Southern Appalachian Chinese Martial Arts Tournament

[Oso]

ok, like I don't have enough to do.

Last May I got approached to co-host a tournament here in Asheville, NC.

The Carolinas Association of Chinese Martial Arts has a tournament in Charlotte every year and I've taken my students to it twice. Those of you in the US Kuoshou family may know some of the member sifu's and schools as they go up to Maryland most years, I think.

Anyways, me, the other sifu here in Asheville and the rep from CACMA met for the first time this weekend to plan and organize.

The title of "Southern Appalachian Chinese Martial Arts Tournament" is basically a working title at this point but I think it might stick. We are going to be trying to reach over to east TN (including you JP and Master Mullins as well as the Wah Lum guy in Knoxville [if you happen to see this]) and down into GA and SC and up through VA.

We are not going to have any full contact this year but if this year works out then we will add Lei Tai later. So, basically it will be your basic forms and continuous sparring tournament. There will be Tai Chi divisions as well.

The basic mission of CACMA is a good one...no politics, just kung fu.

http://www.mhkungfu.com/CACMA/cacma.html

I will continue to update to this thread as we progress. A website will be up within a week or two.

[Oso]

This thing is a go.

There is a placeholder page up at

www.ashevillemartialarts.com/SACMAT.htm

you can link to my school, the other teachers school and CACMA's website.

a much, much hotter website built by Ming Yue will be up by the end of the week at the same page.

One note is that we will have a division for other internal forms besides tai chi. At this point we're not going to break it down into Xingyi or Bagua or anything else but want to provide a place for other internal styles to compete. The other teacher involved teaches ba gua and he have another ba gua teacher in town as well as a teacher or two in SC.

We're making it a benefit for the Red Cross.

we're on the calendar here

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=02&year=2006

[Judge Pen]

I'll make every effort to attend. I'll discuss it with my teachers as well to see if anyone else would like to go from our schools (Scott there in Asheville sees Master G. Mullins more often than I do). Have you thought about Sifu Myers in Atlanta as well? Sean Stonehart is here often so they may (or may not) be interested as well.

[Judge Pen]

There's also another internal guy, Russel Sauls I think, here in Knoxville. There's a CMA/IMA guy in Maryville, Richard Clear I think, that trained with some of MS2's teachers.

[Oso]

Thanks, bro. I've talked to Bob Cummings about it already and told him to please pass the word to Master Mullins.

If you would, forward me any contact info you have. We're getting our mass email list together this week as well as a snail mailing.

anyone else, you can request the info packet by emailing

sacmatinfo@ashevillemartialarts.com

[Judge Pen]

I talked it over with my teacher and, unless something drastic happens (injury, family or financial) I'll be there. I'm thinking about competiting is sparring and I might even do a form (even though I'm not the best forms person) What the hell. . . . Is there an over 30 division? I'm getting too stiff to deal with those gumby-type 20 year olds out there. :p My fiancée may also fight in the beginner division too.

I'll mention it to Master Mullins Sunday. Bob Cummings will probably be there as well so we might get a few SD people there.

[MasterKiller]

Is there an over 30 division? I'm getting too stiff to deal with those gumby-type 20 year olds out there..

The old man division is usually 35+.

I placed 5th out of 14 at Taiji Legacy when I was 30 in the Advanced Northern division, and I know I was the oldest one in that category by at least 4 or 5 years. I won a bronze that year in the Long Weapons division. I also won a bronze and a silver at AAU nationals in the weapons categories (traditional staff and open divisions) that same year.

You can do it. Suck it up.

[Judge Pen]

You can do it. Suck it up.

Yeah, I can do it, I just feel it the next day a lot more than I used to. :eek: :D

[Oso]

yep, our seniors division starts at 35.

I saw a karate tourney once, a pretty big one called Shogun Day, with probably a good 400 competitors or more that broke down seniors into 10 year gaps

35+
45+
55+

they had at least a half dozen folks in each. it was pretty cool and allowed for older folks to keep competing.

[Oso]

www.ashevillemartialarts.com/SACMAT

There are still a few edits to make for continuity of the website but the information is all there.

If anyone spots any glaring mistakes, please hit me with a PM. Thanks.

[yu shan]

Nice site Oso! How are you doing the lion dance? Is this going to be a group effort or individual schools? Any headsup on the Masters lineup?

[Oso]

Ming Yue as usual on the website and logo design.

The hung gar and wing chun schools involved with CACMA have lion dance teams and Mark Small does as well. So, at least 3 lions plus you and your group.

I don't know when I'll get around to learning it only so much time and honestly, it's not a high priority for me. To much other stuff to learn.

[yu shan]

Dont sweat it Oso, I know where your coming from. Just keeping up with our kf training is hard enough.

Have you seen any of these schools do lion?

[Judge Pen]

Have you seen any of these schools do lion?

Scouting the competition? ;)

[yu shan]

err, sort of..... busted! :D

Matt`s told me about these teams, no worries. Now if the CLF guys come up from the ATL, they have experience.

[hungsingclf]

thanks for the kind words yu shan. unfortunately, we will be in the middle of chinese new year performances and will not be able to attend. but hopefully we can come to the next one. it sounds like there are gonna be some quality people there. judge pens group are super people. i know yu shan will have a strong team as well. good luck oso and if i can ever help out, just let me know.if any of you guys are ever down my way, swing buy and will go get some dim sum in chinatown.

[Judge Pen]

Well, I was hoping that they could come. . . .

[Oso]

thanks for the kind words yu shan. unfortunately, we will be in the middle of chinese new year performances and will not be able to attend. but hopefully we can come to the next one. it sounds like there are gonna be some quality people there. judge pens group are super people. i know yu shan will have a strong team as well. good luck oso and if i can ever help out, just let me know.if any of you guys are ever down my way, swing buy and will go get some dim sum in chinatown.

Thanks.

We thought about the fact that lot's of schools will be in the middle of their own CNY activities but as Sifu Small's New Year's event is the basis of this tournament...

Our goal is to make this an annual event. So, maybe next year.

[SaekSan]

RHD just informed me that this tournament will be in Feb. for some reason I thought it was in May. Anyway, I'll be looking into the tournament it will depend on how things are at that time over here but I might show up with some students.

Best of luck on the prep!

:)

[yu shan]

hungsingclf

You guys are the real deal down there in ATL. Most definitely will take you up on dim sum, there is a china-town in the ATL?

FWIW, I tell my group, if i were not doing mantis it would be CLF. Got introduced to CLF thru Chan Pui. Cherished moments with the late Master Lee Koon Hung.

[hungsingclf]

thanks yu shan. we try, have alot of work ahead of us. you know i respect you pong lai guys as well, good solid training with quality instruction. after all we are kinda family from 2 or 3 different angles. with sifu steve robinson and shr fu john being connected, plus the wl element;) you are always welcome here my friend.

[hungsingclf]

oh yeah, we do have a chinatown, kinda small and sporadic tho. yep, gm lee koon hung was a true kung fu master in every sense. he was a wonderful man, and the world a lesser place without him. clfnole and sow choy are a testimony to what kind of teacher lkh was.

[Oso]

Saeksan, just so you are aware, we won't be doing Lei Tai this year.

We want to but decided we would get the bugs worked out of the general process before we added the full contact. We are definitely planning it for 2007.

Also, in NC we can't do a full contact tourney due to restrictions imposed by the NC Boxing Commission. No fighter can have more than one match a day. My thought now is if there is enough interest we can run Lei Tai on both saturday and sunday to get everyone at least two fights. The restriction is solely got to do with the gloves. If we went to 14/16 oz gloves then we could do a tourney format.

Thanks for your interest.

[SaekSan]

Thanks for the heads up, my forms team needs a bit of practice too in a tournament setting too, so maybe we'll be there for that.

Can you send me printed info? Is there a mailing list?

Thanks!

[Oso]

Great!

sacmatinfo@ashevillemartialarts.com

send an email there and I'll get the packet to you when i get home this evening.

[SaekSan]

Check your e-mail...

:)

[Sifu Darkfist]

if you would like to send us more info i would consider it as an option for my students. I would love to network with other areas we havent traditionally attended.
James

[yu shan]

Sorry Oso, dont mean to hijack your thread.

hungsingclf, thank you sir for the open invite. Yep, I know about our family relationship. Sorry I have not gotten with you sooner. We can share war stories ehh!;) I will call you soon.

Do you get alot of local chinese eateries calling you for the new years? Just curious. They are stubborn here... us being white boys and all.

[hungsingclf]

i worked for years making contacts, doing charity work, eating some crap from people time to time, and in general just being nice even when i wasn't getting the same kinda attitude. went in did a good job and everything else just kinda fell in place. also pricing is important as well as having the best possible equipment you can afford. being able to understand the culture and ettiqute of the lion is monumentaly important, as well as knowing how to solve puzzles set forth by your employer. when all these things are in order word of mouth takes over. we play the old style fut san lion with 7*'s beat. i'm forever indebted to my si hing, sifu bryan jang and si goo adeline louie (combined 75 yrs of lion experience) for training me and my guys. in short, it depends on location, whether the business owner really understand what lion is. hope this helps some.

[Oso]

yu shan, no worries.

Saeksan - my return email to you bounced 'full mailbox'

[SaekSan]

Sorry man,

Someone sent me a huge file with pics, just cleared it, can you please re-send the info?

Thank you,

Nelson

[Oso]

Nelson, still bounced. The file i'm sending you is about 2.5 meg...that might be the problem. I can send you two files...one about 1.5 the other about 700kb. maybe it's your server regecting my email due to file size.

[SaekSan]

I got the 1M one. Nice flyer! I'll print it and post it at our guan.

Once again thank you!

:)

[SanHeChuan]

Could you send that info to me so that I have something to present to my sifu.

He teaches Choy li fut and Yang Tai Chi in Havelock, NC

[Oso]

SanHeChuan, please send an email to

sacmatinfo@ashevillemartialarts.com

and I'll send the info back to you.

thanks,

Matt

[Ou Ji]

Oso
Just post it to the website for download. Saves you work as long as your account has enough bandwidth.

[Oso]

It doesn't have enough bandwidth.

Registration form, maps and the rules are on the website though the rules aren't in a downloadable format they could be copy and pasted to Notebook or Word.

don't mind the work, have plenty of helpers.

[Ou Ji]

Ok, but here's a tip if you get tired of emailing.

Set up an account on a free site and drop the files there, then link to them from your site. When downloaded they will use the bandwidth allowance for the free website and not your main website.

[Ming Yue]

Oso,
I did make a PDF version of the rules downloadable on the Rules page of the site.
left click to open in browser, right click and 'save as', to save.

[Oso]

Meant to bump this last week.

Pre-Registration ends Jan 13th.

This event is shaping up to be pretty well attended as we've gotten a lot of feedback from schools close to us in SC, GA and TN.

I hope to see some of you guys from a bit further afield.

Again, full details are available at

www.ashevillemartialarts.com/SACMAT

[Sifu Darkfist]

we are planning on attending, i am working on getting the guys/ girls to finish their registration forms so i can send them in. However the packet did not make the cost per event clear, is it 40 per event or is their a differential? just checking before we start to send it in.
James

[Oso]

The $40 dollar entry fee covers as many divisions as they wish to enter.

Thanks for pre-registering. It really helps things flow better the day of.

[Sifu Darkfist]

The $40 dollar entry fee covers as many divisions as they wish to enter.

Thanks for pre-registering. It really helps things flow better the day of.

WOW this has to be the best deal in the U.S. for competition thanks for the information.

[Oso]

All tournaments under the CACMA banner are one price tournaments.

This event is an expansion for CACMA who already hosts two other events. One in May and the other in November.

BTW, I sent you an email.

[SaekSan]

We're looking at our calendar and it's going to depend on if we have any Lion Dances for that weekend. We're booking right now so I'll let you know ASAP.

Thanks!

:)

[Oso]

Yea, we've already looked at the fact that a lot of folks are going to be doing their own New Year's stuff and have already decide to do it a week later next year.

Thanks for considering it!

[Oso]

10 Days left to preregister....

[Judge Pen]

The check and registration is going in the mail tomorrow.

[Oso]

Thanks, bro. I just dropped of info at Bob's Tuesday.





So, I'm curious...somebody tell me what a good turnout for a first tournament is?

[Oso]

Thanks, bro. I just dropped of info at Bob's Tuesday.





So, I'm curious...somebody tell me what a good turnout for a first tournament is?

[Golden Tiger]

.
So, I'm curious...somebody tell me what a good turnout for a first tournament is?

I would imagine that if you looked at the number of schools in your area (say 50-100 miles) and the number of students, then count on about 25%, you could call the tourney a success.


Then again, with JP making a rare public appearance...you might get 95 to 100% attendance :cool:

Best of luck to you.

[Judge Pen]

Then again, with JP making a rare public appearance...you might get 95 to 100% attendance :cool:

Best of luck to you.

Yeah right. To see me crash and burn. I'm not in the best of tournament shape right now, but I've got a few weeks left (If only that pesky work would leave me alone). I've signed up for 3 events (Southern Empty Hand, Long Weapons, and Continous Sparring) but I'll just be happy to be there and support Oso.

Seriously, I'd be a much better martial artist if I worked at McDonalds instead of trying to make partner. :p

[Oso]

Well, I know JP is mostly coming because of a long promised copy of the tape from the mantis seminar in Nashville. ;) Which will be dubbed tonight and ready for him.



thanks for the clue and the luck!

[Golden Tiger]

Seriously, I'd be a much better martial artist if I worked at McDonalds instead of trying to make partner. :p

Yeah, I imagine only the high level technique of butt kissing is being practiced now:p

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I imagine only the high level technique of butt kissing is being practiced now:p

It has been the last month. Things get hectic and I've been traveling so practice time has been sporadic. But I finally have a weekend where I can get a few hours in and another student just closed on a space 2 minutes from my house, so I will have indoor practice space avaialbe to me 24 hours a day soon.

I honestly don't know which will be harder, going to 4th or making partner.

Oso, the tape is a perk, and I plan to work up that form again (with maybe a little help from you and/or Jim), but I want local open tournaments to do well so even if my stuff stinks, I want to be there.

The way I see it, for most here I'm supposed to stink as I do SD so I shouldn't care. If I do, everyone will say its typical SD etc., but if I do well then they might say, well its not that bad. When the expectations of others are in the basement, you can only go up or stay where you are.

[Oso]

you'll have to get Jim to help...I've only maintained the first road of it...


if Bob follows through, you shouldn't be the only SD guy there.

[yu shan]

Dont sweat the small stuff Judge. My group is not firing on all cylinders either. It will not be our best effort. We are going to support Shifu Melton, have a good time, and hopefully make some friends.

[Judge Pen]

Dont sweat the small stuff Judge. My group is not firing on all cylinders either. It will not be our best effort. We are going to support Shifu Melton, have a good time, and hopefully make some friends.

Good stuff. I almost chickend out on any forms to just do sparring, but decided to su ck it up and do all three. I'm really looking forward to hanging out with you guys again and seeing some other styles at the same time.

[yu shan]

OK you want pressure! Oso hit me up to perform in the friggen Masters Show! I`m thinking about suicide! Naw, my teachers showing me this longfist form, "big continous kicks" or something like that. It is sort of reserved for the younger more in shape student. I have three roads done so far, out of 5 or 6, cant remember. It is an insane form. Is there going to be a heart defibrillator in the house? :eek:

[Oso]

JP, you'r 'advanced' division at 3+ years. There has been some goog competition in that division at other CACMA events. There's a couple of big dudes from Charlotte's Peaceful Dragon school that aren't too shabby at all.

[Judge Pen]

OK you want pressure! Oso hit me up to perform in the friggen Masters Show! I`m thinking about suicide! Naw, my teachers showing me this longfist form, "big continous kicks" or something like that. It is sort of reserved for the younger more in shape student. I have three roads done so far, out of 5 or 6, cant remember. It is an insane form. Is there going to be a heart defibrillator in the house? :eek:

I'll bring one with me. I'll need it after my forms. The empty hand set I'm doing I've only had since July so it's not my best, but it's my favorite in terms of technique and I think it is appropriate is terms of length.

[Golden Tiger]

What forms did you finally decide on JP?

[Judge Pen]

What forms did you finally decide on JP?

5 animal form and Kwan dao. I may switch 5 Animal Form to Tiger/Crane at the last minute though. It just depends on whose there and how I'm feeling about the balance portion of the form at the beginning. That's where I usually mess up nailing one-leg squat and all the kicks from the same leg. After that I usually go pretty good.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Our registration will be there on time, Money is tight so i have to wait on a certain check. I plan to next day mail it or 2 day whichever. So dont count us out. I hope to meet many of you at this tourney! it sounds like there are going to be some terrific people there. i know we cant wait (not to mention it is getting really cold up here).
James:)

[Oso]

Thanks. No worries.

I hear you on the money....been that way for over a year for me.

[Oso]

Shifu John Scolaro, head of Pong Lai USA, will giving a seminar on Sunday Feb 5th, the day after the tournament.

Content to be determined. More details later this week.

Location will be somewhere in Asheville, probably at the High School gym where I work during the day.

Morning Session
9am-12noon

Lunch

Afternoon Session
1pm-3pm

Cost: $60


PM or email me for details. Pre - Registration encouraged.

[yu shan]

Judge- look forward to seeing you again, your knee is probably bionic eh! I enjoy the kwan dao, takes some stones to do this at a tournament.

Darkfist- we are going to be late as well, money is a premium these days. We look forward to meeting to. How many folks are you bringing?

Oso- thanks for the headsup on the seminar, looks like we have to keep the drinking to a minimum Saturday night huh. ;)

[Oso]

whut??? can't you work out hung over?:p

I know I did Sunday in Cleveland. Maybe that's why Neil beat the crap out of me.

[Sifu Darkfist]

whut??? can't you work out hung over?:p

I know I did Sunday in Cleveland. Maybe that's why Neil beat the crap out of me.

Hmm i know you were not in cleveland without contacting me so i can place hospitality where it belongs, i think i should ignore this comment ehheemmm cough cough.

Yu Shan probably four students, my wife and myself. My Master would also attend however he Mans the New Year Parties at that time, he will be there in our hearts. I am going to attempt to contact another Master that is dear to me but no promises on success.

James

[Oso]

Hmm i know you were not in cleveland without contacting me so i can place hospitality where it belongs, i think i should ignore this comment ehheemmm cough cough.

Yu Shan probably four students, my wife and myself. My Master would also attend however he Mans the New Year Parties at that time, he will be there in our hearts. I am going to attempt to contact another Master that is dear to me but no promises on success.

James


we were at the Mantis Symposium held at Sifu Ervin's (actually, I think we were at Sifu Gino's school) in what seemed like north cleveland. last april.

Neil Armstrong, AKA "ninjaboy" wolloped me around sunday morning at the Hu Xi Lin seminar....I just couldn't get a handle on things that morn....

[yu shan]

I`m bringing video of you and Neil, it wasnt that bad! BTW, we are not required to wear the fancy kung fu uni`s at this tournament are we? I have been after my group to make this purchase for 2 months now, they seem to have no interest. We will be wearing the PL polo "with collar" shirt. The one we wore in Ohio, is this appropriate?

[Oso]

"Clothes Optional"

just kiddin.

wear watcha like.

[yu shan]

Seein` most of your students are wimens this could be interesting!:eek:

[Oso]

yep

been thinking about changing the name of my school to

LLAMA

Ladies Love Asheville Martial Arts

;)

[Judge Pen]

Judge- look forward to seeing you again, your knee is probably bionic eh! I enjoy the kwan dao, takes some stones to do this at a tournament.


My Kwan dao is light, but very sharp. It was the form that I hurt my knee on in the first place, so doing it in public is a way to "get back on the horse" so to speak.

LLMA! Nice. As for clothes, our uniforms are northern style sams, but I'm doing a southern form. Hmmm, I may just wear a T-shirt and my kung fu pants.

[Oso]

TTT

Last day for preregistration. Anything postmarked today or tomorrow will be counted as under the line.

IF there are any extenuating circumstances, please contact me. We're willing to work with everyone to get them involved.


You guys know I'm not an optimist but I think this event will be a very nice 'first annual' event.

I'm looking forward to meeting everyone in person.

[yu shan]

Heres a stupid question Oso, this pre-reg. is not mandatory stuff is it. I`m not going to make this and we are driving along ways dont want to get turned away.

[Oso]

Pre - Registration is an attempt to be as organized as possible the day of the tournament. The more we know about who's competing in which divisions the faster we can be up and running the day of.

The last event I went to was a full two hours late...and then there were big gaps of time between divisions becuase all the judges had been conscripted that morning and didn't want to be there judging...so they ducked out at every opportunity....some even just left the event before it was over and the director just decided to blow off the last division becuase of lack of judges.

That kinda crap is not going to be happening at my tournament. ;)

[Judge Pen]

How's the forecast on number of participants, styles represented, etc.?

[Oso]

pretty good...lots of mantis...some wing chun...some SD...some long fist...hard to say on number as I'm hearing lots of yes's but very few actual pre-reg...but, that's par for the course. the last CACMA event had maybe 20 pre-reg and over 100 competitors.

we're at about 20 pre-reg.

i'm probably breaking some rule of disclosure but wth...

[yu shan]

I will shoot you an official head count soon and will there be a chance to register that Friday night? Any lion dance teams?

[Judge Pen]

Looking at the sparring rules, it says in the advanced rounds:

" neck, groin, spine are not legal targets"

Is that common in CMA tournaments? I've fought in those rules in open-sytle tournaments before, but we usually allow pulled-thechniques to these areas to count.

I just hate not allowing the groin to be a target as you get people who hop in with one leg up, although you are allowed to kick the support leg (in a non-joint) area which is more than the other open-style tournaments that I've fought in.

[Oso]

I'm not looking at the rules at the moment but I'm pretty sure there is a bit about 'showing strikes to illegal areas'.

IF you can show it in a controlled manner that the ref doesn't think indangers the participants you can show it and judges will take it into consideration IF there was no defense offered.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not looking at the rules at the moment but I'm pretty sure there is a bit about 'showing strikes to illegal areas'.

IF you can show it in a controlled manner that the ref doesn't think indangers the participants you can show it and judges will take it into consideration IF there was no defense offered.

That's fair. I hate to see people not caring that there groin is open when they fight. Thanks for the clarification.

[Oso]

Friday and Saturday are looking to be mostly sunny and in the 50's.

[Oso]

Shifu Scolaro will either do a morning only seminar or split the topic between a morning and afternoon session.

Hopefully some of you coming from out of town will be able to stay for the morning session.

[yu shan]

Heading over to Asheville for the tournament this weekend. Look forward to seeing Oso, Judge Pen, Ming Yue and Dark Fist. Should be a good get-together. My Shifu will conduct an intense Mantis two man drills seminar Sunday morning. Yes we will all be hung-over, and yes bring your bruise medicine.

[Oso]

crunch time indeed...someone should have warned me...

see you in bit yu shan...i'm buying.

[Judge Pen]

I won't be able to attend the Sunday session. I have to get back to Knoxville and work a bit on a motion due Monday and clean house for the Superbowl. But I'm looking forward to seeing Oso, Ming Yue, Yu Shan again and meeting some more people from this board. Saturday will be a long, exhausting, and fun day.

[MasterKiller]

Props to all the competitors for keeping the CMA spirit alive. Good luck!

[SaekSan]

Best of luck to all competitors and a big up for Oso for getting this together!

Congratulations!

:)

[Oso]

Thanks MK and Seaksan. Wish you guys could be here...next years plans are already in the works and may be closer to both of you. ;)


SEMINAR UPDATE

Due to family and work obligatoins Shifu John Scolaro will not be able to make this weekend.

HOWEVER

I am very happy to announce the Shifu Kevin Brazier has agreed to take his place and will be giving the seminar on Sunday.

I think most of you who know Shifu Brazier as "Tainan Mantis" from the past several years of his posting and his new alias of "K.Brazier" will not want to miss this opportunity.

The seminar cost still stands at $60 but will be topically broken up into an 8am-12noon session and an after lunch session for those that can stay later.

I'm afraid that in the hustle of my day I did not clearly hear the topic on my cell phone as I was rushing between point A and point B.

IMO, it doesn't matter...whatever Shifu Brazier has decided to teach will be worth it's weight in gold...expecially for mantis peeps.

I know that those of us in Pong Lai have been waiting for this opportunity for a long time.

There will be a signup sheet at the registration desk and money will be accepted Saturday. We will be training in a high school gym so there is plenty of room for everyone.

[Ming Yue]

woohoo!!

$60 is great deal for a full day. I'm all fired up!
:)

[Judge Pen]

I love this provision of the rules:

Any coach or competitor disputing the results of a match and wishing to have arbitration of a match for any reason must notify the chief referee or tournament director within 15 minutes of the end of the match. They must provide a written request & $300.00 arbitration fee to the tournament director within 30 minutes of the end of the match. If the arbitration is settled in favor of the arbitrating team, a full refund of the arbitration fee will be given; otherwise no refund will be given.

Like this will ever happen. :D

[Oso]

JP, yea but I kinda like it.


Seminar Update

Just talked to yu shan and got some more info on the topic.

It will be on 4 methods of "leaking hands"

[Ou Ji]

I was thinking of making an impromptu appearance but once again the stars have aligned in such a way as to prohibit travel during the required time period.

Catch you guys next time maybe.

[Oso]

...it's over...


actually been over for about 4 hours but the 25 or so of us Pong Lai'ers as well as Sifu Darkfist's group met for dinner and...lubrication afterwards ;)

it was a good day.

Big Props to Judge Pen for fighting A LOT. I saw one of the best hand combinations I've ever seen in a sparring match...and it landed. Also, he landed a round house kick from a seemingly impossible position. But, beyond anything else he demonstrated a high level of endurance and a willingness to fight. A credit to Shoalin Do.

Also, his fiance' IS hot. ;) so, he's not BS'ing us there.

BTW, JP...the tape was in my car all day...give me your snail mail and I'll get it to you...sorry, bro.

JP took Third in the Men's Advanced sparring.

One of Yu Shan's students placed Second. (Yu Shan, I'll post his name if he's ok with it.

A gentleman from VA whom I won't name because I don't know if he want's his name spread around took First.

Men's Advanced was double elimination...fully, where the winner of the consolation bracket came back to fight the winner of the primary bracket...beat him and they fought again because they had both only lost once.

I don't know final tally on # of competitors...probably won't till later this week.
NOT large by any means...50'ish.

Pong Lai was in Full Effect. Shifu Kevin did a demo and Yu Shan's Lion Dance Team Did a great job w/ Opening and Closing Ceremonies.

My utmost thanks to the support from all my Pong Lai brothers and sisters...I'm very glad I landed where I did. There is no better group of martial artists around.

[BM2]

Yeah I see them.

[SaekSan]

Sounds like everyone had a good time, that's great to hear. Once again, we're sorry we couldn't attend but hopefully we will in the future.

Congratulations on this one and may many other sucessful events be in your future!

:)

[Oso]

ok...why in the world would a reboot of MY computer change the fact that I couldn't see my own posts???

Anyway...Saeksan, I think everyone did have a good time. With Shifu Kevin's seminar today I put all of the data collation on hold till this coming week...and most likely with my class schedule...this coming weekend. But, I'll kick numbers out at some point.

We had a decent turnout over all. The bleachers were full and we started only 30 minutes late. It seemed as if we had a bit of rotation in the crowd throughout the day...others coming while some left.

I ended up mostly MC'ing the entire day...didn't plan for that and didn't have my PA set up well for the space and I mumble quite a bit...so I understand that portion of the day was comical.

Sifu Darkfist brought down some very good teen fighters. His teen boy won his division of four and is going to be a monster of a fighter one day. So will his girls.

All of his group joined us for dinner Saturday so we had some good mantis discussions around a couple of pitchers of my favorite beer, Highland Brewing's Tasgall Ale. ;)

Between Yu Shan's group, my group and K. Brazier and 18elders from Tampa...we had nearly 30 Pong Lai peeps in the house.

Yu Shan's folks kicked major ass in forms,including their younger brothers and sisters from Asheville, and often took all three medals in whichever division they were competing in...which was all of them.

While he has many outstanding people in his group, everyone was particularly taken with one of his young ladies performance of Tong Long Chuei and a fan form.

Lu Bu, Metal Mantis and Big Red Mantis were in the house...sorry if I don't remember anyone else's alias here.

The only adult women's matchup of the day was between one of my women and one of Yu Shan's. A good fight and it made the local news at 6. I have a tape and will try to get the clip transfered and posted...though it's only maybe 6-8 seconds.

Several of Yu Shan's guys fought besides the one mentioned above. One of them won the single fight we had in that division and the other one fought very well against guys outweighing him by 30-50 pounds.



details are starting to run together...

[yu shan]

Special thanks to Shifu Matt Melton for making this tournament a major success. And kudos to Becky as well, this tourney was run very well, a lot of attention to detail. Shifu Melton MC`d the show like a pro, very much on top of things. If I ever get the stones to do one of these... your hired! And thank you sir for my first exposure to Tasgall Ale, absolute yummy brew with some b*lls, went well with the pizza.

Everyone in attendance seemed so appreciative of all the competitors. Good attitudes and full support. Just an overall positive environment.

Too late and too tired to go into tonight. I judged all day, what an inspiration to me, all true warriors. There is something to be said about martial artists... true quality.

I`ll come back to this in the morning, just wanted to quickly thank Oso for a job well done. And thank Oso`s support staff, a real team effort.

[Judge Pen]

Big Props to Judge Pen for fighting A LOT. I saw one of the best hand combinations I've ever seen in a sparring match...and it landed. Also, he landed a round house kick from a seemingly impossible position. But, beyond anything else he demonstrated a high level of endurance and a willingness to fight. A credit to Shoalin Do.

Also, his fiance' IS hot. ;) so, he's not BS'ing us there.

BTW, JP...the tape was in my car all day...give me your snail mail and I'll get it to you...sorry, bro.

JP took Third in the Men's Advanced sparring.

One of Yu Shan's students placed Second. (Yu Shan, I'll post his name if he's ok with it.

WHEW, what a day! 5 matches, 12 90-second rounds total. Everybody was thumping each other too. I'm exhausted, but I had a great time.

Thanks for the kind words, Oso. I appreciate the invite, and I was very happy with how the tournament was run and the level and class of the martial artists that were represented. Yu Shan, your student is a bear. I look forward to fighting him again! Its not everyday you get the opportunity to square off against such great people outside of your style.

Oso, I'm PMing you my snail mail address. I forgot all about the tape--we both had a lot going on that day.

Yu Shan, I can't say enough good things about your students, their fighting spirit, and the quality of their forms. They are a testament to their teacher.

Also, this weekend was the first time I had the opportunity to see Baji up close and personal (thanks to Sifu Darkfist). Good stuff--very impressive. I'm going to retire from fighting before Trey gets to the adult division. :D

[Oso]

I'm going to retire from fighting before Trey gets to the adult division. :D

No doubt...I'm glad I can technically qualify as 'senior' division even now.

I do wish I had bumped my intermediate teen male in to that bracket but I had one there already and had an intermediate match up for him so I kept my two guys out of the same division.

[Ming Yue]

I had friends and family at the event and from what they told me there was a lot of audience appreciation for JP's fighting skill and endurance. Really impressive!

Great thanks and kudos to everyone, and especially to my Pong Lai family, local and distant, for the amazing presence and performances.

Special thanks too to Shrbua (forgive the phoenetic spelling?) Kevin Brazier for his presence and a great seminar Sunday. I regret that I couldn't stay until the end, but I really enjoyed the lessons. :)

[Oso]

I also want to give a shout out to Sifu Paul Ziglar of Kung Fu USA NC.

He brought the 3rd largest group to this event and has a very strong group of junior fighters.

One of his teens took a hard fall and the RN we had on site that day recommended we call EMS just to make sure. The EMT's cleared him of any serious injury and he walked off the mat to a round of applause.

We all send our best wishes to this young man and hope to see him back for more fighting in the future.

[Golden Tiger]

From the general props everyone is giving you that was there JP, I would like to add mine.

Way to represent.

So, how were the forms received, if I may ask?

[Judge Pen]

From the general props everyone is giving you that was there JP, I would like to add mine.

Way to represent.

So, how were the forms received, if I may ask?

I also took third in advanced weapons with the Kwan Dao. The Pong Lai people had amazing forms and the PL guy who took first (one of yu shan's students) did one of the best spear forms I've ever seen. Really nice.

I could have done better on Five Animal form. I started strong but had a couple of bobbles in the middle and I started to wilt at the end. I've got a lot of work to do on that form, but I'll keep plugging away and maybe one day I'll make it look like it should. I have to say that even if I nailed the form it would have been a tough division. The PL people were well represented.

I was happy and I thought our forms were received well.

[Oso]

Congrats on the kwan dao...I'd forgotten about that...there's no telling what I've forgotten about the day :o

GT, I think JP will agree that there weren't any politics involved in the event.

I was glad to see that JP had a group of supporters in the crowd and I hope to be talking with Master Mullins about the inclusion of more SD folks in future events and will welcome them as judges as well to remove any possibility of doubt.

I don't give a real rats ass about how well someone performs a set. Sure, it can show a lot about someones speed, balance and agility but what matters to me is if they can fight. JP showed that he could and as a representative of SD, Master Mullins should be very proud of him.

Any future event I am a part of will have a definite focus on sparring/fighting so all will be welcome to prove their mettle.


btw, the spear form was done by Metal Mantis.

[Judge Pen]

GT, I think JP will agree that there weren't any politics involved in the event.

btw, the spear form was done by Metal Mantis.

Agrred. There was no doubt that the judges were impartial and fair.

Congrat Metal Mantis. I've got nothing but respect for your form! That goes for Lu Bu and Bung Bo who also placed in empty-hand.

[Metal Mantis]

I just wanted to thank Oso for his hard work and continuing support. This was a lot of fun for me, as I have never been in any sort of competition for MA. Thank you for the chance to show my Shifu Yu Shan's hard work and dedication.
On that note as well, I want to thank my Shifu, Yu Shan. Thank you for your continual support, no matter how I mess things up. :) You have done a lot for me in MA and in life, for all I am very greatful.
Also, thank you to Uncle Kevin for his attendance and seminar. It is always a pleasure to learn from you. I look forward to more.
Thank you JP for your kind words on my spear form. You fought some hella fights. A credit to you and your style.

thank you thank you thank you

~ Be well.....

[MasterKiller]

Now if we can just drag you guys to Taiji Legacy...;)

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I'd love to go. It seems like every year it interfers with my vacation plans. :cool:

[Oso]

MM: you looked good bro.

MK, isn't that in Texas or someplace like that?

I dunno...anything I can't reach in a single day's travel will have to wait till I sell out and start making big bucks off of teaching kids to scream and yell at the top of their lungs. ;)

I think we are going to do our level best to get to Wong's in DC this summer.

I want to go to Seaksan's event in May but already have one event slated for that month.

we'll see...we've been hitting the tourney's a lot the last 9 months and I don't like the time it takes away from regular training...maybe in the future when my school is older it won't take as much prep but since almost all my competitors but Ming Yue are between 9-18 months of total training I just don't have the depth to make a tournament happen w/o plenty of specific practice before hand.

[Ou Ji]

I think MK was looking for a SD presence at Taiji Legacy. He's brought that up before.

JP congrats. You're the SD hero now. No pressure there guy. :)

[Oso]

I want to take a moment to praise all of my students who have helped me keep my school and my sanity together these last 3 months.

Becky for her Type A++++ personality that organized the entire thing. I could not have done this w/o her. She kept me focused and always had the next thing I needed to do ready for me to do.

Michael, my oldest teen student and oldest student competing. He’s been with me almost four years, learned 2 of the forms from my old system and took the change to Pong Lai in stride at the age of 13 by saying “this mantis stuff is cool!.”

I will vent a bit to say that I feel he was robbed of a win because the judges ended up counting some weak ass back hand strikes that landed w/ out any power or focus. Kinda sad when judges (not you Sifu Darkfist) fall into a ‘shoulda, woulda, coulda’ mindset. This will be the last time I put anyone in light contact. Michael had complete ring control the entire match continuously pushing the other fighter out of the ring every attack run.

Ming Yue for competing with Beng Bu against her older brothers and sisters, some of which are half her age and more than twice her experience with the same form. And also for her usual excellence in making whatever I do look pro. She did the website, the final on the packet and the program for the day.

Fletcher, my youngest at 12, for fighting some good matches and showing improvement in the skills we’ve been working on. He had a tough January, as he was the lead male in his school’s play that took place the Friday evening before the tourney. He’s been doing class 3 times a week after play practice the entire month.

Lori for coming back after a two month break to tend to her husband and the leg he broke in 5 places, deciding to compete with staff 4 weeks before the tourney, training her butt off and then jumping in at the last minute as a substitute for the two person staff with Fletcher.

Adam, (Lori’s husband) for being an excellent score and timekeeper and hanging tough in Kevin’s seminar even though I know his leg was killing him.

Ricky: for some awesome fighting in the teen bracket. He got the throw that injured the fighter from Kung Fu USA and was very shaken up over the fact that he hurt somebody. I’m very proud of him for his sportsmanship when Ethan was able to get up and walk off the mat.

Becky and Sylvia for continuing to improve on their two person. They won with it last November but were outdone by their older brothers from Yu Shan’s school.

Sylvia: for her fighting spirit and willingness to step in the ring. The only other woman fighting was one of Yu Shan’s so we had some Pong Lai vs. Pong Lai action. They were showcased in the vid clip the news team
took.

Valerie. Valerie broke her hand on my arm last October while sparring. Ended up having to get it pinned and just came back the first of Jan. She picked up where she left off and polished off the form she had been working on for the Nov event we went to and went on to take 1st place in the beginner adult forms. She didn’t believe me when I told her she would definitely medal no matter who was out there. I hope the smile on Kevin’s face when she completed her set was an indication of how well she performed.

I had several students not competing that lent a hand in set up and general gophering for the event. I could not have done it with out them constantly in the background and being available to load/unload equipment and move tables and chairs.

[Judge Pen]

Texas is a bit for me to go, but there's schools all over Texas. I guess its up to the individuals there to throw their hat in the ring.

Ou Ji: No pressure now. I was happy in that I accomplished what I wanted to do. I represented myself and my teachers as well as I could, had some great fights and experience, and made some friends. Not a bad weekend.

And I'll tell you this: the mantis people know how to fight. I'm looking forward to crossing hands again because you know it will be fast and furious.

[18elders]

Great weekend up in Ashville. The tournament was nice, good competition and as everyone has mentioned some good fighting.
Some praise for all the Pong Lai students from Yu shan and Matt's school, great job in your forms and fights. Extra praise for Yu's student Frank for all his fights, he is an inspiration for us guys over 40:)

Some good fights from JP also.

Nice to see everyone from the Pong lai family, had a good time as usual with everyone, good pizza and beer and good conversation with everyone(sifu darkfist was with us also).

Thanks to Matt and his students for being great hosts, my only request is next time turn the heat up in ashville before i get there!!!!!

For those who missed the seminar, you missed some great training.
Thanks a million to Kevin for going on such a short notice and for all his knowledge he passed to us over the weekend.

[MasterKiller]

I think MK was looking for a SD presence at Taiji Legacy. He's brought that up before.

Sure, but Ming Yue can come, too. ;)

[Oso]

18elders, thanks for taking the time away from the wife and kid to visit with us.
I hope your arms are as sore as mine...

a warning to everyone who looks at a picture of Shifu Kevin and thinks he looks soft. I can guarantee you that he is anything but that when he hits.

[Sifu Darkfist]

You guys know how to organize a tourney.
i will say Smoothness is your best attribute.
Many of the people in Pong Lai are extremely talented, That fighter that you brought up i thought did very well, i would let him go full contact all the way he was very aggressive. Oso has a great program and a great lineage along with a great family of martial arts to augment the state of North Carolina. Yu Shan and Sifu Brazier were all wonderful people with incredible dedication to the love of my life (martial arts). My students expressed a deep commitment to return and help support all of CACMA as well as the individuals present.
The young Lady who did Bung Bu Opposite Brittany in Advanced has Incredible talent along with all the competitors i had the chance to watch (when not judging) you all train hard and obviously the right way.
Thanks for the Southern Hospitality
James

[yu shan]

Oso, you were a great host to Kevin, Steve, myself and all that made the trip, thank you sir. All of us love coming over to Asheville. Kevin told Steve that you are a really cool guy and down to earth. Your students are some of the nicest people, yet love to train hardcore. This was evident at the tournament, but really showed at Shi-bo`s seminar on Sunday. Your students hit me very hard, I had to stay especially focused during the sun and moon line. Crunching the numbers with so many punches being thrown at me, I got jacked pretty good a couple of times. Please thank Becky for this! ;) Matt you and your school put alot of energy into this event, it really showed. Your students are improving and doing well, you should be proud. So many of your people helped us out that weekend, please thank them all for us.

As usual it is always good to train with 18 Elders (Steve Ottaviano) dude is about as strong as they get. I pair off with him on purpose, good man to train with, he kind of makes you bring your A game. Thanks Steve for making the trip.

It was great to meet Shifu Darkfist, he is really a nice guy. He brought his family, they are very charming. It was nice to have him sit with us Saturday night and talk about Mantis Boxing. I missed his daughter perform her set, she brought home the gold, congrats to her. He also brought a male teenage fighter that did well, props.

I posted about Judge Pen on the "Shaolin Do thread", but will expand here. I knew JP would be at the tournament, and looked forward to seeing him again. JP is a focused practitioner. I officiated forms and fighting at this tourney. I had the pleasure to "judge" Judge Pen. His empty hand form was long and difficult, I thought he did well. His Kwando form was pretty darn nice, I scored him high. JP really impressed me with his fighting. This man is a stud in the ring, he has combat skills. My folks spoke of him over beers that night!

With the exception of Lubu (Charles Huffman) this was my groups first tournament. I`m very proud of them, I think they did good. I must not let anyone get a big head though, this was a small tournament. Let`s see how they do down in Wah Lum land at Nick Skrima`s tournament. If they can beat their flash, then I might let them get a little bit of a chip on their shoulder! ;) I`m not going to break things down here, but our Champion is Frank Gonzalez! He fought like a lion, I will never forget what I witnessed that day. He has won over my younger students and secured mucho respect. My students know how I feel about them.

We were all thrilled to have Shibo Kevin Brazier attend. Every moment with this man is cherished, always stories being told of Masters and their students or just moments in time spent with his Shifu, Shr Zhengzhong. I was excited for Matt and myself to have Kevin see our students. He took time to take these folks off to the side and correct and spice things up. He watched the tournament intently, never taking his eyes off the competition. I`m sorry for those that missed out on his seminar. We can talk about this on another thread. Very special thanks to my Shifu John Scolaro for arranging this trip for Kevin and Steve. It made for a great weekend of kung fu.

Maybe with Oso`s help (we) can post some pics. I`d really like to see Pong Lai host a tournament, I think you will see this in Tampa.

[Ou Ji]

I`d really like to see Pong Lai host a tournament, I think you will see this in Tampa.

That would be in July right? When Pong Lai isn't doing anything, like other tournaments. :p

[Trey]

Hey,

The tourney turned out great and it was a pleasure to meet everyone, I had an awesome time. Everyone that I talked with was very kind.

Oso thank you for the kind words, i appreciate that very much. I would have liked to fight your other fighter, he looked pretty good, actually I would have liked to fight either of your students, as I know you are a great sifu. And sorry i didnt stay long at the pizza place( which was, by the way an awesome place). I think the altitude and small amount of sleep I got had me feeling a little sick.

Judge, thank you also for the kind words. It was great watching you fight... and you know how I feel about how that went already ... lol.

Anyways I had more to say but I cant seem to remember now for some reason.

For anyone wondering I got first in beginner forms (yes im new to all martial arts), and I got first in advanced sparring.

Now Ill leave you to look at my vain pictures.
\/
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[Oso]

Thanks again everyone.

Ming Yue has already changed the page to reflect that the event is over.

Becky and I will be compiling the stats and I will ask Ming Yue to add a results page.

I also plan on adding a photo page exclusively for the event.

Anyone with stills can send me a copy and I'll be happy to add them to what we have and credit the source. Please send a caption as well so I don't get something wrong.

We officially had 52 competitors. There was a winter storm watch issued Friday for Saturday and Saturday night. By Saturday morning it had been removed but I think that may have been a factor in not hitting more than that. We had 37 pre registered and I was hoping for double that.

I'd say from the beginning that I'd be happy with 50 on a first time event and that no matter what, people would leave knowing that even if it was small, it would be well run. I feel that we accomplished that.

More later....

[Judge Pen]

I`m not going to break things down here, but our Champion is Frank Gonzalez! He fought like a lion, I will never forget what I witnessed that day. He has won over my younger students and secured mucho respect. My students know how I feel about them.


I want to expand on Yu Shan's student, Frank. The man is a warrior. I fought him twice. The first time I felt very fortunate to get out with a victory. I knew I had been in a scrape after squaring off with him. When I met him again . . . . well he owned me the second time. His endurance and conditioning is amazing and he was the most deceptively fast fighter I faced that night. He is a class act and I can't wait to cross hands with him again. He has my utmost respect.

I attribute several of my scrapes, bruises and all around soreness to my two matches with him. No disrepect to the guy that won, but if I were judging the matches, I would have had him winning 1st.

[Judge Pen]

I thought your first match with Frank was incredible to watch. Your fiancee was in the corner videotaping and she was cringing a little watching, and I told her "it's ok, he's winning!" :D

Frank is indeed a bulldog, and a testament to Yu Shan. I look forward to the seeing the video and hope you'll share it here.


-C

I'll send my tapes to Oso and you all can put whatever you want on your site. I thought you guys had a videographer taping the event.

[Ming Yue]

we did, but Oso probably wouldn't share it without your ok.

[Judge Pen]

If I do it in public, it can be put on the internet. No problems here.

[Oso]

The tai chi guy co-directing this with me had the pro videographer there as a favor to him.

I'm not sure what his intent is or if I will even see it. Those of you in the know can guess.

I am collecting info on who may have had individual cameras running and will be happy to do the work to collate onto a master tape for sharing.

[Judge Pen]

I'll send you what I have. My home computer is crashed, though, so I may have to send the original tapes instead of burning them on a DVD first. Oh, you may want to delete my fiancee's commentary.

[Oso]

LOL...yea, people forget they are right on top of the mic.

If you could dub to a VHS that would be easiest. My DV camera is toast. But I can run a VCR into my computer.

[Judge Pen]

It's one of those that burn straight to a mini dvd. I bought the thing Friday and I still need to read the manual. I don't know how to do anything but record stuff right now.

[Oso]

sounds sweet...I'll need to buy another one. I've got a 3 year old Panasonic DV-203 that I won't recommend to anyone. Piece o crap.

[Judge Pen]

Oso, check the "Is Shaolin Do for Real?" thread. Jim and I are discussing a place to meet in the middle occasionally.

[Oso]

Results are up on the website.

www.ashevillemartialarts.com/SACMAT

let me know if you see an error.

Also, we will be creating a page for pictures soon. If anyone wants to send me pics I will be happy to host them...we can even break it up so that each set of pics will be credited to whoever sends them in. Be sure to include whatever captions or names you want associated with them.

[Oso]

First is everyone's KFM sweetheart, Ming Yue towards the end of 3rd road Beng Bu.

Next, me talking with my 12 year old between matches.

Then, our favorite SD practitioner.

And, my 16 year old Ricky landing a good roundhouse.

[Oso]

Pong Lai representing in the two person division.

My folks are the two with the staves and the two w/ the tanks.

We got skunked. :D

Pong Lai Nashville took 1st and 2nd and the two in the red sashes from Charlotte's Hall of the Peaceful Dragon took 3rd w/ a nice set.


2nd Pic:

Photo Op w/ Shifu Kevin Brazier (K.Brazier formerly Tainan Mantis). 18elders, Yu Shan, Lu Bu, Metal Mantis, Bung Bo, Ming Yue and Big Red Mantis...among others

I was working :( and missed the op.

[Judge Pen]

Cool pics!

I'm working on burning my vids of the tourney to a DVD so I can send it to you. I'm not media savy so it may be a longer process, but they will get there eventually.

[Oso]

Here's on of Yu Shan's students doing a fan form. This girl rocked the house with her fan form and mantis form.

and, fellas, be polite, she is underage.

[Judge Pen]

Here's on of Yu Shan's students doing a fan form. This girl rocked the house with her fan form and mantis form.

and, fellas, be polite, she is underage.

I judged that round, and her fan form was awesome! Keep the pics coming!

[Oso]

I probably won't post too many more.

Want to save them for the full page on the website.

I've got around 150 pics total and even though my kung fu mom who has been taking our pics that last year or so is getting better there aren't many that are dead on. Plenty though.

I sent Sifu Darkfist a bunch of his folks and maybe he'll post some more. There is an adorable pic of his 7 year old geared up for sparring. Too cute.

[yu shan]

I have some good shots, but most of mine are eatin`and drinkin`at the waterhole. One good one of JP with a bloody towel around his neck.

[Judge Pen]

I remember. You really wanted a picture of me with that bloody towel. I must have really looked rough!

[Oso]

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/SACMAT/SACMATphotos.html

these are just the best shots from my school photographer.

I tried to pick some good shots representing everyone who was there. However, though we did have shots of almost everyone...not every shot was good.

So, again, if you have some pics you wish to share, email me and I'll put them on my site. Include whatever caption or title you wish to use identifying person, school or whatever.