density high flexion plastic under aluminum or stainless laminate. sometimes they're just brush-chromed or electroplated. this has been a common method from asia/phillipines for about three years and was started maybe 8 years ago in korea in production. ceramic engineers were working on this in the mid ninties for Krupps Industries, Germany and an Arizona university ceramics department. not sure if it was ASU or Flagg.

[PangQuan]

k ive decided im just going to trust you on this one :p

[SimonM]

A lot of traditional schools teach forms for years. My old school was that way. And lest you accuse it of being a dance school, we produced some bad a55 kick boxers.

If the school produces good kick boxers then they must spar. I say this because otherwise you would not know that they are good kickboxers. Kickboxing IS sparing. If they spar than they use training methodology other than performance wushu forms. Because sparring is a training methodology in and of its self. I am not against forms per-say; I simply don't believe that forms alone make a good fighter and so if your school uses other methodologies than forms, in addition to forms, it could very well produce good fighters without making anything Vasquez said valid in the slightest.

[SimonM]

Pang Quan: Between the Hanwei Dynasty Dao and the Hanwei Wushu Dao the dyansty Dao will brobably break the wushu Dao but I believe that they use different steel and different forging techniques for the expensive Dynasty blades than they do for the Wushu Dao. All else is not equal. So this neither confirms nor disputes YZDZ's point.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Pang Quan: Between the Hanwei Dynasty Dao and the Hanwei Wushu Dao the dyansty Dao will brobably break the wushu Dao but I believe that they use different steel and different forging techniques for the expensive Dynasty blades than they do for the Wushu Dao. All else is not equal. So this neither confirms nor disputes YZDZ's point.

i can find out. when were they made? most of the forged hanwei steel is common knife steel not spring steel. they also use modern processes for making the steel and not more traditional methods. so for modern type hanwei steel you are probably correct. especially if you are comparing thier japanese types which have a diffferent base metallurical breakdown than what has been sold as "chinese" in the past. some hanwei weapons are noted as being made of the same steel as the japanese style weapons. so that would make them significantly different.

i was looking at my broadsword last night. it's just under .080" thick and is 32" long with a cheap looking chromed blade. the metal is untempered and will not take a slicing edge. i put it to my four by four post test and it pennetrated 5/8ths of an inch on a corner. the hanwei wakizashi i had pennetrated around 7/16ths of the same post in a similar test.

the wushu broadsword has scratches on it from where a hanwei wakizashi slid off the belly durring a block manuever. i suppose you could create the right conditions for both results to occur to prove either of our points. it's just a matter of how many dollars do you want to waste in the process?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

do you know anything about the costs associated with doing business in china, exporting from china , importing to the US and trying to make a living? a basic wooden toy is around $15usd; wushu toys start around $37usd and can end up near $70usd plus shipping to your business or residence.

we're not all in asia. :)

[Invisible-fist]

If the school produces good kick boxers then they must spar. I say this because otherwise you would not know that they are good kickboxers. Kickboxing IS sparing. If they spar than they use training methodology other than performance wushu forms. Because sparring is a training methodology in and of its self. I am not against forms per-say; I simply don't believe that forms alone make a good fighter and so if your school uses other methodologies than forms, in addition to forms, it could very well produce good fighters without making anything Vasquez said valid in the slightest.


We sparred, but only the advanced students. There was about two years of forms first. (Just like vasquez said) The kick boxers were close door students. I know they were good because they entered muay thai competions, and mopped up the floor. Sifu says that the traditional body-hardening techniques work very well in the ring.

Note that this was not "performance wushu" it was traditional hung-gar...and it was mostly forms.

[SimonM]

We sparred, but only the advanced students. There was about two years of forms first. (Just like vasquez said) The kick boxers were close door students. I know they were good because they entered muay thai competions, and mopped up the floor. Sifu says that the traditional body-hardening techniques work very well in the ring.

Note that this was not "performance wushu" it was traditional hung-gar...and it was mostly forms.


Traditional hung gar contains more than just forms. However Hung Gar can also produce good fighters when trained correctly. I'd disagree with your sifu's methodology of not letting folks put gloves on and try out their techniques for two years but I imagine you were probably doing at least some fishbowl drills, mabey some ring drills, partner drills, etc. Forms alone are only a small part of the total training regimen.

That is my point; that has ALWAYS been my point. Sadly some deluded fools believe that forms ARE the WHOLE of training in martial arts. They are just plain wrong.

And YZDZ: Sorry that was a cross-post from a different thread... I bet 20 RMB on the weight of a dog in a video with GDA. Sorry for the mistake.

[SimonM]

i can find out. when were they made? most of the forged hanwei steel is common knife steel not spring steel. they also use modern processes for making the steel and not more traditional methods. so for modern type hanwei steel you are probably correct. especially if you are comparing thier japanese types which have a diffferent base metallurical breakdown than what has been sold as "chinese" in the past. some hanwei weapons are noted as being made of the same steel as the japanese style weapons. so that would make them significantly different.

i was looking at my broadsword last night. it's just under .080" thick and is 32" long with a cheap looking chromed blade. the metal is untempered and will not take a slicing edge. i put it to my four by four post test and it pennetrated 5/8ths of an inch on a corner. the hanwei wakizashi i had pennetrated around 7/16ths of the same post in a similar test.

the wushu broadsword has scratches on it from where a hanwei wakizashi slid off the belly durring a block manuever. i suppose you could create the right conditions for both results to occur to prove either of our points. it's just a matter of how many dollars do you want to waste in the process?

If the dynasty products are what I am thinking of they are a new line that tried to replicate the structure of historical weapons. The CAS-Iberia website focussed on the fact that they used different steels (including Damascus steel on some products) and the price-tag was much higher.

My Hanwei Dao is not a dynasty blade. It is the one with the black sheath and blackened steel on the guard and pommel nut. The blade is not particularly beautiful but it is quite capable of holding a cutting edge. Otherwise it is essentially the same as the description of your Dao. Does your dao have the red lacing on the hilt or the black?

That was what I intended to post; not my little 20 RMB = $3 post. Sorry for the confusion. :p

[Invisible-fist]

Traditional hung gar contains more than just forms. However Hung Gar can also produce good fighters when trained correctly. I'd disagree with your sifu's methodology of not letting folks put gloves on and try out their techniques for two years but I imagine you were probably doing at least some fishbowl drills, mabey some ring drills, partner drills, etc. Forms alone are only a small part of the total training regimen.

That is my point; that has ALWAYS been my point. Sadly some deluded fools believe that forms ARE the WHOLE of training in martial arts. They are just plain wrong.

.

Simon, you are training in China, right? Are doing exclusively Sanshou? Many traditional schools are basically forms schools...fighting doesn't come until the principles of the style are fully assimilated.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

If the dynasty products are what I am thinking of they are a new line that tried to replicate the structure of historical weapons. The CAS-Iberia website focussed on the fact that they used different steels (including Damascus steel on some products) and the price-tag was much higher.

My Hanwei Dao is not a dynasty blade. It is the one with the black sheath and blackened steel on the guard and pommel nut. The blade is not particularly beautiful but it is quite capable of holding a cutting edge. Otherwise it is essentially the same as the description of your Dao. Does your dao have the red lacing on the hilt or the black?

That was what I intended to post; not my little 20 RMB = $3 post. Sorry for the confusion. :p

my broadsword is a stamped spring steel blade with chrome electroplate. it's fittings are brass. the handle is black with a gold and white wrapping. there is a red kerchief on a loop on the pommel. it all comes apart with the loosening of a nut on the pommel. i don't know who made it. my sifu gave it to me kind of as an after thought for my birthday. five times i've caught him looking for his favourite toy. i gave it back to him once. but i found it in my stuff when i was packing to leave. :D

cas iberia hired a historical researcher who is quite talented. i asked him some questions a couple years ago and got answers within a week. he's good. elsewhere i saw a question about various styles of oriental weapons: the surviving historical pieces were all of muslim origin (determined by composition and technique). there was a distinct difference between muslim weapons of the indo-pak orogeny and the metals in the pacific island strings, where the damascus kris daggers and kris-like swords were family heirlooms. of note was that there were no original chnese weapons from the same eras of the muslim weapons. speculation concluded that it was both metallurgical and style of weapon, especially thickness. i wish i could refer you to the article. it might have been in an engineering periodical or a history thesis periodical. also it would've been published between 82-95. i think he said it was in the early eighties, but i'm not positive.

[SimonM]

Simon, you are training in China, right? Are doing exclusively Sanshou? Many traditional schools are basically forms schools...fighting doesn't come until the principles of the style are fully assimilated.

At the moment I am not doing Sanshou exclusively; in fact some of what I am doing is {gasp} performance Wushu. But when I get in the ring you can bet I will be switching back to what I learned first; a combination of Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Hei Long Wu Shu and a dash of western boxing along with any new sanshou tricks I pick up in the sanshou component of my training.

At my Canadian school my Sifu was of the opinion that without testing techniques in the ring and without drilling individual techniques you could not fully assimilate a style. I'm sorry that your sifu still adheres to the idea of the closed door student. Mine did not. The forms alone will give you a mnemonic to remember components of the style but there is much more to a style than just forms.