CLF Noi Lim Sau [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Fu-Pow

09-25-2005, 10:43 AM

I think Ou Ji brought this up in another thread but I'm curious too.

What is CLF Noi Lim Sau? I've also seen the terms Loi Lim Sau, Nei Lim Sau and Oi Lim Sau?

What do these mean? Could someone translate and also give the Mandarin translation?

The first term is pretty easy to translate Noi/Oi is inside/outside. Which I assume s Nei/Wai in Mandarin.

As a student of Chen Taiji I'm pretty familiar with so called "internal" martial arts and I'm curious as to why Chan Family guards this as some super secret aspect of CLF?

Basically, my understanding is that "inside" martial arts have different body mechanic requirements.

In Taiji the body mechanic requirements are as follows:

1) Fang Song (relaxed)
2) Peng Jin (inflated)
3) Chan Si Jin (spiral motion)
4) Synchronicity (one part moves, all parts move)

I can see that in an art like CLF that the "internal" body mechnanic fits WITHIN the external body mechanic, almost like a way to "power" it. However the internal body mechanic can be used on its own without ever resorting to external. Its use requires that you be much closer to your opponent than you would using the external aspect. This change in strategy is reflected in using a different "aspect" of the movement ie the one that fits inside.

To use an analogy....imagine that you are holding a rope that has a heavy weight attached to it. When you are doing internal it is like spinning the weight around the middle of the rope where you are holding it. All parts move at different speeds but in a synchronous manner. As the weight comes around on its circular path, you send it out on a tangential path. Now the weight is moving and the middle of the rope stays still. This is "external." All parts are not moving together. The tension in the rope has collapsed and you must use extra energy to pull the weight back into its orbit around your hand.

Ou Ji

09-25-2005, 11:13 AM

Fu-Pow

09-25-2005, 01:16 PM

I suspect that the 'internal' is more along the lines of 'closed door' or discipleship. Certain chosen students get the real deal while the rest get superficial stuff.

lkfdmc referenced this in his thread on his teacher CTS.

No I don't think that's it. Although, apparently you aren't shown the "Taiji-like" aspect unless you are "inner door" disciple. This is reflected in the Taai Gik/Taiji and Mo Gik/Wuji CLF forms that the Chan Family teaches. Apparently these have a martial component. I have a video of Chen Yong Fa teaching jointlocking in a seminar. That applications are almost identical to some things that I've learned in Chen Taiji. Apparently, these higher level forms are very similar to other internal arts, most notably Taiji.

BTW, apparently if you don't know this you're an outside student. Did I guess correcty?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Ou Ji

09-25-2005, 02:08 PM

Not directed at you Fu-Pow, just throwing it out there.

The way it was discussed gave me the impression it was somewhat secret. Like only an insider would know what they're talking about. As you can see nobody has come forward with any type of explanation.

But you may be correct. Or it could be a combination of the two. Either way I'm still interested in hearing about it. I never have nor will ever be an 'inside' or 'indoor' student so I have to rely on others to learn these things.

extrajoseph

09-25-2005, 03:04 PM

Noi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5185&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=7C3E&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=624B&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

Ngoi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5916&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=7C3E&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=624B&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=radical,index,mandarin,english

Ou Ji

09-25-2005, 03:15 PM

Cool, thanks. Inside/Outside Curtain Hand. And it isn't found in Hung Sing sets. Is it a type of marker indicating the source of a set?

Guess I'll have to go back to the original video that spawned the first occurance of this term and see if I can pick it out.

Here's the video (http://www.rthk.org.hk/special/invi...artialart06.asx)

extrajoseph

09-25-2005, 11:52 PM

Noi Lim Sau is a policy/contents/teaching mechanism passed down by Chan Heung to prevent the dishonest and the disloyal from learning the finer details.

It is built-in to make sure the art will survive. There is more to CLF than you can see on videos or read in books!

Frank, you can't even get the names of the technical terms right, yet every one of these terms are written down and explained clearly and passed down to us in black and white writing.

Check out the choyleefut.com.cn and you can see some of the terms written in the kuen po. Now, if Jeong Yim had co-founded or co-created CLF, he should have all this information and passed down to you or your sifu/sigung. Where is it?

You have no idea how high is the sky and how deep is the ocean....

Kennyfist

09-26-2005, 12:24 AM

Hsk should realise his highly coveted blah blah elephant can probably be confined to a cage...... :D
If I'm not mistaken:
I've asked him about noi nim sou in his lineage before......he says he doesn't know then he says chan and jeong developed separately clf so have things unique to separate "branch".....but how can you co-found someone else's style by learning it and set up a "branch"............

......then he says something like "we've got all those things you say we haven't got".....then he says something like " I realise we have 'that technique' in applications, but not in forms....."

He has been asked whether it is "a technique" or how you move.....now lets see whether he'll come up with something......or whether he'll quote you somehow......

...or whether he'll keep silent.....which says something if not a lot.......

Ou Ji

09-26-2005, 03:54 PM

extrajoseph
Thanks for the explanation. Didn't mean to derail a possible setup of HSK but some here are more interested in information than ranting and raving.

I'm not hardcore CLF but do plan on expanding a bit on the little I know right now.

Sow Choy

09-26-2005, 04:21 PM

Oi Leem & Loi Leem,

With our school, the technique is very difficult, because of its feel and reaction to the opponent... Our Buddha Palm form has it in there, but partner training is the best to develop it... It seems to have an internalness to it, but afterall, the terms we use confuse us a bit I believe...

It may have been a way to control the bridge since it is very sticky like... In the sense as to stick but not grab and commit to a lock.. but to control and draw the opponent in for a strike, etc...

Also, my sifu uses this term to describe someones kung fu also... When watching someone he will say the person is stiff or very good, and use this to describe the persons movement... When a CLF player is showing a form they should be using pwer from the inside, even the arms and hands will begin twisting into their techniques... The sow choy will gain more power inches away from the target...

Also it is intersting to watch CLF peeps recovery, how fast can they recover in their form, we should always be recovering quickly, as well as keeping the arms somewhat loose in case of a lock or grab... To be tight if someone grabs you may only aid them ...

So yes CLF should be internal to what many claim internal... But we definitely start external and slowy refine our technique to include a more internal or how I like to say
"Unitary" way of moving...

So, that is how we use these terms...

Joe

extrajoseph

09-26-2005, 07:35 PM

Hi Joe,

You seem to know a bit about Noi Lim Sau.

Like the Hung Mun secret society, we have a way of finding out whether someone really knows just by asking them to hold a normal fist (and a few other little obvious signs).

Can you tell us how you would hold a normal fist the Noi Lim Sau way? Please describe the actions step by steps (there are 5 steps) and what to look out for and the sensations you have in your body.

No, it is not a test, you either knows or you don't.

Yes, it is about unity of the body with the fist.

Care to give it a try?

EJ

Fu-Pow

09-26-2005, 08:49 PM

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 09:58 AM

Hello EJ...

Thanks for posting on this topic, as I always enjoy to hear your views...

Noi Leem Sao, as the technique...

As taught to me, the inside circle hand is a great way to redirect a punch for example... right stance to right stance, the opponent punches, without stopping or interuppting him, the arm shoots out sticking the outter forearm to his inner forearm, the hand overlaps with aid from the fingers, pulling the arm in, which is where his punch is going anyway... moving the hand to the outside so we can either strike quickly with the same hand, kick or continue to do what is necassary...

Noi Leem Sao, as internal/ uniterary...

When I show form or spar/fight, do bags, etc... People have noticed my fists are not the same as theirs.... My fists are never clenched.... I know my sifu taught me to have a somehwhat relaxed fist, similar to Tai Chi, but I hurt my wrist (minor) a few times when practicing Ngan Gong training when delivering a Pek Choy which uses the outter bone of the forearm to strike with... But it taught me alot... The impact causes my wrist to hurt...

When I train any swing strike especially I always keep the hand relaxed and actually EJ, I prefer open hand ... I notice Chen Yong Fa does that alot in the videos I have seen...

So I never learned a step by step process of holding a fist, my sifus have always been part teacher part go figure it out types...

But I do know that when CLF is performed correctly (My POV)...:) The 1st thing I look at is intention... Connection of the persons mind/will... The face can be a dead giveaway sometimes... Are they focused?? Then of course the timing of the body... Is the power coming from the stance/hips? Are they able to transfer power throughout the body without interuption??? (Tightness in the shoulders can block power from the body to hands)

Also correct alignment of the waist, shoulders, and arm especially on swing strikes... All to often an injury will occur because of bad execution of a swing punch...

I also have noticed way to many CLF people never get the Sow Choy right... They swing it with such tight shoulders or without good intention... Or even worse very sloppy... Recently a CLF master pulled the shoulder right out of the socket at a demo!!! So, it is so important to have the mechanics down before training the power/speed aspect... The sow choy should be like a whip chain, loose, fast & hit hard... The sow choy can have a twist of the arm with the weight sinking a bit more and the waist twisting a bit more... and of course you can use the breath too another aspect of generating more power...

I noticed many sensations and continue to listen to my body... One obvious sensation was the tingling in my hands from the blood rushing there when my shoulders were no longer tight and preventing me from using my body for power... I noticed my timing and recovery greatly improved as well...

To me, I still am amazed of how the CLF building blocks were designed... The stances and how they help generate and catch power we execute... The interdependancy of the 2 hands in the many circular combose we have... How so many techniques were designed to be effiecient and find as many places we can generate power without losing speed... Amazing to me... That is why I do enjoy form practice...

Using the breath is another part of this, making our sounds from the dan tien not the throat... I look for more sources of power each time I am training... So please add some, would love to have some new ideas...

So I am not sure if I answered your questions... If I am off, I definitely would love to hear a different perspective, especially one I can understand...

EJ, Please PM me if you wish to talk about this in private... I know this is something important to you...

For me I feel CLF is not mine to keep... I feel lucky to have come this far and lucky to have met and been with the people I know...

Also EJ, stick around... Let us pick your brain, I do enjoy your discussions and would love to hear more... I don't know who you are, but still I can listen...

Joe

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 10:11 AM

BTW,

GM Poon Sing has a student who I enjoy watching... his name is Chiu Man On, forgot the spelling...

Anyways, he has higher stances, but is very very fast... He must be in his 50's now and I recently saw him, awesome... Different then my style, but we are of the same family...

They call him rubberband man I hear in Hong Kong...

Frank, was he also a performer in Singapore???

Joe

Fu-Pow

09-27-2005, 10:41 AM

I like how Poon Sing moves, very loose and very fluid. I hope I can move like him when I'm that old. Apparently, when he visited our school (i missed it **** it) he was hitting the heavy bag in the back room with Chaap Chuis. From what I heard he was making the bag buckle and shake with very little tension in his hands. The students watching him couldn't comprehend how he was doing it.

Anyhow....

I have a video of Chen Yong Fa doing 2 man joint locking and "sticky hands" exercises at one of his China trip seminars. No big deal, it looks almost identical to things learned in Chen Taji but somehow it fits with the Choy Lay Fut stuff. Pretty cool, but you could pick this stuff up elsewhere like Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Liu He Ba Fa. In fact, I'm a little suspicious of this stuff because of its resemblance to Taiji. I wonder when and where this Qi Gong and Kei Lun Sticky Hands were integrated into the curriculum. Supposedly from the beginning but I have my reservations.

Chen Taiji used to have a long fist set. Apparently, it was a derivation of the Chen Family's Pao Chui (cannon fist) that predates the "internal" stuff. Eventually it was abandoned in favor of training the internal aspect of Taiji.

So it could be that Choy Lay Fut used to have an internal aspect that was forgotten, abandoned or never transmitted, in favor of the external aspect. However, I remain a bit skeptical until I have a chance to train some of it. Which may never happen.

hskwarrior

09-27-2005, 11:06 AM

joe K,

on the dvd i got GM Poon Sing was a performer. however some of the camera shots were shotty, but from square one, i have not seen any master to date who demonstrated such power in his hands. he is old, right? i would definetely say for sure, he is one master i would not want to mess with on the street. im sure he could kill even at his age.

the techniques he was using was a little hard to define, but his movement was soft and lightning fast, his arm movements were soft, but the power was in his hands only. im talking about knock out blows if he were to hit you.

unlike all us youngsters doing the hoi jong fast most of don't use the power he does. as his hands go out he has the bang right at the end of his strikes. to me, the man is great.

thanks, i'll make a copy of it for you joe k. if you want.

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 11:21 AM

Poon Sing...

I am going to Hong Kong this December to celebrate his 80th birthday... Yes the man is pretty awesome... he also walks up and down 7 flights of stairs at his apt in Hong kong, no elevator... He also talked to me alot about having chi in the hands, and how important it is to develop since power or jing changes as you age...

Also as you have noticed in his speed, while remaining powerfull...

Frank, my sifu has that video... I don't remember it much... Honestly, I enjoyed the Lacey branch, they had some good players, but honestly... I wasn't impressed...

From what I heard, the ceremonies took to long and people were upset and were peforming until 2am... :O

Even my sifu has done much better...

But I wish Lee Koon Hung was still with us...

I never have met such a great martist like him... Master Chow Keung is the closest...

But I wonder what he would have looked like in his older years...

Joe

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 11:27 AM

ExtraJoseph...

have been thinking about the unitary/ noi leem sao more since this post...

I am always trying to help my students understand the importance of the

1. Stance 2. Hips 3. Shoulders 4. Arms 5. Hands

Is this what you mean? the 5 steps to proper execution...
I always explain that improper execution and stifness is like a waterhose that is clogged with dirt and such and when the water is turned on... It cant come out full force...

anyways...

Take Care...

Joe

Fu Pow...

We have these theories in our family... they either need to be pointed out to you, or you need to really listen to your sifu more and figure it out...

Using all the Tai Chi terms and trying to figure it out in your head to me is the wrong way, you need to feel it and you will know if you are on the right track...

But I think you are on the right track... And remember... its your turn to visit me...

:)

Joe

Fu-Pow

09-27-2005, 11:59 AM

Fu Pow...

We have these theories in our family... they either need to be pointed out to you, or you need to really listen to your sifu more and figure it out...

Using all the Tai Chi terms and trying to figure it out in your head to me is the wrong way, you need to feel it and you will know if you are on the right track...

But I think you are on the right track... And remember... its your turn to visit me...

:)

Joe

I hear where you are coming from. However, I feel that the Taiji way of explaining things is more precise. Choy Lay Fut we try to talk about these things but it seems we don't (or maybe I don't) have the adequate vocabulary to discuss it. If these terms exists in our family, as you say then, I have never been exposed to it. My Sifu is very practical and doesn't really like to get into theoretical discussions about chi and energy, etc. Mostly if you ask something kind of theoretical the most you get is a grunt. But as you say, it is a "feeling", a sensation, and when you have it right you just "know." That much I understand.

Hope we can visit again soon.

Ciao

Infrazael

09-27-2005, 12:01 PM

I hear where you are coming from. However, I feel that the Taiji way of explaining things is more precise. Choy Lay Fut we try to talk about these things but it seems we don't (or maybe I don't) have the adequate vocabulary to discuss it. If these terms exists in our family, as you say then, I have never been exposed to it. My Sifu is very practical and doesn't really like to get into theoretical discussions about chi and energy, etc. Mostly if you ask something kind of theoretical the most you get is a grunt. But as you say, it is a "feeling", a sensation, and when you have it right you just "know." That much I understand.

Hope we can visit again soon.

Ciao

You're very right; Sifu is extremely practical. Do you think his English might also play a role?

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 12:15 PM

Mak Fai is a fighter...

Always has been and always will be...

LKH was very much the same as he didn't like to talk in great lengths about things not related to the main point of fighting... Unless... you showed some talent or showed that you might get it...

He would always talk about power and push us... But to have a long talk about power was not his way of teaching, his way was to follow him and develop, he would of course correct our moves and give us advice... More of a teacher after results...

So when asking a painter to teach you how to paint the way he does... Could confuse the painter...

Like the funny story of the millipede who when asked how does he walk with so many legs, tripped when thinking of it.. Something like that...

Joe

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 12:37 PM

ExtraJoseph...

have been thinking about the unitary/ noi leem sao more since this post...

I am always trying to help my students understand the importance of the

1. Stance 2. Hips 3. Shoulders 4. Arms 5. Hands

Is this what you mean? the 5 steps to proper execution...
I always explain that improper execution and stifness is like a waterhose that is clogged with dirt and such and when the water is turned on... It cant come out full force...

anyways...

Take Care...

Joe

Hi Joe,

No, this is not what I mean, all I want you to do is to tell me how to hold a fist properly, so the whole body is aligned and awakened just by this one action, but nevermind...

Peace.

EJ

hskwarrior

09-27-2005, 12:41 PM

why so secretive joseph? why can't you just explain what you are talking about because what you may know as one thing we may know as something totally different.

why did chan heung teach that ngoi nim sou are whatever only to trusted chan family members? how come jeong yim the one you said was the shining star didn't get it?

sounds kind of secretive to me :cool:

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 01:33 PM

Hi Frank,

Jeong Yim definitely has the Noi Lim Sau, unfortunately, some of it is lost somewhere along the line. I am not being secretive, just being cautious. What I did was a standard procedure similar to the Hung Mun tradition, nothing special.

You take care,

EJ

CLFNole

09-27-2005, 01:55 PM

With our lineage Joe (Sow Choy) and myself in particular, if we had what your were looking for I think we wouldn't realize it. Remember our sifu, Lee Koon Hung passed away in our early years of training so much of his knowledge was unable to be conveyed to us. Who knows maybe because we are gwai lo's :D he wouldn't have shown us anyway (just kidding).

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 02:10 PM

Lee Koon Hung,

Lee Koon Hung & Li Siu Hung were not the kind of teachers who hide behind secrets and history... They knew it was not easy to find good students and that many will not stay long enough for their kung fu to develop...

Too many people think they have something so secret and special...

The real secret is to be consistent in every aspect of your training... And watch your results... know what I mean CLFNole???

Joe

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 02:11 PM

Hi CLFNole,

Yeah, it is a pity that your sifu died young, he could have put some records straight. But it is all out there and one day, may be someone will put them down in English and we all be wiser.

Just keep spreading the art and it will happen. I am sure!

Take care,

EJ

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 02:15 PM

Joseph,

Care to ellaborate on this fist? Is it the Ginger fist?

Please explain...

Joe

Shaolindynasty

09-27-2005, 02:23 PM

Sow Choy,

"I am going to Hong Kong this December to celebrate his 80th birthday"

What was the date on that? I am supposed to be going with my Sifu at the end of December and early January to some banquets and celebrations (he mentioned that one). I won't be sure if we are going till the end of october though. If we go I'll see you there.

Sow Choy

09-27-2005, 02:26 PM

ShaolinDynasty,

Hope you go, I heard your sifu may be going... That would be nice if you were there too... I will hook up with Phillip definitely if he is there...

Joe

Fu-Pow

09-27-2005, 02:29 PM

To answer your question Joseph.

Curl the fingers in starting with the pinky to the index finger. Thumb touches the second knuckle of the middle finger. A crease should form starting from the inside edge of the palm up to the space between the first and middle finger. when you strike with this fist you hit with the first two knuckles. You do not straighten the top of the hand to line up with the forearm. Rather, the wrist is kept relaxed. This is an "internal style" fist as I know it from Chen Taiji.

Now I have to kill you.

Shaolindynasty

09-27-2005, 02:33 PM

If my Sifu goes I will definatly be there, it depends on him right now.

If Phil isn't busy with work we should hang with him to.

Man, last time me and some of my CLF brothers were there Phil hooked us up. We went to a club with him and some of his "movie friends". Good times were had by all.

We should definately hit up Lan Kwai Fong(sp?)

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 03:47 PM

Fu-Pow

09-27-2005, 04:28 PM

Hi Fu Pow,

You will not see what is inside the CLF curtain if look from the house of Taiji across the road.

What makes us different to other styles is that the first thing we learn is a "charp" and not a "chui" (a normal fist), so a normal fist will always start with a "charp" and the rest like "cup" and "ginger" will also start with a "charp", which is our No. 1 seed and we live and died by a "charp".

There are special characteristics about a "charp" and they should be maintained in a normal fist, so it is really a "charp" done with a solid steel ball or some people would say a solid piece of rock.

How to hold a fist and make it so solid and densely packed that the arm feel like a piece of rope by comparison is the next step and how to make the arm behave like a piece of rope, a cane or a steel bar at the same time with the help of the fist is the step after and so forth.

But for that you have to come behind the curtain and I have not got the right to invite you, so this is as far as I can take you before I get into trouble.

Now I have to kill myself. :D

EJ

Haha...I don't look try to look inside the CLF curtain from the outside. In fact, what I described is looking at kung fu from behind the CLF player who is behind the curtain...haha...look behind you.

You see, kung fu doesn't begin and end with CLF, although obviously I think it is a great fighting art or I wouldn't train it. However, in some respects the internal arts are way beyond what CLF has to offer, at least at the infighting range. Thats why I'm so curious to see if there are really are these "higher" levels to CLF or if its just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I think the only true test would be to see Chen Yong Fa play some sticky hands with a highly skilled Taiji master. Then we'd know what side of the curtain we're all standing on. No disrespect intended to Master Chan.

Ciao for now.

Ou Ji

09-27-2005, 05:24 PM

Sorry extrajoseph but I really hate that crap. Not everyone has a good MA teacher within reach, especially in the style you may want to learn. On top of that not everyone gets invited 'behind the curtain' no matter how bad you want it or how much you're willing to work for it.

I'm happy for you that MA training has worked out for you but why not help out some of the more unfortunate ones and spread information instead of playing the secret game.

I don't care much for the chosen few mentality. If peeps want to learn there should be opportunities for them to learn.

Sorry for the rant but I've been around this inside/outside stuff before and I don't like it. Of course this comes from someone who's always been on the outside so maybe I got special bug about it.

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 05:30 PM

Hi Fu-Pow,

Who said Kung Fu begin and ends with CLF? I didn't!

What has Chen Yong Fa got to do with all this? Do you know him? No one sole person can represent the depth of a knowledge of an art form and knowledge can only be accumulated through time.

Whether Chen Yong Fa can do some tricky push hands with Chen Xiao Wang or some other high level player or such is not the point. It is not going to decide whether CLF is better than Chen Taijiquan or vice versa, or whether internal is better than external and all that cr-p we carry on with everyday.

The real test is what can you learn from all this? Will it improve your art? Will it make you think? Will it make you look at things in a different way? Will it make you wiser? If not, just walk on by and forget what I have told you....

If you can see the guy behind the guy behind the curtain then you don't need any Noi Lim Sau, you have got it already! Does it make you feel any better?

We all know what we know and we don't need another to tell us what we know or don't know. I am only answering your questions since you have asked!

Peace.

EJ

extrajoseph

09-27-2005, 05:33 PM

Hi Ou Ji,

If you don't like this inside and outside stuff (or crap), then I will not talk about it any more. OK?

Cheers,

EJ

CLFNole

09-27-2005, 05:51 PM

One thing about our lineage (Lee Koon Hung) is that we don't have any fist punches (chung choy or jik choy) in any of our sets. Its always some type of chop choy - yum chop, yeung choy or cheung ahn choy. The fist position is used in biu jong, bien (dat) choy, sow choy, paw choy and pek/chin si choy. Its funny we don't have any straight punches.

I guess the whole fist thing is kind of like the "secret" hand shake we had back in my college fraternity days. :D **** I miss the old days.

JAZA

09-27-2005, 05:54 PM

I was taught zhong chon in lau kung in a chi kung class, but I think you can't do this with a charp.

just trying to keep this good thread going :)

Kennyfist

09-29-2005, 03:23 AM

Maybe I should try to take a more "positive" turn to forum....

It makes sense to work from the obvious to the subtle, from the external to the internal, from the outside to the inside, from the "abrupt" to the "sticky", from the "large" to the "small", from the more "sectional" power to the more "whole or zheng ti" power, from the yang to the yin and so on .....you get the picture I guess......

Since Joseph started out with the "charp"....lets sort of take it from there......

"charp" is a "simple word" and it is not whether it is a cup or a charp or whether it is a "normal" fist or a "ginger" fist or whatever fist that determines which side of the curtain you place it on...... it is the details and refinement----the subtleties that make the difference. ie you can do a "charp" on one side of the curtain, and you can also do a "charp" on the other side of the curtain.......both are still "charp"..........

Just like two similar stories that are well known....say cinderella....you can tell the same story and it will still be called "cinderella" but you can put a "twist" to the plot to make it "different" and achieve "an effect"......... so you can do something underneath the obvious or outside to make it "different" without changing the name "charp"....... and just like you can step on the pedal "full on" to power the engine....or you can "regulate the gas" (yes, sort of a "hint") to power the engine.......it no longer becomes a comparison of "absolute power" per se.... but as Joseph puts it nicely.....: " winning with minimal effort" ie maximal "efficiency" eg you won't swing an iron ball with an iron chain to "kill a fly"----that would be silly......

BTW it makes sense for a beginner to first learn to pick up "a rock" to hit or use so he/she doesn't injure "the hand"....... and with such a "weighted" "weapon" it makes sense the next step would be to swing it on some "ropes" to achieve max. distance.........but it does not get "behind the curtains" yet until you turn the limb into (as Joseph nicely compares) an inflatable "hose" connected fully to the dantian "pump" and the "weight" which was once "dead or brute" now becomes "alive" and "regulatable" like an inflatable "medicine ball"........

Once that is achieved, it would make sense that you, at your choice, can decide whether you "swing the ropes" or "ram the solid tank", whether limb behaves like a "whip" or a "hammer" or "steel" bar is your choice and how you pump and use your chi----the chi being the medium which inflates....and at your choice at the right time and the right place and the right direction.....you can explode the qi and a relatively flexible and "soft" rope or hose can suddenly become "solid like iron" .....like GUM GONG.....

This is getting boring and I feel like I'm "talking to myself"........

Take care people (including Joseph :D ) :)

Lama Pai Sifu

09-29-2005, 05:05 AM

Hey, it's not "Charp" guys, it's "Chaahp". There is no "r" in the technique. And it means to 'stab'. Stabbing, is the action or the energy that is used when performing the technique. Some of you know this already, but it seems like a few of you might benefit from this info.

Oh, and by the way, ...all this behind the curtain crap, is just that. Crap.

There are just two type of students; Regular students, and "Yat Sup Di Jih." If you're sifu wasn't an "In-door disciple" of his teacher, and his teacher wasn't either, than the odds are that you might not have learned a lot of stuff. Probably doesn't mean you were taught 'wrong', but an attention to certain details, and the privalegde of learning certain forms probably wasn't there.

Problem is, there are lot's of people who are teaching who are not "in the door" diciples of their teacher. This creates a multi-tiered effect when it comes to KF training. But, no one ever acknowledges when they are not learning from someone who is 'up there on the food chain'. Most times they just don't know it. Or they might be decieved by their teacher. Or their teacher's teacher just wasn't that good.

I watched a tape last night of the 1997 Eagle Claw Master's demo from Lily Lau's Tourney. A few CLF guys on it. Some were very good. A few of them, I don't remember thier names, were downright aweful. No question about it.

Also, it's easy for me to see the differences in all the different 'lines' of CLF in this country. And not to cause a great big controversy, but there are people who got the right stuff, and those who definately didn't.

Now, I'm not talking out of my a$$ here. I can fully support what I mean and I will agree to post any technique in debate up on this site. But after watching all the different line's demonstrate at this event and others which I have seen, LKH's line, the Lacey's, DFW, CYF, etc., I can share some things that I believe, - the key is WHAT I BELEIVE and have been taught, is not being exucuted correctly.

Many students practice just form play alone and it's obvious, just like the game -telephone - some techniques have been lost in the translation. If anyone wished to hear a completely different line's way of looking at some of these techniques, say the word and I will "Put Up" as upposed to "Shut Up" (Where the online equivalent here would be making jerky posts, calling people out to fight and using profanity).

I'm saying this not to impress you, but to impress upon you that there may be ways that some of you do things that in not 100% right. And remember, there is a difference between having a certain way that your school might play a technique and wether or not it is being done wrong.

Yes, you might say, but my technique has power, and I can use it to block/strike this way. This may be true, but it doesn't mean that it is the correct way that the technique is supposed to be executed or strategized. I can B1tch Slap someone, but that doesn't make it a good technique (although I'm sure it's psychologically effective, HA).

It may not be easy to swallow some of this, but if I could prove it to you on a couple of techiques, I'm sure that some of you would see that there might be just a bit more to our style then what you have already seen.

All the best, and don't everyone freak out at once. I just got tired of hearing about all the 'meta-physical' crap about making a fist and a curtain. I'm familiar with the term, but I think it's used by people who try to make themselves special. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Let's see who else is as well. Let's put up some video and let's compare and debate. Talk is good, but we've got to see the stuff too. Explain your point of view on a technique in question on 90 seconds of video, I'll do the same and le'ts all try to benefit from the experience.

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 07:43 AM

hey guys,

when it comes to chop choy's, in the lau bun branch we had always used a solid fist. from what i understood was that Professor lau bun changed the chop with a panther first to that of a solid fist because the americans were much larger than the chinese, and he felt that the panther fist wouldn't be as effective as the solid fist.

after going to fut san, i have realized as well the fut san clf also uses the solid fist chop choy.

now Lama, i would like to see what you are talking about. so pls go ahead and post it up.

but i do have a question for most of you. at least in lau buns cheung kuen, we use a fist we call "corkscrew" choy choy. basically it is inverted but not until impact. at the site of impact it twists into the stomach and could cause internal damage.

does anyone else use this type of punch?

Sow Choy

09-29-2005, 08:32 AM

Lama,

Don't let people get to you with internal talk, you know as well as I do so many use the internal talk as a way to hide behind the curtain... ;)

Way too much B.S. in all MA's you know this... So I can understand your put up or shutt up feeling, but we have nothing to prove... As so many have told Frank to prove his version of the history, I feel the same when it comes to this internal CLF...

But comparing different sifus and saying who is correct or not can be a negative thing too... You just said yourself a b* slap can work as well as other techniques, so you may be kicking a dead horse...

But watching forms is definitely not a good way to judge fighting technique... I have watched several CLF sifu and feel they are incorrect too... I have also seen your sifu and clips from your branch as well...

Can our schools all fight and produce good fighters??? I am sure, and we all have yes? Isn't that good enough...

If you are a sifu and have a lot of students and obvioulsy you are proud of your sifu and past, you have nothing to prove, don't let people get you worked up...

Joe

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 08:33 AM

It is generally referred to as yum chop choy or loi yum chop. The twisting at the last minute is just a variation of it and we do it both ways: with the last minute twist and with the hand twisted from the start.

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 09:05 AM

lama,

i had to drop the lady off at work, but im back.

Forgive me for asking this type of question, but didn't you say it is what you believe? But we all aren't you. And by the way you're speaking, it makes it sound like CTS was the only real master out there.

One thing i can agree with, is if your sifu doesn't have any real street fighting, or have never used clf in a real life situation, he may not be able to properly transmit "what it takes" to get the job done. another things is how many of us realize that more than half of our gung fu as it was taught to us gets thrown out the door in a life threatening situation, much to what my student tyler went through. See, i really focus on getting the basics down (punch kick block) because it is that what will save you. a street fight is too fast and unpredictable to say you will use most of your gung fu. Most of us don't train with that intensity.
that reminds me of when Tyler (my student) got jumped by the same 8 guys as last time. since then i de-emphasized forms while focusing on combat related ideas, this is how my student was able to survive, and defeat his attackers and come away from it with his life.

pls , lama, understand where im coming from. i don't know about dfw, but lau bun was a true gung fu master and one who has killed with it. to the in-door students (i think the ones who were in the hop sing tong only) got to understand how to properly use clf in battle. My sifu who was in one of the most infamous chinese gangs in sf at the time, also got in some good real life experience he is able to share with us.

so, lama, i am interested in hearing what you have to say. no bs.

thanks.

hsk

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 09:08 AM

nole,

do you do it with the solid fist, or the panther fist?

we only use that type of punch in our cheung kuen. while in sei ping ma, lets say left hand is at the waist, while the right hand is doing a circle block, as it clears the punch it just blocked the left hand shoots out from the waist, and like i said at that last second, it twists into the stomach.

thanks

hsk

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 09:11 AM

HSK:

All of our "punches" are done with a panther fist. We don't use a straight punch with a fist. The fist is used in other techniques like pek choy, sow choy, fahn jong, biu jong, but never with chops.

Peace

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 09:14 AM

So What Do You Use When Fighting In A Tournament. You Don't Punch?

Now We Use The Panther Fist As Well, But If You Don't Train To Use That Panther Fist, You May Break Your Hand.

What Do You Do To Develop A Strong Panther Fist? What Are Some Of Your Conditioning Ideas To Make It Devastating.

WHEN YOU GUYS MAKE THE SOLID FIST NOLE, WHERE DO YOU GUYS PLACE THE THUMB?

Lama, can you explain your 7 star stance for me? we may have the same thing.
thanks

Ou Ji

09-29-2005, 09:48 AM

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 10:34 AM

Of course when fighting in a tournament you have to use a fist because you have gloves on. I am talking about the forms. If someone has half a brain they can decide when its appropriate to use the panther fist versus the clenched fist in a real fight, as it depends on what your target is.

For conditioning, I do a few different push-up variations while in the panther fist.

When we clench the fist the thumb is held against the middle section of the middle and index fingers.

Peace.

Fu-Pow

09-29-2005, 10:47 AM

Now, I'm not talking out of my a$$ here. I can fully support what I mean and I will agree to post any technique in debate up on this site. But after watching all the different line's demonstrate at this event and others which I have seen, LKH's line, the Lacey's, DFW, CYF, etc., I can share some things that I believe, - the key is WHAT I BELEIVE and have been taught, is not being exucuted correctly.

Many students practice just form play alone and it's obvious, just like the game -telephone - some techniques have been lost in the translation. If anyone wished to hear a completely different line's way of looking at some of these techniques, say the word and I will "Put Up" as upposed to "Shut Up" (Where the online equivalent here would be making jerky posts, calling people out to fight and using profanity).

I'm saying this not to impress you, but to impress upon you that there may be ways that some of you do things that in not 100% right. And remember, there is a difference between having a certain way that your school might play a technique and wether or not it is being done wrong.

Yes, you might say, but my technique has power, and I can use it to block/strike this way. This may be true, but it doesn't mean that it is the correct way that the technique is supposed to be executed or strategized. I can B1tch Slap someone, but that doesn't make it a good technique (although I'm sure it's psychologically effective, HA).

OK, I'm calling bull$hit. Please specifically tell us what techniques you have seen executed incorrectly and what was "wrong" with them. Posting pictures would be helpful, one the "right" way and one the "wrong" way with an explanation of corrections.

Its one thing to critique form based on body mechanics (Jin) or intent (Yi) but to judge people based purely on the shape (Xing) of the their form is kind of silly. Every teacher has a slightly different way of doing things. There really isn't a "right" way and a "wrong" way in martial arts....that's what makes it an "art" and not a science. The true test of correct and incorrect.... is if what you are doing in the form, works in combat.

How do you know it works? That's an entirely different question...and its not answered on a mental level...

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 10:55 AM

nole,

what im asking is have you ever hit anything hard with the panther fist? bones are pretty hard, and i know that it is meant for soft targets, but it is effective when you land a good one right in his cheeks to split his face. at this point of your training, do you think you can execute a proper panther fist without breaking your own hand?

it may sound silly, but one of the ways i train my panther fist is by punching my open palm when im outside of the school. i use some good force too. sometimes i use cardboard boxes to punch holes in them with the panther fist. at first, i used to hit the punhing bag with the panther as well.

Fu-Pow

09-29-2005, 10:56 AM

From my VERY limited experience with CLF it seems that LKH branch uses panther fist where Lau Bun branch would use clenched fist.

I really don't have a preference either way although it seems the panther fist would be a little more focused and penetrating. Not that it's really needed when popping someone in the solar plexas.

I would say it depends on the target. Example above might be better for panther fist. If you grab an arm and pull a clenched fist might be better for slamming the ribs.

The Panther Fist and a closed fist punch have two very different functions. The leopard fist is mostly used on soft targets, eyes, throat, temple, nerve behind the jawbone, floating rib. It is more pinpointed and the force is designed to penetrate deeply..... less surface area, ie the ridge of the knuckles is delivering the same amount of force as a closed fist punch to a smaller area.

The closed fist punch is a more of a bludgeoning instrument that doesn't penetrate as deeply and causes more "surface" damage. Its less pinpointed.

Personally, I follow the soft hits hard and hard hits soft theory. Palm strikes (ie soft) are better suited to hitting hard targets (ie face, jaw, collar bone) and fist technqiues are better for hitting soft targets (throat, eyes, ribs). That way you don't injure yourself in the process of trying to injure someone else.

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 10:59 AM

from what i've seen is most clf only uses a backfist (been choy) to the side of the head. but does anyone execute double kwa choys the same way we do the cup choy, straight up and down?

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 11:02 AM

fu pows correct up to a certain point.

what i mean is the panther fist is a devestating technique and can rip right thru soft targets like a knife due to the ridge of knuckles. but if one hasn't properly developed that fist, it is useless and can even be dangerous to yourself. because even hitting soft targets, if your fist isnt conditioned, it may break.

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 11:16 AM

HSK:

Like I said earlier I do panther fist push-ups and press and hold at the end to really work and develop the proper wrist strength required. I forgot to add our ching jong set has a lot of panther fists in it as well so in addition to practicing the form on the jong and also just practice chops on the jong. I also use the bag to train them.

As far as hitting bone I wouldn't use the panther fist bone on bone primarily soft tissue areas or between the ribs. If I am going hit someone in the face I would make a fist because there is nothing really to penetrate in the face.

Peace.

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 11:47 AM

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 12:23 PM

Never had to actually strike someone full out with a panther fist in the ribs, no. I don't see the ribs as the hardest bones in the body and they seem to crack with more regularity than other bones. The floating rib is an even weaker area. I think hitting a heavy bag or the mook jong provides greater resistance to the rib area.

Could my wrist hold up maybe yes maybe no. I am not going to run out to pick a fight to find out I have no reason to. Sparring you wear gloves. You can only hope you train well enough so that it does work.

It also depends on the size of the guy your hitting. I am small (5'8", 150lbs.) so I would use it on someone my size or slightly larger. If it were someone your size or Fu-Pows size I migh opt for a fist or a baseball bat :D .

Fu-Pow

09-29-2005, 12:38 PM

under that thin layer of skin and meat the ribs are made of bone, aren't they?

im not sure if pushups alone will condition the knuckels that will buckle when you strike. having strong wrists are for any punch. but the panther is unique because of the extension. that if not conditioned, will break your hand soft tissue or hard. doesn't matter.

have you ever hit someone in the ribs with a panther fist full blast?

hsk

I think CLFNole is referring to striking between the ribs. You notice how the shape of the panther fist kind of fits into the ribs? I agree you though, you have to have good wrist strength to pull of a pantherfist to just about any target.

CLFNole

09-29-2005, 12:43 PM

Fu-Pow:

Your right on with this, when you hold the panther fist it fits nicely with the ribs. But like anything you have to condition the punch and you run the risk of hitting straight bone and having more resistance; however since the bone mass of the ribs is narrow you would most likely slip into the groove between the ribs.

TenTigers

09-29-2005, 01:12 PM

Think not so much as striking to the ribs to break the ribs. The intercostal nerves come out from between the ribs very close to the surface. They have very little protection-intercostal muscles, and seratus-both very small. Striking to the peripheral nervous system shocks the body-the pain is excruciating. Many panther fist strikes to the body target these areas. Avertical strike to the xiphoid process,or even the sternum will damage. Lower abdominals, inguinal crease, all these are targeted and prety much mapped out within the forms. Any part of the throat is good eatin' the trachea protrudes so you don't have to hit it dead on to damage it, and the surrounding areas,vagus nerve,carotid, etc all good. Any part of the face, especially around the nose,cheek,jaw, area where "Two zebras f**ked my dog" temporal,zygomatic,facial,mandibular,dural nerves are will cause immediate pain. The nerves around the sinuses come right out to the surface, and cheung ngan choy-steal the eyes strike to the bridge of the nose will cause temprary blindness.
So, not that I'm an anatomy expert, or trying to teach you guys how to strike, but the chop choy does not need to break bone in order to do significant damage. It does, however need to be developed and strengthened, in order to deliver a decent strike without causing damage to the user. Just ask anyone to hit a heavybag with a chop choy and they will undoubtly hurt their hand.
my two cents

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 02:57 PM

10 tigers,

that is my whole point. if you don't train to condition the panther fist regularly, you may not only cause damage to the one you're hitting, but you can hurt yourself as well.

once, the late praying mantis master Brendan Lai told my sifu that americans will never be able to use praying mantis to the best of their abilities, because we never have time or the dedication to condition, and train certain fists.

you're right, i encourage everyone here to execute a few good chop choys into a punching bag full blast and see what the out come is. hopefull you won't hurt yourself, but be careful, there is a good chance you will.

hsk

Fu-Pow

09-29-2005, 03:02 PM

hskwarrior

09-29-2005, 03:09 PM

fu pow,

you big tree trunk, you're full of spice today aren't you? ya BIG silly ;)

regardless, if thats how you train to strengthen your chop then thats great.

have your tried punching holes in cardboard boxes, not all that hard, but i like seeing the holes popped out afterwards.

but all im asking is other than push ups, what type of conditioning does some of my fellow choy lee fut'ters are doing?

ya real BIG silly! :p

Kennyfist

09-29-2005, 03:42 PM

It seems the thread has taken a digression into how you would use what fist.....
Remember a charp is a charp........and it does make sense to begin to learn about a charp with a normal fist.......
Let me help redirect the thread back to original topic:

From previous post: "Maybe I should try to take a more "positive" turn to forum....

It makes sense to work from the obvious to the subtle, from the external to the internal, from the outside to the inside, from the "abrupt" to the "sticky", from the "large" to the "small", from the more "sectional" power to the more "whole or zheng ti" power, from the yang to the yin and so on .....you get the picture I guess......

Since Joseph started out with the "charp"....lets sort of take it from there......

"charp" is a "simple word" and it is not whether it is a cup or a charp or whether it is a "normal" fist or a "ginger" fist or whatever fist that determines which side of the curtain you place it on...... it is the details and refinement----the subtleties that make the difference. ie you can do a "charp" on one side of the curtain, and you can also do a "charp" on the other side of the curtain.......both are still "charp"..........

Just like two similar stories that are well known....say cinderella....you can tell the same story and it will still be called "cinderella" but you can put a "twist" to the plot to make it "different" and achieve "an effect"......... so you can do something underneath the obvious or outside to make it "different" without changing the name "charp"....... and just like you can step on the pedal "full on" to power the engine....or you can "regulate the gas" (yes, sort of a "hint") to power the engine.......it no longer becomes a comparison of "absolute power" per se.... but as Joseph puts it nicely.....: " winning with minimal effort" ie maximal "efficiency" eg you won't swing an iron ball with an iron chain to "kill a fly"----that would be silly......

BTW it makes sense for a beginner to first learn to pick up "a rock" to hit or use so he/she doesn't injure "the hand"....... and with such a "weighted" "weapon" it makes sense the next step would be to swing it on some "ropes" to achieve max. distance.........but it does not get "behind the curtains" yet until you turn the limb into (as Joseph nicely compares) an inflatable "hose" connected fully to the dantian "pump" and the "weight" which was once "dead or brute" now becomes "alive" and "regulatable" like an inflatable "medicine ball"........

Once that is achieved, it would make sense that you, at your choice, can decide whether you "swing the ropes" or "ram the solid tank", whether limb behaves like a "whip" or a "hammer" or "steel" bar is your choice and how you pump and use your chi----the chi being the medium which inflates....and at your choice at the right time and the right place and the right direction.....you can explode the qi and a relatively flexible and "soft" rope or hose can suddenly become "solid like iron" .....like GUM GONG.....

This is getting boring and I feel like I'm "talking to myself"........

Take care people (including Joseph :D ) :)

Buck Sing Gwoon

09-29-2005, 04:54 PM

Hi everyone,

Charp Chui is a favourite technique of Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut and is the foundation of over Ten other fist techniques that characterise BSCLF. Like a knife, charp chui strikes place all of the punch’s power into a small area, allowing maximum penetration.

We have 4 basic methods of strengthening our Charp Chui punches:

1. The first and most basic are knuckle push ups. The purpose is to strengthen the tendons of the fingers, hands, wrists and muscles of the forearms.

2. The second training method utilises a hanging ball filled with very fine stones. Each type of Charp Chui can be practised on this bag and since it moves freely your charp chui punches must be directed with precision.

3. Thirdly we have sand bags placed about waist height on a small table/bench etc. We constantly punch this with our Charp Chui’s, each time ( gradually ) increasing our force of the punch.

4. Finally we have hanging canvass bags at our Gwoon, filled with sand which we punh using the Charp Chui.

It takes at least five months of proper training to strengthen the wrist to support the force of a solid Charp Chui.‘

Kennyfist

09-29-2005, 07:21 PM

Lama,

Quote: "Hey, it's not "Charp" guys, it's "Chaahp". There is no "r" in the technique. And it means to 'stab'. Stabbing, is the action or the energy that is used when performing the technique. Some of you know this already, but it seems like a few of you might benefit from this info.

Oh, and by the way, ...all this behind the curtain crap, is just that. Crap.

There are just two type of students; Regular students, and "Yat Sup Di Jih." If you're sifu wasn't an "In-door disciple" of his teacher, and his teacher wasn't either, than the odds are that you might not have learned a lot of stuff. Probably doesn't mean you were taught 'wrong', but an attention to certain details, and the privalegde of learning certain forms probably wasn't there."

It has been stated on this forum before, the noi nim sou is an in-built mechanism in the system and progression of learning.... there is no need to go and "buy or find" some "curtains" to "play with or hide"........

BTW it has been stated on the forum that noi nim sou was present from chan heung and if you follow chan heung legacy....and progress deeper and deeper and continue ....soon you will encounter the curtain......and yes...there are students who don't persist with a style and there are "Yat Sup Di Jih." as you mentioned and that is why there are curtains that distinguish.....

Likely people "in the know" like Joseph can tell how much you "know" , ...and it is not about saying how close you are to the "source".... but by examining the presence or not of the in-built curtain mechanism......... and there may be little value in "putting up" a video clip of a form , because ...by definition already stated, external is what is obvious and on the outside which you can probably see.....but internal is what lies underneath and subtle and (likely) cannot be seen (or is not obvious).........

Lets leave it at that, shall we? :)

bean curd

09-29-2005, 09:46 PM

kennyfist say "and there may be little value in "putting up" a video clip of a form "

Disgree.

Many of us who are old, no need to touch by hand to see ngoi lim sau. Extra Joseph understand this, so to show for us would not be futile in action, but rewarding in nature.

So Extra Joseph with humility i ask for an example of your skills, do not be shy nor be humble as you words show your great character of virtue and your actions will express the brush of the canvas

Lama Pai Sifu

09-30-2005, 04:36 AM

Yeah, believe it or not, video will tell a lot. If there are any of you that think you can't watch a guy on video and see if he know's his stuff...I say; You just don't know what to look for.

As far as this internal discussion....these usually are such bull. If you are telling me that your form is not powerful, but you are going to touch me on my rib and I'm going to go flying through the air, or die of internal bleeding...I want to see this skill of yours before I die.

I've seen a guy who can put his hand up to a light switch and make the lights flicker by interupting the flow of electricity (no sh1t) and a guy who can make your kidney's HOT from 10 feet away. Neither of these guys could touch you and make you start coughing or sneezing or fall down and cry.

C'mon, the serious people here know the difference between martial science and science fiction.

Post up your stuff. I'll be putting up clips next week. Let's pic some techniques:

Here are a few that are done very differently (let's face it..someone is doing them wrong, everytechnique can't have 5 ways to do it); and some things just have a different 'flair' or 'flavor' to them. I acknowledge this. But I see some, what I have been taught, are just plain errors, I can also say and show "WHY" they are errors, in certain's lines.

1 Chiun Na Hand, or our line call Haught Kui. I see lot's of differences in this technique alone. I have a funny story about when DFW, his son, me and my Sifu were all in DFW's school, and the technique came up...

2. Gwaii Ma, kneeling stance.

3. Chom Kiu - Sinking bridge ( I think some people may not even know this)

4. Deng Jeung - Pressing Palm

5. Jung Choih & Biu Jung (I think some styles only use one or the other, or do them almost the same, just with one hand or two)

6. Bowing techniques - Now these are more a matter of style then right or wrong. Fun to see the variations though, huh?

7. So Choih. Not that I see too many people do it 'wrong'. It's interesting how most lines either use it regular (thumb pointing up) or Faan So Choih, with the hand inverted, thumb pointing down.

So le'ts get everyone to put up or shut up. There's a butt-load of free sites to place your video. Let all get an education and do something positive for our styles. Some stuff we may all come to agree on, some stuff we may have to agree to disagree. Either way, CLF wins!

Oh, and HSK, we use a Seung Gwa Choih as you mentioned as well.

hskwarrior

09-30-2005, 07:36 AM

in regards to internal i also agree that alot of it is hocus pocus.

my sifu recalls once in the past that doc fai wong was doing an internal demonstration where he was holding back a group of people at a distance.
now if this were the case, pls expleain to me how my sifu's classmates happened to get up and walk in between doc fai and his group of students in the middle of it all and not get thrown, injured or anything else.

i've seen people wrap their hands around sharp swords, and act like he can't get cut. well, of course he wasn't going to get cut. because at the angle i was in i saw him loosen his grip around the blade and then begin to rapidly slice back and forth. when he was finished he showed the crowd his palm and it was uncut.
obviously.

however, i do believe we all have some internal after all the training we've been through. as my sifu puts it, anyone inlcluding athletes have internal. they just don't realize it. another example is one of my sifu classmates startled him, and my sifu sort of palm him in the balls in reaction. he didn't hit him that hard, but the guys nuts swelled up like cantalops. needless to say my sifu never heard the end of that from GGM Jew Leong.

i recall once when he demostrated a biu jong across my kneck kindof softly, but the next morning i had a big a$$ bruise going across my kneck. so, internal does exist, most of just don't realize it does, but it definitely isn't what some make it up to be.

lama, is sueng =double? if so thanks. how do you like the seung kwa choy?

oh lama, can you explain for me what your 7 star stance is? is it the din ji ma at a 45 degree angle?

CLFNole

09-30-2005, 07:39 AM

I was not aware that chum kiu isn't a common technique. We have it a number of different sets.

Remember its what "you have been taught". Whats wrong to you could be right to another. Right or wrong doesn't matter. Does it work thats what really matters.

Regarding bows generally speaking you can see similarities in the formal type bows; however many of us have incorporated shorter bows for demostrations or tournaments, so thats where differences might be seen.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2005, 10:20 AM

5. Jung Choih & Biu Jung (I think some styles only use one or the other, or do them almost the same, just with one hand or two)

We use the term Biu Johng but not Johng Cheuih. What's the difference?

7. So Choih. Not that I see too many people do it 'wrong'. It's interesting how most lines either use it regular (thumb pointing up) or Faan So Choih, with the hand inverted, thumb pointing down.

Our branch differentiates between Saau Cheuih (palm down) and Chin Ji Cheuih (Chin Character Strike) (palm up).

BTW, what romanization system are you using?

TenTigers

09-30-2005, 11:04 AM

I learned two ways to throw sow choy-one with the palm side of the fist, the other more like ngau gok kuen, striking with the knuckles side. What are the benefits and disadvatages of each? For me, I develop power with both, but the ngau gok kuen allows me to hook the bridge, or head, and go around corners. The other seems quicker off the jab or chop choy.
Of course, my CLF experience is scant-some chan/Hung Sing, and whatever I can
steal from DF!!!(did I say that or think it?) Then again, Chan HS has a Hung influence, and supposedly Tam Sam studied Hung-Ga as well, not to mention Tang Fong and Yuen Ling were said to have studied CLF-possibly Buk Sing? So , so,...so basically...

I am one confused puppy! :D

CLFNole

09-30-2005, 12:02 PM

If I read it right jong choy, might refer to fahn jong/pow jong choy or uppercut punch; however from the spelling I am not 100% sure.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2005, 01:59 PM

If I read it right jong choy, might refer to fahn jong/pow jong choy or uppercut punch; however from the spelling I am not 100% sure.

Hmmm...except Biu Johng and Faan Johng don't seem anything alike. I have a feeling that what Lama means by "Johng Chui" might be what we commonly call Biu Johng and that his "Biu Johng" might refer to something like our Biu Johng but with forward intention....that is... hitting with the front of the fist in an inverted punch rather than a clothesline with the forearm. Biu does mean "dart" and darts fly straight out not swing around from the side like our "Biu" Johng.

Maybe Lama can clarify.

Lama Pai Sifu

09-30-2005, 05:00 PM

I do not mean either to be an uppercut strike. That would be either Pao Choih (Straight arm uppercut) or Jyu Geng Pao Choih (Mirror Hand Uppercut).

The 2 different Jung Choih that we use in our style:

Jung Choih - Both arms extended, one high one low, Gung Sik, Lower hand palm down, high hand palm turned up. Both hands in fists. Primarly used to "crash" against opponent's chest/body/face. Also used to throw when lower are captures the opponents arm/wrist. Gung Sik is positioned (optimumly) behind opponent and they are thrown over front leg. Frequently follows So Choih. If So Choih is used as a block/deflection, Jung Choih is a very quick 'rebound' to the target. This technique is mostly about opposite forces (each hand) working against/for each other to pull in different directions.

Bui Jung Choih - one arm extended, other hand with palm facing out. Used mostly from Ma Bouh or Gung Sik. Biu is to 'thrust', so this technique can be done to short-range closeline someone or can be used to stike with the fist. Someone also mentioned about it going 'around'. It does that too. This technique is much faster than the previously mentioned one. It is often preceeded by Pek Choih. Good for close range, but not so good once a grab has been established. This techniques power is in the torqueing of the waist (what clf is all about) and is great to help you 'break' out of trapping range back to punching range. I could write two pages on both these techniques, but I'm trying to be brief and to the point.

So there are a few different ways to do this particular Jung. The first one has virtually no variation.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2005, 09:36 PM

I do not mean either to be an uppercut strike. That would be either Pao Choih (Straight arm uppercut) or Jyu Geng Pao Choih (Mirror Hand Uppercut).

The 2 different Jung Choih that we use in our style:

Jung Choih - Both arms extended, one high one low, Gung Sik, Lower hand palm down, high hand palm turned up. Both hands in fists. Primarly used to "crash" against opponent's chest/body/face. Also used to throw when lower are captures the opponents arm/wrist. Gung Sik is positioned (optimumly) behind opponent and they are thrown over front leg. Frequently follows So Choih. If So Choih is used as a block/deflection, Jung Choih is a very quick 'rebound' to the target. This technique is mostly about opposite forces (each hand) working against/for each other to pull in different directions.

I'm pretty sure we DON'T have this in our version of CLF forms. I know the technique to which you refer as I have seen it in Hung Ga. We do have something similar but it is is executed from Cat Stance and we call it Chyun (pierce).

Bui Jung Choih - one arm extended, other hand with palm facing out. Used mostly from Ma Bouh or Gung Sik. Biu is to 'thrust', so this technique can be done to short-range closeline someone or can be used to stike with the fist. Someone also mentioned about it going 'around'. It does that too. This technique is much faster than the previously mentioned one. It is often preceeded by Pek Choih. Good for close range, but not so good once a grab has been established. This techniques power is in the torqueing of the waist (what clf is all about) and is great to help you 'break' out of trapping range back to punching range. I could write two pages on both these techniques, but I'm trying to be brief and to the point.

So there are a few different ways to do this particular Jung. The first one has virtually no variation.

So you're "Biu Johng" and ours is essentially the same. What you call Pek Chui we call Chin Ji Chui. Its all semantics but essentially the techniques are pretty much identical.

So what you want?

Just playing...... ;)