palm strike vs. punching

[eadragon21]

Hey everyone-

Just would like to hear some people's preferences on this topic and why. I myself prefer the palm strike(all types), for several reasons. I find I have more accuracy and control with it, I have more power and speed(especially since I train it hard on the dummy) and overall it just feels more natural. Plus, I find I can recover faster with it(i.e. if I'm determined to strike with a palm and have to quickly change to a pak sao for instance.) I know of and have trained with individuals who prefer a punch, and I'd like to get some feedback here.

I'm fairly new here and apologize if this has already been covered to death.

Peace

[YongChun]

One of my Wing Chun teachers in 1982 said that the higher up you go in Chinese martial arts, the more the palm is used as opposed to the closed fist. The art of Ba Gua is famous for its palm work and large variety of changes and uses. The teacher said the palm is a more refined weapon and the fist more crude. So what you are saying fits in with what he said. Aikido and Tai Chi also have a lot of palm work and don't forget there is that famous iron palm book that shows a photo of the thing master who killed a large Russian work horse with a palm slap to the back.

Ray

[Mortal1]

I heard somewhere palms were used so people wouldn't break their hands when striking. Especially if they fought all the time.

I knew a very tuff guy that had many street fights. His hands are destroyed and crooked. He can't even make a decent fist.

I also think you get a clear strike on certain angles between the gaurd.

My 2 cents.

[YongChun]

More on that horse story: http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/Gu02.html

According to Yu Baizhuang, a direct line disciple of Gu Ruzhang, he actively sought eye witnesses of Gu Ruzhang's iron palm abilities. He interviewed a bone doctor, Mr. Huang, who witnessed several events. In 1925, when Mr. Huang was thirteen years old, a Russian circus posted an ad, for a challenge on Feng Ning Road at Western Melon Park in Guizhou. The challenge was to anyone who could survive three kicks from a horse. The one who could would receive one thousand dollars in gold. No one dared to accept the challenge except Gu Ruzhang. Gu Ruzhang made a deal with the Russians. Instead of accepting the money, he would be allowed to strike the horse once with his palm and the Russians agreed. On the day of the contest, Mr. Huang bought a three dollar ticket. This was a large amount of money to spend in 1925.

He stated, "There was a sea of people with soldiers and police everywhere. The crowd quieted down as the contest began. Gu Ruzhang went into a horse stance and performed his Shallow Breathing Techniques called Tun Qi. After Gu Ruzhang finished preparing for the horse's kick, the horse was brought in to the area. The horse weighed one thousand two hundred and eighty pounds. The horse raised its back legs and kicked Gu Ruzhang in the chest. Gu Ruzhang staggered back three steps. The crowd was amazed at what they had witnessed. Gu Ruzhang retired to the side for ten minutes to prepare for the second kick. On the horse's second kick, Gu Ruzhang staggered back six steps. The crowd roared aloud. Gu Ruzhang retired to the side again to prepare himself for the final third round. This time the breathing techniques took Gu Ruzhang twenty minutes. On the third and final kick, the horse kicked Gu Ruzhang very hard and it knocked him down onto his back. The rules that both the Russians and Gu Ruzhang agreed upon stated that Gu Ruzhang had to get up before the count of three or he lost. The crowd was very quiet as the count echoed in the air. On the count of two, Gu Ruzhang sprang up from the ground and into the air like a carp jumping out of the water. The crowd made a thundering cheer. Gu Ruzhang retired to the side again. This time it took Gu Ruzhang forty minutes to recover from the last horse's kick. When Gu Ruzhang returned, he approached the horse and walked around to the rear of the horse. Without a word, Gu Ruzhang struck the horse in the buttocks. The horse screamed once and fell dead. The audience broke out into a thundering noise, cheering Gu Ruzhang's magnificent feat."

Lau Fat Meng, Master of Shaolin Eagle Claw, witnessed the same event and was curious as to how the horse died. He stated that the horse showed no signs of external injuries. When a postmortem examination was performed on the horse, a large bruise was found near the backbone and the internal organs of the horse were split with massive hemorrhaging.

This became the most talked about martial art event and Gu Ruzhang became the Hero of San Shiang. Many martial artists wondered why Gu Ruzhang struck the horse on the back and not on its head or upper torsal. They theorized that he wanted to demonstrate how powerful his ability was. It was this event that Gu Ruzhang earned the nickname `Iron Sand Palm, Gu Ruzhang.'



taken from: http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/Gu02.html

Ray

[Phil Redmond]

Ever notice that on the dummy the strikes to head are palms and the punches are to the body?
Phil

[Mortal1]

True, good point.

[SevenStar]

I heard somewhere palms were used so people wouldn't break their hands when striking. Especially if they fought all the time.

that is target choice, nothing more. hard to soft, soft to hard. If I put my fist in your stomach, jaw, etc. my fist will come out on the better half of the deal. However, If I hit you in the forehead, my hand will get mangled.


I knew a very tuff guy that had many street fights. His hands are destroyed and crooked. He can't even make a decent fist.

most people - especially streetfighters - are head hunters. when you hit the skull a lot, that can easily happen. This is why boxers, kickboxers, san shou guys, etc. wear gloves.


I also think you get a clear strike on certain angles between the gaurd.


There is never a such thing as a guaranteed clear shot.

[SevenStar]

Ever notice that on the dummy the strikes to head are palms and the punches are to the body?
Phil


bingo.....

[Li Nin KiT]

Well the body is used to punch and the face is meant to palm. Logic is you cause less damage to yourself when palm striking the face then using your knuckles. Martial arts is based of ways of causing as much damage as possible without inflicting as much on yourself.

[Mr Punch]

I'm with the general consensus here.

One more thing I'd like to add is that I think one of the reasons that palms don't come in MMA so much is simply that MMA schools don't train them so much if at all. It makes a huge difference to the health of your knuckles even wearing 4 oz MMA gloves between wearing nothing. So most MMA techs have caused over-reliance on fists (over-reliance seen from a reality perspective - obviously it suits the sport).

Although I can only think of Bas Rutten in MMA and a few other Pancreas guys who have made palms good, he really did show how effective good palms could be in a fight, if trained for.

Edit: oh yeah, plus sumo palms. Nobody likes to give sumo credit but I've yet to see a quality sumo guy in mixed competition letting rip with their palms. I'm quite sure they could mess up a few pro fighters!

[stuartm]

A small but potentiallty important point is that in a street fight a palm looks far more innocuous than a punch, and in the age of CCTV and litigation, it might be your saviour when it comes to facing a charge ;)

[TaichiMantis]

A small but potentiallty important point is that in a street fight a palm looks far more innocuous than a punch, and in the age of CCTV and litigation, it might be your saviour when it comes to facing a charge ;)

LOL! we were just talking about that in class last night...and how many people think tai chi is a nice excercise. Say Some guy get's in your face, you put your palms up like you give up and....quick twist! A nice little palm strike/shove into the wall/car behind him and you're good to go....

...well, ok...providing he doesn't have 10 friends who then jump you. :p

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey eadragon21,
When I punch, I model it after my open hand strike.
If you use the wall bag for punching, try (if you haven't already) hitting it with a palm stike.
Your open hand has essentially no tension in it. Therefore you can get (alot of time) more power coming from it than a closed fist with tension.
Your hand can be heavier when opened, it can react quicker, penetrate further ...

J

[anerlich]

A small but potentiallty important point is that in a street fight a palm looks far more innocuous than a punch, and in the age of CCTV and litigation, it might be your saviour when it comes to facing a charge

My first instructor expounded on this to the class of police he used to teach back in the late 1970s. Hopefully, the witnesses or cameras see you pushing the person away rather than slamming a palm into their face.

[_William_]

Hey Mat, could you briefly describe what how a sumo wrestler does a palm strike? Thanks in advance

[Liddel]

Anybody see early UFC (pssibly UFC 2 or 3) Kempo man Keith Hackney palmed a very tall, very fat man in the face, which was the only hit that dropped the big man. Kicking his legs and belly did nothing. Good old Palm strike :)
He susequently broke his hand hitting the guys head on the ground with a hammer fist over and over and over again.

I like punches to the body and prefer to use palms to the head.
Its more ergonomic for me. The chin fits right in the center of my palm and i feel i can deliver more force and inch power making the action more sharpe and effective.
Ive drawn blood from a training partners nose a few times just by accident beacause of the way the nose fits in my vertical palm and with the use of minimal force and inch power.
It also allows for a quicker follow up eye gouge if in a very dangerous situation.
:D
I certainly agree with stuart
"in a street fight a palm looks far more innocuous than a punch, and in the age of CCTV and litigation, it might be your saviour when it comes to facing a charge "

[snakebyte8]

I saw that, the guy was so tall it was more of an overhand slap to the face from what I recall. Knocked him flat on his arse! Wasnt the victim a sumo guy?

[SevenStar]

He susequently broke his hand hitting the guys head on the ground with a hammer fist over and over and over again.



Naturally. That isn't a very strong part of the hand. He woulda been better off using a proper fist to GnP him.

[n.mitch]

I think the palm strike is a safer option, you are less likely to cut your palm on someone teeth, you see some nasty knucle cuts or knuckles being pushed half way down the hand of a person who hasn't punched properly or broken hands from punching.
Also with so many disease out there transmitted from blood, its not a good idea to get your knuckles cut by hitting teeth (it hurts too).
You could maybe argue that a punch can inflict more damage on your opponent but a what risks to yourself.

[Stevo]

I agree with what everyone else has said. Another couple of points off the top of my head:

Even though our training should have given us strong wrists that shouldn't buckle, due to Murphy's Law, it can happen with a fist, but there's no risk of the wrist buckling with a palm.

Sometimes the extra inch or so of reach offered by a fist compared to a palm might be useful.

[viper]

i think that a palm is a good option given that more moving parts higher risk of damage so the that law stipulates that a palm has less moving parts in it when u think about it also i find when hit by a palm in the head it does lesser external damage but tends to knock people about more internally which alot of martial arts focus on in thehigher levels internal injury this shows a direct coralation with the idea of palms more used in higher levels to as said previsly depends on the situation to though if the hand is open leave it open if its closed maybe keep it closed its up to the user

[SevenStar]

i think that a palm is a good option given that more moving parts higher risk of damage so the that law stipulates that a palm has less moving parts in it when u think about it also i find when hit by a palm in the head it does lesser external damage but tends to knock people about more internally which alot of martial arts focus on in thehigher levels internal injury this shows a direct coralation with the idea of palms more used in higher levels to as said previsly depends on the situation to though if the hand is open leave it open if its closed maybe keep it closed its up to the user


A fist doesn't knock someone out "internally"? a hook punch to the jaw strikes a bundle of nerves in that area and also the jolt of the head turning makes the brain rattle around in the skull, resulting in a KO. How much more "internal" is there?

[viper]

yeah but in the long term the really high up levels ull be surprised im saying i dont disagree but i just see things different to u

[CFT]

I remember reading a short article by one of Ip Chun's students (or maybe a grand-student). He asked the question why it is called Wing Chun Kuen when, for example in Siu Nim Tau you only perform a punch 5 times: 2 at beginning and 3 chain punches at the end. There seem to be more palm and finger strike techniques in the forms.

[shog]

I agree with those that state more can be done with the open palm. However, the palms generally have to be conditioned in some way, the same as conditioning the knuckles for when striking with the fist.

Following that, I prefer the vertical snapping fist, followed by the standard vertical punch, then backfist (mostly a setup strike), then regular reverse punch on rare occasion, save for free sparring.

Though traditionally a karateka, I too have transitioned more to basic sweeps, striking to specific points, using elbows, forearms, knees, and especially the open palm strike over the past 25 years. I enjoy the whole range of weapons that the upper limbs provide.

My shoulders not longer respect the reverse punch as they used to. I have in many ways made the transformation from being a karate practitioner to that of a kung fu practitioner. One could say I am simply a follower of budo and wushu.

It is better to go with the flow, than to move like play-dough.

:)

[CFT]

and how did Yip Chun reply?It was not a question to Ip Chun, just a kind of editorial type of article.

Anyway, Wing Chun Kuen is not just developed through the forms.

[shog]

Let's just say that mid-section is neck down to naval.

Perhaps an uppercut to the solar-plexus, or a vertical punch straight in using either anjing or fajing (if you are able)...Or side elbow strike.

Knee to kidney, or strike the kidney with an elbow or punch.

This is harder area to get to, since it is assumed a person knows enough footwork and center-line principles to either move the opponent or get their own body in position.

Knee to ribcage above heart or lungs.

One could also break a collar bone if one so chooses with a hammerfist.

There are also a slew of pressure points in which to choose from as well.

:)

There are some starters...