CLF History

[Sow Choy]

History is history...

I like everyone enjoy hearing about history... But it is hard to know what really is fact as many hear have stated...

I once had to write an article about CLF history in I think it was Journal of Asian Martial Arts or something like that, I was asked to do a history piece... I of course asked my sifu 1st, he provided me with a lot of written material from the past from many sources...

I also checked the websites too... And I found contradiction after contradiction... I also found stories you would only read in a comic book...

So seeing this division and the many versions I realised that I have to be carefull what I write... CLF has given me so much, I don't wanna pay her back by ruining her name and reputation...

So I presented the article with the many versions and stories of CLF, paying respect of course to Chan Heung, the founder and to the people who helped him spread and add to the style, namely Jeung Hung Sing and Taam Sam...

My point is... When presenting history, you can only present what we have read or heard... Is that fact? Maybe, maybe not... But we can discuss it...

The style is what we have, our gift from the past masters... We are lucky enough to have wondered in to this family...

So I know many of you are tired of history debates... But if you can discuss without being emotional or claiming to have the facts... Then we can hear all the maybes and what ifs... and discuss the possibilities... Because ultimately I think history is a story used to inspire...

That is why many of us enjoy the old Shaw Bros. movies... many are based on legends... But its the story, the struggle many of us enjoy...

Joe

[extrajoseph]

Hi Joe,

Here are some definitions to make things clearer:

History: Chronology of people and events since humans have kept written records.
Folklore: Oral traditions passed down informally over time within a group.
Legend: A story about mythical or supernatural beings or events.
Myth: A fictional story to explain the origin of some person, place or thing.

Only history is based on human records, and there are plenty of them in the CLF archive, all you have to do is to get hold of them and be able to read Chinese!

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/dulihandbu/qianyan.htm

Take care,

EJ

[Sow Choy]

Yes Joseph...

I am quite aware of the definitions as well as the documents and website...

Joe

[extrajoseph]

Hi Joe,

That is good, then why the confusion?

2 or 3 hundred years is not that long, we have a standardised written language for nearly 2,000 years.

Could it be there is vested interests in changing and denying history?

Something to think about.

Cheers,

EJ

[iron_silk]

isn't history written by the victor?

:D

[Sow Choy]

Joseph...

I agree, I think maybe some are trying to change things around... But who? And for what purpose though? It doesn't really affect me so I am not sure why... You seem to know more of this than I...

Joe

[Sow Choy]

Also,

I am not confused... Maybe some others are? Maybe the ones who think they are so correct?

And records are just written documents, yes? So does paper make it more official, perhaps... Perhaps those records are right? Perhaps wrong? The viewer will judge...

It does not make a difference to me, I will leave the history to the people who enjoy it most...

I for one and happy being a CLF stylist and not someone promoting the history on websites and such... But that is my choice...

Take care.

Joe

[extrajoseph]

Hi Joe,

Yes, that is your choice, not to be bothered by history.

I would not have bothered too, if you have not started a new thread about history.

Its kinda funny, we keep being bothered so we would not be bothered being bothered by history!

:D

[Sow Choy]

Hee hee,

yes joseph...

Trying to settle people down a bit...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Joseph (can't call you sisuk or Kennyfist will think I am trying to steal your kung fu :D ):

Don't you feel that history has a bit more credibility if a disinterested 3rd party does the fact finding. What I mean and with no disrespect to the Chan Family, but everything comes from the Chan Yiu Chi documents. This information will it could be 100% accurate you don't think things are embelished a bit. Coming from an Italian family I can tell you a story about when the Black Hand supposedly came for my Great Grandfather Stefano and my Great Grandma supposedly took a rifle from one of the goons and beat the ever loving ****e out of him and they left. This is the story that has been passed on through my family. Do I believe it "no", my Great Grandmother was a small woman so I am sure the story has changed over the years to make her look better.

You see where I am going with this. In terms of my own Grandfather I grew up close with him and my father and I couldn't tell you his life story with accuracy. Things I could tell you would come from stories.

I believe that the Chan Family records have a lot of accurate information but I don't think its the Bible. Had it been written by Chan Hueng himself or even documented by a 1st generation student like Chan Koon Pak, Chan On Pak, Jeurng Yim or Lung Gee Choy it would carry even more weight since it would be 1 generation removed not 2.

That is why I firmly believe the real truth always lies somewhere in the middle. Some people have agendas and others don't, but you can never be 100% certain about anything except we are all going to die at some time.

[extrajoseph]

CLFNole,

No, not everything came down through Chan Yiu-Chi only! See the webpage I quoted earlier, the photos showed collections of notes not only by Chan Yiu-Chi but also by Chan Yik-Yiu and Chan Wah-San, they are CLF elders from Sun Hui and King Mui.

http://www.choyleefut.com.cn/chinese/dulihandbu/qianyan.htm

You should get your wife to translate some of the pages for you, they showed most of the names used in our forms in the Kuen Po.

If you go to Kong Mun or Guangzhou, then you will have a lot more to look at.

What I don't understand is why your lineage or Frank's lineage don't have any collection of notes passed down by your sifu and sigungs? Even my old man has a bag full of them.

Also, Chan Heung's descendants are still with us, and Jeong Yim village is still there with his clansmen available for interviews. Besides the latest research was not done by anyone from King Mui but by a historian from the county museum.

What did Futsan produced? Nothing but hearsays and Chui Kwoong Yuan's story is getting more and more ridiculous, without any evidence or historical research to back up his "oral transmissions".

Sure, we could never get to know all the truth, but who founded CLF is very clear and if Frank or Chui wants to change history, then they should be the ones who should come up with the evidence to support their claim, otherwise the status quote remains.

I am not sue what you mean by the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Either Jeong Yim did or did not co-created or co-found CLF, it is a simple yes or not question.

As for him made Futsan Branch great and that he also has helped Chan Heung made CLF great, there is no doubts about it. He was one of the best we had.

As for people wanting to make Futsan a separate branch and put him at the head of it, go for it! But they don't have to step on Chan Heung to do their job, do they?

You may not be able to tell your grandfather's story accurately or in details but you know he is your grandfather, and not someone else is your grandfather. It is at this level of the truth that we are talking about. Nothing deep or tricky at all.

EJ

[CLFNole]

I didn't know there were other sources of the history. I am not disclaiming the founder because like I said earlier in this thread or another (I am starting to lose track) I believe Chan Hueng was the founder. I look at Jeurng Yim as a top student and founder of the hung sing branch and Tam Sam the founder of the buk sing branch.

I see CLF as 1 family, somewhat disfunctional at the moment, but 1 family nonetheless.

The things I have some trouble with are things like the tiger story and the number of forms that were supposedly created by Chan Hueng. Even the number of forms changed over the years. These are the only things I question.

[extrajoseph]

Joseph...

I agree, I think maybe some are trying to change things around... Butwho? And for what purpose though? It doesn't really affect me so I am not sure why... You seem to know more of this than I...

Joe
Hi Joe,

I thought I made it very clear my point of view on who wanted to change the history of CLF and why.

During the 60s, it was the Leftists in Hong Kong who wanted to change history, so they can weaken the influence of the Hung Sing members who were mostly Nationalists. They fled the Communists and were seen as Rightists. These people did it for political reasons.

In the last few years, it was Futsan who wanted to change history, so they can make Futsan the birthplace of CLF and for that, they attempted to make Jeong Yim the co-founder and not only being kicked out and had to study with GGM. These people did it for financial reasons.

When we can see the motives, history becomes much clearer.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

The things I have some trouble with are things like the tiger story and the number of forms that were supposedly created by Chan Hueng. Even the number of forms changed over the years. These are the only things I question.

Hi CLFNole,

In that case we see things in the same light as far as the broad scope of history is concerned. These things you mentioned above are not important to me. I was never into a large number of forms any way. As for the tiger….

:D

[CLFNole]

As far as having documents within our lineage, I think there are some in Hong Kong. I remember you commenting on my sihing/sisuks website
www.kung-fu.hk.st having some Chan Family documentation. The site is in Chinese and I can never get my wife to sit down and translate things for me, all I get is "lei ho ma fahn".

By the way I don't think I ever tried to steal any kung fu from you like Kennyfist implied. I have always asked a lot of questions (used to drive sifu nuts) because I have a thirst for knowledge and always look to better myself and my kung fu.

Anyway, thanks for all your insight.

Lance

[extrajoseph]

Hi Lance,

No one is stealing from anyone, we are CLF! You should hear what my partner says about me when she digs her little index finger into my thick forehead:

"lei ho ho ho ma fahn ahhh!".

:D

[Eddie]

I’m not to sure about the history of CLF, but I do know a bit of history being changed for political or financial gain. Not everything is so well documented, and then again, documents can be forged or changed. I too wonder about the validity of the Chan Family claims, but in the same breath I can understand and relate to EJ’s comments on why history was changed (politics).

Personally, I find it very difficult to differentiate between History, Folklore, Legend and Myth, as I feel that all of these are always included in what we perceive as the true history of some event. Its amazing how much power politicians can have.

I too would be interested in such an article you suggested Joe, so please keep my updated.