Bad hand dropping habbit.

[chaiwai]

Here is the question.
From what I seen, every one drops the hand when they throw a rear leg round house kick. IF the right leg kick is thrown the right hand drops.
Pro-kung fu fighters do it, pro Mui thai fighter do it. Old grand pas do it.
I personally throw full power rear leg kicks and my hands don't move. They stay up near my face. I try droping the hand, and no power was added or speed or accuracy or anything.
I am about to go on the revolution, and begin to condemn the hand dropping habbit.
Can anyone prove me otherwise?
Than you.

[Oso]

is that like a hobbit that can't stop pickpocketing?

[David Jamieson]

Here is the question.
From what I seen, every one drops the hand when they throw a rear leg round house kick. IF the right leg kick is thrown the right hand drops.
Pro-kung fu fighters do it, pro Mui thai fighter do it. Old grand pas do it.
I personally throw full power rear leg kicks and my hands don't move. They stay up near my face. I try droping the hand, and no power was added or speed or accuracy or anything.
I am about to go on the revolution, and begin to condemn the hand dropping habbit.
Can anyone prove me otherwise?
Than you.


Not everyone does it. Some people do it to add extra twist from the hip, like a counter balance. It's just another technique among many. They're only bad if you lose, they're good if you win. I've seen a lot of fighters win with sloppy technique but good power. Go figure, the horizon gets further away. :p

[bo_hou_chuan]

Here is the question.
From what I seen, every one drops the hand when they throw a rear leg round house kick. IF the right leg kick is thrown the right hand drops.
Pro-kung fu fighters do it, pro Mui thai fighter do it. Old grand pas do it.
I personally throw full power rear leg kicks and my hands don't move. They stay up near my face. I try droping the hand, and no power was added or speed or accuracy or anything.
I am about to go on the revolution, and begin to condemn the hand dropping habbit.
Can anyone prove me otherwise?
Than you.

The "counter turn" at the waste is what drops the hand. That is used to help generate more power as you are using the added twisting force from your upper body as well as your lower body.

[johnyk]

I know what you are talking about.
I move my arms, but I don't let them hang.
If some one does a right rear leg round kick.
do this 1. left leg thrust front kick or side kick
2. Right leg ex kick.
That will teach them.

[Judge Pen]

I used to do that until I got hit in the face a few time. Now I keep my hands up. Pain will break a lot of bad habits.

[EarthDragon]

what you described is a sloppy technique and a bad habit!

this is mainly due to the teacher not nipping this in the bud and the student when learning how to generate power relied on (as david said) counter balance.

This is sloppy and never should the hands leave from the guard when protecting the face.
if all that power is redirected and the opponent comes into attack what good is the hand doing down at the side of your body? nothing.

A good kicker does not use the arms in what I call a slot machine movement. this is like a boxer dropping his guard when throwing a punch. a sloppy mistake.

[bo_hou_chuan]

I took this to mean a slight drop of the hand. You are right, never drop the hand enough to weaken your defense. But that slight dip (less then an inch) will be noticed just in turning your shoulders opposite the kicking direction.

[EarthDragon]

bo hou chuan.
understood. and I agree with a slight drop. however you said

The "counter turn" at the waste is what drops the hand. That is used to help generate more power as you are using the added twisting force from your upper body as well as your lower body.

This is not the way to generate power. you can generate power whilst keeping the upper body and arms in a guard position, though harder this is the proper way.

the same way it is not neccessary to wind up in order to genertate power in a punch.

[David Jamieson]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is outrageously sloppy to use counter weight when kicking.

Attack and defend at the same time will impede one or the other. You can't have your cake and eat it too in other words.

I've learned forms that drop the hands when kicking. It's actually a legit technique.

Now, if you were doing a front toe push kick, you can leave your hands up.
If you're shoveling, again, keep em up.

If you are in range, it's probably a good idea to keep your guard up. BUt as we've seen in numerous videos of chinese martial arts fights, there seems to be a lot of hand dropping, not keeping the guard up etc etc. The 'bagua fight' video is a perfect example of fighters who don't get the importance of keeping your guard up.

That macao match is another one and teh list goes on and on and on. In theory it is sound to keep the guard up and ready as much as possible. IN practice, it seems to be the opposite with many kungfu fighters. Go figure.

[TaichiMantis]

bo hou chuan.
understood. and I agree with a slight drop. however you said

The "counter turn" at the waste is what drops the hand. That is used to help generate more power as you are using the added twisting force from your upper body as well as your lower body.

This is not the way to generate power. you can generate power whilst keeping the upper body and arms in a guard position, though harder this is the proper way.

the same way it is not neccessary to wind up in order to genertate power in a punch.

I agree, we were taught never to drop the guard on a roundhouse.

[bo_hou_chuan]

you can generate power whilst keeping the upper body and arms in a guard position,

Yep, we are agreeing. :) Still in guard position, as you turn your front shoulder back, it drops your hands, it also drops your shoulder. I guess I am talking about very slight drops though. If you drop your hands to your waste when kicking, good things only happen to your opponent.

[brothernumber9]

Most MA drop the closer hand to the opponent on roundhouse kicks. I would hardly say it is sloppy or wrong. I personally don't do it, but I see the advantages of using the hand as a counterbalance. the torque allows the kicker to regain balance faster and not overcommit forward weight into the kick. Keeping both hands up makes this more difficult in my opinion.

It also arguably makes the round kick faster as well. Visualizing it, it may seem easy to counter, one may think "oh his/her hand has dropped, I'll just close in and hit him/her where/when they are open." but it is much much much easier thought and said than done. Some people can roundhouse kick nearly on par with the speed of a jab.

[Judge Pen]

Some people can roundhouse kick nearly on par with the speed of a jab.

Yeah, I hate those people, but it's just jealousy. For my style (personal style that is) I don't kick above the solar plexus often. Occassionally I will, but it's more to close distance and distract so I can crowd and punch.

[EarthDragon]

brothernumber 9

Im confused you said that you didnt think it was sloppy or wrong however you then said
the torque allows the kicker to regain balance faster and not overcommit forward weight into the kick. Keeping both hands up makes this more difficult in my opinion.

this is my point. you should not rely on your hands for balance though it is easier. As I had said, and if your kicking is good and taught properly you will not overcommit your forward weight and not have to use the hands to counter. this in turn keeps the hands protecting the face.

We love to fight kickers as when they do drop the hand it is very easy to redircet and attack the face and while our opponent is balancing on one leg and in this sloppy case with only one hand protecting his face easier to hit.

Again a good boxer does not have counter his punches when properly executed. this should be alike in MA wether we are using the hands or the feet. again I stress it is harder but more correct and advanced.

[Willow Palm]

The only time I've seen the hand drop for a roundhouse is to protect the groin and that was all. I can't visualize gaining more power by throwing the shoulder in addition, just poor balance and an open door to the upper body.

Warren

[SevenStar]

Here is the question.
From what I seen, every one drops the hand when they throw a rear leg round house kick. IF the right leg kick is thrown the right hand drops.
Pro-kung fu fighters do it, pro Mui thai fighter do it. Old grand pas do it.
I personally throw full power rear leg kicks and my hands don't move. They stay up near my face. I try droping the hand, and no power was added or speed or accuracy or anything.
I am about to go on the revolution, and begin to condemn the hand dropping habbit.
Can anyone prove me otherwise?
Than you.

I haven't read all of this thread yet, so this may have been said, but dropping the hand acts like a counterbalance on the body. Notice that when thai fighters do it, they also raise the opposite hand, covering the face with it. The face is then guarded by the arm on one side and the shoulder on the other.

[SevenStar]

.......

The only time I've seen the hand drop for a roundhouse is to protect the groin and that was all.


huh?

[SevenStar]

what you described is a sloppy technique and a bad habit!

this is mainly due to the teacher not nipping this in the bud and the student when learning how to generate power relied on (as david said) counter balance.

This is sloppy and never should the hands leave from the guard when protecting the face.
if all that power is redirected and the opponent comes into attack what good is the hand doing down at the side of your body? nothing.

A good kicker does not use the arms in what I call a slot machine movement. this is like a boxer dropping his guard when throwing a punch. a sloppy mistake.

it's really only sloppy when you don't perform or understand the full kicking technique. When you do the kick, you step out at an angle - this is to get you out of the way of the opponent's cross, which is a common counter to the roundhouse. Also, as stated above, you bring the opposite arm to the side of the face with the dropped arm, protecting it.

[SevenStar]

Again a good boxer does not have counter his punches when properly executed.

there is no punch that generates the forces that a roundhouse kick does. You really can't compare the two.

[greensage22]

In my years of practice, I've noticed several things
1. power for your kick comes from hip movement and inner thigh strengh/speed
2. the students i've noticed that drop thier gaurd tend to kick to high, and as a result drop thier guards to create a counter balance, which is bad control
however practice makes perfect.

after they catch a few to the side of the face they should learn.

[SevenStar]

guarding with the opposite hand prevents catching them in the face. thai boxers are an example of those who don't kick high when they do this.

[EarthDragon]

seven star , couple coments to what you have stated

[B]there is no punch that generates the forces that a roundhouse kick does. You really can't compare the two.

it is not the force generated that I was comparing. it was a sloppy and begginer mistake that is made.



it's really only sloppy when you don't perform or understand the full kicking technique. When you do the kick, you step out at an angle - this is to get you out of the way of the opponent's cross, which is a common counter to the roundhouse. Also, as stated above, you bring the opposite arm to the side of the face with the dropped arm, protecting it.

This is my point. if you use the arm as a counter balance you arent performing/understadning the kick. however obviously you do not have to step out an an agle to perfrom the kick dont know why you said that? even with the oppostie arm progtecing the face you are relying on 1 hand to protect the entire upper gate. not a god idea.




I[B] haven't read all of this thread yet, so this may have been said, but dropping the hand acts like a counterbalance on the body. Notice that when thai fighters do it, they also raise the opposite hand, covering the face with it. The face is then guarded by the arm on one side and the shoulder on the other.


again using the arm for counter balance is a BAD habit! better balance within the kicker is all that is needed. this is sloppy but I guess it depends on what level your are in your training.
But if I ever see my studetns using the arm for anything like this I nip it in the bud immedialty.

Or hit the side of the face when they do it and then they learn much quicker.

[MasterKiller]

again using the arm for counter balance is a BAD habit! better balance within the kicker is all that is needed. this is sloppy but I guess it depends on what level your are in your training.
But if I ever see my studetns using the arm for anything like this I nip it in the bud immedialty.

Well, the disconnect here is the difference between 7*'s Muay Thai roundhouse and Earthdragon's CMA roundhouse. Earthdragon is explaining things according to CMA mechanics, but 7* is relating the mechanics of the Muay Thai kick, which is different, much stronger, but prone to imbalance you because of the way it's thrown.

CMA roundhouse = more balance
MT roundhouse = more power

I've been hit with both in the legs. The MT one is the only that made me sit down and take a break. :D

[David Jamieson]

Who here has a roundhouse kick in their forms?

I am not certain that a roundhouse is part of chinese martial arts and has been adopted into them. I certainly don't have any forms that contain a roundhouse kick. Lot's of other types of kicks, but no roundhouses. Haven't seen them in other cma styles either.

So, I am not certain chinese martial artists should be dictating to Muay Thai guys how to throw their roundhouse kicks. :p

[Judge Pen]

Who here has a roundhouse kick in their forms?

I am not certain that a roundhouse is part of chinese martial arts and has been adopted into them. I certainly don't have any forms that contain a roundhouse kick. Lot's of other types of kicks, but no roundhouses. Haven't seen them in other cma styles either.

So, I am not certain chinese martial artists should be dictating to Muay Thai guys how to throw their roundhouse kicks. :p


Good point. I've seen one form done with front kicks and the same form (more or less) that will have a round-house thrown in where a front kick used to be.

[David Jamieson]

It's also worth thinking about the contact point in a roundhouse kick.

Do you hit with your instep? Your shin? Your inside ridge?

Do you launch in a arc? Can you cut downward with the kick? Do you just fan it in etc etc. There's a few ways to do this kick and each has a different result and power issuance. The downward cutting arcing version is probably the most powerful iteration of this kick. imo.

When I was at the last kungfu kwoon in my old home town I was taught a version of the roundhouse where the instep was used as the contact point, the knee was used to point the target and the kick was snapped back. It was a quick little kick, but to do it with any juice takes practice practice practice. The Muay thai version arcs, drives through and cuts down and as well uses the shin as the contact point. Frankly, it is much more powerful and mechanically can be a little trickier to do. You have to thrust your hip and get the whole gitalong going like a whip. Once you get the shape of it, the power issuance in that version is pretty dang good. Just saying.

[Judge Pen]

It is taught at my school the same way you are describing it. We are taught to use the top of the foot or the ball of the foot as a striking surface. The ball is harder and preferred, but if you are wearing shoes, it is difficult to curl the toes back.

[David Jamieson]

My current training partner who is a black tiger stylist uses a roundhouse where he strikes with the ball of the foot and curls the toes back.

I found this interesting because this is something I learned in Karate and didn't expect from a hk kungfu man. lol.

It's still a good kick and puts force into a small area, this can cause some damage. :p

I am pretty sure, the ball of the foot version comes out of Karate styles and has been adopted into chinese MA and Korean as well.

My partners use of the kick in this variation was my first encounter with a CMA-ist using a roundhouse in that fashion.

Judge, as you are an SD guy, there is a lot of Japanese influence in that style and it really shows. That's probably why you will see variants of JMA inside of it's expressions of cma.

[Judge Pen]

My current training partner who is a black tiger stylist uses a roundhouse where he strikes with the ball of the foot and curls the toes back.

I found this interesting because this is something I learned in Karate and didn't expect from a hk kungfu man. lol.

It's still a good kick and puts force into a small area, this can cause some damage. :p

I am pretty sure, the ball of the foot version comes out of Karate styles and has been adopted into chinese MA and Korean as well.

My partners use of the kick in this variation was my first encounter with a CMA-ist using a roundhouse in that fashion.

Judge, as you are an SD guy, there is a lot of Japanese influence in that style and it really shows. That's probably why you will see variants of JMA inside of it's expressions of cma.

I can't disagree with that. The degree and the origins etc may be arguable, but I believe that many things got mixed together in that melting pot of Indonesia where SD came from. Not that it's bad, but it is different in some respects.

For what it's worth, I've seen some mantis stylist use a low round-house kick in their forms. I hadn't heard of any other CMA hitting with the ball of their foot before your analogy, but I found that to be interesting. The ball of the foot strike makes much more sense if you are barefoot. Does your friend practice barefoot? I recently watched a tape of an old kung fu demonstration in the late 1960s in California and a mantis fellow (I forgot his name--Sean a little help) did his forms barefoot and with a black gi on. :eek:

[SevenStar]

seven star , couple coments to what you have stated
however obviously you do not have to step out an an agle to perfrom the kick dont know why you said that? even with the oppostie arm progtecing the face you are relying on 1 hand to protect the entire upper gate. not a god idea.





When you do the kick, you step out at an angle - this is to get you out of the way of the opponent's cross, which is a common counter to the roundhouse.

you don't HAVE to step out at an angle, no. But if you don't, you have a much greater chance of eating a counter punch.

[MasterKiller]

Who here has a roundhouse kick in their forms?

I am not certain that a roundhouse is part of chinese martial arts and has been adopted into them. I certainly don't have any forms that contain a roundhouse kick. Lot's of other types of kicks, but no roundhouses. Haven't seen them in other cma styles either.

So, I am not certain chinese martial artists should be dictating to Muay Thai guys how to throw their roundhouse kicks. :p

My fourth form has low (below the knee) roundhouse kicks. The shin is the contact point. However, the motion is more "Thai" style in that there is no chamber.

[SevenStar]

Well, the disconnect here is the difference between 7*'s Muay Thai roundhouse and Earthdragon's CMA roundhouse. Earthdragon is explaining things according to CMA mechanics, but 7* is relating the mechanics of the Muay Thai kick, which is different, much stronger, but prone to imbalance you because of the way it's thrown.

CMA roundhouse = more balance
MT roundhouse = more power

I've been hit with both in the legs. The MT one is the only that made me sit down and take a break. :D

True dat...

[David Jamieson]

mk- is it a tripping or sweeping kick? Those have more of a hook and pull to them at the end in how I learned them.

What style do you practice again?

[MasterKiller]

mk- is it a tripping or sweeping kick? Those have more of a hook and pull to them at the end in how I learned them.

What style do you practice again?

Not a trip or a sweep. Its a kick to the knee/shin, using your shin as the contact point. Basically, you swing your back leg into their shin with no chamber. The kick is done 4 times in the form, and is supposed to buckle the knee to set up the next move, which is a trip/throw.

Unlike a MT kick, though, we don't turn/rotate the hips.

I'm a Chang Chuan guy, but with a disclaimer: My long fist left China in the 40's and didn't look back. :p

[EarthDragon]

MASTER KILLER, Not true at all. you said

[B]Well, the disconnect here is the difference between 7*'s Muay Thai roundhouse and Earthdragon's CMA roundhouse. Earthdragon is explaining things according to CMA mechanics, but 7* is relating the mechanics of the Muay Thai kick, which is different, much stronger, but prone to imbalance you because of the way it's thrown.
[B]CMA roundhouse = more balance
MT roundhouse = more power[/B

I totally disagree! the kick is the kick, it doesnt matter what style is doing it! it depends on the person. so if your staement is true a karate kick is more powerful than a tae kown do kick?

balance and power have to do ONLY with the training agility and person. It has nothing to do with the style.

I know a shorynji stylist who has incrediable power and alance is it becuse of his style?

david , I agree with the ball of the foot. I learned to kick like this in GoJuRyu. it is much harder to execute but small point of focus. I have not seen this in CMA.

sevenstar, sorry i thought you said you had to sept at an agle to exucute, however you then agreed with master killer on the thai verses CMA kick statment. hmmmmmmmmmm

[MasterKiller]

sevenstar, sorry i thought you said you had to sept at an agle to exucute, however you then agreed with master killer on the thai verses CMA kick statment. hmmmmmmmmmm

ED, it's just not the same kick. The Muay Thai roundhouse is a different kick than a CMA roundhouse. The mechanics are completely different. You don't step out on a CMA kick because you don't have to...you can keep your balance with your hands up.

However, you should step out with a Thai kick because it's thrown differently, so much so that you need to use your arms to counter-balance it, which leaves your face open (unless you guard with forward hand).

[brothernumber9]

Hung Fut has roundhouse kicks in several forms.

[Mr Punch]

... the kick is the kick, it doesnt matter what style is doing it! Not true, as the differing description of the kicks should tell you... or are you going to tell Seven and other practioners of Thai kicks that their way is wrong?! :D :p

balance and power have to do ONLY with the training agility and person. It has nothing to do with the style. Bollocks. It has a lot to do with the person but of course it also has to do with the style.

I know a shorynji stylist who has incrediable power and alance is it becuse of his style? Partly the style, partly the person.

[SevenStar]

I totally disagree! the kick is the kick, it doesnt matter what style is doing it! it depends on the person. so if your staement is true a karate kick is more powerful than a tae kown do kick?

mechanically, those two kicks are similar. Neither are anything like the thai roundhouse.


balance and power have to do ONLY with the training agility and person. It has nothing to do with the style.

a little woman like ming yue hits you with a baseball bat. A big guy like me hits you with a wet towel (think of the rat tail fights we had as kids) which hurts more?

If I take the bat and flick you with it (think a bunt) and she hits you like she's trying to hit a grand slam, which hurts more?

I hit you with a wiffle ball bat, she hits you with a louisville slugger. Who will hurt you more?

[Mr Punch]

Now you're making it up... wtf is 'wiffle ball'!?

[SevenStar]

you've never heard of wiffle ball?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search.html/104-2328831-8202327?me=&node=3375301&keywords=wiffle%20ball%20bat

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search.html/ref=br_ss_hs/104-2328831-8202327?platform=gurupa&url=node%3D3375301&keywords=wiffle+ball

[MasterKiller]

So I suppose the Beastie Boys' song "Paul Revere" was over your head?


The Sheriff's after me
for what I did to his daughter.
I did it like this
I did it like that
I did it with a wiffle ball bat.

[Mr Punch]

I love my made-up friends in made-up countries with their made-up games and made-up kungfu kicks!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

GROUP HUG!

:D

[EarthDragon]

sevenstar, and master killer. please explain what you think the difference is.
i.e
we have a low mantis kick aka (roundhouse). it is thrown exactly they way they do it in a thailand. america and vietnam. we turn the hip, kick the outside of the quatrcept, focus point is the tarcel bones of the foot.

so you mean to tell me because I practice CMA my kick is better balanced but less powerful???????????????????????

do you hear how obsurd this sounds?

can anyone else chime in here perhaps I am nto explaining this correctly. I dont care how powerful your kick is or how much you wind up or how fast it is executed. if you have to use your hand to balance your body this is not proper. and sloppy.

if you drop your guard doing this this ia a BAD HABIT! weather or not your study different arts, different countries, different kicks.

[MasterKiller]

Do you throw the kick so hard that, if you miss, you have to spin around in a complete circle to recover?

http://www.masterkelbowko.com/technique/round.htm

[EarthDragon]

master K
YES definatly......... in sparring that is never in a street fight obviously....however when my body spun my hands were still protecting my handsome face:)

but your link there said
Thai boxers possess the most powerful martial arts kick in the world. No other martial art throws the roundhouse kick in the same manner. Once of the distinguishing traits of the Muay Thai roundhouse kick is that fighters kick with the shinbone instead of the foot. It's highly possible to knock out or even cripple an opponent with a single blow to the neck or jaw.

I can find a shotokan link that says shotokan karate has the most powerful punches of all teh martial arts.

[Judge Pen]

I wish I were computer savy so I could post, side-by-side, comparision clips of a well-executed MT kick vs. a well-executed CMA/JMA/KMA roundhouse kick. :(

While ED may not have a difference in his style, there most certainly is a major difference in body mechanics.

[MasterKiller]

but your link there said
Thai boxers possess the most powerful martial arts kick in the world. No other martial art throws the roundhouse kick in the same manner. Once of the distinguishing traits of the Muay Thai roundhouse kick is that fighters kick with the shinbone instead of the foot. It's highly possible to knock out or even cripple an opponent with a single blow to the neck or jaw.

I can find a shotokan link that says shotokan karate has the most powerful punches of all teh martial arts.

I didn't write that copy. I was just posting the pics for argument's sake.

Pictures of your CMA roundhouse for comparison would be appreciated, as everyone else here including me knows the usual CMA roundhouse is done by chambering the leg and snapping the foot out.

[EarthDragon]

Judge pen,
I dont want to get off topic. or be mis- quoted.
I am not saying theres no difference in body mechanics between different styles.

I am saying that within the difference it is not a good habit to drop that hands or rely on using the arms for balance no matter how hard you throw a kick.


thai or not, japanese or not korean or not this is a bad habit. but are we comparing the sport of thai fighting or kicking fundmentals?

[EarthDragon]

Master K
perhaps I am being misquoted or I explained myself wrongly. if so I apologize.

I am not comparing the mechanics or fundamentals of any one kick.
but the fact remains a kick is a kick.
if you are dropping yor hands to make up for loss of balance or to push the kick harder or to wind up, this is improper. and should be addressed at the moment it is done by the student.

a good teacher should see these habits and break them . it is the same as lowering your chamber when learning how to punch. everyone's styles chambers is different however it is still a bad habit to drop it when you punch.

[Judge Pen]

Master K
perhaps I am being misquoted or I explained myself wrongly. if so I apologize.

I am not comparing the mechanics or fundamentals of any one kick.
but the fact remains a kick is a kick.
if you are dropping yor hands to make up for loss of balance or to push the kick harder or to wind up, this is improper. and should be addressed at the moment it is done by the student.

a good teacher should see these habits and break them . it is the same as lowering your chamber when learning how to punch. everyone's styles chambers is different however it is still a bad habit to drop it when you punch.

ED, for any kick but the MT round, I would agree with you. But you can't tell an entire style that they are throwing a kick wrong. That's the way that they do it and it is effective. If you don't think so, go to Memphis and ask 7* to demonstrate his kicks.

[EarthDragon]

Judge Pen,
again I am not saying all MT guys are kicking wrong.

I simply said and will still say that if a person throws a kick reguardless of style but has to use the arms to make up for loss of balance or thinks it generates more power then this is a bad habit. please dont construe incorrectly that I said the kick is wrong. I never said that. just that you shouldnt drop the hands from your face to execute a kick.

LOl if I went to Memphis to watch sevenstar kick he would then have to take me to see Elivs

[David Jamieson]

I use the MT roundhouse with the hip thrust and all.

It's a pretty strong roundhouse kick, better than the others I've learned and frankly I personally prefer it mechanically speaking, power generation wise etc etc.

I don't use the snapping chambered roundhouse anymore because...(ed you're not gonna like this :P ) it has way less power than the thai kick.

However, sometimes I'll drop the arm to get more twist factor, and sometimes i'll keep it up. There is definitely a power generation difference.

Too much control can really hinder power, to much wild abandon can bring sloopiness to the equation.

For the last 4 years I've been trying to absorb whatever I can from as many places as possible. there are things I found quite alien at first, but with a litle work, there is a lotthat has replaced stuff in my practice that was comparably sub standard. Not saying it's totally bad, just that there is better stuff out there.

Hybridize your stuff. It will still be just as if not more effective and it will be your own kungfu as well.

[SevenStar]

So I suppose the Beastie Boys' song "Paul Revere" was over your head?


I love paul revere... I have it on my mp3 player.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen,
again I am not saying all MT guys are kicking wrong.

I simply said and will still say that if a person throws a kick reguardless of style but has to use the arms to make up for loss of balance or thinks it generates more power then this is a bad habit. please dont construe incorrectly that I said the kick is wrong. I never said that. just that you shouldnt drop the hands from your face to execute a kick.

LOl if I went to Memphis to watch sevenstar kick he would then have to take me to see Elivs

Ok, I don't understand. If, as a style, MT people are taught to drop one arm to throw a round-house (taught within the style), then are they teaching a bad-habit? Have all MT people been taught a bad-habit?

If you shouldn't drop an arm to throw the kick, but all MT people drop an arm whn throwing that kick, are they not doing what you say they shouldn't?

And I do recommend Graceland, at least once.

[MasterKiller]

I use the MT roundhouse with the hip thrust and all.

It's a pretty strong roundhouse kick, better than the others I've learned and frankly I personally prefer it mechanically speaking, power generation wise etc etc.

I don't use the snapping chambered roundhouse anymore because...(ed you're not gonna like this :P ) it has way less power than the thai kick.. I've never had the hip flexibilty to use the CMA roundhouse effectively, so I use the Thai version most of the time. Going high, though, I have to use crescent kicks. My hips are just too tight to get my leg up higher than the thigh on a roundhouse (either style). I use a front heel kick/push kick/teep about 90% of the time, anyway, to setup my hands.

[Judge Pen]

I've never had the hip flexibilty to use the CMA roundhouse effectively, so I use the Thai version most of the time. Going high, though, I have to use crescent kicks. My hips are just too tight to get my leg up higher than the thigh on a roundhouse (either style). I use a front heel kick/push kick/teep about 90% of the time, anyway, to setup my hands.

I use a front-kick/teep and a side kick most of the time sparring to set up my hands. I used to throw a thai style round-house but I stopped using it because my main sparring partner had my number on the kick. I couldn't get the angle on him with that kick and he would kick me first with a low front kick everytime everytime. I may try to work it in agaisnt someone that's slower than me.

[EarthDragon]

david J and others.
I agree that the latter is more powerful than a snap chambered kick. just kick a heavy bag and you will see. I kick very hard ,so hard that I have to use my shin or I hurt my ankle. I am 6'2 ,251 lbs and love to cripple.

However, when I was learning how to kick form my karate sensei (Victor vega's student), he would strees that you should NEVER drop your guard to compensate for what you will at first think is more power. When we learn to punch we think if you wind up you will generate power but as we now understand this is not true. But ask a untrained fighter which generates more power.

its like asking a untraied fighter where the power from a punch comes from, they might say the soulder or the waist but we also know this is untrue. so as your level of understanding kinetics or power of jing come from the more you understand compensation of any kind to make up for loss of balance is a bad habit.

Judge. I knew a Korean tae kwon do 10 degree BB that could kick a hole in a cinder block with his side kick. but when he kicked he would keep his hands in the up guard postion which is correct!
however when he first taught his students in his controlled environment at class time he would tell them to snap the arm down straight to the side of the body for better aligment.
such is the sport of kicking and real life situations. they differ emencely

[SevenStar]

sevenstar, and master killer. please explain what you think the difference is.
i.e
we have a low mantis kick aka (roundhouse). it is thrown exactly they way they do it in a thailand. america and vietnam. we turn the hip, kick the outside of the quatrcept, focus point is the tarcel bones of the foot.

1. you aren't stepping out at an angle - you aren't doing it the same way.
2. you hit with the tarsal bones of the foot - you aren't doing it the same way. This will become apparent after kicking a knee or elbow.
3. the outside of the quad isn't the only target. we also target the calf, the inner thigh and the front of the quad.

When do you turn the hip?



do you hear how obsurd this sounds?

It sounds absurd to you because you don't realize that the two kicks are not the same.



if you have to use your hand to balance your body this is not proper. and sloppy.

if you kick with the instep / tarsal area of the foot, this is both wrong and a bad habit, and asking for an injury.

[SevenStar]

david J and others.
I agree that the latter is more powerful than a snap chambered kick. just kick a heavy bag and you will see. I kick very hard ,so hard that I have to use my shin or I hurt my ankle. I am 6'2 ,251 lbs and love to cripple.



then why do you say kicking with the tarsal area is proper?

[SevenStar]

Judge Pen,
again I am not saying all MT guys are kicking wrong.

I simply said and will still say that if a person throws a kick reguardless of style but has to use the arms to make up for loss of balance or thinks it generates more power then this is a bad habit. please dont construe incorrectly that I said the kick is wrong. I never said that. just that you shouldnt drop the hands from your face to execute a kick.

LOl if I went to Memphis to watch sevenstar kick he would then have to take me to see Elivs


It's merely a trade off - more power, less balance, less balance, more power. as stated, dropping the hand really isn't a big issue. the body is angled out of the way of the most common counter attack aimed at the face, and the rear hand is covering the face in the absence of the lead hand. If you are THAT concerned about swinging the arm back, then keep the hand outward instead of downward. This has an alternate application of allowing you to get someone in a side plam if desired / necessary.

[Ou Ji]

I first roundhouse kick I learned was in Karate. There was no chambering, just swinging the rear leg around. Roundhouse kick is like a roundhouse punch. It swings wide and comes in from the side, preferably at the fringe of eyesight.

To generate power we were told to follow the kick with the whole body. We did not twist the upper body in the opposite direction. Everything went in the direction of the kick. If it missed you had to continue around because there was no way to stop once committed. It took awhile to get rid of the natural reaction to twist.

Since then I've learned different ways including chambering it like a front kick but twisting it out at the last minute. Definitely much weaker IMO but faster and more deceptive.

Rear leg roundhouse is a power move, slow with whole body behind it. Good move if you're big and you can blast through even if blocked. Because it's slow it needs a really good setup. More of a finishing move, rock him with some punches then kick his head off. I think a lot of times it's used incorrectly.

Seems to me like twisting the upper body in the opposite direction would help maintain balance but subtract from the generated power. I haven't done any MT training yet so I'll reserve judgement. I know they can kick awfully hard.

[Judge Pen]

the way of the most common counter attack aimed at the face

My teacher eats my lunch with a low teep everytime I try to throw this kick on him. In your experience is that a more effective counter to the MT roundhouse? Granted my skill level and speed are much below my teacher, but I stopped using this kick on him because of it. I don't have the same problem with a CMA type roundhouse, as the chamber guards my lower body as I exectue the kick.

[SevenStar]

yeah, definitely - any medium to long range, straight line technique is a good counter to it - it completely kills all the momentum you generated for the kick.

recently, one of my students told me he was watching some fight - I'll ask him which venue if he's there tonight - and he said a guy got KOed by getting hit with a cross because he threw a roundhouse without stepping out first.

[SevenStar]

I first roundhouse kick I learned was in Karate. There was no chambering, just swinging the rear leg around. Roundhouse kick is like a roundhouse punch. It swings wide and comes in from the side, preferably at the fringe of eyesight.

To generate power we were told to follow the kick with the whole body. We did not twist the upper body in the opposite direction. Everything went in the direction of the kick. If it missed you had to continue around because there was no way to stop once committed. It took awhile to get rid of the natural reaction to twist.

Since then I've learned different ways including chambering it like a front kick but twisting it out at the last minute. Definitely much weaker IMO but faster and more deceptive.

Rear leg roundhouse is a power move, slow with whole body behind it. Good move if you're big and you can blast through even if blocked. Because it's slow it needs a really good setup. More of a finishing move, rock him with some punches then kick his head off. I think a lot of times it's used incorrectly.

Seems to me like twisting the upper body in the opposite direction would help maintain balance but subtract from the generated power. I haven't done any MT training yet so I'll reserve judgement. I know they can kick awfully hard.

This sounds like a good kick.

[EarthDragon]

to elaborate and answer what someone asked.

when I kick "Muay Thai" style, focus is in the shin bone. ......targets include shin, thigh, ribs, head

when I snap kick focus is in the ball of the foot............ targets face and ribs

when I sweep kick focus is in the tarcel area..... targets include ankle shin, ribs, thigh

all these are in the same system, however when I do any of these kicks
MY HADS ARE PROTECTING MY FACE!
never do you drop your guard to make up for loss of balance , more momentum or more power.'
you may think and at first;feel like you have more power when you **** the arm to counter however all you have to do is miss and get hit and youwill realize like I have said all along this is a bad habit to drop your hands from your face.

[SevenStar]

I see this is pointless...:(

[Judge Pen]

to elaborate and answer what someone asked.

when I kick "Muay Thai" style, focus is in the shin bone. ......targets include shin, thigh, ribs, head


You aren't kicking Muay Thai style then. You are saying that the way an entire style teaches a paticular kick is incorrect. How long do we want to ride the merry-go-round?

[EarthDragon]

seven star
wow I didnt think conversation was pointless to discuss?
as it seems alot of poeple do this. I thought we were getting somewhere in the basics of kicking fundementals. seems people have not understood this.

judge P.
Please stop saying i think the world of MT is wrong. i know several MT that i asked in the last 3 days and they laughed when i said are you taught to drop the arm when you kick?

they answerd only when they feel like being hit! so NO! ........MT guys are not taught as you said to drop the arm to the side.
mind you my one friend fights in thailand ,indonesia and malaysia. so I think he is a great resource for information.

[SevenStar]

seven star
wow I didnt think conversation was pointless to discuss?
as it seems alot of poeple do this. I thought we were getting somewhere in the basics of kicking fundementals. seems people have not understood this.

conversation is always a good thing. But when you insist that an entire system is wrong, communication breaks down.


judge P.
Please stop saying i think the world of MT is wrong. i know several MT that i asked in the last 3 days and they laughed when i said are you taught to drop the arm when you kick?

they answerd only when they feel like being hit! so NO! ........MT guys are not taught as you said to drop the arm to the side.
mind you my one friend fights in thailand ,indonesia and malaysia. so I think he is a great resource for information.

Actually, yes they are. I've been asking around too. It's like I posted yesterday - a variation is to swing the hand outward instead of downward. These guys have fought in thailand, denmark and various other countries. Also, watch some thai fights and notice what the hand position looks like...

[EarthDragon]

please post the part where I said all MT is WRONG!!!!!!!!!! please dont insult my intelligence. I have been doing MA for way to many years.

Ok follow me on this one OK?
you do speak of a controlled environment correct? this is a MT ring. My boy in malaysia made a point to say MT is a sport and a "you kick, I kick" exchange is a given respect. So given this, in the MT world is it safe to say each fighter respects the other and sometimes when they are kicking will one not attack out of the respect? and almost see if the others kicks are effective and copmpare to that of themselves?

on a different note you are telling me tha all MT guys are purposly taught to drop thier gurad everytime they kick????????

[SevenStar]

"you kick, I kick" is normal. As I've said 34958435435 times, when the hand drops, the rear covers it. your face is NOT exposed. The hand dropping or moving IS taught, yes.

[SevenStar]

..........

I am saying that within the difference it is not a good habit to drop that hands or rely on using the arms for balance no matter how hard you throw a kick.

[SevenStar]

..........


again using the arm for counter balance is a BAD habit! better balance within the kicker is all that is needed. this is sloppy but I guess it depends on what level your are in your training.

[Ou Ji]

I realise that when describing the roundouse kick as I originally learned it (old habits die hard) I didn't mention that the hands were never dropped. I have a pet peeve about peeps dropping their hands when they kick, most notably pulling them down with a front/heel kick.

However I do like the idea of using the other hand to cover the face. Will have to look into that and watch a few MT fights. I have the hands up ingrained into me though from too many years.

Good discussion if it doesn't breakdown into hollering and name calling. Fighting is ok, just no name calling. And no mothers. :)

BTW, bad hand dropping is a good thing if you're playing poker.

[EarthDragon]

seven star........my brotha............Ok established. next point

would you then say both hands covering the face would double your chances of not being hit? place answer here______________

with that being said would you agree that a good habit WOULD be to keep both hands up? place answer here_______________________

with that being sad and you were teaching people to fight would you teach them to keep their hands up so as not to risk being hit in the face or drop the hand? place answer here_________________________-


no worries just wanted to make a point.

everyone is entitled to thier opinon but I teach fighting and used to fight full contact so I always stress protecting the vital points and getting hit or kicked in the face hurts alot. and when I would see my opponent either telegraphing thier moves or DROPPING thier hand when they kicked I would wait until they kicked and knock the living $ hit out of them. try protecting the face with one hand againt a kick.

so as a rule DONT DROP YOUR HAND WHEN YOU KICK!!!!!!!!
it's all a matter of timing right?

[SevenStar]

I have a pet peeve about peeps dropping their hands when they kick, most notably pulling them down with a front/heel kick.


I hate that as well.

[SevenStar]

would you then say both hands covering the face would double your chances of not being hit? place answer here______________

in this context, no. What is open when you drop the hand is the side of the face - only on one side.with both hands up, you have one hand protecting each side. plus, with the angled step, you are stepping out of the way of the incoming punch.



with that being said would you agree that a good habit WOULD be to keep both hands up? place answer here_______________________

inconsequential.


with that being sad and you were teaching people to fight would you teach them to keep their hands up so as not to risk being hit in the face or drop the hand? place answer here_________________________-

show them dropping the arm and and extended arm versions



when I would see my opponent either telegraphing thier moves or DROPPING thier hand when they kicked I would wait until they kicked and knock the living $ hit out of them. try protecting the face with one hand againt a kick.


that's what happens when you don't angle step...

[EarthDragon]

seven star.. did you not just respond to OuiJi post by saying this???????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou Ji
I have a pet peeve about peeps dropping their hands when they kick, most notably pulling them down with a front/heel kick.


sevan star
I hate that as well.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

so you hate this? but yet have said all along that you supposrt this. and for the record please dont say its OK to do it for a front kick but not for a round house...... or a side kick , or heel kick, or back kick , or cresent or what other kick you can think of.......


then you said to my posts Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthDragon
would you then say both hands covering the face would double your chances of not being hit? place answer here______________


in this context, no. What is open when you drop the hand is the side of the face - only on one side.with both hands up, you have one hand protecting each side. plus, with the angled step, you are stepping out of the way of the incoming punch.

so you disagree that 2 hands are not better than 1???????????????:confused:

you mentioned the stepping at an angle many times. As you know my system is
8 step, we always step extremly effectively. So lets say you step to that angle to kick and I step to counter what then?

It seems perhaps when you haved kicked and dropped your guard no one has clocked you at the same time. I would be persuaded to think that if this happened you would make it a good habit to keep your hands up.

I have been kicked in the side of the head before wuith a round house and it hurts! alot my teacher screamed keep your guard up!!!!!!!!!

have you ever seen a boxer drop his left guard when punching right? NO

am I alone on this? are there any other MA that would like to chime in?

[IronFist]

I get like twice as much power when I drop my hand. The other hand comes across to protect the face, although it really doesn't do that good of a job.

[Ou Ji]

When you execute round house kick, you are in the kicking range and not in the punching range.

True but I was taught to step in against a roundhouse kick which puts you in punching range. So while you may start the kick in kicking range you could easily be in punching range while your foot is still in the air.

Hands up for protection is backup cover if you miss.

I wonder if tests were ever done with this kick with a force meter on a bag.

[Mr Punch]

Round house kick is bad idea anyway. Uh-huh.


It's just too easy to be caught.Riiiight.


The risk is too high.Generally no, because the people who say this are generally people who don't practice full contact, full speed against good roundhouse kickers.


... so what's the value of round house kick? ...low round house kick is not effective (if your opponent turns his shin toward you) [/i][my edit for order]Value:

High; can get a KO, can cut the head, can set up the low coming next!

Middle; can break an arm, can break ribs, can wind opponent if into solar plexus or gut, can damage organs.

Low; can sweep post leg (esp against your beloved shin turn!), can buckle knee, causes cumulative damage on thigh/calf/shin, can set up the high.

[chaiwai]

I hate that as well.
That have been my favorite for many years.
And guess what- those master are teaching it like that too.
So it becomes "cool"

[SevenStar]

so you hate this? but yet have said all along that you supposrt this. and for the record please dont say its OK to do it for a front kick but not for a round house...... or a side kick , or heel kick, or back kick , or cresent or what other kick you can think of.......

-you don't step out when you throw a front kick
-dropping the hand isn't acting as a counter balance when you front kick
-there is no benefit at all from it when you front kick


so you disagree that 2 hands are not better than 1???????????????:confused:

your two hands are not on the same side of the face, so essentially you are still only defending with one on the would be exposed side.


you mentioned the stepping at an angle many times. As you know my system is
8 step, we always step extremly effectively. So lets say you step to that angle to kick and I step to counter what then?

raised read hand - your face is guarded. I've said that several times as well.



It seems perhaps when you haved kicked and dropped your guard no one has clocked you at the same time. I would be persuaded to think that if this happened you would make it a good habit to keep your hands up.

that is because my opposite hand protects me.


I have been kicked in the side of the head before wuith a round house and it hurts! alot my teacher screamed keep your guard up!!!!!!!!!

that has happened to me several times, but not while throwing a roundhouse, for the reasons I keep stating.


have you ever seen a boxer drop his left guard when punching right? NO



why would he? see above about why you wouldn't drop it for a front kick.

[Ou Ji]

As I said previously I don't think peeps use the roundhouse kick correctly. If you lead off with it, especially with a fresh opponent, it will be easily blocked or caught. I'm talking about using it with a worn down opponent or as the punctuation of a flurry of punches.

Set it up with punches then drill it into the ribs. Work the body hard and finish with roundhouse to head. Roundhouse kick is not a standalone technique. It usually fails when used that way.

Any MT guys here that like to catch roundhouse kicks to ribs?

[FatherDog]

Round house kick is bad idea anyway. It's just too easy to be caught. The risk is too high.

That's a matter of opinion, but I could see why you would fight that way.


low round house kick is not effective (if your opponent turns his shin toward you)

And a punch isn't effective if you turn your forearm into it, and a leg-throw isn't effective if you sprawl, so what are the good of punches and throws? Nothing's effective if your opponent counters it; that's where timing and feints come in. A low roundhouse is very effective if you set it up with punches so it connects, and if your opponent does turn his shin to block it, it's very effective at setting up cut kicks on the other leg.

[EarthDragon]

sevenstar,
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For I have been strickley taught by some extremly good martial artists that you dont drop your hand to kick no mater what.This is lazy a bad habit. and if you have to counter balanceor think it gives you more power you need to improve your kicking. droping the hand is generally a begginers mistake for it gives you a false sense of enhanced power.

[Judge Pen]

sevenstar,
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For I have been strickley taught by some extremly good martial artists that you dont drop your hand to kick no mater what.This is lazy a bad habit. and if you have to counter balanceor think it gives you more power you need to improve your kicking. droping the hand is generally a begginers mistake for it gives you a false sense of enhanced power.

For the style of you and your teachers, yes, that is 100% true.

[EarthDragon]

Judge Pen,
those styles would be hung gar, Go Ju Ryu, and prayingmantis
I cant see other styles differing...... a kick is a kick and body mechanics are body mechanics.

How many other styles would you say are taught to drop the guard as they kick?

In all my years I have not heard of this. And I know a couple of MT fighters in other parts of he world. When i asked them about this as far as MT goes they laughed and said unless you want to be hit.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen,
those styles would be hung gar, Go Ju Ryu, and prayingmantis
I cant see other styles differing...... a kick is a kick and body mechanics are body mechanics.

How many other styles would you say are taught to drop the guard as they kick?

In all my years I have not heard of this. And I know a couple of MT fighters in other parts of he world. When i asked them about this as far as MT goes they laughed and said unless you want to be hit.

We are going around in circles here man. For what it is worth, I was not taught to drop my hands either. My style thinks it is a bad habit also, but every MT person I've met drops an arm, torques hard, and uses the other had to defend the face. If you found some that do not, then more power to you.

But to answer your question, only the one style that I know, but I'm not to say that they are kicking incorrectly for their style. I will say it's wrong for my kicks, and I learned that the hard way.

[SevenStar]

As I said previously I don't think peeps use the roundhouse kick correctly. If you lead off with it, especially with a fresh opponent, it will be easily blocked or caught. I'm talking about using it with a worn down opponent or as the punctuation of a flurry of punches.

Set it up with punches then drill it into the ribs. Work the body hard and finish with roundhouse to head. Roundhouse kick is not a standalone technique. It usually fails when used that way.

Any MT guys here that like to catch roundhouse kicks to ribs?


yeah, definitely

[SevenStar]

sevenstar,
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For I have been strickley taught by some extremly good martial artists that you dont drop your hand to kick no mater what.This is lazy a bad habit. and if you have to counter balanceor think it gives you more power you need to improve your kicking. droping the hand is generally a begginers mistake for it gives you a false sense of enhanced power.

As long as I continue to break ribs and bruise limbs, yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[SevenStar]

Judge Pen,
a kick is a kick and body mechanics are body mechanics.



that's really not true. The hook punch I learned in CMA and JMA was different from the one I learned in thai boxing. Not by much, but it was different nonetheless. The roundhouse is different also. Same general concept, but somewhat different mechanics. the teep and front kick differ somewhat also, as do other techniques.

[hitman142002]

Here's an opinion from someone with a different perspective. I have "cross-trained" in not only Kung Fu but also in Tae Kwon Do and in several different Karate forms as well. From my experiences, Tae Kwon Do especially teaches specifically TO bring that hand down when throwing that rear leg roundhouse. It is the old adage of "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" thing- it is why Karateka use a "draw hand" when punching (forcefully pulling back one hand while punching with the other). It DOES add power to the kick, it DOES help facilitate the hips turning...and it DOES leave your chin wide open for a moment. This is one of the reasons we Shotokan guys tend to clean out a Tae Kwon Do guy at tournies. However, if that kick lands...it's BAD news. Heck, even if you manage to block the kick, it still hurts.
In general, by dropping that hand when kicking, you are gaining momentum and power but leaving a hole in your guard at least momentarily. It's a trade off. If you are realativly certain that the kick will land (like if the guy is worn down and his hands are held low to begin with) do it. If you are leading off your fight with this technique (and why would you to begin with) keep your guard up or you will BE that guy who is worn down....
Just my 2 cents...