Pay to test for the next level??

[Mel]

Hi all. I've been out of martial arts for so long (20 years) and am only just coming back to kung fu now at age 41. Everything I am trying to practice is what I remember from 20 years ago. There are no kung fu masters in my area that I know of (I live in Maine--the end of the Earth :rolleyes: ). That being said, my 7-year-old daughter started taking Tae Kwon Do (sp?) a couple of months ago. I would much rather have put her in a kung fu class if I could have, but there are none available. So, she studies Tae Kwon Do.

Well, yesterday I got a letter from her Sensei inviting her to test for her first (white) belt. I'm supposed to send a letter back saying that she has upheld the dojo (or dojang?) principles, such as honesty, integrity, etc., at home and at school. I thought that was a good idea. Something to make the kids be extra good. ;) But then I read at the bottom of the page that it costs $25.00 to test!! Is that normal? Twenty years ago when I was studying from an old Kung Fu master straight from China, we never had to "pay" to test. In fact, he didn't really believe in belts/sashes at all but did have them for competition purposes. No one had to pay extra to show their skill and advance, if appropriate. So, my question, am I just old-fashioned/totally out of it by thinking paying is weird? Is this a normal thing that people do now? Or was my old shufu the only one who didn't do it, while everyone else did? I'm confused. And before I start yammering about it, I'd like to know if it's just par for the course and something I should accept and get used to. Any helpful comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Mel

[PangQuan]

its pretty common, at least here in america it is.

[Fitdoc]

Yes, i have to pay $15 dollars for my testing fee. As i ascend the ranks, the fee increases at my school.

[Vash]

We pay about $5 to cover the belts.

Testing is in-house, regular class times.

When we belonged to an association, black belt testing was $50, covered belt, certicate printing, and helped get close to covering rent cost of whichever school's gym we took over.

[Samurai Jack]

$20.00 at my dojo. I don't mind paying that once a year.

[rfbrown3]

Back in the early 1990s when I was in ITF Taekwon-Do, we payed at least that much for test fees at the lower levels and it just went up from there. If I remember right, a Black Belt test fee was a couple of hundred dollars. I know of Korean (WTF style Taekwondo) who charges a $500 fee for 1st. Dan test in order to get a Kukkiwon certificate.

So yeah, I would say that it is normal, but still IMHO just another way these dojangs find ways of getting your money. Some TKD organizations (The ATA comes to mind) has all sorts of activities that they want students to sign up for that of course cost extra money other than what you are paying for the classes.

RFB

[SimonM]

It's pretty common to pay for tests but one thing...

Testing for white belt? I thought white belt basically just meant "something to hold the newbie's gi closed". :confused:

[Ben Gash]

Traditionally in TKD you should start at white. However, in various other styles, it can be quite common to start off as "ungraded" and have white as the first promotion.

[SimonM]

I see.


I've never been a proponent of belts. As far as I am concerned every martial artist is simultaneously a student and a teacher for their entire martial career. At some point they switch the focus from learning to teaching and are called Sifu but they don't cease to be a student nor should a martial artist who is not ready for that shift be afraid to help, to give guidance to their peers when they can do so and to lead by example for the newbies.

Unnecessary extra belts with fees just seem to me like a way to milk folks for the $$$ and testing for white feels like it should be in the category of "unnecessary".

[Mel]

Thanks for those responses. I'm glad I asked here first before I started dropping little "comments" at the dojo.

I guess paying to test is fairly common. Still, testing for a WHITE belt who is seven years old. :rolleyes: All the more reason to miss my old shufu..........

[count]

Thanks for those responses. I'm glad I asked here first before I started dropping little "comments" at the dojo.

I guess paying to test is fairly common. Still, testing for a WHITE belt who is seven years old. :rolleyes: All the more reason to miss my old shufu..........
Wait until she is 8 and your up to $500 for the black belt test. You'll wish for those $20 a test days. Such is the way of TKD (Take My Doe) in America. But over all it is a benefit to children as a first taste of martial arts. Just make sure the instructors at the dojang (not dojo) don't tell her or you she's learning something other than it is and what it's for. If it's sport, don't make it out to be for self protection or martial art.

Anyway, If they get out of line, it shouldn't be a problem if you already had some kung fu training, to call the "master" out to the mat, and kick his ass just for good measure. :p

[Judge Pen]

If the teacher rents space or if the teacher depends, in part or in full, for proceeds of the school to provide him living income, then I don't see a problem with it. Peopel gotta eat. If you find a teacher that teaches good stuff for ree just to have a worthy student, then you're very lucky.

[SimonM]

Wait until she is 8 and your up to $500 for the black belt test. You'll wish for those $20 a test days. Such is the way of TKD (Take My Doe) in America. But over all it is a benefit to children as a first taste of martial arts. Just make sure the instructors at the dojang (not dojo) don't tell her or you she's learning something other than it is and what it's for. If it's sport, don't make it out to be for self protection or martial art.

Anyway, If they get out of line, it shouldn't be a problem if you already had some kung fu training, to call the "master" out to the mat, and kick his ass just for good measure. :p

And when she gets to the point (in age) where she starts sparring remind her to keep her hands up; the #1 mistake I've seen in TKD sparring is a tendency to drop the hands below the waist whenever they were not punching.

[count]

And when she gets to the point (in age) where she starts sparring remind her to keep her hands up; the #1 mistake I've seen in TKD sparring is a tendency to drop the hands below the waist whenever they were not punching.
Personally, I think the number one mistake taught in TKD is step back. You don't need your hands if your opponent isn't allowed to punch you in the face. But it's a good point and let's not forget to remind Mel about the cost of the sparring gear. Than the master will require she compete in TKD tournaments too. Costs really add up in that sport. :p

[SimonM]

Oh yeah I forgot they didn't allow punches to the head in TKD sparring... :o

[Oso]

It's pretty common to pay for tests but one thing...

Testing for white belt? I thought white belt basically just meant "something to hold the newbie's gi closed". :confused:

i have a test for white sash for my adults...it covers the basic stances, punches, kicks, falling, basic dissolving chin na defense and the first tan tui routine we do.

I do go ahead and give kids a white sash when they walk in the door though.

at the moment I don't charge for testing, only money to cover the sash. but, honestly, as I move to make this my fulltime income I will probably do so but mostly to cover my time for the test which is always outside of regular class time.

a nominal fee of 10-20 + sash fee is fine. it takes a teachers time to test you and you should pay him/her for that. slightly higher fees through color sash ranking doesn't make much sense to me but a higher fee for 1st black and subsequent black sash levels isn't unreasonable either considering that they could probably begin teaching on their own as well.

but, hundreds of dollars is too much.

[Mel]

Oh yeah, the sparring gear, we already had to buck up for that last week. Ever try to fit a mouth piece to a seven year old???? What a ****ing NIGHTMARE.

HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO TEST FOR BLACKBELT??????????????? That's ridiculous! Yes, it does make sense to me now to pay something for the teacher's time (IF the test is done outside of regular class, which this is). And the longer the test (black belt vs. white belt), the more I suppose it would cost. But HUNDREDS of dollars?????? And, of course, by then she'll be totally into it and would be devastated if I said it was too much to pay.... I can see those big blue eyes now.....oh please! oh please!........ :rolleyes:

Why is there no kung fu in Maine? Does anyone out there know of anyone who'll teach kung fu in Maine? Would any of you shufus out there reading this like to move to Maine? You know, "vacationland"? It's a beautiful place. Think it over..... :D

[Oso]

fwiw, my old teacher had this sliding scale for his testing. sash fee was extra. all testing was done outside of the regular class.

Yellow - 25
Green - 35
Blue - 45
Brown - 75
Black - 100
2nd Black - 200
3rd Black - 300

Third black was 'sifu' level with him and I really didn't think it was too much to pay for about 17 hours of his time.

[count]

Oh yeah, the sparring gear, we already had to buck up for that last week. Ever try to fit a mouth piece to a seven year old???? What a ****ing NIGHTMARE.

HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO TEST FOR BLACKBELT??????????????? That's ridiculous! Yes, it does make sense to me now to pay something for the teacher's time (IF the test is done outside of regular class, which this is). And the longer the test (black belt vs. white belt), the more I suppose it would cost. But HUNDREDS of dollars?????? And, of course, by then she'll be totally into it and would be devastated if I said it was too much to pay.... I can see those big blue eyes now.....oh please! oh please!........ :rolleyes:

Why is there no kung fu in Maine? Does anyone out there know of anyone who'll teach kung fu in Maine? Would any of you shufus out there reading this like to move to Maine? You know, "vacationland"? It's a beautiful place. Think it over..... :D

Try fitting a mouthpies to an 8 year old with $3000 worth of dental hardware installed. :eek:

Black belt test usually involves official registration at the kukkiwon in Korea. But they only charge around $150. You should know these things before you sign the contract. I assume there is a contract involved. The Korean systems are pretty uniform and well systemized. Besides, your daughter would hate stance training for and hour and no ranking system you should find in CMA.

[Mel]

You got the palate expander, huh Count? They tried to do that on mine and I said NO WAY. We'll wait for the braces. :D

Contract? WHAT CONTRACT??????? Oh man..................this isn't getting better, it's getting worse..............

[EarthDragon]

Welcome to the cash cow, corporate money maker called Tae Kwon Do.
We have a TKD school in our city called world TKD
they just built a 1.2 million dollar building............are you kidding me?????

whats the difference between us and them?

US
I teach tradtionally for quality,
I have to one under 18 that is a black sash
It takes 5-7 years to get to this level
I have no students under age 5
I charge month to month 65.00 bucks
tests and sashes are free!
My students can actully fight
I have a bathroom/changing room and water fountain

THEM
they teach for quanity
they have 100 teenage Black belts and even more JR BB ugggggggg
it takes 18 months to get a Black belt
they have the little tigers program that uses stuffed animals to teach them to punch
they charge 3,500.00 a year
tests and belts yes white which comes with the uniform are 50.00 bucks
their students can only kick from far away
they have steam room, showers, sauna and snack bar with video games

[Invisible-fist]

Steam room?? Wow. That sounds pretty good actually!

[Anthony]

Mel, what do you think of your daughter's school? Do you think that overall it's a quality school (instruction, profesionalism, etc.). If so, a seven year old might be better off in that type of Karate school than studying Kung-fu. I say this a an ex-kung-fu instructor and karate black belt.

The reason I say this (think back to your experience) is that most KF schools aren't well geared toward teaching children. The complicated moves and forms would actually confuse a seven year old if not taught right. In the end, she would quit and get nothing out of it. Too many Kung-fu schools gloss over the basics too quickly in favor of the fancy stuff that most people want to do right away.

With Karate, she'll spend more (needed) time working on basic kicks and punches which even most kung-fu instructors, guite frankly, suck at. I mean, better to spend more time learning how to chamber your leg and arch your foot for a sidekick properly than to try to learn difficult chin-na at her age. Or trapping techniques.

She's only SEVEN dude. Ease up on the "I wish there was a kung-fu school here" stuff. She's got all her life to pursue MA.

A good foundation is invaluable and will stay with her no matter what she studies later on. The important thing NOW is a good school in any style that caters well to her age group.

[Oso]

word.

the teacher is much more important than the style.

[Mel]

Oso, thanks for the information. I guess $300 for 17 hours of time is really not so bad.

Earthdragon, your school sounds like the "old schools" used to be. I sent you a private message because I noticed you're from Buffalo, NY. That's where I grew up and learned kung fu. I'm looking for info on old kung fu teachers from there.

Anthony, I guess the school's OK. The sensei is only 31 years old. He says he has been doing TKD since he was 14. He seems to work the kids pretty hard, and the classes are run very professionally. When I told him I used to study kung fu he got this "glint" in his eye. I don't know if it's my imagination, but he seems to be working the kids harder since I told him. The thing that worries me the most is I see YOUNG kids walking around with black belts. How can this be?

You're probably right about kung fu being a little too much for her right now. Of course, I was thinking of me too. :D If there were a kung fu school in my area, I'd be able to go too! I've been trying to "remember" as much as I can. I've remembered more than I thought I would, but my memories are limited. It's discouraging to not have a teacher.

Maybe this TKD thing will be OK for a good foundation. Then, when we're able, she can move on from there. She does seem to like it. Guess I'll have to deal with the expense, for now. :rolleyes:

[Oso]

The 300 was also the entire fee for the document and title of 'sifu'.


i think people forget about the concept of hung bo(sp?)

maybe checks weren't being written but there has always been an exchange of money.

there are certainly some bad examples of paying a lot of money for nothing but only you can decide, as you have, that it's a good thing overall and worth the expense.

[Slade]

We used to have pay as you grade but they realised people just stopped grading as much or even bother at trying. So we changed to a monthly training fee $120 AU a month for 6 days a week training and we have a grading every month which is part of that, you can attend as many classes as you want as well as San Shou classes and cardio. But if you want to do a grading not at the normal once a month times (only if you and the teacher thinks you are ready to try for it) you can pay for a private grading which will cost you money which is normal private lesson prices (50 bucks an hour if I remember correctly) of course a black grading might take 2 hours compared to a level 2 grading which would only take 50 mins.

[count]

Mel,

Your daughter will be fine in a TKD program. If she wants to continue for a while, she needs a place she can get to by herself with friends from the neighborhood.

You on the other hand, need a place of your own. A "temple" so to speak. A place where you can get away from the day to day, family matters and focus on training yourself. If you and she share a common interest, that's great, but there is nothing in the TKD school for you unless you just need some extra sparring training close to home. As soon as your daughter is old enough, let the school be hers and you go find a kung fu teacher.

How far are you willing to travel and how often are questions you should be asking yourself. Do you require a particular style or teacher? Are you the kind of person who can train yourself no matter what situation your in?

On a quick search I found a number of schools in Maine. Some Wing Chun school, a couple of tai chi schools and a place with a number of different styles such as tai chi, bagua and one person even boasted a bit of Silat at the school. I didn't see anything that impressed me that much, but it is out there. Usually the best stuff isn't readily available anyway. You have to talk to people and find ones who's experience has been with Chinese martial arts. Often they won't be teaching or have a school, but are willing to show you what they know. Sometimes you have to travel far to find what you're looking for.

Or you could join her school and put on a white belt and learn a little TKD. If you can get the forms, there are a few people out there who can fix you later and show you how to really use the stuff. But be careful of the kind of training they do in those places. It takes it's toll on your body and at your age, you know you can't recover as quickly anymore. :D :D ;)

[EarthDragon]

Mel
my firsrt experience with martial arts was hun gar from ting fong wong, from canton. the golden dragon society on great arrow in 1981. I stirve to be as old school as he was, big shoes to fill........... but same hard knocks style and training regieme. and same school atmosphere.

[Mel]

Count, definitely food for thought. I guess I do have to decide how far I want to take this, i.e., travel, commitment, etc. If you want something badly enough, there are ways to get it. I'm pretty disciplined about self-training, which is a good thing as it seems I may need that strength.

I also saw the Maine "kung fu" schools and, like you, was not overly impressed. Maybe I just got spoiled with my old Shufu?? I'm hoping (beyond hope) that if I continue to put the word out there, I just might find someone here who doesn't have a school but IS willing to teach. Anything could happen.

Earthdragon, please check your private messages. I think we might know each other!! Man, it's a small world.

Oh, and by the way Count, look who's talking about old! You got me by five years bud. :D

[PangQuan]

$500 for our black sash test.

Of course once you actually recieve your black sash, you train at the school for the rest of your life for free.

500 bucks for the rest of my life is not much at all.

[Anthony]

Mel:

What are your goals in MA? To put it more directly "Why Kung-fu?" Since there are apparently no good KF schools in your area do you think that another school/style might satisfy those goals?

Schools (even within a particular style) can be very different from each other but all martial arts have certain common characteristics and benefits.

You may have to simply join the best school in your area. Any training is better than none.

[Mel]

Anthony, at this point, my goal is simply to get back IN to MA. Why kung fu? Because that's that I learned (hung gar) 20 years ago, that's what I'm comfortable with, that's really all I'm familiar with. And I'm biased toward it.

But, I see your point. There's no hung gar in my area (that I know of). I will mostly likely have to compromise. I guess I don't know enough about other styles to decide what I'd like to try--not that there's such a selection around here. And, of course, everyone is biased toward their own style (as expected), so it's difficult to get an unbiased, well-rounded synopsis of all the many styles out there.

I will keep practicing. I probably need to at least find some good hung gar videos.... And I'll keep my eyes peeled in the hopes that I can find something worthwhile in my area. (I am so not into TKD.) I'm not sure about the whole travel afar thing. I have a family and a home and a ton of responsibilities. I can't just pick up and go anywhere at the drop of a hat like I used to when I was younger.

Appreciate your response.

[SimonM]

Oso, thanks for the information. I guess $300 for 17 hours of time is really not so bad.


Different discipline but I am payed 5000 RMB per month for 20 hours per week. That is 5000 RMB for 80 hours of work per month...

Now that is 62.5 RMB per hour or 1062.5 RMB for 17 hours. There are 6.8 RMB for a Canadian dollar. So that is $156.25 for 17 hours of work. However the cost of living in China is much lower. Depending on what you buy 1-2 RMB has the same spending power as 1 dollar. Averaging to a spending power of 1.5 RMB to 1 dollar, as long as I don't need to convert funds, I am making the spending equivalent of $708.33 in a 17 hour period to teach English.

So in the end when you consider a top equivalent figure of just over $700 and a bottom equivalent figure of just under $160 for my work (plus perks such as a free appartment, free internet, free electricity, free TV, free Gong Fu lessons, etc.) I'd probably be hypocritical to disagree with this statement. However before I spent that much money on something I'd want to make sure it was worth it Mel so unless you know the school charging this amount to be good proceed with caution. :)

[Oso]

LOL, couldn't find something to else to do besides all that math?

fwiw, i'd been there 11 years and in that time he only went up in his monthly dues $10. From 40 to 50 to be exact. He also only went up $5 a test on his colored sash tests in that time as well. He didn't go up on his black sash testing fees at all. So, i knew what the cost was waaaay in advance.

[SimonM]

I had a few hours to kill before my 2 hour long practice session and wanted to get some rest. Forum posts allow me to do that and it realy wasn't that much math.