12 Characters Principle Grouping

[mantis108]

On the other thread about Gou Lou Cai by Oso, he asked the following questions. I don't want to hijack that thread so I open a different thread. First a recap:


ok, so...what is everyone's opinion of the formation of the 12 key words into their recognized groupings?

Here's an old reply to a friend on my forum about the 12 Characters grouping:

<<<Now, there is a straightly personal reason why this is important is to me. The 12 characters that of Taiji/Meihwa mantis IMHO can be seen as 6 and a half principles/theory that of Weng Chun. We have Zhan Nian, Bang Tie, Lai Jiao, Shun Song, Ti Na, and Feng Bi, a total of 6 pairs and the half is the Shan of Shan Zhuan. The Shan is almost equivalent of Lau (leaking). Shan implies shen fa and agile footwook this is a very important trait of northern style (ie Nothern legs). Lau on the other hand is more about encountering immovable object (implies solid stance of southern fist) and being flexible. It is this half point that makes the difference. Yet, the most interesting of all about 12 Characters and 6 and a half theories is that they both were once principles of staff or long pole fighting. Coincident? I think that might just be some connections between this. I think the answer lies in General Yue Dayou who was the mentor of General Qi. He taught Shaolin monk as well as the military staff fighting. So northern legs and southern fists, are they really that far apart or is it really that they are really that much closer than we generally believe?>>>

some quick points:

1) I see the pairing of the 12 keywords as the pairing of the 12 regular meridians. For each Yin meridian you will find a matching Yang meridian.

2) Shan Zhuan Teng Nuo (dodge, Deceive, Leap, and shift) concept is also very important IMHO in the mantis forumlation. So personally, I would say six and half concept is important to my mantis.

3) Gou, Lou, and Cai go under the Feng Bi in my grouping.

4) With this Six and A Half Point concept, I believe we could even go to the ground range without much difficulty with mantis.

5) Weng Chun (Yong Chun) is a style that GM Chiu came across in Macao. It is through the Weng Chun style that we have the wooden dummy in CCK TCPM.


It seems that if the 12 keywords weren't meant to be analyzed separately, then they wouldn't have come to be called '12 keywords' but, what, like '6 key words'

Personally, you sure can analyze them individually. It's like an amputated person missing a limb. There is distrution to his meridian system. He may not be dying but he's certainly not going to be functioning very well relative to "normal" standard. So the same analogy applies here. Take the 12 keys words apart and see how well will your mantis function.


'gou lou cai' is grouped as one thing
'gua' is usually looked at alone, right?
all the others are generally paired in every iteration i've read....which isn't many.

7 Star has it's own believe system and experience. They can make things work through their own understanding. I believe we should respect that and leave it at that. The important thing is that we don't lose the focus of what the priority and signifcance of the material that is received from our teachers.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

Some 12 Character versions:

Brendan Lai (from Inside Kung Fu 02-80)
1. Ou
2. Lou
3. Tsoi
4. Kwa
5-6. Dil & Jin
7-8. Bung & Dar (da/dah)
9-10. Jim & Lim
11-12. Tib & Kwou
*notes the first 3 items = the 1,2,3 move as well as the pairings as joint concepts.

Yuan Wen-Cai (Yen Men Gai), from Secrets of Kung Fu
1. Nian
2. Sticking
3. Adhering
4. Leaning
5. Holding in the mouth (Dil)
6. Advancing
7. Jumping
8. Beating
9. Hooking
10. Dragging
11. Trampling
12. Suspending

Jon Funk (from Inside Kung Fu 02-84)
1. Kou
2. Lou
3. Kwa
4. T’sai
5. Tiao
6. Chin
7. Peng (Bung)
8. Ta
9. Chan
10. Nien
11. Tieh
12. K’au
*notes the usage of 1,2,3 character principles as the 1,2,3 move.

Hao Hen Lu (unreferenced source)
1. Zhan
2. Nian
3. Bang (Bung)
4. Tei
5. Lai
6. Jiao
7. Shun
8. Song
9. Ti
10. Na
11. Feng
12. Bi

Unverified Author from the Brendan Lai Institute of Kung Fu- Brazil website;
1. Ngou
2. Lou
3. T’sai
4. Kwa
5-6. Diew & Jhin
7-8. Diew & Da
9-10. Jimm & Neem
11-12. Tiph & K’ao
*notes the first 3 items as a combo move as well as the pairings as joint concepts.


***
Interesting groupings.
Glad you guys brought this up; It bears further investigating (at least for me) as to the grouping characteristics.

Best Wishes,
~BTL

***
Many Thanks to Sibak Ishii for the bulk of the information presented here;
Gone but still influential. :)

[Oso]

great set of lists BTL




I regret only being able to exchange a couple of emails w/ Eric sometime around 99/00. He was one of the very first people in this big world of mantis to extend a greeting to me...xie xie...

[-N-]

*notes the first 3 items = the 1,2,3 move [...]BTL,

Note that Eric takes a very literal approach in this particular explanation, whereas Sifu Lai's teaching was more conceptually based. From memory, even Sifu Lai's article was more literal compared to his teaching in class.

So, to reuse an example I've given before, at the advanced level, Fan Che can be executed according to Ou Lou Tsai concept, as per Sifu Lai.

To go further, you can follow up with Luk Luk to kwa. You engage in the manner of dieu jeun, and deal with any countering motions in the manner of jim nim, you can tip kau bung da to finish him off now that you are in close.

For us, it is the combination of the 12 character ideas which makes it Mantis. As individual ideas... well, I don't know.

N.

[BeiTangLang]

N, Indeed so. I only took the keywords & not the explainations from the articles. I should have added this info as well; My bad.

I'm glad you brought up the usage vs the "by the book" techniques. The whole reason they are called "12 principles" rather than the "12 techniques".
~BTL

[Oso]

FTR, I replied to this post in length but my work computer friggin froze when I hit 'submit'...the muse was upon me them...hopefully i will be able to recreate...


On the other thread about Gou Lou Cai by Oso, he asked the following questions. I don't want to hijack that thread so I open a different thread. First a recap:



Here's an old reply to a friend on my forum about the 12 Characters grouping:

<<<Now, there is a straightly personal reason why this is important is to me. The 12 characters that of Taiji/Meihwa mantis IMHO can be seen as 6 and a half principles/theory that of Weng Chun. We have Zhan Nian, Bang Tie, Lai Jiao, Shun Song, Ti Na, and Feng Bi, a total of 6 pairs and the half is the Shan of Shan Zhuan. The Shan is almost equivalent of Lau (leaking). Shan implies shen fa and agile footwook this is a very important trait of northern style (ie Nothern legs). Lau on the other hand is more about encountering immovable object (implies solid stance of southern fist) and being flexible. It is this half point that makes the difference. Yet, the most interesting of all about 12 Characters and 6 and a half theories is that they both were once principles of staff or long pole fighting. Coincident? I think that might just be some connections between this. I think the answer lies in General Yue Dayou who was the mentor of General Qi. He taught Shaolin monk as well as the military staff fighting. So northern legs and southern fists, are they really that far apart or is it really that they are really that much closer than we generally believe?>>>

some quick points:

1) I see the pairing of the 12 keywords as the pairing of the 12 regular meridians. For each Yin meridian you will find a matching Yang meridian.

--are you saying that an arbitrary decision was made simply because there were 12 meridians then there should be 12 key words?

--is there a direct correlation between the keywords and the meridians? 'gou' to 'heart'; 'lou' to 'lung' or something?

2) Shan Zhuan Teng Nuo (dodge, Deceive, Leap, and shift) concept is also very important IMHO in the mantis forumlation. So personally, I would say six and half concept is important to my mantis.

3) Gou, Lou, and Cai go under the Feng Bi in my grouping.

4) With this Six and A Half Point concept, I believe we could even go to the ground range without much difficulty with mantis.

I agree completely. Concepts are ideas, not techniques.

5) Weng Chun (Yong Chun) is a style that GM Chiu came across in Macao. It is through the Weng Chun style that we have the wooden dummy in CCK TCPM.



Personally, you sure can analyze them individually. It's like an amputated person missing a limb. There is distrution to his meridian system. He may not be dying but he's certainly not going to be functioning very well relative to "normal" standard. So the same analogy applies here. Take the 12 keys words apart and see how well will your mantis function.

So, it's the specific combination of the 12 into 6 or 6 1/2 concepts that define mantis as mantis versus staff technique?

If so, then the 12 keywords individually aren't mantis at all.




7 Star has it's own believe system and experience. They can make things work through their own understanding. I believe we should respect that and leave it at that. The important thing is that we don't lose the focus of what the priority and signifcance of the material that is received from our teachers.

Indeed. Just to be clear, this is my own curiosity and no reflection of what I've been taught. As I said in the other thread, per Kevin, Shiye Shi doesn't particularly subscribe to a set of 12 keywords.
Mantis108

...........

[Oso]

Luk Luk

dieu jeun

jim nim

tip kau bung da



pardon my ignorance, could you define those terms?

if you want to post the defs in the 'terminology' sticky I'll check there.

sincerely

Oso 'cracker' Melton ;)

[BeiTangLang]

where did that post go??

[mantis108]

Hi Bei Tanglang,

Thanks for sharing the list. I personally owes a lot to Eric. So it's good that he's remembered not only by me but many others.

Hi Oso,


--are you saying that an arbitrary decision was made simply because there were 12 meridians then there should be 12 key words?

First and foremost, it is not IMHO an arbitrary decision at all. There is a deliberate design.

The link between human anatomy and pugilism is a long cultural achievement that is most unique to traditional Chinese martial arts especially Kung Fu. I must stress that I view Kung Fu as a totally independent category of Chinese martial arts from Traditional Wushu (ie Shuai Chiao) and Modern Wushu because of historic evolution and cultural achievement.

Ever Since early Western Han dynasty some two thousand years ago, there has been what I would call an Alpha formula (Yinyang, 4 seasons, 8 nodes, 12 sectors, 24 temporal denomination, etc...) proposed by the Yijing scholars. This was also picked up by Ming dynasty General Qi's mentor General Yu Dayou whose Classic of Sword seemed to have great influences on Mantis' Quanpus.

The Yinyang (Qi), 4 strikes (Da, Ti, Na, shuai), 8 Stances, 12 Characters, etc. are a reflection of the application of the Alpha formula in pugilism. But there is more then meet the eyes. The medical knowledge expounded by the Internal Classics of Yellow Emperor, which also has a close relationship to the Yijing (Classics of Change), is also applied to pugilism. This is why healing is such an important aspect of Kung Fu. I find Mantis is remarkable up front with the medical knowledge than most other system that claim to have medical knowledge IMHO. Mantis most certainly practices what it preaches (if healing is the goal). Personally, that's also the honest atitude about pugilism that is the golden rule of Mantis.


--is there a direct correlation between the keywords and the meridians? 'gou' to 'heart'; 'lou' to 'lung' or something?

I would say it is kind of superficial to just establish such link and call it a day. Wouldn't you? But then I am sure there are people out there that don't do their homework and tell you so. ;) It is IMHO that it goes deeper than that. We should realize that there are different functions to the meridian. They serve as functional components to the body just as the keywords are to the system. Take Gou, Lou, and Cai for example. They are similar to the 3 functions of the meridians in that they take in, letting out and transit (both in and out) - Gou as inward and outward motion (transit), Lou as inward motion (taking in), and Cai as outward motion (letting out). If we do even more homework, we might just be able to associate the techniques with the attributes of the organs.

Now I am not saying that I know it all and I have all the answers but I think we can work along those lines and we will be amazed by the knowledge and the wisdom that are imbedded in the system.


So, it's the specific combination of the 12 into 6 or 6 1/2 concepts that define mantis as mantis versus staff technique?

If so, then the 12 keywords individually aren't mantis at all.

Well, Yin does not exist without Yang. Without Yinyang there will be no Taiji and without Taiji how can there be Wuji (true nature of human being)? So mantis as a traditional Kung Fu system can not be without the 12 Keywords IMHO or there will be no true form of mantis pugilism.


Indeed. Just to be clear, this is my own curiosity and no reflection of what I've been taught. As I said in the other thread, per Kevin, Shiye Shi doesn't particularly subscribe to a set of 12 keywords.

I hear you. We really shouldn't focus only on the finger pointing to the moon. :)

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[phoenixdog]

One thing thing I've always found interesting about the 12 principles is that 1.) few schools teach it as such 2.) if you analyze and speed up any of the versions of the principles in sequence, it is almost always leads to intercepting (hook), crashing (crush),and a violent throw from above.Few martial arts take this tact on fighting.

[-N-]

Some 12 Character versions:

[...]

Interesting groupings.If you look in the WHF books and the LKW books, you will see the same groupings as in the first and last examples you listed.

N.

[BeiTangLang]

If you look in the WHF books and the LKW books, you will see the same groupings as in the first and last examples you listed.

N.

Yup, I noticed that too. ( I didn't type up all the lists that I have :) )

Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with anything that anyone wrote; I was just sharing the info that I have.

It just makes me wonder if a meaning was changed or character written down wrong that made the 3-1 / 4 pairs split rather than just having 6 pairs.
Uneducated me just trying to make my own sense of things.

~BTL

[MightyB]

Is that most, if not all of the 12 keywords are grouped in sequence in the LGY form Sub Say Lo. The individual techniques are grouped into sequences of 3 or 4 moves that are repeated for each of the roads.

[-N-]

Oso wrote:

---
pardon my ignorance, could you define those terms?

if you want to post the defs in the 'terminology' sticky I'll check there.

sincerely

Oso 'cracker' Melton ;)
---

Hi Oso,

You must be a "cracker" because you always crack me up :)

Ok, I'll explain in conceptual terms.

Luk Luk - Upward circling motion that can be used offensively and/or defensively.

Dieu Jeun - Simultaneous intercept and bursting advance.

Jim Nim - Touch and stick to neutralize an opponents motions.

Tip Kau, Bung Da - Quickly close in tight to press up against the opponent and apply pressuring force with leg/hip/forearm/shoulder/chest to strike/control/throw/unbalance him.

So basically what I was saying previously was that you attack with Fan Che in the manner of Ou Lou Tsai method of WHF/BL (small frame, 1 count 3 motions). As the person begins to react, you leak under and circle up with Luk Luk to neutralize. The finesse way to do Luk Luk has a feeling of Jim Nim and threading rather than the more typical crashing. It will be empty until you Kwa to overturn him backwards. Even your Kwa can have a feel of sudden pressuring. The contact of your Luk Luk serves as the Dieu of your Dieu Jeun and you continue exploding in. Use Jim Nim on your way in to neutralize any countermotions that the opponent attempts. Quickly press in tight against him and apply pressuring force to disrupt him. Seize the advantage and use smashing strikes to take him out.

So you can see elements of the 12 keyword groupings in this attack combination. Multiple elements can apply to the same motion. It is all interelated, and applied as such.

My teacher didn't teach from 12 keyword groupings explicitly. Rather, the concepts were contained in the motions and the manner in which he had us practice them. His teaching was more nonverbal than verbal. Often, words can throw off a person and limit his understanding. In a way, it was kind of like our Infinite Monkey Boxing joke. We practice the motions over and over, and once in a while we would do something and our teacher would shout, "That's it! Do it again!" If we finally understood the body feel and were able to whip out the motion consistently, he would laugh and say, "Oh, so now you like Praying Mantis?? Maybe you should learn something else instead!"

N.

[-N-]

Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with anything that anyone wrote; I was just sharing the info that I have.

It just makes me wonder if a meaning was changed or character written down wrong that made the 3-1 / 4 pairs split rather than just having 6 pairs.Hi Bei,

Oh, no prob. I just wanted to give some examples of groupings because someone else wondered about 12 vs. some other number.

Once Mantis comes alive and becomes your own, it is up to you to combine the various elements into your own personal expression of Mantis. The elements have always existed. Even if you look in Mushashi's Book of Five Rings, there are similar ideas. It's just fighting, after all. In the past, someone put together 12 keywords to try to explain to others.

N.

[Oso]

-N-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_cracker

:D


but, I'm glad my fumbling with praying mantis kung fu and the chinese language make you laugh :)

thanks for the definitions.



Luk Luk - Upward circling motion that can be used offensively and/or defensively.

can this be done w/ single as well as double arms?

we have a motion in one of our drills that sounds like this concept. It is basically a quick double gua against a bong, the first one is the initial deflection and the second one sticks and presses upward while the first one continues on to punch to the head from the outside.

Dieu Jeun - Simultaneous intercept and bursting advance.

would this be like the first movement of Bun Bu?

Jim Nim - Touch and stick to neutralize an opponents motions.

ok, that's about 95% of our hand drills.

Tip Kau, Bung Da - Quickly close in tight to press up against the opponent and apply pressuring force with leg/hip/forearm/shoulder/chest to strike/control/throw/unbalance him.

lol, this describes how I teach almost every basic throw we do.

[libingshao]

-N-

I have little to add to the great discussion here. But I have also known of the following:

轆轤 Lulu-Upward single arm circle (with other hand supporting)

到轆轤 Dow Lulu-Downward single arm circle (with other hand supporting).


Libingshao

[Oso]

what plain is the circle of Lu Lu/Luk Luk on in relation to the plane of...say, your shoulders?

I thought it might be like a double gua where the arms are horizontal but it seems like now i see that it is more like two uppercuts??????

or, am i, as usual, way off track here?

[-N-]

Luk Luk - Upward circling motion that can be used offensively and/or defensively.

can this be done w/ single as well as double arms?

we have a motion in one of our drills that sounds like this concept. It is basically a quick double gua against a bong, the first one is the initial deflection and the second one sticks and presses upward while the first one continues on to punch to the head from the outside.That description is more like the setup for Ding Chi Chui as in the second to last line of Bung Bo. Luk Luk is with the lead arm, and the other hand can assist with a gliding intercept.


Dieu Jeun - Simultaneous intercept and bursting advance.

would this be like the first movement of Bun Bu?More like the 3rd move with the left hand parry going into palm strike with advancing footwork. Also in the 5th move with Dieu and jump in to single leg with left punch as the person parries your previous motion.


Jim Nim - Touch and stick to neutralize an opponents motions.

ok, that's about 95% of our hand drills.

Tip Kau, Bung Da - Quickly close in tight to press up against the opponent and apply pressuring force with leg/hip/forearm/shoulder/chest to strike/control/throw/unbalance him.

lol, this describes how I teach almost every basic throw we do.Yep, that's why I think that 12 keywords is not all that big a deal. It's the same old stuff you already know if you have learned from a decent teacher. Some people just think too hard :) I'm not into Mantis Mantras :)

N.

[-N-]

what plain is the circle of Lu Lu/Luk Luk on in relation to the plane of...say, your shoulders?Face the other person, both with right side lead. The other person throws mid to high line punch. Use your left palm to intercept the attack from the outside and gently redirect it off the line. Leak your right arm below his and take over from your left palm. Continue redirecting with with your right arm and shoulder in front. Adjust your redirecting force to tie into his center to unbalance him according to the orientation of his base.

Here's something fun to add. If he escapes with a retreat, stick with your Luk Luk, and turn it into an Ou Lou Tsai attack. Jump in and smash him in the face :)

Ok, one more.... if he somehow avoids that, cross grab his left parrying hand with your left and use waist chop or belly caving punch or anything else you like to the lower lines.

N.

[-N-]

Libingshao,

Yes, that is what I was thinking of :)

N.

[libingshao]

-N-

I agree with your evaluation of Lulu/ Fanche as resources rather than a single specific technique. Your body learns Kungfu and then you can see a great deal of the whole in each of the specifics or vice versa. Then you quit thinking and let your kungfu fight. If you have trained all your motions sufficiently, each feeds and support the others. Coupled with fighting training this creates the combatant who fights like Kung-Fu.

Libingshao

[-N-]

Your body learns Kungfu and then you can see a great deal of the whole in each of the specifics or vice versa. Then you quit thinking and let your kungfu fight. If you have trained all your motions sufficiently, each feeds and support the others. Coupled with fighting training this creates the combatant who fights like Kung-Fu.Sounds good to me! :)

N.

[Oso]

-N-

thanks for the great reply....I'll cogitate and respond more fully tomorrow. :)

[-N-]

Anytime Oso. You're a cool guy for a cracker :)

Ok, j/k. But you are ok in my book.

take care,
N.