Martial arts is not a sport 01

[ShaolinFighter]

from another forum (http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...oto=nextnewest) :

Written by Tadzio Goldgewicht

The Chinese Martial arts were created not as a way to cultivate the spirit. They were created as a way to total efficiency in a real combat situation, therefore, radically differing from what we know as "sport". Things like the term "martial sport" are nothing but a dream; and a very bad one in fact. This conception of "martial sport" can never exist. Or you practice a martial art or you practice a sport. Both (martial arts and sports) are totally opposite in their paths and one could never find a middle term between them. Any attempt to promote a certain sport "taste" to the martial arts will end, as ends nowadays, in putting the glorious past that we have to shame.

Tui shou (pushing hands) competitions, forms (with weapons or not), fighting tournaments. They are not valuable for the true martial artist.
In a way, they do prepare the fighter to a new level of mind developing, in the sense that you have to learn how to control your emotions in order to be succesful in fighting tournaments. But this could very well be achieved without it.

The person who seriously practices a martial art, is not interested in whether or not his/her movements will look pretty or not; is not interested in reaching a certain state of mind (not in a primary plan) like Buddahood or whatever; he/she knows that this are not the primary points. This person knows that instead of pretty movements, he is searching for efficient movements in a real combat situation, and also knows that in order to be efficient in combat his body has to be healthy, because without a healthy body, he can not even train.

Today, there are almost any kind of tournaments a person might imagine, for almost every martial art, and these tournaments are based upon rules that restrict the use of techniques so that the athletes could maintain their physical health. Also, different from centuries ago, our society is more organized. Fighting is not so common anymore, unless you are a bodyguard or something similar. The martial arts are not necessary to keep you alive anymore. But, in the other hand, our Western society is becoming more and more violent and some aspects from the past societies are coming back again with full power. Today, we once more have this feeling that to know an efficient method of self-defense could make a difference in our lives. So in our modern society, these tournaments are used to measure a person's progress in a certain martial art. People also use this tournaments as a kind of thermometer that would indicate how well the athlete would do in a real fight. But exactly because of its rules and limitations, a tournament is far, very far of putting someone close to a real combat situation. No matter how many rules you have (some claim to have few); by the moment you have rules, it's not free fighting anymore.

What usually happens is that people begin to train for the tournament (with its restrictions) and not having in mind a real fight. Certain principles adopted for real fights just can't be used in tournaments as:

1 - The longer you stay in a fight, the more dangerous it is for you.
2 - Look for the main targets as throat, knees, groins, eyes etc.
3 - Show no mercy - no matter how violent it might seem, strike him hard, or else he will strike you first.

As we can see by some of the principles outlined above, they can never be used in a competition. Plus, there is the psychological factor, that is of the utmost importance in a real fight. In a competition there are doctors, the staff, the judge, weight divisions and timed rounds. When people are fighting in a competition, they are sure that in case they are knocked-down or in case they can't match the opponent, the judge will step in and stop the fight; then the doctor will come and decide if he has conditions to go back and fight more. On the streets, in a real fight, this is not the reality. Street fights are not fair; bottles, chairs, knives and even the hard sidewalk floor could (and believe me would) be used against the opponent. So the mind set is totally different, for in a tournament you might want to take your opponent down fast, but you have restrictions, and if you can't take him down, the worse thing that can happen is that you might be knocked unconscious; after a while you will be safe at home again. On the streets you also want to take the opponent down fast, but you will do whatever you have to do in order to win; anything is permitted, for you know if you can't take him down, he will take you down first, and maybe, if he's a bad guy, you won't be walking again, or worse.

One needs then the warrior mind set; like a soldier. Use whatever you can; do not hesitate. Be fast and when it's over just walk away, because when your are fighting for your life, there is no place for high kicks to the head and other ridiculous techniques.

Some will then argue that if not by the rules many people would die in these competitions. That's true. But the "testing field" of a true martial art will never be a tournament, but the hard floor of the streets, where he has nothing but his skills to depend on.

Today we also have the NHB kind of competition. Although this was pretty normal in Brazil, it's something relatively new in the USA. This tournaments show a different level of reality and they are definitely to be chosen instead of the rest we have out there. But it is necessary to say that although the are more "realistic", they are not real at all. Not real in the sense that the winner of these tournaments, might no be the winner in a real fight, just because of the rules that are used in it. But we really have to admit that NHB competitions are presenting us to more and more very good fighters.

Nowadays is China, this kind of competition has become very famous. Here it is called San Da, that means "to break-up by beating". This is the new kind of Wu Shu (Chinese martial arts) created by the government after 1949. It uses mainly Boxing punching techniques , Tae-kwon-do kicks and Chinese Shuai Jiao (wrestling) movements. What happens is that all the competitors, no matter which Gong Fu style they practice, fight all the same. This aspect itself is already bad, and to make things worse, what they fight doesn't look like Gong Fu at all; looks like Thai Boxing. Bad Thai Boxing.

So any intelligent person (even a not very intelligent one) knows that each style of Gong Fu has different techniques, different ways to generate power and different strategies to fight. So they go to say, a Xing Yi school. Then they train every day San Ti Shi, the 5 elements, 12 animals, fighting techniques and forms, study how to generate power in a very unique way. And then they go to a tournament and fight, like, Thai boxers. They are, at least, not being honest . Because if you learn a style of Gong Fu with unique characteristics but fight like a Thai boxer or a Kick boxer, you'd better sign up in a Thai box school; you will save a lot of time training something you never use. Some so called "Gong Fu schools" that have home pages on the Net even show pictures of its teachers or students that placed first or second in this kind of San Da (also called San Shou) tournaments.
These kind of tournaments are good only to show people what real Gong Fu is not, and people who train to fight in these tournaments, like pseudo-kick boxers, are only contributing for the extinction of the orthodox systems of Chinese martial arts. (Because I don't want to be unfair, I want to say that are still some teachers out there that teach their fighters (specially in Kuo Shu) how to fight real Gong Fu and real Xing Yi.). Stop for a while and try to picture masters from the past, such as Guo Yun Shen, Che Yi Zhai, Yang Cheng Fu, Gu Ru Zhang. Try to imagine them in a fight. Would they fight like Thai boxers Would they use Western boxing techniques and round kicks to the head Would this movements work on the streets

I am not saying here that the athletes that enter into this kind of tournaments are not tough at all. They are very good fighters, tough guys and we have to admit that they have guts to go up there and fight; that's for sure. But another thing is for sure: what they are doing is not Gong Fu, and they are more than often not prepared for a real fight. What is the sense about saying you won a tournament with rules With weigh divisions What is the sense in saying that you won a fight against a guy from your weight category That's nothing. Should I spend years in a school just to be able to handle someone of my weight A martial art should give you tools to handle a stronger and bigger opponent. Or else, why practice at all

[ShaolinFighter]

So, people wanted to get traditional Gong Fu and make competitions. Because Gong Fu is a war art, they had to make a decision: to adapt the Gong Fu, change it in order to fit the "competition way", or not to make competitions at all. They decided to change the Gong Fu they have learned to fit tournaments. Wrong decision, if you ask me. So we came to a point where many practitioners don't know that what people call Gong Fu today, is an aberration, something different from orthodox Gong Fu. They think this is the real deal, because they have never seen people fight in an orthodox way. Today, Gong Fu is a joke between serious fighters. NHB fighters laugh about Chinese Gong Fu, because of what they see in tournaments. Take one of this San Da tournament winners to China and let them have a go with orthodox people, or even with elite soldiers from the army.

That's why, in a sense, I very much admire some people from Yong Chun (Wing Chun) They know that there can't be a Gong Fu competition with rules. Of course a lot of "wannabes" could hide themselves under this "no competition" concept, but there are a lot of people out there who understand the true essence of Gong Fu.

Of course people who have the point of view I am defending here might be accused of being "barbarians" or of not understanding the essence of Chinese Gong Fu and so on. A lot of people have different opinions then me, and I am willing to talk to them, and I understand the critics. But like in the past, in the old China, and even today in some provinces, the old discussion method is still the best. Two man, face to face, testing their skills. To much talking about Gong Fu is not good. Gong Fu is to be trained and not to be talked about. Just don't expect me to wear gloves and fight like a Thai boxer. No one is invincible. I might lose, you might lose, everybody loses. But losing is being honest to the art you practice, and most importantly, being honest to yourself. For then, even if you lose, you win.

[ChinoXL]

At first I was like what da !@#$ then I read your article and I realized you are correct. I'm a typical ABC that's brought into the media thinking muay thai and bjj is the god-like combo; well I was stupid and that was a few months ago. Then I took a trip to China and ended up around gong zhou for a good month. Within that month I learned alot where I met army officials and sparred them; and they kept saying how they don't spar for fun like how "we" americans do, I thought it was a funny joke at first seeing that they're trying to defend themselves then when we really started sparring I literally had to defend punches and kicks to my nuts and I was not prepared at all. Then I met cops who learnt "come la" or is it "kum-la" whatever but that's how you say it in chinese.. and it's a grappling style and because I was a little c0cky and edgar to show of the bjj I was messing with one of the guys in the club since we were drunk talkin about east vs west. Then he grabbed me and naturally I'm just playing along having the superior position or holding his hands to set myself up for something; well this guys hand keeps making this tiger//eagle claw thing and stops at my nuts 3x times.. in other words showing me that he coulda killed my babies :( By the way the army officials and the officers are all my family friends therefore they didn't really kill me. And you're right kung fu don't play around well the "REAL" kung fu literally goes for the eyes, nuts, and neck.. thats why I came to respect kung-fu so much more and i'm going to have my first lessons tormorrow :D so excited.. yeah but just a little story to support ShaolinFighter because I honestily believe what he said is true since I experienced

[David Jamieson]

There's certainly nothing wrong with sportification of combat.

Martial arts do have within them very practical fighting teachings.

It is not in my opinion wrong to make sport of that which can be made sport of.
It gives the young an outlet and venue to validate their skills development while continuing to acquire understandingh of martial art.

It is serious practice no matter what. Frankly, the practice needs to be done with mindfulness and intention. Even if one is practicing for gladiatorial reasons, it doesn't make him any less of a martial artist, in fact, the fire he tests his mettle in often makes him more of a martial artist.

War, combat, strategy and tactics are expressed through sportive activities since the beginning of sport! This aspect helps with the progression.

[GeneChing]

That is some horrible research to propound an opinion. First of all, "to break-up by beating" is a really funky translation of sanda. The first definition of san is 'loose' as in loose from forms. The second is 'scattered' as in scattered techniques. The third is 'break up, disperse' - not sure where the 'by' comes in, that really changes the interpretation. But that's sort of a quibbly point.

The real problem in the old sport vs. martial arts discussion is that it's about 2 to 4 centuries late. Any serious researcher realizes the rise of the sport form of martial disciplines, as well as the whole notion of internal cultivation - the art in martial arts, if you will - happens mostly as a result of the rise of firearms over cold arms. Traditional warrior skills became obsolete, so they had to evolve to stay extant. The best discussion of this transition is by G. Cameron Hurst, in his scholarly work, Armed Martial Arts of Japan: Swordsmanship and Archery (http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300116748). I highly recommend that read before making any assertions about this subject.

[ShaolinFighter]

Sorry if this was missunderstood but I didn't write this article, I just found it in another forum and thought you could be interested in, too.

This article is written by Tadzio Goldgewicht, I don't know him personally but he writes really interesting articles on www.xingyiquan.org which is his site.

[SimonM]

Nowadays is China, this kind of competition has become very famous. Here it is called San Da, that means "to break-up by beating".

<snip>

These kind of tournaments are good only to show people what real Gong Fu is not, and people who train to fight in these tournaments, like pseudo-kick boxers, are only contributing for the extinction of the orthodox systems of Chinese martial arts.

Actually testing your techniques against a resisting opponent is an essential part of becoming a fighter.

Unless you are advocating going out and picking random fights with people (I hope not since I was going to suggest going out for drinks the next time I swung through Taiyuan and I don't like mixing brawlin' and drinkin' - you live there don't you Tadzio) there is not really any way to do this except for San Da / NHB / what have you.

Now I'll agree that the inclusion of rules create a uniformity of combat style and applicable strike set that don't necessarily reflect the standard tools of any given traditional fighting style but I'll repeat:

If San Da is bad for traditional arts what would you replace it with. Forms just are not enough.

Edit: Sorry, I thought YOU were Tadzio. He lives near me but I haven't had a chance to meet with him yet.