what will we do, brother joseph?

[hskwarrior]

now joseph,

i have a question for you and only you.

From day one, the fut san hung sing branch has always stated jeong yim was sent to the green grass monk. Just for conversations sake, i would like to hear your opinion on this. be open minded now.

Knowing that according to the fut san hsk, jeong yim went to the green grass monk. all these years the chan family disavowed the green grass monk. then in the early part of the new millenium, chan family members switch up and say that all of a sudden they find the green grass monk was really choy fook.

I will say that they have the last name, but is that proof enough to break the cai deZhong theory? i am not satisfied cai dezhong isn't ggm, yet.

again, if the chan clan claims that choy fook is ggm, and we have always stated the ggm monk thing, then how does that work? if chan heung sent jeong yim to his own teacher to learn and complete his training, then how isn't jeong yim and chan heung classmates?

why does the ggm exist in their camp now, and not previously? you don't see how that could look a little shady? it seems that the chan clan is twisting it to their favor.


Jeong Yim's teachers:

Chan Heung
Monk ching cho wo serng.

Chan heungs teachers:

Chan yuen wu
lee yau san
choy fook

choy fook = Green Grass Monk= Jeong Yim's teacher=jeong yim and chan heung becoming classmates.

remember, the ggm has always been a part of our history, now its a part of theirs.


can you eplain for me?

[Kennyfist]

From another thread:

7) If Choy Fook was green grass monk then Chan Heung and Jeong Yim could not have been class mates. By the time Jeong Yim even met Chan Heung and started to learn kung fu, Choy Fook should have passed away if I'm not mistaken.....

8) If Choy fook was not green grass monk then green grass monk has likely nothing to do with CLF since CLF was established in 1836 by Chan Heung.... Now when was Jeong Yim born and when did he meet Chan Heung?

[hskwarrior]

shut your trap,

now you'r answering for joseph?

i said shut yuur mouth.

uh. dd..d.d.d.d.d.d.d.. i said shut your mouth little boy.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I know you don't like kennyfist that much and he is like a little terrier that when he gets a bite he won't let go, but I am afraid he's kinda make sense in his "doggy" way!

Hey, Jeong Yim was a loyal and trusted indoor disciple of Chan Heung. He travelled with his sifu everywhere to spread CLF. He only went to Futsan after Chan Heung decided to retire and went back to King Mui Village.

The fact that he asked Jeong Yim to take over Futsan from Chan Dian-Dun who went blind, showed that he had great faith in Jeong Yim. Futsan, was like it now, a much bigger and more prosperous town than Sun Hui and Kong Moon, which were left to Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy. Chan Heung gave Jeong Yim the best territory, because he was the best.

The way you guys carried on, made him looked like he was a man full of himself, disloyal and untrustworthy. You know, in those days, once you became a disciple, you stay with your sifu for life, you don't go and study with someone else and then have the hide to come back and share knowledge with him! You will be a laughing stock and you will lose respects amongst your peers.

The real truth is Jeong Yim was a great CLF player and he stayed with his teacher until the very end! He did not learn with anyone else except with Chan Heung and he gave his whole life to CLF. He was a great MA and had the respects of his peers and we should not belittle him just to satisfy our own ego and greed.

That is my take, Frank.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

Oh, what will we do?

Give him back the respect Jeong Yim deserves, make him the greatest team player there is. He made CLF great, he was up there with the best, on par with Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy and we should not forget it.

He made Futsan Hung Sing one of the best place to study CLF and we should continue his legacy without bringing in all these dubious charactors like GGM and Cai De-Zhong. Jeong Yim don't need them, he was a great CLF man in his own right and we should resppect that.

EJ

[iron_silk]

HSK,

I know you did not ask me to answer but I found part of your post very interesting and relevent to not only to history scenario but also to present situations.

I am refering to when you said that if Chan Heung sent Jeung Yim to learn from his (i.e. Chan Hueng) sifu, Choy Fook, shouldn't they be classmates?

Well I am not sure how others or how the general martial arts community view this BUT this is how I feel:

Once your sifu always your sifu. Period. Choy Fook (or GGM) would be Jeung Yim's SiGung. I think it is cool to be taught by your SiGung with your Sifu's blessing without changing the already established relationship. I wouldn't think Jeung Yim would want to stand on equal footing as the person that taught him so much to begin with. I think the initial relations sets the tone for it all. (BUT ultimately each situations depends on the particular circumstances).

Thanks for reading.

[extrajoseph]

now joseph,

again, if the chan clan claims that choy fook is ggm, and we have always stated the ggm monk thing, then how does that work? if chan heung sent jeong yim to his own teacher to learn and complete his training, then how isn't jeong yim and chan heung classmates?

why does the ggm exist in their camp now, and not previously? you don't see how that could look a little shady? it seems that the chan clan is twisting it to their favor.


Brother Frank,

I forgot to answer this one. I rememebed the Chan Family website put up a picture of Chan Yiu-Chi's manuscript a few years back, showing he said Choy Fook was GGM.

You have to remember, Chan Yiu-Chi wrote this long time before the GGM was ever mentioned by anyone (he died in the early 50s I think, when there was no contact between Hong Kong and the mainland). So he could not have made it up, that information was always in the family.

I remembered the story about the GGM only surfaced in the early 60s, when there was a struggle in Hong Kong between the elders of the different fractions of CLF, and we are still feeling that bad vibe 4 decades later and some of the old players like Chui Kwoong Yuan is still here with us....

Lets stop fighting, Frank. Tam Sam did not need any GGM to make himself look good, he just fought his way to glory. Let Jeong Yim shine on his own too, don't lump all that sh.t on him just to try to make him look as good as his Sifu. He does not need it nor does he wanted it I am sure, he was good and one of the best we ever had, so let us do him justice!

EJ

[Golden Arms]

Here is an awesome idea..lets all talk about a topic that is a total dead horse, and that is impossible to prove one way or another. On top of that, we should argue over this topic instead of spending the same energy in training and improving our skill, possibly alienating people of similar skill levels that we could have trained with to further our arts in a realistic environment.

****! Am I the only person that never ceases to be amazed at how much "kung fu" spend energy on everything except just getting really good and dropping their ego? Lineage war isnt going to make your footwork, power generation, or eyes any sharper or better.

Just my .02

[extrajoseph]

"There is no reason in the world to fight (over lineage), but every reason to know how (the lineage came about)."

:D

[David Jamieson]

reading a couple o' white boys talkin about ancient chinese lineages is like listening to david duke talk about the plight of black people in the USA before the civil war.

It's my comment and you can say what you like about it, but you guys have been picking at that zit for a long time.

such anger!

where's your f u.ckin kungfu for pete's sake guys?

It's one thing to have a lineage, that comes by your teacher, that's all it is. It speaks not one single sound to what kungfu you have in your hands, if you guys after all this time don't have what it atkes to deal with this as kungfu men, then why not drop it and let it be and never speak another word about it.

thank you.
/rant

[tvl]

reading a couple o' white boys talkin about ancient chinese lineages is like listening to david duke talk about the plight of black people in the USA before the civil war.

It's my comment and you can say what you like about it, but you guys have been picking at that zit for a long time.

such anger!

where's your f u.ckin kungfu for pete's sake guys?

It's one thing to have a lineage, that comes by your teacher, that's all it is. It speaks not one single sound to what kungfu you have in your hands, if you guys after all this time don't have what it atkes to deal with this as kungfu men, then why not drop it and let it be and never speak another word about it.

thank you.
/rant
From what Ive been told was that Jeong Yim was an outsider of Chan Village and he had to go and was sent to learn from GGM, it was kept a secret from the village, if they found out they would got angrier and thats why Chan Family was quiet about this legend, plain and simple. ( For Jane Hollander )

[Kennyfist]

Is this Hsk and/or associates trying to build a mob mentality effect with different alias and using Jane Hallander?

I wonder....?

[tvl]

Jane Hallander is a great author of CLF, part of the story came from her, she is resting in peace and i respect her life work on CLF...

[Kennyfist]

Yes, Jane Hallander was an author on CLF wasn't she?....

Now that you brought up her name, don't to typical HSK-effect and ignore relevant point.....

WHERE DOES JANE HALLANDER MENTION THIS GGM LEGEND AND CHAN HEUNG'S GROUP KEPT QUIET ABOUT IT?......

DON'T TELL ME "BY WORD OF MOUTH" SHE SAID THIS AND THAT TO SO AND SO....

HINT: CLF BOOK REFUTING GGM LEGENT.......AUTHORED BY DFW AND JANE HALLANDER !.

[extrajoseph]

O ma God! There's so much discrimination out there about our lineage and how it works, us yellow folks just don't know how to tell you white folks that you have got us all wrong.

It's really racious to say that the Chan clan ganged up against Jeong Yim, cos he was just a nice little boy down the next village and his old man was a good friend of the family. Us yellow folks are all peace loving people and we would never think of treating him bad and kicked him out of our homes, cos it is not in our nature.

He was like a son to Chan Heung cos that was how we always treated our sifu. We would never think of running away and learn from someone else and then come back to tell our sifu how to suck eggs! That's not Chinese!

Do you get it, you white folks out there? We would never do such a thing cos our great sage Confucious always tells us to respect our sifu like our father.

So please don't insult us, don't make up these terrible terrible stories, you white folks out there, and make us yellow folks sounded like a bunch of cold hearted animals.

You get it? Us yellow folks are reasonable people and we have got a warm heart. You just go and discriminate against your black folks and leave us yellow folks alone!

You get it?

:D

[hskwarrior]

kenny fist

you keep talking ****, and i haven't been on here in a few days. you better pray i never meet you you little sniffling, red=headed step child, no real thoughts of your own havin' joseph jockin' "Josephyou're myhero" no body who is desparate to be heard, lil' MF.

Joseph,

get a hold on your protege'.

Now i have been raised around chinese all my life, why are you trying to pull the wool over these peoples eyes and act like chinese don't treat non-chinese, or outsiders badly? that's a lot of crap! chinese folks can be the rudest people i have ever met. there are some exceptions, but stop painting the picture of this, it is not true.

Now, joseph, explain something to me. If the chan family branch was open to teach everyone, then why does the chan family have secret records that only the chan clan get to see? why is it that the chan clan only teach these secrets to other chan family members? No one outside the chan family has access to these documents.

so, if the chan family possess documents that only chan clan members can see, then why is it so impossible that the chan heung refused to teach their gung fu to jeong yim? he was an outsider!?

and once again, you say the chan family records are written by chan yiu chi. you have two genertions before him the father and the grandfather (chan Hueng). How many years had since the creation of clf, and the writing of this chan family manuel? How possible is it that the chan family lost some records, information and such over time? why should we believe chan yiu chi's account of the history?

Now, you said it yourself brother joseph, Jeong Yim was one of the most famous students to come from Chan heung, right? And the fut san hsk has always said that jeong yim was the man in clf during that time. you even said it yourself. he was a shining star in the sea of clf.

Now, when we all say the same thing about the same person, it makes me wonder. On choyleefut.com.cn the chan family doesn't mention jeong yim on that page with chan heung's picture on front. It doesn't mention him in that history one bit.

But it does mention loong Gee Choy, as one of the most outstanding students. But we are saying, and that includes you too joseph, that jeong yim was one of the most outstanding students of chan heung.

According to our branch, jeong yim was the only outsider (meaning he was the first) when he was a 12 yr old boy in chan heungs camp. he became one of the greates students to come from chan heung. this is according to our story.

according to the chan, loong gee choy is the first outsider. and he was their most outstanding student of chan heung.

now, if the both of them claim to be the only outsider in chan heungs camp, and both sides name these two as "the" most outstanding student of chan heung. it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same.

speak to me, brother.

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

so what are you saying about the chan family, and the jeong yim family and the green grass monk.

are you saying that the chan family may be wrong with choy fook being ggm?

[hskwarrior]

david jamieson,

pls don't refer to me as a "white boy" i kinda find that racist. and with that term for a caucasian, it says to me "a person whom only sticks with white folks, are clueless to other cultures, and believe that white people are superior."

i am not like that in any manner, and actually place the term white boy along side of the "N" word. if you are going to refer to my ethnic background, pls do so without the term "white boy in it".

i would greatly apprectiate that.

thanks.

[extrajoseph]

Joseph,

get a hold on your protege'.

Kennyfist is not my protege, he is his own man and you have to deal with him yourself, what he says has nothing to do with me.


Now i have been raised around chinese all my life, why are you trying to pull the wool over these peoples eyes and act like chinese don't treat non-chinese, or outsiders badly? that's a lot of crap! chinese folks can be the rudest people i have ever met. there are some exceptions, but stop painting the picture of this, it is not true.

Frank, you need to have more of a sense of humour...


Now, joseph, explain something to me. If the chan family branch was open to teach everyone, then why does the chan family have secret records that only the chan clan get to see? why is it that the chan clan only teach these secrets to other chan family members? No one outside the chan family has access to these documents.

The Chan family documents are the properties of the Chan family, no ones gets to see them, not even other members of the Chan clan, unless they are invited. They are not secrets as such, they are just records of their knowledge and experience passed down for the benefits of the future generation.


so, if the chan family possess documents that only chan clan members can see, then why is it so impossible that the chan heung refused to teach their gung fu to jeong yim? he was an outsider!?

Family records and teaching are two different things, it is like you own a building is not the same as not allowing others to use your building. Get it? Chan Heung never refused to teach Jeong Yim, whose father was a friend of the family and they lived just down the road. They are neighbours or "tung heung" - people from the same county. So this myth about Chan Heung refused to teach Jeong Yim is just that, a myth.


and once again, you say the chan family records are written by chan yiu chi. you have two genertions before him the father and the grandfather (chan Hueng). How many years had since the creation of clf, and the writing of this chan family manuel? How possible is it that the chan family lost some records, information and such over time? why should we believe chan yiu chi's account of the history?

Chan Yiu-Chi is human just like the rest of us, so he could have written things down in a biased way, but what I was trying to say was that when he wrote about Chan Heung being GGM, he had no idea there will be a controversy on the title years down the track, so he could not have made it up just to upset your apple cart.


Now, you said it yourself brother joseph, Jeong Yim was one of the most famous students to come from Chan heung, right? And the fut san hsk has always said that jeong yim was the man in clf during that time. you even said it yourself. he was a shining star in the sea of clf.

Now, when we all say the same thing about the same person, it makes me wonder. On choyleefut.com.cn the chan family doesn't mention jeong yim on that page with chan heung's picture on front. It doesn't mention him in that history one bit.

But it does mention loong Gee Choy, as one of the most outstanding students. But we are saying, and that includes you too joseph, that jeong yim was one of the most outstanding students of chan heung.

That is not true, Jeong Yim was mentioned in the front page right below Chan Heung's picture and he was named at the same time as Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy. Frank, can you read Chinese? Do you want me to translate the relevant bit for? Nah, I don't have the time..


According to our branch, jeong yim was the only outsider (meaning he was the first) when he was a 12 yr old boy in chan heungs camp. he became one of the greates students to come from chan heung. this is according to our story.

according to the chan, loong gee choy is the first outsider. and he was their most outstanding student of chan heung.

now, if the both of them claim to be the only outsider in chan heungs camp, and both sides name these two as "the" most outstanding student of chan heung. it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same.

Brother Frank, when I read things like the above, I think you need a lesson in logical thinking. Just becaudse they don't have the same surname as Chan and they are both good at CLF, it does not mean they are the same person! See, you are pretty good and I am pretty good too (I think), we don't have the same surname and we both do CLF, does it make us the same person?

I hope I have spoken to your satifaction.

:D

[extrajoseph]

joseph,

so what are you saying about the chan family, and the jeong yim family and the green grass monk.

are you saying that the chan family may be wrong with choy fook being ggm?

Frank,

Chan family record showed Choy Fook and GGM were one and the same person, so the story about Jeong Yim having studied with GGM is really saying Jeong Yim only studied CLF and nothing else. Get it?

;)

[hskwarrior]

but wait,

if jy's father and chan heung were good friends, what happened to jeong yims father approaching chan heung after chan heung beat some german, cat to ask chan heung to teach. this came from you, back in the days.

so which is it, chan heung and his father were good friends, or was his father watching a match and was impressed with his abilities, so he approached chan heung.

now is jeong yims father jeong kwan, or is that his uncle? according to our story jeong yims parents were killed, and jeong kwan took him to chan heung.

joseph, i am open to hearing both sides of the story so i may have my own take on it. so, if i am wrong, show me my errors, and set me straight. but understand, i will dispute until proven undoubtedly.

because at the end of the day, there is only me out here working hard to try and research our history. wrong or not. earth was once thought to be flat. im going to be to one to prove the world is round.

see, i haven't just researched my branch, but with whats available, i have also researched the chan and buk sing branches. so i am not only interested in my branch, but in the truth of clf as the way it should be. and if im wrong in the end, then so be it. its not like a death sentence. at least i would know the truth. regardless of whos wrong or right.

[Sow Choy]

Wait a minute...

EJ, are you saying Chan family records say Chan Heung is the GGM? I thought recently Chan family stated Choy Fook was GGM?

Just want to know, maybe a mistake?

Joe

[hskwarrior]

in theory i do get it.

in one sense, i see what you are saying. thats cool.

but on the other hand, no matter how much my sifu taught me, if i were sent to his teacher to complete my training, i would have a special relationship. one of a student, and one of a classmates since me and my teacher are now of the same teacher.


see, chan heung started him out, and according to our branch, chan heung sent him to the ggm. be it choy fook. according to our branch, jeong yim came back to chan heung after leaving the ggm.

now clf was not in its complete stage in 1836. it was only initated then. jeong yim came back to chan heung after learning new or different things from ggm, and since the two of them are now from the same teacher, i can see chan heung saying "what did sifu teach you." and Jeong yim demonstrates. Chan heung perhaps felt that the stuff jeong yim learned was worth adding to the system chan heung already created.

this is where our version of the story comes in, together they add the new moves, and took the clf to new levels. this is where we of this branch say he became the co-founder, maybe on a smaller scale since chan heung already established clf so far by then. and this is why we get upset, because regardless of whom the real ggm is, and both sides now agree that he existed, our branch says jeong yim was kicked out, not by chan heung but by the elders in king mui.
chan heung sent him to the ggm.

i see both sides and i still feel the same.

[extrajoseph]

Joe,

My mistake, Choy Fook was GGM, not Chan Heung.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

whoa,

this is getting freaky.

who is the Green Grass Monk?

Choy Fook?

Chan Heung?

or Cai DeZhaong?

i thought the chan family had ggm down as choy fook?

maybe im wrong.

peace.

[CLFNole]

Wait I thought the GGM was Chan Siu Pang. ;)

[hskwarrior]

shhh,

don't tell anyone else nole'. :mad:

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Sorry about that mistake with Chan Heung being GGM. Here is my final reply to your question: what will we do, brother Joseph?

Jeong Yim was good, there is not doubt about it, and the Chan family and everyone acknowledged that. He was one of Chan Heung's best and most trusted disciples, on par with his son Koon-Bak and his eldest disciple Lung Ji-Choy. Together, with many others of course, they built the foundation of CLF to make it what it is today.

Sure, he may have helped Chan Heung clarified a few things like Joe did with his teacher Lee Siu-Hung like he said, but he did not co-founded or co-created CLF, there was a clear lineage and a clear protocol. All these myth about him being thrown out of the King Mui Village and went to study with GGM and come back to show Chan Heung how to do it are just myths.

They were made up in the early 60's as a result of the struggle between different sections of the CLF world in Hong Kong at that time. Don't forget it was the time of the Cultural Revolution, there were great fights between the left and the right sides of the politics and there were riots and demonstrations all over Hong Kong. These political struggles also affected the lives of the CLF elders and they ended up taking sides against each other.

The left and the right used whatever that was available to fight each other and history is a powerful weapon. In order to weaken CLF as a potentially powerful political group (many of the CLF elders were ex- Nationalists), the people with vested interest tried to fragmentize the CLF fraternity with new myths and new stories to change history and to change allegiance, so the CLF practitioners would not stand together as a powerful group.

The Buk Sing group was always a little on their own but the Hung Sing group was strong at the time, so Jeong Yim and the GGM myth were used to pry us apart. Well, they have succeeded and their liars are still affecting us today.

Times are different now; what they did was necessary for the time, but for us the new generation, we should not be tied down with their liars and we should move on.

Cheers, I am definitely going before these posts become an addiction!

EJ

[iron_silk]

If Jeong Yim learned from GGM (if Choy Fook or not) he would call GGM "Si-Gung" and Chan Heung would ask him what did "(my)Sifu, (your)Si-Gung teach you"

done.

[Sow Choy]

Hey,

What do you think the history will sound like 100-150 yers from now?

Or for that matter, how will our generations be remembered???

Or our teachers...

Just a thought...

Joe

[brothernumber9]

we have video, print distribution, photos and the internet.

[Sow Choy]

Videos & Pics true...

But the stories of the people...

Unless they start some reality TV shows... (One of Li Siu Hung would be a ****er!!!)

But I have people ask me about things they have heard and its not even close to what is real in todays time...

Joe

Hey... maybe a new thread of future misconceptions of todays CLF players...

:p

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Are you tvl or is he your protege?
Someone's way of talking and reasoning sounds familiar to someone else...doesn't it?
Remember how you got kicked off the forum....then this "new member" appears on the scene who sounds and reasons like you? Something like "he made some very valid points"........how do you understand the concept of "valid" ?

From previous post:
" Today, 02:31 AM
tvl
Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2

Jane Hallander is a great author of CLF, part of the story came from her, she is resting in peace and i respect her life work on CLF...

tvl
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#14 Today, 02:35 AM
Kennyfist
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 156

Yes, Jane Hallander was an author on CLF wasn't she?....

Now that you brought up her name, don't to typical HSK-effect and ignore relevant point.....

WHERE DOES JANE HALLANDER MENTION THIS GGM LEGEND AND CHAN HEUNG'S GROUP KEPT QUIET ABOUT IT?......

DON'T TELL ME "BY WORD OF MOUTH" SHE SAID THIS AND THAT TO SO AND SO....

HINT: CLF BOOK REFUTING GGM LEGENT.......AUTHORED BY DFW AND JANE HALLANDER !."

NOTE THE NAME JANE HALLENDAR !

[Kennyfist]

Another thing,
tvl tells us something like blah blah pain and simple. ( (according?) to jane hallendar and then next post proceeds to tell us PART OF THE STORY comes "from her"......

he(?) sounds like you doesn't he? Is tvl (or you? I wonder.........) TAKING PART OF SOMEONE'S STORY AND REJECTING ANOTHER PART AT OWN LIBERTY TO FIT SOME "MODEL"......LIKE WHAT YOU DID WITH THE CHAN FAMILY RECORDS......(REMEMBER YOU TOLD US WHERE YOU GOT INFO ABOUT CHOY FOOK'S SCARRED HEAD? NOW YOU CLAIM JEONG IS TRUE FOUNDER OF CLF?)

BUT WAIT....TVL SAID JANE HALLENDAR IS AUTHOR ON CLF....... WHERE IS IT MENTIONED BY JANE HALLENDAR ABOUT GGM STORY AND CHAN HEUNG GROUP QUIET ABOUT LEGEND?....

DID TVL (OR YOU, HSK?) IGNORE THE HINT ABOUT A CLF BOOK ASSOCIATED WITH JANE HALLENDAR ?

[Kennyfist]

Another thing HSK,
are you back to making personal insults and threats?
Maybe you don't realise that you are in a way digging your own grave by saying you represent blah blah "manager" and then proceed with abusive PM's. personal attacks and threats.....and BTW you are also in a way "ANSWERING" my questions by " SAYING A LOT" through AVOIDING THE QUESTIONS AND SILENCE.

IF YOU MAKE MORE FAULTY REASONINGS AND UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS......YOU DISPLAY MORE OF YOUR "SCHOLARSHIP" (OR LACK OF) ARE YOU STILL SOME SORT OF "OFFICIAL HISTORIAN"?

[Kennyfist]

Hsk
Quote:"now, if the both of them claim to be the only outsider in chan heungs camp, and both sides name these two as "the" most outstanding student of chan heung. it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same

This is getting funny....

Now if A says Pete sampras is the most oustanding tennis player of the 20th century.... and B says Andre Aggassi is the most outstanding tennis player of the 20th century......

And both sides also claim BOTH ARE MEN and BOTH PLAY TENNIS and BOTH WERE ALIVE IN 20TH CENTURY quote: .""it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same."

SO USING YOUR TYPE OF REASONING THEN PETE SAMPRAS = ANDRE AGASSI?

WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE IS THAT? WHAT KIND OF REASONING?

IS THAT THE WHOLE OF YOUR "RESEARCH" FOR YOUR JEONG AND LONG CLAIM?

[Kennyfist]

hsk, Maybe You Need To Think Harder!

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
Are you contradicting yourself again?

Quote:"it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same.

[Kennyfist]

oh, and Hsk where did the chan clan say that long Ji choy was " the only outsider"? You mean outsider as in not surnamed chan? Doesn't the Chan Heung's group say Jeong and Long are 2 different people and BOTH were Chan Heung's students?

Can you point to where? You won't get away with saying chan clan said "by word of mouth" this and that to so and so......who in the chan clan?

[JAZA]

Keenyfist,

take a ritalin bro

[hskwarrior]

why yes, kenny, actually i am. :D

and what do you plan on doing about it, you pscho arse little twit.

nothing, thats what.

[hskwarrior]

kenny reminds me of a half retarded red headed step child.

he asks all these questions, over and over and over and over, he is so dumb he fails to realize that since he's not a clf guy, and this is a clf debate that he is not a part of, i have no need, want or desire to do anything but laugh at him.

reveal your self, kenny and your bs style of gung fu. what style u from?

who's your teacher? show us your picture. you've seen mine. you've seen my websites.

now where is yours. come up with one first, and i will answer all your dumb arse questions kenny.

you must obey my commands, first before you get to debate me.

regardless if i am wrong or right about the history, one thing can no be denied.
i am the current manager of our school, i have put my whole life into clf, and it is in my heart and soul. phuck history, my gung fu is GOOD! how is yours, kenny?
wanna show me?

oh, and i also said i was about 13 or 14 years old when i started. dispute that knucklehead.

thats the only thing kenny thinks he's good at, is disputing. but he has no answers for me, and he quotes dfw's book as a reference. and we all know how dfw is?! :confused:

mob mentality? kenny come up with your own terminology. stop jocking joseph.

how does it feel to know joseph keeps his distance from you kenny? isn't he your hero?

now since joseph is a big old pimp daddy who gets the "wimmens" (who said that, Ou Ji?) i am on his side.

kenny the history will not make your kung fu any better, so why don't you go back to training if you do any at all, and leave the historical clf debates up to the clf people who will make a difference.

[hskwarrior]

no tvl is not me, he did pm me tho.

you need to realize kenny, tvl hasn't threatened you, i have.


hahahahahahahaha. sucker.

you wish you knew clf history like most of know our branches history.

all you do is throw out disputes. it makes me wonder if you are recording our answers so you may one day say that you have researched the history.

you're a joke dude. a straight up, serious, no joking around, wouldn't tell you a lie, joke!!!!!!!!!!

internet ninja. he's probably serpent. or slurpent for that matter.

hahahaha. sucker. i mean kenny.

[Kennyfist]

"My style? .....Maybe you can call it the way of fighting....without fighting...." :D :D

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
How did it feel when kei lun didn't "agree with you" ?
Quote from Kei lun :"Sifu McCarthy, please dont say "all the Hung Sing Koons" as if you speak for us all. I am also Hung Sing Koon and I dont agree with many of your statements or the way you present yourself. You say you have contacted all the Hung Sing Koons in the world, have you ever contacted the Hong Kong Hung Sing Koon? Im sure you find different stories when you talk to different people.
Im trying not to speak against you, your intentions are in the right place but you are being pushy, but please dont group us all up because you dont represent all our views. Good luck !"

[TenTigers]

not fer nuthin', and I think someone mentioned this before, If Jeong Yim started out as Chan Heung's student, then he is and will always be regarded as his student. Period. Teacher for one day, teacher for life. No matter if he went above his head and learned from his teacher's teacher. He is still his teacher's student. Not co-founder. BUT he could still be recognized as the founder of his line. Just as Tarm-Sam is the founder of Buk-Sing CLF,Wong Fei-Hung is founder of Guongdong Hung-Ga,Tang-Fong is the Founder of Tang-Fong line of Hung-Ga. Nobody disputes Chan Heung, Wong Fei-Hung, etc
Frank, there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. There is nothing wrong with saying,"You do it this way, we do it that way" I was taught Tang Fung and Lam Sai-Wing versions of Hung-Ga. Y'know what? I like them both. I also know that some people refer to Tang Fong as LSW's junior, some as his equal under Wong Fei-Hung. Do I care? Nope. I do what I do. Does it change my Gung-Fu? Nope.
So, let me ask you something. Why are you going to such lengths to be so argumentive? If Chan family says that recent information says that there was a GGM, and now they are accepting it, fine. It's kind of like finding Ji Siem's records.
It's cool to know, but it won't change the way Hung-Ga was, is, or will be played.

[hskwarrior]

ten tigers.

Once and for all lets get something straight. "I am not the only person in this world that promotes the hung sing fut san lineage and our story. if you were to search, you will find im not alone.

I may be one who believes in it the most because for a good number of years now i have been researching what i can, contacting elders, and what not. much more than most of you have ever done for the history of your branch.

It is not my fault that "all" of you guys are so swooned by the chan family account of their own personal history. Jeong yims branch is another story. none of you guys have really ever heard the hung sing kwoon history until i got here some years back. my sifu's site is one of the "first" to publish our version. and of course, there are those of you who immediately dispute our version without doing your own research.

still, because it contradicts the chan family version, you chan supporters all rally over to the chan side, and stand up to the hung sing version. thats fine, i don't mind, because i would do the same thing.

How come no one has ever done the research and said, no frank, i've checked the hung sing history and this is where they are wrong and show me so i can have a moment and discuss this with you.

as i've said, none of you have tried to speak to anyone who has lived through it, or speak to their children who may remember something about their relatives. none of you have compared notes to not a god darn thing. but i have. i have put in the work in emailing, speaking in person to the elders, i have a few writings about our history in chinese. i have a fair amount of resources when it comes to researching the history.

but none of you have even tried to understand what the times were like in china from 1836 to about 1940. Secrecy was paramount. it was the difference between life and death. but since all of you will never experience that, all you guys are is doubting thomas'. and you have never seen the beheadings of the boxers or from those who were suspected to be involved in the revolution. i have had the oppotunity to see some very old footage of this happening.

all of you guys sit back and think life was just great for chan heung, or jeong yim. nothing to worry about. there was no cultural revolution going on. the government didn't just kill people because they could, huh? The ching didn't keep burning down the shaolin temples because they feared what they were capable of, did they?

even in 1851, choy lee fut wasn't in its complete stages. it was in creation up and even past chan heungs death. so to say jeong yim couldn't have helped to complete the system which would have changed their relationship just a little.

people like kenny keeps up about when the chan side says Jeong Yim came around, but when will he check with the source of the hung sing kwoon, fut san to see when they have their founder at what time. why is he telling basically something someone else said. chan heungs version to the hung sing kwoon history is only hearsay because it didn't come from the fut san hung sing kwoon.

[iron_silk]

you already assume everyone else is wrong...what's the point?

You already claimed that no one has done the research compared to you. You are the only to do it and you & your sifu is the only one believe in it enough to publicly state it.

AND we don't research and we side with chan. You see how confrontational it is?

Don't worry though...I think Kennyfist is much worst than you. Good points or not. You have matured quite a bit since years ago.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Just out of curiousity;

Assume that Frank is 100% correct. So what? If Frank could prove that his branch's history is the actual fact, what difference would that make to everyone?

Fact is, we can all do our best to piece things together, to dig up factual information from credible sources when available...and to use common sense.

But assuming any one side is correct, or more realisticaly, that each side is correct to some degree, where does that leave us all?

Respect everyone's versions, discuss and debate, but truth is, none of us will ever be able to say that we are 100% correct. We'll never know.

With that being said, maybe we can talk more about techniques, or applications, training methods, etc. Wouldn't we all benefit more from that?

Kudos to everyone who is trying to get their story/point across. You've all pointed out some very relevant information.

[Sow Choy]

LamaPai...

Beautifully said...

But this is the Jerry Springer site of Kung Fu... :p

Lamapai,

Lets start a thread about techniques with the chnese terms we use and see what we all are using... Maybe start with an individual technique 1st...

Joe

[Ou Ji]

That sounds cool but can you guys throw in a pic or two when you do that? I have little in the way of names for moves so I'd like to be able to relate them to moves that I know and see what I can learn.

I get lost in the descriptions sometimes.

[hskwarrior]

lama,

the only difference it would make, is now we can begin to tell our own history according to the direct branch i am from. no more your story is wrong ours is right and only right.

but "we" have our version of whom jeong yim was, what he was about, etc.

we just want to tell our story as it was passed down to us. our history deserves to be heard, and you are not hearing from john cousins sister best friends uncles second cousin........

the information is coming directly from the source of my branch. so why everyone shoot it down without even considering what is said.

the history is no big deal, just a small part of the bigger picture.


peace

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I agree Frank.

Tell your story.

To avoid the bickering, accept those that don't believe what you do. Everyone has the right to beleive whatever they want, right?

We are all familiar with the five elements, right?

My mother, may she rest in peace, was a master of using them, although she never knew any KF. Let me explain.

The five elements teach us how to dissolve, supress, overcome, destroy and pierce our opponents physical attacks/techniques. But, they also should be used in other situations OUTSIDE of MA.

When my Father yelled at my Mother when I was a kid, she would usually speak calmly in response, even wisper. Sometimes she would laugh. But she wouldn't yell at him. This would sometime make my Father even madder (for a bit) or he would realize there was no need to yell and begin to calm down. Either way....You guys are all using fire vs. fire. Frank is yelling...then someone tries to yell louder, and someone else even louder, etc. The only time you fight the same element vs. the other, is when your's is stronger.

Water does a great job at putting out fire, so does earth. So is your point is not getting across, try a different method. If you could not pull a technique or concept off on an opponent, what would you do? Would you use the same one over and over again while getting puched in the face everytime? I hope not.

All I'm saying is; you guys aren't getting anywhere, or enlightened for that matter, with your current assaults. Try a different approach and maybe you all might be open to listening and learning from each other.

Just wanted to share a thought with my CLF bretheren.

JOE, I agree. Let's start a new thread. And Ou Ji,...let's get some pics up as well.

[TenTigers]

Frank, instead of posting againand again, why don't you simply put up a nice website on your branch, include your lineage, not in a confrontational way, but simply as information-just as we all do, and have be done with it.
If you look around, for the most part, everyone puts out their version. I have seen so many different Wing Chuns, Weng Chuns, Ving Tsuns, and all have a different story. Everyone agrees to disagree. I'm sure behind closed doors, there are probably guys saying, "Ng Mui? Who does he think he's kidding?" but nobody thows any temper tantrums. In Hung-Ga, everybody has a different story-Bucksom Kong doesn't even mention Hung Hei-Guen in his lineage, but nobody screams bloddy murder. Jane Hallender (rip) in her book misspelled the Hung ji to mean red. Nobody rode her out on a rail. To this day, there are so many people using the myths they saw in Shaw Bros movies as real. What can we do? It's pointless. You have no idea how many people think Hung-Ga is Tiger and Crane only. I can go on, but as you can see, it's like stamping out fires. One goes out, and another one starts. Besides, what you are doing, although your motives are sincere, puts you and your organization in a bad light. I know it must be very frustrating-(well obviously, look at the great lengths you are going to) but there is a better way, a higher road.
Do you remember when a certain shuai-jiao guy put down Doc Fai-Wong and CLF as a peasant art? Only HIS iron palm was real, yadda-yadda. In trying to promote himself, he did it by putting down others, and made himself out to be a real *****.
Another well-known Wing Chun guy came on the scene, and said he had the real deal, and everyone else had only a modified version. We all know where that led to.
But, there are guys like Adam Hsu, Yang Jwing-Ming, George Xu,Doc Fai-Wong (yes, DFW)and others, who simply write articles that are very informative and just put information out there. These people are highly regarded and well-respected.
There is a right and a wrong way to go about this. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
Frank, you come from a very long line, and your Sifu is well-known and repected. Don't tarnish this by putting yourself in a bad light, but instead bring good attention to your family by writing great articles and putting up a great informative website. I'm sure all your CLF brothers would help contribute any info and pics if you simply asked. After all, family is family,whether it be parents, brothers and sisters, or distant cousins.-even illigetamate step-children like myself! :)
Hey, I dated a CLF chick once, can I come to the Bat Mitzvah?

[hskwarrior]

ten tigers,

i thought thats what i did by telling everyone about the two websites i have put up. they are only free sites so you have to type in the direct address.

1) hsclf.zoomshare.com

2) hungloonghungsingkwoon.zoomshare.com


now, thanks to everyone including lama who made the most sense.

thanks everyone.

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

Qote: "How come no one has ever done the research and said, no frank, i've checked the hung sing history and this is where they are wrong and show me so i can have a moment and discuss this with you."

Discuss? How can you discuss without answering questions asked of you, and jus throw insults and threats?

Hasn't someone already showed you WHERE YOUR STORY SEEMS WRONG?

DIDN'T YOU START A THREAD ABOUT DEBATE AND THEN TOLD SOMEONE HE CAN'T PARTICIPATE?

BTW DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO HAVE "DEBATED" ? HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND "DEBATE" ?

[Kennyfist]

hsk,
Are You Going To Answer?