A Sanjan Question ?

[mufty]

There are many Sanjan, it seems that a version of Sanjan (Sanchin) exists across all the Oriental martial arts.

I love Sanjan (Sanchin), and over the centuries I have been training I have come asross Two from the Goju ryu one streight line and one with turning. One from the Uechi ryu, one from the Fujiban Baihe.

The basic principles are the same, body movement, breathing, and body tension.

However the interesting thing about Sanjan (Sanchin) is the diffrent emphasis on the stance, speed and breathing in each school.

As a student I was led to belive that Sanjan should be very slow, with forced breathing, in a very tight stance, with clenched fist. Any turning was performed by crossing the legs.

This is similar to the Goju system.

However my favorite Sanjan (Sanchin), is the Luechi ryu, this is performed at three speeds and at diffrent body tensions, with open hands. and and turning is performed while the rear leg is kept in place.

At present I am learning the Southern Chinese Fujiban Baihe version. Which I feel may be more original, and from where the above came from?

The Luechi ryu Sanjan (Sanchin) is very similar, but the White crane version has no turns, but is performed with open hands. However I have since then been learning another White Crane dance which is an extension to Sanjan this has turns, and incorperates some clenched fist techniques.

I find this subject very interesting and would very much like to hear from you guys. :)

The questions are :-

'Do you practice a version of Sanjan ?

'What are your stance characteristics ?

'At what speeds do you practice ?'

'How do you breath when performing Sanjan ?

Regards :o

[TenTigers]

I learned several versions; the first was sanchin kata, I learned this in Kyokushin Karate. Very hard, exagerrated breathing. The next version was Okinawan Goju-Ryu, not nearly as "vocal" with the breath, more internal,taught packing the breath,sipping the air, you really couldn't hear the breathing.Very different. I then learned some version of Sam Jien Kuen-still unsure of its origin. Similar to the Goju version, but with open hands. Southern Praying Mantis' version of Sam Bo Gin, has the packing breath,sipping the air, very similar to the Okinawan version, but more detailed, more involved, more packing, holding,with small releases.
I am interested in learning Fujien Bai He and possibly Ngo Cho versions, so I can further understand this set. It has taught me so much, I can definately see why in Okinawa, they say,"Three years Sanchin"

[Normski]

HI MUFTY,

I practice "Sanchin" from the NGOR CHOR version
from what I understand ,our version is nucleus of NGOR CHOR system.
Sanchin contains elements of WHITE CRANE,MONKEY, LOHAN, TAI CHOR
(Emperors fists).
I'm not a leading authority ,but I was shown a TAI CHOR form from General Song.
The style(Tai Chor) is also known as SQUARE BOXING ,because of the precision of angles
of body and hands.the form(Sanchin) also contains the four principles which
appears as a root of southern boxing :float ,sink,swallow and spit.
that root appears in Praying Mantis first form ,which is not to disimiliar from
"Sanchin".................................................. ...............!

love and regards
NORMSKI.............................

[mufty]

I am interested in learning Fujien Bai He and possibly Ngo Cho versions, so I can further understand this set. It has taught me so much, I can definately see why in Okinawa, they say,"Three years Sanchin"

Yep Sanchin (Sanjan) is a very important form/dance, and seems to be the connecting tissue of the Oriental martial arts.

What I find interesting and would like to know is the diffrent ways of stepping in your sanjan. Also where is the focus of power derived in your Sanjan?

In the Okinawan Sanchin kata the power is derived from tanden breathing, and the toes are pointed inwards to really tighten into the floor. The Goju sanchin stepping is very half moon, and the turns are performed by crossing the legs, however the other Okinawan Sanchin from Uechi ryu, has similar stepping, but the turns are performed without crossing the legs. Also the most important aspect and diffrence between these two schools, is that the Uechi ryu forms are all based upon the Sanchin stance, yet the Gojuryu forms also include the more familiar karate stances. This I find interesting as Sanjan stance within the Chinese Fujibaihe is generally the prefered stance.

How do you step and turn.

If you log onto www.nikawakai.co.uk and follow the link to Martin Watts Bai He Chuan there is some very good info on Baihe sanjan.


The style(Tai Chor) is also known as SQUARE BOXING ,because of the precision of angles of body and hands.the form(Sanchin) also contains the four principles which appears as a root of southern boxing :float ,sink,swallow and spit.that root appears in Praying Mantis first form ,which is not to disimiliar from "Sanchin"

Hey thanks. You know we all use these words to describe what we do, float - sink - spit - swallow, we need to communicate, on a more descriptive level. As a lot of what we do is lost in the translations.

I have found the Breathing cycle within all the Sanjan similar, in through the nose and out through the mouth, the subtle diffrences are internal, the focus of tension within the body seems to be the important aspect when performing sanjan.

In the Karate Sanchin we tend to really put a lot of tension into our bodys, which is derived from a strong abdonial breathing, and the the breathing seems to very hard. We also do a form called 'tensho' the breathing cycle is the same but the breath power is softer, this is more like the Baihe sanjn.

Also the feet positions are very diffrent, but the overall look of the body is almost identical.

The power within the Baihe sanjan is more within the centre of the chest, and the techniques although strong are more fluid.

Also the stepping varies as I mentioned above.

I would very much like to here a more descriptive posting of your way of doing these movements and breathing methods.

regards

Mufty

[Normski]

HI MUFTY,
Let me give you ,from what I been told. It is only a brief desciption
of the four principles.
As I said I'm not a leading authority,

TUN =SWALLOW- To absorb the incoming force of your opponent
TOU =SPIT - To release concentrated energy on your opponent
FAU =FLOAT- To unbalance your opponents energy and centre of gravity
CHAM= SINK - To use techniques to "bring down" your opponents techinques

These principles are used in SANCHIN ,there are other contain within the form
including Iron Shirt

My standard is only basic,and there are others who's standard is higher
and also depth of knowledge...........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!
enough "yapping" ...............

regards NORMSKI........................................... .................

[TenTigers]

FCTT also describes body connection and movement to develop faht-ging. Float is rising energy, and the body extends and is behind the strike as well. Sinking is dropping the weight/structure,swallowing is concaving the body, and drawing inwards,spitting is release,expansion. These all come together to develop a coiling,loading, and releasing of energy.
Again, I am only a beginner in CMA, so I am only scratching the surface. Perhaps in a decade or more I can give a better understanding, but for now, this is my view.

[mufty]

Hi Normski

That were a good answer in plain langauge.

Hey TenTigers that were pretty in depth for a beginner

Still :- What I find interesting is the breathing cycles, and focus of body tension when performing your 'sanjan', and what stepping methods do you all use?

I look forward to hearing from you all again

kind regards

Mufty

[TenTigers]

In the version I practice, I step across with the front foot to turn. The footwork is circle stepping, ball of the foot sliding and then root.

[mufty]

In the version I practice, I step across with the front foot to turn. The footwork is circle stepping, ball of the foot sliding and then root.

This stepping and turning is similar to the Uechi ryu version, but the
Fujiban Bahi he, has crane stepping which is slightly higher stepping. The circular stepping seems to be almost standard in the Okinawan Sanchin kata.

I notice your an oldy' like me and that you will not compromise for comercial reasons , me to I lopve the traditional arts and the work required to obtain the skill, and health benifits.

Is Tentigers the name of your association? have you a web site? please post the address.

our web site :- www.nikawakai.co.uk

regards

Mufty ;)

[TenTigers]

Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy is the name of my school(s) but my website is down at the moment. We've been open for over 20 yrs in NY

[Innocence]

Heya, i'm the same style as Normski.

Our stepping, and the form itself is linear in fashion. I dont know if that's what you wanted to know, because you seem to keep asking about the stepping.

Everything is fairly relaxed, but there is tensioning is in the back.

EDIT: But I'm also a relative beginner. :)

I think the only way to describe the breathing is that we do it in accoradance with the floating swallow sink and spitting.

[Normski]

HI EVERYONE,
The stepping in SANCHIN is also a sweep with the leading leg.
Most of the weight is on the back leg ,to allow the front leg to: block kicks.sweep
and obviously kick at speed.
If your in a position ,where your leading leg ,circle side steps his legs
(I hope I have described this O. K) so your leg is behind his..
Release a open sanchin palm at lightening speed to his chest, you will send your opponent
flying...........................!!!!!

yours NORMSKI..................

[mufty]

HI EVERYONE,
The stepping in SANCHIN is also a sweep with the leading leg.
Most of the weight is on the back leg ,to allow the front leg to: block kicks.sweep
and obviously kick at speed.
If your in a position ,where your leading leg ,circle side steps his legs
(I hope I have described this O. K) so your leg is behind his..
Release a open sanchin palm at lightening speed to his chest, you will send your opponent
flying...........................!!!!!

yours NORMSKI..................

Thanks NORMSKI, thats the way we apply the stepping, here at Ni Kawa Kai.


Everything is fairly relaxed, but there is tensioning is in the back...................

This is similar to the Fujibihe Sanjan method, Also the abdominals are tensed. Infact When I was learning Sanchin the back although strong was sort'a rounded, but not to the extent of being weak, but enough to strengthen the muscles, in the back and sides.

We test our back strength and positioning, by having our partner push down and somtimes if the student is experianced we hang from their shoulders.



Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy is the name of my school(s) but my website is down at the moment. We've been open for over 20 yrs in NY

I look forward to seeing your site 'ten tigres' when its restored.



When we practice Sanjan/Sanchin we are physically tested, through our partner hitting designated points on our body. Do you guy's get tested?


I used to demonstrate Sanchin and have my students break lengths of wood across my upper arms, and my forarms, and shins, have any of you seen this lately or done somthing like this recently ?


I look forward to hearing from you.


Regards
Mufty

[mufty]

So it seems that not many of you practice Sanjan in one way or another ?

This I feel is a bit strange.

Come on guys lets hear from you.

Regards :)

[Normski]

HI MUFTY,

One of the ways SANCHIN ,is expressed is through a "Catcher"
SANCHIN becomes a two man form .
The" Catcher 's job is to test your Sanchin by feeding opposing movements and
testing your balance using four principles.
After a while the Catcher ,develops his own skills and can literally sense where
his opponents energy is being directed,and counter those movements.
In NGOR CHOR ,other forms are caught and have opposing movements ,such
as, "LIP SUP KUN" (Twenty punches), "TIEO CHIET"


Regards NORMSKI

[Andy]

Normski,

You mentioned 4 principles used by the "catcher." Could you possibly list those 4 principles?

thanks,

Andy

[joedoe]

Float, sink, swallow, spit (fou, chum, tun, toh)

[David]

Several Southern Mantis "saam bo gin" videos are viewable at www.tonglong.co.uk, amongst other things.

You need a basic registration to get in.

Rdgs,
David

[mufty]

Several Southern Mantis "saam bo gin" videos are viewable at www.tonglong.co.uk, amongst other things.

You need a basic registration to get in.

Rdgs,
David

Thanks David Ill look them up

Check out this :- www.nikawakai.co.uk
and look for the videos
also look for the Link to Fujibaihe

Cheers :)

[KwaiChangCaine]

Since sanchin exists in Fukien White Crane and Ngo Cho is comprised, in part, of white crane it would seem reasonable to consider white crane the source and others derivatives (karate styles).

The fujian baihe version from the fellow in the UK ( who's name escapes me) is very similar to the version I have seen from Ngo Cho.

[joedoe]

There are several Fukien arts that have a Sam Chien set that are not necessarily related to white crane. I think it is probably fair to say that it is a concept that is Fukien in origin, rather than from white crane.

[mufty]

There are several Fukien arts that have a Sam Chien set that are not necessarily related to white crane. I think it is probably fair to say that it is a concept that is Fukien in origin, rather than from white crane.

Of course today this is true, however we must not forget that the origional Shaolin 5 ancestors were all from the same temple in the north, and during the Manchurin occupation the Shaolin were persecuted, and all seperated, through China. Also the White Crane portion of their system was said to be quicker to teach the people of China in their quest to fight the Manchurians, so maybe the White Crane was the predcessor to what we are all doing today, and that San Jan / Sanchin / Sam Chien is the connecting form ????

[Ben Hor]

There are many Sanjan, it seems that a version of Sanjan (Sanchin) exists across all the Oriental martial arts.

The questions are :-

'Do you practice a version of Sanjan ?

'What are your stance characteristics ?

'At what speeds do you practice ?'

'How do you breath when performing Sanjan ?

Regards :o
>
>
1) The Beggars Art contains this form it is called Sam Chian (The Three Fights or Three Battles)

2) Bent knees, leading foot turned in slightly, semi-circular footsteps. Three steps forward, three back again, one more forward (seven in total). No turns.

3) Always slowly. Breath is expelled by contraction of stomach muscles. Rising and falling. Clenched fist changing to open hand for strikes.

Sam Chian is our first kwoon toll and is also the basic/beginners form for internal strength training. I was told that this form originated in the Southern shaolin temple.

Best wishes

[TenTigers]

Ben Hor,
Do you play this with flat fist, pheonix-eye, or spearhands?
TT

[Ben Hor]

Ben Hor,
Do you play this with flat fist, pheonix-eye, or spearhands?
TT
>
Spear hand, although that term isn't used within the Beggars Art, for the strikes. from the strikes the open hands are clenched into fists as part of the release/escape movements.
>
Best wishes

[KwaiChangCaine]

JoeDoe,

What arts other than Ngo Cho and White Crane from Fujian / Fukien have the Samchien? I read in this thread a reference to "beggars art" but never before heard of it under that name. I understand that White Crane as well as Ngo Cho have additional tension taolu that build on Samchien foundation. Are these present in the other arts as well??

Thanks for any insight you provide.

[Ben Hor]

JoeDoe,

I read in this thread a reference to "beggars art" but never before heard of it under that name.

Thanks for any insight you provide.
The term 'Beggars Art' is a nickname given the system over the centuries. It's formal name is Fong Yang (Sun Phoenix) kung fu. Fong Yang (now Feng Yeng) being the name of the prefecture where the system originated. Fong Yang is in An-Wei province (now An-Fei!). The nickname came about because up until quite recently villagers used to leave the village every three years and travel around China and Asia to raise money. This they did by selling medicines, giving medical treatments, hiring themselves out as bodyguards and so on. Quite often it would be a mother and daughter travelling; Other times a man on his own. Due to this habit/custom they became known as 'Beggars'. However, they were not beggars in the sense that we think of today.
>
This custom led to the art being established in other areas such as Malaysia and Hong Kong. It also led to the inclusion, over the centuries, of forms from other styles. For example Buan Kune Choon (Manchurian Walking Stick).
>
Hope this helps.

[Shaolin Master]

Fujian styles with san zhan core

taizuquan
wuzuquan
hequan
yongchunbaihequan
shifa
huzunquan
dishuquan (gouquan)

Others do not have specific sanzhan but have similar basics incorporated:
Longyanquan
Luohanquan
Niufa

Generally accepted that Taizuquan being the older has the reign of mother sanzhan with hequan a close second. Where wuzuquan was built on taizuquan foundation and hequan core. Although in current formats all have developed and evolved.

Kind regards
Wu Chanlong

[TenTigers]

are there any vids showing taizuquan sanzhan?

[Shaolin Master]

There are few different lineages of taizuquan each has evolved so their sanzhan differ slightly (typically in the additional movement, like many styles additional fundamental core movements are added to their sanzhans) but the base is identical to wuzuquan.

In addition in accordance to the taizuquan (or Wuzuquan) Quanpu as handed down by my grandmaster Miao Yue, it makes clear reference to sanzhan (the first of the many zhan's in wuzuquan) as taizu sanzhan.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[KwaiChangCaine]

Shaolin Master


This is interesting information. The more I read the more I realize how little I know. Do i understand the following correctly?

- Taizu is a Fukien style (I understood it was the northern longfist parent)?
- You seem to be using Taizuquan and Wuzuquan ( Ngo Cho Kun ) interchangibly. Is this true?

Please clarify and thank you in advance.

[Shaolin Master]

Correct.
The Taizuquan metioned is Fujian Taizuquan. (Not to be confused with Hebei Taizuquan)

Since my grandmaster Miao Yue was a master of Taizuquan and then later added wuzuquan, our style is called Taizuquan but the contents are of both Taizuquan and Wuzuquan. There are quite a few lineages with this mix up.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Mulong]

At this moment there is vcd of Liang, Shouzhong doing a luohan version of sanzhong.

[Shaolin Master]

Luohan practices San Zheng - 3 Straights (As opposed to San Zhan/3 Battles), which are Head, Body and Stance. Since each of these influence other parts (Such as correct stance requires the waist and hip etc.....).

[Mulong]

Thanks; I realized the difference after my post.

[PlumDragon]

sanzhan also exists in some styles of karate (I dont recall which ones but there was a simialr thread about this on some other forum) as advanced forms.

I also know a pai lum set that my sifu referred to as "Inner Kung Fu" which used a sanzhan stance but the form was different from the sanzhan set thats being talked about here.

[Innocence]

sanzhan also exists in some styles of karate (I dont recall which ones but there was a simialr thread about this on some other forum) as advanced forms.


I think it's okinawan. :)