Kung Fu Magazines Choy Lee Fut 101, a study session

[hskwarrior]

ok lets get this thread started.

I will openly admit, that because of language barriers within my lineage, we have had to come up with american terminologies for the chinese ones.

I'll be the first to start asking questions and hopefully get some good responses. and this may benefit others as well who read this but are afraid to ask, so i am opening the doors for you guys as well.

ok let's start with something simple. What do you call:

what we call the cross over horse? others may call it advance step. so description: start out in sei ping ma, and take your right leg and bring it forward. it looks similar to the twist horse but it crosses over instead?

what do you call the retreat stance? the reverse of the cross over.


what is it when you are in a cross over horse and you step backwards into a din ji ma? is the stepping backwards into din ji ma called something other than din ji ma?

Is there a name for it when you step out into a 45 degree angle din ji ma? and what are the names of the other angles in chinese using the same din ji ma?

i have a lot of questions, so maybe this thread will be a good educational one. we need to speak about something else once and a while, don't we?

lets make this one work fellas. CLF, MAN!

FRANK

[hskwarrior]

so i guess you would prefer the drama then right, over discussing clf.

all these clf people, and the only ones who would speak up is joe keit.

wow.

[Ou Ji]

I don't understand the crossover connotation. Sounds like a hill climbing stance (dun san ma) or front stance.

I don't know about the others.

[hskwarrior]

i described its movement but maybe you didn't understand. however im going to the hospital.

talk later/

[T. Cunningham]

We call the crossing over gwai ma. Retreating we call it tau ma. As far as I know, deng ji ma is deng ji ma regardless of the angle.

Todd

[Ou Ji]

Ok, what's confusing to me is you say the crossover is similar to the twisted horse. They both sound the same to me. I only know of a twisted horse and don't differentiate between stepping forward or backward.

This is where it would help if pictures could be posted.

Hope your student is doing ok.

[JAZA]

chin see ma twisting stance
gwai ma just crossing
ji ma rear leg not extended gong bu
ding ji ma rear leg extended
sei ping ma ma bu

[Sow Choy]

Hey guys...

Had lunch with my sifu and asked for literal translations of these stances and the ones we do...

Here are the stances we use

1. Say Ping Ma - 4 level horse (square horse)
2. Gong Ma - Bow horse
3. Diu Ma - Casting Stance (Cat Stance)
4. Lao Ma - Twist Stance, the feet stay in place the twist...
5. Buy Ma - Step foward Twist Stance, a side or foward step, I asked for a literal translation... My sifu took his chopstick and turned it around... Ha ha ha
6. Kow Ma or Tow ma - Twist Stance in retreat, Kow means to catch, steal etc...

EJ, Kow Loi... ;)

7. Kay Lun Ma - Unicorn step, 2 twist steps...
8. Dahn Tie Ma - 1 leg stance (crane)
9. Loq Gwai Ma - Knee down stance... My sifu said Gwai is to kneel, like in church etc...

10. Chong Fu - Leaning stance, means hidden Tiger

The movements Frank you speak of, we usually say the name of the stance... But sometimes we use these...

1. Hoy Ma, open the leg to the side Horse...
2. Serng ma , step foward into a stance...
3. Jun Ma, step foward
4. Toi Ma, step backward...

There must be alot more, LamaPai Sifu, where u at??? :)

Lets keep this one going... after stances and footwork lets go into hands or feet... section by section...

Joe

[Ou Ji]

Gwai Ma I know also as a kneeling stance.

Don't understand #5 Buy Ma, even though I turned my chopsticks around I don't quite see it. :)

Maybe it's just me but I find it a little odd to have a different name for the same stance depending on whether you're moving forward (#5), retreating (#6) or staying in the same position (#4). Either one the feet and legs are positioned the same.

Like Kow Ma would be Toi Lao Ma - Stepping Back Twisted Stance. Or am I butchering the Chinese language?

I can see how the action is also in the name. Like the description of Kow Ma indicating the application.

I just hate having too much to remember, I'm getting old.

[Fu-Pow]

Just a few modifications. Hope you don't mind Sisuk...



5. Buy Ma - Step foward Twist Stance, a side or foward step, I asked for a literal translation... My sifu took his chopstick and turned it around... Ha ha ha

Baai Ma= place (as in... to place something down, in this case your foot) horse




10. Chong Fu - Leaning stance, means hidden Tiger

Chahn Fu=Raze the Tiger (ie knock down or level the tiger). Specifically, it refers to the technique of a dropping side kick that cuts into the opponents supporting leg.

I'm not sure what a low leaning horse stance is called.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

What exactly are we trying to figure out here? See if this stuff helps....

Here are some stances...

Tau Bouh - Stealing Stance/Step (Step behind)
Ma Bouh/Sei Ping Ma (Horse Stance/Four Corner Horse)
Nau Ma - Cross Stance (as in Stepping Forward)
Gung Sik/Ma - Bow Stance
Diu Ma - Empty Stance (Cat)
Gwaii Ma - Can mean Kneeling but also means to "turn over" - like what the one leg does to hit the stance
Duk Lop Ma - Hanging Stance (Crane)
Fook Fu Sik - Tiger Subduing Stance
Bun Gwaii Ma - Half Kneelin Stance
Kai Lun Ma/Bouh - Unicorn/Twisted Stance
Chaat Sing Bouh - 7 Star Stance
Baat Jih Ma - Figure 8 Stance (Based on Chinese Character for 8)

How about minor fist seeds; blocking techniques. Here are a few;

Poon Sau - Clinging Hand
Jeet Sau - Intercepting Hand
Jyu Geng Sau - Mirror Hand
Nahp Sau - Parrying Hand (I don't see this in most CLF)
Pak Sau - Slapping Hand
Fook Sau - Supressing Hand
Che Sau - Circling Hand

Or some hand techniques:
Ping Choih - Level Fist (Horizontal)
Bouh Choih - Front Hand (Jab)
Tuhng Choih -Back Hand (Cross)
Gwa Choih - Raising Fist
Lahp Choih - (Standing) Vertical Fist
Pek Choih - Hammer Fist
Gok Choih - (Horn) Hooking Fist
Jyu Geng Pao Choih - Mirror Hand Uppercut
Pao Choih - Cannon Uppercut Fist
Kahp Choih - Stamping Fist
So Choih - Sweeping Fist
Biin Choih - Whipping Fist
Chaap Choih - Stabbing Fist
Chuyhn Choih - Penetrating Fist
Waahn Da - Forearm Strike
Boi Gim - Kidney Hammer Fist
Biu Choih - Thrusting Fist
Jung Choih - Crashing Fist (Like waves against rocks)
Bong Choih - Smashing Fist

About 20 or so more.

Approximatly 30+ Kicks as well.

18 Palms, 18 Elbows,Fingers techniques, class terminology, commands, etc.

My Sifu never spoke English, so for almost 18 years, I had to suffer learning Canontese, ug!

[CLFNole]

I have also heard chong fu referred to as "level the beach". Not sure why maybe someone with a more in depth understanding of chinese slang might help. My wife told me chang fu has nothing to do with "beach". Thats about all I can ever get out of her about kung fu before she yells at me. :D

It also seems terminolgy varies from lineage to lineage, branch to branch.

[Fu-Pow]

I have also heard chong fu referred to as "level the beach". Not sure why maybe someone with a more in depth understanding of chinese slang might help. My wife told me chang fu has nothing to do with "beach". Thats about all I can ever get out of her about kung fu before she yells at me. :D

It also seems terminolgy varies from lineage to lineage, branch to branch.

I'm pretty sure its "Level the Tiger." At least when I did my translation of LKH's Siu Mui Fah poster those were the characters that I saw. Although I've been wrong before. :o

[CLFNole]

I am not taking about our poster I think you are right on with that. I have some other book maybe the one by David Chow and it has a buk sing sifu showing the technique and the english is written as level the beach. I am guessing they say something different than chong fu but with chinese there are a variety of different names for the same technique.

[Fu-Pow]

According to my English-Cantonese dictionary the term for beach is hoi taan.

The characters for Chahn Fu are:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5277&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=864E&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

Not saying your wife is wrong but as you probably know there can be a lot of confusion over words that sound alike but have a totally different meaning. Hence, the reason that Cantonese talk so **** loud!!! :D

[hskwarrior]

now this is what im talking about. ;)

[Sow Choy]

Chong Fu...

I was thinking of a talk I had with my sifu and with Master Chow Keung of Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon...

When we were comparing Pek Kwar Dahn Do to Fu May Dahn Do... We both use the term "Chong Do", they explain as "no see" when describing the sword when pulled back behind you while your left hand extens out... They then described Chong Fu as the same thing...

My sifu was saying the name of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon to me in cantonese "Aw Fu Chong Loong"

So thats where I get the hidden from, could be wrong, but it would be interesting to hear some different names for that position, we use either chong fu when the low side kick is performed, or soh gurk when its a sweep... also Fook Fu when we jus lower to the ground...

Just was thinking of that time...

peace...

Joe

[Ben Gash]

ah, see I know it as Tsang Fu or "cutting the tiger" relating to the downwards sidekick implied in the movement. Why is it downwards techniques are to do with fighting tigers in CLF? Is this a Chinese cultural thing?

[Fu-Pow]

Chong Fu...

I was thinking of a talk I had with my sifu and with Master Chow Keung of Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon...

When we were comparing Pek Kwar Dahn Do to Fu May Dahn Do... We both use the term "Chong Do", they explain as "no see" when describing the sword when pulled back behind you while your left hand extens out... They then described Chong Fu as the same thing...

My sifu was saying the name of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon to me in cantonese "Aw Fu Chong Loong"

So thats where I get the hidden from, could be wrong, but it would be interesting to hear some different names for that position, we use either chong fu when the low side kick is performed, or soh gurk when its a sweep... also Fook Fu when we jus lower to the ground...

Just was thinking of that time...

peace...

Joe


Hmmm....my Sifu explained it to me as "Jong Tau" or Post Head or Head of the Post. Kind of like when you "post up" in basketball. Every style has its own "Jong Tau." For example, SPM it is the beggar's hand, Hung Gar it is the Finger Pointing at the moon and Choy Lay Fut it is the Buddha Palm. Its not really a technique but a way to put your opponent in your sites and possibly it had the original purpose to identify your style. Also, in the Fu Mei Dahn Do it is possibly to hide your sword from the opponent.

Maybe someone else who is more knowledgable in Chinese can educate us Gwai Los on this point.

Also, I'm pretty sure its Chaan Fu and not Chang Fu.

Not that it really matters all that much...afterall, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." It just happens that I'm a language buff in addition to being a martial artist. What an annoying combination!!!

[TenTigers]

Conceal the sword=it hides the actual length of your sword. When holding it as such, only the tip is showing, the hand is pulled back to the rear. Since dahn-dao is a short range weapon, this is very dangerous to underestimate your opponent's striking range.
-my two cents

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

When training yesterday I asked my sifu again about Chong Fu and Chong Do...

Chong Do he said means inside or hidden is the best way I could translate it.. That is the same character as the Crouching Tiger movie I was remembering...

But he pronounced Chang Fu like Chang Jerng saying its the same character as Chang Jerng. When translating he said Chang is to push up or open... Granted his English is a bit rough, but it didn't refer to the side or angle...

When I asked why Chang Fu, he got down low and said when a tiger is poised and ready to strike... This is what the meaning is suppose to be like...

Also Chang toi is the same character too... When I type Chang its pronounced more like Chaung, but typing in Cantonese is kinda hard and always a challenge...

Hope all you are having a good week...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow,

When training yesterday I asked my sifu again about Chong Fu and Chong Do...

Chong Do he said means inside or hidden is the best way I could translate it.. That is the same character as the Crouching Tiger movie I was remembering...

But he pronounced Chang Fu like Chang Jerng saying its the same character as Chang Jerng. When translating he said Chang is to push up or open... Granted his English is a bit rough, but it didn't refer to the side or angle...

When I asked why Chang Fu, he got down low and said when a tiger is poised and ready to strike... This is what the meaning is suppose to be like...

Joe

As I understand it, what you are calling Chang Jeung and Chang Fu, we call Chaan Jeung and Chaan Fu.

The character for Chaan is:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=5277&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=lau&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

I found a character for Chang that seems like what you are describing:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=6490&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=lau&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

BTW Joe, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm actually a bit worried that I could have some of the terminology confused. Chaan and Chang sound so similar.

Some way we'll get to the bottom of this. :D

[Sow Choy]

Hey Fu Pow,

I never thought you were arguing with me... CLFNole has always been the one to remember names of past masters and technique names, where as I speak chinese on a more conversational level...

So I like this thread as we can share the terms their meaning and etc... Because each move can have several names example: downward palm, thrust palm, palm block, etc...

In Chinese as well... When I learned Man Ji Kuen from Kwong Cho Yin the terms were different for some of the techniques... Different families have the same stuff but call it different... Interesting how Northern styles seem to have a more military approach in terminology...

Anyways... I hear your sifu is goin to Hong Kong for Poon Sing's birthday...? I will be there for a few weeks at that time... I hope you can make it out there, it's gonna be fun...

Joe

[Invisible-fist]

I call the forward one "unicorn step" and the backward one "Stealing Horse".

In my personal notes, I also call them "dragon advancing" and "Dragon retreating".

[Sow Choy]

Invis...

You call step foward with one step tiwst unicorn step? Cool... We call 2 twist steps unicorn horse or Kay Lun Ma in Cantonese... We also call stepping back twist stealing step or Kow Ma, Kow can mean steal, catch, lock... They refering picking up chicks as "Kow Loi" ;)


Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Hey Fu Pow,

I never thought you were arguing with me... CLFNole has always been the one to remember names of past masters and technique names, where as I speak chinese on a more conversational level...

So I like this thread as we can share the terms their meaning and etc... Because each move can have several names example: downward palm, thrust palm, palm block, etc...

In Chinese as well... When I learned Man Ji Kuen from Kwong Cho Yin the terms were different for some of the techniques... Different families have the same stuff but call it different... Interesting how Northern styles seem to have a more military approach in terminology...

Anyways... I hear your sifu is goin to Hong Kong for Poon Sing's birthday...? I will be there for a few weeks at that time... I hope you can make it out there, it's gonna be fun...

Joe


Cool cool.

I would like to make it to Poon Sing's B-day but I've been banned from Southern China because I'm too tall. :D

But seriously, I'd love to go but its mostly a money issue. Who know's though??? Sifu will be there though along with some of my classmates.

Ciao for now.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Joe, when are you going to Hong Kong?

I'm going next month...and I'm going to hang out in Canton/Toi Son for a few days as well.

Let me know.

[Sow Choy]

Lama Pai,

I will be there from Dec 27-Jan 9...

I would love to meet ya bro, There will be some very large banquets going on... Poon Sings B-day as well as the Monkey King Chan Sau Chung is holding a banquet there too, plus his son is getting married... I thing we are going to Jung San in China for a demo for charity as well as passing by the king mui school...

Joe

Fu-Pow...

Come on man... This is hong kong... take your dads wallet... and bring the limo...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow...

Come on man... This is hong kong... take your dads wallet... and bring the limo...

Joe

LOL:D
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