im out

[hskwarrior]

at this point if i was to act like kenny is, i would have been banned.

so im trying to wien myself away from this wasteland. nothing but dram gets accomplished here.

so, joe keit, kno, i got your numbers, and will give you guys a call from time to time. i'll keep in touch.

but this place is full of some many derilicts, pure haters, and wannabe clf guys.
wanna be tough guys.

so im out, but you must understand if i pop up, im admitting im addicted to this drama. but all good things must come to an end.

peace......if u can find it. here at least.

but watch how boring this place will be while im gone.

later

[Chief Fox]

That's a bummer. A lot of good stuff happens here. Check in from time to time.

We're all not haters.

Maybe just the CLF guys. :D

[extrajoseph]

at this point if i was to act like kenny is, i would have been banned.

so im trying to wien myself away from this wasteland. nothing but dram gets accomplished here.



Hi Frank,

If you keep your words, I am out of here too and Kennyfist you should as well. It is not funny any more, can't you see everyone is chuckling at us? The only loser is CLF!

Take care!

[iron_silk]

Joseph,

take care! and I tried to pm and email you but for obvious reasons (I guess) you blocked those options.

Later!

[Fu-Pow]

Don't let the door hit you on the ass.... :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

fu pow,

you really need to stop that big dog attitude, remember, real fighters can see when someone else is either a real good fighter, or just mediocre.

don't forget, there is a slight difference between putting on the gloves and getting into a life or death situation.

but you don't have to hate, bro, i may think what i think of you, but i don't hate on you. i just think you have pumped yourself up to be more than what you are.

i remember when you told kno that some big guy will show up at his door. you made us all think you were some buffed monster. you're average build. but you are choy lee fut so i have your back when you need it. whether you want it or not.

maybe i'll put up a copy of me doing your set, to see who can do it better :D

stay clf fu pow,

:D

[Fu-Pow]

fu pow,

you really need to stop that big dog attitude, remember, real fighters can see when someone else is either a real good fighter, or just mediocre.

And you're a "real" fighter huh? Oooh...scary.


don't forget, there is a slight difference between putting on the gloves and getting into a life or death situation.

but you don't have to hate, bro, i may think what i think of you, but i don't hate on you. i just think you have pumped yourself up to be more than what you are.

i remember when you told kno that some big guy will show up at his door. you made us all think you were some buffed monster. you're average build. but you are choy lee fut so i have your back when you need it. whether you want it or not.

All I remember about that time period is someone telling me that some hung sing hatchet men were going to show up at my door. Ooooh...scary!



maybe i'll put up a copy of me doing your set, to see who can do it better :D

stay clf fu pow,

:D

Good luck with that.


I thought you were leaving, what happened?

[hskwarrior]

you dont want me to do that. ;)

[yutyeesam]

what happened to k-no? with all these historical debates, i woulda expected to see him, serpent, and bean curd.

i think kfmagazine should hire you, hsk! you brought life back to the southern forums - i'm sure they could give you the stats of the amount of online activity here before you started posting about history, and after. you should be compensated with a life long subscription to the magazine, or at least a free pair of studded wristbands! :D

-123

[hskwarrior]

did you hear that mr. gene ching?

anyhow, thanks for the kind words yutyeesam. i think i would agree with you that whenever my name is on a thread, whether it is good or bad, it has brought a certain kind of life to this forum.

but as a pair on equal sides of the coin, i give it to joseph too. at one point i considered him my arch nemisis, now he's like a friend i like to mess around with and push buttons.

all i can hope by this historical debate is the students of choy lee fut all go and understand their history just a little better.

thanks again.

frank

[Serpent]

what happened to k-no? with all these historical debates, i woulda expected to see him, serpent, and bean curd.You'd be surprised who still wanders in and out of here from time to time.

Frank has beaten this horse to death so many times already that there's really no point in continuing. To quote the Ching man, "Find your peace in practice."

;)

[hskwarrior]

joseph=serpent.

if it werent true, how can we explain the two of them appearing around the same time?

beat this horse to death huh? or maybe you can say i choy lee fut-ed the history huh?!

[Serpent]

I'm not Joseph, although I do know who he is.

How can you explain us both appearing at the same time?

Well Frank, this is a great example of your research skills (or lack thereof). I've been around these boards for years, long before you or Joseph showed up. However, you only saw what you wanted to see, which was, in your eyes, us both appearing at the same time. You see, some fool started spouting off all kinds of nonsense, trying to change history, and we both happened to step in to defend the truth. Just because this was the first time you'd seen us doesn't mean that we both just happened to appear then. You put way too much emphasis on your own importance.

[hskwarrior]

ya mama slurpent

i knew your punk a$$ would show up eventually.

you always do when joseph shows up.

sucka!

[Serpent]

No. I always show up when you have another go at spreading your ill-founded bullsh!t, sullying the history and reputation of our great art. Joseph usually shows up for the same reason.

You must be very proud.

[Eddie]

It’s a great pitty. I havent been on these forums for some time, mostly cause it was pretty dead for a while. When I came back in, I saw all these great articles from all these great people, only to find that the are now leaving? This is not fair : - ).

You guys worry way to much about things, you cant imagine how much we all learn from your posts. Each one has so much info in them, its amazing.

I’m reminded of some old spear of destiny song “ Come back come back all is forgiven…” :cool:

without a few key players, this forum is useless. we come here to learn, and arguing about something show passion and loyalty, something that is not very common again these days.

I hope franks addiction will not let us down. This is one time when we are hoping someone goes on the rebound :)

[hskwarrior]

my addiction to what?

and check this out eddie, you remember, you contact me way in the past to learn about your own history because you didn't have one. you were'nt sure what branch you belonged to, whats up with this?

if i took it wrong "sorry" but you make me sound like im addicted to drugs. and thats not cool at all.

so what addiction are you referring to?

[Eddie]

shees, dont be so paranoid sir :)

you said, you admit to be additcted to this forum :) or something like this.

My post was meant to be a compliment to you. We cant loose you now. I think I said this before here too, but you keep attacking me for everything I say. I'm not against you, not at all. Please!

you should try not to attack everyone so quickly :D . you surely seem to live by the saying best defence is ofence (this is not a insult - again maybe a compliment)

*sigh* kung fu people ! shees.... we like to fight

[Eddie]

so im out, but you must understand if i pop up, im admitting im addicted to this drama. but all good things must come to an end.



:rolleyes: :cool: :D

[hskwarrior]

OKAY, :eek: OKAY :o

IM SORRY! ;)

[hskwarrior]

IM SORRY, SOMETIMES WORDS ALONE WITHOUT THE VOICE CAN BE CONFUSING WHEN YOU CAN'T HEAR IT IN THEIR VOICE.

HOPE FORGIVENESS IS IN YOUR HEART BRO, MY APOLOGIES.

NOW, ACCEPT OR ACCEPT DEFEAT!!! :rolleyes: ;) :D

PEACE BROTHER!

AND THANKS FOR THE COMPLIMENTS, ITS KIND RARE TO GET THOSE AROUND HERE.

US GUNG FU PEOPLE! :)

[Eddie]

no appology neaded, just cunfusion i guess. you are a fighter after all, und das ist what figters do :).

I actually said this to you before, I really take so much home from some of the posts here. There are some very cool people here that knows so much. Doesnt matter which direction the posts go, it usually have enough info there to keep me thinking for ages. Pretty much the only thing i can do till I have anough money again to travel abroad again. Sucks living in a third world country which we can actually see going down day after day. :(

I like it when these forums get a bit heated. Allot of good info come out. :) :cool:

[extrajoseph]

Hi Eddie,

What you said is very true, if it weren’t for all Frank’s hot air I would not have dug so deeply, and tried to think clearer.

Interesting how he still sees the whole debate as the Chan Family against the rest of CLF. Ah, the poison of human politics! He has turned into a robot by his elders. :D

All this remained me of the debate about teaching Creationist as against Darwinian Evolution in the American schools; I am constantly amazed by how religious and political fanaticism can turn us into muddle heads!

I am sure you can think of some other exampls in your own country.

Yeah, Frank is a fighter, but he does not know what he is fighting for!

I am glad you are getting something out of all this, me too. :)

Take care, Bro!

[hskwarrior]

Joseph, You Emit More Hot Air Than I Do, Because At Least The World Knows Who I Am And Can Check My Website And See My Picure.

The Only Thing You Are Good For Joseph Is An Argument.

I Find You Contradicting The Very Family You Are From. I Am Not.

But Until We Get To See Your Face Joseph, All You Are Is Hot Air.

Just A Few Words Behind A Comuter Screen.

I Wonder Why You Hide So Much.

Not My Business, My Business Is Informing The World On The Fut San Hung Sing Branch.

Are You In Australia Joseph?

[hskwarrior]

Oh Dear Brother Joseph,

I Am Only Fighting To Have All Of The Choy Lee Fut To Hear And Accept The Hung Sings Account Of Our History. The Chan Side, Says We're Wrong, We Say We're Right.

Then There's Joseph!

Joseph, If You Think I Am The Only One On The Forum That Can See You Are Faltering On Your Own Account Of The History, You Are Wrong. People Like Clf Nole Will Get Their Hands On More Material That Mentions The Green Grass Monk And Begin To Think Maybe The Chan Side Did Cover Up A Few Historical Items In Their Favor. You Remind Me Of That Guy Alan Lee From Australia From The Li Yiu Ling Lineage.

Clf Nole, Joe Keit, And A Few Others Don't Care About The History, But The More They Check It Out Like I Have They Will Have The Desire To Know The Truth Too. But Its Only You, Kenny, Serpent, And A Few Other Anonymous Characters Who Seem To Have The Biggest Problem With The Hung Sing People Telling You Their History.

But Joseph,......come A Little Closer......a Little Closer.....no, A Little Closer.........long Live The Ching Cho Monk!

[hskwarrior]

For Us To Believe You Joseph, You Will Have To Give Us More Than Your Take On Something We Have No Way To Prove If You Have An Actual Take Or Just A Theoretical One.

Who Is Your Teacher? Where Are You From And Live Now? Who Was Your Teachers Teacher? I Seem To Remember Something To The Effect Of....you Wouldn't Know My Teacher So There's No Need To Tell You Who He Is.

But Joseph, We Are Still Wondering Who You Are. I've Exposed Myself, What About You? I've Mad My Self Accessable To Anyone On The Forum Via Websites, Photo's And Phone Numbers. How About You? Can I Call You To Talk With You? You Want To Call Me? Let Me Know.

i Want To Put Your Knowledge To The Test Joseph. You May Have More Knowledge About History Than Your Average Forum Goer, But In Regards To The History, I Am Far Beyond Them As Well, At Least By A Decade. So Put Up Joseph, Reveal Yourself.

Ya Know If You Don't People May Wonder Why You Won't. You Don't Have Anything To Hide, Do You?

[Kennyfist]

no Hsk......it Is You And Your Group Trying To "change History" And It Is Your Story That Is Sounding More And More Silly The More You Talk.....and More And More Holes And Contradictions Appear As You Try To "argue" Your Story.....it Seems Your Only Method Around The Holes And Contradictions And Lack Of Evidence Is To Tell People To Back Off When They Point Out The Problems........or You Just Ignore The Questions Or Points Raised And Just Go On Blah Blah Possible This And Rumor That....maybe Biased This......"by Word Of Mouth Elder That".......

Where Is Your Evidence?

[Kennyfist]

Another thing, it is YOU and your group who is trying to tell the people including Chan Heung group about the FOUNDING OF CHAN HEUNG'S KUNG FU STYLE CALLED CHOY LEE FUT!

[Kennyfist]

and Don't Attack Joseph About Who Is His Teacher Blah Blah.....you Made Some Claims publically On A Public Forum.....anyone Can Ask You For Evidence To Back Up Your Claims.....and If You Have No Evidence Then Your By Word Of Mouth Blah Blah This And That Is Just myth

[hskwarrior]

KENNY, PLS REFER TO OTHER THREADS.

YOU HAVE A MESSAGE WAITING. NOW BACK TO OUR SHOW.

COME BACK AGAIN NEXT TIME AS WE EXPLORE MORE DEEPLY THE POT HOLES OF THE CHOY LEE FUT SYSTEM AS A WHOLE.

THANKS FOR WATCHING THE "FRANKIE (MONTEL) WILLIAMS SHOW.


:p

[hskwarrior]

THANKS FOR CHECKING US OUT HERE AT THE FRANKIE WILLIAMS CHOY LEE FUT DISCUSSION.

TODAYS SHOW IS: WHO IS JOSEPH'S TEACHER? WHAT FAMILY IS HE FROM?

DON'T GO AWAY, WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK AFTER THESE MESSAGES.


:p

[CLFNole]

Keep me out of this becuase I for one am not buying what Fut San is selling. You can research all you want but if you can't speak or read chinese how far do you really think you will get. All the old sifus speak cantonese or mandarian and if you can't talk to them how much real info can you hope to get out of them.

The whole thing about the "in and out baat kwa", if that is true then it would be the GGM's style that we do not CLF since that form was broken into 3 forms and were not sets created by Jeurng Yim. What was the GGM's style? Not CLF so what style did Jeurng Yim do besides CLF? Did he create his own sets and which ones?

All of the history out there has more holes the a piece of swiss cheese. Arguing about it is a waste of time. Lets let everyone believe what they want and leave it at that.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

Clf Nole,

For One, I Haven't Disrespected You Or Your Beliefs, So I Would Appreciate If You Lighten Your Tone, Man! No Joking.

You Are No Hung Sing Man, So I Don't Care If You Follow The Fut San History. No Sweat Off Of My Shoulders Or Lost Sleep. Its Not My Fault That You Only Read That Old Ass Book Recently. You And The Rest Of The Forum Goers Are Way Behind Me On The History. Like It Or Not. I Don't Try To Fill The Holes Because This Is No Place To Do So.

And I Can Tell You Haven't Been Around Chinese All Your Life. For Me, I Have, And Im Not Stupid Not To Have A Translator Present. Its Not My Fault You Lack A Desire To Know Your History.

The Way I See It You And The Lee Koon Hung Lineage Have A Special Circumstance, You Are Members Of Two Great Branches Of Clf. It Is Not My Fault You Are Blinded By Bloodline. You Obviosly "never" Researched Hung Sing History, Thats Cool. I Have.

But Keep Your Goddamm Attitude Out Of My Face. Straight Up.

You Think Im Kidding, Call Me. Get My Number From Joe Keit. I Look Forward To Your Call.

[hskwarrior]

You Don't Know That The Green Grass Monk Was A Master Of The Fut Ga Style.

He Is The Man Who Thru Jeong Yim Added The Fut To Choy Lee Fut. If The Chan Family Only Has Fut To Represent There Shaolin Roots, The Hung Sing Lineage Which Starts Out With Chan Heung But Finishes With The Green Grass Monk.

See, Chan Heung Was A Master Of Choy Fooks Style (choy Ga) And Lee Yau Sans (lee Ga) And When His Style Was Finished He Did So By Using Fut To Represent Buddhism.

In The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon The Green Grass Monk Put The Fut Into Clf, And Therefore Completed The System.

Don't Be Mad At Me, Hell I Just Found A Site Sourcing From The "city Of Fut San" Which Names Zhang Yan As The Founder Of Clf. I'll Get It And Post A Link. Im Standing Strong On My Branches History. You Clf Nole Can Do What You Want.

However, "i" Am Surrounded By Young, Old And In Between Chinese All My Life. So It Is Only A Phone Call For Someone To Go To Lunch To Tell Me What My Chinese Documents Say In English. Yes I Have Collected Chinese Writings About Our Branch, I Just Have No Need To Present Them To You. Call My Sifu If You Dont Trust My Word.

So When It Comes To Having Access To Chinese Folks Clf Nole, I Got You Beat 10x's Man. Wife Or Not.

[hskwarrior]

The Hung Sing Kwoons History Is Full Of Holes Only According To You.

The Reason Why, Is Because You Have Never Researched Our History.

Ignorance Is Truly Bliss.

One Side Of The Coin You Say We're Wrong, On The Other, We Say We're Right. Who Cares. Why Do You. If You Don't Why Are You Responding?
Nothing Better To Do? What About Training? Talking With Your Wife? Making Babies? If You Hate The History So Much, Why Take The Time To Respond?

I Just Don't Get It.

I Mostly Don't Answer Kenny Because I Don't Want To.

Clf Nole, Learn From Example.

Don't Think You Are Inside The Culture Now Just Because You Have A Chinese Wife. No Offense. But Just Because Your Wife Is Chinese Doesn't Mean There Are No Other Chinese Out There. Give Me Alittle More Credit Than That Or I'll Just Take The Credit Instead.

[CLFNole]

Your My Hero Frank.

Look I don't care what you believe and I don't care what you do. I just like to practice my art. I leave the fighting about history for those who like to talk abouth history.

I think the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is a joke. If there was a real "hung sing kwoon" that wasn't established for political reasons I would tend to listen to them more. But learning what I have I don't pay much attention to their claims of history.

You should try to talk to people in a civilized manner you always got to bow up your chest everytime someone says something you don't like. Thats life and I would think a guy who has been around CLF as long as you would have figured that out by now.

I know your going to come back with all this fighter stuff and you fight when attacked. I never attacked you I was just making points and you have trouble discussing things like a normal person.

Whatever, I am sick of all this crap anyway.

[Eddie]

I really respect people for having passion for their beliefs, and one thing I truly admire is TRUE loyalty. Its probably one of the most important things in my book, and I live by that, very single day, in business and in daily life, so I can completely relate and understand Franks attitude towards his beliefs. The aggression is still something I need to understand, but it does show true passion, so I guess it can be justified somewhat. I just don’t think attacking CLFNole was really such a cool thing sir. I also read his response and I see no attitude or anything you suggested, so maybe your attack was a bit harsh. CLFNole is my kung fu brother (or relative), therefore my involvement.

Extrajospeh, you are so right. When it comes to religion and politics we tend to stop thinking with our logical brain, and tend to bring emotion in the argument. This is probably not a good ting, I cannot help but thinking about Plato’s ideas of being a better thinker if one has no body and no human attachment, however, it might not apply completely to this argument I’d imagine.

Knowing all these facts is good from an academical point of view, and often it helps you understand certain aspects of training also better, but facts can be distorted sometimes, and history are often changed for political gain (as stated elsewhere). Martial Arts is about the physical too, so one need to put these factual aspects into play, and actually practice them in real life. That makes a good martial artist.

I think it is important to understand everything about MA, from the history to the last detailed move. If one can synchronize that, it can be good.

But im really tired, so im going to bed now.

[hskwarrior]

Thats How Stupid You Are.

It May Have Been Risen To The Public To Bring In Tourism, But The Same Was Done With The King Mui Branch. And If You Don't Know That Then You're My Hero. Fool.

See, I Won't Stoop To Your Level And Disrespect Anything About Your System Or Lineage. Not That I Can't, I Respect Joe Keit, And His Sifu, Especially Lee Koon Hung. But If You Think Your Lineage Is Any Better Than Anyone Else's Or Even Better With Your Gung Fu As Well, You Are Completely And Utterly Insane.

Who Cares About How Pretty Your Forms Are? "show Me Your Gung Fu" If You Know What I Mean, And I Don't Mean Forms.

Now, If You Knew One Iota Of Hung Sing History, You Would Have Known That The Hung Sing Kwoon Has Stayed Underground And Out Of Site. But They Have Always Kept Up Their Gung Fu. Now, I Agree Their Forms Lack A Little Pizzazz, But Their Fighting Is Off The Hook.

But I Don't Expect A Sqaure To Know About Our History. Stay A Chan Clan Man, Nole. Your're Better Off That Way. Yeah You Will Be Welcomed In By The Chan Family. Thats Your Best Choice.

But As Long As Your Learn Clf, You Will Always Be Faced With History.

So Sad :(

[CLFNole]

Frank:

Read my previous post all I said was "You can research all you want but if you can't speak or read chinese how far do you really think you will get. All the old sifus speak cantonese or mandarian and if you can't talk to them how much real info can you hope to get out of them."

Did I question whether you have been around chinese your whole life? No
Did I bring up anything about my wife being chinese? No

Don't bring my wife into any of this crap, she has nothing to do with anything. I like to read and post here to pass time and work and talk with friends in a civilized manner.

I think of you as comic relief to the forum.

[hskwarrior]

Well, I Felt The Animosity Behind His Words, And I Have Always Respected Clf Nole, And Often Tried To Speak To Him Like A Clf Brother.

Instead I Get His Hatred.

Im No Christian, So I Won't Turn The Other Cheek. Smack Me And I'll Smack Ya Back.................remember That Song?

Im Not A Passive Person, So In Regards To My Agression, I Apologize For Having Such A Strong Stand Point.


This Place Is No Academic Panel Or Board Of Directors, Just A Peanut Gallery Of Fools Who Attack From Behind Their Computer Screens.

But If You Don't See Why I Hit Clf Nole, Then I May Be Wrong. And If Im Wrong Im Man, And I Will Apologize First.

Frank

[CLFNole]

I give up.

[hskwarrior]

Nole,

You're Are Acting Like I Don't Already Know What To Do.

I Am Surrounded By Millions Of Chinese, And I Will Get A Translation Easily. Why Do You Assume I Haven't Tried To Do That?

Maybe Because I Fell You Flashed On Me, I Am More Agressive Right Now, And Im Sorry. I Don't Want To Disrespect You In Any Way. But If I Feel Like It Is Happening To Me, I Will Speak Up. I Guess Thats The Virgo In Me.

So We Can Either Squash This And Move On, Or Then What?

And Thats Funny You Say You See Me As Comic Relief For This Forum, Because I Am Actually Having Fun With You Guys, Except I Have Done My Research. I Am Never Mad Until Now, When I Post.

So If You Think I Am A Joke Would You Like To Hear What I Think Of You?

[hskwarrior]

You Don't Treat Me As A Friend. However, I've Tried.

[CLFNole]

I have always treated you well. I brought up some points that you didn't like and you get all sensitive. Re-read my post again, in no way was I attacking you. I was questioning your information and you answered by attacking me rather than the questions.

I meant the comic relief thing as a joke and what you think of me I could really care less. We are all just people talking on the internet for christ sake. Do you really think what someone 3,000 miles away from me thinks about me is going to affect my life? I run a sucessful business and all I care about is my wife and family.

[extrajoseph]

Hey Frank,

Haven't Dino told you that throw wild punches in all directions without a focus will tire you out in a fight?

Cool it man and leave CLFNole and his wife alone, they are not your target!

:mad:

[hskwarrior]

As Well You Should.

Again, If I Took Your Responce Negatively, I Am Apologizing. I Am Sorry.

In Your Words You Just Sound Like You Think You're Superior. And Im A Leader No Follower.

But You Did Put Down My Lineage Of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, And You Know How I Don't Like People Talking Sh1t Like That So I Flashed.

But Before I End This, I Do Want You To Know The China Government Is Also Behind The King Mui Branch As Well. Check It Out At Choyleefut.com.cn It Clearly States It On That Sight That There Involvement In Choy Lee Fut Is To Create Tourism. But The Elders Of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon Never Stopped Practicing Their Gung Fu, Just Went Underground.

Pls Accept My Apologie, Bra.

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

That's better.

Now I am over here, give me the best you've got, give me some evidence that Ching Cho did exist.

Go on, throw that big one...

:D

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I never think of myself as better than anyone and I don't think I have ever implied such a thing. There is always someone better than all of us and thats how I look at things and use it to motivate myself when I train with my sifu and brothers, like Joe>

Also I did not put down your lineage, I just don't think that the Fut San School is the real hung sing. I think it is controlled and heavily influenced by buk sing. I respect all the lineages and sifus, it is just that everything I have seen and heard about that school looks fishy to me.

If you like it I respect that.

I have no hard feelings because I have said before I don't let myself get worked up over words...but that being said please don't bring up my wife again, she has a tough year personally that I won't get into but its just un-called for.

We are all men here and can talk to each other and should have thick enough skin to take criticism from each other from time to time without going nuts. Look I am Italian too and I used to have a temper like you but over the past few years I have gone through a lot in my personal life and I realized life is too short to get worked up over meaningless things.

I don't know much about the King Mui school and will hear from Joe if he visits in December/January.

I know your a diehard "hung sing" man, well I am just a diehard "CLF man". I think if we could all just be CLF brothers things would work a lot better. People looking at all this must think we are all crazy.

Anyway, no worries, just calm down a bit. Next time if you think I am attacking you try the PM feature and clarify things first, okay.

[Fu-Pow]

I'm going to take this discussion in a totally different and unexpected direction, that may make some of you understand the situation .

This discussion is about values and value systems. Now, values and value systems grow and expand as our conciousness expands. Each level of the value hierarchy "transcends and includes" the system below it. Many researchers in the field of pscyhology have come up with a similar structure of how values sit on top of each other. The most well known is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. However, I'm going to refer to a different model proposed by Dr. Clare Graves called Spiral Dynamics (http://www.clarewgraves.com/articles_content/1974_Futurist/1974_Futurist.html).

Basically the value system progression goes something like this, starting with the most basic and fundamental and increasing in complexity:

Archaic-Instinctual
Magic-Animistic
Mythic-Membership
Rational-Scientific
Pluralistic-Relativistic
Integrative

Now most people on this forum are operating (at least cognitively) at a rational-scientific level or higher. Our buddy Frank, however, is operating at the mythic-membership level. His whole self is tied up in these myths and his membership in this very specific Futsan group. When you guys attack the group and their claims it is like you are attacking him personally. All your rational arguments mean nothing to him because he isn't operating at that level. He only sees it as an attack. It reminds me of the creationism vs. science debate that still pervades schools. Its a lower, more emotional level of conciousness trying to attack a higher, more rational level....anyways......

Now some of us are even beyond the Rational-Scientific level. Even though Frank doesn't make any rational sense we can show compassion to him because we realize that he is just "stuck." We are open to many different viewpoints and can hold them all in our brain at the same time even if there is paradox. However, we don't confuse this for the WHOLE truth, nor do we see the Rational-Scientific as the WHOLE truth because we see that each claim although partial, but might have some truth to it.

So essentially, we should have compassion for Frank and see that he is simply attacking something that he doesn't understand.

Frank, you need to learn to expand your horizons and progress beyond your current "stuckness." By holding on to myths and making your membership in your group dependent on its truth you are limiting your own potential. Eventually you will be let down.

It's time to move up and out into Rational-Scientific conciousness and then beyond.....

Mmkay.... ;)

[extrajoseph]

Hear, hear and thanks for the cool link.

:)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu-Pow,

You have a good brain. I was just wondering...

Can you see a sense of humour as a form of compassion?

:)

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,

You have a good brain. I was just wondering...

Can you see a sense of humour as a form of compassion?

:)

I'm not sure if a sense of humour is a FORM of compassion....but supposedly Zen masters are supposed to have pretty wicked senses of humour..... and supposedly in the scheme of value systems they are way up there.

When you look at what humour is...it is basically making somebody see something in a new way very rapidly or resolving a paradox in a new way very quickly. Because Zen masters are supposedly masters at resolving paradox then it would seem that having a quick wit would come naturally.

Anyways, I think laughter itself is like a release valve for the tension that is created in the brain when you experience a rapid paradigm shift.

I think that if you could tell a computer a joke it would melt down or at least crash...or maybe it just wouldn't get it. :D

[extrajoseph]

Hmm Fu-Pow,

That computer analogy... it means we need to have the same Gravesian level to share a joke or be able to undergo a paradigmal shift. No wonder they all went over Frank's head, even though he is not without a sense of humour.

Now I understand. See, we learn something new everyday!

Thanks.

:)

[yutyeesam]

Fu-Pow,
Are you familiar with Perry's Cognitive Scheme?

http://www.perrynetwork.org/schemeoverview.html

We learned of this in grad school (in education). Anyways, your article sorta reminded me of it.

-123

[yutyeesam]

Hmm Fu-Pow,

That computer analogy... it means we need to have the same Gravesian level to share a joke. No wonder they all went over Frank's head, even though he is not without a sense of humour.

Now I understand. See, we learn something new everyday!

Thanks.

:)

True, we cannot all share a joke, XJ. Kenny did not share Joe Keit's sense of humor. Nobody's fault, just the humor level was not aligned. Joe did take the higher road tho and apologized for the lack of alignment, because he eventually looked through Kenny's eyes.

On an unrelated note:
When we cast judgement, can we honestly say we are listening with our hearts? Or are we just listening with our left brain? Do you know what it means to listen with your full being? (sorry, too much Krishnamurti!)

-123

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow,
Are you familiar with Perry's Cognitive Scheme?

http://www.perrynetwork.org/schemeoverview.html

We learned of this in grad school (in education). Anyways, your article sorta reminded me of it.

-123

I hadn't read that before but based on the article you posted (which I read very quickly) they seem quite similar.

Basically, you go from..... unquestioned truth of the group---->rationally constructed truth--------->truth in sliding contexts...or something like that.

For example, in physics it was thought that Newton's calculus and physics would one day describe all of the mechanations of the entire universe. It was perceived as being THE truth and it was only a matter of time before everything in the universe could be described and predicted by the correct calculation within that paradigm.

Well when they tried to extend that same "truth" to the sub-atomic level things fell apart. On the subatomic level you can only talk about probabilities of particles ie you can't predict the physical behavior of a electron like you predict the physical behavior of a baseball.

They could no longer use that context because the rules no longer applied there. So it wasn't that Newton was "wrong" its that he had part of the truth but only in a certain context ie the atomic level and larger.

[extrajoseph]

On an unrelated note:
When we cast judgement, can we honestly say we are listening with our hearts? Or are we just listening with our left brain? Do you know what it means to listen with your full being? (sorry, too much Krishnamurti!)


Hi 123,

This is how I handle it for the time being. Since I am not able to honestly say that I can listen with all my beings, I try not to cast judgement and put things in their context instead.

It may not appears so, but it is my intention.

BTW, Krishnamurti is one of mine all times favourite. The guy is cool and I love the way he handled his Annie Bee!

Peace.

[fu jow]

...................umm.......fu-pow rules.

[Kennyfist]

Looks like hsk might have been trying to build some type of mob mentality but it "back-fired".

Here is another "nail in the coffin" .....Quote from kei lun :"Sifu McCarthy, please dont say "all the Hung Sing Koons" as if you speak for us all. I am also Hung Sing Koon and I dont agree with many of your statements or the way you present yourself. You say you have contacted all the Hung Sing Koons in the world, have you ever contacted the Hong Kong Hung Sing Koon? Im sure you find different stories when you talk to different people.
Im trying not to speak against you, your intentions are in the right place but you are being pushy, but please dont group us all up because you dont represent all our views. Good luck !"

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu-Pow and 123 (others can join in too),

I can't sleep, wake up thinking about Graves and Perry. Here is my question:

If there is a different levels of Gravesian or Perrysian personality, would it be fair to say that there is a different level of understanding of CLF as well, even though what we do may looked much the same on the surface to the average Joe (no pun intended)?

If that is the case, is it not possible that trying to show the difference between Noi Lim Sau and Ngoi Lime Sau is like trying to show the subtle difference between the Rational-Scientific and Pluralistic-Relativistic level, or between the Pluralistic-Relativistic and Integrative level? You know, it is not everyday that we can have that “ah.. ha..” feeling….

...And even if one level defeats another other in an argument or a physical fight, it is still not possible to say that one level is more correct or more superior than another, it is that they are just different levels of understanding and that it is the level you are in. I am sure many are happy to stay in the more “primordial” levels and win some fights, for that matter, with the basic "Ngoi Lim Sau” and are quite happy with what they have got.

To me, it is a matter of individual cognition and being.

What do you guys think? Is it too integrative?

Peace.

:)

PS.. and it is not surprising that if you are in one level and don't know the other, you would deny its existence. Yes? No?

[Fu-Pow]

...................umm.......fu-pow rules.

Well, my name...Eric...or Ei Rikr in old norse...does mean "forever ruler." :D

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow and 123,

I can't sleep, wake up thinking about Graves and Perry. Here is my question:

If there is a different levels of Gravesian or Perrysian personality, would it be fair to say that there is a different level of understanding of CLF as well, even though what we do may looked much the same on the surface to the average Joe (no pun intended)?

If that is the case, is it not possible that trying to show the difference between Noi Lim Sau and Ngoi Lime Sau is like trying to show the subtle difference between the Rational-Scientific and Pluralistic-Relativistic level, or between the Pluralistic-Relativistic and Integrative level? You know, it is not everyday that we can have that “ah.. ha..” feeling….

...And even if one level defeats another other in an argument or a physical fight, it is still not possible to say that one level is more correct or more superior than another, it is that they are just different levels of understanding and that it is the level you are in. I am sure many are happy to stay in the more “primordial” levels and win many fights with the basic "Ngoi Lim Sau” for that matter.

It is a matter of cognition and being.

What do you guys think? Is it too integrative?

Peace.

:)


I think you are on to something there. You might also look at the modern philosopher Ken Wilber. He is where I first found out about Clare Graves. Basically, these value systems that we refer to fall into Wilber's "intentional" aspect of reality. Meaning they exist "inside" the qualitative conscious world space. He goes onto say that when people have "enlightenment" experiences that they transcend the personal aspect and go "transpersonal." When you look at an "martial" art like Taiji you see a lot of commonalities with other methods of achieving enlightenment, Qi Gong, meditation, etc. Most people associate Taiji with the "body method" of Taiji but I believe it goes beyond the body, to include the mind and the soul. It goes "transpersonal." If CLF has this aspect I'd really be curious. But to answer your question, yes, "intent" and "behavior" are two separate things. You can have the same behavior on the outside but if the intent is different then you are looking at two different things.

Just some food for thought. I try not to get too crazy with the philosophy. Afterall, we are a body, mind and soul and mind is just one aspect of it all.

Ciao

[extrajoseph]

Hi Forever Ruler, :D

I think all TCMA, including CLF, has this "transpersonal" aspect, because they are influenced by the Daoist thought (to quote Laozi), "Everything has Form ("You"), and Form comes from Formless ("Wu")". We used "Ngoi Lim" and "Noi Lime" to expess more or less the same idea, but I think it involves more than just intention, but that is another story.

Thanks for the input.

:)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Forever Ruler,

I think one good turn deserves another.

When I say Noi Lim Sau involves more than just intention, I mean after individuation ("intent" and "behavior") there comes integration. It takes 3 to integrate (Tian, Di and Ren), therefore an extra "agent" is needed.

In the case of Noi Lim Sau (and your so called "transpersonal" Taiji), it is the Heavenly aspect of "Cycle of Time" or "Yun" in Chinese - that is timing and rhythm, to know and to go with the flow, to interject just at the right phase - that is to act at the right "time" with the right "intent" and the right "behavior". When we can do this all at the same time, amazing things can happen.

You may think you know this already, but to know and to do, now that is a different story! These are some of the things we work on in Noi Lim Sau and the goal is not about winning, it is about transformation and integration.

Thanks again for your input.

Peace

:)

[yutyeesam]

I think an interesting exercise that would be very revealing would be to see Hung Sing argue Chan's position and Chan tries to argue Hung Sing's position.

[extrajoseph]

Hi 123,

What are the two positions as you see them?

By Chan Family I suppose you mean the Great Sage Hung Sing (King Mui), but there is also Heroic Hung Sing (Kong Mun, Sun Hui and Guangzhou) and Great Goose Hung Sing (Jeong Yim and Futshan) after that, and Bak Sing of course, so what exactly are the two positions when there are four regional groups?

:)

[extrajoseph]

Hi 123,

Hmm... That is interesting, Frank and you others used the terms, Hung Sing and Chan Family, all the time, who and what exactly do these terms referred to?

:confused:

[Ou Ji]

I'm not really involved in all this and don't want to get caught up in it either but it appears to me to be Futsan and Chan Family as having the conflict. Hung Sing seems to be too generic in this case. Which side the other 2 fall on are unknown to me. Maybe they'd rather stay uninvolved.

The integration comment is very interesting. At first I thought you were talking about something 'secret', the usual BS that goes on, but it seems this is something anyone can reach or aquire. I think most know this but like you say knowing and doing are completely different.

And it's not specific to any art or style, it's a harmony within the individual. Some masters will tell you it isn't about speed but position, being in the right place at the right time. Sounds to me like this could be Noi Lim Sau, flowing with the situation. Moving in the right direction, being in the right place, to respond with the right intent with the right move.

Also sounds like being 'in the zone'.

[yutyeesam]

Hi 123,

Hmm... That is interesting, Frank and you others used the terms, Hung Sing and Chan Family, all the time, who and what exactly do these terms referred to?

:confused:

This just shows my ignorance on this issue. Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to pro-Jeong Yim being co-founder of CLF vs. Chan Heung being the sole founder.

This is the big debate, correct?

-123

[hskwarrior]

come on,

we all know that as of right now, clf is not a complete system. With the chan family having 2 branches within their line (King Mui Great Sage, and Strong Victory-via Chan Koon Pak) the fut san hsk lines, and buk sing lines none of know what the other branches teach.

the only way for clf to become a complete system is to combine all three main branches, but until then the choy lee fut family will always be sectioned off as the chan family, hung sing and buk sing, and therefore the big debate will continue.

this fight will go on until things change.

[firepalm]

didn't you say you were leaving? ;)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Are we still debating about:

1) Jeong Yim being co-founder of CLF vs. Chan Heung being the sole founder?

Or have we gone onto:

2) CLF is a complete system vs. CLF is not a complete system?

With regards to (1), is 123 correct in assuming what you mean by "Hung Sing" is the pro-Jeong Yim being the co-founder group and what you mean by "Chan Family" is the pro-Chan Heung being the sole founder group?

With regards to (2), you seem to classified the "Chan Family" in a different way. "Chan Family" now included anyone that is not from Futsan vs. Jeong Yim Futsan Hung Sing. Is this correct?

So can you tell us this before we go on: What are we debating, (1) or (2)? and Who exactly is this "Chan Family" you refer to all the time?

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

come on,

we all know that as of right now, clf is not a complete system. With the chan family having 2 branches within their line (King Mui Great Sage, and Strong Victory-via Chan Koon Pak) the fut san hsk lines, and buk sing lines none of know what the other branches teach.

the only way for clf to become a complete system is to combine all three main branches, but until then the choy lee fut family will always be sectioned off as the chan family, hung sing and buk sing, and therefore the big debate will continue.

this fight will go on until things change.

Hi Frank,

So the way to combine all three main branches together and make CLF into a complete system is to introduce a new co-founder in Jeong Yim. Is that right?

:D

[iron_silk]

the only way for someone to have the complete CLF system is if they were taught the entire knowledge from

1)Jeong Yim's Hung Sing
2)Tam Sam's Buk Sing
3)Chan Heung's HungSing/Chan Family

correct? Wow...then there is sure a lot of sorry CLF practitioners with incomplete systems ;) :D

Though Buk Sing has gone though changes to make itself unique...didn't ultimately come from Jeong Yim's Hung Sing? Why make sound so separate then?

Just wondering :)

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,
I don't think your "debate" for jeong yim being co-founder or founder of clf has any "leg" to stand on.

If you want to debate whether clf is complete or incomplete system.....what is your definition of "complete"? If Yip man wing chun is examined, do you have to incorporate everything taught by each of yip man's students and grandstudents etc in order for yip man wing chun to be "complete"?

How much do you know about what other branches teach? On what do you base your claim they are incomplete without YOUR BRANCHES INPUT?

AND WHY DID YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE UP YOUR "LONG BAI MEI"?

[thothor]

I'm with warrior.


There is no shortage of idiots in this place. I came here to talk about and enjoy my passion in life and all I can seem to find is ****heads who seem to think talking tough from another continent counts. It is a little annoying.

Anyway. Good luck in life warrior.


And with genuine respect to all you other guys. I was not trying to say that everyone here is just looking for trouble from a phone. The way of a coward that is and I know that many here are not.