American Mantis

[Americanmantis]

I am pleased to announce the development of a new martial arts system
...American Mantis


Sincerely,
Dr. George Lisjak
Americanmantis@AOL.com
www.Americanmantis.us

[Ou Ji]

Just what Northern Praying Mantis needs, another branch. :D

[Oso]

well, we can't let the wing/ving/yun chun/tsun peeps have more than we do, can we?:D

[bungbukuen]

Sounds cool.

Stupid question:What makes the system uniquely new? I checked out the website, it said it was Plum Blossom Mantis and Six Harmonies Mantis as passed on by Wang Yuanqian and Ma Hanqing lineages.

[Americanmantis]

Hi Bungbukuen,

The website will be undergoing some major reconstruction.

There will be a book available online and possibly DVD/video.
______________________________

American Mantis is based on 30+ years of martial arts training, 20 or more of which is Praying Mantis. It is also based on a Doctorate in Chiropractic, representing 7 years of University study of Human Anatomy/Physiology, Human Biomechanics and Biophysics.

The system focuses on spontaneity, economy of motion (maximum force with minimal energy expenditure), tactical biomechanical and positional advantage.

It is designed to complement traditional systems, serving as a practical core, allowing for better understanding of more traditional movements.

Freedom of thought is emphasized. Students are encouraged to openly express their ideas in an open forum setting, analyze what works and what doesn't, and pursue their goals. This format will allow for further development and relevance of Praying Mantis in modern times.

The strategies presented are designed to strengthen some perceived inherent weaknesses, and in actuality, more in keeping with the aggressive spirit of the Praying Mantis insect.
_________________________________

If the student works hard enough I may even reveal my No-Shadow Punctuation Technique.:)

Dr. George Lisjak

[-N-]

Sifu Lisjak,

Great vision and goals for your school. Best wishes to all.

You'll have to let your students take you to Burger King for lunch. We used to go to dim sum with our teacher on occasion after class. Don't let it become a tradition though ;)

N.

[EarthDragon]

sounds like jeetkundo. while Bruce did have some valid points and interesting perspectives when it came to effciency in combat. Many tradtionalists wernt to happy with his inception.

stuyding the basics from Yip then saying the system is ineffective might haqve been the root of the problem.

[Oso]

****, Ed, I've been saying that for...well, over a decade now.

[EarthDragon]

Oso, Im confused.........you have been saying that george's american mantis format sounds like Jeetkundo for over a year?
This is the first I have heard about it... am I that late?

[Oso]

not at all...i was referring to your comment on bruce lee only.

[EarthDragon]

Oso
ahhhhhhhhh gotcha. Sorry, thought you were talking about american mantis.

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys~ In terms of defensive techniques, there are similarities between Jeet Kune Do and traditional Praying Mantis.

An upper gate outside parry in JKD is similar to gua in PM, inside parries like fu, and both inside and outside lower gate parries are similar to lou variations.

In JKD, the small phasic bent knee stance is similar to xiaoshi, the predominant stance in PB, and TC Praying Mantis.

In American Mantis, it's not the "what" , but the "how" whick makes it unique. This is solidified with emphasis on practical drills and sparring.

No forms. This way you can keep doing your favorites. Again, it is designed to compliment traditional PM styles. If I didn't love them, I wouldn't have stuck it out for over 20 years.

Curious huh?;)

Take care,
George

[bo_hou_chuan]

Curious huh?;)


Not really, you publicizing this whole ordeal has made me want to make certain I do not upset my Sifu.

[EarthDragon]

My take on this is based on knowledge. while it is true many systems have been invented, reformed, ripped off, conglomorated and hybrided. This was done by years of thought, actual combat, and most importantly Mastery of thier first art.

I guess I am puzzled as to how one can learn bits and pieces of 4 different styles then in a attmept to out of spite create thier own system.

The aikido teacher and partner in my school left his Sensei when he left the NGA then made his own association and changed some movements then said he created his own Aikido style then called himself grand master of this new made up style. This made many of his long time students uneasy, unsure, and unwilling to follow him and his new dream of a politcal free system, but was it? it is now controlled by one man who calls himself Grand Master. He lost over 400 students doing this and now teaches only new students who have never known anything else and are ignorant to the fact that they will never be certified in world Association NGA.

That is like dropping our of harvard because your ****ed off at your professor that you didnt graduate and starting your own college...

[Americanmantis]

Bo~ It's intended for people with open minds.

E.D.~ I'm going home and cry to mamma.
__________________________


American Mantis- "I had to do something in my spar time learning the basics."

Dr. George Lisjak

[EarthDragon]

LOL I dont think tears are in order in this case but mom's always help ease the pain.

Seriously I would just question the amount of knowledge needed to create an entire new style.

[Americanmantis]

Hi Earthdragon~ I still haven't told her (mom) about getting expelled.:)

Questions are good.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than on God."~Colossians 2:8

Hey do you ever hear from Dean? Miss the old days on Parkside and Hertel.
_______________________________

"American Mantis; I had to do something in my spare time learning the basics."

Dr. George Lisjak

[Young Mantis]

Dr. Lisjak,

So let me see if I get this straight.


Bo~ It's intended for people with open minds.

E.D.~ I'm going home and cry to mamma.
__________________________
Dr. George Lisjak

People who are not curious about American Mantis or this Revolution in Awareness are closed minded individuals.

E.D. questions your credentials for starting your own branch of PM and that is your mature and educated rebuttal.


"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than on God."~Colossians 2:8
Dr. George Lisjak

My beliefs in "tradition and the basic principles of this world" are hollow and deceptive. And finally, you compare yourself to God.

Quite frankly, I don't care what you do. To each his own. I was quite content to let this thread be except I could not continue to read your attacks on tradition unanswered. I don't see how you expect anyone to call you Sifu. Your revolution and this thread has only strengthened my devotion to my traditions and heritage as well as elevated my awareness of how fortunate I am to have a Sifu who has instilled in me and my classmates the concepts of loyalty, devotion, integrity, tradition and honor. Thank you. And here I thought this thread was useless.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your pursuits as I think you will need it.
May your path and your goals be straight and pure of heart and not fueled by hate nor spite.

YM

[Ou Ji]

Man, some of you guys go way too deep into things.

Everyone, including lineage holders, creates their own version to a certain extent. Some are even expected to add to the style.

If he wants to teach his own interpretation of mantis then have at it. If people didn't teach their own way of fighting there would only be a handful of styles.

The only problem is that nowadays nobody really fights so there isn't the shakeout there was in the past. If a style wasn't any good it died out. In today's world a lousy style could still flourish and people deceived.

He'll eventually be judged by his peers. As long as he's honest about what he teaches, like most say they would accept (see Shaolin Do) it'll be fine.

"It's intended for people with open minds."
Marketing hype. It does not infer that uninterested people are close minded at all. And whether the intent and the reality are the same remains to be seen.


The problem I see is the potential to teach standard traditional mantis and pretend it's something he made up. Which brings up a question:

If he was an 8 Step Mantis sifu then why can't he just teach his interpretation of 8 Step as he learned it? This situation give me the feeling that if you aren't associated with a lineage you have to go renegade and make up your own.

[NeedsPractice]

If he has
a- found a way to speed up the learning curve
or
b- get more information across on how to actually do things effectively
thats good

often people study things for a long time and either
a- dont get it
or
b- the important small details arent told to them ( the details that make the stuff actually work)

Anybody teaching martial arts ( especially the chinese arts) should be concerned with the above because alot of stuff is getting lost, and the average student isnt capable of filling in the missing pieces.

I think JKD was kind of an attempt at that but..........the best intentions.............

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys~ This is what I'm talking about. But first, want to set the tone of this discussion as level headed debate, kinda like philosophical chess...

As I mentioned several times, I love traditional Praying Mantis. If I didn't I wouldn't have stuck it out for 20 years...I would have quit after 19.:) I wish people would just teach it. Refer to the discussions on the Secrecy and Discipleship in America thread.

There are no secrets. They are found in the basics. However, once you learn them, you don't know anything because you don't know the advanced forms. You want to learn the advanced forms, but everything you need is in the basics. Start your own system and you are a renogade who doesn't know anything.

In 20 years, almost every teacher I've come across believe their way is the correct way, and would not acknowledge previous training from someone else.

I still teach a traditional program. I am developing a program to teach American Mantis based on the chapters of my book. American Mantis will be taught separately. However, I believe it will help in the understanding of traditional applications from a different perspective.

Earlier in this thread I outlined the basis of knowledge on which American Mantis was built. I can't joke with Earthdragon because I'm educated? I've known him since the early 90's. I knew American Mantis would stir controversy, and "crying to mamma" meant not giving up at the first sign of resistance. Read his reply, he amused by it.

"It's intended for people with open minds", means open your mind. This discussion doesn't apply to everyone. There are sincere open minded traditional teachers out there. They are just hard to find. A student could spend decades looking for one. These guys have so much information they don't have time to hold back forms.

And, to the guys wondering why their traditional style isn't flourishing in America...try teaching the material; And, God forbid you supplement your teaching with such technologically advanced learning aides as video tape. Bruce Lee said, "To change with change, is a changeless state". It is possible to change the way material is taught, without changing the material taught. What good is knowledge if it can't be shared? After all, it's all about preservation right.

Lastly, with the Biblical quote, I in no way compare myself to God. It is about keeping higher principles of truth above traditions created by man. "All men fall short of the glory that is God."

That is what the "Revolution of Awareness" is all about.:)
__________________________________


"American Mantis; I had to do something in my spare time learning the basics."

Dr. George Lisjak

[-N-]

Live and let live.

N.

[truth seeker]

Youth mantis:

Let me set things straight for you since your level of hypocrisy knows no bound.
You attack Dr. Lisjak on his views and concepts and yet you know nothing of them. Maybe if you took the time to understand what is really going on and why you would see that everything you have interpreted is false. This is not a revolution against traditional beliefs but an evolution of martial arts understanding. He is only trying to make aware that there are people out there that are trying to rip you off. He has never attacked the traditional way of life and actually has complimented his belief in it.
You accuse Dr. Lisjak of comparing himself to God but if you understood the meaning of the quote you would realize that he is only humbling himself in God's presence. Although religious beliefs are not the issue here Dr. Lisjak is a strong believer in God and maybe if you have ever read this book called the bible you might make some sense of your own in it.
You think Dr. Lisjak is immature because he jokes with an old friend in an open forum. How dare you insult someone for try to make ease of the constant attacks on his person. I have known Dr. Lisjak for well over 10 years and all I have seem in this time are the constant attempts to take advantage of his kind and respectable demeanor.
You talk about values such as loyalty, integrity, and honor and yet you don't seem to understand the meaning of such ideals. Throughout my entire life of knowing SIFU Lisjak I have never met someone so honest and caring . He has always shown such values to everyone that he has encountered only to get thrown to the curb when he questions some of the traditional ways of some masters. Integrity is defined as doing what you know is right even in the face of opposition.
Sifu Lisjak is only trying to broaden his horizons in his search for the truth with kung fu and life. He has never stated that all traditional kung fu masters are evil and corrupt. Actually he only wants to stengthen the traditional views of the student and teacher by try to bring to light how a student and teacher show respect to one another. There has been a great deal of attention to how a student should show respect to the teacher but little acknowledgement on how the teacher should respect the student. Maybe someday when youth mantis starts to enter the realm of adult mantis this idea can be understood. Good luck in YOUR pursuits as I KNOW you will need it.



"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" ... Albert Einstein.

[Three Harmonies]

Seeker
Relax dude, and smoke a fatty or something! YM brought up some valid points, and like your friend Lisjak stated he was ready for questions, and opposition. You have learned much from this man, that passion shows through.......but you have yet to learn some acceptance (of others ideas that is).
I know Mr. Lisjak solely through email. Always been very kind and nice to me. He told me about this idea of his a few moons ago, and so far I have sat back and enjoyed the show.
I am caught in the middle (deciding that is) to be honest. I have experienced some of the same **** that Lisjak has, and it certainly has upset me to the point of angst and frustration. Most of us have spent X amount of years with someone subpar, or not the be all end all. Some of us have been used or abused. I would not go so far as to say that the teacher never respects the student though. Higher level forms are not the be all end all, and if a teacher does not want to teach them, then who cares? My teachers know what I want, technical knowledge in application. If they feel that a form is important, or can help me on my journey, then they teach it to me. The rest of the time is spent on fighting.
George, I think some of the folks here are concerned because you have mentioned more than once about video tape, and the reluctance by teachers to allow such things. I think we all need to clarify things a bit. There is a distinct difference between me taping my teacher doing an application from a form while I am there learning it from him, in essence a reference, and asking a teacher to tape a form and send it to me in the mail!
I do not care how long you or anyone else has trained, you cannot get the true essence of any art solely via video. Period.
As for the comment about those of us complaining about lack luster attendance, and teaching the whole art. You may want to think before you go brushing broad strokes with that paint! I know of many men on this board that teach their art un-biasdly, forms and all, who are suffering. I hold nothing back from my students. Those that have trained with me, or been to one of my seminars, know that if anything I am guilty of overloading with info! In class I move at a face pace. So trust me, their are plenty of us out here that teach everything yet still suffer from a low student number!

All in all I wish you all the best. I think your ideas are great, and they have the right intention behind them. On the other hand I also see what others have commented on regarding you seeming ****y and bitter about things. Who am I to judge? I hope it all works out.

On a slight side note....... you are calling this American Mantis, and have stated that their will be a heavy emphasis on God and Christianity etc. Not sure about your neck of the woods, but around here and other places (throughout America) people really get turned off by that stuff. Those who seem to be stuck in that mindest often only attract Christians of their own sect. Just some advice.

Cheers
Jake :)

[shirkers1]

[QUOTE=
On a slight side note....... you are calling this American Mantis, and have stated that their will be a heavy emphasis on God and Christianity etc. Not sure about your neck of the woods, but around here and other places (throughout America) people really get turned off by that stuff. Those who seem to be stuck in that mindest often only attract Christians of their own sect. Just some advice.

Cheers
Jake :)[/QUOTE]


"Now bow down before me brothers as the jesus christ pose striketh down those sinners with a flurry of powerful pi choi's"!!!!

Come on now, this is getting loony. :eek: kool aid any one?

[Three Harmonies]

Shirkers..................................you made my frickin day dude! :D :D :D

Where I am from it is called Ghetto juice! I like the cherry! :p

[Young Mantis]

Truth Seeker,

OK, first of all, you are correct, I know nothing about Dr. George Lisjak except from the recent posts on this forum. In fact, he and I had a dialogue on the "secrecy and discpleship" thread. It seemed clear to me because of his bad experiences with "traditional" sifu's, that it has left a bad taste in his mouth or should I say wallet. In every post, he has accused traditional masters as being financially greedy and witholding information. On each discussion when I offered how traditional teachers should behave, he retorted that it "sounds like the omnipotent 'master'". At no time did he acknowledge that there are traditional teachers who are not greedy nor selfish in their teachings. So his broad statements are what fueled my comments.

So then we come to this thread. I gave my interpretation of what I read. What does interpretation mean? I did not say it was accurate. In fact I asked if I got it straight. You have graciously pointed out that it is not. I very much appreciated Dr. Lisjak's reply to my post although as I said, what he does and how he chooses to teach PM does not really concern me. But my post is merely a reaction to what I have read. I did not say he had to agree or accept it.

Now you call me hypocritical for commenting on Dr. Lisjak without knowing anything about him yet you say I don't understand the meaning of loyalty, integrity, and honor without knowing anything about me either. So now who is the hypocrite? I have studied with my Sifu for 20 years without interruption. I became a disciple after 12 years of study. Although I officially graduated and have been authorized to teach on my own, I remain by his side at his school 5 days a week to assist in any means necessary.


Actually he only wants to stengthen the traditional views of the student and teacher by try to bring to light how a student and teacher show respect to one another. There has been a great deal of attention to how a student should show respect to the teacher but little acknowledgement on how the teacher should respect the student.

Whose "traditional views of student and teacher" are you trying to strengthen? From the posts, it sounds more like trying to impose Western ideas of what this relationship is into a traditional Chinese perspective of what it is not. If that is what Dr. Lisjak is trying to accomplish, then state that and let it stand on its own. I understand there is a reason for calling it "American Mantis". Maybe he would like to strip some of the Chinese traditions and that is fine if that is how he wants to run his school. I can not disagree since it is his school but it seems the word "traditional" is being tossed around quite loosely in these posts.

I was sincere in wishing him luck. Change is difficult and I can imagine he will have resistance from the "traditionalists" but he knew this when he started this thread. I am glad to see he has at least one loyal student to defend his name. If it had happened to my Sifu, I would have done the same.

YM

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys~

Want to begin by saying that I appreciate everyone's input in these discussions. It is not my intention to come across as arrogant or bitter, however I can see where it may appear that way when I am adamant about something.

Let's pull our "punctuation"...

This is not meant to be a religious debate, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs; And, I'm not trying to push mine...just be a good representative. As I mentioned to Jake in one of our emails a while ago, American Mantis is philosophically Christian based, just as other systems have their philosophical basis by virtue of their culture.

Whether or not we choose to acknowledge it, and like it or not, it is a fact that the United States and it's Constitution were founded on Christian values and principles. These same values are what allow us to have our freedoms, ie. religion, speech, etc. Like this forum.

Keep in mind that like respect, religious tolerance goes both ways.

Jake mentioned that many have experienced some of the same feces (scientific word for ****) which upset him to the point of anst and frustration. These are issues that need to be adressed openly.

As you know, I respect your views about video/DVD. I don't subscribe to the theory that you can't learn from them though. If that is the case, send me one of your systems best...and please include applications. You have nothing to worry about right, that is unless it is "secret".

No disrespect, I'm just making a point okay. While nothing can replace hands on training, video/DVD can definitely enhance learning. This is especially true in a distance learning situation.

This technology is used in all professional sports. It is even used in medical procedures like video-fluoroscopy, and has neurosurgical applications like brain surgery. If it can be used for these intricate techniques, I think it would be okay for kung fu.

As far as "true essence" is concerned, ask any teacher from the same lineage what the correct way is, and you will find that everyone is different and theirs is the best.

Okay, and lastly, with reference to "men on this board who teach unbiased, forms and all", lets all offer our admiration and support to these people. These are the guys who should have the students! What have I been saying all along?...if your master isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

With reference to "it's fine if the teacher doesn't want to teach them (higher forms), who cares"...As long as the teacher (after he hands over an outline of the system) tells the prospective student that after several years into training he may decide not to teach some of it, I guess it's okay.

Dr. George Lisjak

[EarthDragon]

George,
I am sure you know I did not take offence to what you said, and jokingly replied back in the same mannor. if you are serious about this American Mantis please PM me I have some things I would like to discuss.

[Hoop]

Where I am from it is called Ghetto juice! I like the cherry! :p


The proper term for that flavor is "red." :)

[Three Harmonies]

True. True. ;)

Jake :D

[Michael Dasargo]

Live and let live.

N.


Agreed.

However I do have a mild suggestion which may not be "important". Of course, what is important is the preservation and transmission what you present.

Anyway, I would suggest renaming your system using your last name...being that "American Mantis" system is yours. ie, Shyun Jia Ba Bu, or Haojia Tang Lang.

The reason for the suggestion is due to cultural sensitivity. What makes your system more "American" than others? I believe Matt Chung is American Born (please correct me if I'm wrong) amongst many others who may be using English articulation to transmit the art. Yang Jwing Ming uses science to transmit his teachings, so does his country of origin not qualify his style as "American"?

Why didn't Arnold Buenaviaje coin the term "Phillipine Mantis" or Tunks from "Australian Mantis" or Ilya Profatilov from "Russian Mantis" or Slawomir Milczarek from "Polish Mantis" etc.

Ultimately, I wish you luck. With ethics, you can achieve anything.

Best Regards,
M.Dasargo

[zmaj]

I can just say that I noticed a lot in americans that most dont tolarate other cultures too well. I see something new every week to prove that to me over and over again. So off course, same goes with asian cultures, in this case chinese martial arts.

Now our dr. Lisjak here says he was angry about mystery and secrecy in martial arts and they hide the really "good" stuff...true, but if a student seems like a person that would go out and use it on someone, would you really teach him that? A good instructor wants you to grow into a specific design of what a master should act like, and if you cant get there, then you do not deserve it, and no amount of money should give it to you. Besides, in the other post it was said they shouldn't charge you if they were being traditional...well, I dont think that because if that is what they do best then they should be able to make a living with the art, now they sell some basic self defence which is really good stuff and against an average street fighter should be enough if you study that and get good at it, now if your looking to train for UFC or something similar, then you should probably look elsewhere.

Now what confuses me even more is the fact that d. Lisjak was so angry with the secrecy and "not selling everything" and yet has this on the website :

" If the student works hard enough I may even reveal my No-Shadow Punctuation Technique. "

Now this is not an original idea anyway, there was already american karate, american tkd etc. and pretty much came about the same way. But this all comes about with westerners lack of patience and that really should be picked up with whatever martial art you study. I dont understand why peple feel they spent enough time practicing an art and want to move up, that is a call for an instructor to make.

And why do the "american arts" feel the need to kick out forms is another thing thats really confusing to me. Forms build balance, speed, corect techinque, beauty, reveals the cultural feel to it and much more. We dont live in a time where the quality of our matial art means life or death in you daily life, its more of a spiritual thing now.

My point is, all that is required is hard work and you'll get there when you'r ready...after all thats what kung fu is, isnt it?

[-N-]

Now what confuses me even more is the fact that d. Lisjak was so angry with the secrecy and "not selling everything" and yet has this on the website :

" If the student works hard enough I may even reveal my No-Shadow Punctuation Technique. "
Hey zmaj,

That was just a reference to a joke on this forum. That was "punctuation" not "punching".

If you see someone write about invisible punctuation or Infinite Monkey Boxing, it's just a joke about there really not being any secrets m'kay? :)

Secret invincible techniques that defeat the bad guy are just a plot element for the movies. Real kung fu is not about secrets. It's about paying attention and practicing your @ss off. Probably the only time there might be a secret is when the student is dumb or lazy. Then, no matter what the teacher tries to do, the lesson is a secret to the student because he is unable to learn it.

Sometimes we get tired of people getting upset and going onandon about secret blahblahblah. The only secret is that THERE IS NO SECRET.

To use an American phrase, "There's no magic bullet". Maybe Sifu Lisjak can put that on his website :)

N.

[EarthDragon]

zmaj, Nice post!

*side note

In defense of secrets. this is the 8 step logo "secrets and techniques". I think possibly some things can be veiwed as secrets.
It was some time before I was taught that every joint lock had a counter. these counters were not taught outright to every student so that the shrfu could always escape the students attempt at seizing.

Could the counter be considered a secret?

also the counters to shuai chiao. could these be considered secrets?

I know different level students have more advanced information/ techniques. some students have said how come you never taught me that? I would reply you will learn when your ready. that too could be veiwed as if "I am paying you the same tuition shouldnt have all the information in the system up front"? or your revealing to them as they go..

this too woul be considered hiding secrets would it not?

your opionions?

[BeiTangLang]

Secrets,......being purpusfully hidden from others.
Learning,.... being taught things that you didn't know before or would not have understood if you were not tough in sequence.

The best kept secrets from my perspective, are the ones of your basic techniques, stepping & concepts. The more you study them, the more you understand how significant and important they are.

A very fine line, but the only difference between a secret technique & the techniques others teach freely in their classrooms is a few thousand dollars per year....per student.

~BTL

[bo_hou_chuan]

But is the problem that secrets are expensive or that money isn't buying the secrets?

I hear complaints that lack of money being given is what prevents instruction and that no matter how much money is given, advanced (secret) material is still not taught.

I understand that moral fiber is a very important thing my sifu looks for in prospective high ranking student.

Grand Masters are judged when others look upon their students. Is your father not judged, to some extent, by how you behave?

I wonder how many Sifu's have taught students and end up later regretting it.

[EarthDragon]

My view is money should not be the sole reason here.

I have had a student for 8 years, always faithful, practicies constantly and has proved himself 10 times over.
Would I show him things that I would not show others even though they are paying the same tution?
absolutly!

could those things I showed him be considered by others to be secrets? absolutly!

So becuse 2 different students are both learning and paying should they have the same info? absolutly!

however not at the same time. perhaps many years later...
but it seems as though impatientce is the issue. or the American thought of I paid for it give it to me right now................ with a receipt!

[-N-]

I think possibly some things can be veiwed as secrets.
It was some time before I was taught that every joint lock had a counter. these counters were not taught outright to every student so that the shrfu could always escape the students attempt at seizing.

Could the counter be considered a secret?Hi ED,

Ok, you're playing devil's advocate here and I understand what you're saying, so don't mind any wiseass comments from me as I play along :)

This kind of situation I describe as "secret", because it isn't really a secret. It does depend on your point of view though.

Ok, you've all seen the Roadrunner cartoons, and you've seen the Wily Coyote fall off a cliff, right? And sometimes when he does that, he gets this "uh oh, I'm fux0red" look on his face. He pulls out a hugeass sign that says something like, "BYE BYE!!" as he floats for a split second before...

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

falling all the way down.

Well, your Sifu is NOT the Wily Coyote. He's not going to pull out a hugeass sign saying, "Here is the secret counter move!!" He just teaches you the first technique. Then he tells you to practice it. Then he shakes his head in disgust because you are so lame that you can't do it. Then he sees you struggling and practicing, and he hopes you can make it work. Finally he thinks he sees you improving, so he tells you, "Ok, show me." He lets you do it a few times on him, and you sort of start getting the hang of it. He lets you do it a few more times, and you start getting really good at it. Now he's all happy for you, maybe even proud of you, but he won't say so out loud. He just tells you to do it one more time, and then he whips out his "secret" counter move, and you then j00 ahre pwn3d. Then he walks away with a small smile, or maybe he's totally laughing.

But, HE'S NOT LAUGHING AT YOU. He's your Sifu and he doesn't give a shi7 about kicking some student's azz. He's figuring that you finally learned the first lesson, so now he'll reward you by showing you the next thing,

--->>"THE SECRET COUNTER MOVE!!"<<---

He shows you the way his teacher showed him... fast and hard and one time only, so you can experience directly how it's supposed to work. Then he let's you (hopefully)work on it, and he's seeing what kind of student you are.

Are you the student whose ego is so big, that you're thinking, "My teacher is an @55h0L3! He hurt my feelings! He's been holding out!"

Or, are you the student who thinks, "That was amazing! My teacher just showed me the next lesson! What a great Sifu!"

From my point of view, the teacher just gave you 2 lessons for the price of 1. He saw that you were a good enough student to drill the technique 1000 times and make it work. Now he's trying to see if you're a good enough student to understand how he countered you. If he sees that you're kind of getting it, every once in a while, he'll whip it out on you again to help you. Once you finally learn that lesson, and you try to counter his counter.... guess what? He'll whip out something else on you and walk away laughing again.

This is when you're supposed to go, "Dang! There's more than one counter!"

Come on, he's giving you all his super cool best stuff! What do you mean holding back secrets??


I know different level students have more advanced information/ techniques. some students have said how come you never taught me that? I would reply you will learn when your ready.Yep, exactly. If you have a good Sifu, he's probably already showing you. It's just that you are holding yourself back because you are not at a point where you even realize he's gving away all his super cool best stuff.

If you have a good teacher, he's not thinking about keeping secrets. He's thinking that he's getting old, and he has a ton of stuff to teach you, and he hopes that he has a student that's good enough to learn everything he wants you to learn before he dies. Of course he is a perfectionist too.

N.

[Ou Ji]

Seems to boil down to 'if you have a good sifu', which doesn't always seem to be the case.

Look at the case of CTS, based on the CTS thread by lkfmdc, where he made a decision based on initial contact that determined whether you were worth teaching.

I really don't like that attitude. I've seen it in others too and don't agree with it. The physically challenged guy want to learn just as badly as the physically gifted. Why should he have the same chance to reach his goal?

Personally I would like the chance to learn no matter how awkward and fumbling I am initially. We all started out with 2 left feet.

Each of us have our own experiences and if all your have been good then you will not understand the bad experiences of others.