Choy Lee Fut versus Bagua (video)

[Sensei_Andy]

I think Fu-pow might have brought this up in another thread but I'm curious too.

What is CLF Noi Lim Sau? I've also seen the terms Loi Lim Sau, Nei Lim Sau and Oi Lim Sau?

What do these mean? Could someone translate and also give the Mandarin translation?

The first term is pretty easy to translate Noi/Oi is inside/outside. Which I assume s Nei/Wai in Mandarin.

As a student of Chen Taiji I'm pretty familiar with so called "internal" martial arts and I'm curious as to why Chan Family guards this as some super secret aspect of CLF?

Basically, my understanding is that "inside" martial arts have different body mechanic requirements.

In Taiji the body mechanic requirements are as follows:

1) Fang Song (relaxed)
2) Peng Jin (inflated)
3) Chan Si Jin (spiral motion)
4) Synchronicity (one part moves, all parts move)

I can see that in an art like CLF that the "internal" body mechnanic fits WITHIN the external body mechanic, almost like a way to "power" it. However the internal body mechanic can be used on its own without ever resorting to external. Its use requires that you be much closer to your opponent than you would using the external aspect. This change in strategy is reflected in using a different "aspect" of the movement ie the one that fits inside.

To use an analogy....imagine that you are holding a rope that has a heavy weight attached to it. When you are doing internal it is like spinning the weight around the middle of the rope where you are holding it. All parts move at different speeds but in a synchronous manner. As the weight comes around on its circular path, you send it out on a tangential path. Now the weight is moving and the middle of the rope stays still. This is "external." All parts are not moving together. The tension in the rope has collapsed and you must use extra energy to pull the weight back into its orbit around your hand.

ps. has anyone seen a Choy Lee Fut versus Bagua video as I'd like to see it.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Sensei Andy,

Welcome to the debate.

Have you heard of a popular CMA saying, “10,000 fists have but one principle"? It means we will all end up doing more or less the same MA at the end.

My point of view is how can an “inside’ MA have a different body mechanic to an “outside” MA when we have the same physiological body and governed by the same physical laws? You are either mentally or physically efficient or you are not.

This “inside” and “outside” classification is just that, a man-made distinction to allow us to understand the working of our body and mind better, but they are not two separate entities but two different aspects of the same thing, like the way we teach “Ngoi Lim Sau” and “Ngoi Lim Sau” in CLF to highlight the “seen” and the “unseen” aspects of the same MA system.

All the stuff you mentioned about Taijiquan is also in CLF and it is not some “super secret” kept by anyone. If you do CLF long enough and under a knowledgeable teacher, then you will realize that, otherwise you are still on the outside looking in, even though you may be on the outside of an inside view, if you know what I mean.

The idea is to pull that curtain down, so the “inside” and the “outside” are now one and the same thing. When you do Taijiquan, you started from the “inside” and in CLF we started from the “outside”; eventually we will meet in the middle and discover each other.

Seeing that I started with a quote, I would like to finish with another one by Laozi in his Daodejing, “Everything has Form (“You”) but Form comes from “Formless” (“Wu”)”.

So according to the oriental point of view, “inside’ and “outside”, “soft” and “hard”, “internal” and “external”, “ngoi lim” and “noi lime”, “have’ and “have not’, “form” and “formless” “qigong” and “kung fu”, “nature” and “nurture” etc. and etc. are just names to differentiate of the two complementary opposite aspects that are inherent in a human being, that is you and I, doing Taijiquan and CLF, trying to find the same thing - the yin and yang and the Dao in us.

When we find that, we will be invincible. Meanwhile, we will, at the best, just win a few fights and look good! May be if we are lucky, we can pick up a few women on the way! :D

BTW, I posted the mandarin pronunciations and the characters for “Noi Lim Sau” and Ngoi Lim Sau” before, here is again for your reference:

Noi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

Ngoi Lim Sau

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

http://chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/...andarin,english

Nice chatting to you. Cheers.

:)