Entry Techniques

[Yamesk]

Again I am seeking information about a particular subject. Personal opinions and philosophies of your own welcome. People of Kung Fu Magazine forums, what are the best way to start off a fight, should you be in a real life fighting situation, assuming you had the oppurtunity to strike? Both fighters are unarmed and ready.

[bodhitree]

I'd flick out a quick jab of some kind, even backfist and feel out whats available after that. Definately not too much committment in the very first tecnique but it can set up something committed, a flurry, a throw/takedown, a kick, whatever. actually not just one jab but follow ups and any opprotunity to place a stike in a good target take and be ready to avoid, counter, block. If they throw the first punch, go into a takedown or stophit.

[bodhitree]

kicks to and around the legs to distract. punch than back up so they charge at you, use there force against them.


Really every situation is different.

[Liokault]

what are the best way to start off a fight, should you be in a real life fighting situation, assuming you had the oppurtunity to strike? Both fighters are unarmed and ready.


If you can throw the first punch, make it a fight ender.....I suggest a big hook to the jaw. If people are watching and your worried about the police, make it a big open hand slap to the jaw (basicaly a open handed hook).

[bo_hou_chuan]

I would recommend that your first move be diplomacy.

[Liokault]

I would recommend that your first move be diplomacy.


No no, thats what they want. What you do is make like your going to say somthing, then sock'em. This works on school teachers, police, nuns anyone.

[bo_hou_chuan]

I suppose, if diplomacy doesn't work, I attempt to look as unthreatening as possible. Often people won't fight if they think you aren't worthy. If that doesn't work I supposed my natural stance for fighting would be how I would start. That is with my front foot angled 45 degrees away from the opponent to my left. And my rear foot angled 45 degrees the other way. I would try to sit low to get a good grip on the earth, but not so low that I am holding on too tight to move. I would keep my front side hand up high ready to throw a big hook fist and my rear side hand tucked into my chest ready to make the power. I generally wait for my opponent to move first as it is easier to counter attacks than to make the attack yourself.

[Yamesk]

That is all very good, but sometimes we have no time to get into a stance.

As for the one suggesting "diplomacy," I agree whole-heartedly. But if someone is walking up to you and has a knife, I don't think diplomacy is an option. It's do or die.

So in the case of a life-threatening attacker, let's assume he is coming at you unarmed and you just KNOW he is going to hit you. No doubt in your mind. However as he is walking towards you, you also have a chance to strike first.

This is the ideal situation I speak of. I say the classic sock to the face, but anything that you can throw fast enough to be affective can work here I supposed.

I wanted to hear what everyone had to say though and see if it was different from my method.

[Chief Fox]

Well, if I couldn't talk my way out of it or just get out of there and i had no choice but to fight. I would do something to distract my opponent and then I would relentlessly attack.

Distract my opponent by, throwing a drink or bottle at him (assuming we're in a bar), throwing anything that is close at hand or even spitting in his face. Hopefully this would provide the split second that it would take to get the first shot in. After that first shot, hopefully take his stance away and put him on the ground. I'd then give him a boot to the head or groin and get out of there.

[Mr Punch]

...let's assume he is coming at you unarmed and you just KNOW he is going to hit you. No doubt in your mind. However as he is walking towards you, you also have a chance to strike first.As Liokault said, it's those ****ing nuns man... dropped a few like that before...

they're just walking towards you and you can just see them weighing up the guilt in their hands under their robes ready to drop some heavy catechism on you... then you just step in first and - BAM!

[Liokault]

As Liokault said, it's those ****ing nuns man... dropped a few like that before...

they're just walking towards you and you can just see them weighing up the guilt in their hands under their robes ready to drop some heavy catechism on you... then you just step in first and - BAM!


Down she goes! Every time!

[SimonM]

I don't know...

some of those nuns have powers. :eek: ;)

[Willow Palm]

All the above mentioned about having to fight, no other option, do or die- I'm a firm believer of kick them in the d!ck and poke them in the eye! If they still want to fight after that then they've earned it. Not an option you say? Fine, let them come close-suck that first punch in and root him- when that head bobs I'll get my eye poke in for sure.

I'd prefer to run however, especially if it's a nun. Most of them wear thick glasses for protection and have heavy crucifixes that work a lot like a rope dart. Forget that!

Warren

[paradoxbox]

Spit in their face. Aim for the eyes if you can. Make the movement smooth so they're flinching while you're moving in to strike. I saw a nice little report done somewhere, some guys did an experiment with spitting at training partners who were wearing full face shields but did not expect to be spat at, virtually all of them flinched and reeled backward slightly.

You always have saliva available to you and it can be used from beyond striking distance, so you might as well use it to get within striking range. Throwing keys and coins is acceptable too, coins hurt if you're good at throwing them, especially here in Canada with that heavy toonie..

A bottle of red pepper powder will do nothing more than make the guy wish for assorted roasted vegetables. Red pepper is extremely weak. If you're going to carry anything like that it might as well be made of the strongest peppers you can find, take the seeds from a pepper, grind em up and mix it with flower or baby powder for easy distribution. But it's not really practical to need to carry this unless you are in an occupation that puts you at high fight risk, or you're an idiot that is constantly around fights.

[bodhitree]

Plus with the whole pepper thing theres always the wind direction to consider.
I would love to see someone throw some pepper that came flying back in their face.


How about this, trian hard, full contact spar a lot, be in good condition, have a good spirit.

or buy a gun.

[SevenStar]

Plus with the whole pepper thing theres always the wind direction to consider.
I would love to see someone throw some pepper that came flying back in their face.



That has happened to me. I wasn't trying to spray anyone though. I was testing a new container that I had bought for my mother.

[manofkent]

Whenever I have to attack 1st, I allways allways throw a very heavy round house with my right, just bellow the knee as a test. this way you can test, 1, the strenght of there stance, 2, there reaction speed. From this you can instantly tell how trained the guy is and deside if you wanna run off, or finish him. Remember to aim below the knee (unless your looking to break it) so he cant reach and grab.

[Mr Punch]

Down she goes! Every time!Sorry boys, Liokault was there talking about nuns going down and I had to step away from the thread for some quiet time...!:o

Anyway. The rule for a confrontation is: play it by ear.

If you go in thinking of any stance or strategy, it's already too much thinking and not enough action. If you've blown or didn't get the chance for diplomacy, you've already had your time to get into the nice neutral fence stance or whatever, you've already had your chance to check for exits, sneaky mates etc, and if you know they're gonna hit you, the only answer is to get in quick.

Naturally I'll go nearest target nearest weapon. Sometimes I know there's probably a possibility that spitting in their face or something will distract them in the way in, but that's not for me. I know from experience that my spit dries up with adrenaline.

If I'm holding a glass or a bottle or something that would have to be straight at their feet. No menacing them with it, no throwing it at them, cos when they are stepping in it's gonna hit them, then you're automatically on a charge of (attempted) assault with a lethal weapon which with the martial arts training could well add up to attempted murder, and to lots of real life MA practise with a very sore arse for a long time! If you're thinking about how to distract them with whatever you're holding you're already thinkign too much. Just let it go as you go in. If they saw you holding something and suddenly you go in, they'll already be in panic unless they're on drugs or stupid (unfortunately a high chance of both).

I like your idea Man of Kent, and Bodhitree, the low kick. But, I'm not gonna wait to see the results.

This is where the combos you work in class should become important. You sense what to lead with based on whatever he's comign with and who's faster etc. For example a low straight shin kick soccer style and followed up immediately with a high punch, or a low high punch combo.

In short, there's no one answer to this question, but

1) Get in fast;
2) Nearest target nearest weapon;
3) Combo;
4) Change levels.

Hope it doesn't happen and try not to be there! :)

[Wong Fei Hong]

REAR ENTRY TECHNIQUE BABY ALL THE WAAAYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!!! :D

Oh were not talking about that kind of entry, erm ah well.

But seriously i think for me its a matter of distancing , if he is too far a flying knee sounds good, if he is in my face like a stare down a knee to the groin and an elbow. (Not too hard in th e nads you dont want to end up in jail killing the guy or doing him permanent damage.)
If you are middle range i think a front kick is always a good bet as its really really fast.

One thing a friend of mine showed me i liked quite a bit was a distraction if you are in the punch range as this is the range where i believe things are most dangerous for you , in the other ranges a thug wouldnt be able to react as well as someone who is trained.
The distraction is basically to put your palm up saying i dont want to fight you and as you say this open fingers so its a spread palm and wave it , you know kind of like a kid waving bye bye. The whole spread and wave in their face is really fast though because you subdue them by saying i dont want to fight you and by putting up your open palm they dont feel threatened.
This get them dizzy for a split second as they try and focus on that hand because everything is so tense they dont want to miss a detail, and that second they focus , take them out with your other hand.

[Mr Punch]

- Kick his knee.
- Punch his head
- Grab his blocking arm
- Take him down, and
- Crack his skull.OOOOOOOOOK.

You don't do sport, you don't play fair, and you obviously don't mind doing time!

In the real world might I suggest for example,

- Kick his knee
- Punch his head
- Run
- Call police...

?

Of course, I've no idea where you live or what kind of trouble you get yourself in, but if it's that bad I would just suggest;

- Pull your gun
- Use it.

[Mr Punch]

One thing a friend of mine showed me i liked quite a bit ...That's actually standard in the UK police force as I was trained by a police trainer... though he wouldn't admit it in public!

Also check out Geoff Thompson's stuff on 'the fence' I think he calls it.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Hi mat, he actually learnt it when he was a bouncer in the uk, never knew the police in the uk were so well trained and sly, I thought it was all in the hats they wear :D

I read quite a bit of stuff from geoff thompson back years ago and i have to admit its one of the best reads for someone who does a traditional or sport martial art as it teaches you street awareness you wouldnt get from a normal school. How to read all the signs etc etc
Plus i like the way he used to say if i hit a guy once he wouldnt get back up, but a couple of times i hit a guy and he didnt go down and i thought SH!T im Fu(ked now !!!

[Mr Punch]

Hi mat, he actually learnt it when he was a bouncer in the uk, never knew the police in the uk were so well trained and sly...You've stumbled onto a can of worms there!

It depends totally on the regional trainers. The guy I was under was the riot and h2h trainer for, among others, a large regional police force in the UK and the riot squad in London, and the Dutch riot squad and various other European riot squads through seminars etc. Bit of an expert! At the time (last trained regularly under him fsix years ago) he said that most of the UK police force's h2h training was sh!te. The compulsory training consisted of... get this... two half-day courses, one for the side-handle baton and one for restraint techs! Of course, there were non-compulsory courses available for short batons (truncheons), restraint counters and various others, and sign-up for these courses was pretty popular!

So, training with this guy once or twice a week in all of these aspects, I am a lot better trained in h2h than most UK officers!

In contrast, another of the regular teachers in that school was a bouncer and ran a training school for bouncers to gain their bouncing qualifications. Everybody needs a qualification to bounce legally in the UK, and the training is hard, because as they are not legally entitled to the same rights as the police , they have to be taught h2h very well and responsibly. Also of course, they cannot carry weapons yet they often face them. So, UK bouncers are often better taught de-escalation techs and the kind of ostensibly non-violent approaches like you mentioned.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Just wondering how do bodyguards spar ? Is it using boxing gloves/kickboxing gear , or is it more mma ?
Im sure they must spar for the realism !

[bodhitree]

REAR ENTRY TECHNIQUE BABY ALL THE WAAAYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!!! :D

.

:eek: we dont want to know this:(


perv

[Mr Punch]

You may not be able to run away all the time. The police may not be available always...
You may not alway have your gun in your pocketSure, but you may not be able to

- Kick his knee.
- Punch his head
- Grab his blocking arm
- Take him down, and
- Crack his skull.

...all the time either.

My point was depending on the situation one of the consequences you'd better have thought about with a strategy like that is that of going to prison for ten years. That's all. I never said don't use it, I certainly never said CMA was for health.

If you're going to try to 'finish' someone on the ground you'd better be prepared to a) serve hard time, and b) lose a part of the humanity that should in this day and age be overriding the animalistic urges. Unless of course what you are advocating is cracking his skull as part of the takedown (in which case shrug it's bad luck for him) what you are suggesting is execution. I don't want to become that much of a badass over some punk, and that's one of the very reasons that I train MA - to have a better degree of control so I don't need to be a stone-hard killer.

That's why for me, if the option is available I won't be there... and for me if the option is available I won't take them down and (cue badass Mortal Kombat voice) finish them but I'll take them down and run.


Read my post about not having a strategy and maybe you'll have some idea of why I think this

In short, there's no one answer to this question, but

1) Get in fast;
2) Nearest target nearest weapon;
3) Combo;
4) Change levels.

Hope it doesn't happen and try not to be there! :) ...and then run away, is a lot more sensible and realistic than this

-Kick his knee...etc.

[Mr Punch]

Just wondering how do bodyguards spar ? Is it using boxing gloves/kickboxing gear , or is it more mma ?
Im sure they must spar for the realism !Don't know about bodyguards but...
of the bouncers I trained with, one of the guys I regularly trained under was my 6'0, and wide, and 280 lbs, with a very very low bodyfat percentage. Also very supple and very smooth explosive movements. Another was 6'6", 315 lbs, big gut but very very fast and strong. Another one was a steel-worker (lifting heavy stuff all day long... very very strong) by day, 6'2" and about 220 lbs with minimal fat.

I only rarely did sparring with any of them, and then no gloves, no protection but definitely pulled punches and an emphasis on smothering any attacks, wrapping, bear hugs etc, with occasional slaps, cuffs and short kicks to the shins to unbalance if the time was right. They like slamming you on surfaces... walls and floors mostly but doors, tables, whatever was around.

The first two I described are aikido teachers apart from running bouncer training schools, and at the time they were only teaching this in advanced aiki classes, where everybody was dan grade and could take a fall. At any time during the tech they would naturally do kaeshi waza/henka waza (return techs or changing techs) mid tech. So, if you weren't on the ball you'd be on your ass halfway trhough a tech. Definitely full resistance. Of course the odd elbow would get in people's faces, the odd feet would be stamped etc so you soon learned to tighten up your act... They also of course encouraged and showed ways of getting free and from everything they showed.

The police guy from the same school taught the same way: no sparring as such but definitely full resistance.

The third one was the son of my karate teacher and there were two more bouncers in that class. They would just blindside and **** about whenever they could in the gym or the changing rooms, or outside or after in the pub! :eek: :D Great laugh but a bit dangerous at times!

[Mr Punch]

"Being able to do it and don't have to do it" is different from "Want to do it and not be able to do it". You have to:

- Be rich before you can say that money is not important.
- Be US president before you can say that power is not important.
...
- Have WMD before you can invade other countries even they don't have WMD.

In Chinese, there is a big difference between "Bu Nam - can't" and "Bu Way - don't".Great. So what does that have to do with my posts... and this thread.

No, on second thougts don't bother to answer; seems like you're just arguing to yourself for the sake of it...

[Mr Punch]

Interesting YKW. Why did you delete your post from a couple of days ago telling me the above post was all a joke and not to take it seriously?

[Mr Punch]

Interesting again... how come your reinstated post appeared above mine asking where it had gone?! Twilight zone anyone...

Anyway, it seemed like you were trying to make a point then, and then you tried to pass it off as a joke. If you have a point, please make it! If you feel another joke coming, don't give up your day job!:p

[SPJ]

In real life, you may not attack first. You will be charged with assault or intent to murder.

If you may not walk away from a brawl,

Always look for ways to exit or run for cover.

dodge, hit soft spots and run.

Your priority is the safety of your own.

:D