Tons of Videos 5th annual WCWC Seminar

[edward]

http://www.windycitywingchun.com/movies/index.html

Tons of videos of our seminar, I'd post more, but this is all the work i'm willing to do... Enjoy. :)

[Li Nin KiT]

lol at some of there chi saos. :p

[Mr Punch]

lol at some of there chi saos. :pLet's hear why.

Give us the wisdom of your 19 years.

[Li Nin KiT]

yea I been doing kung fu since 6 years old lol.

[edward]

It always amuses me when people base their knowledge and skill based on their years. THe world is filled with incompetent people with "years in the art" and so the list continues.

[Liddel]

I see where our disrespectful friend is comming from....

I often think in such a 'formal' exercise things like crossing ones hands and a overly flacid fook Sao that only has one touch point in parts instead of three is less than satisfactory but not wrong.

However im never as arrogant to say its useless or laughable, nor am i as ignorant to ignore the fact that they are not competing seriously, its obvious its in a very light hearted fashion...

Then again ive only been practicing VT for 9 years :confused:

Li Nin KiT come off that high horse. :cool:

Maybe you should just be appreciative that they are willing to share !

[Mr Punch]

I was talking about his years on the planet. I guess the same thing applies, but it was more in response to this posters's general way of slating things without giving a reason.

Yeah, I've got a few things I would maybe criticise about these vids, and I when (if) I do so i will expect some fair answers and a discussion and the final conclusion that it's just because we're from different lineages but basically the principles are the same.

But before I consider talking about these vids, since he chimed in first, I want Li Nin Kit to tell us why he's LOLling at the chi sao!

[Li Nin KiT]

But before I consider talking about these vids, since he chimed in first, I want Li Nin Kit to tell us why he's LOLling at the chi sao!


nothing serious, few just look little sloppy.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ed,
I liked the vids.
I'm not sure what people are looking for in chi sau practice but that seems, to me anyways, like how it should be.
Your Sifu always stayed one step ahead of the students which makes them think.
I liked seeing them run through the situations in their head before they reacted. :D

It's not a demo, just practice.

J

[stonecrusher69]

I liked the vids also...sifu fong is good at chi sao.I liked the way he used his shoulder for deflection.He made some bad mistakes at times but everyone does.

[edward]

Can you please educate me and point out the bad mistakes, I'm curious

[sihing]

I don't think Sifu Fong made any mistakes, I just think he wasn't very serious when playing Chi sao with his students. You can see obviously he was having a good time and smiling allot. You can also see that he has a solid structure and uses economy of motion and forward pressure in his movements, it's obvious. I'm sure if he was playing more seriously he could have done allot more, and would have looked even better than he did. He wasn't even attacking the students that much, he let them do most of the attacking and was still able to easily stop most all the attacks. His skill is widely known and I for one respect him for that, regardless if I don't agree with everything his system teaches.

James

[YongChun]

I think the videos were very good. Thanks for sharing. One shouldn't criticize unless they have videos of themselves which show better. The stuff shown can't be criticized for lacking this or that. It's just friendly chi sau and not a fight. In friendly chi sau sometimes you let your partner hit you and sometimes you don't. As much as you can you maintain good structure but sometimes you can but you don't and sometimes you can't. Chi sau doesn't all have to look like two robots doing it. For fun or for a learning experience you can also mix in non WingChun stuff from time to time or just as surprise movements. If your partner's Wing Chun is good then these surprises will not work but so what. Augustine Fong always maintains good posture and relaxation. There are no perfect Wing Chun teachers who would satisfy everyone's criteria.

Ray

[stonecrusher69]

edward...If you want to believe there was no mistakes on those vids its fine with me.Then I guess we have a different opinion on that.I was not knocking them I liked them very much so what's the problem? youngchun says I should not criticize unless I produce some vid of myself..why? is this the policy of Kung-Fu mag forum? if it is please, show me where it is stated or is it your own policy? This is a forum of discussion I thought.If people are so sensitive then i'm so sorry to offend you...

[edward]

I'm asking for an honest opinon to point out the mistakes.... show me what you see

[couch]

I DO hope stonecrusher responds...

Thanks for sharing, Ed. Honestly, Fong rocks and it looks like everyone was having a good time and learning lots...most important!

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[edward]

I have no problem with critics, and everyone has a right to like or not like, but often times you see these critics, say yuck, and when you ask them why, they basically shut up.... why is that, because they have no idea what to say other then be negative... they can't explain, write, or even theorize about wing chun.. they have no idea about how lines work, sticky hands work, controlling opponent, and even basic concepts of wing chun....

i share these videos just to share, that's it, not to persuade or say our line is better or join, peopel do what they should do and and that's all fine and dandy...

[YongChun]

My comments weren't meant to be that black and white either. I think no one should have problems with criticism, because that's how we can learn and improve. But I think criticism is more useful if it is more concrete because we have lots of levels of Wing Chun people people here and perhaps the newer people could benefit if they understood the reasoning process for the more senior members for example. So for William Cheung stuff I could say it's total crap and then that wouldn't be useful. If I say I don't agree with going to the outside, then we have something to debate about. Conversely I could say the centerline approach is not all its cracked up to be because of such and such reasons. Then again we have something to debate.

In the Augustine Fong case there should be no problem for a criticism. Subjective opinions based on never having worked with Augustine are sometimes difficult to debate. For example you might say his Tan sau is too low and wouldn't work. The TWC people have theirs elevated much more and so they might say something like that. The Augustine Fong people might wonder why they hadn't noticed any problem with that way of doing it these past 30 or 40 years. Still it can be debated as to the pros and cons anyway.

This group should be about constructive debate which could mean totally disagreeeing with each other. My video suggestion was not corect, it was just a suggestion (I like videos). Not everyone likes to make videos or could do something better. For example I can criticize a ballet performer but I certainly wouldn't be able to produce a video of myself doing ballet unless it was for a comedy show.

Furthermore I think we are all Wing Chun enthusiasts and should not be each others enemies. We have a common goal of analyzing Wing Chun and talking about it.

Ray

[edward]

Yong thanks for your comments but the fact is... right and wrong, it doesn't matter... let me explain

Regardless of how you do your tan sau, and yes there is a right way to do it... but let's say for the sake of argument you do tan sau in an obscure way, and you can actually make it work in a fight...thus, even if you do tan sau, with muscle, and in the wrong position, etc, etc.. but you make it work..... whose right, whose wrong...
I know why we do the tan we do, and i've learned from other lines how they do it, but even if we do the tan with the best of structure, its not for everyone..... its all from a CPOV.. (certain point of view)

The fact is, i post videos with this mentalitty in mind... its like me offering candy, those who want the candy can have it, those that don't , won't... its as simple as that, i honestly think forum chats are a waste of time, coz, while people share ideas, yada, yada, yada, you can't mix and match different wing chun lines, regardless in there bare down strip format it may seem similar... sure everyone knows not to fight the force, but there are degress to how people achieve it... one line may fight the force at a 1st grade level, while another does it at a college level, techincally both maybe right, but trying to make a frankenstien wing chun from different parts and lineage, just doesn't work in my opinion....its just to different, i honestly thinking people should spend more time training and less time reading and writing, it doesn't help them out at all... i figure, sink or swim with what your doing, if you keep sinking then change, but if its working for you then its still all good.

[Liddel]

Edward stated "I'm asking for an honest opinon to point out the mistakes.... show me what you see"

Id just like to say first - i appreciate the sharing of these vids and hold respect for those involved in opening themselves up for others benifit.
The following is just discussing VT theories. No disrespect is intended, no do i ingnore as previously mentioned that the vids are in a light hearted mannor.

That said -
In my mind in VT we have four main NO NO's to "try" to avoid.

1) Flying elbow's
2) No elbow space
3) Too much elbow space (over extended actions)
4) Crossing Hands

In the vids on almost every step of Poon Sao both practitioners seem (given camera angle) to cover the Bong Sao over thier Tan Sao, which i see as crossing hands.
IMHO in such a formal drill as poon sao this should never happen.
In real fighting its impossible to have perfect/near perfect positioning, but in formal drills it is an aim.

Also IMHO i think that this is just being over critical, given that i believe there is no wrong actions with no negitive outcome.
If the student was good enough to exploit the crossed hands situation then it would have been a wrong action but seen as he could not utilse the situation in my mind the action was good.
So there are many sides to the coin, but my point is, we as VT people should avoid crossing hands.

Also -
My Fook Sao has three touch points.
1) base of the palm
2) left corner of the base of the palm
3) right corner of the base of the palm

I recognise the same problem i have had, which is...
An "over reaction" with respect to Fook Sao. In the vid the Fook Sao is raised up too much on average, leaving only one touch point (the forearm) connected with the Bong Sao.

If the Fook Sao was not raised up and with the Bong, but lifted by the bong, the only outcome would be that
1) there would be more contact with the Fook Sao giving more feeling and
2) he would have used less energy.

It's NOT wrong but could have achieved more economic results.

From time to time i give similar actions to younger students to let them see and recognise where they can take advantage in certain situations so at the end of the day whos to say these actions were not done on purpose !

Again its over critical but its in the intrest of a "discussion..."
fair or not ? Thoughts ?

[stonecrusher69]

Sorry for the late re-ply...One the first clip I saw, the man with the long white shirt got in two maybe 3 times.Two stricks with a low right punch over sifu's tan sao using chum power.very early in the clip.of couse later on sifu fong had tottal control.Another clip is with a tall Aferican American guy did a low left palm strike over sifu Fong right Tan sao.Sifu fong did a lap sao on his palm strike but as he did that the man used a elbow strike to the head.Of couse hestop he did not finish but if he had finished it would had conected as sifu fong had no wu sao hand available.Is that enough??

[martyg]

Sorry for the late re-ply...One the first clip I saw, the man with the long white shirt got in two maybe 3 times.Two stricks with a low right punch over sifu's tan sao using chum power.very early in the clip.of couse later on sifu fong had tottal control.

I think your last statement is the most telling. To me it looked like Fong Sifu could have taken control at any time and in fact did so easily at the end. It seemed he was just letting the guy feel around and try stuff out, which is what any good sifu does with students.

And I'd disagree on those two or three "pot shots", I wouldn't have cared much about those either as Fong sifu didn't. They were just quick "tags" to try and get a hand in, and lacked any real support from the body, let alone any sort of real control or setup to get them in. Unfortunately some people view tagging as being the goal of chi sao, as if they had (what I call) "poison hands of death", like the slightest touch of their hand is supposed to mean some sort of victory.

Personally I give kudos to anyone that's a "name" and actually gets out there and mixes it up with people at a seminar.

[stonecrusher69]

yes they where quick tags but if you maintain good structure his hand should not get in regarldess if the punch is weak.you should stick and flow with your opponet..

[stonecrusher69]

sorry for the poor spelling..its late and im tired..

[Li Nin KiT]

sorry for the poor spelling..its late and im tired..


Didn't have to post that. :rolleyes:

[martyg]

yes they where quick tags but if you maintain good structure his hand should not get in regarldess if the punch is weak.you should stick and flow with your opponet..


I disagree. Anyone can get quick little tags in, that's why they're called cheap shots and why a lot of people focus on them as the basis for their chi sao. And landing them actually can be detrimental to you, as you often sacrifice to get them in (as the person in the video was. He wasn't getting any closer and was leaving himself in position to be taken control of with every motion). Structure is based on transition/flow/energy though, not static positioning.

If I'm letting someone feel and play around, I would expect to see what I saw. Looked to me like Fong Sifu had the upper hand the entire time.

[Mr Punch]

Yong thanks for your comments but the fact is... right and wrong, it doesn't matter... let me explain... but if its working for you then its still all good.Good post. That's why I said what I said in my second post.

And as edward said, we should know why somebody's criticising otherwise there's even less point. That's why I wanted Li Nin Kit to explain why he was 'laughing out loud'! But also why I expected him to not give any reasons.

Please note I didn't say there were any mistakes as such. And thanks Edward for the clips. I'll get back later and explain my take, but for now I'm gonna get some rest.

[sihing]

I think the videos were very good. Thanks for sharing. One shouldn't criticize unless they have videos of themselves which show better. The stuff shown can't be criticized for lacking this or that. It's just friendly chi sau and not a fight. In friendly chi sau sometimes you let your partner hit you and sometimes you don't. As much as you can you maintain good structure but sometimes you can but you don't and sometimes you can't. Chi sau doesn't all have to look like two robots doing it. For fun or for a learning experience you can also mix in non WingChun stuff from time to time or just as surprise movements. If your partner's Wing Chun is good then these surprises will not work but so what. Augustine Fong always maintains good posture and relaxation. There are no perfect Wing Chun teachers who would satisfy everyone's criteria.

Ray

I agree Ray, that the videos are good, and in a simple way it shows Sifu Fong's skill, which is when not really trying he still can defend well in chi-sao. The problem comes when one has a reputation of high skill and then to show themselves getting hit (there were a few occasions where it looked like Sifu Fong got tagged), so when this happens skeptism of his skill arises. If I were him I would not allow any video of myself being hit to be exposed OR not allow myself to be hit at all (IMO Sifu Fong could have done that). If you are Chi-Sao'g with everyone, even in a light environment why let yourself be hit or let your guard down in a relaxed environment? It's like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I realize what was happening and that Sifu Fong would have no problem with all he played with, but not all are like this. And then when you expose such videos, the human nature is to critize everything you see if it doesn't conform to what you know. Unfortunate indeed..

James

[sihing]

I disagree. Anyone can get quick little tags in, that's why they're called cheap shots and why a lot of people focus on them as the basis for their chi sao. And landing them actually can be detrimental to you, as you often sacrifice to get them in (as the person in the video was. He wasn't getting any closer and was leaving himself in position to be taken control of with every motion). Structure is based on transition/flow/energy though, not static positioning.

If I'm letting someone feel and play around, I would expect to see what I saw. Looked to me like Fong Sifu had the upper hand the entire time.

I agree Marty, that it looked to me also that Sifu Fong had the upper hand at most all times, but I disagree with your statement that anyone can get in quick little tags. If that was true then your structure is flawed and more practice is needed. If I do not want to be hit, then you better trap me or control me well otherwise you will not hit me, quick tags or otherwise, period. When we play chi-sao, the goal is not to deflect anything but to hit your partner, using proper structure in regards to occupying space and forward intention. When proper structure is in place, you have much less to think about as your partner has to move you out of place, which requires more effort, time and energy, all of which can be felt, and seen. Forward intention in the arms amplifies all of this and makes your structure even more stable and effective, and harder for opponent on all fronts.

James

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

I have trained with Sifu Fong personally in the distant past. Realize that Fong uses several different teaching mechanisms in Chi Sao. One is to purposefully leave openings to see if the student will respond appropriately....he does the "wrong" thing on purpose to get the student to do the "right" response to that mistake. If you see this on video and don't realize that this is what he is doing, it would look like the student was getting the upper hand on him. Another is to put the student in a bad position and then pause to allow them to figure out what they are going to do about it. During this drill he will actually sometimes allow input from those watching so that they can try and "save" their buddy! :-)
If you saw this on video you might think he does not "flow" well, or that they were just "screwing around." Let me assure you that Fong is VERY good at Chi Sau! :-)

Keith

[edward]

Stone thanks for responding, and i know a little more now from how you responded.... so if you will, allow me to explain to you how to view chi sao and understand it, from a 1st grade level to at least a 2nd grade level...

Right now at your stage, your looking at it, and your like, wow that guy got a hit, so at this time, your thinking this is more of a case of a typical point sparring, that guy in the 1st video you said clearly got a hit. But in time if you practice more you'll come to develop the eye to see, if you look at that hit, his arm is fully extended. Now from a beginners persepctive one would say, man he got a hit, but if in that same instance, assume for a second he did the punch at full power and its fully extended.... well, in wing chun, there's somehting called, "distance" and even if he did throw the punch at full power and fully extended, it, guess what, its short. He didn't move in enough. The best way, to practice, imho when you chi sao, is to do the attack, and still have enough distance to fully extend it. Thus, Sifu did not make an attempt to block a "point sparring" tag, that wouldn't have reached. Well that's the lesson for today in the world of seasame street wing chun. The conept, distance and power play an important role.

[ntc]

I have trained with Sifu Fong personally in the distant past. Realize that Fong uses several different teaching mechanisms in Chi Sao. One is to purposefully leave openings to see if the student will respond appropriately....he does the "wrong" thing on purpose to get the student to do the "right" response to that mistake. If you see this on video and don't realize that this is what he is doing, it would look like the student was getting the upper hand on him. Keith

Ho Kam Ming was my teacher at the Macao school where Fong is from as well. And Keith is absolutely correct in seeing what Fong was doing in the video. That was one of the ways how Sifu Ho used to teach us... he would purposely create openings/weakness/changes in force and energy so that we could develop our sensitivity and learn how to react. Without this form of workout, it would have been difficult if not impossible to do so.. it is easy to be told of someone's openings, energies, etc., but feeling them and experiencing them is another story. I use the same approach in teaching my own students, especially when doing advanced sticky hands.

A second thing that Fong is doing is what Sifu Ho used to call the "Attack/Defend" chi sao drill, where one person solely focuses on defense and the other soleoly on attack. What you see in the video is Fong adopting the "Defender" role while his partner is adopting the "Attacker" role.... that is why you see him primarily defending and hardly attacking. And in a lot of situations, he is purposely creating openings/weaknesses to allow his opponent to attack him. This exercise is something we practiced non-stop and continuously at the school. It helped us to develop really good sensitivity in attack or defence situations as we would be able to focus on either of those when in the associated role.

In addition, to some, it may look like the structure of either Fong or his opponent may either be off, high, low, outside, inside, etc. etc. etc. The point being missed here is that the arms are always in contact, and both people are constantly adjusting their structures according to how the energy is flowing. Which is why you see such apparent fluctuations in structure. In a pure direct strike (not from chi sao), the hands do protect/attack/defend via the classical structure but will still adjust depending on the angle, height, distance, etc. of the attacking hand(s).

My own feeling is that it is very possibly and likely that those from outside the Ho Kam Ming line who have not done these drills would not be able to totally understand what I am talking about. But I suspect that those of you who are Fong's students and from his line will.

Thought I'd add my two cents. But looks like it was a lot of fun... brings back memories of how we used to train decades ago back in Macao.

[martyg]

Hi Guys!

I have trained with Sifu Fong personally in the distant past. Realize that Fong uses several different teaching mechanisms in Chi Sao. One is to purposefully leave openings to see if the student will respond appropriately....he does the "wrong" thing on purpose to get the student to do the "right" response to that mistake. If you see this on video and don't realize that this is what he is doing, it would look like the student was getting the upper hand on him. Another is to put the student in a bad position and then pause to allow them to figure out what they are going to do about it. During this drill he will actually sometimes allow input from those watching so that they can try and "save" their buddy! :-)
If you saw this on video you might think he does not "flow" well, or that they were just "screwing around." Let me assure you that Fong is VERY good at Chi Sau! :-)

Keith


Keith, my points exactly. A lot of people have this view that when teaching they need to come off as completely invincible wing chun gods. This actually goes contrary to good teaching. You need to lead and guide your students by doing some of the very things you mention. It doesn't show weakness, it shows skill in teaching and caring of the development of the student. Unfortunatey, wing chun doesn't teach you how to be a good teacher. Consequently there's a lot of people out there who may be great at their wing chun but crappy at imparting it.

[kj]

[deletia] It seemed he was just letting the guy feel around and try stuff out, which is what any good sifu does with students.

And I'd disagree on those two or three "pot shots", I wouldn't have cared much about those either as Fong sifu didn't. They were just quick "tags" to try and get a hand in, and lacked any real support from the body, let alone any sort of real control or setup to get them in. Unfortunately some people view tagging as being the goal of chi sao, as if they had (what I call) "poison hands of death", like the slightest touch of their hand is supposed to mean some sort of victory.

Personally I give kudos to anyone that's a "name" and actually gets out there and mixes it up with people at a seminar.

Very astute. You hit it squarely once again, Marty.


[deletia]Again its over critical but its in the intrest of a "discussion..."
fair or not ? Thoughts ?

Nice job, Liddel. Your thoughtful approach to analysis and discussion is the sort that sets an example and elevates the tenor and value of the forum for everyone. Hopefully others are benefiting from similar analysis based on their respective knowledge and experiences, whether through tactical or thought experiments.


[deletia]If you are Chi-Sao'g with everyone, even in a light environment why let yourself be hit or let your guard down in a relaxed environment? It's like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I realize what was happening and that Sifu Fong would have no problem with all he played with, but not all are like this. And then when you expose such videos, the human nature is to critize everything you see if it doesn't conform to what you know. Unfortunate indeed..

The fortunate aspect is that Fong Sifu is obviously able to set ego aside and avoid putting on a “show,” much to the tremendous benefit of his students and whichever casual onlookers possess the skills and maturity to glean value. In the case of my own teacher, I and many others are mightily impressed by his skills and interpretation of Wing Chun (like that isn't obvious, LOL); yet he himself rejects formalities and titles, insisting that he remains but a humble student of the art. In my observation and experience this not only provides him more latitude for genuine openness and sharing, but it also enables his own continued experimentation, learning, and growth. "Don't put a lid on me," he says. Self-permission to make mistakes (or "perceived" mistakes, yes, even in front of others) and eager curiosity are typical of many greats regardless of their field(acknowledged or otherwise). I believe this is especially true of those who sincerely apply themselves in helping others to learn, discover, and grow as well. [Naturally, the flip side of the coin is that some greats are motivated, consumed, and occasionally even undone by the demands of pride, their own self-perception, or the need for external acknowledgment and validation.] My point here, again, is that I believe Fong Sifu exemplifies the characteristics of a good teacher as Marty described.

Many thanks and kudos to both Ed and Fong Sifu for their generosity in sharing.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[martyg]

I agree Marty, that it looked to me also that Sifu Fong had the upper hand at most all times, but I disagree with your statement that anyone can get in quick little tags. If that was true then your structure is flawed and more practice is needed.

Use of structure is based on constantly changing and adjusting and being in touch with energy and intent, not by perfectly "positioning" to block things. I'd say we disagree on what "structure" means to us judging by your posts.


If I do not want to be hit, then you better trap me or control me well otherwise you will not hit me, quick tags or otherwise, period.


James, yes - if the stars and moon and planets are in alignment and all is exact in the universe you will not get hit. Unfortunately, this is the real world and chi sao is not fighting. It's a game, and a two person cooperative learning platform. And in the case of the discussion and videos shown, it's a teaching platform.

Quick tags rely on certain falicies in the platform of chi sao. Certain things that can be taken advantage of because in the end it is just a platform and any platform sets up inherent weaknesses. And anyone can be taken advantage of by them. Including you. That's why so many people rely on them rather than something of more substance - they don't take much skill and therefore don't make you very skillfull. ;)



When we play chi-sao, the goal is not to deflect anything but to hit your partner, using proper structure in regards to occupying space and forward intention.




When proper structure is in place, you have much less to think about as your partner has to move you out of place, which requires more effort, time and energy, all of which can be felt, and seen. Forward intention in the arms amplifies all of this and makes your structure even more stable and effective, and harder for opponent on all fronts.

James

Again, very different views as to what "structure" is. I'd define what you describe as posture and shape vs. actual structure (which seems to be a common buzzword nowadays). Structure isn't something that you place, and quite the contrary it is something that is actively sought after and thought about - as it's based off of what your partner/opponent's energy is doing. Structure is a "right now" kind of thing. It's not something you just throw up and pose to block off and ward off all evil like some kind of talisman.

[edward]

What you can't get from the video, or if you've never experienced it before, is the fact is, you can attack sifu, if he let's you attack him..... If he doesn't want you to attack, you won't be able to get an attack through, if he doesn't want you to even roll, he won't let you roll

http://www.hardcoregaming.com/wcmovies/alainfreeze1.mpg

[C Liu]

Hi edward,

The problem with video is that viewers will not be able to feel what is being presented to them in a video format. The "freezing" energy/intent that Sifu Fong is able to exert over someone whilst chi saoing is difficult to comprehend wthout actually experiencing it first hand.

I myself have been subject (victim :) ) to Sifu Fong's abilities and must agree with your assessment regarding what and how much he allows you to do during a chi sao session.

Thanks for the vids.

Your brother in the NYC

[edward]

Well C. Liu there's only so much i can do... if your dealing with a little kid and the best you try to explain to him that fire is bad and its hot, he may still not understand what your saying no matter what examples you give them, so my suggestion grab the kids hand and put it on the stove....bwhahahha...... same thing, i've been fortunate enough to run into almost everyone that the w.c. community consider masters, and in the beginning i thought, wow this is what wing chun is all about, not until i meet sifu fong did i finally realize what fire is and wing chun is all about...... my hands are still burning...

[YongChun]

When I teach chi sau, I let the guy get hits in so that he can learn the attacks and also because it doesn't matter. It's not a fight. The cheap shots or touches are very easy to get in on anyone whether they are a master or not. It's a different story to get a real hit in with full power behind it.

Wang Kiu and Wong Shun Leung both said that a 100% defence is not possible in real fighting. Every boxer gets hit, everyone in UFC gets hit. If you get hit, can you hit back?

Wang Kiu said that even Yip Man got hit and sometimes was black and blue in spots. Wang Kiu himself also got hit a lot when teaching students to attack. With lower level students you can stop almost all hits but then they wouldn't learn a thing. The higher the level of the student, the more success they should have otherwise what are you teaching them?

When Kenneth Chun was here we could also hit him with meaningless hits but with real hits it was a different story. Still he is not invincible to real hits either, It depends on who is your training partner.

One guy I taught with in the early 1980's just came back to training. He just trained by himself at home all these years, Since he didn't know any of the students he let them hit him 100% of the time. Then slowly he picked them apart until they got in close to zero hits. If he started that way right away then there might have been an ego problem situation.

A good sifu doesn't concern himself with this image of being like a god that no one can hit. I know some sifus will try to kill you if you hit them especially if you have an attitude. But within a club where people know each other who hits who and how often doesn't matter. What matters is if you are following all the Wing Chun guidelines as much as possible.

Sifu Augustine Fong always keeps to his form and I think doesn't have this ego problem where he has to kill the first guy who manages to land a hit. I think he is a very good teacher.

Ray