View Full Version : Gou Lou Cai
Hook, Grasp, Pluck are my basic understanding of these three keywords.
It would be interesting to see the variation in concepts attributed to these keywords from family to family.
Ou Ji
09-23-2005, 08:12 AM
I've seen some discussion on this in the past when I was lurking and not posting. Hoping to see some more good discussion in this thread.
I have some thoughts based on my limited NM training but they don't seem to coincide with the popular opinion. Something occured to me that gave me a non-standard view of 'pluck' which I have yet to discuss with anyone and haven't tested it yet either. It will take some training and very good timing skill.
I'll just lurk here awhile and see what the experts say. My ideas are usually met with narrow minded, IMO, resistance.
EarthDragon
09-23-2005, 09:23 AM
oso, good topic. In my experience I have seen variations in only the plucking. This I feel might vary from style to style. alot of tiimes 8 step has things that came from other styles but resemble the tech's origin. sometimes obvious sometimes you have to look a little.
yu shan
09-23-2005, 09:38 AM
I had a Jook Lum PM student try my class for a few weeks. He learned our gou lo tsai (sp). I noticed he grabbed from underneath on the controlling hand. We control with controlling hand on top and side if we are pushing out. I showed my students how I could easily escape from this underside version, a move out of the ling side to bengbu.
maybe one place to start would be with some of the different spellings...just tried some searching in the archives and didn't come up with much for gou, lou or cai.
some people spell 'gou' as just 'ou', right? and 'cai' as 'tsai' ????
K.Brazier
09-23-2005, 07:14 PM
Gou shou is a hook hand.
It is divided into xu and shi which is to say empty and solid.
Empty is a hook without a solid grab.
Solid is a hook wich becomes a solid and firm grab.
The hook hand does not imply a push or a pull.
When it pulls, it is usually called tsai or pluck.
When gou pushes it is usually called feng or seal.
But WHF of HK 7* wrote in a book a slightly different definition.
"Gou is diao(tricky), it is false and towards the outside..."
He defines diao shou,"...hook firmly the attacking hand..."
So you will see that there is a small difference between all the different schools of Mantis on the definition of these types of grabs.
Kevin
Thanks, Kevin. This thread was of course inspired from your comment in the last email.
would you mind giving the tones for 'xu' and 'shi' as you are using them?
Empty is a hook without a solid grab.
as in 'sticking' or 'sticky hands' ?
Solid is a hook wich becomes a solid and firm grab.
when i practice our 'GLC' basic drill I always think of the 'gou' part as actually two parts...the 'intercepting' empty hooking hand and then the 'solid' grabbing part.
in application I rarely grab, preferring to stick, follow and crash....of course, my body type lends itself to the crashing part :D
When gou pushes it is usually called feng or seal.
man this is great stuff you posted....
ok!.......do you still count it as 'feng' no matter if it is 'xu' or 'shi'!?
for me, i prefer to 'feng' w/ 'xu' as I think it gives me better sensitivity vs. a hard grab which, imho, takes some sensitivity away.
diao shou,"...hook firmly the attacking hand..."
ok, this is a biggee for me...for those that remember, much less give half a wormy rats ass...i came here some 5 years ago looking for mantis as I'd been learning a 'system' of mantis for 10 years. But, as I branched out via Sifu Cottrel's article in IKF in 99 or so about a 'coming together of mantis practitioners'; I found inconsistancies. Go figure. Anway, over the last few years I've found bits and pieces of what I was taught in what I've been reading and learning. One of those is 'dwee sow' (that's how I spelled it in some old notes) which was a hooking defensive manuever against an attacking punch. 'dwee' is close enough to 'diao' and 'sow' is certainly an aproximation of cantonese for 'hand'
ok, done...i got to work at 6:55 this morning and left at 9:45...I have at least two more bourbon's to drink and a shower is a must or my girl won't let me sleep in the bed.....
K.Brazier
09-24-2005, 04:05 AM
Hi Matt,
xu level tone (-)
shi (v).
Please do not mix gou with zhan or nian.
It is not sticking. That is another thing.
I will send a clip to you of this. You can post it for all if you have the technology
(I do not).
For some techniques the grab of gou is essential.
So if you use empty grab and the technique works ok then it is likely ok.
There is also the Yang gou.
It is an upside down gou to the tricep area.
Usually called yang gou di jiao
Which is "yang(of yin-yang)hook and provoking from underside."
It is important to understand which techniques require a solid grab and which don't.
As for gou lou crash, I am not sure of what that is.
Feng or seal is always a solid technique.
It is a push, usually of pushing the opponents elbow into his body.
But also a pushing pull(or pulling push) where the arm is stretched acros his centerline towards his opposite ear.
In this case the concept of feng bi, sealing and closing, are fully realized.
This is important to undersatnd as it is part of the 12 keywords of our Mantis.
In 7*'s 12 keywords there is no feng bi(and meihua has no gou lou tsai in their 12 keywords).
Glad to see you made the diao shou connection.
For me this has been confused with other types of grabs and I had many talks with other mantis athourity to compare our viewpoints.
It is nice to see different ideas.
I think that my view of diao will be different from yours.
As for gou lou crash, I am not sure of what that is.
that's just me :D
usually just a shoulder bump...although most people feel it as a bit more than a bump. or I reap and follow to the ground...or grab the head in my armpit and pivot.
I need to read the rest of your post more after I've had coffee...
Ou Ji
09-24-2005, 07:11 AM
So based on these descriptions Gou Lou Cai is a one handed technique? It always seems to be associated with a 3 handed sequence from what I've seen.
I have seen one handed plucking exercises.
If Gou can be empty or solid (xu and shi) then wouldn't Hook Grasp Pluck be Gou Shi Cai? Where Gou Shi would be a Hook which goes into a solid Grab. Where does the Lou come in?
So Gou Lou Cai is Hook Grasp Pluck and Gou Lou Feng is Hook Grasp Seal. That matches something I'm a little more familiar with.
Sorry for being so simple minded, I don't have a big background with this stuff.
Oso
Please pst the clip when you get it. It would help me tremendously. TIA.
Ou Ji, i think GLC can be one or two handed. Our first mantis exercise is called Xioa Si Shou and the first move is a one handed intercept, grab and pull with the left hand as you step in with the right foot and hit them in the head w/ an outer hanging punch.
i don't have immediate ability to post the clips he sent...i'm having problems with my web person. i'll try and get them up if i can.
"Gou is diao(tricky), it is false and towards the outside..."
He defines diao shou,"...hook firmly the attacking hand..."
So you will see that there is a small difference between all the different schools of Mantis on the definition of these types of grabs.Advanced/preferred method in WHF/Brendan Lai line for the diao in the ou-lou-choi specific sequence is the empty one.
Ou-lou-choi is a specific sequence, as well as a class of techniques, as well as a theory of application. People should not be trapped by literal translation.
N.
While there are definitely specific techniques associated with all the keywords, I've always thought that they were also conceptial in nature as well, as you say.
could you not essentially GLC with your leg/foot against another leg attack?
Ou Ji
09-24-2005, 11:10 AM
If you can grasp with your feet then why not. I think they do that in Boiled Monkey Fist but I'm not sure.
I understand that it's more concept with the specific app just an example. It's just that the same example always seems to be shown so it's hard to seperate them.
-N-
Are you using the Choi as an alternate spelling for Cai/Tsai? Or is it Choi as in Choy or Punch.
My Boiled Monkey Fist Style is unbeatable!!!!!
In all seriousness, and at the chance of sounding egotistical, my 'sticky legs' is pretty good and i will utilize the 7* hooking step foot thingie and keep an opponents leg trapped pretty well. but, i've been doing that far longer than I've ever heard of gou lou cai.
fwiw, a lot of judo/jujitsu foot sweeping is intercepting/hooking/plucking.
mantis108
09-24-2005, 11:32 AM
I concurred with Kevin. Great explanations, man! *2 thumbs way up* Gou Lou Cai can and should be applied with footwork (ie Tsun bu, Ti bu, Die bu, etc..). So the liberal or conceptual application of Gou Lou Cai with the leg or while standing up is really a mute point IMHO. Now if you were to apply that on the ground, then it definitely will need some investigating. But it can be done IME.
Regarding the 12 characters, the 7 star version is based off the Lao Wu Shou (5 old hands) of Tanglang and is more literal IMHO. The Taiji/Meihwa version is more subtle. The Lao Wu Shou goes under Feng Bi (sealing and closing) and can be expressed as a drill - Feng Shou.
Just some thoughts to share.
Warm regards
Mantis108
seung ga faat
09-25-2005, 07:04 AM
Hello Oso,
These are the prime movements, ideas gleened from the observation/interpretation of the praying mantis-ape.
They can be applied to handwork, bodywork, legwork and footwork
as well as intent .
________
hashish (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)
________
Lovely Wendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)
good point...hmmm, i think mental hooking would be what my old hung gar teacher would call 'drawing': pulling your opponent in against their will almost...setting them up through a suble use of movement, facial expression and 'intent'.
our basic drill is right hand on wrist, left hand on elbow, leave left hand on elbow (feng) and strike w/ right hand.
Ou Ji
09-25-2005, 02:38 PM
So your left hand is pinning or sealing before you strike with the right? That's how I've generally seen it done.
So we started with Gou Lou Cai and migrated to Gou Lou Choy (or in Oso's case Gou Lou Crash). I'm still interested in the Cai or Plucking part of the sequence.
How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?
Oh, and Oso, any chance you can send me the clip that was sent to you?
So your left hand is pinning or sealing before you strike with the right? That's how I've generally seen it done.
in the basic drill, yes. or right hand sealing, left hand hitting if you're on the other side.
So we started with Gou Lou Cai and migrated to Gou Lou Choy (or in Oso's case Gou Lou Crash). I'm still interested in the Cai or Plucking part of the sequence.
choy or crash happens after the cai. so, for my favorite type of entry it would actually be gou-lou-cai-crash.
imo, the pluck is an offbalance...what happens after that depends on how they react to the pluck. your next technique will depend on if you actually pull them to you or they stiffen and resist the pluck. but, i've only been doing mantis for 2 years. so, anything I say could be a big misinterpretation.
How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?
hmmm, actually, the seal would happen after the cai as well
you punch w/ right
i intercept with my right (gou)
my right hand starts to grab (lou)
my left follows to catch elbow(lou)
i jerk hard on your arm to pull you forward(cai)
everything after that is not actually GLC.
if i then feng with my left hand at your elbow and hit you with a backfist then basically it's
gou
lou
cai
feng
bong
????
in our Little Four Hands, we do an intercept with the left hand against a left punch...
intercepting
grabbing
plucking...
all with the left hand as we flank step outside of the attacking arm with the left foot
and step in with the right foot and whack them in the head with the right fist.
the GLC in that move is very short, quick and one handed....everything else is just the follow up to the GLC having been effective in pulling them forward some.
Oh, and Oso, any chance you can send me the clip that was sent to you?
sure, send me an email and I'll bounce it to you. it's a .mov
mantisben
09-26-2005, 01:03 AM
How is it performed with Cai? Especially considering Lou is pushing or sealing how does the plucking come about?
I believe Cai/Pluck is kind of like Yank/Jerk (A sharp quick pull). You can grab/lou an opponents hair and Cai/Yank their head into a fist, an object (wall/fence), or you can hook/Ou the back of your opponents neck and pull it into an elbow or a knee strike, like they do in Muay Tai.
mantis108
09-26-2005, 11:18 AM
Head grabbing move in the old Quanpus are usually referred to as Zhua Fa (snatching hair) or La Fa (pulling hair). This is to restrict/immobilizing the head movement or going in for the miming. It is more a pluck or Cai as you would have to grab solid and yank or pull to disturb his balance as well.
In MMA terms, a single neck tie (with or without the single under hook) or a double neck tie (plum?) a la Muay Thai, could be considered as Lou. But there is no actual term used for that. A single under hook to the shoulder could be consider as a Lou but you will not see this in any of the Quanpu or even in most Tanglang quan. However, theorectically speaking from a mantis perspective it is a Lou IMHO.
Double under hook/body lock as in bear hug is also Lou. It is double Lou or Shuang Lou to be precise. This is found as the opponent comes from behind and uses a rear bear hug on "me" in the Quanpu of Cui Shou Shan (student of Song Zide). The counter to the move is called "Duo Zhi Jiao" which I believe is the same as CCK TCMP's Sau Fa move Jin Long Pan Chu (golden dragon coils around the pillar). BTW, this counter is common to most styles' self defense move. The fancy name is cool though. ;)
BTW, I have just receive 2 clips form Kevin. I will check with him if it's okay to post them on my site as well.
Mantis108
cool comparisons.
the standard 'collar and elbow' tie up easily translates to mantis, imo.
as you hook into the neck, slam into it with the inside of the forearm/palm heel area of the hand and then hook and pull and pop back with some really short waist jing to daze them real good like ;)
mantisben
09-27-2005, 07:32 AM
...to grab solid and yank or pull to disturb his balance...
To me, this is precisely how "Cai" or "Pluck" is used. I didn't word it like you did in the quote above, but this is practically letter-for-letter how I'd define it, personally.
Whether you "grab solid and yank" the hair, neck, fist-full-of-skin (Pinch (thanks Oso)), arm, elbow, leg, or clothing. Whether you "grab solid and yank" downwards, or to the side, the "Yank", in my definition, is "Cai".
Not a showstopper, but very effective when applied at the right time.
funny story from last night
we were working the armbar from the second road of bung bu (stepping back into the horse, pulling down on the wrist w/ rear hand and up at elbow w/ fore arm.)
we were doing it as a live drill w/ full both sides attempting to get the pull and bar with 100% resistance.
did that for a while, round robin like, then it kinda devolved into just general chin na anything goes and a student of mine tried the pinch on me...ineffectively...so, I had to show how it should be done :)
To me, this is precisely how "Cai" or "Pluck" is used. I didn't word it like you did in the quote above, but this is practically letter-for-letter how I'd define it, personally.For us, cai is not when you initially hook. It is when you "take" your opponent with the strike in combination with ou and lou.
N.
-N-
so, you guys pluck and strike at the same time? pulling w/ one hand while striking with the other?
MightyB
09-27-2005, 01:00 PM
For us, cai is not when you initially hook. It is when you "take" your opponent with the strike in combination with ou and lou.
N.
I've always assumed that ou lou choi is the same as choi sum sau in that you du sau + foom sau + then strike all in one motion.
I've always assumed that ou lou choi is the same as choi sum sau in that you du sau + foom sau + then strike all in one motion.Yes, same for us, MightyB. All one count. Common for 3 counts among non WHF though. So I use the phrase "initially hook" when trying to explain to non WHF.
N.
-N-
so, you guys pluck and strike at the same time? pulling w/ one hand while striking with the other?Oso, WHF/BL line uses small motion and empty diou when doing ou lou tsai. All one count like a 3 round burst from an automatic weapon firing. If you see a WHF/BL student doing otherwise, he is considered to be doing "incorrectly". Easy to describe, but students can have a hard time with it. It's one of our "secrets".
"pulling w/ one hand while striking with the other" is different from ou lou tsai. That would be fung tung choy. We describe that as "split(ting) force".
N.
-N-
ok, so, would you say that your 'ou lou tsai' has melded into one thing and isn't considered to be 3 separate 'keywords' anymore?
do you break out 'ou', 'lou' and 'tsai' individually?
Ou Ji
09-27-2005, 03:27 PM
Man I love it when the info starts flowing even though I don't follow all the names of the moves. Pictures please! I'm heading into unknown territory.
Here's why I'm asking for details on the plucking. This is something that occured to me yet I've never seen anyone refer to this action when describing Gou Lou Cai or plucking.
Have partner hold out his arm, grab his wrist, place other hand on inside of elbow, while keeping his wrist where it is jerk down on the elbow joint causing his shoulder/upper body to jerk forward. That's when you strike.
See how the timing would have to be perfect and how much practice would be involved to execute this for real?
In the above description Lou is neither pushing nor pulling actually and definitely not sealing. And you are not simply pulling or jerking the arm towards with with both hands. Kind of hard to describe but I'm sure you get the idea.
Does this come in to play in anyone's Gou Lou Cai? Or is everyone just grabbing with 2 hands and yanking?
Just curious.
-N-
ok, so, would you say that your 'ou lou tsai' has melded into one thing and isn't considered to be 3 separate 'keywords' anymore?3 separate keywords, but with a special grouping of the 3 together as well. Truthfully, we don't dwell on keywords so much as is seen on the various forums. I guess if you really have to put it into words, WHF line has subgroupings for the various keywords.
N.
Three Harmonies
09-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Keep in mind all, that key words are rarely (if ever) applied and talked about individualy. For instance our keyword for provoking, Jiao, while I can talk about it in many different aspects, and pontificate upon the theory of Jiao unto itself.....when applying it their are several other keywords that have to be used in conjunction. For instance in order to provoke I have to close the distance (lai = approach). Usually contact is made (zhan). And most of the time some sticky-ness is involved (nian).
So yes we can talk about the different key words in theory and what not, but if we are discussing actual usage.....well that opens a whole new can of worms to deal with.
Cheers
Jake :D
Ou Ji
09-27-2005, 05:57 PM
Please do not mix gou with zhan or nian.
It is not sticking. That is another thing.
I will send a clip to you of this. You can post it for all if you have the technology
(I do not).
Kevin's clip here (http://media.putfile.com/Kevin-Sean) .
Thanks Matt. And thanks Kevin for sharing. I get lost in the words and descriptions. I don't know all the sets and drills you guys know so photos and video help a lot.
right, gou lou cai is the only triple combo right? all the others are generally associated by two's...correct? Master Shi doesn't rely on keywords either (per Kevin) this interest is purely my own...I like categories and such.
ok, just a thought here so don't anyone jump down my throat about traditional outlook on things, just musing here.
12 keywords.
just in doubling on an x and y axis you get 144 combinations of key words
12^3 is 1728 3 word combinations.
do any of you look at recombinations of the keywords?
or am i stating the obvious here?
Have partner hold out his arm, grab his wrist, place other hand on inside of elbow, while keeping his wrist where it is jerk down on the elbow joint causing his shoulder/upper body to jerk forward. That's when you strike.
See how the timing would have to be perfect and how much practice would be involved to execute this for real?
In the above description Lou is neither pushing nor pulling actually and definitely not sealing. And you are not simply pulling or jerking the arm towards with with both hands. Kind of hard to describe but I'm sure you get the idea.This almost describes ou lou tsai of WHF/BL line. Details are that the dieu does not grab, the lou is on forearm rather than elbow, and it is all executed in one count.
There are details in how and when to engage or bridge. Yes, the timing has to be perfect, and it takes a lot of practice. That's where the kung fu comes in. A lot of students can't do it this way even after years of practice.
If you are going to talk keywords, you can put ou-lou-tsai together with dieu-jeun when executing this. Though my teacher always said, "less talk, more practice".
N.
right, gou lou cai is the only triple combo right? all the others are generally associated by two's...correct?Off the top of my head, I'd say yes.
12 keywords.
just in doubling on an x and y axis you get 144 combinations of key words
12^3 is 1728 3 word combinations.
do any of you look at recombinations of the keywords?Hehehe... can get messy quick. Rather than generate combinations based on all possible permutations of keywords, it's more like when you start putting together effective mantis combinations, you can find elements of all different keyword ideas present.
N.
If you are going to talk keywords, you can put ou-lou-tsai together with dieu-jeun when executing this. Though my teacher always said, "less talk, more practice".
N.
LOL, indeed Sir...but since this venue is ALL talk...direct transmission only works when your sifu is smacking the crap out of you...or when we're smacking the crap out of each other...since we're just sitting in chairs thousands of miles away from each other....
Hahaha.. so is that called "smack talk"? :)
Ok, how about the scene in Tai Chi 2, where the dad and the challenger settle a challenge match with verbal sparring. What a crackup. Of course it turns into a real match.
Btw, there's a nice flash of a mantis shin kick in that movie, if I remember right.
N.
Off the top of my head, I'd say yes.
Hehehe... can get messy quick. Rather than generate combinations based on all possible permutations of keywords, it's more like when you start putting together effective mantis combinations, you can find elements of all different keyword ideas present.
N.
again, just musings.
certainly even at the 144 level, all combos wouldn't necessarily be effective and at the next level, even more so.
my background up to this point has been very much aimed at breaking down to the most root form, what I was taught, figure out the basics of it, then look at combinations NOT found in the linear form representd by a set.
tradtional CMA frowns on this...
ok, all for me, time for bed....good thread, even if I did start it myself :D
Oso, I heard these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem) will reveal all the secrets of Praying Mantis if you give them a Chinese dictionary :) That's how Wong Long got his footwork :)
N.
BeiTangLang
09-28-2005, 05:02 AM
I think you have to give him a peach or something first,.... :eek:
Ou Ji
09-28-2005, 08:00 AM
This almost describes ou lou tsai of WHF/BL line. Details are that the dieu does not grab, the lou is on forearm rather than elbow, and it is all executed in one count.
The description was not meant to be exactly the same as executation. It was an example to illustrate the action. The inside elbow is the optimal point but the forearm close to elbow would work and is probably easier to get ahold of under pressure.
My point is the jerking action as opposed to the yanking action. I've always seen the Gou and Lou peformed somewhat separate with the Lou more of a pressing action or a slap block. Maybe I need to find some WHF guys to play with or need to see a real master in action.
Wow, Infinite Monkey Style. When you fight you just randomly execute all the moves you know and eventually something will end the fight. :eek:
Wow, Infinite Monkey Style. When you fight you just randomly execute all the moves you know and eventually something will end the fight. :eek:Hehehe... you invented a new style. I like it! Cool name too :)
N.
ok, so...what is everyone's opinion of the formation of the 12 key words into their recognized groupings?
It seems that if the 12 keywords weren't meant to be analyzed separately, then they wouldn't have come to be called '12 keywords' but, what, like '6 key words'
'gou lou cai' is grouped as one thing
'gua' is usually looked at alone, right?
all the others are generally paired in every iteration i've read....which isn't many.
mantisben
09-29-2005, 09:15 AM
It seems that if the 12 keywords weren't meant to be analyzed separately, then they wouldn't have come to be called '12 keywords' but, what, like '6 key words'
Man, I totally agree!
K.Brazier
09-29-2005, 03:11 PM
Oso,
Remember that 12 keywords for 7* and Meihua have some radical differences.
So you have to put yourself in a bit of a different frame of mind when looking at them.
In Meihua for the form Luanjie you see the words coming up individually coupled with the offensive move.
of ti na feng bi-raising, grasping, sealing, closing grouping.
Lifting is followed by cleaving, by shoulder rib strike etc
sealing followed by backfist -feng beng.
closing followed by palm strike to heart.
also, in this form are other keywords such as
Tiao(also means lifting) bao- lift and hug-followed by right coiling elbow
Gou-as in left hooking right straight punch.
as well as other terms.
Furthermore, to make matters more confuing, there is a more complete listing of keywords in outline of short strikes. It contains 24 keywords and there definitions.
Through other sources I have found this in Ching dynasty manuscript for weapons usage.
So it, like 8 Hard and 12 soft first appear as principles for weapons.
oh, i'm not taking anything for granted...the intent of the thread was to start some discussion of the differences...with you and Robert being the most vocal contributors I'm glad you're posting. Would love to see Shifu Profatilov or Shifu Tunks post.....
I don't know the differences...I know there are differences between 7* and Plum Flower...I can feel that easily simply by playing our Bung Bu and that first road of Ba Kui...defining those differences is what I'm after.
libingshao
10-05-2005, 08:37 PM
ok, so...what is everyone's opinion of the formation of the 12 key words into their recognized groupings?
It seems that if the 12 keywords weren't meant to be analyzed separately, then they wouldn't have come to be called '12 keywords' but, what, like '6 key words'
'gou lou cai' is grouped as one thing
'gua' is usually looked at alone, right?
all the others are generally paired in every iteration i've read....which isn't many.
Oso,
In my limited experience the twelve are both singular and paired. gou lou cai are three ideas but I have heard the three called cai shou for short and then again I have seen them expressed by the same person separately. They are after all ideas and not simply single techniques. Once you leave the single technique idea behind, it seems limited only by the training and insight of the practitioner.
Libingshao
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