Secrecy and Discipleship in America [Archive]

Americanmantis

09-30-2005, 01:57 PM

In my 20+ years of training Praying Mantis Kung Fu nothing has been a greater source of frustration than secrecy.

Secrecy, and discipleship, to which it is closly linked, were more relevant in the old days, when money wasn't as much of a factor.

Today, kung fu masters move into the United States eager to "spread their knowledge of martial arts." In English this usually translates seek recognition and financial gain.

This is fine...after all America is the land of opportunity.

The problem arises when even after becoming a disciple, there is no guarantee a student will learn what initially led him to the style.

If the "master" does not feel a student is subservient enough, feels intimidated by his skill, or suddenly feels he is not making enough money, the "master can deny that the student ever trained with him.

This means a student can spend thousands of dollars, and countless hours learning a system only to find himself on the outside looking in.

A "master" may even go to great lengths to discredit a student in a community of like minded "masters" with similar agendas.

The American psyche is filled with brazen images young Caine sitting outside the Shaolin temple showing his dedication to learn, and upon acceptance, irrevocable respect for his master.

I guess they most have deleted the scene where Caine, standing in a horse stance, paying $100 per hour for private instruction, pulls out a wad of green backs from his wallet to hand over to his teacher.

The best kept secret in Praying Mantis Kung Fu...If your master isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

If he insists on traditional training, tell him you want to pay traditional fees.

Dr. George Lisjak

Mortal1

09-30-2005, 02:16 PM

Great post!

I couldn't agree with you more. You spelled out my thoughts completely..

I had the same experiance with my monk teachers. That might be why I had 3 over the last 7 years! The best part is you leave thinking "it must be me". Meanwhile it's them!

mantid1

09-30-2005, 02:17 PM

Great post!

My teacher has told me many times that the secrecy means power. People love to have that control and power over another human.

There have been certain things that I have wanted to learn and my teacher has told me no. Not because of money but because I had not laid down the foundation work needed to do what I asked. I am sure when I do the training that needs to be done I will get what I am ready for when I ask.

I also find it funny how the chinese reading and speaking non chinese hold it over peoples head for power. Just because they can read it they have something over you.

Thank God Mr. 108 is not like this. He translates everything I ask, even the stupid stuff :) Mr. Brazier is very helpfull also.

We cant just say the master who came from China is doing this. The Americans have picked up on it and perfected it.

I feel that the whole kung fu "family" thing is set up for control. You cant go against the "family", especialy not your "father". There are organizations out there other than TCMA using the "family" concept.

I think that most of the secrets of a good style are taught within the first year or so. Most just do not realize it. They are to busy looking for the silver bullet.

Good post. It seems you have had the same experience as many others. We can just let the bad experiences make us stronger.

-N-

09-30-2005, 03:03 PM

There have been certain things that I have wanted to learn and my teacher has told me no. Not because of money but because I had not laid down the foundation work needed to do what I asked.Your teacher values the quality of your education over his own pocketbook.

I am sure when I do the training that needs to be done I will get what I am ready for when I ask.More than likely, your teacher will have been observing you closely, and you will not even have to ask.

I think that most of the secrets of a good style are taught within the first year or so. Most just do not realize it. They are to busy looking for the silver bullet.There is A LOT of truth to that idea. The real secret is that THERE IS NO SECRET.

Those that have little knowledge or are mainly interested in financial gain, hide behind secrecy. They use tradition as their excuse, and give tradition a bad name.

A good traditional teacher practically force feeds the information to his student. As the student improves his understanding, the teacher pushes him even more. Unfortunately, the student can only understand so much at one time. And some, never do understand. Some of the ones that don't understand, will fault secrecy and tradition out of sour grapes.

One of the best things to hear from a student is, "You showed me this 2 years ago, and I thought I knew it. Now I really understand." An even better thing is when the student says, "I thought I knew the first time, then I thought I REALLY understood the second time, but now I see there's even more to it!" At some point, he will learn that he never stops learning :)

N.

-N-

09-30-2005, 03:06 PM

If he insists on traditional training, tell him you want to pay traditional fees.Some very good teachers make this arrangement. The only payment they request is the student's blood and sweat.

N.

Ou Ji

09-30-2005, 04:22 PM

I agree with everything that's been said but what I want top know is Where are the teachers that accept hard work for payment?

All I ever find are the guys that want a lot of money.

I think they're all just looking to get rich.

-N-

09-30-2005, 04:36 PM

mantid1

10-01-2005, 06:32 AM

Ou Ji

I think that there should be a balance. If you find a guy who doesnt require payment in money they obviously have another job or are indepently wealthy.

I teach full time and do not have another job. I have to pay rent, electric, water and everything else that goes along with running a school. I pay for those expensive mats that my students fall on during san shou.

I bought the extras sticks and staffs that my kids practice with because their parents cannot afford one. After they drop them off in their $35,000 SUV.

The ones in their 20's use my san shou gear because they cant afford it. Just before they walk out of the school in the $50 tennis shoes and listen to one of their 75 $20 CD's on their way to buy a bag of dope or drink all night.

I dont make people sign contracts. When they come 3 months without paying then just stop all together without paying what they owe, I picked up the tab.

I dont raise rates with existing students. The kid who still pays $40 a month just drops in and out every soccer season with out even a word. Then he just shows up and may pay the $40 after he has been back a month or so.

I do not do the colored belt sysem. So with my cheap tuition and minus the "belt testing fees" My students who pay the higher rate still pay $40 less a month than the students of the local Korean Karate schools.

I dedicate my whole day to training and my students are able to recieve very high level training and information because of my hard work. I have worked full time and taught part time. I know for a fact that I can give a much better education than I did when I was working full time and teaching part time. I am not one of the full time guys who lay around in their office talking philosophy (BSing on the phone) and let my students do all of the teaching. I teach the majority of my classes.

I think it is very hard to find an honest Teacher who has his students best interest at heart. Or who actually trains. Many are lazy.

I think it is just as if not harder to find a good student. I have come to the conclusion I will probably not be able to find a student who can absorb the amount of information I have to offer. Whether it is free or not.

The funny thing is that is what my teacher probably thinks the same of me :)

Not directed at you, just saw my chance to blow off some steam.

Thanks

mantid1

10-01-2005, 06:36 AM

....one last thing, why am I ALWAYS THE LAST PERSON THEY PAY EVERY MONTH?

they didnt have a problem paying the guy for the tattoo or the guy selling them the tennis shoes.

-N-

10-01-2005, 08:58 AM

Mantid1 is hardcore, and he has a nice setup.

N.

mantid1

10-01-2005, 10:56 AM

Thanks N

I just try to live up to my teachers example. I dont think I can come close.

Ill have alot of fun trying :)

FEELERSTRIKE

10-01-2005, 11:04 AM

Americanmantis,
Great post , very well put . It does make one think . :)

mantis108

10-01-2005, 11:12 AM

Good to see you back. :) Hope all is well with you.

Warm regards

Robert

Oso

10-01-2005, 02:19 PM

****, mantid1, sounds like we have the same students.

mantid1

10-01-2005, 05:33 PM

OSO

WHAT!!! I cant believe it!!! Now they are training behind my back with you.

I knew it!!

I wondered why their kung fu was improving so much. :)

Oso

10-01-2005, 07:01 PM

RAOFLMAO....yea, right. ;)

I had a 'come to jesus' meeting last month...might lose one or two but they are people who are consistantly late (as much as 15-20 days) with monthly tuition...hate to lose anyone but, you know, I just signed another annual lease...and I've been sweating the 1st for 12 months now and it's making me insane...not going to do it anymore.

ngokfei

10-01-2005, 07:50 PM

have read this same topic over theyears on many forums.

So what are these secrets?

Its the information age, its out there if you look.

don't look down on these non chinese who can read and speak. Hey I'm one of them and it was hard work. I used to be the one pestering the my sifu, what does this mean etc. and it was quite annoying as I am feeling now with all the request from my training brothers to give them translastions.

hey just buckle down and if its important to you then pick up the dictionary.

mantid1
you doing a great service by providing training for thefinancially challenged. This is rare even in the "old days" all the famous teachers taught for money or were family members. Alot worked in the teachers business for no pay in exchange for lessons. I've got a few students who do my mowing and landscapping in exchange for lessons. Value in value out.

Also it has to do with how much you put in the "lineage holder/member" topic. It doesn't affect a person's skills. I know this up front. been thrown out/"suspended" from my teacher's school many times. Now he's still my sifu but I don't live off his name. I have my own school that teaches my method. I give face to all my sifu's . Lineage holder is a very stressful position. You can have it.

Making money, how about making a living. If I wanted to be poor then i'd not work. Its great to get paid doing something you enjoy.

finding a teacher is onething but finding a deserving student is another.

peace.

mantid1

10-02-2005, 06:22 AM

youknowwho

You know What? I think you are right. I probably would pay a student to learn from me if they were dedicated to learning the material and becoming a better person. Only if I thoght they would treat me as a human being after it was all over. That even seems to be to much to expect anymore.

I probably will end up paying someone to learn everthing. When my kids turn 16 and need money to pay for insurance, cars, college....etc. Lets just hope they have the fire. Times like this I wish my kung fu brothers were closer to help fan the flames in them.

Have a good day.

-N-

10-02-2005, 09:07 AM

YouKnowWho, Mantid1,

It is good to see people that understand this.

N.

Americanmantis

10-02-2005, 03:27 PM

Hi Robert,

Good to hear from you too.

Starting "A Revolution In Awareness"...This way, everyone can benefit.

Wish more people were as open and sincere as you, Kevin, and some of the other guys on this forum.

This thread is not an issue about paying to learn, it's about paying and not learning. Please don't take any lines out of context.

When a student comes into a system, what guarantee do they have that they will learn all the forms of the style, regardless of how much time and money was spent, disciple or not?

If a "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Dr. George Lisjak

Sifu Darkfist

10-02-2005, 05:04 PM

This is an incredible thread i have enjoyed listening to the different feelings on the subject. It just so happens that i am very lucky to have a master that is true to his word so i havent worried about this. However, it is mentionable and perhaps reiterating what others have said here, that once you have reached a certain level no one can hide secrets from you (unless they never perform, and no one else in their style does either). There comes a point in our understanding that im sure the rest of you Sifus have reached long ago that you can decipher movement with relative ease. It also holds true that in the words of my master that "praying mantis is one of the most complex and difficult athletically of the traditional martial arts... if you can play praying mantis you can play anything" (Yang Xiao Dong). In retrospect, all styles have power generation philosophies, and tactics that are unique to their respective clans but they "are all sons of the same mother" (Liu Yun Chao). When it comes to other Asian matial arts or even American based for that matter, the quest has always been one of reform for effectiveness and conservation of energy, as well as one upping the other systems. This does not change the fact that they are moves that your body (which is human as are all other martial artists) can and will understand the movements of other masters simply by examination and critical thinking. In other words show a true martial artist a secret and he will show you how to make it better.

Young Mantis

10-02-2005, 09:45 PM

When a student comes into a system, what guarantee do they have that they will learn all the forms of the style, regardless of how much time and money was spent, disciple or not?

If a "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Dr. George Lisjak

You are right. There are no guarantees. But just because a student can pay tuition does not automatically mean they should or could for that matter learn whatever it is they want from the teacher.

First, there is a progression to learning anything. If a student has not reached the level to learn what they are asking for, then they will not be taught it, no matter how much money they are willing to pay. The teacher must have the integrity to teach the student correctly and in the proper progression. Teaching a student something they are not ready for is in the long run, just cheating them.

Second, there are some students who just can not progress. My Sifu has modified and reinvented his teaching method over the years. He treats slow learners as a personal challenge to find a way to help them understand. But not all students are willing to put in the work required, whether physical or mental. Some students think they are better than they are and feel they are ready for material beyond their abilities. Just because these students are willing to pay, does not mean they should be taught whatever they want.

Lastly, in any martial art, a teacher is passing on knowledge that can potentially be lethal. A responsible teacher does not hand over that information to just anyonte with a thick wallet. Trust is required between the student and the teacher. If the student is of questionable character, then how can the teacher pass on this information. Why are there background checks when trying to get a gun license? Similar idea. The teacher needs time to decide whether a student is worthy of specific knowlegde. There are no secrets, only a timeline to when a student may learn something. A basic level student will not learn advanced techniques not just because they are not ready, but also because the teacher does not have the level of trust with the student required to give that information. It should never be up to the student to decide when he/she is ready to learn something.

Vance
YM

Ou Ji

10-03-2005, 06:57 AM

Young Mantis
Based on your post how long do you think someone should wait before it starts to become apparent that you aren't going to get what you want, what you went there for in the first place?

I realize when it comes to learning everyone is different but it looks like the guys who complain about having a bad experience always seem to have spent 10+ years before they decide it's a lost cause. That's a lot of time. How many times can you do that in your life?

And most hard core students are there to learn how to fight and defend themselves. That means everything up to and including lethal techniques. I sure as h3ll would hate to get killed because my teacher didn't think I was worthy of learning lethal techniques. Agreed you don't teach them in the first year but after 5 or 6?

You can spend a lifetime learning a style but that doesn't mean it should take a lifetime to learn.

EarthDragon

10-03-2005, 10:10 AM

Wow george what a great thread. we spend so much time discusing tehcniques we overlook thing like this. something that hits home.

both you and I have been on the same road with the same people. This was one of the reasons for your, mine and steves departure from the ACMAF only to be shoned upon by the still active members.

However there are definitly teachers out there, who will take advantge of this situation. them having something we deisre; and us willing to do anything to get it. they are selling a service not a good so unfortunatly we are subject to get what they give and nothing more. This often leads to us becoming frustrated to the "later later" answer.
however if you think that what they have is worth sticking it out we will, that is until the fristration over rides the desire.

there are no guarantes in life, and in a perfect world we can take what our teachers tell us to the bank. however with the internet giving up information like it has most definatly the truths have been called out.

This is a terrible shame and takes the devotion right out of the equation all together. be well

David Jamieson

10-03-2005, 10:44 AM

The comments about payment of fees taking a back seat to other desires is all too common.

This is a business structure problem more than anything else.

basically, whether you like it or not, the person who is not up to date on their fees should by all rights be denied their space on the floor. It's a hard lesson for them, and if they leave, you'll know where they're at anyway and you didn't really lose anything.

Your time is as valuable as what you are offering, to not give you teh dues as one would give at any other store is a slap in the face.

no fees? No lessons. Period. I know that'll be tough for some of you guys, but face it, you will keep chipping away at the respect factor if you do not take a hold of your endeavour and let others dictate the terms by which you run teh financial end of your business.

Guy goes to the store and wants a loaf of bread to eat, he pays for it first before he even gets one bite. It's good business to do this guys, get it in ya.

run your business like a business and you will receive a whole different treatment, run your business like a family and expect to be treated like your family treats you. lol. Family are often our greatest critics and usually do not pay their debts within the family with any promptness or until a scene is made. For the most part, it is a mistake to do this this way. especially here where the paradigm just doesn't work that way. Your sifu is not your dad, those students are not your kids, respect will be reciprocal. If you are seen as a pushover, you will be treated as one and remember, people will treat you as you allow them to treat you.

Martial arts has no secrets. Just hard work. People selling secrets are full of sh1t at the highest order and they'll also be the first ones to fill your head with all the nonsense that goes on in martial arts across the board.

People who cannot find it within themselves to do the hard work for whatever reason will not achieve any measure of kungfu. people who ca't pay a lousy 30 or 50 buck fee for their instruction don't deserve the instruction, kick them outtil they are serious.

revocation of awarded certificates or titles is not all that uncommon. I don't agree with it. It's happened to me and had nothing to do with what I could or can do. My hands will explain to anyone who brings it up if it's that important to them.

I personally would not do this to someone because it is just malice. Teachers and students have similar responsibilities. Especially when they are within the same club and even if there is a falling out. It doesn't change any of the years in, money spent or any of it. It's just an ugly thing.

mantid1

10-03-2005, 10:53 AM

I have a great idea.

Why dont all of the instructors go to class tonight and pull 10 students to the side.

Ask them what it is that they want from your class. I bet many will take a long time to give an answer. Why? Because they probably dont know exactly what they want or how to explain it.

write these answers down.

In one year take the same students (if any are left, which is doubtfull) and ask what it is they want from their trainig?

Again at two three and four years. I bet you get four different answers.

If they do not know exactly what they want or cannot expalin it how can I give them exactly what they want. An instructor has to be a psychic these days.

Here is an example of an unhappy student.

For the last 4 years we have done two person weopons drills every Saturday. Classes are usually smaller so it is "safer". One assistant has been coming to these classes for the past two years. He decides that he needs to make more money so he starts working on saturday morning. Then I hear that he is complaining behind my back that we do not do enough weapons drills. He dicided to change his schedule now it is my fault.

Frustrating.

Ou Ji

10-03-2005, 10:56 AM

People who cannot find it within themselves to do the hard work for whatever reason will not achieve any measure of kungfu. people who ca't pay a lousy 30 or 50 buck fee for their instruction don't deserve the instruction, kick them outtil they are serious.

Just to clarify my comments I'm talking about the $100+ range. I'm poor as crap these days but even I can swing $30-$40 a month. I can't manage $75 or more which seems to be the norm anymore. Especially when travel is involved.

Americanmantis

10-03-2005, 11:12 AM

Hi guys,

Sfu Darkfist~ I have also enjoyed the responses. Awesome point.

Ou Ji~ Right on!

Earthdragon~ Great post. Very insightful interpretation. In my experience the problem is more far reaching than just the ACMAF.

For a new student coming to check out your curriculum, why advertise what you can't sell, or offer a service you don't deliver?

Young Mantis~ That's the one sided respect/control mentality theory, where the "master" is omnipotent (having unlimited power and authority) and the student has no rights or guarantees for their investment. This kind of thinking doesn't work in America, or the modern world for that matter...centers for higher learning, Universities and Colleges.

It's not an issue of getting something cause you have money either.

What about the student who has reached the level to learn what they're asking for, put in the work required, are educated and know where they are in a system, are ready for the material, of good character, are as skilled as they think and can prove it; But, for reasons outlined in my initial post the "master" decides after 5 years the student isn't worthy?

What is the time line then? Maybe a refund or litigation is in order.

If the "master" tells the students to jump off a cliff, maybe they should follow without question?

Thanks for your input though.

Dr. George Lisjak

Young Mantis

10-03-2005, 03:27 PM

Young Mantis~ That's the one sided respect/control mentality theory, where the "master" is omnipotent (having unlimited power and authority) and the student has no rights or guarantees for their investment. This kind of thinking doesn't work in America, or the modern world for that matter...centers for higher learning, Universities and Colleges.

It's not an issue of getting something cause you have money either.

What about the student who has reached the level to learn what they're asking for, put in the work required, are educated and know where they are in a system, are ready for the material, of good character, are as skilled as they think and can prove it; But, for reasons outlined in my initial post the "master" decides after 5 years the student isn't worthy?

What is the time line then? Maybe a refund or litigation is in order.

If the "master" tells the students to jump off a cliff, maybe they should follow without question?

Thanks for your input though.

Dr. George Lisjak

When a student enrolls in college, is there a guarantee that the student will get a diploma? No. If the student doesn't go to class, doesn't do the homework, doesn't understand the material and can't pass classes....The same is in learning Gung Fu. The student must do the work required.

As for your example of the "master" that doesn't live up to his obligation as a teacher, I don't know. I guess I am fortunate to not have had that kind of experience. A good teacher will teach those that have proven to do the work. I think it is possible to hold on to tradition without having the extremes you give. There are many qualified traditional instructors who do not live to cheat their students.

Young Mantis
Based on your post how long do you think someone should wait before it starts to become apparent that you aren't going to get what you want, what you went there for in the first place?

The student should be asked before even becoming a student what they hope to learn from the instructor. At that point, the instructor should explain whether or not he/she can or will teach what the student expects and a general timeframe it will be accomplished. My Sifu always interviews prospective students. Candidates are always required to watch at least one if not several classes to see if this is the type of school they want before even filling out an application. The program or curriculum of the school should be explained to the prospective student. It should not take a student five years to realize they are not on the path to their goals. If they don't understand what they are learning and how it will lead them to their goal, then they should look for another instructor.

There is a Chinese saying which I think is very true:
"Finding a good teacher is very difficult,
Finding a good student is even more difficult."

Vance
YM

Americanmantis

10-03-2005, 07:25 PM

Hi Young Mantis,

Still sounds like the one sided respect/control mentality to me.

Go ahead...jump! :eek:

If your "master" doesn't teach you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will...

A Revolution of Awareness

Thanks again for your input.

Dr. George Lisjak

bo_hou_chuan

10-03-2005, 07:37 PM

Not everyone is worthy of an MIT education. That isn't MIT's fault. But you are right, there are other schools and MIT shouldn't stop you from improving yourself.

Bo Hou Chuan

Americanmantis

10-04-2005, 06:37 AM

Hi Bo~ Guess that's up to the omnipotent "master" too.

In accredited Universities and Colleges, if you do the work, pass the tests etc, you are guaranteed the degree, it's a legal contract. Also, it is the student, given access to the entire curriculum, and not one particular teacher, who decides the speed which he progresses.

If you have the credentials, what stops you from going to MIT? Money? Also who says MIT is the best school? the "Dean".
.................................................. ....................

The wife says I put my time in here. Got a family to feed and bills to pay...oh, after I wash the "master's" underwear...

This post is dedicated to all new martial arts students. It was inspired by my training with Ilya Profatilov, who after training with for 3 years, and discipleship ceremony, decided I am not worthy of learning zhaiyao.

Thanks to all the open and sincere traditonal martial artists who helped me fill in the gaps.

Young Mantis~ I respect your dedication.
___________________________________

A Revolution of Awareness...

If your "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Have fun with this thread. Thanks for all the insights...

God Bless,
Dr. George Lisjak
www.Americanmantis.us

Americanmantis

10-04-2005, 06:42 AM

EarthDragon

10-04-2005, 06:54 AM

american mantis, no hard feelings I pray? please PM me
I understand your bitterness and realize this is not just about the federation. if it were just 1 party invloved, this discussion would not be so prevelant, in many other circles.

We must realize that different cultures have different ways and tradtions. Somtimes these traditons cannot be enforced or practiced in our american way of living and thinkig. While some may take advantage of this, others have sufffered also as a result.

it is a shame that some bad apples spoil the bushel, however we still must manintain a level of loyatly and devotion. this only comes about form one proving themselves. this is not a monetary thing.

Martial arts is a lifestyle and cannot be purchased as a good. if so the rich would be the best martial artits buying the best lessons.
Yes you can pay for lessons but that does not entilted you to anything. pay for what you get theory is not the corrct mentality. tha is saved only for the worthy. just becuse you pay money in this country does not make you worthy. we would like to beleive that in america if I spend my hard earned money then that should entiltle me.

but value is not always placed on the all mighty dollar. can wisdom be bought? dicipline and hard work and proving yourself over time have a price which cannot.

It is sad that the greatness of martial arts is sold and traded like stock which lessons the value.

how would buddhism be different if Boddidharma gave his wisdom for money? it took a poor monk an extreme measure of worthyness to prove to his teacher he was the one.

Dear george, dont feel cheated, feel learned. for without the blinders on you may see more clearly. be well

mantid1

10-04-2005, 07:30 AM

I think the masters should think much harder before they make someone a "disciple".

Why not say "hey Joe your my student". Leave it at that. You can still give them everything. You just wont have the problems when they leave.

I think a student should think long and hard and find out exactly what a disciple is before they become one. From what I understand you are not supposed to question your master when you become his disciple.

I never want to be called someones disciple.

I see so many people say "man this guy is the best!" then 6 months later they say "he's not so great, but this other guy is the best!" ......etc.

It amazes me that so many people would want to become a disciple to someone. Especialy when most of the people that I have come across in the CMA are divorced or in a dysfunctional relationship. If you cant make it work with someone you love how could you make it work with a stranger? I understand it may not be as close of a relationship but basic comitment is just that.

Yes, I know the divorce rate in China is probably lower in China than the states because of "tradition". But, many of the Chinese masters I have met did not have a problem nailing other people behind their wives back. Who knows it may just be "tradition".

This post is a general statement with no one person targeted.

Have a nice day :)

EarthDragon

10-04-2005, 08:12 AM

Actully they say a true shrfu/ tudi relationship is greater than that of family. For a marriage is a matter of compramise and reasoning. this is not true with a true shrfu/tudi communion.

this does not mean the master telling the student to jump off a cliff should not be questioned and done. it means that when the teacher loves the student he will only instruct the student to do what is best for him.

My shrfu for instance Yen Chu Feng first met James Shyun she said he not true shrfu. True Shrfu not act like this. His shrfu Wei is true Shrfu. he have many long time students who love him always even after he gone.

Her love for me is that of her only son. she came to the US to visit, was told by her shrfu that she would meet me and follow me. I didnt know what this meant at first, but she stayed in S.F until I moved back home never returned to China. Then I called her when I got settled, she bought a one way ticket and moved acroos the US to acity she didnt know and stayed with me till she got on her feet and got an apartment. she now lives in Buffalo and has healed 1,000 of sick people in NY PA OH. She hs visited China since then but still will live near me. This is love for her Shrfu as she was told to stay here in the US with me. for waht i still dont knowLOL perhaps I was meant to heal. I am still soul searching on this one but that becomes very personal.

A QUESTION TO ALL.....................

My point is is your shrfu told you to stay in a country you only went to visit, which you had never been to before, cant speak the language, and left evertything you own behind even your son, and told to follow a person whom you have never met would you????? if you trusted your shrfu totaly and knew they would not harm you and knew what was best for you would you listen?

-N-

10-04-2005, 08:40 AM

Earthdragon, Mantid1,

I can appreciate your comments regarding teacher and disciple.

Traditionally, discipleship may be acknowledged by the teacher after many years of closely teaching, observing, and evaluating the student. During this time, the teacher looks for depth and quality of the student's moral character, as well as depth and quality of the student's understanding of the system.

In modern times, there are many other ideas of discipleship. It is very sad.

N.

Americanmantis

10-04-2005, 12:09 PM

Nice name -N-

Don't forget the Depth and Quality of the pocket book!

In modern times ideas of discipleship change with the wind to suite omnipotent self serving masters.

Worthiness translates $$$$$

Only God can judge my moral character; And, anyone judging my understanding of the system can discuss it with me in person.

oops...sorry, that's all I have to say.

Take care -N-
_____________________________________

A Revolution of Awareness...

If your "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Dr. George Lisjak

-N-

10-04-2005, 12:25 PM

Americanmantis,

I'm sorry for the bad experiences you've had to endure. It should not have been that way.

best wishes to you,
N.

mantid1

10-04-2005, 01:14 PM

The more I think about it I dont know if I have ever met anyone who could keep the responsibilities of a disciples master or be a disciple.

The only example of a good disciple I can give you is my dog.

It is 100% devoted to me. It sits when I say sit. It downs when I say down. It stays when I say stay. It jumps over what ever it tell it to. It bites when I say bite. When someone approaches me it gets between that person and myself to protect me. When I tell it to find something, it finds it or looks untill i say stop. After I send a fist crashing down on it for a correction it will always stay by my side and take the correction, even if I am in the wrong.

I can not give you a good example of a master of a disciple. I feel I am hardly worthy of being my dogs master let alone another human.

-N-

10-04-2005, 01:52 PM

[...] I feel I am hardly worthy of being my dogs master let alone another human.That is a good lesson you've given. Thank you.

Also, it makes me realize that there are some who think that their mastery of a skill gives them the right to mastery over another person. Apparently, that a person has mastered martial skill doesn't necessarily say anything about what kind of person he is.

I once said to someone who had become very disillusioned and depressed, "Look, he's just a regular human like everybody else... except that he can kick your azz really really fast."

In The Sword Polisher's Record, Sifu Adam Hsu writes a bit about unrealistic expectations that others may have of him as a Sifu. He tells them something along the lines of, "Look, I'm really just a regular person. I'm not the answer to all your issues and needs"

N.

libingshao

10-04-2005, 02:23 PM

I could have this completely wrong but I always thought that discipleship had to do with who was chosen, by the master, to carry on the family style of Kung-Fu, in the name of the master. These people functioned in this capacity both in the school of the master and in public after the master retired.

Along this line of thinking also though, I have seen schools that were taught by students of a master but were those who were not named either "disciples" or "graduates". (I will not name names but I believe that we all know and respect many of these senior names in Tanglang).

All this to say that a disciple treate his master well because of what he is being given and the master treats the disciple well, knowing that therein lies the future of his investment in time, energy and knowledge. Not that this happens on either part all the time but it is kind of how I look at it.

Libingshao

Ou Ji

10-04-2005, 04:04 PM

Sounds about right to me plus I've always heard that each master only picks 12 disciples. What I'm curious about is why limit how many students are entrusted to spread the system?

I have seen instances where all 12 disciples eventually wander off and don't carry on the system. What does the master do in a situation like that?

Not only that but do all the students know, going in, that they won't be getting the whole systems, no matter how long they stay and train, unless they are chosen to become disciples?

dengta

10-04-2005, 04:06 PM

George,

A response to your comments is being formed as of this writing by Ilya and his disciples. I strongly suggest you read it.

-N-

10-04-2005, 04:32 PM

Libingshao, again your comments make sense.

Ou Ji, I'm sure the process varies from teacher to teacher. Maybe that is how it is done in Infinite Monkey Boxing? :)

As far as getting the whole system, I'm more familiar with the teacher teaching everybody the same, but not all students being able to understand. If you haven't learned the material and do not meet the teacher's standard of quality, he would not have you represent his teachings as a disciple. Though I can see from the discussion here that apparently there are teachers that deliberately withhold material. I would suggest rather than withhold material, just pick a student that you want to teach fully and without reserve.

N.

-N-

10-04-2005, 05:18 PM

Just a few random comments.

I know a traditional Mantis teacher that teaches his students without charging tuition. He doesn't advertise for students, accepts very few, and has turned away others. Needless to say, he does not rely on teaching KF for making a living. When teaching, he gives everything he knows, and limits only by the ability of the student to understand.

Recently someone inquired about becoming a student... a 10 year old boy. The boy was very polite, so the teacher talked to him for a while to find out why he wanted to learn, and to find out if the boy had good character or might become arrogant or a troublemaker. After some discussion, the teacher thought that the boy might make a good student and could benefit from training. He told him to come to the following week's class.

The boy asked how much he would have to pay to be a student. The teacher told him that there would be no charge, except that he had to practice hard, do his kung fu homework every day, and never use his kung fu to cause trouble.

The following week, the new student showed up as he was told. Before the class started, the student gave the teacher 2 big oranges that the parents had him bring as a token tuition payment.

The new student met his Sihings and practiced along with the rest of the class as best as he could. The teacher gave him footwork drills and saw that he practiced without stopping or complaining even though his legs were shaking and his feet hurt him.

The teacher gave the student some more things to practice and told him to repeat 100 times. After some corrections, he told the student to do 50 more times. After that, it was 25 more times. During this time, the student practiced without being lazy, even though the teacher was looking the other way and helping the other students.

3 hours later, the class was over. The teacher gave the new student more homework, and reminded him that he should never use his kung fu to cause trouble. He warned him that if that ever happened, he would be expelled from the class and could not be a student any more.

Maybe this student will be a good one. Hard to say.

N.

mantid1

10-04-2005, 05:59 PM

N

That is a good example.

We read that and think "wow this kid is great much better than the average"!

The sad thing is that I and maybe others woud think of this as exceptional.

This should be the norm for everyone. It should not be so hard to practice and work hard at something you enjoy.

I was just happy to see my 9 year old praciticing his Broad sword in the kitchen when I walked through. Maybe he will have the "core of the mantis boxer" someday :)

Gold Horse Dragon

10-04-2005, 08:27 PM

To me, this is about commercialism vs traditional and somewhat about good Sifu vs bad Sifu and good student vs bad student.

I never ran my Kwoon as a business. Membership fees were charged and the fee was an amount just enough to cover the rent and expenses of running a non-profit corp. There was lots of free stuff such as; Dit Da Jow was free, treatment for injuries was free, tea was free and with lion dance money I would take the dancers out for a meal. On some occasions I paid for new years dinner for students and spouses who could not afford it. For one of my senior students at the time, private lessons were free, acupuncture treatments were free, herbal treatments were free and he came over for a number of meals prepared by my wife and Simo of the Kwoon. So…my point is…kung fu martial art lessons were not charged for and neither were the other items plus more. Material taught, had to be earned by the student, in conduct, knowledge and ability. Did not charging for lessons result in a better student/person?…NO for some, YES for others and for some YES for awhile and then NO after. Some of the ‘NO’ ones will be a big NO, such as this guy, who turned a bad side and is full of unjustified anger, resentment and malice. In fact, he went retrograde (real regrettable) shortly after moving to another city and started and still does black ball me..even though he had free private lessons, meals, dit da jow, and the rest. This guy thinks he is a victim with a capitol ‘V’, when in fact he is not a victim at all. I ended up having to expel him and remove his grade. As a Sifu, in over 25 years of teaching, I have only had to remove one students black sash for behaviour unbecoming. It was not done lightly and he was given numerous chances…but in the end it had to be done…and as a Sifu not charging for lessons, but rather for expenses of running the Kwoon, I had and have every right to do so and it was a consequence of his actions. Heck, if I had done this to my Sifu, I would have received not only an expulsion but also a most serious physical lesson. Unfortunately, I could not remove the knowledge and teaching I gave this guy…unless of course he gets total amnesia. However, what I could do and had to do, was to reject him as a student and one time friend. Would I have liked for this to have turned out much differently than what transpired…of course…but what is …is. From a few other of my students who know what appreciation, consideration, loyalty and respect is, I did and do have returns (spiritual and worldly help when I need it) from them.…some of these students are old friends now and they have not changed even after 19 years, though they no longer do kung fu due to health issues. They just had and have a much different set of values and code of conduct than other students of mine, such as this guy.

Are there teachers out there who treat their students badly and unfairly…sure. Are there students who treat their teachers badly and unfairly…most assuredly.

For you honourable Sifu out there, appreciate a good student and give students a chance, but if the student is a bad apple or penny…then he is…and you have to do what needs to be done.

For you honourable students out there…appreciate a good Sifu when you find him and if not finding one…keep trying…they are out there.

In western culture, I personally believe that if you run a commercial school, based on ‘pay for every single thing’, then run it like one, without the other traditional requirements. If you operate a traditional school, where the only fee is ‘membership’, to cover operating expenses, then run it as such and students have to understand this and abide by those traditional requirements.

For students thinking it is ‘tough to be a student’, believe me it is much ‘tougher being a Sifu’. Well…as the saying goes…when the going gets tough the tough get going…all the rest go shopping.

Sifu Darkfist

10-04-2005, 08:29 PM

the sad thing is all the political cr ap. I would burn in agony to save the life of my master or gung fu brothers. I believe my master would do the same. I do have question as to the gung fu brothers that do not present as prolific example as i.

This is sad because i plan to enlarge this group in this area exceptionally, and sadly due to graduate school choices i will have to leave it, however i will leave it to my gung fu brothers or at least one of them. The one least likely to bad mouth me to further his own greed for power.

I dont care if i am brother 13 or brother one the truth lies in the application of the techniques. Also the ability to effectively teach these styles helps dramatically. More importantly one of my first masters warned me of form chasers and those that are always in search of more.

They never master any form or style, they never learn how to fight, and they never learn the secrets of the arts for themselves.

"It is better to know one or two forms perfectly than to be able to walk through 100". Dr. i wouldnt worry about Zai Yao it is just a reiteration of all the other forms just like any other. In fact you guys have said all along, if you gain deep understanding of the first few forms you will have the tools needed to successfully take the style to the street.

"Basics are the most important thing, without them you have no martial arts" (Master Yang)

-N-

10-05-2005, 02:18 AM

Mantid1,

Good on your son :)

Watch out though, in a few years you're gonna be finding sword marks, holes, and footprints on your kitchen ceiling :)

N.

TaichiMantis

10-05-2005, 06:05 AM

About the secrecy thing....

When I first started, I wanted to learn everything about the history of CCK TJPM. I found a few forums where students of our grandmaster's kung fu brother posted. I really enjoyed their posts, however, I haven't seen anyone from that school online for quite awhile. I do wonder if they were discouraged from posting on forums....sad.:confused:

EarthDragon

10-05-2005, 06:11 AM

gold horse dragon............. beautiful post.

To everyone.............
it seems as thought his thread has stirred up bad blood. and I would like to tell the forum that my comments and responses are soley based from my own experiences.
I am not commeting on anything or anyone else's . I am not taking sides or defending anyone. I didnt see how my responses could be miscontrued as such but it seems as though they were. So for the record I speak only of what happened to me in the this very same situation and realize that every situation is different but this sort of thing has happned to more than just a few people over the years in the world.
it is a public forum and everyone is entitled to thier opinon even if those opinons are opposite. I have had to agree to disagree more than once and realize every point brought up here is valid to the person whom said it. I love the fact that we have this medium to discuss what troubles us, enthuises us, and makies us happy. be well

yu shan

10-05-2005, 06:52 AM

Mantid1

Well sir, the fruit does not fall far from the tree. You coach both your son and your students well! You are a fine father to your boy and your students are lucky to have you for a Shifu. I have never seen someone train as much as you. You spend alot of quality time on your martial arts and it shows. Your Teacher has done good.

TaichiMantis

You should hook up with Mantis108 he is really good guy and very knowledgeable. He has a nice website and forum. I can relate about posting here... I mainly just sit back and read/learn. I feel there is some cr*p but also a heap of quality information. I appreciate contributions made here that have made me a better person.

I too stress the basics! I truley believe in them. I think I have spoiled my students with some pretty nice Mantis forms, not alot though compared to the 7* guys. Think I am going to spend a year or so fine tuning these sets. I am going to focus on the differant stages of learning our forms. Lien stage, ling stage, and pi stage. I will not even get to the chai stage for a while. See mantis quarterly vol.1 issue 1 to explain these stages. We spend alot of time on two person hand drills and kicking drills.

kejia nu ren

10-05-2005, 07:31 AM

i think this is a very important topic that is being discussed, and feel that it's beneficial to see how people approach discipleship, traditionalism vs. commercialism, and closed door teaching in different ways.

I was recommended a book by a co-worker called "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. I'm just getting to the end of it now, and although the book is written from the experiences of someone who was trained in the Korean and Japanese arts, the principles and themes he writes of are universal to all martial arts (most of the fundamentals stemming from TCMA anyways). I found the book to be very thorough and applicable for students who may not understand what studying a martial art should entail (not only physical training, but mental training and character building). It doesn't specifically focus on discipleship, but there is a chapter on the teacher/student relationship, and certain conflicts that may arise from this delicate bond.

I enjoyed the book and would recommend any student serious about "living the martial way" to pick it up...for teachers who may have difficulty gettin their point across with students, they may want to make it suggested reading. Just some thoughts.

mantid1

10-05-2005, 07:35 AM

Yushan

Just trying to live up to your example!:)

TaichiMantis

10-05-2005, 07:40 AM

yu shan

10-05-2005, 08:05 AM

Thank you for the tip. I will get this book... anything to help get my point across to some of my thick headed young people. But then it would be nice if some of my older students would step in and assist with some do`s and don`ts. I am sure there is alot I can learn from this book, I am just a student myself.

TaichiMantis

10-05-2005, 10:08 AM

Mantid1

TaichiMantis

You should hook up with Mantis108 he is really good guy and very knowledgeable. He has a nice website and forum. I can relate about posting here... I mainly just sit back and read/learn. I feel there is some cr*p but also a heap of quality information. I appreciate contributions made here that have made me a better person.

.

Yup, we've interacted quite a few times! In fact, he may have some insights into why some of these posters seem to have dropped out of sight...

-N-

10-05-2005, 10:30 AM

Keijia nu ren,

Perhaps you could post some short synopses of some of the themes in that book? I'm sure many of us would appreciate that.

N.

-N-

10-05-2005, 10:46 AM

Here is another story that has been passed down. About a teacher and a student. The teacher is very well known, and no longer with us. The student is not anyone that is known here, so no one need be offended.

Years ago, a Sifu first started teaching, doing so part time out of his garage and backyard. He had a small group of students who trained hard with him. He didn't hold back, and they became his first group of senior students. After some time, the Sifu opened a commercial school, and the students followed him. The school was very successful - to the point where the Sifu quit his regular job to run his school full time. The classes grew to the point where the Sifu would spend his time teaching the senior students, and the seniors would teach the juniors; a traditional arrangement.

All seemed well, but somehow it was not. One day, the senior students approached their Sifu. They told him that they had learned everything he had to teach, that he had nothing left to offer, and that they were leaving to start their own school. Not only that, but they would take students with them also. As a further arrogance, one senior challenged the Sifu to fight, and then attacked him to prove his own superiority to his Sifu and the rest of the students.

The Sifu was outraged. How could this be?! Betrayed by his closest students, his favorites, the ones that he gave so much attention to, the ones that he valued the most!

The senior attacked quickly, explosively, and with vicious intent... exactly as he was taught by his own Sifu. The Sifu had no choice but to react. Countering the attack, he found himself snatching out the eyes of his attacker. In a split of a second, thoughts raced through the Sifu's mind. "Yes, it will be a good lesson for the student, to become blinded." "No, this student has a family. A wife and a baby. Innocent people should not suffer."

As the tip of his mantis claw began to make contact, the Sifu changed his technique. The vicious counter to the equally vicious attack changed at the very last instant. Instead of blinding the proud boastful student, the Sifu simply and gently touched the student's eyelids and closed his eyes for him. That, was his final lesson to the student. "Yes, I have nothing left to teach you. You should leave now and never come back."

The student's attack succeeded in one thing only... in breaking his Sifu's heart. The Sifu closed down his school and sent away all of the students, every last one.

After a period of long reflection, the Sifu knew what he wanted. He had thought about the hundreds of students that had been in his school. Among other things, he gave careful consideration to their character. He contacted a very few of the students and told them to come back. These were the students that he allowed to train with him again. For many years, the Sifu refused to teach any others. Only after a very long time did the Sifu gradually begin to accept an occasional new student - students that he could be sure would be dedicated and of good character. Once every year or so, the Sifu could be heard to say quietly after a lesson, "I never taught this before to the others."

N.

Americanmantis

10-05-2005, 12:19 PM

Thanks guys...these are some great posts. I even had someone call from out of state. Mantid 1's dog post is classic.

dengta~ I hope he says; keeping you as a friend is more important, we had a lot of laughs and good times training, you spent a lot of time and money to train, so I'll teach you the last few forms of Wang Yuanqin's Grand Ultimate.

If he doesn't say that, I'm not interested in what he, or his disciples say.

Dr. George Lisjak

libingshao

10-05-2005, 07:00 PM

-N-

I can echo the "held back" techniques. The sifu I have known do not have written curriculum. You stay and you train and, over time, your sifu repeatedly reaches into his memory and experience and teaches you techniques. This is, to me, the real value of staying by your teacher. It is "his" kung-fu he is giving you and it is tied to his life experience and his growth as a teacher. You have to be around because it may be that only at a certain level and at a certain time that he actually "remembers" or "conceptualizes" what he does in a way that he can pass it on.

Right on -N- !

Libingshao

-N-

10-05-2005, 07:29 PM

Libingshao,

From what you write, I know you have lived it. Your kung fu must be good. Your students are lucky, and I am happy for you!

That is exactly what I have seen. That is how the real depth of knowledge is transferred. The kung fu is alive, and it is conceptualized and reconceptualized on the spot, for that student, at that time, based on the ongoing dialogue of training from past to present between the teacher and student.

To point to a very weird analogy, the only one that I can think of right now, it is a bit like going to a high level sushi chef. You can walk in off the street, and order off the menu... you will pay the set price, and you will get something standard.... and yes it will be good.

If the sushi master knows you, and you let him, he can create something special for you on the spot. His creation will be one of a kind, using the best of the ingredients that happen to be in his shop that very day. It will show the best of his skills, creativity, and mastery of his art, and it will be the perfect sushi for you, right at that moment. People that know this, get the best of the best.

N.

dengta

10-06-2005, 09:09 AM

George Lisjak has been officially expelled from the Taiji Tanglang,
Taiji Meihua Tanglang and Liuhe Tanglang Boxing School of a True
Transmission of Grand Masters Ma Hanqing, Wang Yushan and Wang Yuanqian
and the International Traditional Grand Ultimate, Plum Blossom and Six
Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing Association for knowingly and willingly
breaking the written oath he signed and swore to on 16th of November
2001. Any person seeking further details should contact
taijitanglang@yahoo.com.

International Traditional Grand Ultimate, Plum Blossom and
Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing Association.
Moscow, New Haven, Boston, Beijing, Qingdao

Americanmantis

10-06-2005, 01:29 PM

How am I supposed to get any work done.

libingshao~ untaught techniques...the proverbial "carrot in front of the horse". Meanwhile the "meter" is running.

-N-~ I just want what I ordered.

dengta~ It doesn't mean anything anyway. Refer to my last post.
_________________________________

If your "master" doesn't teach you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will...

A Revolution of Awareness

-N-

10-06-2005, 03:35 PM

-N-~ I just want what I ordered.Well, they do let you have it your way at Burger King :)

But seriously, I understand where you're coming from. I guess both parties should be in agreement on the nature of the arrangement or transaction so everybody's expectations can be met.

N.

Ou Ji

10-06-2005, 04:38 PM

Here we go again.

My bet is on

it never happening.

mantid1

10-06-2005, 05:46 PM

This why I do written contracts now if I am to do such a contract. I know what is expected of me and they know what is expected of them. If there is a question in three years we can sit down and read the contract.

My other suggestion would be to keep challenges private like you started it. Personal challenges should be kept personsal. If for no other reason keep it quiet for leagal reasons.

Sifu Darkfist

10-06-2005, 07:52 PM

good luck to all parties involved in this altercation. I only hope cooler heads prevail and all is well once again. This form That form who really cares just train.
I just trained from 5 pm till 10 pm and i feel great.

First 3 miles at 6.5 mph
second weight training with jump rope rotation in between sets
third one hour of cardio class with the ladies (they are known for inspiring an old man to move hard and fast)

fourth hard core mantis class first Wutang traditional Kung fu one Hour
Second san shou, third Hand to Hand combat training. Oh and you have to train harder than your students (unless you are older) or else dont be suprised if the grim reaper knocks early.

10:30 eat much more protein in the form of salmon
All is good with god and the world, i feel great for a thirty five year old nut.
I dont feel like arguing anything, thats for sure.

kejia nu ren

10-06-2005, 10:17 PM

per -N-'s suggestion, hopefully some people will find this info useful.

Living the Martial Way by Forrest E. Morgan.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942637763/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-8538781-7213449#reader-link

The book is divided into 3 parts - first one focuses on how one should approach training, second on the role of honor in your role as a martial artist, both within the realm of being a student/teacher as well as the greater community, and third on how your martial training/perspective should be applied to other aspects of your life.

the author uses many references to old-school martial artists and legendary warriors and their writings, mostly Japanese, to emphasize the warrior mentality one had in those days, and how a similar mentality can be applied to modern martial arts. there are also many points made based on tactical/philosophical teachings of Lao-Tzu, Confucious, Sun-Tzu, and even Bruce Lee. it's hard to give a synopsis of each chapter - the book really covers a lot of important topics, IMHO. the table of contents in the amazon excerpt above lists out all the chapter titles, which i think sufficiently describes the content in the book. personally i got the most out of chapters relating to honor, religion and mysticism relating to martial arts, and the warrior-mindset.

i don't necessarily think that one has to follow everything in the book precisely to become a serious or true martial artist, but there is definitely a sense of traditionalism rooted in the author's perspective, which i like a lot. i'm still new to the wonderful world of martial arts, but the principles discussed in this book mirror the way i was raised and my attitude towards all the different aspects of my life, so each person will have a different interpretation/reaction to the content based on their already existent perspectives.

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 06:09 AM

guarentee's in life? ..............................................NONE
Pay for what you get? ...........................................Not always
expect too much in only 3 years of devotion ........NO
learning experience? ..............................................pric eless

suck it up, move on and continue training........ no one can take that away.
Instead of being dissapointed in not learning any more new techniues how about mastering the many techniques you already know?

viper

10-07-2005, 06:35 AM

there are somethings that a person can only learn on there own i understand alot about this secrecy thing but dtop lookin and one day it will stare u in the face u just havent realised its worked like that for me i get a lift with one of my seniors hes always sayin it will fall into place i practice wing chun but i think this topic it kinda crosses sorry if i offend and i kept thinkin if keep trainin harder and harder ill find some secret then one day during reflection in my class i saw it just small things that were secrets but unspoken ones sounds like jibberish things u dont see but then do i belive whateva sifu shows me is right im not lookin for something to make me better because thats arrogance martial arts isnt bout bein better. just a thought sorry to intrud on ur subject

-N-

10-07-2005, 06:56 AM

Viper,

Were you not in class when your English teacher revealed the secrets of punctuation? ;)

ok I do agree with waht u have 2 say you rox0r d00d 111eleventy1!!

N.

-N-

10-07-2005, 06:59 AM

Hakka Gal,

Cool. Thanks for the book overview.

N.

-N-

10-07-2005, 07:06 AM

Viper,

Your No Shadow Punctuation technique is very fierce!

N :)

yu shan

10-07-2005, 07:08 AM

It`s all good Viper, appreciate your thoughts, punctuation gives me a headache. It comforts me to see a student come to the moment when he or she "gets it". And you see this big AHHHHH...

kejia nu ren, I look forward to this read.

Darkfist, enjoy the age you are at you are firing on all cylinders... oh to be 35 again!

TaichiMantis

10-07-2005, 08:19 AM

Americanmantis

10-07-2005, 11:33 AM

-N-~ Burger King...there is a lot to be said about giving people what they want.:)

dengta~ Sorry for the delay. I have been so scared since you sent me that threat/challange, that I haven't been able to sleep in weeks...Oh...when did you send me that?...yesterday?...Must have been something else.

Hey...where does that kind of attitude fit in with Ilya's code of moral conduct. You are in violation, and subject to disciplinary action. Be careful you might get expelled like me.

By the way, what is your real name?
____________________________________

Honestly, I really enjoyed training with Ilya. I hope in the future we can train again. He is very dynamic and a very knowledgeable Praying Mantis practitioner.

The point of this thread is that what good is all this philosophical BS about family, discipleship, knowledge, tradition, etc., if it creates violence, separates friends regardless of race or culture, or prevents you from helping someone else.

A lot of people can relate to the issues presented on this thread, just look at all the responses. Something to think about...
______________________________________

Burger King~ "Wake up with the king."

A Revolution of Awareness

Dr. George Lisjak

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 12:50 PM

american mantis,
so are you going to accept dengta challenge? many ears are waiting to hear your response. and remember ignoring it is not a response.

You do have some valid points. (lots of animosity) but valid points.

When I speak I speak only of my personal experiences and dissapointments.

So George you know me and this first hand and were partially part of the problem yourself if you remember. So you bad mouthed me for years sticking up for Shyun.
Karma is a inescapable thing..............

I quite my job, sold my car and took all the money I had at the time and moved with 1 suitcase to a city (SF) that I had never been. all on the faith that i was accepted to train under that master of the system I loved. I was honnored he had accepted me as a student for he turned me down for 5 years prior.

I lived with him, cleaned, ran errands washed his car, did paper work taught classes and did whatever he said so show my appreciation.

Only to 3 years later be lied to betrayed and taken off the website as instructor all becuse I didnt pay thousands of dollars after I opened my school and didnt force my studetns to pay 5,000 for the "sifu program"

So am I bitter yes but I still respect what he DID teach me.

I sucked I up and moved on. yes andy miles and travis whitman whom never me still try to discredit my accomplishemnts in the ACMAF mostly out of jealousy but I stayed true and kept learning. actully others have stepped forward and helped me with my training and knowledge.

So I forgave and forgot I sugggest you do the same. be well. George please respond to this post

Frogman

10-07-2005, 12:56 PM

After reading all six pages of this I can clearly see that many here have a great respect for their teachers. I believe that there are more good teacher then bad ones. In comparison I think you will find more bad students or at least a higher ratio. I don’t know the originator of this thread nor do I wish to take sides. I simply wish to speak my mind about what I have read here. Three years is a short time on the martial arts clock. Even with prior training it takes that long to truly get to know someone weather student or teacher. As your bond gets stronger with your Sifu they will open up to you. Patients goes a long way. You can not expect to learn a whole system so quickly. It will not sink in well enough to understand it. Even with prior training. I have only been teaching for a little over a year and am no were near being a Sifu so I like to stick to the basics. Well I have learned a lot in doing simple routine basic techniques and body movement. I agree and truly believe that the most important secrets are in the basic movements. Once you have them, all the other stuff is just movement.

Patient:
Capable of waiting, able to endure waiting or delay without becoming annoyed or upset or to persevere calmly when faced with difficulties.
Able to tolerate difficult circumstances, able to tolerate being hurt, provoked, or annoyed without complaint or loss of temper.
Respect:
Characteristic, an individual characteristic or attitude toward others.
Esteem, a feeling or attitude of admiration and deference toward somebody or something won the respect of ones colleagues.
Regards, polite greetings offered to somebody.
Respectful:
Showing appropriate deference and respect, to everyone junior or senior.

Our actions speak much loader then our words, even if we do nothing.

RibHit
fm:cool:

viper

10-07-2005, 08:02 PM

yeah sorry bout the Punctuation i dont say full stop when i talk or comma so i dont really write it but yeah sorry ill try to put some more gramma in so as not to lead u astray

yu shan

10-07-2005, 08:22 PM

Why is there so much drama with you Babu guys? All you fellows sound like a broken record... same ole sh*t all the time. Why don`t you just train and teach! Try promoting 8-Step, it is a great style. Keep your mouth shut... OK... who really cares about what you guys went thru. I came up originally in Wah Lum... ya want to hear some real war stories... about Master Chan? And ethics!

The times I spent with Ilya Profatilov were special, he and his students always treated me well. Although I do not train with Ilya, mucho respect for this man.

mantid1

10-08-2005, 05:44 AM

It doesnt sound like your really over it eathdragon.

I agree its not a good idea to talk about all of the old war stories from our old systems. We had the majoruty of good times but want to focus on the bad. Why is that?

We all have problems in our current system but would not dream of posting about them on a public forum while we are in the system. Why do it when you leave? Does something change over night?

yu shan

10-08-2005, 06:57 AM

Yea your right Mantid, there will be no mud-slingging here. The folks in that style know the stories, let the sleeping dog lie eh. There is something to be said about positive energy so I (we) should focus on that which is good. There is alot of good in 8-Step, these folks should be proud. We have 8-Step in Ponglai and what little I know, I dig it. Geez, some of my guys use goodies out of Qi Shou in their sparring, and works very well... a simple little form like that!

One minor irratation for me is, I have wanted to post up clips of Ponglai material and I cannot. But when your Shifu says no, it means no. I think he is going to put clips up on his website which is under construction at this time.

One thing that crosses my mind about getting stressed, you see minutes hours days subtracted from your life, it is not worth it! Advice given to me by a close kungfu brothers teacher.;)

-N-

10-08-2005, 08:09 AM

You positive energy guys have got the right idea. Use all that energy that would have went toward fighting stress, toward something positive for you and your students in your martial journey. Or are we all beginners that still want to use force against force?

We had the majoruty of good times but want to focus on the bad. Why is that?If you are fighting, and the other guy nails you, and you become focused on the fact that you got hit, you will likely become defeated.

If you have an emotional injury, and you become focused on that, you also invite defeat.

N.

-N-

10-08-2005, 08:12 AM

Viper, jus messin wit cha. Actually, it was kind of fun trying to read your post. And the message came across regardless.

thanks,
N.

mantid1

10-08-2005, 10:37 AM

Yushan

I would love to see some of the pong lai posted. From what I understand the style pulls from different mantis and long fist systems but still maintains its own "flavor". The master in Taiwan must have some extensive knowledge. Some day I would like to learn some.

To bad you cant post any. At first thoght I would think that your instructor may be being secretive or controlling.

But looking at it on the postive side, my guess would be that he has spent alot of time in money learing this system. He is probably passionate about his art. Which makes it understandable why he may be protective of it and his master.

I could see the point in having one person responsible for the release of material.
At least what is posted on the net.

lulusweeps

10-08-2005, 11:35 AM

I must say this whole situation is sad. I have had the pleasure of training with both Master Profatilov and Sifu Lisjak. In many cases at the same time. I feel the frustration from both sides.

Sifu Profatilov (as also his student Gary) were always very patient with me and helped me along with my Mantis. We shared a lot of laughs, big dinners and bruises on my end. Ilya's best line to me once after leaving from a weekend of training when my shoulder was bruised and I could move it much was "its only skin":) He is also an encyclopedia when it comes to Praying Mantis history.

Sifu Lisjak is a very kind and caring person who took me under his wing when my Sifu descided to stop teaching 8 Step. We still talk and get together when possible. Through Sifu Lisjak I met Sifu Profatilov. I wish you two would patch things up as I remember the relationship you two had. I don't know the exact story between what happened but I hope it is not beyond repair.

Although I have descided to pursue 8 Step as my primary style I still think I would not be the martila artist I am today without knowing both of them.

I am lucky because I have found an 8 Step teacher related directly to Master Wei who has helped me over the past 21/2 years and has never asked for anything in return except that I represent the style the best I can. So there are people out there willing to share information and teach if you look hard enough and you are on the up and up.

Just my two cents.