Announcement

[MantisifuFW]

I wish to correct a misconception that has caused concern among both Mantis practitioners and other members of the Kung-Fu community. In my articles and bylines printed in IKF, it has been stated that I was a disciple of my late teacher, Sifu Brendan Lai.

As a devoted student and ardent follower of Sifu Lai, it was never my intent to declare anything other than my indebtedness to Lai sifu’s martial tradition in my use of the term disciple. Thus, I wish to make known this distinction.

After discussion on this issue with my Kung-Fu family, we concluded that the term "student" would be most appropriate for my status under Lai Sifu. I will abide by the use of the agreed upon term on my website and in any publications. I thank my Kung-Fu family for all their past, present, and future support.

I will always count myself very fortunate for my time with Sifu Lai.

Sincerely,
Stephen Cottrell

[EarthDragon]

Steve, very admiralble of you. I think sometimes this term is used perhaps a little too much or thrown around alot and possiblely not always the case. This in turn will then tarnish the meaning to a point where after a while mean nothing.

remember many years ago when the word black belt actully meant something?

when you took the years to perfect youself to the BB level it was considered and honnor and a very long road of hard work. then now a days you see the tae kwon do school let out and out poors 40- 6 year black belts 20- 10 year old girls with braces and 7 under 5 infant black belts. what has happened to the honnor?

Often I hear the word Tudi also used a little too much. How many Tudi under one shrfu?

this also goes along with the words Master and Grandmaster. I met a 32 year old Grand master in my travels. I thought hmmmmmmm awful young, wouldnt you agree?

However I commend those who humble themselves for we are all still only students. and for the years put in we are starting to understand just a little. be well

[-N-]

Steve, very admiralble of you.I must agree. I would expect no less from a follower of Sifu Lai.

N.

[EarthDragon]

cute story, about brendan, I was on Grant street eating with a friend when I used to live in chinatown SF. And was talking about kungfu with some of the cooks in the resturant and they were imatatin the mantis and saying how the head cook is a shrfu, but form his monvment I know tere were just having fun thn in walks Brendan and they all point and say he real shrfu. tang lang tang lang. my friend said wow what a elvis hairdue........... brendan smiled and said I can understand you I speak good engrish, and he said with a chuckle I had this style before elvis.We all laughed and I introduced myself and and gave a short bow. it was a good day in SF for me....

[-N-]

Awesome story, ED! :)

Btw, he probably did have that hair before Elvis. There are some pics of Sifu Lai in his teens with that hair :)

N.

[EarthDragon]

-N-, LOL I beleive it! looked like the bullet proof hair spray was used.

I also have a great picture of him my shrfu and Adam posing together in golden gate park.

He also has a great store in the mission district. wondering if it is still there? any one been there or still living in SF with info?

[-N-]

The store relocated down the street. I don't have the new address handy, but it's close enough to the old one that you can find it easily once you're there.

N.

[mantid1]

Do they still sell whole sale to schools? I have been looking for there address for a while now but just assumed they were out of business.

Do they have a web site or any contact info?

Thanks

[-N-]

Mantid1,

I think this is still a current phone number:

415-626-8850

Give them a call and talk to Alvin or Mrs. Lai. They should be there.

N.

[Oso]

if you're talking about BLT supplies they will do wholesale w/ proof of business license and a $300 initial order then $100 min order after that.....I just checked with them myself.

[Young Mantis]

Oso,

BLT Supplies is a separate martial art supply company based in NJ with stores in NYC Chinatown.

Late Sigung Brendan Lai's supply company is still in San Francisco and managed by Mrs. Lai and their son, Alvin. Unfortunately, I do not have their current mailing address either although the number given by -N- should be correct.

YM

[Oso]

my bad...hope I didn't inadvertantly insult anyone....

[mantis108]

Does anyone know Edison was the disciple of whom? How about Einstein or Bill Gates? If any of them were a believer of pedigree, we wouldn't have electricity let alone the internet at all. These men and their creations/invention are great because they are visionary and of ideas not because they have an unbroken lineage and the permission of a master(s).

Personally, I would rather be a self made martial artist then a lineage holder. I respect the wisdom of TCMA particular in the training methodology. I can not however in all honesty support the constituent of TCMA on the whole especially the practice of discipleship in this day and age. I believe Kung Fu is to free the mind rather than enslaving it through education.

I have in my hands, 2 years and 3 quarters of the Mantis Quarterly publication. BTW, it's a great tool of education. I have seen and heard from people who had attended the MQ gathering. These are things that are happening because of one person's vision, inspiration and discipline (with the support of many others who share the same passion) that gave a focus to the art that we all loved.

Believe it or not I am extremely glad that Sifu Cottrell is not a disciple of the late Brendan Lai, and that he is but a "lowly" (no offense there, Steve) student of Tanglang. If he is a disciple and a lineage holder hopeful, I don't think he will be publishing and/or hosting non partisan activities which reach out to and benefit more people than we could imagine. How's that for being selfish and egotistical?

As long as there is power trip in the world, slavery (in any form) is not going anyway soon. It is understandable that others would like to put a leash on you. But to do it on your on accord that's just nuts IMHO. So congratulations, Steve, you have broken the choke collar of pedigree.

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

I don´t want to get in the discussion of desciple**** very deep nor in the Subject of the relationship between Steve Cottrell and Brendan Lai.

Robert: normally I like your Posts and I am impressed about your knowledge. But your comparison now is ... uhm quite stu ... err unlucky ...
You try to compare Tradition and progress esp. scientific progress. It got nothing in comon.
TCMA lives through some traditions like most of our social life is giving to us through traditions. Of course there must be progress but not to the total cost of traditions! You see: problems nowadays within most families (real!) are because they have no traditional family left at all. Kids are on their own, doing whatever they want and noone cares for eachother! Education is a catastrophe because most parents didn´t want to hold to some simple and old traditions!

If the Martial Arts get rid of all the old traditions of teaching and relationships: then there will be soon no Martial Arts anymore!

Thats my honest opinion!

[Oso]

Well said, Robert.

[mantis108]

I always value and appreciate your honest opinions. Also I thank you for all your supports, my friend. Yes, we do not have to agree at every turn. :)

I understand where you are coming from. You are right that we have a lot of problems with the traditional family value almost totally gone. Perhaps TCMA could help people to revisit that value. I am not against that at all. In fact, I think we need to promote that. But I am against the favoritism and elitism that is what discipleship is about IMHO. Personally, I think they are 2 different issues.

It is my intention to emphasize the point that progress in and application of knowledge of any field should not be compromised by any mean regardless of the justification of the imposed limitation providing that common good of the community and society is not at peril. I may be naive to think that connection between transmittion of knowledge and traditional value is trivial. But I will not regret that I have taken the path where I will respectfully cut down illusions of any diety or buddha between the truth and I.

Warm regards

Robert

PS Oso, thanks. I am glad that you see my point.

[Three Harmonies]

As Robert already stated, secrets, special lessons, societies, etc. etc. are all ways of holding something over someone elses head. Silly in the end. Great post Robert.
Jake :)

[-N-]

If he is a disciple and a lineage holder hopeful, I don't think he will be publishing and/or hosting non partisan activities which reach out to and benefit more people than we could imagine.Robert,

The two are not mutually exclusive :)

take care,
N.

[-N-]

Robert,

Slavery, elitism, favoritism, secrecy, and control are not elements of real discipleship. But there are those who misuse the idea of discipleship to rationalize their use of these negative elements.

take care,
N.

[German Bai Lung]

To name the worst posibility doesn´t mean that a thing is in general bad. In fact you can find everytime a dark side (like: if tradition stands over progress, we might have no light but sure milions wouldn´t suffer the A-Bomb). But this will bring us nowhere.

It´s a good and healthy relationship established in TCMA since a long time. And I see no good arguments to finish with terms like students and disciple. Saying this: when I wrote to Sifu Lee I always wrote: your student. I think thats part of a moderate behaviour.
Anyway: for a healthy family it is necessary to have different relationships. There can´t be only number one son and Daughters. A teacher and father needs disciples to depend on. He needs help in many situations. (I know what I am talking about!) This help he can´t get from anyone with the same intention. But how to decide which students will become disciples and which not? Normally it isn´t the best looking female student ... :p It should be the students with the most will to train and to give their heart to the art! Right? Also a noticeable difference in your relationship between your students will give you a way af motivate students to go in your wanted direction. There should be many other motivations too, of course.

Yes, there are a lot of teacher and master and disciples who misuse this structure and this sensible construct of relationsship. Thats bad. And we all should do our best to keep it right and save it for the next generations.
A tradition lost is no longer a tradition. And that didn´t mean it should/could not change. People who knows me, read some post of mine, are aware of the fact, that I didn´t want a rigid MA-System. But changes must be smart and useful and not only because one wants to break out a system. That will bring you nowhere.

Sorry for my bad english some more time. Wish I could write in german so everyone could really understand what I think.

At least one point to Sifu Cottrells announcement: it is not unnecessary to point out the clear relationship between him and Sifu Lai. I can´t understand the one who said: nice, but you mustn´t tell us that, we all are just students!
Yes of course, it´s good to see yourself just as student BUT it is a need of politeness and good relationship between a MA family to be honest with your position inside the family. Not because of the Forum Members, but because of the desciples, elder Brothers and sisters etc. It´s another think to judge that ...

[mantis108]

I mean no disrespect to anyone in this debate. I am not judging what others do. I am just stating the reason that I feel all this discipleship thing is not my cup of tea. That's all. BTW, I am mostly speaking in general terms not necessarily taking into account Sifu Cottrell's case. I believe there should be a Caveat Emptor with TCMA in general. So that those who are going into it will be prepared.

I am sure Sifu Cottrell has his reasons to clarify his relationship with his teacher and the immediate Kung Fu family. It is between him and them. It need not my or anyone else approval. But at the same time since this is on a public forum, I once again being the big mouth as usual (small puppy barks loude that can't be helped ;) )and perhaps inadvertently making the matter worst. For that, I am truely sorry. So I will leave it at that.

If indeed the discipleship works flawlessly in your families, then more power to you. I have no qualms about that. I Just don't feel that it empowers Kung Fu as a whole in the long run.

Sincerely,

Robert

[-N-]

I am sure Sifu Cottrell has his reasons to clarify his relationship with his teacher and the immediate Kung Fu family. It is between him and them. It need not my or anyone else approval.Robert,

Thank you for those thoughts. Really, the immediate family has not made any negative statements regarding Sifu Cottrell. He *is* part of the family, and you know how family things work. Sifu Cottrell has given a clarification. It is nothing more, and nothing less.

Any time a family member, kung fu or otherwise, sees right to take such an action, the entire family is happy for that member and supports him in his action. Clarification and commotion aside, nothing changes Sifu Cottrell's generous contributions to the Mantis community. Nothing changes his dedication to open exchange and sharing of knowledge.

Family matters are just that. Those who know, know. Beyond that, the issue can be considered resolved with no ill will among any of the members.

N.

[MantisCool]

In my opinion. whether Sifu Cottrell is a disciple or just student of Brendan Lai is for Brendan to decide only not anyone else. Has anyone heard Brendan saying that Sifu Cottrell is only a student and not a disciple?

My Sigung, WKH has said whether or not a person has gone through a tea ceremony, they received the same training.

I and my seniors dont call my sifu, "sifu". His name is Wong Pak Chong so we called him "Brother Chong" but the junior all call him Sifu. When we talk to others, he is our sifu and we are his disciples.

[bungbukuen]

I do not no get it? If Sifu Cotrell is not a disciple, then who said he was and why?

[-N-]

Bungbukuen,

It is stated in the announcement, and it is resolved.

N.

[bungbukuen]

Not trying to start any trouble. I know Sifu Cottrell is very active in the community. Call me naive but I still do not understand. If he is not a disciple then why did he say he was?

[mantid1]

If you really want to know send cotrell a pm or email. You could even call. I believe his number is on his web site.

They best way to find out about someone is to ask them personlaly. Not on a forum.

I think this thread has lived out its life and should be locked down.

[lost mantis]

How much of history has been rewritten by "scholars" who committed their own versions to record and by default accomplished an account that survives the actual happennings of truth?

If there was a persistently told "story" without any refute - does it not eventually become part of the popular record?

Elitism and politics aside, I believe the Lai Family is only trying to prevent further confusion.

Sifu Cottrell does a great service in clarifying and I applaud his graciousness in this matter.

To those of you that wonder why its a situation at all-
If I finish a summer course at Stanford University, can I put on my resume that I was a Graduate of Stanford with a Masters in Law? I use an extreme example here to assist comprehension but my point is that we should not hold lightly what effects labels have in perception.

[shirkers1]

To those of you that wonder why its a situation at all-
If I finish a summer course at Stanford University, can I put on my resume that I was a Graduate of Stanford with a Masters in Law? I use an extreme example here to assist comprehension but my point is that we should not hold lightly what effects labels have in perception.


good point..


I can't let robert have all the fun... :D I'll take some of the heat off of him...

I'm probably one of the worst cats at this whole mr this, sifu that, sir yes sir, blah blah blah. My teacher said "I'm not your sifu, or your master or any of that crap" "I do what I do and that's it".. So I call him mike, that may make him look bad in front of others or with me in my habit of calling others by their name make him look bad as well or disrespectful towards those who are use to being called certain things. That is not the intention at all. That is just how we recognize each other. Does that mean I have less respect for him because I call him by his name? I think not. ;) Same goes for any one else....

This whole idea of the student who shows more and gives more should receive more is kind of touchy with me as well. If the student is "capable" of learning then he should be taught. If that student is willing to give his best effort and time then he should be rewarded with nothing less than all of what that teacher has to offer. I mean who is getting their "lessons" for free out there any way? Very few if any.

I compare it to the workplace.. You have people doing less work or the same amount of work getting more money only because they have their tongue up their bosses ass. So that doesn't sit well with me if I'm doing harder work, or more work but refuse to kiss ass I don't get the rewards...

[-N-]

Shirkers1, Lost Mantis,

Might be better to post the "philosophy of discipleship" comments to the great thread started by AmericanMantis:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38635

Somehow that one keeps bumping to the top.

Shirkers1, re your teacher's attitude... actually I know some other WHF line people that are exactly that way.

N.

[Three Harmonies]

My students call me Jake. I call my Xing Yi coach Tim.
My name is
Jake

[BeiTangLang]

seen its purpose,...time to close it.