George Lisjak

[Shinsplint]

I heard a rumor that Shifu George Lisjak was back in Buffalo. Would anybody happen to know how to get in touch with him, other than the listed numbers which don't actually dial, but stated there was no further information?

[EarthDragon]

Shinsplint, I am not sure if he is indeed back, however I have heard that he does live in atlanta georgia. possibly I could help you. Send me a PM of email if you wish............ be well

[Shinsplint]

I heard from a source that he's back in Hamburg. No offense meant, but I'm not interested in learning 8 Step PM. I was looking to get trained in Tai Ji Mei Hua Tang Lang as I know that Shifu Lijsak is a disciple of Shifu Profatilov.

[Forkintheroad]

I also heard he was back, and was recently looking for a way to contact him, but had very little luck (not necessarily none). May I ask why you wish to find him?

[Shinsplint]

I was looking to train with Shifu Lisjak. I am interested in the Tai Ji Mei Hua system.

[Three Harmonies]

He is back. He can be reached with email.
Oh and BTW....he WAS a disciple of Ilya's.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Shinsplint]

Would you happen to have his email address? Can you PM it to me?

[EarthDragon]

As far as the Ilya diciple thing, who told you this???? this is untrue.

George listjak after getting frustrated with james shyun as many of us had, sought out other mantis shrfu's to further his training. this lead him to travel a bunch of times to NYC to learn from another Ba bu shrfu.

this got him no where so after many converstaions with one of Ilyas students they decided to send him some infomation on paper and some videos to correct some of the knowledge george learned from Dean and james. he never truley trained with Ilya as they would not give him the information he wanted and kept him at arms length due to him comming from another shrfu also he ran his chiropratic office and lived in Hamburg when do you think he had time to travel all over the world and learn closed door from ilya????

He was never excepted as a closed door student and spent less then a year studying mei Hua. After even more frustration he moved his family to atlanta Ga where he graduated from chiropractic school.

From whom did you hear this from???

[Three Harmonies]

Shinsplit
Jake is fine, and email me privately and I can give you his contact info.
Earthdragon
Ilya is my uncle. From him.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[EarthDragon]

three harmonies.... huh?
please tell me how that is possible. Geroge ran a business in Buffalo the whole time he was in contact with Iyla, second it's impossible to become a generation form learning form notes and video's

Ilya was aprehensive to give him anything as he thought George was still in contact with James Shyun.

Ilya was happy to accept his money but never really gave him any information worth anything. I heard this right from George.

So what your saying is........ I could contact a complete stranger, from another country, explain my story of betrayal, send this person money for videos and notes and then become a closed door diciple in less than a year?????

[mantis108]

three harmonies.... huh?
please tell me how that is possible. Geroge ran a business in Buffalo the whole time he was in contact with Iyla, second it's impossible to become a generation form learning form notes and video's

Ilya was aprehensive to give him anything as he thought George was still in contact with James Shyun.

Ilya was happy to accept his money but never really gave him any information worth anything. I heard this right from George.

So what your saying is........ I could contact a complete stranger, from another country, explain my story of betrayal, send this person money for videos and notes and then become a closed door diciple in less than a year?????

With all due respects, IMHO this is not a fair statement to both parties. It would imply that there was only a business transaction going on rather than some serious attempt to pass on information and learn of a wonderful art.

It is true that Ilya is very sensitive to letting his material floating around and he is not exactly the easiest person to get information out of. But we should respect his wishes of maintaining the highest standard possible as he sees fit for his own group. A compromise was made in order to accomadate George's situation and to promote Taiji/Meihwa Tanglang. There is nothing wrong with that. George has good faith as he is a nice man and keep to his end of the bargain. Perhaps he expected the good faith would returned in kind (not judging here). But relationship is a tricky thing. So no one can fault that either. If someone were to offer me similar deals I might take on it as well. This is 2005 and definitely not 1005 CE, my friends. Personally, the closer door disciple thing in general is really passe and it has no practical purpose other than status quo and elitism. It is fine to award loyalty with discipleship but looking to build such an intimate relationship does come with a price (time, effort and finance). It is not just a price paid between the teacher and the student but the whole art is placed in jeopardy under tremendous political pressure. This is why Kung Fu fell so behind comparing to other arts these day. Is this worth it? I will say no every time.

As far as my understanding goes between the communications I have with both parties in this case, I think there is fairness in the transmission of material. It might not met the time frame and expectations of both sides. Remember both sides have expectations but it can't be categorized as not worth the money or the efforts. One could say that the scale is more tilted towards the teacher in this case but it is no more or less in any other "normal" Kung Fu school. I personally feel for George but it's just one of those curve balls of life.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS Video teaching is not ideal but if you know what you are looking for a picture tells more truth than a thousand words. Just a thought. :)

[EarthDragon]

mantis 108,
I agree personally it is no one business to discuss, however once it is brought up on the internet it is open for public disscussion.

George Listjak was my kung fu brother and chiropractor for many years, 13 to be exact. He has attneded my seminars and out students practiced many times together in each other school. So I am speaking about a subject which I know first hand.

I am not sure what info was exchanged and actully only saw one video that ilya sent him, but the last time i spoke with George whci was a whiel ago, hwe was rather dissapointed in the info he recieved form Ilya and never personally trained with him, just an exchange of corrections and some material.
all this is eiither here nor there, but saaying he is a generation is a little embelished wouldnt you say? can you be in a family lineage without ever actually being taught or trained in that style?

I have recived information and videos from masters also but would never claim them to be my teacher....

I appluad his efforts as we were in the same boat of 8 step waters but is far from a meihua instructor or lineage holder

[mantid1]

I bet this Profatilov guy wont be sending anyone else anymore tapes :)

Robert can you give some examples of how kung fu fell behind other styles?

Thanks

[EarthDragon]

Mantid
Allow me to clarify.
I dont think anyone did anything wrong. Ilya just tried to help out a honest person. I dont see anything wrong with trying to assist any individual's honest attmept to gain information. I have done this also.

My only point was that I was suprised to hear that George claims to be a lineage holder of Mei Hu with never actually training with Ilya or his system.

[mantis108]

I hear you about the generation thing. It would seem from Jake's post that Ilya acknowledged that George is or was a student if not a disciple of his. Now if George said he did not work with Ilya other than receiving video material and written notes, then we will just leave it at that. I respect his privacy.

My point basically is that I personally don't believe Ilya as a Mantis teacher who has been exposed to not only the physical side of the system but also its inner core materials such as the Quanpus which clearly stated that real quality materials and applications regardless of quantity must be taught to the students. Honesty to oneself and others is one of the most important virtue of Tanglangquan. Now if he deems himself as a generation of his Tanglang line, he would be obligated to follow the creeds IMHO. Personally, I think he does take that seriously. I do think he teaches with the best intention and best interest of the art to his students. I might not agreed with some of his approaches (ie the discipleship thing) but I have respects for his teachings. In my private emails with George, I have always encouraged him to train with Ilya because I believe in Ilya eventhough I have others that suggest he is difficult to learn from. BTW, I am just stating facts and not trying to butter Ilya up. :) I will also encourage people to train with Kevin Brazier, Mike Martello and Carl Albright because these are the people that I have personal knowledge of their work.

Hi Mantid1,

Let's just contain this to compare video programs. What is the difference between buying a video of MMA, BJJ, Judo, Kali, Escrima, even JKD for that matter and a video of TCMA ? You get a performance of a "master" in the TCMA video almost 100% of the time with the exception of Shuai Chiao. If it is a really great master, he might give you an example or explanations of application(s). It is never his personal insight of how a techique used under pressure testing which really implies that he has never involved in a real fight or even sparring. You are paying for someone's performance of a form (not that much different than watching a Ballet on video IMHO). I have seen some Mantis applications on VCD that came out of mainlad China. I couldn't help but cover my head that such things that can not in reality let anyone fight out of a wet paper bag would be coming out of a "respected master". My jaws were just dropped and locked. People actually are paying good money for that?! This is just one of the many things. We haven't even get to the point of progressive thinking in systems and styles other than most TCMA. Anyway, I think you know that I am critical of TCMA because I am passionate about it and believe that it could do much much better if and only if we let go of the BS from the past.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[Forkintheroad]

Was that a joke? (the statement "this Profatilov guy"), or have you honestly never heard of him? Judging by his older post, he really doesn't seem to have a sense of humor or sarcasm when it comes to TangLang, and it's founders/ancestors/disciples. Last time some one made a derogitory remark about a member of the Plum Blossom Lineage, I believe Ilya never posted again not to mention when posted to deliver the bad news about master Wang Yuanqian, the same A**h*** ended up mocking him then as well. I took it as a great loss when Ilya stoped posting as there are very few with his level of knowledge.

I could be wrong, but I think I've seen photo's of Ilya with George, and even on archived threads I believe reading Ilya's post refering to George as a disciple. I only know what I've heard from a third party, so I can't comment on what happened as far as the falling out, not to mention it's none of my business.

[lulusweeps]

I guess Mr. Lisjak was a disciple as this chart is from Sifu Profatilov's web page.

http://prayingmantisboxing.com/genealogy.html

[baldmantiz]

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id21.htm

13th picture down....shr fu george is in the picture with Ilya

[Three Harmonies]

Earthdragon,
Dude, I like you. I really do. But sometimes you come across like you know every **** thing out there, and frankly it makes you start to look silly after awhile :o .
I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Lisjaks lineage issues with my uncle. Ilya Profatilov Laoshi is one of the Mantis' communities greatest gifts, and a very talented individual. The business between him and George is theirs. So I wish not to dispute things I know little about (I have been told what I have shared). Besides I think you can see from the website that you may be incorrect.
As for the other Babu teacher in NYC....that is Mike Martello Laoshi. George visited him and inquired about becoming a student. But Mike was leaving for Taiwan and then Europe so things did not work out.

This is all beside the point because George can teach what the hell he wants to teach to whomever he wishes. Martial arts become you after awhile and that is something not OWNED by anyone other than oneself. If this cat wants to learn from George so be it. Never met the guy, but perhaps he has some skills.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[EarthDragon]

mantis108, you said

My point basically is that I personally don't believe Ilya as a Mantis teacher who has been exposed to not only the physical side of the system but also its inner core materials such as the Quanpus which clearly stated that real quality materials and applications regardless of quantity must be taught to the students. Honesty to oneself and others is one of the most important virtue of Tanglangquan.

This is wonderful and I hope that all teachers follow this. So many old school Shrfu's were very stingy with thier knowledge and didnt give much up.

I remember always asking Shyun to see more , to which he replied, "later later" when it came to asking questionas above your level he would reply..... "you not ready for this yet, be patient" I always wished the system would be an open book.

I think it's wonderful for people like Ilya, John Chang, Paul Lin, his father and others to share openly and honestly what they know or what they themselves have been taught.


Three harmonies
I hope you dont dislike me now simply based on this post? I apologize if come across as knowing everything. Look at the quote in my sig.
I remain quite and learn about things I dont know much about and let many others here with more knowldge than me speak up. However I will speak up on subjects that I do know about.

George and I trained at the same school under the same teacher Dean Economos for 10 years before I moved to SF to train under Shyun. So I do know him very well. He was also my chiropractor as I had stated in my last post.

The only thing I said was that I find it hard to believe he is considered a diciple under Ilya.

No that his intentions were'nt good. Not that he didnt meet him, take pics with him, learn from him on some level, or from his students, attended seminars or learn any part of the Meihua style.

just that I found it funny that he is claiming Dicipleship. This I am hard pressed to beleive. I might be way off here and totaly wrong. But I would think that if such a thing hapened he would have told me the last time we talked.

Buffalo is a small town and my students and his old students still talk So I would like to think I would have goten wind about this.

But again I could be wrong, this is either here nor there and doesnt really matter to me. just made a comment on a open forum about something that struck me as hard to believe............ please dont shoot!

[mantid1]

Fork in the road

I have heard of him but never met him. Sounds like he is great. Sounds like he was helping the guy out. But after all of this has been brought up on the net I bet he will not want to help anyone else in the same way. Thats all. I dont think your friend would have been insulted, sounds like a tough guy and not a huggy kissy type.

But for you...

It is hard to bow to someone on the net. There you go I bowed. Feel better.

[Three Harmonies]

**** earthdragon, you are going to have to do a lot more than that to **** me off! ;)
Like I said I have no first hand knowledge, so I know little. Just what I have been told. Ilya has always been very kind and honest with me. Regardless George is no longer affiliated with us.
Just my 2 quint worth.
Jake :cool:

[Three Harmonies]

Do they have to edit every god-**** thing on this forum :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[baldmantiz]

**** yeah they do

[Forkintheroad]

Mantid, I thank you for bowing to Ilya, I'm sure he appreciates it.

I'm allitle late with this post, as most of what I'm going to refrence has allready been brought up. Any way, a very reputable instructor asked me to post this

"Just some info on Ilya and George you may want to post. Ilya actually traveled to buffalo on three occasions in which I was there. George went through the disciple ceremony as did John Newberry. I was at John's and watched it. Georges was 2 months prior. I myself went with George to New Haven Ct. and trained with Ilya. There are pictures on TraditionalMantis.com of our trips. On Ilyas site prayingmantisboxing.com George is listed as a disciple as Iya has not yet removed his name. I hope you can post this I just don't want to correspond with *****"

There was a name their, but I blanked it out just to not offend anyone on this forum.

[EarthDragon]

OK hold the phone. something sounds fishy to me here..........

three harmonies, you said.......
[B]Regardless George is no longer affiliated with us.

forkintheraod, then you said

George is listed as a disciple as Iya has not yet removed his name.

So he was a diciple but now isnt? did he quit or get fired? is this a job or position he held??
so he was invited into a family but then kicked out? or left ?
how can this be? once you are a lineage holder/indoor/diciple you will always be.

Dean economos is no longer affiliated with the ACMAF as most of us are'nt but he is still the only 5th generation from Shyun. this is not somthing tht can be taken away. BTW he put in 20 years with the same teacher to earn that right george put in less than 2?

its not the boy scouts where when you dont pay your dues you lose and are black balled...

This is why I was skeptical when I first heard this claim. and how many people beleived or have heard about this.

I dont see the time frame here either.

George left the ACMAF in 1999 learned a little here little there from various people, had the flood in his medical office, moved it and his kwon across the street then a year after that met Ilya and became his diciple in less than 2 years?

really? this sounds right to you guys?

forkintheroad, are you mike cimeino?

[Forkintheroad]

Earth Dragon,
Ilya's probably too busy to remove George's name, as it doesn't look like Ilya's page has been updated recently. I don't know what happened between them (only what I've heard from third parties so I choose not to repeat them), I only posted what was asked of me; from somebody who has met and trained with Ilya (however is not a disciple), and considers themselves a friend of George. I think disciple refers to some one learning formally, not someone who's learned everything, and is now working on mastering the skills.

I am not Mike, and believe my name has been dropped on this forum on several occasions. With that said I have no where near enough experience or exposure to the arts to warrant a name worth remembering. A somewhat fictions warrior once said "Your name means nothing to me" as he engaged 5 samurai who’s leader had time to name himself, but no time to dodge the blade cutting its way up his throat.

On a related topic, this same question was asked on another board, and there where 2 replies, somebody giving contact info, and the person who started the thread saying thanks. I'll try to answer your PM tonight, but as I'm at work now, I may have to wait until tomorrow.

[EarthDragon]

to the board.
I was contacted by one of Ilya's real students and asked very nicely to not continue with repsonses to these posts for reasons explained to me. So out of respect I am humbly bowing out of this thread. be well..........

[shirkers1]

listen... clearly the only way to settle this is to get jake and earth in the same room and have them both take their shirts off and strike their best mantis pose.

[EarthDragon]

shirkers, figures YOU would say that. I think you got us both beat on the shirtless poses with all the votes you recieved....... :o

[shirkers1]

Hee hee just trying to lighten the mood up a bit... :D

I still don't understand why the MA world has to be so political and touchy feely. No disrespect to any one so please don't put me on your **** lists... (if I'm not already)... I just think it's a waste of time and energy, and causes way too much internal fighting. :cool:

[yu shan]

welcome back shirtless wonder... where the H you been?

[shirkers1]

welcome back shirtless wonder... where the H you been?


Like I said, I made enough money last year with the whole mantis men of north america gang stealing from the fellow mantis community, that I was able to retire from training all together and could hire body guards to protect me from all the people I've offended in the past years. :D

Seriously though, I've been going night and day with some major life stuff so it's been hard to sit down and respond with my usual sarcastic banter. :D I still read up on you guys though here at work. :)

How are things on the pong lai front? hopefully no major disputes to speak of. :D

[Three Harmonies]

My boobs are not nice enough, Shirkers has me in all areas! ;)
Cheers
Jake :D

[shirkers1]

My boobs are not nice enough, Shirkers has me in all areas! ;)
Cheers
Jake :D

Hey I may be a boob, but **** it I don't have them.... :D Nothing but 180 lbs of pure bread skinny white boy here....

[K.Brazier]

I exchange emails with George Lisjak every so often.
Here is what he said.


" I'm back in Buffalo, still teaching Grand Ultimate Praying Mantis,

developed American Praying Mantis and will be putting out a book.

All of my training is documented with pictures and video.

Anyone who questions my skills and/or training is encouraged to openly discuss it with me in person.

My contact information is as follows

Email Americanmantis@AOL.com

Address 265 Union St Hamburg, NY 14075

Phone (716)649-8460"

Kevin

PS,
Shirkers that picture will haunt me.

[yu shan]

Look forward to the book... I am curious. No question about skills. Wish you the best on your book.

[yu shan]

woops, should have included this on previous post...everything is fine and dandy. we are a happy family, especially when my Shifu`s older gongfu brother is moving back to the states. no disputes here, all is good.

[Shinsplint]

That's what Iv'e been waiting to hear.