Some Technical differences

[hskwarrior]

okay Joe ma boy, (joe keit the pimp that is),


let's start a new happier thread. I think this one will have nothing to do with history, but all in technicalities.

In our branch, (our school more specifically) executing a fu jow while in a din ji ma, (right leg forward, left fu jow) when we do this technique usually we push our weight forward on front leg (you shouldn't be able to see your toes if you were looking down, the tip of your knee should be covering it) while at te same time extend our fu jow hand outwards.

Now, i've seen you Joe do the exact same move but your hands are right over your knee's but your straight leg is reaching kind of backwards (your back is straight) you're not reaching out forcing the guys head back as your fu jow.

Now i understand there's a difference between fighting and forms, but we like to perform our forms as if we're fighting someone, with the same intesity and focus of the real thing.

What is that called joe, the downward block in the din ji ma fu jow, lap sau?
or some may say covering palm, well, one of the differences is that we use more of the forerarm in the block and push your arm into yourself (controlling) that arm while doing the fu-jow. while i've seen others just push the hand down or cover with the palm.

[Infrazael]

Is Joe Keit the guy with the name "Sow Choy?"

[Sow Choy]

yes, i am Joe Keit...

nice post Frank,

Well for one, we use different Chinese terms, I think the ding ji ma, we call Gong ma or a bow stance... we teach it so you should only see the tip of the toes so you don't extend the knee past the toes...

The height of the stance is used to train the legs... We use lower stances to build strength and power, also you could use a lower stance if you need to force someone back...

I was always taught, that the stances should not be too low, but the longer you train the more comfortable you are at lower depth... of course say ping ma cant be lower then the level of hips and knees, for me with the gong ma, I feel that knee and hip in a staright line should be the lowest... Too many people though sacrifice their stance for what it looks like and lose the stance's function and foundation only for looks...

With us that is not the case though, we just use the forms like people use weights... If forms truly were shadow boxing they probably would look alot different...

The blocking arm we call different things, but we use the arm or even the hand into a grab depending on the technique... In the form we never set the leg back, we always shoot in with this move... meaning the stance, to remove the back leg and place it further back would mess with the make-up of the stance and also the striking distance to the opponent... Most opponents will move back, so our techniques usually go in...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

i'll show you more of what i mean when we see each other next bro.

but when it comes to forms, we take the techniques and for me , i usually think i am -when doing the form-thinking i have and actual person in front of me. i see the punches and kicks being thrown, i believe that helps to internalize certain techniques a little quicker.

that is the same thing i explained to you about "mental gung fu". while practicing mental gung fu, lets say i am practicing a block block sow choy in my head, i would visualize the guy standing right there in front of me and in my minds eye i could see him throw the punches andi would block them and hit him with a sow choy. i did this over and over in my mind. my sifu has always reminded me that training isn't alway physical.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

the gong ma you refer to, (din Ji ma) we call a "T" stance. because for us the shape the "T" is form when the foot of the bent leg forms the top part of the "T" while the straight leg's foot forms the long, body of the "T".

see, what i mean when you do the fu jow in that horse, is if you were to put your hands on the wall, then sit in your gong ma, your hands won't reach out much further.

take that same thought, and the way we do the same horse stance same positioning etc, we use the back leg to push forward on the front knee while the fu jow would go right thru the wall, where what im saying is that your fu jow would stay flush with the wall. am i making sense?

the reason why we use that forward motion in that horse is to get in close and send him flying off balance.
c wut ah mean?

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

I do this to... the visual aspect of an opponent in front of you... It helps me get some more power out of the form, especially if I am stressed out... :P

But this is thought to be a very hard thing to do, especially for beginners... But it definitely has helped me see applications for myself without someone teaching me...

I have shown my sifu some of the apps I have come up with and he asked me to show him... Usually he is smiling and says... Wah, ho sang mok...

Meaning very clever...

So yea, I do the same... But I do try to get better at my forms overall when training, the different feels, power, endurance, balance, stance, technique & overall body movement etc...

CLF is such a beautifull controlled uncontrolledness... yes?

Joe

[Sow Choy]

The fu jow...

Actually our left front foot is a bit more angled like this "/" so we can get more flexibility in the waist to send the hand out further while keeping the back straight.

That way our hips are not square...

I was thinking of a single hand Fu jow... Is taht what you mean? Or the double? With the double, the front leg we use to step inside the opponent in order to upset their gravity and the hands still go past the foot...

Which vid of me didnt go past the foot? Maybe I need more practice... :P

Well always need more practice...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

hijacking the other thread.......

joe give me your opinion.

let me set the scene first, two students are standing in sei ping ma. one students stands with his leg behind his partners--you are 160 lbs he is 315lbs.(one's facing north and the others facing south) your right leg is behind his right leg, mirror image of what you're doing. and one is going to sweep.

is it more internal or external to:

using the scenario above, take the 315 lbs guy by sweeping backwards and using no hands but he goes down anyway, you only use 30%. is that more internal or external?

[Sow Choy]

Well...

I dont believe in a difference of external and internal...

So I am the wrong person to ask...

I believe both are 2 parts of a whole...

The scene you have set up, I think i understand... Is the 160 pnd person actually sweeping with his foot moving away from the spot he was standing?

That may be difficult because of the weight... I would prefer a change into a Ding ji ma? Gong ma or bow stance, that way my weight is grounded and i can use my whole body to drop the guy rather than a move similar to a kick...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

yeah joe,

if his foot were on 12:00 and he swept backwards towards the 6:00 yes that is the one. its like retreating into the gong bo stance.

no, it's not too difficult joe. one of my students is 315 pounds, the other is like 160. i have shown them how to take down like this. Yesterday, one of my students parents came into town, and they were spying on him during class. i thought she was just a spectator, and after about 45 minutes or so of him taking down this big 315 lbs guy, she had the biggest smile on her face.

From what i understand is that his parents are proud of his improvement.

the reason why i was asking the question about the internal or external, is that i took the 315 lb down using ony 30% strength and used no hands. he wasn't going down easily but he went down. like a sack of potatoes. :D


frank

[TenTigers]

to unhijack the thread-
....I asked DF this question. I think what you are saying is when we do single Tiger Claw in say, Hungry Tiger Catches the Lamb, we lean into the strike, our back is paractically a 45deg. angle aligned with the back leg, and from what I have seen from watching Joe's form, they are more upright. He also stepped back, covered and struck, rather than charge forward, which might also change the alignment- Planting your feet,and then striking forward as opposed to lunging. DF, who is a Buk-Sing CLF guy as well as Hung Kuen, said they also do it more upright. He also said Chan Ga CLF would do it more forward, as they are alot more "Hung-like" in their approach.
HSK Is this what you were getting at? -or am I completely on another planet? :confused:

[Sow Choy]

Yes,

I can see that way...

But I would think to it in a more direct approach... Because you never know if the persons horse is more stronger than your sweep... It could be your 315 pounder needs more horse practice...

Joe

[Sow Choy]

10 Tigers,

Can you describe the technique you saw me doing where I stepped back? I am trying to figure out what form and what I was doing...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

no, no, you're right.

the only difference is hung ga is the one who reaches out and aligns the upper body with the straight leg. but very similar to what you are talking about.

it is between hung ga and what you said you seen joe do. our backs are straight, but see, we wouldnot do that move straight on. i would step out diagonally to the side while blocking then fu jow when he is off balance.

in our method, if i was to fu jow your face, your head will be pushed back first before i tear your face off. the "T" stance the way we do it allows us to get you off balance much easier. the stepping we use we call 7 star stepping similar to that of the pattern of the 7* flag.

[TenTigers]

Joe,
ok, without grabbing the DVD, it was I think in Sup Ji Kau Da Kuen, and you either stepped back with the right leg into a left gung-ma,while covering (poon kiu?) with the left and striking with right fu-jow. It might be the other way around-left/right, but you get the idea. You might have stepped back in say ping ma before shifting into gung-ma, again, Iwould have to check the film.
-Rik

[TenTigers]

HSK- I like that angle. Iwill have to play with it. I am always looking to improve my footwork. We press with the forward arm-jai-kiu, and literally uproot the opponent while striking with the palm under the jaw. We try to drive right through him. We can also use the forward hand as a pak-sao, while striking forward with the claw/palm as well. Some Hung players like to sit back, cover and then drive, but I find it slow. I am not such a great fighter that I can sit and wait. I'd probably get killed. I need to be more aggressive. Perhaps when I am ,ore experienced, say in aboutten more years, then I can sit, and wait. Of course, I'd also be 58, and us old ****s are alot more patient with you young'uns! :)

[Sow Choy]

10 Tigers,

Yes, usually we do a horse with a chuan (pierce block), Then poon kiu, cum jerng (circle block cover palm) then the fu jow goes...

Frank,

I hear ya with the 45 angle, most do that for flexibility in the hips... We just train the bow stance more to get the same kind or flexibility without opening the legs so much...

But in person would be better to show & tell...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

joe,


thats why i got little guys working at dropping the 315 lb'der. he locks down in a horse and they are to use their legs only.

lets say the guy lunges and jabs, you block and step in simultaneously getting your leg behind his then "woomp" he hits the ground.

all the little guys in my school all attack the big guy, if they can take him down they feel good about theirselves.

then we spar with no gloves. that is the funnest part. i am out there sparring with them too. its understood, if you get hit, its "Your Fault"! haha!

i've walked right into a punch during sparring before, but continued on sparring because i still had one good eye left.

peace

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

Good idea, I use that technique myself...

Carefull with spariing and no gloves... that usually leads to not so many in class due to injury...

:)

Joe

[hskwarrior]

10 tigers,

yes, but now try taking that same technique and instead of thrusting that palm to the jaw, stay close and thrust upwards through the ribs. you'll lift him off the floor even higher, not to mention break all his ribs at the same time.

joe,

are you challenging me? :D just kidding.

is it hot and sunny if florida?

frank.

[Sow Choy]

Frank,

Actually, we are feeling the effects of another hurricane, so its windy and raining here... The hurricane is very south of me mainly hitting the keys and effecting miami...

Challenge you...? heh heh I have nothing to prove...

If I were gonna fight you, trust me... you would know ;)

Joe

[TenTigers]

How do you guys throw sow choy? I was taught two ways-one with a flat fist or bear fist or bear paw, the other with ngau gok kuen=ox horn fist. I find that the bear fist is easy to develop power, but it is also easy to hyperextend your elbow, whereas the ngau gok kuen also has the benefit of being able to hook around the bridge, or block.

[Infrazael]

TenTigers >

Almost every CLF guy I've talked to is taught the same way: with the inner forearms.

We do not hit with the knuckles. IMO, that's just asking to get your hand broken.

I think you might be confusing the Sau Choy with the Kup Choy.

[Sow Choy]

10 tigers...

I usually keep my hand sort of relaxed and use the inner forearm like Infrazael said...

I also like cup choy and pek choy, if I want to use my fist...

The real hard part is setting up the sow choy... That takes lot of practice... Its good to set it up while blocking or striking preparng the arm in the back with the fist about shoulder level at the exact time of impact of the arms strike/block... This really forces the waist to turn for the other hand, and can help set up and quicken the combo...

Love those Sow Choys... That really is our edge guys, a bunch of my students used alot of sow choy combos in a tournament in Orlando last july, and man... They were all over the opponents in the matches... Some people complain that we fight wild... but hey... We train very hard, ya know... But Sow Choys and other swing strikes are not so common I see in other styles... So CLF & Hung Gar brothers, train them swings...

Joe

[TenTigers]

we use the chop choy into sow choy off the lead arm, the same way a boxer throws jab-hook off the jab. I picked that up from DF-Buck Sing CLF. I also like to throw been choy through their guard, real deep so it clangs their noggin, and follow up with the other arm swinging sow choy right behind it,finish up with a gwa/kup combo. or three. Also Been into step through sow choy, and open up into biu jong-that is in our leopard section. yeah, like we're not supposed to know that that entire section was added by a CLF guy! It's funny, all this time, we thought that CLF was developed from our leopards section, only to find out it was probably the other way around! No bother. In the Hung that i learned, it seems that everyone for the past three generations did CLF first, so our Hung is very CLFish. Bucksom Kong teaches CLF and Hung together. I wonder what his curriculum is like. It sounds interesting though.

[iron_silk]

I was looking at pictures of you previously on your website and notice you have a rather low, wide, and powerful (I assume from the pic) horse stance.

Yet I recall a story you told before about identifying some people practicing your branch of CLF because of their close high horse stance.

Did I remember the story wrong? just curious. Thanks! :)

[iron_silk]

about the horse stance thing...if I got the your story would you mind letting me know?

[Infrazael]

I was looking at pictures of you previously on your website and notice you have a rather low, wide, and powerful (I assume from the pic) horse stance.

Yet I recall a story you told before about identifying some people practicing your branch of CLF because of their close high horse stance.

Did I remember the story wrong? just curious. Thanks! :)

PM a guy called sean_stoneheart (search for him around. . . . that might not be his exact name).

Good friend of mine, i think he was the one who said the Fut San uses a narrower, higher horse.

In LKH, at least in my school our stuff looks like Hung Gar's horse, bow, etc. I like to keep it nice and sunk.