Katana VS Broad Sword

[Qiman]

OK just for kicks. Samari with Katana VS Shaloin Monk with Broad Sword. Who wins and why?

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

here we go

[gfx]

Here's something that boggles the mind: why would a monk be carrying a sword? isn't that against the whole "thou shall not take the life of a living creature" thing?

In any case, I say the samurai. Since the monks that went to fight the Japanese pirates in Ming dynasty were wiped out by the samurais then.

[Mega_Fist]

It's a good question but you haven't looked at the issue of what katana was used. If Judo Katana then Samurai, but if some lame katana that someone like Bodhitree would use then Shaolin Monk.

Very spiritual post, well done.

[Repulsive Monkey]

the one who hast the most skill on the day.

God these questions are lame!

[Royal Dragon]

I'd say the broad sword would win. My daughter watches alot of anime, and in one of her cartoons a charecter caries a Katana, but every time it it gets serious, and he fights it magically transforms into a broad sword, so broad swords must be superior. :p

[Invisible-fist]

Seriously, I think this one has an answer. The Katana is vastly superior technology. All else being equal, Katana would win. Its like a rifle versus musket.

[Royal Dragon]

What is so superior about a Katana? It's all just sharpened metal in the end.

[Scott R. Brown]

What is so superior about a Katana? It's all just sharpened metal in the end.

Yeah! But its really really sharp!!!

Or should I say, "Really, really, really sharp!!!"

And it has a pointy tip too that can be used for jabbing!! :)

[Ben Gash]

As Katana technology reached it's peak around the 1600s, and the Dao we generally use today was designed in the early to mid 1800s, the rifle and musket analogy is somewhat off. Indeed, metallurgical questions aside, as a piece of weapon design the dao has many advantages, being faster and having more weight at the cutting area. It's also better for thrusting and more manouverable.
I think we need to get away from the 80s cult of the Katana, and recognise that western and Chinese sword technologies were every bit as advanced (indeed, between 1870 and 1930 the japanese actually used western style swords, it was the iconic nature of the Katana that saw it re-introduced with the rise of Japanese nationalism).
Lets not forget that Liu Yun Qiao killed a Japanese swordsmaster armed with a Jian :eek:
GFX, that is a myth.
At the end of the day, armed fights are highly unpredictable, and a piece of wet ground can be more decisive than skill.

[Mega_Fist]

The thing about Judo Katana is it takes the best things from the China and makes them really cool. Judo Katana is easily the best for that reason.

[Ou Ji]

Mega_Fisting
MMA Willowsword is much more realistic. Other swords would be tapped out shortly after being unsheathed, especially Judo Katana.

Little known fact:

Chuck Liddel trained in MMA Willowsword techniques before his fight with Tito Ortiz and we all know the results. They transfer quite well to empty hand fighting. And guess who he learned these techniques from?


Yep, Randy Couture.
:D :D :D
:eek: :eek: :eek:
:p :p :p

[Royal Dragon]

The thing about Judo Katana is it takes the best things from the China and makes them really cool. Judo Katana is easily the best for that reason.

Reply]
No, not really. They just created cheap copies of the Chinese's Taiji broad sword and passed it off as thier own. :D


http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-60kk.html

[Scott R. Brown]

Well if we were honest with ourselves, we must admit that it is much better to be COOL :cool: than uncool!! :eek:

Cuz all the COOL :cool: guys get the chicks!!! :)

[Ou Ji]

It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how cool you look when fighting.

Everyonw knows that.
:p

[SifuAbel]

EVERYBODY KNOWS...............


its all about how many shurikens you have at the time. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

I didn't know that!!! :eek:

[WanderingMonk]

I'd say the broad sword would win. My daughter watches alot of anime, and in one of her cartoons a charecter caries a Katana, but every time it it gets serious, and he fights it magically transforms into a broad sword, so broad swords must be superior. :p

hahaaaaaaaaaaa. I never thought about it that way. I used to watch that show.

[neit]

about the sharpness arguement. i think once something can cut it almost does'nt matter "tactically" speaking. as a butcher i find any blade will cut. it just won't look that pretty. i'd look more toward balance and design, in which the 2 weapons are quite similar.

[gfx]

As Katana technology reached it's peak around the 1600s, and the Dao we generally use today was designed in the early to mid 1800s, the rifle and musket analogy is somewhat off. Indeed, metallurgical questions aside, as a piece of weapon design the dao has many advantages, being faster and having more weight at the cutting area. It's also better for thrusting and more manouverable.
I think we need to get away from the 80s cult of the Katana, and recognise that western and Chinese sword technologies were every bit as advanced (indeed, between 1870 and 1930 the japanese actually used western style swords, it was the iconic nature of the Katana that saw it re-introduced with the rise of Japanese nationalism).
Lets not forget that Liu Yun Qiao killed a Japanese swordsmaster armed with a Jian :eek:
GFX, that is a myth.
At the end of the day, armed fights are highly unpredictable, and a piece of wet ground can be more decisive than skill.

It's also a myth that Liu Yun Qiao killed a the guy. He didn't. He pointed the tip of the sword to the kendo guy's throat, and forced him to drop his weapon. Then he escaped the Japanese soldiers by jumping over the surrounding wall.

I just don't see what's all this fascination with monks and sabres. Think about it, who would you bet on? Dude who learns to use a weapon to kill since childhood, have tons of battle experience and lots of field killing experience, or some monk who practices only within this court yard in a temple, rarely fights, and never kills?

Yeah, I know some Chinese bandits / soldiers/ generals would become monks. But the question should then be " Who would win, a samurai or a professional Chinese soldier".

[paradoxbox]

Too many variables. If you break it down simply the one who gets the first stab will win, I don't know anything about Chinese swords so I can't say much, but I will say that a cut to the neck with a katana will do more damage than a straight blade will do, pound for pound, simply due to the design. Curved blades are much better cutters than straight blades.

Straight swords are superior thrusting weapons however, but katana can also be used to thrust.

Depending on the kind of Chinese sword used it could be an even match or completely unbalanced. I've seen some Chinese swords that are similar to european swords, i.e. pattern welding, extremely lightweight, flexible and resilient. Good for standing up to battlefield use but if there was any clashing of metal going on I would bet on a katana to come out on top, as it does not bend very easily, it could probably be used to stop most attacks from a thin flexible blade without much damage.

A thicker Chinese broadsword however may pose some serious problems for a katana and might even result in a bent or broken blade if used in metal on metal contact, i.e. parrying/blocking. Traditional katana are not resilient, once they take a bend they generally set and have to be repaired with a wood brace or by a sword polisher.

Chinese swords I've held have generally been lighter than most katana, some of them easier to maneuver but felt a little more flimsy. However katana are definately not what I would call unmaneuverable. But the style of cutting is very very different, the maneuverability starts at the handle (tsuka/tsuba) and works up the blade, whereas a flexible Chinese sword can be maneuvered in almost any way imaginable.

It'd come down to whoever has the most skill and maybe the longest reach.

Original post lacked imagination but it's an interesting topic to think about, if you try to do it scientifically.

[SifuAbel]

Perspective question. How many sword fights have there been in the last 1000 years? :D

[Hephaestus]

A thicker Chinese broadsword however may pose some serious problems for a katana and might even result in a bent or broken blade if used in metal on metal contact, i.e. parrying/blocking. Traditional katana are not resilient, once they take a bend they generally set and have to be repaired with a wood brace or by a sword polisher.


Traditionally, the Japanese had superior forging methods (the katana being the strongest sword of its <I>weight</I>, but the Chinese had better steel.
In an era where such a duel could theoretically happen, a combat steel broadsword would snap a katana like a twig, the katana being much like a 2-3 foot long razor blade. The katana, however, if allowed the first blow, could easily sever something vital with one stroke. The broadsword, not being honed to such a keen edge, may not have the same "lethality" with a single cut.

[bo_hou_chuan]

Perspective question. How many sword fights have there been in the last 1000 years? :D

Might be better worded last couple hundred years. Swords were still the weapon of choice in 1005.


The broadsword, not being honed to such a keen edge, may not have the same "lethality" with a single cut.

I would rather get cut by a sharp blade than a dull one. The dull edge will leave messier cut and require much more time to heal. Even the less honed edge will get through skin and arteries. In my butchering and skinning practice a sharp blade is only advantagous in helping you to not cut too much. That isn't really a concern in battle.

I good blow from either edge would cause life threatening damage. And the weight behind either blade would still place it at least to the bone. And when cutting bone, the resistance of the bone to move(locked to a solid location) and the power in the stroke has more importance than the sharpness of the blade (to a point).

But if attacked by a samurai I would first compliment him on his properly adorned historic outfit.

[paradoxbox]

I don't have a clue on the sharpness of the average Chinese sword, but a katana will slice through bone like nothing very easily if it is moving at a decent speed. The curve of the blade helps with the cut. I'm not so sure a straighter, duller blade could do it quite so easily. And while being cut with a sharp blade is better in certain cases, i.e. the wound will close up, it's not so good if the sharp blade severs your tendons, cuts your muscle in half or whatever and you lose function of the limb.

A thick Chinese broadsword hitting your average katana broadside would probably snap a katana in 2 pieces, if it hit the mune (the back of the blade) I think a katana could probably withstand anything realisticly thrown at it. A block using the ha (sharp edge) of the katana would result in either a chipped blade or a severe failure of the blade.

[SifuAbel]

Might be better worded last couple hundred years. Swords were still the weapon of choice in 1005.



Yes, exactly, how many. As in how many were there in the last 1000 years.

[SifuAbel]

"The broadsword, not being honed to such a keen edge, "

This seems unlikely, why wouldn't the sword be razor sharp?

[Royal Dragon]

Because razor sharp edges are weak, and dull quickly. It's doubtfull ANY blade was razor sharp because of that, katana or other wise.

Acceptable cutting power vs cutting edge durability is the important issue. You want it sharp enough to cut well, but dull enough to have durability for longer use between sharpenings...especially if your day consists of hacking the limbs off of your enemy.

You need a deacent cutting edge to last the full day. An edge that was razor sharp early on will have very little cutting power by break time. A good cutting edge that has NOT been honed to razor sharp perfection will last much longer, and probably be cutting quite well past lunch time, and will still be functional by the time or hero punches the clock to go home at 5:00

[Ben Gash]

Also, the carbon content required to make the steel take that kind of edge makes it very brittle. This is the cool engineering behind the Katana, in that the cutting edge is forged differently to the rest of the blade (the wavy pattern you see on katanas is traditionally from where clay was moulded around the back and sides of the blade to protect them during this stage of forging) and the mild steel core which acts as a kind of shock absorber, so you have a sword with a very sharp edge that won't snap if it hits a spear shaft.

[paradoxbox]

>Because razor sharp edges are weak, and dull quickly. It's doubtfull ANY blade was razor sharp because of that, katana or other wise.<

Katana edges are extremely sharp (literally razor sharp in many cases) and will retain their edge very well, if used against normal targets (People wearing clothing, not armor).

Many katana have edges that are around 60 on the rockwell hardness scale. The back of the blade is significantly softer. That's how katana were designed. That's a very hard edge, katana keep sharp for a long time. I think on average you could probably cut about 200 to 300 tatami before having to resharpen the blade, that's like cutting through 100 human limbs before needing to resharpen.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

VIDEO OF COW BEHEADED BY SWORD IN SINGLE STROKE. THIS GUY COULD CUT YOU SHOULDER TO HIP.

BE WARNED. I AM NOT JOKING. THIS IS INDEED A VIDEO OF A COW BEING BEHEADED BY A BLADE IN A SINGLE STROKE. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL IT'S AS REAL AS IT GETS.

IF YOU CAN WATCH COWS BE BEHEADED AT WORK ITS WORK SAFE. NO PORN.

http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Cow_beheaded_708.html

ONCE AGAIN ... THAT IS A VIDEO OF A COW GETTING ITS ****ING HEAD CHOPPED RIGHT THE **** OFF.

.... someone complained recently that i didnt give a warning when posting that mortal kombat video so i didnt want to be accused of the same thing when a warning really was in order.

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, that's from the Nepalese new year celebrations. If he cuts it off in one stroke, it'll be a good year, if not it'll be bad. Not that I believe in such things, but the guy failed in '87-'88 and there was a huge earthquake, so now they make REALLY sure they can do it. However, case in point, Kukhri aren't really that sharp (not as sharp as a Katana anyway)and are made in simple forges using old Land Rover springs. Technique counts, and beyond a certain point sharpness becomes irrelevent.

[PangQuan]

frankly, in a duel. the keeness of a blades edge will have little effect on the outcome. The fight would likely last a total amound of 10-120 seconds of actual engaged combat, all other time would be mental combat.

Depending on the level of the two individuals skill...chances are both men would die. This was actually a very common occurance with sword duels, either that or you had one very skilled person against a novice...this is how the unscathed duels happened.

An old saying.

"when two tigers meet, one will be wounded and the other will die"

This represents the situation of skill being the deciding factor in any situation, two tigers naturally posessing the same tools and skills, chances are both will be hurt, and even if one does walk away, it still may die from wounds.


The answer then to the question who would win in a Samurai wielding katana vs. Shaolin monk wielding a dao duel fight, we dont know. And cannot know. But likely both would get hurt.

[SifuAbel]

For a broadsword at least, the cutting vs. blocking ratio is negligible. Most of the blocking is done from the "belly" down. While most of the cutting is done from the belly up.

It doesn't matter which sword can cut you more if it doesn't touch you to begin with.

[Royal Dragon]

Many katana have edges that are around 60 on the rockwell hardness scale. The back of the blade is significantly softer. That's how katana were designed. That's a very hard edge, katana keep sharp for a long time. I think on average you could probably cut about 200 to 300 tatami before having to resharpen the blade, that's like cutting through 100 human limbs before needing to resharpen.

Reply]
SIXTEY!?!?! Do you have any idea how brittle that is? Every cut will be chipping the edge of the blade away, it will be dull as a butter knife in no time!!

I have found that an edge any higher than 58 does not last vey long, however they can be made insanely sharp. A softer edge , that is not razor sharp, but has good cutting power will far out last the delicate, and brittle edge of a blade hardened to 60 or more and honed razor sharp. It's a fact of metalurgy. The only way a blade is going to cut 200 - 300 tatami is if it's NOT insanely sharp to begin with. It has to be sharp, and have good cutting power and all, but the general rule is the sharper the edge, the weaker the edge. The harder the steel, the more brittle the edge, and thus the weaker, and less longevity it has.

ATS-34 is a great blade steel because it is dense, and with a rockwell of 54-56 it can be made to shave if desired, but a slighty duller & coarser grind gives it awesome cutting power, and also the added bennifit of much greater edge durability. The same can be said for the katana's design.

I just don't believe in ancient times they would be obsessed with insanely sharp razor shaveing edges, when good cutting power combined with long durability was what was needed. That insanely sharp edge thing is a modern status symbol for those posessing swords they will never do combat with. It's for the bragging rights boys.

Oh, BTW archeologicaly speaking, the technology behind the Katana's metalurgy is actually of Chinese origin, and goes back much further than most people think.

[SimonM]

However this does not matter in a single duel. To be blunt if you can chop off ONE limb in the course of a duel your opponent is done. Hell a nice deep gash along the belly, throat or inside of the thigh can do the job.

In a single duel scenario I will have to cast my lot in with the deciding factors being skill and luck. And I do tend to agree with the "two tigers" saying. I've done some fencing and some sparring with bokken and some sparring with long wooden sticks which were supposed to represent jian. And from my experience it was pretty common for both parties to take a hit unless there was a sizeable skill differential.

PS: On an almost unrelated note I picked up a new Jian. It's a dramatic improvement over the old one. I have photos on an unfinished roll in my camera right now and when I develop the roll I'll post them.

It's short, broad bladed and heavy (I'm guessing around 5 lbs... AT THE VERY LEAST twice as heavy as the last sword I posted images of). It actually reminds me of an old-style celtic sword except for the fact that it's covered in Chinese decorations.

I love it and have already consigned the old one (with it's pretty sheath and crappy steel) to the status of wall-hanger while the new one has become my practice blade.

[Scott R. Brown]

An old saying.

"when two tigers meet, one will be wounded and the other will die"

This represents the situation of skill being the deciding factor in any situation, two tigers naturally posessing the same tools and skills, chances are both will be hurt, and even if one does walk away, it still may die from wounds.


The answer then to the question who would win in a Samurai wielding katana vs. Shaolin monk wielding a dao duel fight, we dont know. And cannot know. But likely both would get hurt.

Good Point!

Conclusion:

No one wins!

[paradoxbox]

I think I agree with the idea that if 2 skilled opponents, one using a katana, the other a jian, they would likely both be injured.

There was a very skilled martial artist by the name of Takamatsu To****sugu in the late 1920's, early 30's who toured China and Mongolia searching for people to duel with and learning to master Chinese martial arts (He was already a grandmaster of about a dozen Japanese arts).

This guy encountered legends in China, the kind of people you and I would search a lifetime to find and train with. And he sparred and dueled with them. He had a very healthy respect for true shaolin styles, and wrote about it several times. He eventually went on to master something like 18 Chinese arts, both internal and external. If this guy felt that genuine shaolin styles were dangerous I am more than convinced that he realised they could mess him up as badly as he could mess them up. And those people were about as close as you can get to the description of Samurai and Monk as you can get.

[greensage22]

whoever wants it more..........

[Hephaestus]

I believe the original scenario involved a katana and a dao, not a jian, thus all mentions of curvature being in any way relevant are moot. A Chinese broadsword/saber/dao has a curve -- at least the northern blade that would have been used by a Shaolin monk.

That aside, it still all comes down to a matter of skill, dedication, experience, and luck.

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

Check out my website on classical Chinese swords:

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/


My essay on Chinese swords vs Japanese swords...

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/favorite_links.html


Sorry about the pop-ups... They are quite a nuisance from my free webhost provider... Installing pop-up blocker software does solve the problem though...

[Mr Punch]

For any of you newbies or people with short memories claiming that Japanese blade technology was superior to Chinese... we've already been schooled on that one http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37402 (here).

I'm with Ben Gash, which is why I always carry around a box of wet ground :D

Although the only reason any Japanese people (who had in fact already been abolished as a class before the period you mention Ben) carried around Western swords was to show they had embraced Westernised economics and to some degree social norms, not as any acknowledgement of any superiority of Western blades.

[paradoxbox]

The presence of 'pattern welding' or folds does not indicate the superiority of one blade over the other though.

The Japanese did that kind of folding because of the low quality iron available to the, pounding the blades over and over against removes impurities in steel (also removes carbon if done too much).

I don't know why the Chinese swords would have it other than for aesthetics, there is plenty of good iron available to make steel in China. Same folding process, very different reasons for doing it I suspect.

[Forkintheroad]

as far as who would win, I can't say, the more skilled I guess. However as far as the brittleness of a katana, your forgetting their method of creating swords. They take Iron ore (same as every other sword maker) then fold it and fold it and fold it and fold it at least a dozen times, (the brittle part). Then they take a nother piece of Iron ore and heat and work it until it soft and malable. Then they fold the brittle steel over the soft steel, re-heat it, then quench it. The curve is actually formed by the 2 grades of steel cooling at different rates wile being quenched. This forging creates a very rigid exterior with a very soft interior. In short it created an insanely sharp blade, but also has some give as well. There are reports during WWII of sheathed katanas being struck by shot gun blasts to the point the decorative sheath was destroyed but the blade was still in fairly good shape (The shot gun example was on History Channels Mail Call). By the way Inyasha's a pretty good show.

[EarthDragon]

as I love the katana. I have a short note to make.

I held a matsuyama katana in my hands was was asked to cut a piece of bamboo with it. when I did I was told I did not attack the swing or the cut correctly.

the man whom told me this said that the katnana cut is unlike other swords. it's cut comes from the technique when you come in contact with the object then twist and thrust through it. not the other way around. l realized this when he could slice the bamboo like butter and I could not forcebly cut only a into it.

has anyone ever felt a real katana? ever tried to cut with it?

[SimonM]

Held: yes.

Cut with: no.

But I have cut with a real Dao. That is always a wonderfully visceral experience. :D

[Royal Dragon]

I have held a real katana. It was incredibly balanced, and I swear i could have carve my name in someone's cheak it was so controllable. I have never held a more precision balanced sword.

It was actually heavier than my Katana, but felt lighter. I think the handle had most of the wieght or something, because it felt feather light when manuvered.