Theory of Choy Lay Fat's footwork strategy

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
What's the difference in application between Ba Gua Zhang and CLF Baat Gwa strategy.

Can someone give a detailed explanation of CLF baat qwa footwork theory, as well as some examples and specific applications of how the Choy Lay Fut Baat Gwa strategy is used in combat?

[firepalm]

The footwork in most complete CMA styles should be such that it can take you out of a disadvantageous situation and put you into one that provides the best opportunity for both attack and defense.

In the case of CLF their is footwork that can go in various angular and circular directions so as to evade oncoming attacks and put one into a good position for counter attack. For example stepping to the outside and forward of a straight line attack placing one on the side of their opponent.

Their is also advancing footwork when teamed with the right feints and attacks which can place you into the best position to launch one's attack.

Stability of the stance arrived at is also a factor when transitioning through the various footwork.

I am sure their are others here that would be able to better tell you the differences or similarities between CLF & Bagua footwork.

[CLFNole]

I am no authority on Baat Gwa as I only do CLF. From what I know and have seen Baat Kwa their footwork typically walks or moves aroung the baat gwa circle. They typically twist, turn and coil and use a lot of palming techniques.

Baat kwa in CLF is more of a theory of attack. As mentioned before the attacks will come from the 8 directions all the 3 gates (upper, mid and lower). The footwork will move in the 8 directions.

Like I said the two have nothing in common.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
So basically the CLF baat qwa footwork theory is used to position yourself on a 45 degree angle to the outside of the opponent using any of the 8 directions, so that you can safely launch an attack on his flank?

Are there other angles used besides the 45 degree, and if so what are they?

[firepalm]

When attacking one will of course pay attention to footwork but they also should pay attention to the gates (as CLFNole) mentioned. For example a CLF person can come in on a straightline but in doing so they launch a fake attack at one gate with the objective of opening another gate; fake a high distractionary attack at the face {high gate} and then follow through with a low kick to the groin or legs {lower gate}, (NOTE - this example is sometimes referred to as a ghost kick). While it may vary from one branch of CLF to another but there are essentially 3 to 9 gates; high, middle & low and then these can be further divided into left, right & center. The idea again is for a series of attacks to come in at several different angles each attacking different gates, the opponent may be able to cover a few but in covering up one gate another is certainly exposed.
:cool:

[Sow Choy]

Hi Kung Fu Fighter,

The best example is to picture a compass on the floor... you have 1. NW, 2. N, 3. NE, 4. W, 5. E, 6. SW, 7. S, 8. SE...

You can use these 8 directions to step in, out, back, etc... You can also use it for explaining proper foot placement when doing certain stances to help movement especially in the hips...

From my limited knowledge of bagua jerng, they walk in a circle avoiding attacks and make 8 changes (palm changes) which are the different counters and techniques... The changes possibly take place where the different symbols surrounding the yin/yang on the bagua symbol are... Maybe ask them on the internal forum...

Joe

[CLFNole]

8 directions does not mean only 45 degree angles. Think of it in terms of directions: N, S, E, W, NE, NW, SE & SW.

Man, Joe you beat me to it when I was typing. ;)

[kung fu fighter]

8 directions does not mean only 45 degree angles. Think of it in terms of directions: N, S, E, W, NE, NW, SE & SW.

Man, Joe you beat me to it when I was typing. ;)

What I mean by 45 degree angles is being on a 45 in relation to the opponent from any of the 8 directions.

I completely understand what you guys are saying about the 8 directions or 8 angles of the bagua symbol, But a smart fighter will always try to re-orient himself to face you which makes it extremely difficult to get to any angles besides 45 degree angles due to the amount of time needed to move to larger angles.

Am I correct in my understanding of the CLF baat gwa theory, if not please feel free to correct me?

[Sow Choy]

Kung Fu Fighter,

If I understand you then yes you are right. The compass or Bagua is used in terms of stepping or position but is set up so you can make use of various combos or direction changes. Which ever way you move you can reuse the compass, the middle is usullay related to your center of gravity...

Its just a means to understand direction... from there you can fly with it...

Joe

PS
In some of our forms we do a Cross pattern where we only go foward, back, right & left...

[Infrazael]

Basically, moving to an angle of your opponent, jamming them, then it becomes a close-quarters game with long arm attacks, designed to pummel THROUGH the opponent.

At least, that is our goal.

[TenTigers]

"Basically, moving to an angle of your opponent, jamming them, then it becomes a close-quarters game with long arm attacks, designed to pummel THROUGH the opponent.

At least, that is our goal."

-Gee, now why does that sound like Hung-Ga? :p

[Infrazael]

Yeah, but we don't always adhere to the bridge, like you guys. We just hit again and again. Bridge can be broken or not.

[TenTigers]

Bridging is not just with the arms. It is with the legs, stance, intent, mind, proximity,etc. Any connection, is bridging.

[brothernumber9]

word to yer mother
mo kiu, mon kiu

[Infrazael]

Bridging is not just with the arms. It is with the legs, stance, intent, mind, proximity,etc. Any connection, is bridging.

Hey TenTigers, weren't you the one who stated that Choy Lay Fut is an "anti-bridging" southern system?

I think that was you somewhere. . . . . anyways sure we bridge, but it's still really different from Hung Ga.

[kung fu fighter]

Basically, moving to an angle of your opponent, jamming them, then it becomes a close-quarters game with long arm attacks, designed to pummel THROUGH the opponent.

At least, that is our goal.


Cool but what angle are you trying to get in relation to the opponent, is it 45 degree in relation to where he is facing, roughly his side or flank, larger angles are slower to get to and therefore almost impossible against a good fighter?

Is the CLF baat gwa theory ment to be used to circle, stick and move like in western boxing where the boxer constantly changes angles after launching each attack by circling his opponent as a defense to the opponent's potential counter attacks.

[CLFNole]

CLF's fighting theory does not rely on always being on a 45 degree angle to your oppenent. If you can be that is good but we all know when actually fighting things don't always go as planned.

The CLF baat gwa footwork is designed to give the player a variety of angles which he or she can utilize. The goal of CLF is to overwelm the opponent with a lot of attacks coming from all different angles and direction, hence the use of the words baat gwa.

[kung fu fighter]

CLF's fighting theory does not rely on always being on a 45 degree angle to your oppenent. If you can be that is good but we all know when actually fighting things don't always go as planned.

The CLF baat gwa footwork is designed to give the player a variety of angles which he or she can utilize. The goal of CLF is to overwelm the opponent with a lot of attacks coming from all different angles and direction, hence the use of the words baat gwa.


It's difficult enough to try to get a 45 degree angle on a good fighter and almost impossible to get behind him. how do you guys do it.

[Sow Choy]

Kung Fu Fighter...

Thats our secret... ;)

Let me try and explain a technique using the sow choy :)

1. A person front kicks with their leading leg (right)
2. you are in a right foot foward stance
3. your right hand blocks in a downward swing, while your right foot steps NE with the toes out in a twist step, and your left arm extends out in a straight punch
4. your left steps behind the opponent and then you swing a right sow choy (swing punch, usually down diagonally) to the neck area striking with the bone of your inner forearm.

After that you can apply whatever you like, a choke, a kick, whatever...

the steps were NE the North again... But again a tool to understand where to step or go... maybe its different in someone elses school? But just a tool to help teach, nothing more that I know...

So if you need a specific technique then maybe ask for a counter...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

man language barrier is a bad thing. all these years i was taught what you are talking about and to hear you put the actions into words are pretty cool there buddy. Joe.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi'
How would you guys use the CLF bat gwa footwork theory against an NHB/MMA fighter who uses thaiboxing skills to set up a double leg takedown or to inniate any type of grappling?

[Sow Choy]

KFFighter,

You could use the bagua theory to explain where the feet go when you sprawl...

Or where to step before you sweep, or before a take down...

Just a way to help you explain a technique, nothing special...

Frankie Boy...

When you teach class 6 days a week, morning and night & have 8 kids classes a week, you learn alot about teaching with whatever you can... Language I am ok with, i usually MC for our school at banquets and stuff... You know me... Love to blah blah blah...

Joe

[Infrazael]

Cool but what angle are you trying to get in relation to the opponent, is it 45 degree in relation to where he is facing, roughly his side or flank, larger angles are slower to get to and therefore almost impossible against a good fighter?

Is the CLF baat gwa theory ment to be used to circle, stick and move like in western boxing where the boxer constantly changes angles after launching each attack by circling his opponent as a defense to the opponent's potential counter attacks.

Actually I've been taught alot of that by my Sihing who's a boxer. Anyways it works quite well with CLF strategy, and similar in alot of ways.

As for getting to 45 degrees of him? In the ring it's alot harder, but for self-defense it's not quite so hard. Use the charging horse, stance transitions, etc. I like to step outside then use a Chuen to block his strike into him, grab, and use a Sau Choy to the back of the neck.

I did that to my Karate friend and he wasn't very happy. :rolleyes:

[extrajoseph]

“Can someone give a detailed explanation of CLF baat qwa footwork theory, as well as some examples and specific applications of how the Choy Lay Fut Baat Gwa strategy is used in combat?”

CLF has 3 levels; the first level has names associated with the Sup Ji (the cross form) as in Siu Sup Ji, Dai Sup Ji and Plum Blossom, which is really a sup-ji.

The second level has names associated with the Baat Gwa (the 8 Trigrams) as in Hung Yan Baat Gwa, Dat Ting Baat Gwa and Baat Gwa Sum.

The third level as names associated with the Ng Ying (the 5 Animals) as in Ng Ying Kuen, Fu Ying and Lung Ying.

These different generic names referred to the different emphasis on the footwork and other things, which I won’t go into.

Sup Ji is mainly in the 4 directions: forward, backward, left and right and has an emphasis on basic linear footwork.

Baat Gwa is in the eight directions, the four cardinals and the four diagonals and has a diagonal emphasis on the footwork, as in stepping out 45 degree to evade and then stepping in 45 degree to counter.

Ng Ying has all the directions covered, more circular and free form like the natural way an animal moves.

So the system of training is a progression from the linear to the diagonal to the circular and then free form. In a nut shell (but in reality, a lot more complicated than that):

The Sup Ji strategy is to block, get in and then get out.

The Baat Gwa strategy is not to block, but to get out and then get back in.

The Ng Ying strategy is to roll with the punches, defense and attack became one.

Of course it is not so clear cut but that is the general idea, from the cross (or the square) to the baat gwa, to the circle, to free form or no form.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Any other thought's on the baat gwa, is it only used to map out footwork directions or is it also used as a guide for the hand and feet techniques in defense and attack etc.?

[Sow Choy]

KF Fighter...

We also call the directions of the swings the arm makes bagua sao...

again the lines represent the directions the punches go...

They can have many different fists or open hand techniques...

I usually say numer 9 is a straight line representing a straight punch/palm etc...

KF Fighter, what ma do you practice...?

Joe

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I practice mainly wing chun, but according to my research most if not all of the southern kung fu systems such as Wing chun, fujian white crane, white tiger, and quite possibly even hung gar have identical universal combat principles such as the baat gwa concept even though they may technically express them differently.

[Sow Choy]

KF Fighter...

I agree, most of the Southern Systems have some similarities even thoght are built on a different foundation...

Hung gar seems to be the style or base from which many of these took form, they have the swings, the short strikes, the pidgeon toe stances... Hung gar to me seems to be a combo of many movements and theories once leaving Shaolin...

If alot of the legends are true... Hung Gar must have been a way to try and save alot of the techniques from Shaolin...

Thats why I picture Shaolin Kung Fu (of the real and older Shaolin) looking like Hung Gar...

Joe