View Full Version : Let's Define 'High Level'
MonkeySlap Too
10-04-2005, 02:56 PM
What is 'high level skill'? How do you recognize it?
This is prompted by a funny interaction I had that I will not go into as it would embarass someone I'd rather not embarass. Needless to say, it had to do with an encounter with someone who *thought* they were of a 'higher level' than me, but was pretty helpless when confronted with the reality. -- And my musing afterwards about how noone is perfect at everything...
Simplicity and efficiency in accomplishing your goal.
SevenStar
10-04-2005, 03:13 PM
did he simply mean high level from an internal standpoint? there are people who say taiji is 'higher level' than longfist, for example, because internal arts are supposedly 'higher level' than external.
MonkeySlap Too
10-04-2005, 03:32 PM
That's not what I am asking, and I don't think it's what he meant, as I don't think he had what I would call 'internal skill' - although his training brother certainly does...
I'm just looking to see how people define 'high level'. I'll chip in if this goes nowhere...
Royal Dragon
10-04-2005, 04:35 PM
Anyone I know?
David Jamieson
10-04-2005, 04:42 PM
high level-
-clean, crisp, clear, concise movement
-retention of position of strength
-fluidic motion
-strong root
-able to act/react without hesitation
-not emotional in combat, relaxed but strong
-correct alignment and posture on each and every move and transistion in and out.
-able to check, evade, strike, with clear intention and speed
-no screaming :p
-no mouth agape while demonstrating
-efficient kinetics in context to combat both for real and ritualistic
probably more than that to it, but it's what comes to the top of the mind when i think about it when i watch other players.
Every style has its basic drills, intermediate and advanced moves or forms.
High level of skills usually means that the skill no matter how basic or simple is mastered or taken to a higher level.
That usually means years of practice and talents.
And not necesarily meaning the difficulty level of the moves or skills.
MonkeySlap Too
10-04-2005, 06:27 PM
No RD - no one you know.
If a move, you master well in all aspects, you then have the high level of skills for that move.
In the old time, there was always a persuit for a single move that beats all.
The truth of the matter is that any move if mastered well is the move that may beat many.
1. Yang Lu Chan (Tai Chi) used Ban Lan Chui defeated many.
2. You know who used single palm change or Dan Huan Zhang ( Ba Gua ) defeated many.
3. You know who used half a step Beng Quan (Xing Yi) defeated many.
4. You know who used bending elbow or Bie Zhou to throw (Shuai Jiao) defeated many.
on and on.
So ask your self. What is the move you prefer or master well to have high level of skill with?
define the move? you then know the skill you need to have.
If a western boxer has high level of skill in left upper cut, he or she uses other moves as tactics and strategy or set up so that he or she may use the left upper cut to KO and win the fight.
etc etc
:D
high level-
-clean, crisp, clear, concise movement
-retention of position of strength
-fluidic motion
-strong root
-able to act/react without hesitation
-not emotional in combat, relaxed but strong
-correct alignment and posture on each and every move and transistion in and out.
-able to check, evade, strike, with clear intention and speed
-no screaming :p
-no mouth agape while demonstrating
-efficient kinetics in context to combat both for real and ritualistic
probably more than that to it, but it's what comes to the top of the mind when i think about it when i watch other players.
all this boils down to simplicity and efficiency.
just saying.
rogue
10-04-2005, 09:13 PM
all this boils down to simplicity and efficiency.
just saying. Too much to the point to be high level. Doctor it up so it's not so clear and more high level sounding.
KC Elbows
10-04-2005, 09:19 PM
Does it have anything to do with testicular retraction?
If so, I was half a master until the age of three.
Too much to the point to be high level. Doctor it up so it's not so clear and more high level sounding.
crap, maybe that's why i don't have any students, i don't talk 'high level' enough.
ok, c'mon MST, don't keep us waiting on your opinion....
Mr Punch
10-05-2005, 03:55 AM
Simplicity and efficiency in accomplishing your goal.Does that mean if someone can perform a complicated move efficiently at speed on a resisting opponent he is not high level?
What about a complicated series of simple moves?
I'm not buying simplicity as a requisite.
I would go for effectiveness and transmission.
By effectiveness, I'm making the distinction that the end result is more important than the means of getting there as distinct to efficiency, where the minimisation of time, energy and complicatedness is also important. I would qualify this by saying that if we are talking about an interaction between two people of supposedly equally high level the quicker and simpler the technique the more effective therefore effective and efficiency take on the same meaning.
By transmission, I would say can s/he transmit what s/he wants to... if s/he just wants to beat you this amounts to just can s/he punch you out/take you down (if the opponent is also high level, this amounts to provoking a response other than necessarily falling to the ground! :D ), if it is a counter even if it fails (the other person is also high level) s/he transmits the intention and causes a further countering reaction, or if it is teaching s/he can transmit whatever point s/he is trying to make easily to most people.
The fact that I've just failed to effectively transmit wtf I'm on about would therefore indicate my level... :rolleyes:
Now back to defining the colour blue!;)
TaiChiBob
10-05-2005, 04:12 AM
Greetings..
Minimum effort, maximum result..
Be well...
Ben Gash
10-05-2005, 04:14 AM
There's a qoute from Bruce Lee that goes "Before I started martial arts, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I began training in martial arts, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. Now that I have been doing martial arts for some time, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
I think this is what Oso is getting at. It's the ability to transcend technique and see everything in terms of principles. This came home to me about 2 years ago, when I realised there were no complicated moves. Everything is just a collection of vectors. Some moves are physically difficult to perform, but nothing is that intellectually complicated. It's all a variation of a movement you learned in your first year. It was at this point that I realised I was truly ready to teach. When I reach the next level I'll let you know what that is ;)
Does that mean if someone can perform a complicated move efficiently at speed on a resisting opponent he is not high level?
What about a complicated series of simple moves?
I'm not buying simplicity as a requisite.
I would go for effectiveness and transmission.
By effectiveness, I'm making the distinction that the end result is more important than the means of getting there as distinct to efficiency, where the minimisation of time, energy and complicatedness is also important. I would qualify this by saying that if we are talking about an interaction between two people of supposedly equally high level the quicker and simpler the technique the more effective therefore effective and efficiency take on the same meaning.
By transmission, I would say can s/he transmit what s/he wants to... if s/he just wants to beat you this amounts to just can s/he punch you out/take you down (if the opponent is also high level, this amounts to provoking a response other than necessarily falling to the ground! :D ), if it is a counter even if it fails (the other person is also high level) s/he transmits the intention and causes a further countering reaction, or if it is teaching s/he can transmit whatever point s/he is trying to make easily to most people.
The fact that I've just failed to effectively transmit wtf I'm on about would therefore indicate my level... :rolleyes:
Now back to defining the colour blue!;)
LOL, I just wasted 10 minutes replying...not that your post isn't worthy of a response but I'm not going to get involved in wordy debates over simplicity and efficiency.
HA! That was my "Tiger Evades Trap" move
count
10-05-2005, 04:38 AM
When you execute an action without conscious thought, effortlessly, with consistency, you've reached a high level of a skill. Most people never get it, even though they sucessfully learned to walk, ride a bike, or swim, for examples. When we get older, the complex distractions of life prevent the focus necessary to master the simplest tasks. In general, if they "thought" they were a higher level than you, they had already lost.
TaiChiBob
10-05-2005, 05:01 AM
Greetings..
Count has a good perspective.. when your art is an "internalized", natural response you can achieve maximum results with a minimum of effort.. this is exemplified by Oso's "simplicity and efficiency.. "high level" is difficult to describe, easy to recognize.. i once heard it described as "elegant power, so effortless and simple that it arrives unnoticed".. i liked that..
Be well..
count
10-05-2005, 05:21 AM
Greetings..
Count has a good perspective.. when your art is an "internalized", natural response you can achieve maximum results with a minimum of effort.. this is exemplified by Oso's "simplicity and efficiency.. "high level" is difficult to describe, easy to recognize.. i once heard it described as "elegant power, so effortless and simple that it arrives unnoticed".. i liked that..
Be well..
Thanks Bob,
I just hope Joe wasn't talking about me.:eek: :D :cool:
bo_hou_chuan
10-05-2005, 05:57 AM
Doesn't higher level mean you are standing on something or are upstairs? :rolleyes:
I have never really thought about skills as higher or lower level. I just looked at them as understood (implying competence) or not understood. With varying degrees of not understood. In looking at what other have been posting, higher level people are understanding the given skillset.
A punch is a punch until it is put into context. Context displays the practitioners understanding.
Doesn't higher level mean you are standing on something or are upstairs? :rolleyes:
that's generally, but not always, regarded as a tactical advantage;)
I have never really thought about skills as higher or lower level. I just looked at them as understood (implying competence) or not understood. With varying degrees of not understood. In looking at what other have been posting, higher level people are understanding the given skillset.
A punch is a punch until it is put into context. Context displays the practitioners understanding.
good post.
Royal Dragon
10-05-2005, 06:32 AM
I don't know how to define "High Level" in Martial arts becasue I have never had it. However, I can put a car through a spot not much bigger than the car itself at 140 (did it last summer). I can do alot of things with a car most people can't, at speeds most would be afraid to drive, so I think it's safe to say i have a high level of driving skill.
Now, in essence, I have the ability to feel my car through the course. For me it's not a sense of perfroming the skill of changing lanes, or even parking or what not. i just look where I want my car to go, envision how i want it to behave, and it goes. If I want to 4 wheel drift through gravel at 50, and then end up parked pefectly in the spot as if I pulled in normally, I just float with the moment, and my car ends up doing what I wanted. I have run from Aurora to Oak law at 120-140 the whole way, on and off the shoulder, and performing hard lane changes with a calmness, and almost placid state of mind that one might have during a more relaxed activity. Even when the car sld sideways entering the curb darn near 100 becasue I just know that the car is not going to spin out.
The mind set I am in when I do this is very unique, and I can't quite describe it other than to say I am in a state of super awareness, and feeling an incredible "Connectiveness" to my car at the time. I refer to this as the "Racecar mind".
I have felt it on rare occasions when performong martial arts, little flashes of it here and there...just enough to know that consistantly acheiving the "race car mind" in martial arts is synonomys with acheiving a high level of skills as well.
It's interesting to note, if I can't become this state of mind, I can't drive much better than anyone else. Only when I'm floating in it can I do some of the seemingly impossible things that I have done. It's not something I set out to do. It just happenes to me, especially if I'm in a "playful" mood. Ironically, if I *Try* to make it happen, the opposite occures, and I become tense, and my fear will not even allow me to attempt things that are even remotly near the extremes I think nothing of when I am in that state of mind.
Maybe high level in Martial arts is the same thing, like a complete integration of mind, body, thought and action allowing us to achieve incredible things in real time with very little effort.
Royal Dragon
10-05-2005, 06:37 AM
Of coourse, I could just be quite insane, and thearfore protected by God.
MonkeySlap Too
10-05-2005, 06:59 AM
Count,
Hah! Heck when we met, I was so exhausted I was lucky that I could stand up! What could I judge? Posing for photos kung? Eating fast food aesthetics? Your killing me, man...
No, nobody on this board.... But that was funny...
RD - Yeah, well it might be In Hyuk Suh looking over you, as I read on another board he is quoted as saying he's 'better than god,'
Sifu Darkfist
10-05-2005, 08:02 AM
I think i can guess who currently defines high level martial arts, the u.s. army rangers/ seals/ special forces/ 10th infantry division.
By definition the high level of combat are those that have killed multiple times, or at least maimed. No offense meant to anyone but what we do is not the combat of the old days. There is no Boxer rebellion currently. Many of us have families and only wish to achieve the best physical ability that we can for health and stress relief (and ok ok if we ever find a time machine do battle the old fashioned way).
I leave the high level of combat to my best friend Gaston. I am very small and worthless but he is much smaller and infinitely better at dispatching people than I.
At .45 calibers Gaston Glock gets my vote.
But even he pales in comparison to my fbi swat friends Mp5 or M4.
There is always someone better. Just train and be healthy.
bing bang pow
10-05-2005, 08:18 AM
I think that "High Level" usually exsists only in our minds. In reality, it is all comming from our ego and really has nothing to do with skill at all. If you learn and understand your art, movement and self defence as completely as you can, you are on the right track. Remember, there is always someone better then you.
Mr Punch
10-05-2005, 08:20 AM
HA! That was my "Tiger Evades Trap" moveThat's gotta be a low level move!:p :D
I wasn't trying to be particularly picky.
I'll stick to effectiveness and transmission.
Ben Gash, great description, which kind of makes me think simplicity can also be boiled down to effectiveness.
And I'll stick by the idea that high level is a relationship, not necessarily an absolute, which fits with Bou Hou Chan's context.
That's gotta be a low level move!:p :D
of course. i am bear of little brain.
I wasn't trying to be particularly picky.
me either. I had a great response all typed out before I realized what i was doing. ;)
I'll stick to effectiveness and transmission.
Ben Gash, great description, which kind of makes me think simplicity can also be boiled down to effectiveness.
well, something complicated could be effective as well. but, it generally isn't against an opponent of similar experience.
And I'll stick by the idea that high level is a relationship, not necessarily an absolute, which fits with Bou Hou Chan's context.
agree with that too.
now, I wish MST would enlighten us.....
Ray Pina
10-05-2005, 08:53 AM
What is 'high level skill'? How do you recognize it?
This is prompted by a funny interaction I had that I will not go into as it would embarass someone I'd rather not embarass. Needless to say, it had to do with an encounter with someone who *thought* they were of a 'higher level' than me, but was pretty helpless when confronted with the reality. -- And my musing afterwards about how noone is perfect at everything...
I would define high-level as something that goes beyond the audinary but in a way that brings value.
For instance, most people are quite satisfied hitting the heavy bag with the understanding of hit harder, hit more often = wins.
A higher-level aproach may be to withhold hitting all together and focus instead on capturing the enemy's weapons first, securing them, controlling them AND then hit. Not have to hit so hard, but hit well and smooth.
Now, maybe you beat the guy who is training this. Maybe you are much bigger, maybe you were hocked up on drugs, maybe the other guy just isn't that good at his method yet. But one needs to look at the aproach, the theory, honestly and compare if the method is sound against all types, ages and sizes, not just those that are equal or less.
shirkers1
10-05-2005, 10:06 AM
To me high level is a combo of things listed before etc.
The ability to act/react without thinking in advance as to what you need to apply to the situation.
The ability to actually execute the skills trained in a combat situation. (you don't have to kill to be in combat) Most street fights aren't meant to be a kill or be killed situation. But it is combat, physical harm is intended in one form or another.
Also High level can be overall or individual. An overall high level of skill, being well rounded in all aspects of your skills. Or someone could be at a high level of individual skill like physical stamina, etc.
Just because you have high level skills doesn't mean you will be the victor as said before. There is always someone better or able to capitalize on a mistake or certain circumstance before you.
brothernumber9
10-05-2005, 10:22 AM
I think it's just subjective perception. Especially when the perception is from someone who thinks their own skill(s) deosn't suck.
A person can observe another and in camparison to themselves the subject's skill may be higher/faster/stronger/better, etc. That observer may then think per say "the person is of high skill".
Anther person can observe the same subject and think differently, that the subject is slower/weaker/of decent or lower skill.
Just take a sample from one of the many names that have incited heated discussion on these boards such as Paulie Zink, Doc Fai Wong, Gin Foon Mark, Cung Le, Sean Liu, Frank Yee, Wing Lam, Shi Yan Ming, Sin The, Randy Williams, Ark Wong, on and on and on. No one is safe. The majority of opinions (for most of the subjects) would put these individuals at a "high level" of skill, yet there are dissenters for each one.
To a degree "high level" skill just comes down to popular opinion.
Judge Pen
10-05-2005, 10:42 AM
Context is key. As we can see from the response of these posts, high level for a internal stylist might be different than high level for muay thai or long fist. I keep going back to Oso's definition, which I'll sum up in one, over-arching, word:
Efficacy
Now I'll sit back and wait for MS2 to finish the story and pray it doesn't involve an SD person. :D
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