Shaolin / Internal Question

[Ray Pina]

I often read that Ta Mo arrived and brought internal training to the monks at Shaolin. But Ta Mo is more widely known for bringing Buddhism to China.

How was there a Shaolin temple, with Buddhist monks in place already, if the man who brought it wasn't there yet?

Just curious.

Also, I've been reading a lot about the back and forth about what "Internal" is ... and how Sun Lu Tang penned the term.

This is incorrect. I've been a student of the Tao for some time. Outside of martial arts there were two kinds of taoists: those who sought immortality from external means (the elixir pill) and those who sought it from stransforming themselves from the inside through nourishing the chi and breathing. By controlling their sexual energy. Seperating orgasm and ejaculation .... they are not the same.

This is why I always :rolleyes: when I hear all these styles have "internal" but then their practice is 100% against internal principles. Such as Hung Gar's use of the heavy arm rings. This couldn't be more wrong, from an internal standpoint.

[PangQuan]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38368

hey ray. this thread might answer some of your tamo questions.

[EarthDragon]

Ray,
Boddhidharma (Da Mo) did not bring buddhism to china, it had exsisted there for hundreds of years prior to 525.A.D his arrival.

Rather he was a teacher of Buddhism and traveled to China after giving up his worldly wealth and inheritence as his father was a king.

a cras and very short version is said he crossed the Himalaya's then deccending from the summit attempted to cross the Yangsee river on a reed, but this is misinturpurted as a reed was not a blade of the stickle plant but a reed was the name of a small boat during that time.
this crossing lead him to the shaolin temple where the emperor at that dynasty showed him the magnifincent statues of Buddha made of jade and gold. when Da Mo saw this he realized that the chinese has misconstrued and not properly understood Buddhism for what is was. and then disgusted he vowed to meditate and live in a cave until it could be proven to him that the chinese were worthy enough to recieve his teachings and become themselves enlightened. this took a little over 9 seasons.
after many came to prove themselves it wasnt until a young monk severed his left arm showing Da Mo he was worthy.
To this day this is why Buddhist monks bow with one arm. the name of his first diciple escapes me at the moment, possibly someone could give you that. hope this clears up your confusion.
be well.........

[mantis108]

I often read that Ta Mo arrived and brought internal training to the monks at Shaolin. But Ta Mo is more widely known for bringing Buddhism to China.

How was there a Shaolin temple, with Buddhist monks in place already, if the man who brought it wasn't there yet?

Just curious.

It is unclear what type of Buddhism (could be one of the Purland sect) was practiced at the Shaolin temple prior to the arrival of Bodhidarma (Ta Mo) who brought Dhyana (Chan Buddhism) to China.


Also, I've been reading a lot about the back and forth about what "Internal" is ... and how Sun Lu Tang penned the term.

One of the earliest records of the term "internal pugilism" was on the tombstones of Wang Zhannan (1617-1669 CE). So it was not Sun Lutang who penned or coined the term first. Sun, being a mystics, however was very forth coming with his insights on the 3 so-called Internal styles - Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. which he wrote 5 volumes of books on them. His descendents have republished these books.


This is incorrect. I've been a student of the Tao for some time. Outside of martial arts there were two kinds of taoists: those who sought immortality from external means (the elixir pill) and those who sought it from stransforming themselves from the inside through nourishing the chi and breathing. By controlling their sexual energy. Seperating orgasm and ejaculation .... they are not the same.

There are 3 types of Daosim - Philosophical Daosim, Religious Daoism, and Folk Daoism. Philosophical Daoism is the scholarly study of the various philosophies and the body of the knowledge of Dao (the Way). Most simple example is the studying of the Dao De Jing. Religious Daoism involve the observance of the Daoist Pantheon, ritual rites, reciting secrat text, temple life, etc. Folk Daoism is grass root level faith in Doaism. It's borderline Shamanism and highly opportunistic in nature. It could be think of as opportunistic Daoism that encompass almost all known religions' traits in the world including Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism, Hinduism, etc.

Elixir Pill was primative experimentation with hallucinogenic agents which origin would have been something similar to the philosopher's stone of the alchemists. In fact, a large number of the Daomist meditation volcaburary (ie lead, mercury, cauldron, stove, golden pill, etc...) was borrowed from alchemists. I think you have also brought up tantric practices that has been absorbed into folk Daoism.


This is why I always :rolleyes: when I hear all these styles have "internal" but then their practice is 100% against internal principles. Such as Hung Gar's use of the heavy arm rings. This couldn't be more wrong, from an internal standpoint.

Hung Gar would have been a branch of Yong Chun He Fa (Yong Chun Crane Method) which is as internal as it can be IMHO. Using Iso-kinetic training methodology (ie the 7 stars iron rings) doesn't IMHO automatically make a style external. The problem really is the misconception about external and internal. Seriously, there needed not be such a distinction except those who advocate that have the intention of making you pay more to learn the "secrets". The real secret is that they know very little or even misunderstood the essence of Kung Fu but money is good one way or the other to them. So...

Mantis108

[Ray Pina]

Shenguang was the first disciple

[TenTigers]

There is a reason many people use the term, 'external' when describing Hung Kuen. They only see the outward appearances and make their jusgements soley on this. They see iron rings, dynamic tension,hard bridging and think that is how Hung Kuen is played. This couldn;t be further from the truth. That is like thinking Tai Chi fights slowly.
Most people when they speak of internal, speak of relaxation and structural alignment, over strength. Most martial arts are based on these principles. You cannot move swiftly,or generate explosive power,(mass x acceleration) without relaxation. You cannot have any real power, or applied strength, without a proper line of force, or skeletal alignment.
I think the real difference is in teaching methods. The big three focus on developing proper structure in very high detail, through the earlystage in the students development, and the so-called external schools tend to teach the structure, and then tweak it and fine tune it as the student progresses. I actually prefer the former, but imopatient students prefer the latter. It gives them a feeling of accomplishment-instant gratification, something they can go out and use today, rather than the painstaking, investment in loss attitude of the "internalists" I am sure, when these arts were first being taught, they were all being taught the long, hard road, rather than the short-cut. I suppose when yo are teaching people to run out and fight the Manchus, knowing fully well that they might not come back, it's more like training Marines as opposed to Special Forces.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with what you are saying as far as aproach.

But teaching students to sit in low horse stance and rev up their arms with tension leads them to relaxed power how?

This sounds like adding concrete to the batch today for tomorrow's serving of Jello.

Breaking the bad habit of holding tension is very difficult. I have an external background (12 years of Isshin-Ryu, 4 or 5 of Hung Gar) and I used to love punching hard. I would say around Jan. I learned that punching hard and having a powerful punch are two different things.

A bullet is very small in mass but its velocity and torque power kills you.

We partner up and have one side hold up their shield and the other side punch for their chin with boxing gloves. In the beginning, seperate folks so an unblocked punch lands just shy of its target.

Folks pushing punches will feel it in their shoulders and tire quickly. Folks throwing their punch out can go much longer. And it's funny, but their punching is also heavier because tension is not slowing it down.

The otherside of this coin is, CAN you land the punch. Tensed punching is hard to change and certainly you need to withdraw it to send it out again. This leads to a mentality of exchanging blows, punching it out, over firepowering your enemy.

Relaxed punching looks for holes or to spring board off of a jammed attack. Can you shoot a shot from the standard "fence position" without pulling back first? Or think that you just fuk saud someone. Can you shoot from there, without adjusting? With how much power?

If you're relaxed, and you have trained your hip and shoulder to initiate the movement, the whole arm -- it's entire mass, which weights more than baseball bat -- will be heading towards its target without having to "reload."

[QuaiJohnCain]

Ray- You will continually get opposition from those who don't realize than when "neijia"was first uttered in the 1600's, it was a reference to meditation techniques, not martial jins. The "pugilism" part that mantis108 mentioned is a terrible mistranslation. "Neijia" means "Internal family", or "within the family" would be the best way to put it in english. In the case of martial arts, what makes the "family" are very specific training methods that were never a part of ANY Shaolin style, that is until people started cross pollinating the Chinese styles in the last 100 years or so. This is what is creating the confusion today. Sun Lu Tang and Cheng Ting Hua were very specific and comprehensive about the definitions they coined. Now, everything has been mixed up and there are all these external styles claiming they have internal principles. Some of them actually do, due to the recent cross pollination. Certain lines of Mantis and Wing Chun have definitely picked some up. Bajiquan is another example of a Shaolin art incorporating Taoist training principles (a **** fine job was done with that, too).

Mantis108 is right about iso-kinetic training. I use kettlebells for the same purpose. People using upper body strength for these exercises are missing the point. And, as Ray pointed out, if you do not do this, your shoulders will give out quickly. You have to use your core (dantien rotation!). And THAT is what iron ring are SUPPOSED to be for. In the case of kettlebell swings, it is paramount. What's neat about it is once you learn to be connected correctly, you can swing almost any amount of weight, though endurance will deacrease as weight increases. I'm sure the same is true with iron rings, but I've never played with them....

But, tension, at least at the moment of delivering a strike, is totally neccessary for producing "internal" power. When the muscles are contracted in unison with proper bone alignment and movement between the target and ground path, you have it. After all, it is muscular "tension" holding your bones up in the first place. Load and release are performed as though the body is sphere that contracts and expands like a balloon.

[EarthDragon]

quaijohncain,
you said
The "pugilism" part that mantis108 mentioned is a terrible mistranslation. "Neijia" means "Internal family", or "within the family" would be the best way to put it in english.

mantis108 is chinese so I dont believe that his translation would be all that incorrect. perhaps yours and his understanding may differ?

[Golden Arms]

Good points all, I would just like to add that all the stuff that Ray talked about in his last post sounds almost EXACTLY like the main concepts that I work all the time as a hung gar fighter. In fact, ray, at the very end of Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen, after the piercing bridge turn around, there are several movements where you are making a bridge that can be used for opening or closing your opponent, followed by striking them without any pull back whatsoever, using dan tien rotation as the source of power..(at least that is how I play it)...So I think it has to do with the person, not the style once again..to me hung ga is all about dan tien movement, and relaxed fluid power, with the different gings being different tools in the toolbox.

[Ray Pina]

Then I apologize to you. It's awesome if you have that ability.

I'm learning a lot right now with Ba Gua's twisting, on how the arm can he thrown out rotating clockwise say, hit it's target, then rotated counterclockwise producing another strike, and then issue power upwards at the shoulder for an uppercut, then issue the shoulder power down for an overhand .... all this with the same arm without pulling back.

I'm not that good yet. Right now I can get two shots off with good power. In fighting, the best that I have done and documented on video is intercept the hand and then sort of bounce off it like a diving board and deliver a good shot. The timing is great, because you catch the guy in a half beat.

So much to learn and train.

[EarthDragon]

ray, just a quick note............ you said

I'm learning a lot right now with Ba Gua's twisting, on how the arm can he thrown out rotating clockwise say, hit it's target, then rotated counterclockwise producing another strike, and then issue power upwards at the shoulder for an uppercut, then issue the shoulder power down for an overhand .... all this with the same arm without pulling back.

try not using the shoulder for the power but rather from the foot upwards through the center out from the shoulder. You will find your power is increased dramtically from this method.

[QuaiJohnCain]

quaijohncain,
you said
The "pugilism" part that mantis108 mentioned is a terrible mistranslation. "Neijia" means "Internal family", or "within the family" would be the best way to put it in english.

mantis108 is chinese so I dont believe that his translation would be all that incorrect. perhaps yours and his understanding may differ?

No, he's thinking, NeiJiaQuan. The quan (pugilism) part did NOT come along until 115 years ago. Though that "quan" part may, or may not have been uttered in the 1600's does not really matter, whatever it was relating to was lost a long long time ago. The reason Sun Lu Tang applied it to Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji is because at the time (circa 1880's/1890's), those were the only arts that had any shred of Taoist methodology left in them, so they were lumped together as a family. As I said before, since Sun Lu Tang there has been massive cross pollination between what he called WaiJia, and Neijia. So now, we have 500 year old styles claiming to have had "internal" training methods since thier dawn, though really those methods did not exist outside of Xingyi, Bagua, or Taiji until thier modern exponents like Sun Lu Tang, Cheng Ting Hua, the Yang family of Taiji, Wang Shujin, Chen Pan Ling, Chen Fake, etc., went public with them.

[EarthDragon]

quaijohncain,
thanks for the clearification. I thought you were speaking about the translation from the language. my bad

BTW my first sensei lives in san diego, he is one of the best martial artists I know bar none. perhaps you should take the time to look him up, he is incrediable and definatly worth meeting. he name is Les Heri, he teaches okinawan Go Ju Ryu. he is a dircet diciple of victor vega the grandfather of gojuryu in america, it would be well worht your time. do a google search on his name, for more inf PM me

[QuaiJohnCain]

:eek: Ooops I added some stuff after you read the post :p

I will PM you later today abot Les.

[Ray Pina]

Earth Dragon,

Yes, I focusing on training this right now. Relating the hand and foot. Right now they are distant cousins. I'm hoping to have them be twin brothers by New Years :)

As for the old Okinawan stuff, I love it. Sometimes I can relate to Isshin-Ryu more than Chinese material .... except Wing Chun and S Mantis. Those were two good stops for me.

[EarthDragon]

LOL trying to get the relations closer together eh? very good.....

Japanese movements though at begginer level are robotic, are easily adpated to, and once ingrained you never forget them this is why you can realate to them easier, you had to teach the body. and though it seems strange things that are taught rather than easy to come by/perfromed stay with us longer.

it wasnt until the high levles of Go Ju that the style became softer and closer to its root of chinese crane. However many years later still felt like the karate movments being rehersed so many times seemed to flow. Yet years later i felt much more omfortable with the bodys natural movments and now cant think of an other way to move...........