The Original Wing Chun [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hendrik

10-08-2005, 03:04 PM

White Crane of Fujian fused with Emei 12 Zhuang enginee with Emei 12 Zhuang's Small letter section's characteristics.

why

because

1, From the FACT and evident side of Chinese MArtial art search:

these stuffs exist and well documented for a long long time and can be traced with clearity -- NO LEGENT Needed

2, From the DNA of Southern Chinese Martial art angle:

The art, applications, technics, and enginee fit into SLT in a very nature way. plug in White crane of Fujian application and Emei Enginee to run SLT. It just fits in naturally.--- NO explaination needed

3, From different WCK lineages View:

It also consistance with some of WCK lineages history that Some one Fuse the Crane and His own art to create and art called SLT.--- No making up story needed.

What is the benifit to go this path?

A, An Empowerment, one be able to use the mother art's huge library of experience to lead one to have indepth view and attain advance Kung Fu without has to redesign the wheel..

B, setting one Free, one doesnt have to copy Taiji or Shao Lin or other stuffs or believing in any legend. But, Can start to learn and do serious training with public domain document of these mother art without have to be confused by lots of different direction and stories.

C, Open Book, No one But ALL own these informations.

What is the catch?

You might get influence and rooting on honor everyone, peace, and harmony , similar to spring. Doesnt mean you become No Cant Do but become Yes, Choose to not Do. when it comes to egoistic arguement or fighting ;)

Think about how much one get influence when Winter is over and living in Spring.

Spring weather is contageous and make one changes to see all the beautifull flowers grow and smell the smell of soil and plants and the happy sunshine. Away from Depression, Hopelessness, Helplessnesss, and Anger or Resenment emotion which Winter cold and dim sun brought.

It just transform one.

How about your Kung Fu?
well, atleast improve by 2x that is forsure by just step on the two mother giants of Chinese's martial arts system shoulders.

Why not?
Being happier, better, empower, and Free?

Hendrik

10-08-2005, 03:31 PM

Too bad Hendrik isn't still around. :) He makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin. He convinced me of the merit of his theories. I think the "original" Wing Chun likely originated from and therefore bore a strong resemblance to ancestral Fukien White Crane. It then mixed with something else....Hendrik thinks Emei "snake"....to give it a softer power base. I look at the existing Shaolin styles and see very little resemblance to Wing Chun. I look at the existing southern White Crane and Hakka styles and see a much stronger resemblance. So Hendrik's theory makes good sense to me.

Keith

Thanks for the Good words.

You dont need me for the Fajing. You just need to go learn some White Crane and Emei. Be certain to Bai Si so you learn the correct stuffs. Not to forget to give it back to help others too after you know what you know later. The name of the Game is not to become extra ordinary but ordinary helping others to do extra-ordinary. and the first step is empower and set them free.

Spring empower all living being to grow. Spring Set all of them free to grow the way they need to grow and desire to grow. So, praise the spring.

canglong

10-09-2005, 12:50 PM

Too bad Hendrik isn't still around. He makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin.The people that advocate these types of story are in fact supporting the argument that wing Chun is in fact a Southern Shaolin Art because White Crane traces its roots back to the Shaolin Temple as well. Yes I agree WCK is a Southern Shaolin Temple Art based on all the things previously mentioned. http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxWCfukien.htm

ntc

10-09-2005, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the info, Hendrik.... very interesting. Definitely see a lot of Crane in WC... no doubt about it.

canglong

10-09-2005, 06:52 PM

.... very interesting. Definitely see a lot of Crane in WC... no doubt about it.
ntc,
Animal forms, postures and techniques, crane like the others tiger snake leaopard or dragon are very old and common pieces of Shaolin martial arts and as such they are very common in most southern arts and when you see a system using these names, postures and techniques it is just another piece of evidence that the particular system in question originated in or incorporated Shaolin into its system. This is one of the reason Shaolin is considered the mother of all other arts.

Hendrik

10-09-2005, 08:59 PM

1, Southern Shao Lin art

Shao Lin is a very general term where it can almost be anything. From martial monk to label of ham as it was in the news paper last year if my memory served.

However, if one is interested in Real Shao Lin, then it will be like the following cases where people found trace of the track and be able to endose the existance of the track....

This is my ex sigung, a real shao Lin martial monk. Late Chan Master Gaocan,
http://www.sekkohsam.tk/

Presently, Shao lin monk form Henan went to Singapore to track his trace down. Because there were Shao Lin document that indicate my sigung was indeed trained in Martial art.

"When Shi Deqian from Henan Shaolin Temple in China, came to Singapore for his book 'The Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts (volume I & II)", he wanted to write down Yi Zhi Mei. All the schools in Singapore worked hard together and agreed on one version of Yi Zhi Mei, which ended up in the book.

Below a translation of part of the description in the book:

"Yizhimei Quan of South Shaolin temple.

Chan Master Gaocan, originator of Southern Yizhimei (Yi Ki Muay) Quan, is responsible for spreading it. According to records in the Boxing Manuals in Songshan Shaolin temple, the source of Chinese Shaolin Kungfu, Yizhimei Quan came from Shaolin temple.

In Jiaqing time of Ming Dynasty, pirates often violated China. Southeast coast. Many times the government ordered the fighting monks of Shaolin temple to go and suppress the bandits. Some of these monks died and others were heavenly injured on their legs. The latter couldn't return and stayed in the area and started teaching ....

http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=1104931321&page=1

2, White Crane from Fujian fusing with Emei not only offer the historic solution and also offer Both the DNA of shape and engine solution for SLT naturally. As mention above, take both art, inject it into the SLT/SNT without having to change anything in SLT/SNT ( YM, YSK, Yik Kam version, but not applicable to other lineages) everything will work right naturally.

3, if one forget about the stories but get to the DNA and concern only on how to activate their SLT/SNT, We can track and have a clear view of Shao Lin and track and have a clear view of both Emei and White Crane of Fujian today via thier DNA's. it will not be that difficult to pin point where the SLT/SNT or WCK's core is from.

Thus, IMHO, if one wants to activate the SLT/SNT instead of argue about stories, the case is closed viewing from this perspective. the bottom line of my offer is about set one free and empower one via be able to tap into slt/snt.

However, if one has great feeling about thier story is correct which is different then the above and that story empower them. Why not for them to believe what they want. That way everyone is happy, set free, and empowered. IMHO.

Sometimes, Martial art can become a religion belive, so, as soon as the believers feel great, free , and empowered and do good for others. Why not? Who is perfect and know it all? certainly not me.

canglong

10-09-2005, 10:00 PM

it will not be that difficult to pin point where the SLT/SNT or WCK's core is from.
Nothing is difficult if you leave everything undone. 30 years of guessing and you haven't pin pointed the origins. If your tea cup were not so full those 30 years might not have been so fruitless and when you performed your SLT you would not look like A crane standing amidst a flock of chickens.

anerlich

10-09-2005, 10:48 PM

when you performed your SLT you would not look like A crane standing amidst a flock of chickens

That doesn't sound particularly offensive, though you obviously tried hard to make it so, without success.

While you lose big time with choice of simile there, good work picking up on "flock" as the collective noun for chickens.

Chickens come in flocks or peeps.

Cranes come in sedges or sieges.

Lions come in prides.

And, apparently, WC history fundamentalist fanatics who brook no dissent or alternative viewpoints come in VT museums.

anerlich

10-09-2005, 10:50 PM

Nothing is difficult if you leave everything undone

Try running for a bus with your pants unbuttoned sometime. Not that I've direct experience, but I imagine that would be difficult.

KPM

10-10-2005, 03:27 AM

The people that advocate these types of story are in fact supporting the argument that wing Chun is in fact a Southern Shaolin Art because White Crane traces its roots back to the Shaolin Temple as well. Yes I agree WCK is a Southern Shaolin Temple Art based on all the things previously mentioned. http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxWCfukien.htm

People that advocate origin myths as literally true should dig a little deeper. Its hard to know how accurate such stories really are. I'm sure many have a grain of truth, but it was very common to claim some link to Shaolin to make something seem more legitimate. Marketing was a factor then, just as it is now. But saying that an art had some contribution or influence from Shaolin in its past is not the same as saying it is an actual "Shaolin Temple Art." Most "Wing Chun is Shaolin" versions of the history that I have seen have Wing Chun being the culmination of everything Shaolin....the final product of the evolution of Shaolin martial arts. That isn't at all what the web link you posted suggests.

Keith

canglong

10-10-2005, 04:18 AM

That doesn't sound particularly offensive, though you obviously tried hard to make it so, without success.
andrew,
It's the english translation of a chinese proverb not overly offensive but in reply to hendrik he knows exactly what it means.

canglong

10-10-2005, 04:34 AM

He (hendrik)makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin. He convinced me of the merit of his theories.Some of what you don't know you call myth the other parts you trust hendrik to fill in. Keith since hendrik hasn't answered maybe you will how do you explain the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were Yik Kam's senior.
Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. --Rene Ritchie

anerlich

10-10-2005, 04:58 AM

It's the english translation of a chinese proverb not overly offensive but in reply to hendrik he knows exactly what it means.

So if it's a private message for him, PM him or email him in future rather than subjecting the rest of us to your trivial inanities. Or ignore him like most of us do. You and Hendrik on a thread is like listening to a conversation between an acid casualty and a moron.

Original Wing Chun? Probably not a patch on versions that have evolved to meet changing conditions.

canglong

10-10-2005, 05:27 AM

So if it's a private message for him, PM him or email him in future rather than subjecting the rest of us to your trivial inanities. Or ignore him like most of us do. You and Hendrik on a thread is like listening to a conversation between an acid casualty and a moron.
Andrew,
No it was not a private message but your advice on forum decorum will be taken into consideration in future post and if you care to discuss things unrealated to the topic you too can also just use the pm button instead of costing others precious moments of their valuable time as you suggest.

KPM

10-10-2005, 07:58 AM

Some of what you don't know you call myth the other parts you trust hendrik to fill in. Keith since hendrik hasn't answered maybe you will how do you explain the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were Yik Kam's senior.

So what if they were? Look, it comes down to this....the "Wing Chun is Shaolin" idea has Wing Chun being the culmination of Shaolin martial arts, the final product of its evolution. The "Wing Chun comes from White Crane/Emei" idea suggests sources and reasons for various Wing Chun biomechanics and techniques. I look at Shaolin martial arts and see very little resemblance to Wing Chun. I look at White Crane and Hakka martial arts and see lots of resemblance to Wing Chun. So Hendrik's theory makes sense to me. I am not "trusting" him to do anything. I can think for myself.

Keith

canglong

10-10-2005, 09:08 AM

So what if they were?Keith,
An honest answer is at least an answer, however; since Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah-Bo were senior to Yik Kam hendrik's theory can not be correct hence you have not seen him answer the question your answer suggest these facts may be trivial to you and your opinion but rest assured hendrik's theory will never get around the fact SNT/CK/BJ were being practiced before Yik Kam took up his martial studies under the Cho family.

Doug H

10-10-2005, 10:16 AM

I personally believe Wing Chun originates from the Weng Chun Dim in the Ching Yuhn Loih temple {one southern Shaolin temple}. Master Chi Sim Chan bequeathed his knowledge to Wong Wah Bo who in the red boat period bequeathed his knowledge to Fung Siu Ching via San Gam or painted face Gam. I believe that it was in the red boat period {well after the Ching Yuhn Loih temple was destroyed} that the side lineage that ended up with GGM Yip man was established through Leung Yee Tai - Leung Jan and Chan Wah Sun. The original complete system from the Weng Chun Dim passed through the Dung, Lo and Tang families, through a next generation {the five dragon period} to GGM Wai Yan. Here GGM Yip Man also partially learnt from the five dragons Tam Kong, Chu Chung Man, Lo Chiu Woon, Lo Hong Tai and Tang Yick.

DRleungjan

10-10-2005, 10:20 AM

First of all let me state that the art of Wing Chun is first and foremost a combative art and this should be the main focus or emphasis. As my 'sidejob' in the system, if I may, well I love the many histories and legends, and have been reading and researching on my own about these for quite sometime now.

The origins of Wing Chun, as is the case with many martial arts new or old, is shrouded within the midsts of more than 2,000 years of martial history. History and legend are interchangeable until one is able to find solid evidence. To discredit (originally oral) legends is to discredit history and vice versa. Take for example: the warrior who defeatds an opponent in battles. Back when written records were scant, bards would go out and 'sing' (Wing) praises of their heroic deeds. Over the the years these would become legends. Does this mean that these are false? Not really. Look at the legendary King Arthur, to illustrate. Now through the graces of (sound) archaeology we know that he really existed not as the King Arthur of legend but as Artorius Castus a member of Roman army in the mid 3rd century a.d.

My point being that even if the Siu Lam part of Wing Chun is shrouded in legends, there might just be a small grain of truth to the Siu Lam origins. Then we have the different oral histories from different lineages. If one can do some sound research maybe one can find out a bit more than what one is expecting. If I am not mistaken don't some families keep written notes or records of some of the origins of Wing Chun? Every one has a piece of the puzzle with them all it takes is putting it together piece by piece. But this seems almost impossible as our egos won't permit us to concede to someone else's truth. Now for the solid evidence we have are Wing Chun, Fukien White Crane and some of the other southern arts to compare with. One also has the histories of the Hung Mun (eventhough they are also based on legends) and of the other southern arts.

Let me give all of you an example. The other night we were practicing and during class our sifu broke regular sifu mode and went into super sifu mode for a moment. He was explaining to us how all forms permeated one another thus containg the whole system encoded within them. He came and performed what looked to me like a 'moving' SLT to illustrate his point. It was spectacular to watch, because it reminded me of White Crane movements!:eek:

So like Hendrik is pointing out (if I am not mistaken) some of the history is in the forms just look carefully. So why discredit or credit blindly the Omei or the Sanke origins? It is why the efforts that Rene Ritchie and Benny Meng have to be commnded for taking a step to the right direction in unifying the legends (oral or otherwise) into a cohesive material that can be used as reference for further research. No matter how we view each of our respective ideas and perceptions the truth is hard to hide. The system is only one regardless of ones practices! Like Hendrik likes to point out...it's all about balance and one just has to know where that balance lies. ;)

With that I end my post. :)

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 10:52 AM

The system is only one regardless of ones practices! Like Hendrik likes to point out...it's all about balance and one just has to know where that balance lies. ;)

With that I end my post. :)

I have no solution to all.

My only solution is about Emei and White Crane from Fujian fit in naturally to turn on the Enginee of SLT/SNT. if a key is need to have a try.

I have no other agenda.

My only agenda is if the solution I have present empower and free you and make a better experience for you, use it it is free. discard it if you dont need it.

As for who is having the Original Truth or Oldest or . right... That is beyond my concern for I do not live in the Past.

Is it my belive now a day that If the history or story or His-story doesnt free and empower one but become a burden. Why spend energy in it at all?

As it said, if one doesnt have a story, then, one doesnt have to live up to that story. why lock oneself with a story or history or his-story and spend all the energy defending the story, bottom line, it is just a story. what is more important? living a free and empowerment life or stuck and imprison with a story?
what good it does in term of empowerment and set one free and make lots of opposition?

That is the honest truth I found out. So, if the history, his-story, story set one free and empower one, use it. if it is not then discard it. and since everyone is different, it is ok to accept everyone will have a different story, his-story, or history. Why spend energy to allow or disallowing others? We cant live others life. and We cant know what their life without really living as them.

peace and harmony.

KPM

10-10-2005, 11:38 AM

Keith,
An honest answer is at least an answer, however; since Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah-Bo were senior to Yik Kam hendrik's theory can not be correct hence you have not seen him answer the question your answer suggest these facts may be trivial to you and your opinion but rest assured hendrik's theory will never get around the fact SNT/CK/BJ were being practiced before Yik Kam took up his martial studies under the Cho family.

I'll ask again....SO WHAT? I don't see where knowing who Yik Kam's seniors were makes a bit of difference. Hendrik could be from the Yuen Kay Shan lineage and have come up with the same origin theory and it would make no difference. Knowing which came first....the 3 form system of Wong Wah Bo or the 1 form system of Yik Kam makes no difference to the idea of whether Wing Chun is the culmination of the evolution of Shaolin or a derivative of White Crane. I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. I've stated what I believe and why. You are welcome to believe anything you like.

Keith

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 11:46 AM

IMHO,

Let spend time discussing what is the different technicality derive from the Original of Wing Chun one believes in from one's view.

Instead of the less meaningfull arguement of history.

That way everyone is empower and set free. Atleast, to night when one does the SLT/SNt one can make a different.

I start with my view.

1, practice for lower abdoment breathing softly and naturally without stop breathing before doing SLT/STN.

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 01:15 PM

Nothing is difficult if you leave everything undone. 30 years of guessing and you haven't pin pointed the origins. If your tea cup were not so full those 30 years might not have been so fruitless and when you performed your SLT you would not look like A crane standing amidst a flock of chickens.

Same with everyone, I sincerely believe you have lots to offer and fill with abundant of loving kindness.

Love, Peace, and Harmony.

canglong

10-10-2005, 02:19 PM

I don't see where knowing who Yik Kam's seniors were makes a bit of difference.Keith,
Then you might want to do some more research before forming the opinions that you have.

Edmund

10-10-2005, 05:54 PM

Keith,
Then you might want to do some more research before forming the opinions that you have.

Maybe if you could spell out your reasoning...
Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were in the opera. I don't see how you are connecting the opera with the Shaolin temple.

anerlich

10-10-2005, 05:59 PM

your advice on forum decorum will be taken into consideration in future post

I guess there's a first time for everything.

reneritchie

10-10-2005, 07:10 PM

*As the 90s music blares in the background*

Gotta love these KFO Retro Nights :)

Savi

10-10-2005, 08:10 PM

Maybe if you could spell out your reasoning...
Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were in the opera. I don't see how you are connecting the opera with the Shaolin temple.Leung Yi Tai and Wong Wa Bo did not claim any connection to White Crane whatsoever. Being they were Yik Kam's seniors, how does it make sense that Yik Kam claimed Wing Chun came from White Crane when his senior brothers did not??? That is Cang Long's argument.

The Red Boat Opera was a chapter of the Red Opera Company, organized by Cheung Ng.

Cheung Ng was the last disciple of Yaat Chan Daai Si from the Southern Shaolin Temple.

There is the connection.

Edmund

10-10-2005, 08:23 PM

Leung Yi Tai and Wong Wa Bo did not claim any connection to White Crane whatsoever. Being they were Yik Kam's seniors, how does it make sense that Yik Kam claimed Wing Chun came from White Crane when his senior brothers did not??? That is Cang Long's argument.

Where is any record of Leung Yi Tai and Wong Wa Bo claiming any connect to any art?

The Red Boat Opera was a chapter of the Red Opera Company, organized by Cheung Ng.

Cheung Ng was the last disciple of Yaat Chan Daai Si from the Southern Shaolin Temple.

There is the connection.

Where is there a record of Cheung Ng being a disciple of Yaat Chan?

Ultimatewingchun

10-10-2005, 09:28 PM

But instead of all this...based upon the actions/opinions/teachings of people who lived hundreds of years ago...

Why not form opinions based upon what YOU, in the here and now, actually SEE when looking at wing chun, at white crane, at snake, etc?

Does the white crane/snake movements look like wing chun?
Do they feel like it?
Do they move like it?
Do they fit into the wing chun principles?
Does wing chun fit into the wh. c. or snake principles?

Have you, Mr. Wing Chun enthiusiast, actually worked with the wh. c. or snake movements?

Have you tried them on for size?

I HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF THE ABOVE...(yet)...so I'm not making any final judgements about whether or not one or more of these arts have actually influenced wing chun in any significant way...(although I suspect - by what I SEE when looking at these other styles - that they have influenced wing chun)...

but I'm not willing to simply accept someone's answer on these questions simply because:

"they say so."

Find out for yourself.

Savi

10-10-2005, 09:37 PM

DRleungjan

10-10-2005, 09:46 PM

Hmmmm...the Hung Suen...

The Red Boats were a melting pot of sorts when it comes to the southern fist styles. These styles all influenced each other to an extent. Now the question would be how did they influnce each other and to what degree. We have White Crane, Southern Mantis, Hung Ga, etc having similar origin legends. What was the impact these arts had to what was to be called Wing Chun? The connections are all there if one really has the time and patience to untangle that crazy web of info. The funny part is that many of these arts claim to have been at one point or another among the Hung Suen.

If one goes just by mere legends alone one gets and idea of some type of connection between the arts. Ji Sim a Siu Lam Tiger practitioner and an adept with the staff. He is credited with having a hand in the evolution of both Wing Chun and Hung Ga. Lets take Ng Mui (she is often equated with Fong Chut Leung of the White Crane circles) for example: She was said in some sources to be a 5th generation Fukin White Crane practioner. She was credited with starting the evolutionary process into what was to become Wing Chun. Look at Jeung Ng: some of his legends state that when he fled the capital he hid in the south from the authorities posing as a beggar before forming the Hung Suen Hei Ban. How interesting that in the Fut Sau lineage the SLT is also known as the 'Beggar's Hand'. The beggars hand is the Tan Sau. Hmmm possibly a connection or an allusion to 'Tan Sau' Ng? Wasn't Jeung Ng's 'one Tan Sau peerless through the region' according to some written sources? Who knows, but the allusions and/or connections are there.

The whole Wing Chun world is filled with legends, documents, oral histories and whatnot, that are entwined in some way or another. One just has to be carefull in sifting out relevant parts of history contained within the legends.

This has been a nice discussion for the most part, that with some objectivity has the capacity to enlighten others.

Now to answer Ultimatewingchun's post. In my short stint with the version that I am currently studying I have observed that snake/crane principle is ever present in the art. The snake being the evasive/body torquing abilities and the crane being the soft and centered principle within the art. As far as specifics are concerned I'd have to practice a tad more in order for me to explain more eloquently. Just some humble thoughts.

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 10:20 PM

Then you might want to do some more research before forming the opinions that you have.

I would get the porsche's key, turn on the porsche engine, take a fun ride. That way I know I own the porsche.

The rest, who is the one invented wheels...... let everyone talk and discuss and research and present thier opinions as they love and happy.

Different people love different strokes. Some love porsche some love to discuss about porsche ...ect. As one think so shall one live. nothing right or wrong.

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 10:26 PM

Cheung Ng and Yat Chan Daai Si has already been discussed on this forum over and over on this forum in the past. If you haven't a clue about it, do the research yourself.

Practically every single Wing Chun lineage points to Shaolin as the one source. CSWCK, TWCK, YMVTK, HFYWCK... Hendrik is the only one stating that Wing Chun comes from two different sources.

The fact that Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai were senior to Yik Kam - that WWB and LYT lineage have SLT, CK, BJ as three distinct platforms PRIOR to Yik Kam's one long SLT - the fact that EVERY other Wing Chun lineage has SLT CK BJ - how in the heck can this hendrik character make such a statement that ALL WING CHUN comes from White Crane and Emei??? If that is true, then that also means that his one long SLT predates SLT-CK-BJ. That contradicts the fact that WWB and LYT came before Yik Kam because SLT CK BJ existed BEFORE Yik Kam's version of SLT. And if SLT-CK-BJ became one long SLT, then why is hendrik NOT acknowledging the WWB/LYT lineage? He cannot based on his position. Look at the timeframes in history.

There wouldn't be an issue if he says that HIS Wing Chun comes from those two sources, but he isn't saying that. The only things this guy is really saying is that Wing Chun is a Southern Chinese Martial Arts. That's about it.

Because that hendrik is nuts and why do you even bother to spend so many lines discussing his ideas?

I will take a fun ride in my porsche, rather then wasting my energy on his idea.
have you ever see people buying stuffs they dont like? See, energy
is similar to money, why waste it on something you dont like?

otherwise, you will spend all your money and buying all those stuffs you dont like and fill up you whole home. And then you got even bigger problem because then you have no place to run from the stuffs you dont like. because it pile up deep and high in your home.

It is similar to those ANTI -Qing, all day long ANTI-Qing for century even after Qing dynasty is vanished from the surface of the earth, still go ANTI-Qing. be it ANTI or LOVE Qing, they always stuck with Qing because there always a Qing whether it is LOVE QING or ANTI Qing. Since they Stuck with Qing Sooo much, Why not called it Love-Qing, that way at least it is feeling happier instead of always the resentment and anger at some people who had died for hundreds of years and have nothing todo with today. Boy I love William Hung! :D

Edmund

10-10-2005, 10:28 PM

Hendrik

10-10-2005, 10:39 PM

Savi,

I'm not interested in supporting Hendrik's theory. I haven't seen any evidence supporting it. I'm not familiar with Emei arts.

I asked where's the record of a link between Cheung Ng and Yat Chaan. Which lineage claims that link? Pan Nam?

You dont have to support hendrik's theory. BTW, hendrik doesnt have theory, he is recently only interested in giving out Porsche's key. and it doesnt matter if the Porches is from Germany or Emei. :D

canglong

10-10-2005, 10:48 PM

originally posted by KPM
I don't see where knowing who Yik Kam's seniors were makes a bit of difference. Keith,
The reason you don't hear hendrik say things like what I just quoted is presumably because he understands chinese culture and more importantly kung fu culture enough to know that as Savi pointed out one flaw in hendriks theory that Wing Chun's Tan Sau is from "Water Shape Hand of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian" and 1 long SNT is from emei, is that is impossible because Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai, Yik Kam's seniors were already practicing SNT/CK/BJ. That is the reason you will be hard pressed to find Wing Chun lineages that like hendrik trace their roots back to Fujian White Crane. SNT/CK/BJ are the artifacts in this particular case and all lineages that connect or tie back to Wong Wah-Bo or Lueng Yee Tai were and are doing SNT/CK/BJ and reference Shaolin as the origin of their art.

Take for example the recent Chinese magazine article as told by Chan Guo Ji the Great grandson of Chan Wah Shun where he states, "All of these stories are carefully documented."(in his family records)
Chan Gou Ji explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats. Chan Guo Ji even identifies the year the temple was burned as 1795.

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

Let me give you an analogy Bruce Lee is known to have studied Wing Chun. Bruce Lee then based on his experiences is credited with creating Jeet Kune Do. A student of Jeet Kune Do today might mistakenly believe that since Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do and there is no SNT/CK/BJ practiced in JKD well then any Wing Chun lineage practicing SNT/CK/BJ is actually doing something that was introduced to Wing Chun after Bruce Lee created JKD looking at only the JKD perpsective and not the whole picture. Which in essence is what hendrik is doing.
If one were to isolate hendrik's theory and only apply it to his family kung fu it might work but once he moves it outside the realm of his own family then the theory is no longer viable.

Edmund

10-10-2005, 11:24 PM

Another thing I'd be interested in is which lineages claim Cheung Ng taught Wing Chun to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai? Because I know there's some that claim someone else.

KPM

10-11-2005, 03:11 AM

Hey Tony:

that is impossible because Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai, Yik Kam's seniors were already practicing SNT/CK/BJ. That is the reason you will be hard pressed to find Wing Chun lineages that like hendrik trace their roots back to Fujian White Crane.

---Don't the majority of Wing Chun lineages repeat the legend of either Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun developing Wing Chun Kuen after seeing a fight between a snake and a crane? Don't most lineages repeat the legend that Ng Mui was a Crane master?

SNT/CK/BJ are the artifacts in this particular case and all lineages that connect or tie back to Wong Wah-Bo or Lueng Yee Tai were and are doing SNT/CK/BJ and reference Shaolin as the origin of their art.

---Pin Sun Wing Chun does not do SNT/CK/BJ, and it traces back to Wong Wah-Bo.

Chan Gou Ji explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats. Chan Guo Ji even identifies the year the temple was burned as 1795.

---And where does Cheung Ng fit into this history?

Let me give you an analogy Bruce Lee is known to have studied Wing Chun. Bruce Lee then based on his experiences is credited with creating Jeet Kune Do. A student of Jeet Kune Do today might mistakenly believe that since Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do and there is no SNT/CK/BJ practiced in JKD well then any Wing Chun lineage practicing SNT/CK/BJ is actually doing something that was introduced to Wing Chun after Bruce Lee created JKD looking at only the JKD perpsective and not the whole picture.

---That is a poor analogy. If the student knows that Bruce Lee himself created JKD, why would he assume anything specific about Wing Chun?

Which in essence is what hendrik is doing.
If one were to isolate hendrik's theory and only apply it to his family kung fu it might work but once he moves it outside the realm of his own family then the theory is no longer viable.

---I disagree. We have a limited idea of what Wing Chun on the Red Boats looked like, and no idea of what it looked like prior to the Red Boats. Who knows....it may have been the "one form" system prior to the Red Boats and Wong Wah-Bo broke it down into the "three form" system, and Yik Kam chose to keep the older version. Or Yik Kam may have decided to blend the "three form" system into one long form. Again....it makes no difference when considering the theories of Wing Chun's origin prior to the Red Boat era. What does make a difference is looking at Wing Chun's biomechanics and power base and then comparing it to other arts that may have formed part of its origins. I'll state it a third time....when I look at White Crane and the Hakka arts I see lots of similarities to Wing Chun. When I look at Shaolin arts I see very few. That is not to say that Shaolin did not link in somewhere in the past. But I don't see Wing Chun being the culmination and final evolution of the Shaolin martial arts.

Keith

canglong

10-11-2005, 05:50 AM

originally posted by KPM
---Don't the majority of Wing Chun lineages repeat the legend of either Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun developing Wing Chun Kuen after seeing a fight between a snake and a crane? Don't most lineages repeat the legend that Ng Mui was a Crane master?
No

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng_Mui
http://www.wingchun.com/history.html
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_legends.html
http://www.fongswingchun.com/history.html
http://www.chongskungfu.com/history.html
http://www.sillumgungfu.com/History.htm
http://www.jhu.edu/~kclub/wing_chun_history.htm
http://www.combatcentres.com/history.html

Originally posted by KPM
I'll state it a third time....when I look at White Crane and the Hakka arts I see lots of similarities to Wing Chun. When I look at Shaolin arts I see very few. That is not to say that Shaolin did not link in somewhere in the past. But I don't see Wing Chun being the culmination and final evolution of the Shaolin martial arts.
You are entitled to your opinion but if you were to state your opinion a forth time it would not change the fact that your opinion is just that the opinion of someone who practices martial art no more or less valid than anyone else.

canglong

10-11-2005, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by KPM
---Pin Sun Wing Chun does not do SNT/CK/BJ, and it traces back to Wong Wah-Bo."Dr. Leung Jan new that, due to his already advanced age, if he took any more students, he would need a simple yet effective way to teach them. He decided on San Sik (Separate Forms), but not simply an extract from his existing art. Rich in both fighting and teaching experience, he decided to pass on a refined, personal synthesis of his Wing Chun knowledge. First, he distilled some of the core motions from his existing sets and then organized his own fighting combinations. He also changed some of the actions to the terminology so that the students would have a descriptive relationship to their practice."

Leung Jan's disciples in Fatshan do, his Koo Lo village students he chose not to train that way. Once again your example is only a small part of a large picture.

reneritchie

10-11-2005, 10:40 AM

This thread makes the kind of sense that doesn't.

1. If Wong Wah-Bo liked to break for tea between SLT, CK, and BJ, and Yik Kam did not, that probably tells us more about personal preference than seniority.

2. Since Leung Yee-Tai didn't have any students independant from WWB (Leung Jan is often linked to both of them), it makes it impossible to tell if he liked the tea-break, or the non-tea-break approach.

3. Yuen Wo-Ping choreographed the Michelle Yoeh movie, so I'm throwing his name into the ring as SUPREME CREATOR (rolled-r) as well.

Hendrik

10-11-2005, 10:54 AM

One data fact on the Yik Kam's SLT set or the art invented by Miau Shun who fuse Crane and his own art is that, Cho family is a trace able martial art family since the Yik Kam or Red Boat era. This family kept the art within the same family or last name for more then hundred of years. Thus, the documentation and record keeping is a direct non interupt since the Red boat era.
The SLT set with its Kuen Kuit was kept within close Cho Family until Late Gm Cho Hung-Choy decided to release it out.

Does one want to get the set working or one wants to talk and argue religions.
To be or not to be, that is everyone's choice and freedom of thoughts.

I personally think get the set work first and one can believe in any religion they want. and, going the way to " argue" about religion and have no clue about how to turn on the enginee of the set might be great for some but not for me.

So what if I win all the debat about religion but I have no idea or Know what is God's unconditional love is about or I dont know God?

Hendrik

10-11-2005, 11:03 AM

"Dr. Leung Jan new that, due to his already advanced age, if he took any more students, he would need a simple yet effective way to teach them. He decided on San Sik (Separate Forms), but not simply an extract from his existing art. Rich in both fighting and teaching experience, he decided to pass on a refined, personal synthesis of his Wing Chun knowledge. First, he distilled some of the core motions from his existing sets and then organized his own fighting combinations. He also changed some of the actions to the terminology so that the students would have a descriptive relationship to their practice."

Leung Jan's disciples in Fatshan do, his Koo Lo village students he chose not to train that way. Once again your example is only a small part of a large picture.

When Jim meet me last year, he asked me if he need to learn my SLT. I told him I will try to help him so that he can turn his enginee on via some simple move, and when his engine is on, he can develop or invent different type of moves or even no moves at all to help others. The point is not about Wearing William Hung T-shirt to become a fan. But to empower and set others free.

IMHO, it is about can the enginee be turn on to empower and set others free, so they dont waste thier life keep following and who knows when they can even see the light from the otherside of the tunnel, it is not about stick to a set or ten sets or wearing the T-shirt with William Hung printed.

Again, if the his-story, story, or history free and empower one, discuss it. If it burden one and imprison one to make one get stuck, discard it. at this point, stories is not that important. IMHO

KPM

10-11-2005, 01:42 PM

Tony:

You are entitled to your opinion but if you were to state your opinion a forth time it would not change the fact that your opinion is just that the opinion of someone who practices martial art no more or less valid than anyone else.

---First of all its "fourth" not "forth." Second of all, I am entitled to my own opinion and you to yours. Neither my opinion nor your opinion is any more or less valid than anyone elses. Third, you seemed set on making me justify my opinion, hence I restated the reasons for my opinion, which you continued to ignore.

Leung Jan's disciples in Fatshan do, his Koo Lo village students he chose not to train that way. Once again your example is only a small part of a large picture.

---My example was one that proved your statement wrong....., not ALL lineages that connect or tie back to Wong Wah-Bo or Lueng Yee Tai were and are doing SNT/CK/BJ. It also provides an example to show that how someone in a particular lineage does their forms cannot always be used to support a theory of historical origins. The fact that Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan and yet Leung Jan chose to change the curriculum lends credence to the idea that Yik Kam may have done the same thing. But I guess you missed that point.

Keith

canglong

10-11-2005, 02:03 PM

---My example was one that proved your statement wrong....., not ALL lineages that connect or tie back to Wong Wah-Bo or Lueng Yee Tai were and are doing SNT/CK/BJ. It also provides an example to show that how someone in a particular lineage does their forms cannot always be used to support a theory of historical origins. The fact that Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan and yet Leung Jan chose to change the curriculum lends credence to the idea that Yik Kam may have done the same thing. But I guess you missed that point.
Keith,
You are talking about the branches this discussion was about the tree. You say change hendrik says Create.

Hendrik

10-11-2005, 02:06 PM

Since we are WCner,
If our discussion dont empower and free us or doesnt seem will help us to grow. Those type of discussion will make us suffer for no reason.

Everyone is entitle to thier own opinions, and I hope we all have a great discussion.

To prove or disprove of Yik Kam's art is trouble. It is a non productive one. We in WCK needs lot of ancient document from the ancestors to help us. Cho family for 4 generations keep the documents in thier safe box and we are glad that we still have them and can see those documents. Will it open for the public. yes. it is a matter of time. and Thanks to the ancestors of Cho family make it possible for us to see those stuffs after more then 120 years. I hope everyone benifit, empower and free to a certain degree when it was released among with the foot note or the Kuen Kuit of Emei 12 zhuang.

IMHO
Depth is the bottom line, not forms or words. The reason I create the 3 level models is just for that, to introduce different levels of art as I have read from the ancient documents.

Thus, Make good use of what is available. Only then we know what is the pro and cons and if evolution is needed then we know what to evol. If fine tune is needed we then know what to fine tune. IMHO

IMHO, we all WCners has the chance to bring up a holistic art even better then before in the history.

It is time to grow and expand, it is the broad and depth of the art which is the bottom line. I sincerely hope we put down the burden of history. We have done an excellent job to search for and propose different types of possible histories , IMHO credit goes to Complete WCK authors- Rene and Robert, Dr. Leong Ting, VTM .. etc. I think everyone's view is important. and due to condition, sometimes we hit a jackpot sometime we can spend a life time and still cant make it. lots of things are divine's will. and analogy to religion, we need more then one types of religions. But the effort spend is the important one IMHO.

So, now we need to move on. The porches has to be turn on.

IMHHHO

Now, peace and harmony.

KPM

10-11-2005, 02:11 PM

Keith,
You are talking about the branches this discussion was about the tree.

You used the example of Yik Kam (a branch) to try and disprove a specific origin theory (the tree), therefore bringing up another branch is perfectly legitimate and justified. Especially since it shows that the question of who was Yik Kam's seniors and how they did their forms makes no difference to the larger discussion. So you started out on the limb (the branches) before I did. :rolleyes:

Keith

canglong

10-11-2005, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by KPM
You used the example of Yik Kam (a branch) to try and disprove a specific origin theory (the tree), therefore bringing up another branch is perfectly legitimate and justified. Especially since it shows that the question of who was Yik Kam's seniors and how they did their forms makes no difference to the larger discussion. So you started out on the limb (the branches) before I did.

Keith,
You might want to save that statement for hendrik since he is the one going out on a limb with his Yik Kam theory.;)

Savi

10-11-2005, 04:54 PM

How can SLT, CK, BJ exist prior to Yik Kam, if Yik Kam's Wing Chun originates from White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang?

mufty

10-11-2005, 05:11 PM

History is so facinating.

This thread is very interesting, I have read all and think that maybe some people need to study and read more, and also listen to those that obviously have.

In my humble opinion after several years of study and research, both physically training, and in a scollarley manner, and also talking to people who may know more than me is this:-

White Crane came first, sorry guys.

However development of another way of doing the same thing is normal for us humans, we do it all the time.

Edmund

10-11-2005, 07:51 PM

How can SLT, CK, BJ exist prior to Yik Kam, if Yik Kam's Wing Chun originates from White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang?

Who cares?
Disproving one theory doesn't help prove another.

Where's the evidence that WC is a Shaolin art?

KPM

10-12-2005, 02:41 AM

Keith,
You might want to save that statement for hendrik since he is the one going out on a limb with his Yik Kam theory.;)

Now you're just snipping. What happened to the "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" attitude? And you haven't once tried to deny or explain the fact that Wing Chun bears a much stronger resemblance to White Crane and the Hakka systems than it does to any Shaolin art.

Keith

KPM

10-12-2005, 02:44 AM

How can SLT, CK, BJ exist prior to Yik Kam, if Yik Kam's Wing Chun originates from White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang?

Who ever said that Wing Chun deriving from White Crane and Emei couldn't have SLT/CK/BJ? What makes these forms unique to a Shaolin origin? The specific choreography of the forms do not necessarily indicate their source. Have you not been reading this thread?

Keith

canglong

10-12-2005, 08:51 AM

What happened to the "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" attitude? And you haven't once tried to deny or explain the fact that Wing Chun bears a much stronger resemblance to White Crane and the Hakka systems than it does to any Shaolin art.
Keith,
The caveat to that is that you are not expected to manipulate the facts to arrive at those opinions. Which clearly hendrik has done. You are doing an admirable job of fighting his fight by the way but at this point you must be wondering why he is posting but not addressing the subject matter.

Those links provided and easily there could be more on the earlier post were pointing towards Wing Chun's origins, you may not agree with them but discounting them all for the sake of one person's theory is not "the most likely" scenario.

DRleungjan

10-12-2005, 10:35 AM

Hehehe...

The funny thing is that we may NEVER come to a conclusion as to what came first...the chicken or the egg. I think this is the fun part of the subject. And so far as I see it we all possess different bits and pieces of the untimate truth. Just how to piece these together. Darnit, that is the real hard and nerveracking part. So to throw some more taels into the history subject...

As far of White Crane being older that Wing Chun, I believe that is most certainly true. To me there is no confusion here. Now from my neck of the woods we have this little tid-bit...

The art was originally known as Gu Yi Kuen (Ancient Chivalrous or Righteous Fist). Wing Chun was propagated through five distinct styles: the Ancient fist, which has now been lost, the Buddhist, the Royal Family, the Red Boat, and the Village.

Basically the gist of the above is quite clear and has a kind of a progression to it. Gu Yi Kuen was, to my knowledge, a convention made in the Qing Period novels to name the martial arts, from what I have read of course.

The Ancient Fist or Gu Kuen is self explanatory. These is a condensation of the styles that have, unfortunately, disapeared altogether. These might have been exactly the styles that existed in China and might have existed in Siu Lam Ji before it's burning. Hmmmm...the progression would then go to the Buddhist Family Fist (Fut Ga Kuen) of styles...ergo Bak Siu Lam to Nam Siu Lam, respectively. Remember that Siu Lam was a sort of 'Mecca' to the martial arts. It is not so much that 'all martial arts under Heaven came from Siu Lam' it is more that 'all martial arts under Heaven came to rest in Siu Lam'. Remember that according to some sources the Weng/Wing Chun was the inne-rgate system developed by the monks from a whole plethora of arts inside the Weng Chun Din. Nice little trip so far...now we have the Royal Family Fist...hey didn't the last of the Ming Royal elite flee to the south and hid amongst the monks of Nam Siu Lam Ji? Some food for thought there...So after the burning of the temple what happened...well the monks scattered throghuout China and some came to rest among the travellers in the Hung Suen or Red boats. On these boats there were many arts that were practiced and all had some influence upon one another. From the Red Boats we have some of the opera actors retiring and passing the art different receipients throughout the south of China. Some like the famous DR Leung Jan passed the art in the village of Gu Lo after his retirement. I'm sure that many others like 'Dai Fa Min' Kam did the same as well.

For me this is a very sensible outline of what 'might' have gone on. Now as the the technical aspects...I have also heard as well that the SLT was originally one long form until it was broken up into the 3 distinct sections we see today. Maybe that is why we see some variation of the form in different lineages because everyone got a 'different flavor of the pie' sort to speak.

Regards,
DRleungjan
:)

Hendrik

10-12-2005, 11:04 AM

IMHO,

DNA uniqueness is a key of key to learn about a system.

For SLT/SNT, the Core of the WCK, the first uniqueness we need to deal with is "YJKYM".

So, where is this "YJKYM" of SLT/SNT comes from? Emei 12 zhuang's Equal should stance.

The first process operational Kuit of the fundamental of Emei 12 zhuang talks about the Equal shoulder Stance. This is the same term used as in Miau Shun's SLT kuen kuit which passed down by Yik Kam to Cho family. We found out this using the same term while Chou Cien-Chuan the gate holder of the Emei 12 zhuang publised the secret Emei 12 Zhuang kuit. Before that since Emei 12 Zhuang kuit is highly secretive and kept. No one, inclusing the later generation Cho family knows where is this term comes from.

It is called Equal shoulder stance because the stance is 1 to 1.25 shoulder width.

One of the uniquness of this Equal shoulder stance is that it is a parallel stance with the toes pointing slightly inward and knees in a relax nature position.

Why is this toes point slightly inward? that is because a large amount of the body weight was intended to be distributed and "settle dynamically" on the external or yang side of the both feet. This arrangement provide a "suck-tion" which is naturally letting the inner part of the legs and abdoment area to be naturally relax which is syncronized with breathing and other parts of the body. meaning nothing got lock up or latch up. at it can have great flexiblility to manual the Hui Ying area instead of just tug up the hip. The whole tigh, hip, back are all flexible and nature for manuval. One can think about it as how the mount of the following telescope to the tripot. there is lots of degree of freedom needed and design for.

http://www.meade.com/manuals/TelescopeManuals/Reflectors/Meade114EQDSmanual.pdf#search='meade%20114'

One thing one needs to be carefull here is that the equal shoulder stance is not a "Fix Mount TRIPOT" due to the arangement of the weight distribute to the external or yang side of the feet. Thus, this stance is later called letter two Yang (external) side clamping stance.

Thus, in this stance one can freely observe, investigate, and train the syncronicity or holistic ness of Body/breathing/Zhen Qi/Mind. Since our body is a big piece of muscle, sinnews.... which with one part effect the other part.

Thus, the idea behind the design of the stance is the stance be able to provide a total degree of freedom and not locking up a certain part and expect the other part to do thier job freely (which turn into a locallized action) and holistically.

The design of the SLT due to using this Emei 12 zhuang type of Equal shoulder stance set a different path compare with its other mother art -- the White Crane from Fujian.

Since the Stance is a Natural Suck-tion and very adaptive, it different from the San Chi Stance of White Crane from Fujian which is more an excellent Mount shock absorb Tripot, SLT adapt the mother art's technics such as the center line theory, Five element hands, and other application, However, the generation of the Short power of SLT or Keng Geng becomes different to the "Inch Jing join force " or Jing of White Crane from Fujian....

This is the first key to turn on the SLT/SNT. try it, pay attention to the external side of the feet. That way, one will have a "side" balancing "weight", and see how the inner suck-tion naturally form due to relaxing the inner tigh naturally.

The concept of SLT is about Tapping the power of Nature. Instead of forcing to generate power.

Note that one of the reason people change the width of the YJKYM to wider stance because this "side balancing weight" or Yang/external feet settling/landing is missing or weak. Thus, they widen the stance to a wider one to MOUNT and compensate for the instability of their stance which is majorly having a forward/back ward force vector instead of the forward/backward , leftward/rightward, upward/downward dynamically balance or 6 force vectors balance stance.

Try this and one will find out one doesnt have to widen one's stance or mount rigid one's stance to get the stability one wants and even better one can have a dynamic stablity balance. That is the beauty of the WCK's SLT' YJKYM.

This is the first key of the stance. There are milestones such as achiving relax degree of freedom, settling, ..... until Zhen Qi.....

IE: When I work with Jim, he is working on achiving relax degree of freedom and settling level of the art. And,

There are indept pointing at what needs to work on to attain which is important in this phrase rather then sets or move or application....

The same application but perform by people who has different level of attainment will yield different result.
In Emei 12 zhuang, it is said that it has more then 6 level of attainment to the master the art. It is a broad and indepth art.

IE: when one heard about old grand master such as GM Yip Man is doing SLT/SNT for a long time. that is because they have attain the level of Settling. with this level of Kung Fu, it is very relax and settle naturally. so that they can do the set as long as they one and with enjoyment such as communting with God or prayer or meditation. For people like me who doesnt have the Kung Fu of Nature settling is causing me tense up and rigid. Thus, As the Emei 12 Zhuang instruction or the Miu Sun (Yik Kam) Kuen kuit said, It is a gradual training similar to Water washing the beach, slowly and slowly one attain a level higher and higher. it cant be rushed. This is called the Rou way and the way how the set was perform similar to snake or silk worm sliding and moving is called the snake body.

Thus, with the first key here and we exame some other Emei concept in brief, we know, our YJKYM is different from Hung gar's iron wire set or other NamKune of Shao Lin or Chi Sim Weng Chun. IMHO.

I have said in the previous that they are different art and now I present to you the first key the reason behind it. Not to say who is better. But it is a different ART because the ARt is cultivate very differently.
if others make claim that they are the mother of Wing Chun. Then, that will make that art to be related to Emei because the Snake, the Rou.... all are Emei characteristics. and we know, in China there are a few different mother styles such as Shao Lin, Emei, Wudang, Wah San... they are different type of art DNA.

For myself only, i find the discussion of history or stories or his-stories very interesting. But, there always other ways to head for a solution to the Original of WCK. and I like the DNA and Trying to find a key to turn on the engine path. Nothing better or worse, just different.

DRleungjan

10-12-2005, 11:36 AM

Wow :eek: very interesting...excellent post above, Hendrik.

Hendrik

10-12-2005, 01:59 PM

Wow :eek: very interesting...excellent post above, Hendrik.

hahaha, if it can free you I have lots of them.

SLT/SNT IMHO one way we can look at it as a spider stay at its balance and center not strech itself too thin or out of touch. Its job is doing house keeping to grow its web in a nature holistic way, so that every part of the web communicate and echoing each others in an excellent condition.

That lead to as the Kuen kuit said " comes retain, goes send it back,....USING THE SILENCE TO MANAGE THE MOVE.

silence means Dynamically center, balance, grounded/rooted ... in the realm of level 1 or physical, level 2 force /momentum, level 3 Energy/conscious/awareness. and each of these realm has its own rule of game.....

obviously, that will lead to the second Key --- Balance Arrow Bow platform, or non broken arrow platform....

canglong

10-12-2005, 02:00 PM

hendrik's evidence
Thus, with the first key here and we exame some other Emei concept in brief, we know, our YJKYM is different from Hung gar's iron wire set or other NamKune of Shao Lin or Chi Sim Weng Chun. IMHO.
Drleungjan,
I see you too are a stickler for real evidence too.

Hendrik

10-12-2005, 02:05 PM

Keith,
The caveat to that is that you are not expected to manipulate the facts to arrive at those opinions. Which clearly hendrik has done.

You are doing an admirable job of fighting his fight by the way but at this point you must be wondering why he is posting but not addressing the subject matter..

Mother Teresa said, " I will not matched for Anti War. I will be there if it is the Walk for Peace."

Thus, I would like to follow mother Teresa's teaching, " I will not fight or manipulate. I will be sharing and help if it is about free and empower us all to be a better person and martial artist.

DRleungjan

10-12-2005, 02:36 PM

canglong,

To discredit someone else's truth is to discredit one's own path toward it. I like to hear everyone's opinion on a certain subject and then form my own conclusions. As a matter of fact, although I don't agree with some stuff Hendrik has posted, at the same time I get where he comes from. If one is objective one can make sense of it. It so happens that the last long post that Hendrik made had much sense in it and for that I'm 'a stickler for truth' also!?

Some of the stuff Hendrik has posted, believe it or not, my sifu has come afterwards and told me to a similar effect during classes in the past. As a matter of fact, ALL of you guys have enriched my views since I have been posting on this forum. So why should I judge Hendrik or anyone else's views when mine are still at an incomplete stage? You know? it really aggravates me when folks try impose or in certain cases discredit other's research or conclusions. Someone who knows the truth never profess to know it.

I love these discussions because as much as they bring us apart at certain points they also have the potential to bring us together as a martial family (yes whether we do Gu Lo, Hung Fa Yi, Fut Sau, WSL, or Yip Man we are still doing Wing Chun...I hope). To bad we never look at the positive of things because it would make us better rounded martial artists in the end.

:mad:

anerlich

10-12-2005, 03:07 PM

I see you too are a stickler for real evidence too.

About as much as the authors of MKF when it came to "Popular Wing Chun", I guess.

canglong

10-12-2005, 05:07 PM

andrew,
In TWC they prefer the term "modified wing chun".
Someone who knows the truth never profess to know it. Drleungjan,
The previous post of hendrik you like so much was supposedly passing on the truth. hendrik has over 3000 post reportedly professing to enlighten the unknowing with the truth. People that disagree with him aren't necissarily reporting to know the truth so much as they are pointing out they know when someone is not telling them the truth for various reasons.

anerlich

10-12-2005, 05:19 PM

In TWC they prefer the term "modified wing chun".

Who's "they", sucka? I do TWC and never use that term.

Hendrik

10-12-2005, 05:25 PM

andrew,
In TWC they prefer the term "modified wing chun". Drleungjan,
The previous post of hendrik you like so much was supposedly passing on the truth. hendrik has over 3000 post reportedly professing to enlighten the unknowing with the truth. People that disagree with him aren't necissarily reporting to know the truth so much as they are pointing out they know when someone is not telling them the truth for various reasons.

Canglong,

I would like to tell you empowerment and set one free is much more important then any so called " truth" or defending any stories. IMHO

To be real sincere and honest, free yourself from others' view or stories, for that is just drain your energy if you get trap.

Same with everyone, you are important and valueable in certain way for this world. Free yourself, develop yourself, and that is true empowerment and freedom. Careless what who (including me) have said , is it true or not true or anything.

Keeping thinking or resisting something you dont like is going to attract more you dont like to show up. It is similar to I have told Jim, making a coin and then using the otherside to fight one side, that is a waste of energy. So why drain yourself?

Whatever I did, good or bad, I have my karma. As for you, why tangle with my karma and carry a heavy burden when you can be free doing what you love?

If you have fear on what I post, no needed to, it is just a view point. Be open to everything and attach to nothing. So, you are free now.

It is just my opinion, you can choose to take it or leave it since it is your freedom.

Now, peace, and Harmony.

Hendrik

10-12-2005, 05:35 PM

Mother Teresa doesnt do " ANTi war but peace" because ANTI war doesnt bring one peace.

Only doing Peace get one peace.

Thus, the old Anti-Qing mentallity is actually driving one into aggression and depression and dis-power one, because one resent and angry at Qing for a certain reason (may be good may be no reason...etc) , if one keeps remind oneself about Qing with "I am Anti-Qing". as soon as one not stop thinking Anti-Qing. Qing always will be there. There is no end of this reminding until somedays one decides to stop it. and let it go.

There is no spring if one keep remind oneself about how cold is Winter and Anti- Winter.

IT is an eternal Hell if one keep reminding oneself about ANTI-Qing. If there is Everlasting Hall in Shao Lin, then it must not use for Everlasting Anti-Qing. But Everlasting celebrate Peace.

This is a very important concept I found out about how to use our mind and call back our energy so that we dont get trap. Forgive and let go and look for peace seems to be the excellen way of thinking. IMHO.

Thinking what one dont want will attract what one dont want. So, why dont we just think about what we want and dont even bother with what we dont want.

Why I post this here? See, if one is going to call the set SNT, we need to know how to deal with the Nim Tau or Thoughts. Anti-Qing or Anti-Hendrik is not going to get Qing or Hendrik away but magnified its present.

Savi

10-12-2005, 05:37 PM

Who ever said that Wing Chun deriving from White Crane and Emei couldn't have SLT/CK/BJ? What makes these forms unique to a Shaolin origin? The specific choreography of the forms do not necessarily indicate their source. Have you not been reading this thread?

KeithI didn't say that any WC deriving from White Crane and Emei couldn't have SLT/CK/BJ. I didn't say that forms are unique to Shaolin. Forms may not indicate a source. Haven't you been reading my posts?

The POINT Keith, is that not all Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei BECAUSE Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai learned Wing Chun before Yik Kam. WWB and LYT had SLT CK BJ before Yik Kam. Hendrik's position is that Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei through Yik Kam. This issue holds no water for all of Wing Chun - only his own.

DRleungjan

10-12-2005, 07:07 PM

Drleungjan,
The previous post of hendrik you like so much was supposedly passing on the truth. hendrik has over 3000 post reportedly professing to enlighten the unknowing with the truth. People that disagree with him aren't necissarily reporting to know the truth so much as they are pointing out they know when someone is not telling them the truth for various reasons.

canglong,

I was a little ticked before...it was more of a rant and sometimes one has to vent. I will still stick to my beliefs, however. ;)

I hear what you are trying to say. But that is Hendrik's truth and someone has to be in his shoes and have HIS experiences in order to know. We don't know what he has seen or who he has spoken to or whatnot that he does not say to us. I for one do not practice Yik Kam Wing Chun but some of the concepts he talks about I can relate to because the version that I study has similar elements built in it. You know how many people come up to me and 90% of their stuff is uter B.S.? But take a look at the other 10% and there...amidst all of that rubble you find bits and pieces of a much larger treasure. Like I said in a post a while back to mufty that it was my wish that some day an inter lineage/martial family research would be carried out devoid of any politics. I guess that is my failing at times...I'm too much of an idealist. One thing that I agree with you is that at times one has to be a 'doubting Thomas' and take somethings with a grain of salt, but such is the world around us. That has been the problem with much of the martial arts; too many secrets. No wonder we have lost so many styles and so much knowledge.

Alas this is about Wing Chun and it's original face. I'm just here to learn and share...so let's see if we can find out something cool out of this discussion.

:)

canglong

10-12-2005, 08:34 PM

originally posted by Anerlich
Who's "they", sucka? I do TWC and never use that term.

This is an excerpt taken from
"The History and Philosophy of Wing Chun Kung Fu"
from the Thesis for Level Ten Grading
by Andrew Nerlich,
student of Sifu Rick Spain, WWCKFA
Eventually, Leung Jan became impressed with Chan's keen interest, accepting him as a disciple. However, he continued to teach only the modified version of Wing Chun to Chan, because he feared that Chan would dispute the grandmaster titleship of Wing Chun with his sons after his (Leung Jan's) death.
http://www.jhu.edu/~kclub/wing_chun_history.htm

canglong

10-12-2005, 08:39 PM

Alas this is about Wing Chun and it's original face. I'm just here to learn and share...so let's see if we can find out something cool out of this discussion.
DRleungjan,
Well said, we can agree there.

anerlich

10-12-2005, 09:56 PM

Hey Tony,

Do you stalk the women in your life like that? Assuming you have any?

LOL at those guys for pulling stuff out of something I wrote ten years ago and putting it on their website, LOL at you for internet stalking. I had no idea I was so popular. I must be real WC historian! Someone said so on the internet!

I feel like I've been goosed in a dark room by a retard.

BTW, the full text of the essay, which they quoted partially and you then quoted them out of context from their partial quote, has the following disclaimer:

Note: It is almost impossible to determine a definitive history of Wing Chun Kung Fu. The circumstances leading to the marriage of Yim Wing Chun and Leung Bok Cho have been described in several different ways by different members of the WWCKFA, including lectures by Sifu Rick Spain, the writings of Grandmaster William Cheung and writings purported to be those of Grandmaster Yip Man.
I discuss alternative versions of events to those set down here in Appendix A.

The enigmatic Ng Mui is used by a number of styles of Kung Fu besides Wing Chun to explain their origin, and she may be as much a legendary as a real figure. She figured extensively in the lore and performances of the Red Junk Opera Company, through which Wong Wa Bo, Leung Bok Cho and Jee Sin play a pivotal role in the art's development. It is perhaps prudent to remember that, as operatic artists, they were skilled in dramatic storytelling, and that many of the best stories have their basis in fact.

It may also be prudent to remember that the cultural basis of humanity's greatest endeavours is based on grand myths, fables and legends - often, based on real individuals and events - rather than on the smaller details of objective fact.

I write this assuming that the truth of history lies as much in each historian's interpretation as in the objective events

OK, except for an essay I wrote ten years ago when my Sifu belonged to the WWCKFA and we were toeing the party line, I don't refer to anyone else's WC as modified. I wrote about history as it had been told to me and researched, I didn't say that I went along with it.

I humbly apologise for any hurt or damage this may have caused to anyone.

*crickets*

Anyone?

Shall I bring up stuff out of *your* posting past? Wanna bet $5 I can't find something embarassing?

You're welcome to email or call my Sifu and discuss my writings and any hypocrisy or disloyalty you can detect. Like most guys, he gets a good laugh out of the rantings of the WC clueless and I reckon you'll probably make his day.

KPM

10-13-2005, 03:15 AM

I didn't say that any WC deriving from White Crane and Emei couldn't have SLT/CK/BJ. I didn't say that forms are unique to Shaolin. Forms may not indicate a source. Haven't you been reading my posts?

The POINT Keith, is that not all Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei BECAUSE Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai learned Wing Chun before Yik Kam. WWB and LYT had SLT CK BJ before Yik Kam. Hendrik's position is that Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei through Yik Kam. This issue holds no water for all of Wing Chun - only his own.

I'll ask again Savi....haven't you been following this thread? The POINT is that you cannot invalidate Hendrik's entire theory simply because Yik Kam did the "one form" version of Wing Chun and Wong Wah-Bo did the "3 form version." Individuals may change the choreography of their forms, so any given choreography within a lineage is not necessarily a good indication of what came before it. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun was given as a perfect example of this. He changed the choreography so that it is no longer the "3 form" version of Wong Wah-Bo. Isn't it possible that Yik Kam may have done the same thing? Or that Wong Wah-Bo changed his choreography from an the original "one form" version to the "3 form" version?

Keith

Hendrik

10-13-2005, 10:47 AM

SLT/SNT IMHO one way we can look at it as a spider stay at its balance and center not strech itself too thin or out of touch. Its job is doing house keeping to grow its web in a nature holistic way, so that every part of the web communicate and echoing each others in an excellent condition.

That lead to as the Kuen kuit said " comes retain, goes send it back,....USING THE SILENCE TO MANAGE THE MOVE.

silence means Dynamically center, balance, grounded/rooted ... in the realm of level 1 or physical, level 2 force /momentum, level 3 Energy/conscious/awareness. and each of these realm has its own rule of game.....

obviously, that will lead to the second Key --- Balance Arrow Bow platform, or non broken arrow platform....

White Crane of Fujian is famous of its centering or Choong or centerline theory which related to application and as what we can see today's WCK application. And what Emei 12 zhuang fuse in is the Balance.

This is a type of dynamic balance it is not a sitting still or mount down Balance. As it said in the Kuen Kuit or Emei 12 Zhuang that Non Moving is the source of Moves. Emei went even further when its Kuit said " External-Internal, Ying -Yang, Solid- Hollow, Train it with Rou" That is a balancing act of the 6 dimentions doing it with Rou.

With the centering and balancing concept as DNA from the White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang. The SLT practice is the can be analogy to balancing /centering/ aligntment of a bicycle's wheel, keep rotating or spining the wheel and keep adjust and fine tuning with the goal of get the wheel to be balance and flow naturally effective and effortless.

Thus, The second key of SLT , The NON Broken Arrow platform is an implimentation of t then Naturally default Centering and Balancing and balance/centering/equal distance communication or arrival similar to the spider which stay center .

With Non broken Arrow platform one is able to "balance and align and center" the bicycle wheel, or else An Broken Arrow platform is a bias platform which is not naturally balance or center.

While working on balancing/centering/align of the "Wheel" with SLT, one will face different situation and condition. Namely, the body, the breathing, the mind. and at each domain or realm, even the Mission or the core goal is about balancing, in every realm there are different "rule" of game. and states.

Say, before one can settle dynamically, one will face the physcial body. in this realm, similar to balancing the bicycle wheel, while balancing it, one will notice the Wheel might bais side or the weight distribution might off sideway or the break rubber some how stuck a little to the wheel when the wheel rotate very fast eventhought explicitly that doesnt seem related.....etc . all kind of things will surface and so one solve them as they surface, then one notice Breathing comes into play, then one notice the different breathing pattern influence different movements, such as if one is using the chest breathing then there is a "hold or stuck or stagnation" on the chest which when it happen the physcial movements goes imbalance or off center. and while one goes further, one notice one's thought generate "Weight" which influence one's physical action. .....

All the small details lots of them to be worked out. and then one also might find different type of breathing patern get one into different sensation and Zhen Qi surface.....

The above is in general working in the state of relaxing balancing or relax/balance different degree of freedom, then this will then lead to the state of dynamic stability as what when I am working with Jim. we are just a very beginning of the Journey.

So, what is dynamic stability. if we seperate it into different realm (in reality all thing happen in the same time) to pin point about dynamic stability, in the realm of mind or consciousnees. IE: When some one said about something not even pointing at us, but we get emotional. That is unstable state with first on is "imbalance" and thus going/streching/bais "out ward" to grasp the thought of others with the expense of the Balance. That is a broken arrow platform in the realm of mind. In the real of Physical, IE: other is throwing a punch off target, but one is going out there to block it with Tan sau. That is off balance and unsettle. For a settle and balance physical response is that one doesnt make a move until it needs to flow with it based on the centering/balance of the system. Not based on whatever out there.

As the Emei 12 zhuang said, Thus thus not moving is the real Yin and Yang. The Jewel not moving the application is a nature continous flow.

IMHO, the state of the Jewel not moving is the state of dynamic stability.

furthermore,
Beside the Balance, the Rou, there is another Key was brought in from the Emei. That is the concept of Yee Ren Zhee Ran, Or spontaneously riding/surfing the Nature flow. This concept or the Third Key, is about --- Tapping the Power from the Nature.

SLT is about Tapping the power of the Nature. Thus, the centering/balancing is about developing a "very efficient system in the sametime Tapping the power of the Nature to resonate and flow with it."

In order To be able to tap the power of the nature, to be able to enter or attain the state of dynamic stability after lots of time spend working on Centering/Balancing is very important and critical.

Thus, I have heard,
So, while working on centering/balancing, one first encounter the state of one needs to free the joins or muscle or breahting memory or habit....etc to eleminate the excessive ...etc or calling the power back to NOW to living in the present, as the SLT kuen kuit said " collecting the Yee union with Shen in the equal shoulder stance: and then keep balancing, the Natural surface, then, keep balancing, one will encounter the state of dynamic stability where one is getting into dynamic centering/balancing by default in mind/body/breathing...... and go deeper and deeper state. and, Awareness is the vehicle to bring us to travel this journey...

in the Kuen Kuit of Miu Shun past to Yik Kam and then To Cho family, echoing the Emei 12 Zhuang kuen kuit, the Term Yee ren Zhee ran appeared in several place as guidance interm of physcial move , Zhen Qi flow... and etc
Some of the stanza which was used in Miu Shun/Yik Kam's SLT is almost exactly similar to the Emei 12 Zhuang stanza.

Finally,

It is a long 30 years stuffs. Here I leave some key concept s and states one will encounter for you to conclude what I think the Original WCK is about. It is a multi-dimentional content/model different with usual single diamention way of describing a subject. It is a intertwin holistic view where philosophy/concept/process/states/and source origine being integrated similar to a hologram where one can look at it from various angles and see how they connected and support each others.

it is up to you to see if the key works and the concept describe the SLT or not.

If it work, then, we have turn on the enginee of the SLT. The case closed because we have a direction as how to work on the SLT to improve ourself. It is a spirit/mind/breathing/body holistic art not only can be used in martial art but applicable for our daily living.

It is my view that
Set one free and empower is the bottom line,
as Mother Teresa will not join the Anti-War martch,
any slight Anti or make other looks bad notion is getting one out of the dynamic stable state.

and we dont want to go there because that is not what our Art heading toward. IMHHHHHO

PS. As I share with you my view, I personally feel and wants to express my gratitude toward the ancestors and all people who has direct or indirect or bring resistance or encouragement for this SLT finding journey. Without them, I wont be able to know the above. Thus, there is no who is anti who but all people has help me in this journey.

canglong

10-13-2005, 02:08 PM

The POINT is that you cannot invalidate Hendrik's entire theory simply because Yik Kam did the "one form" version of Wing Chun and Wong Wah-Bo did the "3 form version." Individuals may change the choreography of their forms, so any given choreography within a lineage is not necessarily a good indication of what came before it.Keith,
You are advocating change but the reason the theory is invalid is because the theory does not stop at change hendrik's theory suggest that Yik Kam is the Creator of SNT and as proof he suggest YK's 1 long SLT was later changed to 3 seperate forms. So the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were doing SNT/CK/BJ prior to YK's SLT is paramount to this discussion.
Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun was given as a perfect example of this. He changed the choreography so that it is no longer the "3 form" version of Wong Wah-Bo. Isn't it possible that Yik Kam may have done the same thing?Good point Keith tell that to hendrik see how far you get.

Hendrik

10-13-2005, 02:17 PM

Keith,
.Good point Keith tell that to hendrik see how far you get.

I am always open to every different views.

Open to everything but attach to none. If It make sense I study about it. If it doesnt make sense I let it go. I respect people telling me thier stories, but I am more interested in a holistic view, instead of qouting some stuffs which might or might not related.

Now saying that, since I post my view. I am hoping some one shows me a complete model from basic cultivation such as how to do YJKYM, what is it's reason, where is it from, to the process of doing keng geng or shock power training and Zhen Qi trainning with Shao Li DNA and how is that relate to SLT the core set of WCK. until then, then there is something to discuss about rather then salemen talks where even the salemen have no idea about what they are selling but they do thier job well-- selling.

One form or ten forms, one long set or thirty short sets doesnt make me passionate. it is the essence what the set is passing on is important. IMHO. Show me can one do Keng geng or shock power and how that was cultivate from the set. until then, all is speculation and the set are useless. what's good to stand infront of the Porsche auto shop and have no way to own and drive a porshce? Claiming who knows the oldest also doesnt make me passionate. A key be able to turn on the porsche a like SLT/SNT will be a great fun stuffs.

It will be interested to see how different people view things and how advance is the art of WCK can travel into. however, again, if one stick in a surface mode then there is no way we can get into the depth. So, some one has a different theories then mine, Please share whatever and however Depth it can be reached. That is real interesting and I love those stuffs and certainly will listern without interupt.

Since different people has different taste. My taste is certainly will not be the same with others, however, I honor others taste. for I can only live my life not others.

All is Well, peace.

Hendrik

10-13-2005, 05:11 PM

last note before I sign off for now.

The reason I post the SLT uniqueness , the concepts, the Keys, the proccess, the states which one will meet is that I believe in setting myself and others free and empower all. In today's imbalance living, one needs something to reset oneself be it in the realm of mind/body/spirit. Stress is fear and imbalance. Direction of knowing what to do to achieve a certain balance or centering or stability is needed for a healty living today. We needs to work on something. and it turns out that SLT can be used as a vehicle.

I careless about if the history is true, if the model is the olderst, what I truely care is if the model I am working with can make a different bringing a better living for the wCner. if even it has a small contribution of leading others to a balance and stable living. That 30 years of spending is worthed even it makes nothing for me.

Live is about to give away to help others to be meaningfull.

Those in Red boat might have to give away thier life doing Uprising. However, today in this consider very peacefull world compare with the 1840 china era. Peace and balance is needed for everyone. Certainly, since WCK is a martial art, the power of combat is an inherit part, however, in a different era, IMHO, we need to look at things differently to help the people in that era, instead of following what in the past where it has past.

As in the present, there is no Anti or against from me to other WCK histories or group. Every one's idea is honor eventhought I am not shy to speak up openly in the public about what I believe in. My goal about the Yik Kam's Kuen Kuit is simple, if it set others free and empower one. then let is stay. if it doesnt and become a promotion of egoistical fight, burn it.

Now, peace, and Harmony.
Best regards.

Savi

10-13-2005, 07:30 PM

I'll ask again Savi....haven't you been following this thread? The POINT is that you cannot invalidate Hendrik's entire theory simply because Yik Kam did the "one form" version of Wing Chun and Wong Wah-Bo did the "3 form version." Individuals may change the choreography of their forms, so any given choreography within a lineage is not necessarily a good indication of what came before it. Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun was given as a perfect example of this. He changed the choreography so that it is no longer the "3 form" version of Wong Wah-Bo. Isn't it possible that Yik Kam may have done the same thing? Or that Wong Wah-Bo changed his choreography from an the original "one form" version to the "3 form" version?

KeithInvalidate Hendrik's theory? Sure I can. You keep missing the points:

1. Hendrik's "theory" is that White Crane and Emei are the original sources of all Wing Chun, yet those sources do not have SLT CK BJ learning and development platforms. (why do I have to keep pointing this out to you?)

2. Hendrik's theory does NOT acknowledge that SLT CK BJ CAME BEFORE Yik Kam's time. (Why do I have to keep pointing this out to you?)

3. Yik Kam learned Wing Chun AFTER WWB & LYT learned Wing Chun. (apparently I have to point this out too for you.)

3. Hendrik and yourself DO NOT acknowledge the FACT that Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai's Wing Chun are from a different source than White Crane and Emei; another (and not the only) possible source/route to the origin of Wing Chun that none of you two care to research.

4. HFYWCK, TWCK, IMVTK, MYVTK, CSWCK all point back and give credit to the Southern Shaolin Temple and/or the Weng Chun Din, its warriors and monks and scholars for the development of Wing Chun... now Hendrik is trying to tell people that he is right and everyone else's Wing Chun is wrong. Not only is that disrespectful on every level, but hendrik/cloudy/yellowpikachu/phenix and every name and no name this character picks is not an authority on Wing Chun whatsoever. Who is he to tell the Wing Chun world that the Wing Chun he doesn't even practice represents the true roots of the whole of Wing Chun? Give me a break!!!

Leung Jan's Pin Sun Wing Chun was given as a perfect example of this. He changed the choreography so that it is no longer the "3 form" version of Wong Wah-Bo.

That's not even the point. This holds absolutely no water because Leung Jan did not create Wing Chun. A teacher can do whatever he/she wants and decides in order to teach a student. Your example does not address the fact that Leung Jan learned it from someone else. You can't look passed the forms. "WHERE DID THE FORMS COME FROM?" is the question. That is the point; not how it was passed on, goomba.

Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system of Wing Chun, but he developed something for himself to use. He learned from other sources outside the system to develop JKD. Whose to say Yik Kam was not under similar circumstances? Everything Hendrik says about his Wing Chun may very well be true FOR HIS WING CHUN, but that is not true for my Wing Chun - not on any level.

I don't care if you are even considering these points, Keith. These points are for the benefit of others to consider.

Hendrik

10-13-2005, 08:09 PM

Since I have post my view before this post comes up.

For just fun of it lets answers the following questions.

Invalidate Hendrik's theory? Sure I can. -------S

Anyone can invalidate Hendrik's theory, Just ignore it is the easiest way. hahaha :D

You keep missing the points: ------S

The fact is different people has different perspectives. So you might be missing the points too. hehehe. :D

4. ...all point back and give credit to the Southern Shaolin Temple and/or the Weng Chun Din, its warriors and monks and scholars for the development of Wing Chun... ----S

If you want to belive that go a head. That is great if it empower you. why Not?

now Hendrik is trying to tell people that he is right and everyone else's Wing Chun is wrong. Not only is that disrespectful on every level, but hendrik/cloudy/yellowpikachu/phenix and every name and no name this character picks is not an authority on Wing Chun whatsoever. Who is he to tell the Wing Chun world that the Wing Chun he doesn't even practice represents the true roots of the whole of Wing Chun? Give me a break!!! -------S

It is up for the reader to believe what they want to believe, that is not hendrik's choice.
Hendrik can believe what he wants to believe and express his point of view similar to everyone right?

Relax, why get upset? See, just ignore his post since it is your eyes. instead of asking him to give you a break. That way you are empower. Dont be a victim, Choose not to read his post instead of get influence by his post. As I post you above. The more you Anti hendrik the more you stuck with it. the more you make non facture accusation the more you stuck, and if his theory doesnt hold water, it will sink. So why even bother to waste your energy at it? if dis-agree with his theory, simple, just post your theory which address all what hendrik has addressed with as much evidents from the basic to deep level of the art and let others learn from you. It will be great if you do that. So others have an alternative and dont have to care for hendrik's theory if they dont like that. in the mean time, until you post yours others have no alternative. See, time to post your theory, so others can see a comparison and I would love to learn from how you address where the YJKYM comes from, the keys , the process, the states... until developing Zhen Qi and Keng Geng and ....etc from Shao Lin. since different people has different perspective, you might have an excellent valid theroy and point which even better and more valid then hendrik's theory. if you really do that both you and hendrik and wCk will win because you are helping solving important issues which set other free and empower others.

I don't care if you are even considering these points, Keith. These points are for the benefit of others to consider.---S

Good and important points. I am sure it will benifit of others to consider. I am glad it is expressed so others can see different points of views and broadern thier horizon. That way they are free and empower to choose thier own view.

You see, you and hendrik can learn from each others. hendrik can learn about is he truely put set free and empower others in practice from you or does he walks his talk? and I just guess, I can be wrong, you probably can learn about how to face your own fear of what if hendrik's theory is right from him, for fear can take lots of different form. as It said in the movie - the star wars, I think " fear turn into anger, anger turn into resentment, resentment turn into suffering. BTW, those Anti-Qing stuffs are based on fear. And see they never win and defeat Qing. as for Qing started with only 13 armors and finally defeated the big Ming army of more then 5 to 10X of Qing's army . If Ming is so great how come an army of 1/5 or less can defeat them? We need to learn from that lesson of Anti never win but trap one lock up and imprison oneself with what one doesnt like. as for shao lin, Ming general's note shown that the Ming general put back martial art technology to Shao lin after he is not impress by the shao Lin demonstration. So.. lots of things we need to learn about what happen.

Further more, Let me share with you my finding of what might influence WCK's application from Ming dynasty art beside White Crane from fujian and Emei 12 zhuang.
That is Fan TZe ... Yes, the short range Fan tze kuen.... see, as the night sky, there are lots of possibilities... and stars to look at. Now, I put another cat out-- Fan Tze....

But I think there is nothing you need to be fear with at all. since everyone has thier freedom to believe as one likes it. I believe hendrik is believe, anything set free and empower you, go a head believe it. that is right for you, not explaination needed. One can simply love a perspective similar to loving a color. No reason needed.

As it was said, " as one think so shall one be." we all choose our own karma.

peace harmony.

Hendrik

10-13-2005, 09:43 PM

for clearify purposes,

emei 12 zhuang is a more then 700 year old art original from song dynasty. it pre dated today's taichi and bagua.

the using of the yin and yang medirians of the equal shoulder stance of emei 12 zhuang which was adopted into slt is descibe in emei GM chow chein chuan's book. detail needs to be watched out for the same external shape can be very different inside and indepth. subtle stuffs needs to be carefull. as the chinese said miss a millimeter lost a thousand miles.

KPM

10-14-2005, 03:29 AM

Hey Savi!

1. Hendrik's "theory" is that White Crane and Emei are the original sources of all Wing Chun, yet those sources do not have SLT CK BJ learning and development platforms. (why do I have to keep pointing this out to you?)

---Where does Shaolin have the "SLT CK BJ learning and development platforms"? Why do I have to keep pointing out the simple fact that there are far more similarities between Wing Chun and White Crane than between Wing Chun and Shaolin?

2. Hendrik's theory does NOT acknowledge that SLT CK BJ CAME BEFORE Yik Kam's time. (Why do I have to keep pointing this out to you?)

---And I have said....so what? What does that matter? That does not invalidate the idea that White Crane and Emei could have been predecessor arts. Even if Yik Kam was a total myth and never existed....still does not invalidate this idea.

3. Yik Kam learned Wing Chun AFTER WWB & LYT learned Wing Chun. (apparently I have to point this out too for you.)

---And I'll ask again....so what? My previous point still stands. Someone can alter what they have learned.....just as Leung Jan did.

3. Hendrik and yourself DO NOT acknowledge the FACT that Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai's Wing Chun are from a different source than White Crane and Emei; another (and not the only) possible source/route to the origin of Wing Chun that none of you two care to research.

---I acknowledge that this is a possibility....but a FACT? We are talking about Wing Chun legends here, and what is most plausible. Just what factual evidence can you show that WWB and LYT learned from a different source? All that you and Tony have done is attack Hendrik's theory. You've done nothing to support your own. Show my something that is more plausible and makes better sense and I will be glad to change my mind!

4. HFYWCK, TWCK, IMVTK, MYVTK, CSWCK all point back and give credit to the Southern Shaolin Temple and/or the Weng Chun Din, its warriors and monks and scholars for the development of Wing Chun...

---And so do the elders from a very large number of other chinese martial arts. It seems to have been a VERY common thing to claim descent from Shaolin. Those Shaolin monks during the end days before the destruction where very busy fellows! :)

now Hendrik is trying to tell people that he is right and everyone else's Wing Chun is wrong. Not only is that disrespectful on every level, but hendrik/cloudy/yellowpikachu/phenix and every name and no name this character picks is not an authority on Wing Chun whatsoever. Who is he to tell the Wing Chun world that the Wing Chun he doesn't even practice represents the true roots of the whole of Wing Chun? Give me a break!!!

---That certainly isn't the attitude he has displayed on this current thread. The same cannot be said for you and Tony.

That's not even the point. This holds absolutely no water because Leung Jan did not create Wing Chun. A teacher can do whatever he/she wants and decides in order to teach a student. Your example does not address the fact that Leung Jan learned it from someone else. You can't look passed the forms. "WHERE DID THE FORMS COME FROM?" is the question. That is the point; not how it was passed on, goomba.

---Goomba? Name calling now? Your logic makes no sense. You guys started out by saying that the way Yik Kam does his form was an indication that Hendrik's theory about origins from White Crane and Emei was invalid because it didn't match how WWB did his forms. So I pointed out that forms can change and used Leung Jan as an example. Now you seem to be saying something else. So just what is it that you are trying to say?

Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system of Wing Chun, but he developed something for himself to use. He learned from other sources outside the system to develop JKD. Whose to say Yik Kam was not under similar circumstances?

---Nobody! That is very possible! And the same proposal applies to Wong Wah-Bo or any of the preceding ancestors!

Everything Hendrik says about his Wing Chun may very well be true FOR HIS WING CHUN, but that is not true for my Wing Chun - not on any level.

---I see you are keeping an open mind. :rolleyes:

I don't care if you are even considering these points, Keith. These points are for the benefit of others to consider.

---Yes. I hope that others will consider them and try to make sense from them. I have no emotional attachment to any one theory of historical origins as you and Tony seem to have. So like I said.....show me a theory that is more plausible and makes more sense and I will be glad to give it every consideration!

Hey Tony!

You are advocating change but the reason the theory is invalid is because the theory does not stop at change hendrik's theory suggest that Yik Kam is the Creator of SNT and as proof he suggest YK's 1 long SLT was later changed to 3 seperate forms. So the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were doing SNT/CK/BJ prior to YK's SLT is paramount to this discussion.

---I'm sorry, I might have missed that point. I don't recall Hendrik ever claiming that Yik Kam created SNT. He may have stated that it was possible that the 1 long SNT was the earlier form that was later split into the 3 form version, and that the Yik Kam lineage chose to keep the original form....but that would not mean that Yik Kam actually CREATED the 1 form version. That would go along with my theory that WWB changed things to suit himself....just as Leung Jan did. But Hendrik has written lots of things. I don't know or understand his theory in its entirety. Regardless, the only position I was supporting was the idea that Wing Chun could have been a derivative of White Crane and Emei. That would have taken place much prior to the Red Boat era, so any argument about WWB and Yik Kam is essentially moot.

Good point Keith tell that to hendrik see how far you get.

---I think Hendrik has given us that answer already in this thread.

Keith

canglong

10-14-2005, 08:58 AM

originally posted by KPM
---I acknowledge that this is a possibility....but a FACT? We are talking about Wing Chun legends here, and what is most plausible. Just what factual evidence can you show that WWB and LYT learned from a different source? All that you and Tony have done is attack Hendrik's theory. You've done nothing to support your own. Show my something that is more plausible and makes better sense and I will be glad to change my mind!
Keith,
Posted earlier were several links to the origins of Wing Chun you simple ignore or dismiss them as myth because you never posted anything even acknowledging them, now that Chan Guo Ji states that his well kept family records support those links you simply want to ingnore him and his family records also.
Originally posted by KPM
He may have stated that it was possible that the 1 long SNT was the earlier form that was later split into the 3 form version, and that the Yik Kam lineage chose to keep the original form....but that would not mean that Yik Kam actually CREATED the 1 form version. "May have", why don't you two get together and conference on it and get back to us all when you think you have the story straight.

---I think Hendrik has given us that answer already in this thread.You think so because your opinions are inclined to agree with his, you have yet to quote him and in fact you nor he has yet to provide any of us with any evidence to substantiate his theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng_Mui
http://www.wingchun.com/history.html
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/...y_legends.html
http://www.fongswingchun.com/history.html
http://www.chongskungfu.com/history.html
http://www.sillumgungfu.com/History.htm
http://www.jhu.edu/~kclub/wing_chun_history.htm
http://www.combatcentres.com/history.html

& Link to Chan Guo Ji
http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

DRleungjan

10-14-2005, 09:34 AM

As far as the one long form is concerned. I have also heard that before the 3 forms that we see today, in Nam Siu Lam Ji the form was practiced as a single entity. What would they have called it then? Hmmm....that'd be interesting to know. I am not sure as to the who, why, and how of the splits as there are conflicting views on the subject.

However the way that I am being taught is thus: all of the empty hand forms (SLT/CK/BJ) permeate each other. They all reenforce each other. The forms all contain the keys to the system on their own, yet they all belong to one single entity. It is possible to practice all three forms as a long set. But that's just the gist of what is taught in my neck of the woods. So there might be something to that there. I would certainly like to know more.

Regards,
DRleungjan
:)

KPM

10-14-2005, 09:48 AM

Tony:

Posted earlier were several links to the origins of Wing Chun you simple ignore or dismiss them as myth because you never posted anything even acknowledging them,

---The majority repeat the common legend. Just because a legend is repeated frequently doesn't turn it into a fact. None of the links you posted mentions Cheung Ng either.

now that Chan Guo Ji states that his well kept family records support those links you simply want to ingnore him and his family records also.

---He doesn't mention Cheung Ng either.

"May have", why don't you two get together and conference on it and get back to us all when you think you have the story straight.

---Its not up to me to get any "story straight." I simply stated my opinion that I feel that Wing Chun is likely a derivative of White Crane and Emei, as Hendrik has suggested. That does not mean that I am an expert on his entire theory or endorse everything that it entails. I stated that I felt this way because I see many more similarities between White Crane and Wing Chun than between Shaolin and Wing Chun. Then you and Savi chose to go on the attack and make me justify what I believe and to try and discredit Hendrik's theory.

You think so because your opinions are inclined to agree with his, you have yet to quote him and in fact you nor he has yet to provide any of us with any evidence to substantiate his theory.

---That's not what I set out to do. Why should I quote him? He can speak for himself. He has provided evidence to substantiate his theory off and on in this forum for over a year. If you are that interested then do a search for yourself. Obviously he feels no emotional attachment to that theory or the need to rehash, reexplain or justify it any further. IMHO in the past he has provided far more evidence and explanation to support the "Wing Chun descended from White Crane and Emei" theory than anyone from the HFY camp has done to support the "Wing Chun is the culmination and final evolution of everything Shaolin" theory. Why have you turned this entire thread in an attempt to rehash old disputes? Let it go. You can believe what you what to believe and I can believe what I want to believe.

Keith

Hendrik

10-14-2005, 10:22 AM

Let it go. You can believe what you what to believe and I can believe what I want to believe.

Keith

Not the same Keith.
Excellent job to free and empower oneself -- let it go.

canglong

10-14-2005, 10:31 AM

originally posted by KPM---The majority repeat the common legend. Just because a legend is repeated frequently doesn't turn it into a fact. None of the links you posted mentions Cheung Ng either.
---He doesn't mention Cheung Ng either. Every other source of evidence that does supports his family records and his family records support all the other evidence linking Cheung Ng to Shaolin and Wing Chun. Moving them from the status of "legend" to factual evidence for those with any objectivity trying to actually understand all this and not just argue their point.
originally posted by KPM
---Its not up to me to get any "story straight." I simply stated my opinion that I feel that Wing Chun is likely a derivative of White Crane and Emei, as Hendrik has suggested. That does not mean that I am an expert on his entire theory or endorse everything that it entails. I stated that I felt this way because I see many more similarities between White Crane and Wing Chun than between Shaolin and Wing Chun. Then you and Savi chose to go on the attack and make me justify what I believe and to try and discredit Hendrik's theory.
Armed with just your opinions you are ready to argue against everyone else's opinions and the factual evidence that might argue against your opinion as well and then brazenly ask for everyone else's factual evidence, interesting.
We disagree that when you post you are just advocating your position but you feel the need to correct my spelling yet Savi and I are the ones "attacking", the forum is for discussion don't consider ours any different than yours and we won't consider you "attached" to your post either.
IMHO in the past he has provided far more evidence and explanation to support the "Wing Chun descended from White Crane and Emei" theory than anyone from the HFY camp has done to support the "Wing Chun is the culmination and final evolution of everything Shaolin" theory. Why have you turned this entire thread in an attempt to rehash old disputes? Let it go. You can believe what you "what" to believe and I can believe what I want to believe.
No one thought you opinions would change as Savi stated earlier the counter opinions are actually for open minded people who truly understand the key issue in all of this is that Wong Wah Boh and Leung Yee Tai were doing SNT/CK/BJ before Yik Kam was doing one long SLT ergo hendrik's theory is not valid and 3 pages of personal opinion will never ever be able to change that fact if you understood that you would let it go but obviously you can't.

Hendrik

10-14-2005, 10:40 AM

Hendrik

10-14-2005, 11:45 AM

Hey Tony!

You are advocating change but the reason the theory is invalid is because the theory does not stop at change hendrik's theory suggest that Yik Kam is the Creator of SNT and as proof he suggest YK's 1 long SLT was later changed to 3 seperate forms. So the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were doing SNT/CK/BJ prior to YK's SLT is paramount to this discussion.

---
I don't recall Hendrik ever claiming that Yik Kam created SNT.

Keith is correct.

Miu Shun created the Siu Lien Tau by fusing his own art and White Crane. Then after few generation, it was passed to Yik Kam. Yik Kam didnt create it. Yik Kam then passed the art to the Cho family in the Red Boat. Both Yik Kam and Cho Shun are redboat opera actors.

Canglong,

It would be appreciated, if you want to qoute me qoute me properly.

This is the second time you put my name under your own speculation or idea.

the first time, is your invention "Emei water palm". Nope , what I present is -- it is White Crane of Fujian's Water shape hands.

I really hope you are clear with what I am saying before jumping gun and think what you think is what I said.

Any one wants to know where the so called Yik Kam SLT from can read my article in www.wingchunkuen.com.

Hendrik

10-14-2005, 01:40 PM

We see White Crane of Fujian Clip before. Now we can move into Emei...

Just to share

Thanks to JIm,

This is about Emei 12 zhuang practitioner in discovery channel.

http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20031001-qigong.asx

Using of fingers to fajing in details is also a uniqueness of Emei 12 zhuang. IMHO, SLT's has inherit the Emei finger technology, too.

Cultivate Zhen Qi and doing set soft and snake slide like is a uniqueness of Emei 12 Zhuang. Check out when Dr. Foo lead others in doing Emei's art at middle of the clip. The snake slide and cocoon moves is in the clip...

KPM

10-14-2005, 02:03 PM

Every other source of evidence that does supports his family records and his family records support all the other evidence linking Cheung Ng to Shaolin and Wing Chun. Moving them from the status of "legend" to factual evidence

---Other than the nick name of "Tan Sau Ng"....what is the evidence that Cheung Ng actually practiced and taught Wing Chun? I don't ask this as a challenge, but as a true enquiry, because I've never seen it stated and would like to know if it exists.

Armed with just your opinions you are ready to argue against everyone else's opinions and the factual evidence that might argue against your opinion as well and then brazenly ask for everyone else's factual evidence, interesting.

---Gee Tony....are we reading the same thread? I stated my opinion and why I held it. You started asking me to justify it and provide factual evidence. When I ask you to do the same for your own opinion you call it "brazen" and take offense.
Its very interesting how perceptions of what has been going on can be so different.

No one thought you opinions would change as Savi stated earlier the counter opinions are actually for open minded people who truly understand the key issue in all of this is that Wong Wah Boh and Leung Yee Tai were doing SNT/CK/BJ before Yik Kam was doing one long SLT ergo hendrik's theory is not valid and 3 pages of personal opinion will never ever be able to change that fact if you understood that you would let it go but obviously you can't.

---Am I the only one that finds the preceding statement rather comical? :rolleyes: Does anyone else follow the logic that Tony and Savi are using? Yes, it is time to let it go. I plan to keep an open mind about things if other real facts emerge. Do you? :)

Keith

KPM

10-14-2005, 02:04 PM

Interesting video! Thanks for the link Hendrik.

Keith

Just to share

Thanks to JIm,

This is about Emei 12 zhuang practitioner in discovery channel.

http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20031001-qigong.asx

Using of fingers in details also a uniqueness of Emei 12 zhuang. IMHO, SLT's has inherit the Emei finger technology, too.

Cultivate Zhen Qi and doing set soft and snake slide like is a uniqueness of Emei 12 Zhuang. Check out when Dr. Foo lead others in doing Emei's art at middle of the clip. The snake slide and cocoon moves is in the clip...

Hendrik

10-14-2005, 02:17 PM

Interesting video! Thanks for the link Hendrik.

Keith

You are welcome.

I feel great that Emei 12 zhuang art get into the discovery channel.

and we can look for more clip about Emei 12 zhuang and even start a "treasure Hunt" on where our ancestors hide the finger technics in the long SLT set or the 3 sets.

IMHO, we have lots of them inherit. Even as I watched Koo Loo's clip of the Senior master, I have identified the five fingers trace the type of Emei 12 zhuang finger technics. So, it is every where.

IMHO, it is no point to become the Anti Mud ball or Mud ball believers. IMHO, look for the essence which the set or set or san sau which is presenting. Look beyond the shapes and forms.... If the key fit, more and more evidents will show up.

Ernie

10-14-2005, 04:33 PM

http://www.abc.net.au/health/cguides/avoidingquacks.htm

snake oil comes in all shapes and forms ;)

lawrenceofidaho

10-14-2005, 07:18 PM

http://www.abc.net.au/health/cguides/avoidingquacks.htm

snake oil comes in all shapes and forms ;)
Nice....... :)

My favorite part is "Who buys it?", and how the four main techniques of marketing "snake oil" are revealed. There is so much cross-over to the way that the worst wing chun schools market, that it's just plain sad.......

1) Testimonials: There are always droves of practicioners that have never fought (or even sparred hard) that constantly seem eager to tell you about what a great "fighting art" wing chun is. They'll also want to tell you about how good it is for your health, -while few of them are in nearly as good of shape as the guys & gals training up the street at the MMA gym.

2) The language sounds scientific but isn't really: Re-visit Terence Neihoff's posts on this forum to read about his past crusades against this kind of nonsense.

3) They accuse conventional medical authorities of trying to suppress them: Or in this case, accusing the "sporting martial arts" of creating competition rules that never allow them to use their "deadly techniques" in MMA or full-contact fights, and thus never being able to claim their rightful place at the top of the martial arts world.

4) It cures everything: Hmmmmm........ I think maybe we all know a few people on this forum that seem to believe that.

:p

-Lawrence

anerlich

10-14-2005, 09:35 PM

Good article Ernie, interesting take Lawrence.

www.quackwatch.com is something I find myself referring to regularly.

I recently read "SHAM: How the self-help movement made America helpless" by Steve Salerno. Interesting stuff for the skeptic in us all (or, in some of us on this forum, at least). A chapter in that book discusses the rise of questionable "medicine".

10-15-2005, 06:25 AM

SHAM is on it's way. Looks interesting, and thanks for the tip. Like I need another book in queue, LOL.

For those who may be unfamiliar, another source you may appreciate is Skeptical Inquirer (http://www.csicop.org/si/). Articles can also be viewed at Find Articles (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843).

I find it useful to occasionally remind myself of skecptism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=skepticism)'s true meaning. Its central characteristic is uncertainty. Certainty (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=certainty), absoluteness (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=absoluteness), dogmatism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dogmatism), or one who already has their mind made up either for or against something, is the antithesis of a true skeptic. In other words, some of the world's most vociferous skeptics, aren't.

Knowing nothing for sure, I probably qualify as one of the best skeptics in the neighborhood. Note I said probably. :D

Regards,
- kj[

lawrenceofidaho

10-15-2005, 06:32 AM

Anerlich & KJ,

good stuff.......... Thank you for sharing. :)

-Lawrence

Savi

10-15-2005, 10:12 AM

Miu Shun created the Siu Lien Tau by fusing his own art and White Crane. Then after few generation, it was passed to Yik Kam. Yik Kam didnt create it. Yik Kam then passed the art to the Cho family in the Red Boat. Both Yik Kam and Cho Shun are redboat opera actors.How is this possible when WWB and LYT (also actors of the Hung Suen) already had SLT CK BJ??? Answer that question Hendrik.

The whole of Wing Chun Kuen could not have come from White Crane and Emei.

Even based on your quote, that means WWB and LYT must have learned their Wing Chun from a different source prior to Yik Kam receiving his SLT training.

Stating that your Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei; there's no issue.

Stating that everyone's Wing Chun comes from your lineage; there's a big issue.

Wayfaring

10-15-2005, 12:38 PM

I heard a story the other day which I think it is great. Let me share with you.

It was said that Jesus met a blind guy, and the blind guy asked Jesus to heal him. So, Jesus told him. See, and the blind guy right away heal completely and be able to See.

Then, There was another blind guy came to ask Jesus to heal him. And Jesus after communion with God, spit on the mud and make a mud ball and massage the blind guy with the mud ball, and the blind guy heal.

Now, years later, after Jesus return to heaven.

These Two ex blind guys met. After they told thier stories how Jesus heal n them. A fight happen. The mud ball guy disagree with the Non Mud ball guy, claiming Jesus will heal only with Mud Ball....etc. The See and heal guy, also believe That is the ONLY TRUTH way how Jesus heal. That is the begining of Mud Ball healing and Anti- Mud ball healing.

So, after 2000 years, Still the Mud Ball and Anti-Mud ball believers, and keep argueing. But none have even heal any blind anymore because what they missed out is about Jesus communion with God which is the essence instead of mud ball or non mud ball which God inspired Jesus to help every individual in a unique way as needed.

IMHO, I think the process of communion with God, and be able to inspired and practice based on a unique way are important because there is the essence of the art and the adaptation of individual needs. That is about set one free and empower one.

The arguement of Mud Ball or Anti-Mud ball are just arguement based on Ego where who is the most righteous. in this case. there is none and most importantly. No one gets heal following this two teaching.

Thus, I have heard.
We call SLT, Small Details Traing Head or The Essence of traning in details of manifestation.

and what is the essence about? Certainly not the Mud Ball and Anti_Mud Ball, but the essence burried within Mud Ball and See as everyone is unique.

Hmmm...
Let me try and sort through this one and interpret for those less interested in biblical stories cast as Aesop's fables.

Hendrik feels like he's had mud slung at him. He feels he has been healed by a mud ball. This mud came from the talons of a white crane. So he postulates that all healing comes from mud from white crane talons.

Savi and Tony just had crane for dinner last night. They don't feel that moved by mud between the toes of a crane. They postulate a different source for healing mud.

Then a bunch of people come in and talk about snake oil salesmen.

So far, it appears we have all the elements of wing chun animal background on this thread - snake, and crane. Now if someone could just tell a really good story about a man-eating tiger, and tie in mud somehow, we could really be on the way to describing the essence of wing chun.

:D

Hendrik

10-15-2005, 07:11 PM

How is this possible when WWB and LYT (also actors of the Hung Suen) already had SLT CK BJ??? Answer that question Hendrik.

The whole of Wing Chun Kuen could not have come from White Crane and Emei.

Even based on your quote, that means WWB and LYT must have learned their Wing Chun from a different source prior to Yik Kam receiving his SLT training.

Stating that your Wing Chun comes from White Crane and Emei; there's no issue.

Stating that everyone's Wing Chun comes from your lineage; there's a big issue.

I guess you must be not reading YKS WCK lineage history.

Please read this:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/index.html

The proper person you want to ask is GM Sum Nung, certainly not me.

Since GM Sum Nung is the decendent of Wong Wah-Bo, Painted face kam, Fok Bo-Chuen, and Fu Siu Ching. You need to ask GM Sum Nung why is it Miu Shun in his list ?

and

BTW, you need to ask Koo Loo's GMs that why is Koo Loo's 3.5 point is based on Emei's penetrate Cloud ....set.

You know, Keith is right. Let it go. That way you are free and empower.

The more you dig the deeper you might get trap. Why bother to make yourself suffer?

You dont like my post, just ignore them.

canglong

10-16-2005, 12:43 PM

It would be appreciated, if you want to qoute me qoute me properly.Re-read what you posted hendrik nowhere in it were you quoted.
Originally posted by KPM
---Other than the nick name of "Tan Sau Ng"....what is the evidence that Cheung Ng actually practiced and taught Wing Chun? I don't ask this as a challenge, but as a true enquiry, because I've never seen it stated and would like to know if it exists.http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/family_tree.php

Pg 40-43 Mastering Kung Ku
Both historical pointers and scientific principles lend credence to Cheung Ng's exalted position in Chinese opera and his contributions to Wing Chun.
Originally posted by hendrik
Since GM Sum Nung is the decendent of Wong Wah-Bo, Painted face kam, Fok Bo-Chuen, and Fu Siu Ching. You need to ask GM Sum Nung why is it Miu Shun in his list ? Sum Nung also has some interesting things to say about the origins of Wing Chun you can also ask him about.http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_legends.html
Originally posted by hendrik
BTW, you need to ask Koo Loo's GMs that why is Koo Loo's 3.5 point is based on Emei's penetrate Cloud ....set.That question has already been answered...
" Upon reaching retirement, Leung Jan returned to his native Gu Lao. While there, he taught a few local students his synthesis of Wing Chun. Instead of focussing on teaching the Wing Chun forms, dummy set and weapon sets that were choreographed by the Opera members, he focused his training on the forty short routines and San Sao drills, pole techniques and double knife techniques. These became known as the Gu Lao Sae Sup Dim (40 points) Wing Chun system. The 40 points are the loose expression and application of Wing Chun Kuen. So his immediate disciples are the ones he taught in Fatshan while Leung Jan was younger then so naturally the Fatshan Disciples would posses some knowledge that those pupils in Gu Lao might not have when he started teaching his 40 point WC system."It's a synthasis and loose expression of Wing Chun.
Now a few question for you hendrik...
Why do Official Chinese records distinctly record Wing Chun and White Crane as 2 seperate arts?
Besides your own family history what Wing Chun lineage trace their history to white crane?

Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. - Rene Ritchie Do you dispute this statement?

KPM

10-16-2005, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by KPM
---Other than the nick name of "Tan Sau Ng"....what is the evidence that Cheung Ng actually practiced and taught Wing Chun? I don't ask this as a challenge, but as a true enquiry, because I've never seen it stated and would like to know if it exists.

Tony's answer:
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/h...amily_tree.php

---OK, so HFY puts Cheung Ng in their lineage tree. That's not exactly the evidence I was hoping for.

Pg 40-43 Mastering Kung Ku
Quote:
Both historical pointers and scientific principles lend credence to Cheung Ng's exalted position in Chinese opera and his contributions to Wing Chun.

---I have read the book. Looks of good stories set to print. Nothing that could be construed as an historical work....no footnotes....no references....no sources listed. So its pretty pointless to quote from there. That's like quoting from someone else's post in this forum.

Sum Nung also has some interesting things to say about the origins of Wing Chun you can also ask him about.http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/...y_legends.html

---Yes. You are right. Lets see what Sum Nung had to say:
"uen sut (zhuan shuo, legends) hold that the art that would become Wing Chun kuen began roughly 200 years ago with the nun Ng Mui (Wumei, Five Plums). Ng Mui fled the destruction of the Siu Lam Jee (Shaolin Si, Young Forest Temple) Temple in Fujian province and, hunted by Ching troops, sought refuge at the Bak Hok Jee (Baihe Si, White Crane Temple) atop the Emei Mountains in Sichuan province. There, Ng Mui witnessed a battle between a snake and a crane. This inspired her to create a new martial arts system which she named “white crane boxing” after the noble after the noble bird that had ultimately proven victorious.
Ng Mui taught the art to a monk named Miu Shun (Miao Shun). Combining the nun’s white crane boxing with his previous martial knowledge and refining both, Miu Shun developed a new, as yet unnamed art."

---Note that this is acknowledged as "legend", and not as historical fact. But it shows a pretty interesting bringing together of references to White Crane and Emei as well as Miu Shun. Note that Ng Mui's method is refered to as "the nun's white crane boxing." Note that Mui Shun combined it with his previous knowledge. This was in the area of Emei Mountain....so its possible and plausible that the "previous knowledge" referred to was Emei martial arts. This legend also traces back to the Shaolin Temple. But note that I have never denied the possibility of contributions from Shaolin, just the idea that Wing Chun represents the final evolution and development of everything Shaolin. Tony, nothing you are posting is helping your position. I think its time to let it go.

Keith

Hendrik

10-16-2005, 02:15 PM

Canglong,

You are absoulutely right.

If I took your perspective, speculating Logic from the your perspective....etc. I will end up similar to your conclusion and believe.

However, this world has so many different perspective.

So, I can agree with you totally when I take your perspective as the reference point. I can also have my own perspective as the reference point.

Thus, I will say you are absolutely Correct with your perspective setting.
Dont we feel great that we can embrace so many perspectives and not stuck with one?

canglong

10-16-2005, 03:04 PM

originally posted by kpm
---OK, so HFY puts Cheung Ng in their lineage tree. That's not exactly the evidence I was hoping for.
Earlier all you wanted to go with was opinion when you stated...

originally posted by KPM
....when I look at White Crane and the Hakka arts I see lots of similarities to Wing Chun. When I look at Shaolin arts I see very few. That is not to say that Shaolin did not link in somewhere in the past. But I don't see Wing Chun being the culmination and final evolution of the Shaolin martial arts.
Not able to disprove others evidence you just refuse to acknowledge it. Always working underground and clearly a member of a secret association the fact that Cheung Ng is listed on anyone's family tree is very significant whether you choose to acknowledge this fact or not. That aside though, you can easily research the opera records on your own.
Tony, nothing you are posting is helping your position. I think its time to let it go.

originally posted by KPM
This legend also traces back to the Shaolin Temple. But note that I have never denied the possibility of contributions from Shaolin, just the idea that Wing Chun represents the final evolution and development of everything Shaolin. Keith,
You almost sound like an advocate of Shaolin as the origin of Wing Chun yet you are also straying off topic re-read your past few post. Let me help you out here maybe you can provide the answers that hendrik can't seem to bring himself to answer.

Liddel

10-16-2005, 03:22 PM

Other older styles have undergone huge changes as generations have come and gone (being older) but MHO is that the original Ving Tsun is very "similar" to Ip Man Ving Tsun from the 50s.

We know the teaching method has changed greatly over generations, but i believe that because there is so few people as we trace from GM Ip back to our founder Yim Ving Tsun, the art itself hasnt had the opportunity to change as much as other arts...

Some will stronly disagree but to me it makes sence.

Hendrik

10-16-2005, 08:12 PM

anerlich

10-16-2005, 10:31 PM

IMHO, we might be able to use the mathematical concept to solve the Original Wing Chun issues.

Well, nothing else has come close to working, so why the heck not try that :p :p

canglong

10-17-2005, 02:23 AM

While it seems more likely that Cheung taught the northern, opera-oriented martial arts to the Red Junk performers rather than anything substantively similar to Wing Chun Kuen, his influence on the Red Junk is undeniable and it is not impossible to imagine that his legacy may have played some part in what eventually became known as Wing Chun Kuen in later generations.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:gmyvdFUCwAIJ:www.wingchunkuen.com/who/founders/cheungng.html+%22Eighteen+plays+of+Cantonese+Opera %22&hl=en

In the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) one man, Cheung Ng [張五] (1720 AD) a northern opera actor, had a great influenced on present day Yuet Kahk. Escaping authorities due to his anti-Manchu activities, he fled southwards to Canton. Hiding out amongst Cantonese opera troupes he taught and past the knowledge of performing the traditional "Eighteen plays of Cantonese Opera"(江湖十八本). His contributions earned him a place in Taoist opera heaven, where he along with the God of Chinese Opera "Waih Gong"(華光) is worshiped by "Disciples of the Pear Garden" at every performance.
http://www.ccschelpinghand.20m.com/events/cantoneseopera/

The Shaolin Temple monk, Yi Chum, was said by Pan Nam to be the true founder of Wing Chun. Yi Chum taught Tan Sau Ng, who taught Dai Fa Min Kam, Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei (Leung Jan's teachers) and so on until Pan Nam (see lineage chart here).
http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/pan-tree.jpg
http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/pannam1.htm
Thus, we can say that the techniques of WingChun was perfected by the grandmasters of Hung Fa Wui Koon and passed on to today. That is why, we cannot ignore Grandmaster Cheung Ng. with nickname of Tan-Sau Ng. Grandmaster Cheung Ng. was mentioned in a book on Cantonese Opera. According to Sifu Ip Chun, Grandmaster Cheung Ng. taught kung-fu to people in Red boat:

Later, I unexpectedly unearthed some information about Tan-Sau Ng. recorded in old literature on the history of Chinese opera. This information closely connected to the origin of VingTsun. There was a book by one Mak Siu Har -“A Study on the History of Cantonese Opera” (now kept in the Hongkong’City Hall library) In it there was a paragraph, roughly as follows: before the reign of Yung Cheng (Manchu emperor, 1723-1736 ), the development of Cantonese opera was very limited. This was due to defective organization and unclear division of labor . In the years of Yung Cheng , Cheung Ng.of Wu Pak, also known as Tan-Sau Ng., brought his skills to Fat Shan and organized the Hung Fa Wui Koon. The book also records: Besides being very accomplished in Chinese opera, Cheung Ng was especially proficient in martial arts. His one Tan-Sau was peerless throughout the martial arts world. Another piece of information appears on page 631, Volume III of the book “A History of Chinese Opera” by Mang Yiu, published by Chuen Kay Literature Publishers, first printed in 1968. “For some reasons, Cheung Ng. could not stay on in the capital , so he fled and took refuge in Fat Shan. This was during the reign og Yung Cheng. This man, nicknamed Tan-Sau Ng. was a charater "unsurpassed in literary and military skills, and excellent in music and drama". He was especially proficient in the techniques of Siu Lam. After settling down in Fat Shan, he passed on his knowledge in traditional opera and martial arts to the Hung Suyen (Red Boat) followers, and established the Hung Fa Wui Koon in Fat Shan. Today, Cantonese opera groups revere him as Jo-si (Founding Master), and refer to him as Master Cheung”
http://www.wingchun.com.vn/lichsu/Tua_phaheVXVN_e.htm
http://www.wingchun.com.vn/indexE.htm (see Family tree)

The History Of Wing Chun #3
by Sifu John Lapham

For Yip Chuns conclusions on the above research you will have to
buy the book. What follows is strictly my opinion.
While every WC teacher on the planet (at least the ones I know of)
teaches that Ng Mui was the original and soul creator of Wing Chun,
I find it interesting that there is no actual documentation (that I
know of) to support the claim. The reason the documentation that Yip
Chun found is so interesting is that it predates Yip Man and by the
sounds of the book it even predates Yim Wing Chun, possibly by as
much as 100 years. Also, this history gives some credit to the elusive
"Red Boat Wing Chun".

While I do not believe that this is the one true history of the art
I do believe it is a very important part in the struggle to piece
together the puzzle of Wing Chun's true history and the intent
of its use.

http://www.nswingchun.com/nswc3a.htm

KPM

10-17-2005, 03:31 AM

Hey Tony!

Earlier all you wanted to go with was opinion when you stated...

---In a polite and sincere fashion I asked if any evidence that Cheung Ng practiced Wing Chun had been found.

Always working underground and clearly a member of a secret association the fact that Cheung Ng is listed on anyone's family tree is very significant whether you choose to acknowledge this fact or not.

---Yes. I acknowledge that fact. But it would carry much more weight if that family tree could be attributed to at least one prior generation. Nothing about Cheung Ng being connected to Wing Chun is mentioned (that I am aware of) prior to Pan Nam. It is possible that Pan Nam discovered the same Opera documents mentioning Cheung Ng that Yip Chun found. I'm sorry, the fact that nothing is known or said about Cheung Ng being connected to Wing Chun until that Opera document is unearthed just raises the skeptic in me.

You almost sound like an advocate of Shaolin as the origin of Wing Chun yet you are also straying off topic re-read your past few post.

---We are talking about historical origins. Just where have I gone off topic? I've already stated several times, and you even quoted me on it.....I have never denied the idea that Shaolin likely had some input into the origins of Wing Chun. What I find inplausible and hard to believe is the theory that Wing Chun represents the end result of the development of Shaolin....the final evolution.

Let me help you out here maybe you can provide the answers that hendrik can't seem to bring himself to answer.

---I've already answered that proposal on this thread.

---On the other hand.....your post about Cheung Ng's history is a good one. Thank you for putting the time into doing that. I think this quote sums things up fairly well:
"While it seems more likely that Cheung taught the northern, opera-oriented martial arts to the Red Junk performers rather than anything substantively similar to Wing Chun Kuen, his influence on the Red Junk is undeniable and it is not impossible to imagine that his legacy may have played some part in what eventually became known as Wing Chun Kuen in later generations."

---From what you posted I think we can safely conclude that Cheung Ng's existance as an historical character is documented in the Opera records and that he was active in the period of 1723-1736, that he was a martial artist with the nickname "Tan Sau Ng", and that his martial arts style was related to Shaolin. This does not firmly establish that he practiced and taught Wing Chun. There were other martial arts on the Red Boats other than Wing Chun. His nickname of "Tan Sau Ng" is a good inference. So a good question for those familiar with other styles is this......is the term "Tan Sau" unique to exclusive to Wing Chun?

Keith

DRleungjan

10-17-2005, 09:29 AM

From what you posted I think we can safely conclude that Cheung Ng's existance as an historical character is documented in the Opera records and that he was active in the period of 1723-1736, that he was a martial artist with the nickname "Tan Sau Ng", and that his martial arts style was related to Shaolin. This does not firmly establish that he practiced and taught Wing Chun. There were other martial arts on the Red Boats other than Wing Chun. His nickname of "Tan Sau Ng" is a good inference. So a good question for those familiar with other styles is this......is the term "Tan Sau" unique to exclusive to Wing Chun?

From the little that I know...the 'Tan Sau' was also known as the beggar's hand according to my readings. I need to look that up again. And that's one of the lores behind the Jeung Ng character, that when he fled south from the capital he hid amongst the ordinary people by posing as a beggar while carrying his other activities at night. So the double connotation is there...'Beggar Hand Ng?'. Don't mind me just thinking out loud here. It is funny how the gamut of Chinese writings is filled with multiple meanings. It is why imo it is a little harder to sort these things out.

Regards,
DRleungjan
:)

Hendrik

10-17-2005, 10:55 AM

From the little that I know...the 'Tan Sau' was also known as the beggar's hand according to my readings. I need to look that up again. And that's one of the lores behind the Jeung Ng character, that when he fled south from the capital he hid amongst the ordinary people by posing as a beggar while carrying his other activities at night. So the double connotation is there...'Beggar Hand Ng?'. Don't mind me just thinking out loud here. It is funny how the gamut of Chinese writings is filled with multiple meanings. It is why imo it is a little harder to sort these things out.

Regards,
DRleungjan
:)

Another presentation is that Tan can be slight disable (ie polio)... So depend on who's version of article, things varies.

Tan Sau Ng did exist and he is real guy. As for which Shao lin artial art lineage he studies or teach that is unknown presently. May be some one can find an evident of what Tan Sau Ng really practice. that will help solve lots of issues.

IMHO, using the Mathermatical dy/dt. Tan Sau Ng exist afterthe collapse of Ming and the burning of Shao Lin.

IMHO, As we see from Yip Man WCK, YKS, Cho family histories, Wing Chun was created after Shao LIn was burn down -- Be it When Ng Mui on the run, Ng Mui teaching her new art to YWC, Ng Mui teaches to Miu Shun in West of Canton/Sze Chuan or Emei area, Miu Shun developed his new styles.....

Thus, with a SPLINE interpolation model, the Tan Sau Ng model doesnt address the Technology source of WCK. And from the above, It seems that Shao Lin cant be developing WCK and Tan Sau Ng is very likely doing the Shao Lin might be from Weng Chun Dien....etc. However, with the SPINE interpolation model, It is not likely that Tan Sao Ng will know SLT or WCK since SLT or WCK is a later day creation. unless he knows Miu Shun and learning that from Miu. However, one is in Emei the other is else where. and inadditonal, even if Tan Sao Ng learn the art from Miu Shun, Tan is not the creator of WCK. With a Spline Interpolation Model. This is clear. and Shao Lin cannot be creating WCK or SLT since the Time period is wrong.

And on the other hand, on Technology, as I point out before in my post on the pre-and post Qing Shao Lin Technology, Fang Chie-Niang was already teaching in 1650's. and we also know that White Crane of Fujian was influencing what is the so-Called Southern Shao Lin and not the other direction.

Tan Sau which is look a like and having the similar concept as the Water shape hand of White Crane from Fujian exist in the Southern China of Fujian in 1650.
But, Tan Sao Ng is from 1700 which is 50 years later then Fang Weng Chun or Fang chie-Niang was teaching in Fujian 1650. Thus, What is the Tan sau of Tan Sau NG? a new invention? if so then what is it based from. and even if it is a new invention, how is it new compare with Fang Chie-Niang who had already teaching this type of hand shape in 1650?

Not to mention, is Tan Sao Ng's Tan Sau based on the Broken arrow platform or Non Broken Arrow platform. as we know these different platform rely on different Engine.

So, What is Tan Sao Ng art's Enginee?

I love the Spine Interpolation Model which I talked about in the above post, we fit in as much data as possible and it form a model naturally. In this case, IMHO, using the Spline Interpolation Model the Advocate of Shao Lin develop WCK in Weng Chun Din and transmitting the art to Tan Sau Ng... etc doesnt have enough Data to form a close form function. Thus, from the prediction of Spline interpolation model. When we use the Shao Lin Weng Chun Din develop WCK theory, we always need some hand waving or help from Secret Society, History, Anti-Qing to help Explain the Gap or open end or discontinouity of the theory or "function" if we look at it mathermatically.

As for the White Crane emei theory it is a close function without discontinouity be it if will look at it from the stand point of history, technology, and mother DNA.

IMHO,

Since the development of White Crane of Fujian + Emei 12 Zhuang = SLT theory was completely done. These days, I look at that as a theory, Shao Lin theory as a theory.

ANd suggest we all look at all the theory in equal weight with SPLINE INTERPOLATION, that way, let the SPLINE INTERPOLATION tells me about the characteristics of any particular Theory. And we can just relax.
It is always good to understand where things come from.
Well, however both are just theories with different characteristics.

I wont take it as religion fanatic to argue about for that is a waste of life.

Hendrik

10-17-2005, 11:07 AM

From the little that I know...the 'Tan Sau' was also known as the beggar's hand according to my readings. I need to look that up again. And that's one of the lores behind the Jeung Ng character, that when he fled south from the capital he hid amongst the ordinary people by posing as a beggar while carrying his other activities at night. So the double connotation is there...'Beggar Hand Ng?'. Don't mind me just thinking out loud here. It is funny how the gamut of Chinese writings is filled with multiple meanings. It is why imo it is a little harder to sort these things out.

Regards,
DRleungjan
:)

Another presentation is that Tan can be slight disable (ie polio)... So depend on who's version of article, things varies.

Tan Sau Ng did exist and he is real guy. As for which Shao lin artial art lineage he studies or teach that is unknown presently. May be some one can find an evident of what Tan Sau Ng really practice. that will help solve lots of issues.

IMHO, using the Mathermatical dy/dt. Tan Sau Ng exist after the burning of Shao Lin.

IMHO, As we see from Yip Man WCK, YKS, Cho family histories, Wing Chun was created after Shao LIn was burn down -- Be it When Ng Mui on the run, Ng Mui teaching her new art to YWC, Ng Mui teaches to Miu Shun in West of Canton/Sze Chuan or Emei area, Miu Shun developed his new styles.....

Thus, with a SPLINE interpolation model, the Tan Sau Ng model doesnt address the Technology source of WCK. And from the above, It seems that Shao Lin cant be developing WCK and Tan Sau Ng is very likely doing the Shao Lin might be from Weng Chun Dien....etc. However, with the SPINE interpolation model, It is not likely that Tan will know SLT or WCK since SLT or WCK is a later day creation.

And on the other hand, as I point out before in my post on the pre-and post Qing Shao Lin Technology, Fang Chie-Niang was already teaching in 1650's. and we also know that White Crane of Fujian was influencing what is the so-Called Southern Shao Lin and not the other direction.

Tan Sau which is look a like and having the similar concept as the Water shape hand of White Crane from Fujian exist in the Southern China of Fujian in 1650.
But, Tan Sao Ng is from 1700 which is 50 years later then Fang Weng Chun or Fang chie-Niang was teaching in Fujian 1650. Thus, What is the Tan sau of Tan Sau NG? a new invention? if so then what is it based from. and even if it is a new invention, how is it new compare with Fang Chie-Niang who had already teaching this type of hand shape in 1650?

Not to mention, is Tan Sao Ng's Tan Sau based on the Broken arrow platform or Non Broken Arrow platform. as we know these different platform rely on different Engine.

So, What is Tan Sao Ng art's Enginee?

I love the Spine Interpolation Model which I talked about in the above post, we fit in as much data as possible and it form a model naturally. In this case, IMHO, using the Spline Interpolation Model the Advocate of Shao Lin develop WCK in Weng Chun Din and transmitting the art to Tan Sau Ng... etc doesnt have enough Data to form a close form function. Thus, from the prediction of Spline interpolation model. When we use the Shao Lin Weng Chun Din develop WCK theory, we always need some hand waving or help from Secret Society, History, Anti-Qing to help Explain the Gap or open end or discontinouity of the theory or "function" if we look at it mathermatically.

As for the White Crane emei theory it is a close function without discontinouity be it if will look at it from the stand point of history, technology, and mother DNA.

IMHO,
It is always good to understand where things come from.
Well, however both are just theories with different characteristics. I wont take it as religion fanatic to argue about for that is a waste of life.

Wayfaring

10-17-2005, 11:25 AM

IMHO, we might be able to use the mathematical concept to solve the Original Wing Chun issues.

Contradict with some historians who think we have no clue with before Red Boat Era. I believe by using "differentiation" or cut down the time period of the legend and then matching and compare what type of "technology" is available in China at that time.

IE: if we take Gm Sung Num's article, we can cut the legend of WCK into different pieces such as:

1, Before Ming's Down Fall.
2, After Ming's Down Fall.
3, Before Burning of Shao Lin
4, After Burning of Shao Lin when Ng Mui is on the Run
5, Before Miu Shun while Ng mui is on the Run
6, After Miu Shun
7, Before Red Boat and after Miu Shun
8, red boat before Uprising
9, red boat at the Uprising
10,red boat after the Qing ambush and destroy the fine jade associatio
11, when Cantonese opera was banned in Canton
12, after Cantonese opera was legalized again...

From these secmented 12 period of time or Dy/Dt , we can trace the technology of Chinese MA at that time. So instead of similar to interpolation and exterpolation in mathermatics.

Now, and interesting question can be asked. When is WCK or SLT exist in the earliest period of time?

At the burning of Shao Lin? after burning of Shao Lin? when Ng mUi on the run? At Miu Shun appear? After Miu Shun appear? ...etc

Now, again, similar to the SPLINE, we can piecewise linear predict or model what could be happen.

Say, if SLT or WCK happen after Miu Shun appear. Then Ng mui cant know about this art while she is on the run. May be after Miu Shun Show it to her later, but not before because SLT or WCK was not created yet. In this case, the people from Shao Lin can not possible know what is SLT unless they have a car to go back to the future similar to the movie. ...

And if we carried this into details based on the condition and technology and history at each particular of time. We can come up with something similar to SPLINE
http://www.physics.utah.edu/~detar/phycs6720/handouts/cubic_spline/cubic_spline/node1.html

To interpolate what is very possible happen. and that is real scientific instead of simply choose a function as we likes it and argue to the death of who is right.

Just some thoughts,

Hendrik,

While your division of time may have some merit as to classification of periods and identifying legends, artifacts, writings according to those time periods, to try and utilize a SPLINE model for these is problematic in a few areas:

1) We have no distinct data points for interpolation like physics models, mostly stories

2) If you identify a story in a period, there is no real way to tell whether the story actually originated in that period, or in a previous and was passed down by oral legend.

3) Identifying what "technology" existed in a period w/r to a hand / pole combat system is problematic in that it's hard to pinpoint reference points.

4) This model is not embraced by any anthropological or historical researchers as effective.

5) What effective way is there to determine whether a historic record is of an actual person or a legend. For example, Ng Mui exists in many family lineage histories, yet modern evidence points toward her being a mythical figure who exists to preserve the intent of her name as opposed to being a real historical figure.

But then again, that's just my theory. You can accept or reject and still be right depending on your point of view ;)

Wayfaring

10-17-2005, 11:35 AM

Hendrik

10-17-2005, 11:54 AM

Hendrik,

But then again, that's just my theory. You can accept or reject and still be right depending on your point of view ;)

You certainly have excellent points. And thanks and appreciate for your feedback.

While your division of time may have some merit as to classification of periods and identifying legends, artifacts, writings according to those time periods, to try and utilize a SPLINE model for these is problematic in a few areas:-------

You are right. as for the probematic, sure it will arise. However IMHO to have a SPLINE model is better to have non and keep hand waving.

We can develop better model later when we need to solve the problem arise. IMHO.

1) We have no distinct data points for interpolation like physics models, mostlly stories ----

You can be right. Depend on how one look at things.

However, if we collect enough random and different field data and deep enought or vast enough data based, statically a pattern shall surface. whether we like or can aceept (because it oppos our believe )what it is sulface that is a different story. IMHO.

2) If you identify a story in a period, there is no real way to tell whether the story actually originated in that period, or in a previous and was passed down by oral legend.-------

IMHO, the beauty of the SPLINE model is we dont make decision. It is similar to the Artifical Inteligent Neuron programing.
We just fit in all data and keep testing if the model converge while the function adaptively inteligently modified itself everytime it run the data.

3) Identifying what "technology" existed in a period w/r to a hand / pole combat system is problematic in that it's hard to pinpoint reference points.-----

You are right again.

It is problematic.

However, as we collect more and more data and run more and more run to fit the SPLINE we can get something close continouity form and we know the SPLine Model's strenght and weakness or Trend. Atleast that is better then the Open or discontinuity function where we all hand waving and always has to use "story" to explain.

We actually dont need to pinpoint A reference points, we can either use the big picture or small detail to guide us. Similar to integration while solveing physics questions. started from zero or from infinity.... etc

4) This model is not embraced by any anthropological or historical researchers as effective.-------

One can actually includes and embrace all espect or realm, we have computer to do the data collection and orgainzation and interlating and sorting job for us now a day.

5) What effective way is there to determine whether a historic record is of an actual person or a legend. For example, Ng Mui exists in many family lineage histories, yet modern evidence points toward her being a mythical figure who exists to preserve the intent of her name as opposed to being a real historical figure. -------

I suggest to look at , Ng mui in the model is just a label. It can be label as anything from Technics to human to...special code...etc. B

ut, if we enter all the data about Ng Mui into our data based, the weigthing of correlation with White Crane of Fujian surface, IE: Sam Diem Ng Mui Fa....... Ng Mui link with White crane......

So from here things will surface...

For me, Life is simple, are we focusing at problem or focusing on solution? and if we focus on solution. we are going to find it, either the solution fit our guess or not we have to accept that. Similar to praying to God asking for help. How God is going to help that is God's will. We just accept and embrase all possibility. and sometimes, God might guides us to say we are wrong. that that is ok. because we do got the help to know we are wrong.

But, if we are not asking for Help instead we complaining we are stuck. The we will be always stuck because we are complaining not asking to resolve the issues.

As one think So Shall one be. That is life or Artificial Inteligent of Human Kind, and it based on where do one focus, IMHO.

DRleungjan

10-17-2005, 01:00 PM

Hendrik, you said,

Tan Sau Ng did exist and he is real guy. As for which Shao lin artial art lineage he studies or teach that is unknown presently. May be some one can find an evident of what Tan Sau Ng really practice. that will help solve lots of issues.

I guess we can start with this...do we know what arts were roughly practiced in Bak Siu Lam between the years of about 1570 (when Dragon Gung Fu sources state that the temple was burnt down for the first time) to let's say about 1720's when suppossedly Yat Chum Dai Si (or Um Ji depending on the version) might have taught Jeung Ng? Are there any written documentation etc.? I am suppossing that Siu Lum was at the time experimenting with and synthesising many of the prototypes that would become todays martial arts.

Hendrik

10-17-2005, 02:08 PM

I guess we can start with this...do we know what arts were roughly practiced in Bak Siu Lam between the years of about 1570 (when Dragon Gung Fu sources state that the temple was burnt down for the first time)-------L

Do you mean 1670 or 1570.

IMHO,
I suggest you dig up my previous post in KFo looking at the technology available for the Shao Lin pre or post the Qing for a time span of about 100 years.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34884

to let's say about 1720's when suppossedly Yat Chum Dai Si (or Um Ji depending on the version) might have taught Jeung Ng? ------L

1570 to 1720 is along time. Dig up my previous post Lots of things happen between 1570 to 1720. the whole China is in big big chaos and changes.

As for Yat Chum Dai Si, we need to find a signature or uniqueness about him. It is ok if it is just Yat Chum's martial art signature. We need to know him interm of who is he and what kind of martial art he is doing. we need to prove he exist with his martial art DNA.

IE: we dont know who is Miu Shun, but we know from YKS/Sung Num that Miu shun exist in the area of Emei, from Cho family we know Miu Shun learn the white crane art from Ng Mui in Kui Lin, and we found the trace of Miu Shun's SLT Kuen Kuit quoting the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen Kuit of Emei.

We dont know who is Ng Mui, but we know Ng Mui does White Crane and the term Sam Dim Ng Mui Fa is White Crane term and there is Fang Chie-Niang who was a Nun at one point of her life.

Same with Tan Sau Ng, we know he contributed big to the cantonese opera. But we dont know the rest.

IE: compare with Jacky Chan today in HongKong action Movie. 200 years later will people in the future think Jacky is the gate holder of WCK because Jacky plays woodern dummy in his movie ....

Jacky is great however is he a really Gate holder of WCK?

Are there any written documentation etc.? I am suppossing that Siu Lum was at the time experimenting with and synthesising many of the prototypes that would become todays martial arts. -----L

Again, Please dig up my post about Shao Lin technology. you will see lots of things there.

BTW,

There is a Monk Dong Chan. Who is an Anti-Qing. This person might be who "Chi Sim" was potrated. IMHHO. Dong Chan existed However he was not in the same Anti-Qing Camp with the General in Taiwan who was closed to White Crane of Fujian. The Taiwan connection is using the Fang Weng Chun White CRane from Fujian type.

Dong Chan's Kung Fu is different compare with Fang's White Crane.

I would GUESS if Tan Sau Ng was trained in Shao LIn, then chances of Tan Sau Ng's shao lin is closer to Dong Chan is very big. ( NOTE: THIS IS JUST MY GUESS and SPECULATION . NO PROVE AT ALL. BUT WE WANT TO GUESS and SPECULATE TO SEE IF THINGS FIT IN)

Since at that time, two major lead of Anti-Qing Martial art group are the Fang Weng Chun's white crane which we today know was used by the Ming Solder in Taiwan. and Dong Chan's Shao Lin martial art.

So, if one is not from one camp then there is very likely one is from another camp.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34884

WCK is very likely a product created from the White Crane of Fang Weng Chun camp combine with the Emei. While Dong Chan has his Camp. So I would say it would be not supprise that Tan Sau Ng carry Dong Chan's art. and later All decendent of Anti-Qing met in the Red Boat at around 1840, talking about the next uprising where Lee Man-Mau who is the decendent of White Crane from Fujian was in the lead. Lee left his name in the history as a leader of this uprising. Where else others might have participated but not lead.

There is a great possibility that there are more big short behind Lee Man Mau.

However, IMHO, I think it is not likely. Why? simple, if the Qing can track down Dong Chan at the begining of Qing dynasty when China is still not totally in thier control. and in 1860's ambush Fine Jade association.

Whoever big will be mark. another point is that, the founder of Choy Lee Fut, since he was training the uprising solder, he had to fleet when the uprising fail.

So, we can petty safely said that Qing has lots of people track. and if one is big short for sometimes, Qing knows. Thus, I am not convince about Hung Gam biu is bigger then Lee Man Mau or the founder of CLF. who thier names appear in history of the 1860's uprising.

As for why I get this far with the history of WCK. it is simply that if SLT = White Crane + Emei's art then using Dong Chan's Key is not going to turn on the SLT. and vice versal.
Dont we want to know because we have spend so many decades of our life in doing SLT?
How exciting it will be the day we can turn on the enginee of our SLT.

and It doesnt matter if it needs the Key from Dong Chan or Miu Shun. Because that way we all win and there is no camp or mud ball or anti-mud ball. Just an open heart camp and that is the WC camp. IMHHHHHO.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to the chinese classical shao lin book---
Shao Lin martial art secret key.

In the era of down fall of Ming Dynasty,
There was a member of Ming royal family, his name is Chu De Chou. After he became a shao lin monk his name is Dong Chan or painfull Zen. (This person was a famous character if one read some old book writen about shao lin martial art. )

However, This person give up his buddhist monk position a few years after he become a buddist monk. He then growed his hair and bead and went to kwang xi planning to uprise to revenge Ming. he failed.

After the failling uprising, he went back to shao lin.

Qing found out about his back ground and plan to capture him. He then fleet to Taiwan, offer his advise to the leader there. The leader didnt listern to his idea. He fell into depression and passed away in a place name Tan Sui.

------------------------------------

Thus, we today have alots of records we can check out and to study to see if a certain thing is likely, possible, not likely...

That is what I am leaving to you and the future generation.

Not about who is the oldest or I am right or wrong....
But, about there are writtings in old china can be checked and traced.

IMHHO,
Those stuffs is not that old actually since we can still see the declaration of independence of USA http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/images/declar.jpg

canglong

10-17-2005, 02:36 PM

originally posted by KPM
I think this quote sums things up fairly well:
"While it seems more likely that Cheung taught the northern, opera-oriented martial arts to the Red Junk performers rather than anything substantively similar to Wing Chun Kuen, his influence on the Red Junk is undeniable and it is not impossible to imagine that his legacy may have played some part in what eventually became known as Wing Chun Kuen in later generations."
For people not inclined to use a families tree as evidence that is understandable but for those including each piece of information as evidence clearly Cheung Ng being on several family trees provides more evidence to follow up on.
originally posted by KPM
---From what you posted I think we can safely conclude that Cheung Ng's existance as an historical character is documented in the Opera records and that he was active in the period of 1723-1736, that he was a martial artist with the nickname "Tan Sau Ng", and that his martial arts style was related to Shaolin. This does not firmly establish that he practiced and taught Wing Chun. There were other martial arts on the Red Boats other than Wing Chun. His nickname of "Tan Sau Ng" is a good inference. So a good question for those familiar with other styles is this......is the term "Tan Sau" unique to exclusive to Wing Chun?Good point "Tan Sau Ng" + Shaolin yes good inference and a valid question.
originally posted by DRleungjan
From the little that I know...the 'Tan Sau' was also known as the beggar's hand according to my readings. I need to look that up again. And that's one of the lores behind the Jeung Ng character, that when he fled south from the capital he hid amongst the ordinary people by posing as a beggar while carrying his other activities at night. So the double connotation is there...'Beggar Hand Ng?'. Don't mind me just thinking out loud here. It is funny how the gamut of Chinese writings is filled with multiple meanings. It is why imo it is a little harder to sort these things out.

The book also records: Besides being very accomplished in Chinese opera, Cheung Ng was especially proficient in martial arts. His one Tan-Sau was peerless throughout the martial arts world. Another piece of information appears on page 631, Volume III of the book “A History of Chinese Opera” by Mang Yiu, published by Chuen Kay Literature Publishers, first printed in 1968. “For some reasons, Cheung Ng. could not stay on in the capital , so he fled and took refuge in Fat Shan. This was during the reign og Yung Cheng. This man, nicknamed Tan-Sau Ng. was a charater "unsurpassed in literary and military skills, and excellent in music and drama". He was especially proficient in the techniques of Siu Lam. After settling down in Fat Shan, he passed on his knowledge in traditional opera and martial arts to the Hung Suyen (Red Boat) followers, and established the Hung Fa Wui Koon in Fat Shan. Today, Cantonese opera groups revere him as Jo-si (Founding Master), and refer to him as Master Cheung”
Those would be extrordinary accomplishments for a lowly beggar. Which is why it is most often reported that the beggars description was thought to be a cover for his revolutionary activities if even a valid description of Cheung Ng at all.

DRLeungjan,
Have you seen the term Hung Suen in the book Complete Wing Chun.

canglong

10-17-2005, 05:31 PM

originally posted by KPM
So a good question for those familiar with other styles is this......is the term "Tan Sau" unique to exclusive to Wing Chun?From Yip Chun,

Cheung Ng, also known as Tan-Sau Ng, not only excelled in martial arts, but actually taught the techniques himself. He was called 'Tan-Sau Ng' because of his 'tan sau……..peerless throughout the martial arts world'.
Comparing the legend of Yim Wing Chun with the information on Tan-Sau Ng, I consider the latter more acceptable in our examination of Wing Chun's origins.
The reasons are as follows:
1) Cheung Ng brought his skills in Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the great fire of Siu Lam during the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.
2) Tan Sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun.
Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. He actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.
3) Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.
4) Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, 'Painted Face Kam', Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).
http://www.wingchunschool.com/index.cfm?action=articles&subaction=01

DRleungjan

10-17-2005, 08:54 PM

DRLeungjan,
Have you seen the term Hung Suen in the book Complete Wing Chun.

canglong,

Why would you ask? I mean I have the Complete Wing Chun book, but everyone knows that the Hung Suen were the red boats that carried the opera troupe. I've seen two terms of Hung Suen Hei Ban Wing Chun and Hung Suen Wing Chun Kuen being used on the book. :confused:

Do you mean 1670 or 1570.

Hendrik,

Thanks for the links I will read carefully. Now as for the 1570 date I got from Chow and Spanglers book Kung Fu: History, philosophy, and technique. It is on page 44 of the book. Unless that was a typo on that book *shrugs*.

Hendrik

10-17-2005, 09:32 PM

Hendrik,

Thanks for the links I will read carefully. Now as for the 1570 date I got from Chow and Spanglers book Kung Fu: History, philosophy, and technique. It is on page 44 of the book. Unless that was a typo on that book *shrugs*.

Understood. No problem.

1570 still Ming dynasty.

canglong

10-18-2005, 03:01 AM

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen (Honghua Yi Yongchunquan, Red Flower Righteous), previously referred to as Hung Suen (Red Boat) Wing Chun Kuen, was introduced by Garrett Gee of San Francisco. This branch, headquartered in San Fracisco, is said to come from Xiguan, Guangzhou, China.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:buR_te9HqisJ:www.wingchunkuen.com/what/systems/hungfayee.html+Hung+Fa+Yi+Hung+Suen+wingchunkuen&hl=en

DRleungjan,
The connection between hung suen, wing chun and Cheung Ng appear to be stronger than most because we will rarely see Cheung Ng mentioned without the other two.

stuartm

10-18-2005, 05:37 AM

:mad: :( :mad: :( .......

Is anyone else bored rigid with these endless discussions on the 'real' (sic) wing chun, who taught who, whose is best, who taught joe bloggs, is it crane and snake or emei ......................:confused:

Is there any point? How will this discussion aid your training? Do you thik it can ever be resolved and what does it matter???

Find a teacher . lineage that works for you and then do some hard training - surely its that simple??????

Its not a mile away from trainspotting and collecting stamps in the geek rankings guys..............

Stu:)

DRleungjan

10-18-2005, 11:01 AM

DRleungjan,
The connection between hung suen, wing chun and Cheung Ng appear to be stronger than most because we will rarely see Cheung Ng mentioned without the other two.

aaaah yes canglong, you are correct. You had me confused there for a tad. :)

KPM

10-18-2005, 01:06 PM

the connection between hung suen, wing chun and Cheung Ng appear to be stronger than most because we will rarely see Cheung Ng mentioned without the other two.

Could this be because Cheung Ng is seldom mentioned outside of Wing Chun circles?

Keith

reneritchie

10-18-2005, 02:00 PM

Surpised Hendrik didn't beat me to this:

(cue da base...)

It's Wing Chun, yes it's the real Wing Chun
All the other Wing Chun are just plain dumb
So won't the real Wing Chun please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up?

(slam da mic...)

canglong

10-19-2005, 06:15 AM

originally posted by KPM
Could this be because Cheung Ng is seldom mentioned outside of Wing Chun circles?Keith,
This would not seem to be the case because the most fruitful research of Cheung Ng is done under the Cantonese Opera and his stature in the Chinese operatic culture itself was enough to secure him a lasting place in Chinese history yet again he is almost never mentioned for that alone because of his military prowess and association with not only Hung Fa Wui Koon but also hung suen and wing chun in particular probably because of his nickname "Tan Sau Ng". Though if you are suggesting that the red boats are synonymous with wing chun then yes that quite possibly could be agreed upon.
The opera continued to develop through the 14th century influence of Chuanqi (Marvelous Tales), the 16th century influence of Kunqu from Jiansu Province, the 17th century move away from common clothing to specialty costumes, and the 18th century arrival of Zhang Wu (Cheung Ng).

Zhang Wu, also known as Zhang Xin (Cheung Hin), hailed from Hubei and worked as a singer in Beijing. Highly accomplished in opera, excellent in both music and drama, Zhang was also said to be unsurpassed in martial skill, especially the techniques of "Shaolin" (Siu Lum, Young Forest, though it is not clear whether this was Henan Shaolin Temple boxing system proper, or the so-called Shaolin-School which included many related and unrelated "external" arts).

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=539

KPM

10-20-2005, 03:02 AM

Hey Tony!

This would not seem to be the case because the most fruitful research of Cheung Ng is done under the Cantonese Opera

---Do those Opera documents mention both the Red Boats and Wing Chun by name? Because the quote you provided does not. It would be very interesting and very supportive if the Opera documents independent of anything to do with Wing Chun....talked about both Cheung Ng and Wing Chun (by name) together. But I haven't seen that. That's why I asked the original question of you.

Keith

mexenergy

10-20-2005, 06:43 AM

Hey Guys,

Well, blah blah..blah blah blah..HFY is really the source of blah blah blah blah. TAn sau ng is blah blah blah blah from red boat blah blah. Blah blah shaolin blah blah blah ng mui blah blah. Blah Balh blah? EMei blah snake from blah blah blah. Right Lawrence, blah blah blah. Remember. And FWCrane , oh, blah blah blah blah to the YC. Blah blah. And that's the original wing chun. Blah blah blah blah. You can accept or deny. But it is the true blah blah blah. Ha! You are all mindless slaves to the blah blah blah and the blah balh blah the blah has set into motion over 300 hundred years ago. Bow down. (done in charlie brown's teacher's droning voice. Some may understand)

canglong

10-20-2005, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by KPM
---Do those Opera documents mention both the Red Boats and Wing Chun by name? Because the quote you provided does not. It would be very interesting and very supportive if the Opera documents independent of anything to do with Wing Chun....talked about both Cheung Ng and Wing Chun (by name) together. But I haven't seen that. That's why I asked the original question of you.
Hey Keith,
To best answer your question it might be better if you use all the pieces of information together instead of seperately.

Cheung Ng, also known as Tan-Sau Ng, not only excelled in martial arts, but actually taught the techniques himself. He was called 'Tan-Sau Ng' because of his 'tan sau……..peerless throughout the martial arts world'.
Comparing the legend of Yim Wing Chun with the information on Tan-Sau Ng, I consider the latter more acceptable in our examination of Wing Chun's origins.
The reasons are as follows:
1) Cheung Ng brought his skills in Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the great fire of Siu Lam during the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.
2) Tan Sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun.
Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. He actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.
3) Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.
4) Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, 'Painted Face Kam', Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).
Then as we now know later Leung Jan and his disciples would go on to become known for their Wing Chun skill no longer referring to those skills as Hung Suen.

KPM

10-20-2005, 09:57 AM

KPM

10-20-2005, 10:06 AM

Hey Tony!

To best answer your question it might be better if you use all the pieces of information together instead of seperately.

---Maybe. But that still doesn't answer the question. You seemed to be saying that Cheung Ng is mentioned in association with both the Red Boats and Wing Chun within the Opera documents. That doesn't seem at all clear to me. The quotes you have provided from those documents do not seem to mention either the Red Boats or Wing Chun. It still seems likely to me that Cheung Ng made valuable contributions to the chinese opera, was a noted martial artist, and was associated with Shaolin. The only Wing Chun connection I see is the nickname "Tan Sau Ng", and I'm not convinced that it is a term exclusive to Wing Chun. Hendrik seemed to be saying that it isn't. But regardless of all that, Cheung Ng is one of the few people from the "legendary" period of Wing Chun's history that is actually documented historically. How much he had to do with Wing Chun as we know it is the question.

Then as we now know later Leung Jan and his disciples would go on to become known for their Wing Chun skill no longer referring to those skills as Hung Suen.

---Here you seem to be inferring that Wing Chun was not known by that name prior to Leung Jan's generation. How do you support that idea?

Keith

canglong

10-20-2005, 10:46 AM

originally posted by KPM
You seemed to be saying that Cheung Ng is mentioned in association with both the Red Boats and Wing Chun within the Opera documents.

Eventually, Zhang took on a number of Red Junk performers as disciples, and founded the Qianghua Huiguan (King Fa Wui Goon, Precious Jade Flower Union) Hall, in some accounts referred to as the Honghua Huiguan (Hung Fa Wui Goon, Red Flower Union), at Dajiwei (Dai Gei Mei), where he taught the traditional Jianghu Shiba Ben (Gong Wu Sup Baat Bun, Eighteen Plays of River & Lake). Later generations would regard him as the "great teacher" and zu shi (jo si, founder) of the modern Cantonese opera.

After settling down in Fat Shan, he passed on his knowledge in traditional opera and martial arts to the Hung Suyen (Red Boat) followers, and established the Hung Fa Wui Koon in Fat Shan.
4) Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, 'Painted Face Kam', Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).
Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen (Honghua Yi Yongchunquan, Red Flower Righteous), previously referred to as Hung Suen (Red Boat) Wing Chun Kuen,Keith,
Yes we already established that Hung Suen is synonymous with red boat martial arts and secondly that Cheung Ng was skilled in Shaolin arts and that his nickname even if tan sau is not unique to wing chun when Master Ng is then connected to Leung Jan the inference becomes more and more heavily weighted.

The inference this information would suggest prior to Leung Jan is that Wing Chun being a secretive art to combat the Qing was known by some not known at all by others then known to some as Wing Chun and yet also known to others as Hung Suen. Leung Jan is when it would appear the need for secrecy ceased to exist.

Jim Roselando

10-20-2005, 01:11 PM

Tony,

I am not sure why Leung Jan keeps coming up recently but lets try to analzy with an open mind!

Read what you are writing:

Then as we now know later Leung Jan and his disciples would go on to become known for their Wing Chun skill no longer referring to those skills as Hung Suen.

As We Now Know?

Facts:

Lineages from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam all call their art Wing Chun!

Wong Wah Bo taught a few people (Leung and Fok from Yuen KS lineage)! Both lineages were passed down over the years and had nothing to do with each other but both also call their art Wing Chun.

Another seperate lineage passed down from Yik Kam, also had no contact with other lineages, call their art Wing Chun.

Maybe we can put this with the new Chan Wah against Wong Fei story that seems to also have evolved to; As We Now Know! Even tho that story is also documented!

;)

The inference this information would suggest prior to Leung Jan is that Wing Chun being a secretive art to combat the Qing

Cool Info! Lets look at it with an open mind:

How many Wing Chunners were there and how many people did they pass their art to? Lets look:

Wong Wah Bo-Leung Jan & Fok Bo Cheun (1 opera guy and two students)

Leung Yee Tai-Leung Jan (1 opera guy and 1 student)

Yik Kam-Cho ? (1 opera guy and 1 student)

Does this sound like an army to fight the Ching?

Now! Do the same with the Weng people from the Red Boats and Lee Man Mao! Add them up to see how many!!!

Maybe you are confusing the Wing Chun guys with the Weng guys that were also on the Junks lead by Lee Man Mao! I am sure they were all friends and helped each other but Wing and Weng are different arts. Actually! I believe Hendrik mentioned that the only possible reason they associated would probally be because they both had Crane roots otherwise the two groups would have nothing to do with each other! They were very Tribal! There is much written about Lee Man Mao leading the uprising and it is known that he was a Weng Crane guy! Seems to me the stories have been meshed or crossed.

Things that make you go hmmm!

:confused:

Hendrik

10-20-2005, 02:12 PM

IMHO, Some data points I like to share

1,
Red Boat is a general term.

I have read some documents from Yik Kam and Cho Shun. They refer thier art as Ban Chung Wing Chun Kuen. Ban means the Opera house. Chung means within.

so, Ban Chung Wing Chun means the Wing Chun from Within the Opera house.

2,
From different documents passed down from Yik Kam. I accidentally found that even within the Opera House, there are Drum group from out of Canton who join in to the opera. These people even bring thier Rx for dit da... IT is from the Dit Da document passed down from Yik Kam or Ban Chung Yerng Dan Kam or the main character Kam fro the opera house medicine note which I found this.

So, in the opera house, it is non ****genous and within the whole red boat there are even more complicated. IMHHHHO

3,
The statement -- "Tan Sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun" needs to be clearify. Otherwise, it doesnt mean anything. What is so unique ?

Tan Sau ALONE cannot be the magic.

The reason is that the Chinese believe in Ying Yang or IChing. In Iching, it was said, the singer Ying or the Yang alone will not growth. it is not complete to have just Ying or Yang alone. similar to we said if there is + polarity then it has to have - polarity.

Thus, In WCK, we have Tan sau as Yang and Fook Sau as Yin. These hands form a complete Yin Yang couple as in IChing philosophy.

As the Kuen Kuit of Miu Shun's SLT passed down by Yik Kam said:

Both hands raising ( from Netural) spliting into to Yin and Yang.

Tan Fook hiding within the Silence.

Same thing, Bong and Kei are another couple. Bong is horizontal, Kei is vertical.

Eventhought it was not spil out.
In the general modern Chi Sau platform today used by Ip Man or Yks lineage, There are complete 2 couples. The tan, fook, bong, and Kei. It is a complete coupling.
From the Chi Sau platform above we know even our modern platform is not just Tan Bong Fook -- the three elements.

Thus, WCK is not Just Tan Bong Fook the three elements. There are four elements --- Tan Fook Bong Kei. IMHO,

from the hidden of the 4th points Kie we can see who's art is Localization Evolution. IMHHO. and for those who believe in WCK is from Shao Lin, they need to address all these "hidden" points issues such as Yin/Yang, Kei.....etc otherwise, one can make claim and believe the claim. However, more depth is needed.

So, where can we trace the Tan instead of the White Crane water shape hand turn Karate side outer block or ...ect, Emei 12 zhuang using the sensitivity of sticking.... as recorded in the 12 zhuang's kuen kuit various way of sticking.....and applications.

We need to speak with specific evidences. IMHO

Just some thoughts.

Firehawk4

10-20-2005, 08:40 PM

Who is this Dong Chan ? And what was his art like ?

KPM

10-21-2005, 02:10 AM

Hey Tony!

Yes we already established that Hung Suen is synonymous with red boat martial arts

---Yes! You are right! From what you posted, the Opera documents do connect Cheung Ng to the Red Boats. I concede that point. But Wing Chun is still not mentioned.

his nickname even if tan sau is not unique to wing chun when Master Ng is then connected to Leung Jan the inference becomes more and more heavily weighted.

---That point I am not so sure about. There were evidently several martial arts practiced amongst the Red Boat Opera troupes. Lee Man Mau was a Crane practicioner and also associated with the Red Boats. Should he also be connected to Leung Jan by inference? Are we sure that "tan sau" is not also a term in the older Crane method?

The inference this information would suggest prior to Leung Jan is that Wing Chun being a secretive art to combat the Qing was known by some not known at all by others then known to some as Wing Chun and yet also known to others as Hung Suen.

---But we have not established that the term "Hung Suen" referred specifically to Wing Chun. Again, several martial arts were practiced by the Red Boat troupes. Perhaps "Hung Suen" was used only as a general term. It could have just as easily applied to the "Weng" crane of Lee Man Mau as Jim has pointed out, as it could to Wing Chun. There are just too many unknowns. But I agree that Cheung Ng and his connection to the Red Boats has to be taken seriously.

Keith

Jim Roselando

10-21-2005, 07:00 AM

Hello guys,

Kieth wrote:

But I agree that Cheung Ng and his connection to the Red Boats has to be taken seriously.

Yes! He was recorded in Opera history so lets ask those who connect to him to be specific about what martial art did Cheung Ng do and what is the DNA of that art?

Hendrik wrote:

So, where can we trace the Tan instead of the White Crane water shape hand turn Karate side outer block or ...ect, Emei 12 zhuang using the sensitivity of sticking.... as recorded in the 12 zhuang's kuen kuit various way of sticking.....and applications.

We need to speak with specific evidences. IMHO

This is where things get interesting or more fun to analyz! If White Crane is the root and the Okinawan off-shoots went down the hard road with the outer spread hand. What type of DNA needs to be fused with White Crane to form the Soft/Sensing/Sticking Tan Sao of WCK?

What is the DNA of Cheung Ng's Martial Art? What art did Cheung Ng practice and or what were the art or arts fused to create Wing Chun Kuen according to Cheung Ng decendants Tony?

Jim Roselando

10-21-2005, 07:07 AM

Hello guys,

Kieth wrote:

But I agree that Cheung Ng and his connection to the Red Boats has to be taken seriously.

Yes! He was recorded in Opera history so lets ask those who connect to him to be specific about what martial art did Cheung Ng do and what is the DNA of that art?

Hendrik wrote:

So, where can we trace the Tan instead of the White Crane water shape hand turn Karate side outer block or ...ect, Emei 12 zhuang using the sensitivity of sticking.... as recorded in the 12 zhuang's kuen kuit various way of sticking.....and applications.

We need to speak with specific evidences. IMHO

This is where things get interesting or more fun to analyz! If White Crane is the root and the Okinawan off-shoots and went down the hard road with the outer spread hand. What type of DNA needs to be fused with White Crane to form the Soft/Sensing/Sticking Tan Sao of WCK?

What is the DNA of Cheung Ng's Martial Art? What art did Cheung Ng practice and or what were the art or arts fused to create Wing Chun Kuen according to Cheung Ng decendants Tony?

canglong

10-21-2005, 10:06 AM

originally posted by Jim R
Lineages from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam all call their art Wing Chun! Jim,
Since Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai both show up on the more familiar Wing Chun lineage family trees isn't that evidence that quite possibly Yik Kam's Wing Chun could be exactly as hendrik states it is so that is why Yik Kam's Wing Chun is different than Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai lineages because you even say as much yourself when you say, "Another seperate lineage passed down from Yik Kam, also had no contact with other lineages, call their art Wing Chun."
originally posted by Jim R.
Maybe you are confusing the Wing Chun guys with the Weng guys that were also on the Junks lead by Lee Man Mao! I am sure they were all friends and helped each other but Wing and Weng are different arts. Actually! I believe Hendrik mentioned that the only possible reason they associated would probally be because they both had Crane roots otherwise the two groups would have nothing to do with each other! They were very Tribal! There is much written about Lee Man Mao leading the uprising and it is known that he was a Weng Crane guy! Seems to me the stories have been meshed or crossed. Jim,
It is quite certain that you are confused because you are using hendrik as your source! If you follow the time line of this discussion maybe then you will see where hendrik has lead you astray. First you can not disprove that Weng and Wing share no association saying that hendrik says so doesn't fit into this discussion, you argue for hung suen being a melting pot of martial arts one second and then suggest some people didn't even want to talk to one another let alone share information the next again based on something you heard from hendrik. Lastly if you can factualy use Lee Man Mao to prove or disprove anything that has been discussed to this point be my guest if not then again it would appear that you are off topic.
originally posted by Jim R.
How many Wing Chunners were there and how many people did they pass their art to? Lets look:
Here is a better question Jim how many people of Han descent were ready to join forces from 1644 -1911 to overthrow the ruling government of that time period.

Hey Keith,

originally posted by KPM
---That point I am not so sure about. There were evidently several martial arts practiced amongst the Red Boat Opera troupes. Lee Man Mau was a Crane practicioner and also associated with the Red Boats. Should he also be connected to Leung Jan by inference? Are we sure that "tan sau" is not also a term in the older Crane method?"There were evidently several martial arts practiced amongst the Red Boat Opera troupes. " Correct, which makes it all the more significant that Cheung Ng and Leng Jan show up on the same lineage chart and Leung Jan was known for his Wing Chun skill not his Crane this is not inference to all to some people like Yip Chun and Pan Nam the things we are discussing are factual evidence.

http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/pan-tree.jpg

originally posted by KPM
---But we have not established that the term "Hung Suen" referred specifically to Wing Chun. Again, several martial arts were practiced by the Red Boat troupes. Perhaps "Hung Suen" was used only as a general term. It could have just as easily applied to the "Weng" crane of Lee Man Mau as Jim has pointed out, as it could to Wing Chun. There are just too many unknowns. But I agree that Cheung Ng and his connection to the Red Boats has to be taken seriously.
Keith,
The point simply is this there is evidence to show not only was Wing Chun one of the the Hung Suen arts that along with that there is substantial evidence enough to lend credence to Yip Chun's hypothesis that Cheung Ng is a more likely source of origin for Wing Chun than Ng Mui.

canglong

10-21-2005, 10:15 AM

originally posted by Jim R.
Yes! He was recorded in Opera history so lets ask those who connect to him to be specific about what martial art did Cheung Ng do and what is the DNA of that art?

Jim,
The DNA is simple it's called SNT/CK/BJ as passed down from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai and there is no fusing going on no guess work to apply with possible hypothesis and various theory nor conjecture on the part of the practitioner. Notice the only time that is needed is when yep you guessed it Yik Kam comes into the picture ever wonder why that is.

Hendrik

10-21-2005, 10:57 AM

Since Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai both show up on the more familiar Wing Chun lineage family trees isn't that evidence that quite possibly Yik Kam's Wing Chun could be exactly as hendrik states it is so that is why Yik Kam's Wing Chun is different than Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai lineages......-------

Everything is possible, however,

1, what is "More familiar" lineage family trees got to do with DNA?

2, Read Sung Num's article and why is Both Yik Kam and YKS share the creation ancestor Miu Shun?

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/index.html

Here is a better question Jim how many people of Han descent were ready to join forces from 1644 -1911 to overthrow the ruling government of that time period. ------

1,

Let see what happen about Han.

1644, General Wu san-Kui of Ming, refuse to help the Last Ming Emperor who was trapped in the BeiJing by the Uprising of Ming citizen. Wu negotiate with Qing to open the Gate to let Qing enter into China with no resistance with his own benifit in the first priority.

The Last emperor commited suicied in Bejing. IT is not Qing defeated Ming, it is the MIng sold out Ming.

2, Dong Chan, a shao lin Monk who return to the lay life, after unsuccesfull in uprising, went to Taiwan, however the Taiwan leader of Anti Qing didnt listern to him..

3, The Yee Ho rebelion which cause the western armies defeated Qing. Is an organization ANTI Westerners not ANTI Qing. But HELP QING.

4, One of the reasons of The failure of Tai Ping to over thrown Qing is that: Tai Ping due to its cult religion believe doesnt join force closely with the Small knife group in Shang Hai.

5, The uprising Lee Man Mao involved in is not ANTI Qing and RETURN to Ming. But a NEW country/state was born.

6, the Revolution of Sun Yat Sen is about Sun Admire the West and Sun also at the begining went to see Lee Hung-Chang ( Qing's big short official) to talk about Evolve or making modernized the Qing....etc. Lee didnt take Sun's proposal.

7, even in the legend of the Burning of Shao Lin, it was the Han which outsold the Han due to jealousy eventhought both the monks and the official WORK for the Qing.

8, The Famous qoutation in Sun Yat Sen Era describe it great. " Chinese is a plate of scatering sand."

There certainly are people who is loyar and great which is doing excellent job for the people and the country of China. There certainly are ordinary people who did extra-ordinary things such as the prostitute of Beijing saving Beijing's people pursuaid the commandor of western army to not doing mass destruction or killing....ect. These are heros behind the scene. Who I respect from heart compare with the Kill Kill Bang Bang, Anti, uprising..... such as Wu Shan Kui to Boxer Rebelion which is control by the western palace empress of Qing, for what? for personal's agenda and put others in fire.

Yik Kam and Cho Sun have indeed have the secret Stanza of thier uprising passed down to today. It maches the 1850s data points, such as those in Dian Chun Dang of Shang Hai. However, CLF is the big one in 1850. Just ask the question where does the red boat train thier fighters? where CLF has training place.

Speaking about the Shao Lin connection theory, there is another data point. Why dont the Shao Lin connection theorician Shows thier Stanza of 1850. That is the DNA to show which sect or line of activity the particular sect belongs too.

We know today by this stanza that Yik Kam and Cho Sun belongs to the Male Actor playing Femal role sect of Red boat Opera house. We also Know that they are supporting the Tai Ping. And all of this evident is out there practice within the Cho family sets for hundred of years before even I was born.

IMHO, we need to speak with specific evidents instead of because I live in cupertino, I am relate to Apple Computer type of linking.

Just some thoughts.

Disclamer: the above post is only expressing ONE type of perspective. it doesnt mean the TRUTH. and Certianly it is not the ONLY truth. it's intend is to describe there are different DNA's exist today and to do research. One needs to get into very specific verification.

Hendrik

10-21-2005, 11:08 AM

Jim,
The DNA is simple it's called SNT/CK/BJ as passed down from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai and there is no fusing going on no guess work to apply with possible hypothesis and various theory nor conjecture on the part of the practitioner.

Notice the only time that is needed is when yep you guessed it Yik Kam comes into the picture ever wonder why that is.

IMHO

1,

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/index.html

There is No Cheung Ng but Miu Shun above.

2, SNT/CK/BJ cannot be the DNA

Those are just label which can be anything.

It is SLT if memory serve for YKS similar to Yik Kam not SNT.

What is the Essense of WCK? and where is the Essence from? That is the question. See, doing sets and sets without Knowing the essence is similar to knowing the name of the person but never know who the person really is.

What do one cultivate? what kind of KUNG or expertise one cultivate? that is about DNA.

I am signing off from this disccussion now. Thanks for the discussion. Good luck. and IMHO, dont get too serious. It is just a discussion. Anything one believe which empower and free oneself is a agood Origin where one can rest in peace. The rest we all think different. so, we all can have different perspective but still living in peace and harmory. That is what I believe more important than who is right.

Now, Peace, and Harmony

canglong

10-21-2005, 12:20 PM

originally posted by hendrik
2, Read Sung Num's article and why is Both Yik Kam and YKS share the creation ancestor Miu Shun
Because it's part of the legend hence it shows up in the legend portion of the family tree and the legends page of the family history.

Jim Roselando

10-21-2005, 12:45 PM

Tony,

Jim,
The DNA is simple it's called SNT/CK/BJ as passed down from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai and there is no fusing going on no guess work to apply with possible hypothesis and various theory nor conjecture on the part of the practitioner.

Thats not DNA but since you like to bring that up from time to time perhaps I can remind you of a few things:

According to Yik Kam lineage there was originally one set (SLT)

According to YKS lineage there was originally one set (SLT) that was later broken to 3

According to LJ Ku Lo lineage there was originally one set (SLT) that was later broken to 3

All three lineages can be traced back and state the same thing so I tend to go with the more likely but you never know!

Notice the only time that is needed is when yep you guessed it Yik Kam comes into the picture ever wonder why that is.

The only time that comes into play is when we want to discuss the components of our art or any art! The Engine not the names! ;)

Jim,
Since Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai both show up on the more familiar Wing Chun lineage family trees isn't that evidence that quite possibly Yik Kam's Wing Chun could be exactly as hendrik states it is so that is why Yik Kam's Wing Chun is different than Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai lineages because you even say as much yourself when you say, "Another seperate lineage passed down from Yik Kam, also had no contact with other lineages, call their art Wing Chun."

Since my words are getting twisted a bit, I'll see if I can help you understand it better:

Leung Jan and Yik Kam have not crossed paths over the years. Why or how would it be possible for Leung Jan's Ku Lo teaching to be sooooooooo remarkably similar to Yik Kam's in skills, terms, etc. etc. if Yik Kam's was its own unique creation???

It is quite certain that you are confused because you are using hendrik as your source! If you follow the time line of this discussion maybe then you will see where hendrik has lead you astray. First you can not disprove that Weng and Wing share no association saying that hendrik says so doesn't fit into this discussion, you argue for hung suen being a melting pot of martial arts one second and then suggest some people didn't even want to talk to one another let alone share information the next again based on something you heard from hendrik.

Tony! Go back and read slower. :p

Lastly if you can factualy use Lee Man Mao to prove or disprove anything that has been discussed to this point be my guest if not then again it would appear that you are off topic.

Who lead the uprising? The white crane guys or the 2 or 3 wing guys? Lee Man Mao is well known and documented. He was a Crane guy but you never know!

Here is a better question Jim how many people of Han descent were ready to join forces from 1644 -1911 to overthrow the ruling government of that time period.

Seems like Hendrik already posted for this question? Look forward to your reply to that.

Lastly:

Correct, which makes it all the more significant that Cheung Ng and Leng Jan show up on the same lineage chart and Leung Jan was known for his Wing Chun skill not his Crane this is not inference to all to some people like Yip Chun and Pan Nam the things we are discussing are factual evidence.

Would you like to discuss the body and art of Leung Jan's teaching and compare it to Cheung Ng's body anr art?

BTW: Leung Jan told his disciples his art was Wing Chun derived from Snake and Crane.

Peace,

canglong

10-21-2005, 12:57 PM

originally posted by Jim R.
Lineages from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai and Yik Kam all call their art Wing Chun!This is a quote of what you said earlier. So its 2 people doing SNT/CK/BJ and one person doing 1 long SLT. The question to you was and is since we find a ratio of 2:1 ...
Jim,
Since Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai both show up on the more familiar Wing Chun lineage family trees isn't that evidence that quite possibly Yik Kam's Wing Chun could be exactly as hendrik states it is so that is why Yik Kam's Wing Chun is different than Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai lineages because you even say as much yourself when you say, "Another seperate lineage passed down from Yik Kam, also had no contact with other lineages, call their art Wing Chun."

canglong

10-21-2005, 01:02 PM

originally posted by Jim R.
Would you like to discuss the body and art of Leung Jan's teaching and compare it to Cheung Ng's body anr art?
Does this mean you acknowledge Cheung Ng's art as Wing Chun, go right ahead.

Jim Roselando

10-21-2005, 01:27 PM

T,

This is a quote of what you said earlier. So its 2 people doing SNT/CK/BJ and one person doing 1 long SLT. The question to you was and is since we find a ratio of 2:1 ...
Jim,
Since Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai both show up on the more familiar Wing Chun lineage family trees isn't that evidence that quite possibly Yik Kam's Wing Chun could be exactly as hendrik states it is so that is why Yik Kam's Wing Chun is different than Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai lineages because you even say as much yourself when you say, "Another seperate lineage passed down from Yik Kam, also had no contact with other lineages, call their art Wing Chun."

Tunnel vision amigo! U know what I am saying no matter how many ways you twist it! :eek:

"""Would you like to discuss the body and art of Leung Jan's teaching and compare it to Cheung Ng's body and art?"""

Does this mean you acknowledge Cheung Ng's art as Wing Chun, go right ahead.

Nope! Thats not what I mean! Read again or slower. :eek:

canglong

10-21-2005, 01:47 PM

Nope! Thats not what I mean! Read again or slowerJim,
Of the previous post and dicussion which part of the history of Cheung Ng are you debating against then. Keith's post are uniform in their approach when we disagree the discussion tends to focus on the topic of disageement not really sure what it is you are trying to establish at this point.
"""Would you like to discuss the body and art of Leung Jan's teaching and compare it to Cheung Ng's body and art?"""
You need to establish the art first which is where the discussion was heading if you were to re-read from the beginning.

canglong

10-21-2005, 02:01 PM

originally posted by hendrik
2, SNT/CK/BJ cannot be the DNA
That is equivalent to saying only my saliva can be used as DNA but my blood can't, why because your theory would die a quick death then wouldn't it. You gentlemen are the ones that wanted to use the term so USE IT CORRECTLY.
SNT/CK/BJ can be submited as DNA evidence just like an other portion of any other art, style or science of wing chun in this particular case.

schwarzdragon

10-21-2005, 07:21 PM

Whether or not you believe my source is up to you. We're all intelligent beings able to discern our own belief systems. I studied under Master John Clayton in Grandmaster Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun. He believed that Wing Chun came from the Shaolin. I asked my wife's uncle about this when I trained under him in Indonesia last summer. He doesn't speak any English, so I had to have my wife or another family member translate during training. I only understood the Cantonese words that relate to Wing Chun. My Indonesian is limited. Anyway, Master Jiang studied the 5 animal systems in Fukien for 26 years. His Shaolin master also taught him a version of Ving Tsun that is similar to that of Grandmaster Cheung in many ways. Please note that he didn't recognize many of my forms. He is recognized as a gung fu master in most of Asia as he gives seminars in many countries. At one point of my training, Master Jiang showed me how Wing Chun was similar to the 5 animal systems from which it was derived. Also, he called the wooden dummy form sets "11 different Buddha Palm" forms. He actually demonstrated forms that he had learned as a child in the Shaolin monestery from age 4 to 30. He has had gung fu schools in China and Indonesia since he left the Shaolin to get married. Ironically, he now has 9 children. I believe that his lifelong knowledge of gung fu validates many of the beliefs that I already held, that Wing Chun came from the Shaolin.

KPM

10-22-2005, 03:00 AM

Hey Tony!

this is not inference to all to some people like Yip Chun and Pan Nam the things we are discussing are factual evidence.

---Here lies the problem in my mind. Call me a skeptic, but I do try and keep an open mind to things. But the sole source for Cheung Ng seems to be those opera documents, and they do not specifically mention Wing Chun. Pan Nam put Cheung Ng in his lineage chart, but Pan Nam's Wing Chun was a "blended" style from several different sources....so any lineage chart he comes up with is suspect. If I remember correctly, when those stories and lineages from Pan Nam were originally published (by Eddie Chong?) there were some serious timeline problems with the dates.....some people could not have possibly studied with others on the lineage because there were from different times. But later....these charts and stories seemed to change to fix that. This also makes Pan Nam's lineage chart a bit suspect I think. Yip Chun seems to back up Pan Nam's story, but is seems very likely that they both came in contact with the same Opera documents....which again do not mention Wing Chun specifically. It seems that Yip Chun was willing to take Pan Nam's word for it. Later on, when HFY makes its debut, Cheung Ng is in its lineage chart. But this was well after Pan Nam and Yip Chun first wrote about Cheung Ng, and there is nothing available to support HFY's story....no fellow students from Garret Gee's generation....no Si Hing's of Garret Gee....no instructor of Garret Gee. Surely you can see how a skeptical mind would consider this suspect as well? Its like HFY just showed up....with nothing to substantiate the background and history that it contained.

The point simply is this there is evidence to show not only was Wing Chun one of the the Hung Suen arts that along with that there is substantial evidence enough to lend credence to Yip Chun's hypothesis that Cheung Ng is a more likely source of origin for Wing Chun than Ng Mui.

---I think there is good evidence that Cheung Ng played a substantial role in the history of the Red Boats. And yes, Wing Chun was one of the Red Boat martial arts....amongst others. And yes....we have to give credence to the idea or hypothesis that Cheung Ng was therefore connected to Wing Chun. But it seems a big jump to make him the key figure in a whole theory about Wing Chun being the culmination and final evolution of everthing Shaolin. We don't really know what martial art he was doing or teaching. We don't really know the extent of his involvement in Shaolin.

The DNA is simple it's called SNT/CK/BJ as passed down from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai and there is no fusing going on no guess work to apply with possible hypothesis and various theory nor conjecture on the part of the practitioner.

---No. That's the wrong use of the idea of martial art "DNA." DNA must come from an existing artifact. The idea of the "DNA" behind a form means it must exist now. Therefore we can compare the "DNA" behind the forms in the YKS, YM, Pin Sun and Yik Kam methods because those forms exist today. We can look at what they share and what they don't. By looking at the common "DNA" that they share, we get a better picture of what the art that contributed this shared "DNA" might have looked like. You cannot apply the same analysis to "SNT/CK/BJ as passed from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo" because it does not exist today. We don't know what Cheung Ng practiced. What we do know about what Wong Wah Bo practiced comes from analyzing the lineages that come from him and comparing them, as noted above. This is the sort of thing that I have been talking about from the beginning. To me, Wing Chun has far more in common with Fukien White Crane when you look at the "DNA" evidence...body mechanics/structure, theories/principles, various techniques...than it does with Shaolin martial arts.

Keith

canglong

10-22-2005, 07:06 AM

originally posted by KPM
---Here lies the problem in my mind. Call me a skeptic, but I do try and keep an open mind to things. But the sole source for Cheung Ng seems to be those opera documents, and they do not specifically mention Wing Chun.Pardon me if your skeptisim seems bias and one sided. You say But the sole source to make it sound insignificant yet you haven't even seen the documents yet you can understand their importance if you had and what other officially recorded documents do you have to compare them with had you been lucky enough to view these and then come to your own conclusions of this White Crane theory. A true skeptic believes everything then sets out to disprove everything and the things he disproves he no longer believes and the things he can't disprove he has no choice but to accept you on the other hand don't appear to be a true skeptic. For example you said...
originally posted by KPM
So a good question for those familiar with other styles is this......is the term "Tan Sau" unique to exclusive to Wing Chun? to which I replied...
quoting Yip Chun
2) Tan Sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun and then you replied...
The only Wing Chun connection I see is the nickname "Tan Sau Ng", and I'm not convinced that it is a term exclusive to Wing Chun. Hendrik seemed to be saying that it isn't. But...Your substitute to practicing the art for oneself, reading books magazines or essays, researching subjects on the internet or interviewing teachers, classmates, or noted authorities is to just defer to hendrik. As a skeptic you should either be able to difinetively disprove Yip Chun so we can move on or accept that his background provides him ample ability to make such an argument other open minded people who don't know you me hendrik or this history reading this deserve that much NOT well hendrik says so because it is hendrik which is the source of your own theory how convient is that.

originally posted by KPM
---No. That's the wrong use of the idea of martial art "DNA." DNA must come from an existing artifact. The idea of the "DNA" behind a form means it must exist now. Therefore we can compare the "DNA" behind the forms in the YKS, YM, Pin Sun and Yik Kam methods because those forms exist today. We can look at what they share and what they don't. By looking at the common "DNA" that they share, we get a better picture of what the art that contributed this shared "DNA" might have looked like. You cannot apply the same analysis to "SNT/CK/BJ as passed from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo" because it does not exist today. We don't know what Cheung Ng practiced. What we do know about what Wong Wah Bo practiced comes from analyzing the lineages that come from him and comparing them, as noted above. This is the sort of thing that I have been talking about from the beginning. To me, Wing Chun has far more in common with Fukien White Crane when you look at the "DNA" evidence...body mechanics/structure, theories/principles, various techniques...than it does with Shaolin martial arts.
Your definition of DNA sounds like a hendrikism.
Therefore we can compare the "DNA" behind the formsAnd yet again you and hendrik are saying two seperate things either the forms can be used or they can't.

The material inside the nucleus of cells that carries genetic information. The scientific name for DNA is deoxyribonucleic acid.
ehrweb.aaas.org/ehr/books/glossary.html

The double-stranded, helical molecular chain found within the nucleus of each cell. DNA carries the genetic information that encodes proteins and enables cell to reproduce and perform their functions.
www.sabin.org/vaccine_science_GlossaryB_D.htm

Jim Roselando

10-22-2005, 10:50 AM

Tony,

You need to establish the art first which is where the discussion was heading if you were to re-read from the beginning.

Sure! Thats what you need DNA for right? If you say its military and monk blend then go ahead and tell us which military and which shaolin monk it was that was blended to create Cheung Ng's martial art. Then, we can start talking. ;)

Seems that on this side of the coin there is the possibility that it could be Crane and Snake. We know there are some possibles for this theory and that is the theory of almost all the known lineages. Why not list yours for the military monk combo?

Not only Yik Kam & Yuen Kay San preserve the above theory. Chan Wah Shun lineages also do:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12

Just about most known lineages. I would be curious to know what is the written history from the Chan family! That way, you could comapre it to Chan's other pupils (and the othe lineages) to come up with the more likely story from his years teaching.

So, we need to ask, whats the DNA of the military/monk?

SNT/CK/BJ can be submited as DNA evidence just like an other portion of any other art, style or science of wing chun in this particular case.

Ok Tony! :D Lets take a look at what you assume is evidence from Leung Jan's teachers:

Leung Jan sifu was first a student of Wong Wah Bo. It was from Wong Wah Bo that Leung Jan learned the SLT, CK & BJ.

Leung Jan sifu was then sent by Wong Wah Bo to study with the female role actor Leung Yee Tai (for additional training). It is said in Koo Lo tradition that this is where Leung Jan sifu learned the so-called Womans style Wing Chun. Why the womans style? :eek:

Since Wong Wah Bo taught both Leung Jan and Fok Bo Cheun and both of their decendants passed on SLT, CK & BJ it is more likely to believe that he was the source of that teaching. If Yik Kam and Leung Yee Tai both played female roles in the opera:

Hendrik also mentions:

We know today by this stanza that Yik Kam and Cho Sun belongs to the Male Actor playing "Female" role sect of Red boat Opera house.

Since neither one of these two Female role actors in the troup did CK & BJ it is more likely "especially since" even all the known lineages of their classmate (wong wah bo) state SLT/CK/BJ was once just SLT, then I think that is a possible more likely for me but you never know?

With regards to Pan Nam sifu we must think about a couple of things. You said:

As a skeptic you should either be able to difinetively disprove Yip Chun so we can move on

Pan Nam's Wing Chun training came from Chiu Chow. Chiu Chow learned from Chan Yiu Min. Pan Nam later studied under Lai Yip Chi. Lai Yi Chi first studies Wing Chun under Lui Yiu Chai but later studied "Weng" Chun under Lok Lan Koon who was Dai Fa Min Kam's pupil.

Pan Nam historical info. is mainly from the second source and not Wing Chun. Dai Fa Min Kam was a "Weng" Chunner! His decendants would be the Fung Siu Ching looking Kung Fu with Som Bai Fut base and not Siu Lin Tau base! I think this could be a possible reason for the crossed or meshed stories. It would not support Cheung Ng having invlovlement in "Wing" but you never know?

Peace,

Jim Roselando

10-22-2005, 10:53 AM

Tony,

You need to establish the art first which is where the discussion was heading if you were to re-read from the beginning.

Sure! Thats what you need DNA for right? If you say its military and monk blend then go ahead and tell us which military and which shaolin monk it was that was blended to create Cheung Ng's martial art. Then, we can start talking. ;)

Seems that on this side of the coin there is the possibility that it could be Crane and Snake. We know there are some possibles for this theory and that is the theory of almost all the known lineages. Why not list yours for the military monk combo?

Not only Yik Kam & Yuen Kay San preserve the above theory. Chan Wah Shun lineages also do:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12

Just about most known lineages. I would be curious to know what is the written history from the Chan family!

So, we need to ask, whats the DNA of the military/monk?

SNT/CK/BJ can be submited as DNA evidence just like an other portion of any other art, style or science of wing chun in this particular case.

Ok Tony! :D Lets take a look at what you assume is evidence from Leung Jan's teachers:

Leung Jan sifu was first a student of Wong Wah Bo. It was from Wong Wah Bo that Leung Jan learned the SLT, CK & BJ.

Leung Jan sifu was then sent by Wong Wah Bo to study with the female role actor Leung Yee Tai (for additional training). It is said in Koo Lo tradition that this is where Leung Jan sifu learned the so-called Womans style Wing Chun. Why the womans style? :eek:

Since Wong Wah Bo taught both Leung Jan and Fok Bo Cheun and both of their decendants passed on SLT, CK & BJ it is more likely to believe that he was the source of that teaching. If Yik Kam and Leung Yee Tai both played female roles in the opera:

Hendrik also mentions:

We know today by this stanza that Yik Kam and Cho Sun belongs to the Male Actor playing "Female" role sect of Red boat Opera house.

Since neither one of these two Female role actors in the troup did CK & BJ it is more likely "especially since" even all the known lineages of their classmate (wong wah bo) state SLT/CK/BJ was once just SLT, then I think that is a possible more likely for me but you never know?

With regards to Pan Nam sifu we must think about a couple of things. You said:

As a skeptic you should either be able to difinetively disprove Yip Chun so we can move on

Pan Nam's Wing Chun training came from Chiu Chow. Chiu Chow learned from Chan Yiu Min. Pan Nam later studied under Lai Yip Chi. Lai Yi Chi first studies Wing Chun under Lui Yiu Chai but later studied "Weng" Chun under Lok Lan Koon who was Dai Fa Min Kam's pupil.

Pan Nam historical info. is mainly from the second source and not Wing Chun. Dai Fa Min Kam was a "Weng" Chunner! His decendants would be the Fung Siu Ching looking Kung Fu with Som Bai Fut base and not Siu Lin Tau base! I think this could be a possible reason for the crossed or meshed stories. It would not support Cheung Ng having invlovlement in "Wing" but you never know?

Peace,

Hendrik

10-22-2005, 05:57 PM

Thats what you need DNA for right? If you say its military and monk blend then go ahead and tell us which military and which shaolin monk it was that was blended to create Cheung Ng's martial art. Then, we can start talking. ;)

Peace,

Jim,

IMHO, military who later fleet to Taiwan and Shao Lin monk blend, doesnt seems to be likely.

We know the incident of Dong Chan of Shao Lin. The Taiwan leaders doesnt listern to Dong Chan. However, White Crane of Fujian kung fu master such as Bai Chieh were in Taiwan and return to Fujian after the Taiwan defense collapse.

So, IMHHHO, that give us a clue that Taiwan at 1650's are closed to White Crane of Fujian then Shao Lin.

And if one looks at my previous post about the Technology of Shao lIn within about 100 years before and after Ming collapse. We see that military's kung fu is strong. and why is shao lin needed?

As for the Army goes to Taiwan who started Tien Die Hui or Chin Tai San we know there are White Crane of Fujian based because thier alta in Taiwan still praying at Fang Chie-Niang. Not Dong Chan. So, even the Tien Die Hui , or the Chin San Dai organization of General Zhen Chen-Kung or Chen Ding Nang, as the evident we have today, there are White Crane based.

Thus, Looking at the historical possibility, and technological DNA.
The legend of Ng Mui the White Crane master indeed has good amount of merit.

Ofcause, we have to be open minded and if there is Shao Lin and Taiwan evidence turn out we want to accept it with joy that we found something excellent. because it is important piece of data. However, up to today, we see White Crane of Fujain, Taiwan military, Tian Die Hui, or Chin San Dai bound is strong.

Wing Chun Kuen is from the Southern so IMHO it is nature that the Southern /Taiwan military, tian die hui, chin san dai might influence Red boat WCK. However, we know today, these are White Crane of fujian related people.

Above is the data around 1650 to 1700 and beyond.

Then, in 1850's uprising, we know Lee Man Mau is White crane Weng Chun.

(Rene, I finally found this white crane guy who you are looking for)

There was another White crane weng Chun person Lim Cuin or (Lim wan Cing) who was given by Tai Ping as a King title. The title is Lieh Wang San Chian Sui, or the King of Fury 3000 years ( note: the emperor is 10000 years, and this king is rank 3000 years) he was a master of white crane of fujian and gathering thousands of followers to echo Taiping's uprising at De Hua County. His title was given by the heavenly king Hung Siew Chuan.

Since we know about CLF, we know about Lee Man-Mao lead the Red Turban uprising or the first Chinese Actors uprising in China's history, We know about Lim Cuin's uprising.

We can see what happen then. CLF and White Crane of Fujian are influencing Big.

From the above 2 rebels or uprising or Anti era
I wont say there is no influence from other parties. However, we need data similar to the one above. To pin point to the specific.

As for the Shao Lin Theory, I am happy if more data will be found. That is due to as i post in the Spline interpolation theory, any great data will help to interpolate what is likely happen for WCK.

Since about 100 years before Ming Collapse, to 1853 where Lee Man Mau and LIm Ciun uprising. There is almost empty data bank on shao lin involvement developing new arts which related to WCK. and the Data of Dong Chan from shao lin seems to point to different direction than Shao Lin is a "sole supporter " to Taiwan's Zhen Chen-Kung's anti Qing army or Tien Die Hui , but those Crane people were closer then Shao LIn monk such as Dong Chan. Thus, this fit as propose by historians that the So Called Shao Lin mention in Tien Tee Hui activity is not the Real Shao Lin.

It is only my personal view that I would like to SPLINE and Fuzzy logic all data from the view points of history, Shao Lin, technology dna...... input everything into the self-learning Artificial Inteligent machine and let it form a multi-dimentional Spline intepolation close form non gap continous model to see what might be possible happen.

And for the most recent Spline interpolation, eventhought the ancestors doesnt use real name. The Crane, Snake, Ng Mui, Mia Shun, emei, SLT, Emei , YJKYM, Tan Fook Bong Kie couple,... seems fit into one big piece and having smooth function for details.

Just some view.

Again, please take what I post as an opinion. Nothing is worthed for argueing. People can remember things differently. So different people can have thier own history. why not? Life is not black and white but with 7 major colors and millions of color is possible between the black and white.

peace and harmony

KPM

10-23-2005, 05:46 AM

Hey Tony!

Pardon me if your skeptisim seems bias and one sided.

---My apologies for being human. :) I admit that one theory of historical orgins seems much more plausible to me than another...so I tend to see things from that perspective. I think the same is true for you. But we are both making an effort.

You say But the sole source to make it sound insignificant yet you haven't even seen the documents

---This is true. I haven't seen the documents. That's why I asked you if they specifically mentioned Wing Chun, assuming that you had seen the documents. But you have supported the idea that they DON'T actually mention Wing Chun....just a more generic "Hung Suen" of which Wing Chun was only one part.

A true skeptic believes everything then sets out to disprove everything and the things he disproves he no longer believes and the things he can't disprove he has no choice but to accept you on the other hand don't appear to be a true skeptic.

---I never said I was perfect! :) I'm more along the lines of the second-class skeptic who believes nothing until he sees some good evidence or at least a plausible theory to back it up. In some circles this approach is known as the "scientific method" when applied to other topics. ;)

For example you said... to which I replied... and then you replied...Your substitute to practicing the art for oneself, reading books magazines or essays, researching subjects on the internet or interviewing teachers, classmates, or noted authorities is to just defer to hendrik.

---Where did I ever state or even imply that I don't practice the art myself...don't read what I can in books and magazines (I even noted that I have read "Mastering Kung Fu"), etc.? In fact, Hendrik and I don't talk much anymore. I am likely solidly on his list of "persona non grada" along with many others here in KFO. :p

As a skeptic you should either be able to difinetively disprove Yip Chun so we can move

---Well, like I said, I'm only a second-class skeptic. In the medical or scientific realms Yip Chun would be required to definetly PROVE his theory before it would be widely accepted and integrated.

Your definition of DNA sounds like a hendrikism. And yet again you and hendrik are saying two seperate things either the forms can be used or they can't.

---You obviously haven't been reading very closely. Where have Hendrik and I contradicted each other?

The material inside the nucleus of cells that carries genetic information. The scientific name for DNA is deoxyribonucleic acid.
ehrweb.aaas.org/ehr/books/glossary.html

The double-stranded, helical molecular chain found within the nucleus of each cell. DNA carries the genetic information that encodes proteins and enables cell to reproduce and perform their functions.
www.sabin.org/vaccine_science_GlossaryB_D.htm

---Thanks for the science lesson. I assure you that I am very familiar with those topics. :D Now....as I said before....DNA must come from an EXISTING artifact. You cannot run a DNA analysis on a ghost or a legend! Please go back and reread my previous post because I think you did not understand it. The point is that what Cheung Ng actually practiced or taught no longer exists, and therefore cannot be subjected to any "DNA" analysis. Fukien White Crane still exists.....Emei still exists.....the forms of lineages thru YKS, Pin Sun, Yik Kam, etc. still exist. These things can be taken apart to look at their "DNA"....theories, body mechanics, techniques, etc...and then compared to each other to look for common or shared components to get an idea of what a common ancestor might of looked like, or where "genertic bloodlines" may have converged or diverged.

Keith

duende

10-24-2005, 12:12 AM

The point is that what Cheung Ng actually practiced or taught no longer exists, and therefore cannot be subjected to any "DNA" analysis. Fukien White Crane still exists.....Emei still exists.....the forms of lineages thru YKS, Pin Sun, Yik Kam, etc. still exist. These things can be taken apart to look at their "DNA"....theories, body mechanics, techniques, etc...and then compared to each other to look for common or shared components to get an idea of what a common ancestor might of looked like, or where "genertic bloodlines" may have converged or diverged.

Keith

Keith,

How much experience do you truly have with these systems that you say "exist"??? Or for that matter, how much experience do you have with Hung Gar, Southern Preying Mantis, Five Animals, Chi Sim or Southern CMA's in general????

One can not talk about "genetic bloodlines" and Southern MMA's without understanding Kiu Sau and how it's "DNA trait" is found in these and other Southern CMA styles.

Once a cutural and philisophical understanding of Kiu Sau is found then understanding where Chi Sau comes from is not so far off.

On another note... it's very easy to lump WC lineages together via surface level knowledge and pics. But to understand the real DNA of system requires time and true learning.

canglong

10-24-2005, 02:29 AM

Jim,

Leung Jan sifu Wow Jim you better be careful here or people might misinterpret that as a sign of respect but we all know from your past statements that you could care less about titles or showing reverence to those behind the title.
originally posted by Jim R.
It is said in Koo Lo tradition that this is where Leung Jan sifu learned the so-called Womans style Wing Chun.At what point of these Koo Lo traditions does it state that Wing Chun comes from White Crane?
Since neither one of these two Female role actors in the troup did CK & BJ it is more likely "especially since" even all the known lineages of their classmate (wong wah bo) state SLT/CK/BJ was once just SLT, then I think that is a possible more likely for me but you never know?Jim, Your analysis of this seems to change dependent upon what best furthers what you choose to believe not what is most plausible. Example because of the different era or period of time you are willing to take a leap of faith you would not otherwise take. Let's say someone today told you they just finished learning Yip Man Wing Chun and you said ok show me the forms and that person preceeded to show you SNT and claimed there aren't any more forms than that. Now this person begins to teach but now this person also discovers their might be more to Yip Man Wing Chun than just the one form. When this person fills in the missing gaps through whatever method they might choose then obviously that "DNA" has just changed. When someone researching that person attempts to connect the "DNA" back to the correct parent they might through no fault of their own mistakenly believe the "DNA" of the younger subject being different than that of the parent is not only different but quite possibly even older.

Jim, you can continue to say it but that doesn't make it any more likely, plausible or possible just because you continue to reiterate that someone created something that someone else was already doing before the person you claim created it trying to possibly reconcile this in your own mind and having little success it would appear. This point has been established and you yourself even support it when you said.
Leung Jan sifu was first a student of Wong Wah Bo. It was from Wong Wah Bo that Leung Jan learned the SLT, CK & BJ.
Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. - Rene Ritchie

KPM

10-24-2005, 03:04 AM

Hi Duende! Joining the fray? :)

One can not talk about "genetic bloodlines" and Southern MMA's without understanding Kiu Sau and how it's "DNA trait" is found in these and other Southern CMA styles. Once a cutural and philisophical understanding of Kiu Sau is found then understanding where Chi Sau comes from is not so far off.

---Ah! It seems you have understood the DNA analogy better than Tony has. What you suggest could turn into a very good topic. How about starting a new thread discussing what Kiu Sau is, where it is found in other Southern CMA's, and how it is related to Chi Sau?

Tony: you wrote to Jim:
that person preceeded to show you SNT and claimed there aren't any more forms than that. Now this person begins to teach but now this person also discovers their might be more to Yip Man Wing Chun than just the one form.

---That is not what was meant. The idea was that the Wing Chun curriculum was either embodied in one long form referred to as SLT, or it was broken into three forms...SLT/CK/BJ. It was essentially the same material, just taught in a different way.....as 1 or as 3. I was even originally taught in the Fong lineage that when you had learned all three empty-hand forms, you could leave off the closing sections at the end of SLT and CK and blend all three into one long form when practicing. But let me reiterate.....when and from who Yik Kam learned Wing Chun is really a moot point when considering origin theories because any White Crane-Emei synthesis or Shaolin condensation would have taken place before the Red Boat generation.

Keith

canglong

10-24-2005, 05:32 AM

originally posted by KPM
You cannot apply the same analysis to "SNT/CK/BJ as passed from Cheung Ng to Wong Wah Bo" because it does not exist today. We don't know what Cheung Ng practiced. What we do know about what Wong Wah Bo practiced comes from analyzing the lineages that come from him and comparing them, as noted above. This is the sort of thing that I have been talking about from the beginning. To me, Wing Chun has far more in common with Fukien White Crane when you look at the "DNA" evidence...body mechanics/structure, theories/principles, various techniques...than it does with Shaolin martial arts.
Hey Keith,
It was specifically HFY with which was being referred when speaking of you not training in Wing Chun not in genreal terms. Some of the things we discuss require that direct experience just like you can talk martial arts training with a lot of different people but if that person doesn't train or have a particular interest in the topic do you really expect they will understand any and all intracacies of the topic whatever it may be.

You said you read Mastering Kung Fu, some of this was some of the most significant parts and gone over in detail in the book. There are several things in the book that you seem to simply ingore overlook or maybe are unqualified to analyze. For instance the Wing Chun Formula has not changed since its inception meaning once Hung Fa Yi proves this statement (that argument was gone over extensively in the book) it then follows that all verifiable members on the HFY family tree were passing down a Wing Chun formula meaning SNT/CK/BJ unchanged the exact same way for roughly 300 years. Furthermore one of the topics most relavent in training HFY is the Wing Chun Kiu Sau platform asociated with the WC Formula the forebearer to Chi Sau which is very signifcant because the origin of these same HFY kiu sau methodologies can be traced to Shaolin as a staple of the principles, concepts and techniques of all five original early Shaolin animal styles (Tiger, Snake, Leopard, Crane & Dragon).

Keith,
There is now a HFY practitioner in the San Francisco kwoon that practiced White Crane for over 15 years and he says the footwork is significantly different than Wing Chun and would not hold up to your "DNA" test of what "looks more like" Wing Chun than Shaolin are you aware of the differences in footwork for White Crane as compared to Wing Chun, this again illustrates that surface level differences are not a valid tool to decipher the major differences of each different Southern CMA.

In my research it is becoming more and more appearant the reason Wing chun is referred to as a principle based art is because that is most often where the differences lay not on the surface as you are suggesting. Take the question of whether tan sau is unique to Wing Chun or not for starters. If one were to see the hand methods of other Southern martial arts whether or not the technique being applied were actually referred to as tan sau is not as relavent as the fact that the Wing Chun concept and principle of tan sau itself is unique among Southern CMA. Why is this significant because the use of tan sau varies even among different branches of Wing Chun families so if it where just the technique that defined the action you could conclude that some WC branches are doing tan sau and some are not and no the statement that tan sau is unique would not be correct. But that is not the case though because it is determined that as long as the principle behind the application is being adhered to then the technique is considered the Wing Chun tan sau attached to the original principle which as we know is to deflect or disperse and that is unique among Southern CMA's and as such the statement of Yip Chun's is correct.

Even more if you don't train martial arts and you hear about the tiger and crane forms in Hung Gar might you conclude that it too is a descendent of White Crane. If you don't practice martial arts can you distinguish the differences between Hung Gar, Southern Mantis, Wing Chun, Choy Lee Fat, Eagle Claw, and White Crane or is it because you train in martial arts that you understand that the real differences don't lie in the suttle outward visible differences but the major differences governing the concepts and principles of each different art form.

Jim Roselando

10-24-2005, 06:05 AM

Tony,

Wow Jim you better be careful here or people might misinterpret that as a sign of respect but we all know from your past statements that you could care less about titles or showing reverence to those behind the title.

Respect and honesty fall hand in hand IMO. Please do not get upset if I dont just believe anything that is said on the net but since it is a forum for public discussion I am more than happy to relay other sides of the stories like our discussion about Chan versus Fei Hong.

Please, try to stick to the discussion.

At what point of these Koo Lo traditions does it state that Wing Chun comes from White Crane?

At all points. Snake & "Crane" Even Leugn Jan's Futshan lineages state the same thing so that seems to be what was passed on. Its no different from what Hendrik is stating but the only difference is Hendrik is stating two core sources for the Snake and Crane. So, essentially, we are just Soft Crane!

You keep re-posting stuff like this:

Leung Jan sifu was first a student of Wong Wah Bo. It was from Wong Wah Bo that Leung Jan learned the SLT, CK & BJ.

Quote:
Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. - Rene Ritchie

You are still debating over form names and if they show DNA or not but leave out all the other info. that comes along with it. Why? Would it be soooo terrible if WCK was one form or three? In all honestly Tony I dont think it matters how many forms they are but since you are debating that I am happy to explain our info..

You were happy to "assume" because Leung Jan learn CK & BJ that Leung Yee Tai also did those sets but when I explain that was not the case you seem to ignore it. Wong Wah Bo was a Crane guy before Wing Chun guy. He taught 3 sets where as his classmates taught 1 set. Wong Wah Bo's own pupils and lineages also say there was one set.

Once again, it really does not matter how many forms they are but at the moment there seems to be a more likely based on the known info.. Why would Wong Wah Bo send Leung Jan to learn from his classmate if he didn't feel he could teach him more or help him grow in WCK?

Please list your thoughts on this:

With regards to Pan Nam sifu we must think about a couple of things. You said:

As a skeptic you should either be able to difinetively disprove Yip Chun so we can move on

Pan Nam's Wing Chun training came from Chiu Chow. Chiu Chow learned from Chan Yiu Min. Pan Nam later studied under Lai Yip Chi. Lai Yi Chi first studies Wing Chun under Lui Yiu Chai but later studied "Weng" Chun under Lok Lan Koon who was Dai Fa Min Kam's pupil.

Pan Nam historical info. is mainly from the second source and not Wing Chun. Dai Fa Min Kam was a "Weng" Chunner! His decendants would be the Fung Siu Ching looking Kung Fu with Som Bai Fut base and not Siu Lin Tau base! I think this could be a possible reason for the crossed or meshed stories. It would not support Cheung Ng having invlovlement in "Wing" but you never know?

I am also curious to know if Dai Fa Min Kam lineages that trace back to Jee Shim list Cheung Ng as the source and if Cheung Ng is the source of their art then why is it Som Bai Fut base where as Wing is Siu Lin Tau base?

Peace,

Jim Roselando

10-24-2005, 06:07 AM

Hello HS!

Nice post!

Thanks for sharing your research.

Regards,
Jim

Jim,

IMHO, military who later fleet to Taiwan and Shao Lin monk blend, doesnt seems to be likely.

We know the incident of Dong Chan of Shao Lin. The Taiwan leaders doesnt listern to Dong Chan. However, White Crane of Fujian kung fu master such as Bai Chieh were in Taiwan and return to Fujian after the Taiwan defense collapse.

So, IMHHHO, that give us a clue that Taiwan at 1650's are closed to White Crane of Fujian then Shao Lin.

And if one looks at my previous post about the Technology of Shao lIn within about 100 years before and after Ming collapse. We see that military's kung fu is strong. and why is shao lin needed?

As for the Army goes to Taiwan who started Tien Die Hui or Chin Tai San we know there are White Crane of Fujian based because thier alta in Taiwan still praying at Fang Chie-Niang. Not Dong Chan. So, even the Tien Die Hui , or the Chin San Dai organization of General Zhen Chen-Kung or Chen Ding Nang, as the evident we have today, there are White Crane based.

Thus, Looking at the historical possibility, and technological DNA.
The legend of Ng Mui the White Crane master indeed has good amount of merit.

Ofcause, we have to be open minded and if there is Shao Lin and Taiwan evidence turn out we want to accept it with joy that we found something excellent. because it is important piece of data. However, up to today, we see White Crane of Fujain, Taiwan military, Tian Die Hui, or Chin San Dai bound is strong.

Wing Chun Kuen is from the Southern so IMHO it is nature that the Southern /Taiwan military, tian die hui, chin san dai might influence Red boat WCK. However, we know today, these are White Crane of fujian related people.

Above is the data around 1650 to 1700 and beyond.

Then, in 1850's uprising, we know Lee Man Mau is White crane Weng Chun.

(Rene, I finally found this white crane guy who you are looking for)

There was another White crane weng Chun person Lim Cuin or (Lim wan Cing) who was given by Tai Ping as a King title. The title is Lieh Wang San Chian Sui, or the King of Fury 3000 years ( note: the emperor is 10000 years, and this king is rank 3000 years) he was a master of white crane of fujian and gathering thousands of followers to echo Taiping's uprising at De Hua County. His title was given by the heavenly king Hung Siew Chuan.

Since we know about CLF, we know about Lee Man-Mao lead the Red Turban uprising or the first Chinese Actors uprising in China's history, We know about Lim Cuin's uprising.

We can see what happen then. CLF and White Crane of Fujian are influencing Big.

From the above 2 rebels or uprising or Anti era
I wont say there is no influence from other parties. However, we need data similar to the one above. To pin point to the specific.

As for the Shao Lin Theory, I am happy if more data will be found. That is due to as i post in the Spline interpolation theory, any great data will help to interpolate what is likely happen for WCK.

Since about 100 years before Ming Collapse, to 1853 where Lee Man Mau and LIm Ciun uprising. There is almost empty data bank on shao lin involvement developing new arts which related to WCK. and the Data of Dong Chan from shao lin seems to point to different direction than Shao Lin is a "sole supporter " to Taiwan's Zhen Chen-Kung's anti Qing army or Tien Die Hui , but those Crane people were closer then Shao LIn monk such as Dong Chan. Thus, this fit as propose by historians that the So Called Shao Lin mention in Tien Tee Hui activity is not the Real Shao Lin.

It is only my personal view that I would like to SPLINE and Fuzzy logic all data from the view points of history, Shao Lin, technology dna...... input everything into the self-learning Artificial Inteligent machine and let it form a multi-dimentional Spline intepolation close form non gap continous model to see what might be possible happen.

And for the most recent Spline interpolation, eventhought the ancestors doesnt use real name. The Crane, Snake, Ng Mui, Mia Shun, emei, SLT, Emei , YJKYM, Tan Fook Bong Kie couple,... seems fit into one big piece and having smooth function for details.

Just some view.

Again, please take what I post as an opinion. Nothing is worthed for argueing. People can remember things differently. So different people can have thier own history. why not? Life is not black and white but with 7 major colors and millions of color is possible between the black and white.

peace and harmony

Jim Roselando

10-24-2005, 10:02 AM

Hello Kieth & Duende,

One can not talk about "genetic bloodlines" and Southern MMA's without understanding Kiu Sau and how it's "DNA trait" is found in these and other Southern CMA styles. Once a cutural and philisophical understanding of Kiu Sau is found then understanding where Chi Sau comes from is not so far off.

---Ah! It seems you have understood the DNA analogy better than Tony has. What you suggest could turn into a very good topic. How about starting a new thread discussing what Kiu Sau is, where it is found in other Southern CMA's, and how it is related to Chi Sau?

IMO Kiu Sau is not DNA. Kiu Sao is a common practice among different arts. The difference is something that is commonly practiced still may have different DNA. Example: Hung Gar Tiet Sien based DNA's Kiu Sao versus say the San Chin based DNA arts like Mantis, White Crane etc Kiu Sao. Both are Kiu Sao but both are different DNA.

Before someone can use Kiu Sao as the base for understanding Chi Sao we must figure out which Wing Chun Chi Sao we are talking about or comparing. The Circle Hands or possibly more modern Luk Sao

Kieth is totally right tho! This is a whole nutha thread for discussion.

Hendrik

10-24-2005, 11:09 AM

KPM

10-25-2005, 09:27 AM

Hey Tony!

It was specifically HFY with which was being referred when speaking of you not training in Wing Chun not in genreal terms.

---OK. My mistake. But is not HFY Wing Chun? I have studied several different lineages of Wing Chun, though not HFY. But so what? Is it not Wing Chun as well?

You said you read Mastering Kung Fu, some of this was some of the most significant parts and gone over in detail in the book. There are several things in the book that you seem to simply ingore overlook or maybe are unqualified to analyze.

---No doubt. It has been awhile since I read it. But this thread is not about that book.

For instance the Wing Chun Formula has not changed since its inception

---And what evidence do you have to document that statement?

meaning once Hung Fa Yi proves this statement

---I don't think it proved anything. But I'd have to go back and review it.

(that argument was gone over extensively in the book) it then follows that all verifiable members on the HFY family tree were passing down a Wing Chun formula meaning SNT/CK/BJ unchanged the exact same way for roughly 300 years.

---That's one heck of a statement, that would require some pretty impressive documentation to back up. What proof is there that Garret Gee didn't simply make it up based upon his extensive background in a variety of CMAs? As I've said before, the problem with the history provided by HFY is that is just seems to have sprung out of the ether....Garret Gee appears to have no Si Hings, no parallel lineages, no Sifu to referr to, etc.

There is now a HFY practitioner in the San Francisco kwoon that practiced White Crane for over 15 years and he says the footwork is significantly different than Wing Chun and would not hold up to your "DNA" test of what "looks more like"

---Has he also studied Pin Sun WCK, Yik Kam WCK, or YSK WCK? That seems to be the standard that you and Duende hold up to the rest of us before any opinion can be formed.

In my research it is becoming more and more appearant the reason Wing chun is referred to as a principle based art is because that is most often where the differences lay not on the surface as you are suggesting.

---I never suggested that comparisons would only be based on surface appearances. The "engine" or power-base behind an art is very significant. Go back and read more closely. When I have talked about "DNA", I have mentioned biomechanics, concepts & principles, as well as technique.

fact that the Wing Chun concept and principle of tan sau itself is unique among Southern CMA.

---I'm not so sure about that. I have seen the Jook Lum Mantis guys do something very very similar. Jim may be able to comment on that.

as long as the principle behind the application is being adhered to then the technique is considered the Wing Chun tan sau attached to the original principle which as we know is to deflect or disperse and that is unique among Southern CMA's and as such the statement of Yip Chun's is correct.

---Then you would be essentially saying that no other CMA uses a palm up position to disperse outward thru contact with the forearm. I seriously doubt that this is true. What I was referring to was use of that specific terminology.."tan sau"..... to describe a technique.

---But now we are straying pretty far afield from the original purpose of this thread.

Keith

Jim Roselando

10-25-2005, 10:06 AM

Hendrik

10-25-2005, 10:36 AM

(that argument was gone over extensively in the book) it then follows that all verifiable members on the HFY family tree were passing down a Wing Chun formula meaning SNT/CK/BJ unchanged the exact same way for roughly 300 years.

---That's one heck of a statement, that would require some pretty impressive documentation to back up. What proof is there that Garret Gee didn't simply make it up based upon his extensive background in a variety of CMAs? As I've said before, the problem with the history provided by HFY is that is just seems to have sprung out of the ether....Garret Gee appears to have no Si Hings, no parallel lineages, no Sifu to referr to, etc.

I want to believe the roughly 300 years old unchanged ....

Can someone please provide

1, The mother DNA of how and what this 300 years old art is created from and where by who?

2, Since the Shao Lin Theory believe in WCK is from Shao Lin, IMHO, we can use the GM Sek Koh Sam's and Shao Lin model as a model to present the details of the theory.

Similar to late's GM Sek Koh Sam's Shao Lin art, it will be great if someone can provide similar type of details and the link with Shao Lin .... similar to Gm Sek koh Sam's students and Shao Lin communication and link.

(in this case, One also can see the localization evolution even within One or two generation on the set. )

http://www.sekkohsam.tk/

http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=southern&action=display&thread=1104931321

IMHO
Even for Cho family who preserve the SLT Kuen Kuit of SLT and the set, in order to maintain to preserve a certain concept is difficult after years and years. the set still going through Localization Evolution as we can see today after Red boat Yik Kam era ... the same set is no longer fitting the kuen kuit. Thus, there are SLT set in Cho family which is not reflect what the Kuen Kuit said.

So the "unchanged the exact same way" is idea, even if Late GM Cho Hung-Choy did it and GM Cho On did it there will be different because ----- the major influence which is the Kung fu cultivation of the individual changes or localization Evolved the set.

Very distinct different will be occuring before one cultivate Zhen Qi and after One knows Zhen Qi and after one naturally surfing zhen qi.

Thus, IMHHHO, one has to look at the 3 level model to pin point what is the characteristics of the individual instead of looking at a formular or a program.

since
The intrinsic physical structure, force vectors, and Awareness nature of the individual is going to produce very different result.

Thus, IMHO, Art after 30years will either evolve, expand, fade away.... changes. It cant stay still....

Now, how to cultivate the elements of the 3 level model so that the set or ART can be influence to preserve a certain important quality. That is a broad and very important topic.

Say if Tan Sau Ng exist, Say if Tan Sau Ng's Tan Sau is marvellous and magical. The question is then with the 3 level model, How deep or far Tan Sau Ng has reached at every level of the 3 level model in order to be able to perform the Marvellous and magical Tan Sau? if this is not known, the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng never was passed down because no one can even do it or come to close because the element of cultivation of the element of the 3 level model were never known.

It will be great to see the Shao Lin Theoricians come up with data. until then, I keep an open minded. As a friendly reminder, It is just Theory, so nothing needs to get fury. we all can choose to ignore what we think is not suitable to us. and that is including ignoring my post.

I disagree about we cannot trace WCK before Redboat era because with the 3 level model elements. Yes, we can. For to develop the 3 elements of the 3 level model has to takes decades, it is not a one night deal -- for the Kung Fu of WCK is not about just knowing certain trick. IMHHHHO

just some thought.

Hendrik

10-25-2005, 10:39 AM

canglong

10-25-2005, 02:08 PM

originally posted by KPM
As I've said before, the problem with the history provided by HFY is that is just seems to have sprung out of the ether....Garret Gee appears to have no Si Hings, no parallel lineages, no Sifu to referr to, etc.

As an outsider to Hung Fa Yi it is impossible to know all that we(as members) know which is why your statement is insulting and demeaning. There are actual eyewitness accounts of our descendent or sibak gung visiting the San Francisco kwoon to pay respect to his sisuk Grand Master Gee, but what business of this is yours or anyone else not directly associated with HFY. Your lack of understanding traditional kung fu culture is what prevents you from discovering this information on your own the way others have before you by doing things correctly when respectfully inquiring to the source and receiving answers directly.
To examine the root cause of problematic statements such as these we need to first recognize and understand the source. You say you don’t practice Hung Fa Yi and you don’t recall what was in the book so instead of first hand experience and knowledge you just grab hold of and run with old Robert Chu rumor mill and gossip topics of the past and write them as if they were fact regardless of if there were any truth in the words or not you heard them before so you are just passing them on again. All HFY members have heard this complaint before about we don’t know where we come from because those outside of Hung Fa YI don’t know HFY history, traditions or culture. That is Robert Chu talk, out of turn as it were he has a history of this there is a thread on this very forum about the allusions he is known to have perpetuated to his students by misrepresenting Chi Sim Weng Chun as Yip Man’s Wing Chun. To the chagrin of one of his students who while attending a Seminar hosted by Grand Master Hoffman realized what Robert Chu was teaching as Yip Man Wing Chun was actuall Chi Sim Weng Chun. Confronted with the experience and training directly from Grand Master Hoffman and in the presence of Master Meng the student was so moved at the difference in reality of what he learned as opposed to what Robert Chu was falsely teaching he felt it necessary to start that thread about Chi Sim on this very forum. This is the same Robert Chu who was quoted on another forum calling Grand Master William Cheung a pimp and a drug dealer. This same old information keeps coming out again and again and it’s the same old sources again and again, Robert Chu, hendrik and there fan club people like Jim Roselando here feverishly pitching hendrik’s theory.
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1338&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Why does this happen because of continued refusal to recognize that the information put forth by the Ving Tsun Museum was all information researched thoroughly and independent of and prior to Master Meng becoming a disciple of Hung Fa YI. Master Meng has as varied a martial arts background as you will find giving him more than enough personal experience to understand all that he has learned prior to and since becoming a HFY Disciple. You can also take a look and read what other accomplished martial artist have to say after after experiencing HFY first hand.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1196

that is There is a family tree for the public to view and research on there own, HFY family members have been trained in the traditions of HFY and its oral history and culture that is backed up with the actual practicing of Hung Fa Yi itself there is no getting around this as you seem to suggest there should be. Yet you continue to use a man that won’t answer simple questions and another known for his ability to spread rumor and gossip as your source. There are many many people with more knowledge than yourself with information you don’t have because they understand how to get it but without practicing Hung Fa Yi trying to uncover or understand this information is futile.
Yip Man would never have to decipher wing chun through a white crane model provided by this none responsive name changing character. If you truly want to distinguish the difference first get some first hand experience with the White Crane footwork and then come to a Hung Fa Yi seminar discussing the topic of Shaolin Kiu Sau rolling and crossing platform and how it is the predecessor to chi kiu and chi sau something you need to experience first hand to get an understanding of before you can talk about the differences and likely comparisons of White Crane to Wing Chun. You are probably ignoring all the Chinese Government official documents that dispute your argument. You already overlooked the comments posted earlier describing first hand experience of Phillip Chu a true White Crane master of 15 years and in his own opinion in no way is white crane footwork and wing chun compatible, white crane footwork and Yip Man footwork are 2 separate and distinct footwork recognizable by the members that practice each art.
Your source is not practicing wing chun according to Rene Ritchie and his theory has enough mileage on it for the normal person but instead here he comes again and again with his so called white crane theory and for what because he likes to be an attention grabber posting all day and night and now because of your statements he will have more to read. He might just want to go back to his practice of Buddhism instead of spending all his time on the internet forums posting this fallacy that all wing chun comes from white crane.

Internet views of hendrik and his “models”
Originally posted by Op108wc
O Hendrik couldn't make whipped cream out of water, and no matter how hard Hendrik flogs it, whips it, beats it, shakes it, kicks it and prods it with a sharp stick, "White Crane + Emie" his latest Ooop...., just doesn't spring to life. The fact is -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

“Hendrik is an idealist. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and where he's going but he's on his way to write his-story.”

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1253&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

William E

10-25-2005, 02:56 PM

Tony my friend, I can understand your frustration with characters like KPM and Hendrik. Having been at the kwoon in San Francisco when family members, who came from China, made sure to stop the kwoon to pay their respects it is both insulting and frustrating to hear mistruths and rumors continued to be spread by a certain group of individuals. It is no wonder why KPM and others are in the dark about HFY. True and sincere martial artists who knew how to act and show proper respect to the organization like Gary Collins and Master Benny Meng are in the know and have the information that eludes you. Just because you don’t know about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And who are you anyway to think you are deserving of such information?

Although this is an open forum the words and sentences that are typed still have consequences. It’s funny to me that the people associated with this Chu character have the same negative energy that he perpetuates. I have no problem with people having opinions. The problem I have is that the people who are writing these posts have no clue as to what they are saying or how insulting they are to whole kung fu families. Hendrik can write IMHHHO but there is nothing HUMBLE about what this character writes. Never mind he can never “Answer” a question that is posed to him and leaves when things are not going his way. How many incarnations will this person need in order to be taken seriously? It doesn’t matter as he will never be taken seriously by the matial arts community. He’s a legend in his own mind….

William E.

duende

10-25-2005, 05:55 PM

Kieth,

A couple of common skills in Southern Chinese MA for all to check out!

1) White Crane Weng Chun version of the Wing Chun "Tan"

2) Jook Lum Mantis version of the Wing Chun "Bong"

If I was a betting man, and these foto's were placed on a WCK forum to check out, most would not know they were not Wing Chun.

Peace,

Jim,

If you do a search here for WC origins, you will find a thread from a year or so ago where Chango and David posted about a dozen or so JPEG'S with variations of Tan/Bong Fook from other Southern CMA's. They weren't hard to find and most of them were closer to WC than the pics you posted.

The dynamics of Kiu Sau and the way it is used in Southern CMA's is VERY revealing. Many concepts that some feel are unique to WC are in fact shared amongst many CMA's, as well as other MA's in general. This is not to say that WC does not have it's own identity however.

Concepts such as Self-Centerline and A->B Centerline are not only found in other Southern CMA hand to hand concepts, but weapons as well.

This is where the root of Bai Jong is.

Hendrik

10-25-2005, 08:25 PM

1, Your lack of understanding traditional kung fu culture is what prevents you from discovering this information on your own the way others have before you by doing things correctly when respectfully inquiring to the source and receiving answers directly. -------------

If you think you understand better then all of us about traditional kung fu culture then Please present your view to us. I believe we are open minded to your view eventhough we might or might not agree with you.

Be patient and take time to explain your view to us.

2, you just grab hold of and run with old Robert Chu rumor mill and gossip topics of the past and write them as if they were fact regardless of if there were any truth in the words or not you heard them before so you are just passing them on again. ...... ------------

What does Robert has to do with the Topic -- The original wing chun?

Do you realized the way you post make other wonder why do you have so much fear that you go burst out?

Relax, calm down, examine your thoughts.

People sometimes ask different type of questions if you want to answer it then go ahead. If you think it is ridiculous questions, then just ignore it. Getting your Qi to be in a chaotic state is not good for your body and mind. IMHO.

3, This same old information keeps coming out again and again and it’s the same old sources again and again, Robert Chu, hendrik and there fan club people like Jim Roselando here feverishly pitching hendrik’s theory.
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1338&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Why does this happen because of continued refusal to recognize that the information put forth by the Ving Tsun Museum was all information researched thoroughly ...... ------------

Why should anyone accept other's perspective by default?
Similar to why should one accept to buy from a saleman just because the saleman is pushing?
Why cant the buyers examine the goods?

It is the democratic world. It is a country of free right and all human is believed to be borned equal.

if one created a theory, then expect it will be examine in details and or even critics biasly. That is just nature of how things work because different people has different perspective and viewing from different angles. If the Theory can stand the examination then sooner or later others will respect it. if the theory can't stand then one always can improve it or change the direction of research.

4, You already overlooked the comments posted earlier describing first hand experience of Phillip Chu a true White Crane master of 15 years and in his own opinion in no way is white crane footwork and wing chun compatible, white crane footwork and Yip Man footwork are 2 separate and distinct footwork recognizable by the members that practice each art. --------

A,
IMHO, we can still get hold of White Crane of Fujian's Writing collection before 1800. We can compare that instead of taking any single person words or experience and a representative of White Crane of Fujian.

B,
IMHO,
SLT using the Equal Shoulder Stance from Emei 12 Zhuang NOT sanchin, Thus expect the WCK's foodwor kand White Crane of Fujian's Footwork to be different.

5,
Your source is not practicing wing chun according to Rene Ritchie and his theory has enough mileage on it for the normal person but instead here he comes again and again with his so called white crane theory and for what because he likes to be an attention grabber posting all day and night and now because of your statements he will have more to read.

He might just want to go back to his practice of Buddhism instead of spending all his time on the internet forums posting this fallacy that all wing chun comes from white crane.----------

Why is the White Crane + Emei 12 Zhuang become SLT theory cause so much suffering to you ? Why cant you just ignore it if you dont think it worth anything?

6,
Internet views of hendrik and his “models”
Originally posted by Op108wc
O Hendrik couldn't make whipped cream out of water, and no matter how hard Hendrik flogs it, whips it, beats it, shakes it, kicks it and prods it with a sharp stick, "White Crane + Emie" his latest Ooop...., just doesn't spring to life. The fact is -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

“Hendrik is an idealist. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and where he's going but he's on his way to write his-story.”

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1253&perpage=15&pagenumber=4 ---------

To be honest with you, I expect people to take a part my Fujian White Crane + Emei 12 zhuang become SLT theory which based on the search of the possibilities from the ancestors words of Cho family and YKS and Koo Loo ..

If it worth nothing, just discard it. If the theory, the models, the details can set one free and empower one then use it. That simple.

As I have post before that I am working with SPLINE / FUZZY LOGIC INTERPOLATION THEORY now. we can use the SPLINE model to check Shao Lin Theory, Fujian White Crane + Emei 12 zhuang becomes SLT theory, Wudang Theory.. and all other theories as people bring it up.

Why Got attached to any particular theory? No reason to, may be all theory is right, may be all is partially right, may be all is wrong.... there are all possibilities.

You might not know that just because it is what Hendrik Said is Truth or False. Hendrik is just a name. Truth or False is about the content and details of the theory which the Name Hendrik doesnt guarentee or have any weight on the content. It can be from any Name.

If you feel empower and free to not read my post. then dont read it. why make yourself suffer.

Relax if what I post cant hold water then no one is going to even waste thier time to read it.

We better get back to the topic or else let some others post thier view.

NOw, Peace, and Harmony

canglong

10-25-2005, 10:47 PM

hendrik,
Has your practice of buddhism taught you nothing more than corny cliches and the improper use of regurgitated psychobabble as a smoke screen to hide from the truth. Fear is hiding behind one thousand names and 10,000 post, fear surrounds those that talk but don't walk and most certainly fear comes to the person that would rather go on vacation than answer the questions that is when fear comes in and you are obviously full of it.

Fear is never moving outside one's own house to face reality. There is already one White Crane masters that we know of that disagrees with you. Where are the White Crane masters that do support your theory and at what writings of theirs do you point to support your idea that all wing chun comes from Fujian White Crane.

Fear is the drive behind lunacy, where are all your thousand upon thousands of post in the Southern Kung Fu section of this forum discussing White Crane are you even aware there is a question about white crane just sitting there for a couple of weeks now. No, you are just content to bring all your White Crane talk to a Wing Chun forum in which you openly confess not to practice.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38801

Fear consumes it keeps a person up all day and all night posting, changing names, moving from forum to forum repeating the same old story again and again leaving there practice of buddhism at the way side as they march toward a dead end path searching for that final elusive self congratulatory pat on the back that can never arrive.

hendrik stop telling the Yip Man family that you know their history better than them, stop telling TWC you know their history better than them, stop telling HFY, Weng Shun, Chi Sim Weng Chun, Ving Tsun, Pan Nam, Vietnam Wign Chun and all others that you know better than they how their history unfolded.

Never willing to accept the truth you fear you will always be a seller trapped in a buyers market. hendrik you know the questions now is the time to let go of your fear and answer them. Relax empower yourself with the answers and feel the liberation of your Qi as the burden of avoidance is lifted from your shoulders.

KPM

10-26-2005, 04:03 AM

Tony

There are actual eyewitness accounts of our descendent or sibak gung visiting the San Francisco kwoon to pay respect to his sisuk Grand Master Gee,

---That's great! You guys should document it to show that HFY does exist outside of Garret Gee and his students.

but what business of this is yours or anyone else not directly associated with HFY.

---From the very beginning the history provided by HFY has had problems with legitimacy for the reasons previously mentioned. I'm not the only one that thinks this way. It is no "business" of mine or anyone else....as long as you don't mind many other people thinking this way. If you want to dispel that impression.....then you will make it our "business."

You say you don’t practice Hung Fa Yi and you don’t recall what was in the book

---True. I don't recall the details of what is in the book because it has been awhile since I read it. Do you have a photographic memory?

those outside of Hung Fa YI don’t know HFY history, traditions or culture.

---So HFY is an island? With its own history, traditions, and culture completely separate from the rest of the CMA world? Another impression that people have formed of HFY (and not just me) is that its followers are very "cultish" and act like they are defending a religious belief. Comments like the one above reinforce that impression. Comments along the lines of "it is impossible for you to know because you are not part of the inner circle" reinforce that impression. The comment that you posted in your reply..."with information you don’t have because they understand how to get it but without practicing Hung Fa Yi trying to uncover or understand this information is futile".... certainly reinforces that impression. The level of emotion and nastiness that emerges when HFY is questioned reinforces that impression. The level of enmity in attacks on someone like Robert Chu that you wrote reinforce that impression. Robert Chu had absolutely nothing to do with this thread or with the impressions that I have personally formed of HFY. There was no reason at all to bring up his name, or to attack him in such a way on this thread.

Why does this happen because of continued refusal to recognize that the information put forth by the Ving Tsun Museum was all information researched thoroughly and independent of and prior to Master Meng becoming a disciple of Hung Fa YI.

---Prior to the book "Mastering Kung Fu" coming out, it was promoted as presenting the historical research that had been done by the VTM. I was really looking forward to seeing that and anticipating the book. I ordered it as soon as it was available. I was very disappointed when I received it because it did not footnote references within the text, did not quote from historical documents located in China, and did not even bother to provide a bibliography page noting the various source works. I don't doubt for a minute that Benny Meng and the people at the VTM have put in a lot of work and dedication. But when claiming "thorough historical research", it would be nice to see that research presented in an actual academic format.

Yet you continue to use a man that won’t answer simple questions and another known for his ability to spread rumor and gossip as your source.

---I am "using" no one. I can think for myself. Can you?

You are probably ignoring all the Chinese Government official documents that dispute your argument.

---You may be right! But it would not be intentional! What documents do you refer to? They certainly were not reproduced in "Mastering Kung Fu." Are they posted on the VTM website?

You already overlooked the comments posted earlier describing first hand experience of Phillip Chu a true White Crane master of 15 years and in his own opinion in no way is white crane footwork and wing chun compatible, white crane footwork and Yip Man footwork are 2 separate and distinct footwork recognizable by the members that practice each art.

---I didn't overlook that at all. Didn't you read my response? And didn't you say he was a HFY practitioner, not a Yip Man practitioner? And now he is a "true White Crane master"? The story seems to grow in the telling.

Your source is not practicing wing chun according to Rene Ritchie and his theory

---Now you are dragging Rene into this along with Robert Chu?

The fact is -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

---Absolutely! Have you not been paying attention? We have been trying to talk about origins. Absolutely the two exist today as distinct arts. But that does not mean they were unrelated in the distant past.

“Hendrik is an idealist. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and where he's going but he's on his way to write his-story.”

---You may be right! :) But regardless of who Hendrik is.....how he chooses to post....what he has done in the past......at least for me the basic theory that he has presented makes good sense and has the best evidence to back it up. This may not be true for you....which is fine. I'm not some kind of cultish follower...I've never met Hendrik, we seldom if ever correspond, and I have managed to tick him off enough in the past that I'm sure I am on his "persona non-grada" list as I mentioned before. :eek:

---Now....you said I overlooked comments about Phillip Chu. You quoted Yip Chun as saying that "tan sau" was unique to Wing Chun and backed that quote up as factual. Did you overlook Jim's attached photo showing a "tan sau" from White Crane?

Duende:

If you do a search here for WC origins, you will find a thread from a year or so ago where Chango and David posted about a dozen or so JPEG'S with variations of Tan/Bong Fook from other Southern CMA's. They weren't hard to find and most of them were closer to WC than the pics you posted.

---I'm sure that is true! It was Tony that claimed that "tan sau" was unique to Wing Chun....not Jim!

Keith

Jim Roselando

10-26-2005, 05:47 AM

Duende,

Jim,

If you do a search here for WC origins, you will find a thread from a year or so ago where Chango and David posted about a dozen or so JPEG'S with variations of Tan/Bong Fook from other Southern CMA's. They weren't hard to find and most of them were closer to WC than the pics you posted.

I am sure we can search the net and find all sorts of pictures that are similar. Heck, you can only turn your hand and body so many ways. So, then the question is:

Whats the difference between the so-called looking Tan Sao shapes? Whats the energy behind the Tan Sao shape. What makes WCK Tan different from White Crane Water Hand or Jook Lum Chok Sao? What is the component that was added to whatever Southern Fist art to bring out the Soft Sensing Sticking?

The dynamics of Kiu Sau and the way it is used in Southern CMA's is VERY revealing. Many concepts that some feel are unique to WC are in fact shared amongst many CMA's, as well as other MA's in general. This is not to say that WC does not have it's own identity however.

I am pretty in tune with Kiu Sao. I was a Jook Lum practitioner for a few years. Kiu Sao is common stuff among the Hard Bow/Bridge arts. Just like push hands is common among the Soft Bridge arts. You stated when you understand Kiu Sau you will see where Chi Sao comes from but you must start a thread and figure out which Chi Sao etc. and its properties. Thats another thread! Feel free to start it.

Concepts such as Self-Centerline and A->B Centerline are not only found in other Southern CMA hand to hand concepts, but weapons as well.

This is where the root of Bai Jong is.

Please tell us what Bai Jong is to you? Is it a structural pre-fighting posture? Is it a state of being? What is Bai Jong to you?

Regards,

canglong

10-26-2005, 06:42 AM

Keith,

---From the very beginning the history provided by HFY has had problems with legitimacy for the reasons previously mentioned. I'm not the only one that thinks this way. It is no "business" of mine or anyone else....as long as you don't mind many other people thinking this way. If you want to dispel that impression.....then you will make it our "business."This is really simple HFY may appear to be an island to you looking from the outside in the documentation does exist and there are people that know and people that don't and as stated may times before the hones is not on those that know. For at the end of the day if you choose to go with your opinion against the evidence provided you no matter how much more you insist you need it is no one's concern but that of your own. There is a small swell of support for this overstated position that all Wing Chun comes from White Crane + emie and 12 Zhaung it is hendrik, yourself, Jim R., Rene and Robert Chu, maybe some others and that is why you see the same names over and over in these different threads discussing this same topic but believe me there is not enough support to get up in arms about. However, the reason you see people post an alternative to this theory is to insure that the counter point to this theory is represented because no one would ever find a need to bother with this hendrik or his theory if it were relogated to hendrik's own experience and family but saying that White Crane is the mother art to all Wing Chun is as irresponsible as it is insulting.
---True. I don't recall the details of what is in the book because it has been awhile since I read it. Do you have a photographic memory?
You don't need to be like anyone else just re-read chapter 5.
But when claiming "thorough historical research", it would be nice to see that research presented in an actual academic format.
Is that the way you viewed hendrik's thesis.
---Now....you said I overlooked comments about Phillip Chu. You quoted Yip Chun as saying that "tan sau" was unique to Wing Chun and backed that quote up as factual. Did you overlook Jim's attached photo showing a "tan sau" from White Crane?
You must have overlooked the supporting argument for this as well.
Did Jim post something.

Jim Roselando

10-26-2005, 06:44 AM

Hello William,

Having been at the kwoon in San Francisco when family members, who came from China, made sure to stop the kwoon to pay their respects it is both insulting and frustrating to hear mistruths and rumors continued to be spread by a certain group of individuals.

Question for you?

When Mr. Gee's Kung Fu bother showed up in San Fran did he demo his HFY for all? Did he mention they had a private school or were sharing their art with some friends or not? Please share with us other clubs or private individuals that are teaching HFY and where they can be located? Having more than one source for research is always the best for all this fun debating stuff! :)

Peace,
Jim

stonecrusher69

10-26-2005, 06:53 AM

This is where the root of Bai Jong is.

Please tell us what Bai Jong is to you? Is it a structural pre-fighting posture? Is it a state of being? What is Bai Jong to you?

I don't use a Bai jong,most of th etime there is little time for a pre-fighting posture.Also a Bai Jong posture tells your oppent what style you know.

Chango

10-26-2005, 08:45 AM

Once again I think a large part of the felling of seperation is what qualifies for "tan sau" for one does not constitute what is called a "tan sau" for another. The subject being one that demands physical context it becomes almost impossible to look at a picture and draw any sort of conclusion. As for anyone that has been exposed to many different lineages can verify there are many different standards for what "tan sau" is. I think this can expand beyond technique even when discussing principle, concepts etc... things really get spread across the board in terms of definition and understanding. So you have two groups those who have experienced it first hand and those who haven't. For those who have not experience it first hand I can only say from my P.O.V. if you are interested in HFY it is a must that you do before making a call either way.

You have to realize that when discussing Hung fa Yi things are not set up in the general since. It is a very precise approach. (not saying others are not precise) I'm just saying that for HFY a picture will not due. As a matter of fact one really has to understand the frame of mind that is consitant with HFY's approach. I know this can bring feelings of disatisfaction for some about answers given about having to physically experience to understand. This is not something that is new. However this does not give people the right to play procecuting attorney every time something is brought to the table. Keep in mind I have no issues with you questioning things. but don't you think it is going a little to far to demand that a visiting kung fu family member demonstrate his/her skill upon arrivial?

I think alot of times people forget that when each lineage offers something to the community it is just that an "offering" and to many people have a false since of self by thinking they are the center of the martial arts world conducting some sort of court proceddings.LOL! So when you say to me "show me a picture I.D.?" It is only logical before I do this I have ask you " who the hell are you?" LOL!

Just some thoughts,

Chango

KPM

10-26-2005, 09:23 AM

Tony:

This is really simple HFY may appear to be an island to you looking from the outside in the documentation does exist

---Then produce it! Show it to the Wing Chun community! Why is it such a big secret?

and there are people that know and people that don't and as stated may times before the hones is not on those that know.

---It certainly is if you wish to educate the rest of us in where we have wrong impressions or wrong information! It isn't enough to say...."you're wrong, but I'm not going to prove why you are wrong because you aren't part of the inner circle."
Again, that is somewhat of a "cultist" mentality.

There is a small swell of support for this overstated position that all Wing Chun comes from White Crane + emie and 12 Zhaung it is hendrik, yourself, Jim R., Rene and Robert Chu, maybe some others and that is why you see the same names over and over in these different threads discussing this same topic but believe me there is not enough support to get up in arms about.

---Then why did you get so "up in arms" in your last post with such a venomous attack on Robert Chu? :confused:

saying that White Crane is the mother art to all Wing Chun is as irresponsible as it is insulting.

---Why do you think that? Because it is counter to your own theory? What happened to keeping an open mind? I find it neither irresponsible or insulting. Likewise, I find the theory that Wing Chun is the culmination and final evolution of Shaolin neither irresponsible or insulting. I continue to keep an open mind about any evidence that may turn up supporting either theory. I was hoping you had something substantial to share supporting the Shaolin theory. But evidently you do not. All we have really accomplished is to establish that the earliest historical personage with a possible connection to Wing Chun is Cheung Ng. He made a substantial contribution to the Chinese Opera and the Red Boats. He was somehow connected to Shaolin and had the nickname of "Tan Sau Ng." But Wing Chun wasn't the only art practiced on the Red Boats, and it is not at all clear that Tan Sau was or is exclusive to Wing Chun. It appears that White Crane has a technique almost identical to tan sau. But Cheung Ng is a very significant link nonetheless. Now, unless you have something further to contribute that actually supports the Shaolin theory, I am done with this thread.

Keith

Jim Roselando

10-26-2005, 09:28 AM

Hello Chango!

Interesting post.

So, I have to assume (now I am sounding like Tony!) ;) that since you wrote this:

but don't you think it is going a little to far to demand that a visiting kung fu family member demonstrate his/her skill upon arrivial?

Not really. Most people are very happy to show their stuff. Even in the private schools. Why? Because they are with family!

I agree with you tho!

I think alot of times people forget that when each lineage offers something to the community it is just that an "offering"

Yes! All of us offer our experience and research when discussing on a Forum. We have to keep in mind that anything is possible and just because the discussion is working on finding what is a More Likely or a Less Likely it still does not mean more info. will come out over the years that may link more stuff etc.. But! The only way to do that is with discussion, questions, more discussion, more questions, possible what if's etc.. So, we have to start with the what arts were popular back around the time WCK was possible created and go from there linking language, terms, methods, structure, stories, lineages etc. etc... Then, everyone offerings can possible mean more or less but still always open.

and to many people have a false since of self by thinking they are the center of the martial arts world conducting some sort of court proceddings.LOL!

People have hobbies. Some like to look into history and arts. Some like to do what ever. Everone has different hobbies. Having a discussion and asking for more info. would not be a court case since this is a WCK discussion forum with lots of experienced people from lots of arts etc.. With the ammount of info. on the table one would have to keep asking everyone for more support to everyones possible theory.

So when you say to me "show me a picture I.D.?" It is only logical before I do this I have ask you " who the hell are you?" LOL!

ROFLOL! We need to keep in mind that the level of questioning being asked would be no different from the questioning of my own art/info.. Example:

Recently an article was published in China regarding Leung Jan's final teaching. The researcher/writer listed specific dates. One thing I notced was that my Si Gung was mentioned as being requested by Fung Chun sifu to leave Gu Lo to spread WCK to Canton with him. According to the article Fung Chun sifu asked Fung Chiu to go to Canton around 1962. Fung Chiu lived then went with Fung Chun to Hong Kong a few years later. According to my Sifu he began training under Fung Chiu around 1965 when he was a freshman in College. This info was given to me years before the article was even printed. So, after cross-checking the info I can see that Mr Mui's info. hold water.

Now! Was I being disrepectfull to my sifu by checking his info? We went for Dim Sum this past weekend and I gave him a copy of the article and told him his dates jived. His answer was:

I am just happy to see Fung Chiu's name getting some attention. Fung Chiu was the 4th generations top fighter in Gu Lo and Fung Daat was regarded as the next best. When his unlce left it was Fung Chiu who he took with him. I wish more people got to see my sifu!

He didn't care that I double checked his dates! Why? Its no big deal IMO.

Peace,
Jim

Hendrik

10-26-2005, 10:14 AM

hendrik,
Has your practice of buddhism taught you nothing more than corny cliches and the improper use of regurgitated psychobabble as a smoke screen to hide from the truth. Fear is hiding behind one thousand names and 10,000 post, fear surrounds those that talk but don't walk and most certainly fear comes to the person that would rather go on vacation than answer the questions that is when fear comes in and you are obviously full of it.

Fear is never moving outside one's own house to face reality. There is already one White Crane masters that we know of that disagrees with you. Where are the White Crane masters that do support your theory and at what writings of theirs do you point to support your idea that all wing chun comes from Fujian White Crane.

Fear is the drive behind lunacy, where are all your thousand upon thousands of post in the Southern Kung Fu section of this forum discussing White Crane are you even aware there is a question about white crane just sitting there for a couple of weeks now. No, you are just content to bring all your White Crane talk to a Wing Chun forum in which you openly confekss not to practice.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38801

Fear consumes it keeps a person up all day and all night posting, changing names, moving from forum to forum repeating the same old story again and again leaving there practice of buddhism at the way side as they march toward a dead end path searching for that final elusive self congratulatory pat on the back that can never arrive.

hendrik stop telling the Yip Man family that you know their history better than them, stop telling TWC you know their history better than them, stop telling HFY, Weng Shun, Chi Sim Weng Chun, Ving Tsun, Pan Nam, Vietnam Wign Chun and all others that you know better than they how their history unfolded.

Never willing to accept the truth you fear you will always be a seller trapped in a buyers market. hendrik you know the questions now is the time to let go of your fear and answer them. Relax empower yourself with the answers and feel the liberation of your Qi as the burden of avoidance is lifted from your shoulders.

Hmm, how can I make a Loving Kindness communication instead of an attack reaction due to one's own thought?

1, Thank you for you opinions, I am sure I am be able to change to be better if what you said is true after I do a close examination. otherwise, still thanks for your opinions.

2, As for questions, you know, we all answer and ignore to answer question as we feel it is neccesary or not. That is just a nature.

3, Thank you again for your opinions. Hope that you understand you are an important person and your opinons are great input for me to improve.

BTW, NO ONE has to agree with what I post. It is my opinion or finding which I am sharing and I am not Telling anyone to have to follow me. Some might think it is great. Some might think it is ridiculous.

Apprecaited!

GhostDog68

10-26-2005, 10:15 AM

Hello William,
When Mr. Gee's Kung Fu bother showed up in San Fran did he demo his HFY for all? Did he mention they had a private school or were sharing their art with some friends or not? Please share with us other clubs or private individuals that are teaching HFY and where they can be located? Having more than one source for research is always the best for all this fun debating stuff!

First off, this is my first post here...and let me just say that this has been an enjoyable thread thus far and I've certainly come across some interesting thoughts and perspectives.

De re the Hung Fa Yi question that keeps coming up on this thread: I can see both sides of the coin for the most part, i.e. the validity of the claims of those who are skeptical of HFY's claims, as well as those of its defenders. More specifically, I can understand the HFY critics wanting to have more proof than just "Grandmaster Gee says so", while at the same time I can see why those in the HFY family think that his word is good enough for them [he wouldn't be lying to his own family members, right?]

HOWEVER, I would like to add to the questions that Jim asked of William earlier in the thread, which might serve to clarify at least some of the nagging questions people have had of it, and, if satisfactorily answered, might better enable one to determine the validity of GM Gee "inheriting it" rather than "making it up" as some maintain:

1. When did GM Gee "inherit" the system from Wang Ming? How old was he at the time and how long did he study under him?

2. Where is Wang Ming today? If he is still alive, does GM Gee still maintain contact with him?

3. Who were Wang Ming's other three HFY disciples, where are they, and what happened to them?

4. If he inherited it in the 1970s [or even the 1980s for that matter], why did he wait 10-20 years to reveal it? What was he doing/teaching during all that time in between?

5. Are there any other "photos" of Wang Ming besides the B&W sketch that the VT Museum routinely uses as "proof" of Wang Ming's existence?

Hendrik

10-26-2005, 10:43 AM

Pause time for entertainmen :D

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1807812170/trailer

click on--- it's about peace

Enjoy!

canglong

10-26-2005, 12:16 PM

originally posted by Jim R.
When Mr. Gee's Kung Fu bother showed up in San Fran did he demo his HFY for all? Did he mention they had a private school or were sharing their art with some friends or not? Please share with us other clubs or private individuals that are teaching HFY and where they can be located? Having more than one source for research is always the best for all this fun debating stuff!

Keith, Jim,
If this might be said a little more clearly let me try here. This is akin to walking around China asking someone to show you their Sifu’s birth certificate to which the reply would certainly be a look of dismay and disgust. You’re both on and on about personal matters on a public forum because you follow the lead of Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie and gang it’s the blind leading the blind. You ask why bring them up show me another group or association known for these egotistically motivated subversive tactics and we’ll include them as well because they and their ilk are the ones perpetuating this *******ized disrespectful, discord and malcontented western standard to an eastern kung fu culture which is rooted in a hierarchy of respect nurtured within Chinese philosophy and culture in the time and form of Confucianism until present.

Keith,
The only way to continue this conversation is after you show us your driver’s license, social security card, wedding license and birth certificate? Then after you do all that we can discuss the legitimacy and validity of your official record keeping. You are fundamentally wrong in assuming because information exist and you don’t have it then it must be secret or hidden from you. No one owes you anything and the answers that you receive here are probably more than some others would bother to waste their time with considering your propensity to rush to words of a derogatory nature. Sometimes it would be better if you just offered up a challenge as opposed to watering it down in the guise of a question.

originally posted by KPM
---Then produce it! Show it to the Wing Chun community! Why is it such a big secret?

This is exactly what Chango was trying to tell you but you either can’t or refuse to understand appointing yourself the center of the universe you are misguided because the only things we learn on this forum from statements like these are that you don’t have this information and asking for it on a public forum is no way of assuring yourself of ever getting this information.

What research are you talking about Jim? Is that the same type of research Rene is talking about on his “private mailing list” for denouncing sifu’s spreading rumor and gossip trying to play different factions of the martial arts community against one another, fictionalizing historical accounts and facts uncovered by others to mention a few. Stop hiding behind a public forum advocating things you would not do in person.

canglong

10-26-2005, 12:23 PM

originally posted by Jim R.
I am pretty in tune with Kiu Sao. I was a Jook Lum practitioner for a few years. Kiu Sao is common stuff among the Hard Bow/Bridge arts. Just like push hands is common among the Soft Bridge arts. You stated when you understand Kiu Sau you will see where Chi Sao comes from but you must start a thread and figure out which Chi Sao etc. and its properties. Thats another thread! Feel free to start it.
Jim.
You are more than welcome to come over to http://www.hfy108.com/ and discuss the topic of Kiu Sau in detail there are already several threads on this very topic. See ya there.

Jim Roselando

10-26-2005, 01:02 PM

T,

Keith, Jim,
If this might be said a little more clearly let me try here. This is akin to walking around China asking someone to show you their Sifu’s birth certificate to which the reply would certainly be a look of dismay and disgust. You’re both on and on about personal matters on a public forum because you follow the lead of Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie and gang it’s the blind leading the blind. You ask why bring them up show me another group or association known for these egotistically motivated subversive tactics and we’ll include them as well because they and their ilk are the ones perpetuating this *******ized disrespectful, discord and malcontented western standard to an eastern kung fu culture which is rooted in a hierarchy of respect nurtured within Chinese philosophy and culture in the time and form of Confucianism until present.

I am sorry my friends but every art has been discussed on public forums for years and the practitioners of the arts. None more so than YMWC, YKSWC, Pan Nam etc. etc. etc. If you think holding everyone to the same standard is rude then we think differently. If you noticed I never mentioned HFY in any of my posts as I was only debating the CK & BJ stuff. Once you started saying stuff like:

HFY is proof of this or that with regards to there possible being a CK & BJ well then that is where we need to find other sources for comparison. Sorry is that is rude! Look at your tone with Blind leading the Blind and "assuming" once again, seems to be something common for you, that I even speak with Robert or Rene even regularly. Secondly, I never asked Why you brought them up. Please go back and cut/paste anything I wrote about that.

What research are you talking about Jim? Is that the same type of research Rene is talking about on his “private mailing list” for denouncing sifu’s spreading rumor and gossip trying to play different factions of the martial arts community against one another, fictionalizing historical accounts and facts uncovered by others to mention a few. Stop hiding behind a public forum advocating things you would not do in person.

More hostility and Assumptions. Private Mailing List? ROFLMAO Please Tony. Find One, just One e-mail with me involved in any Private Mailing List. Tony! Try to stick with the subjects. You Assume that there is this grand scheme to change history by a select group of individuals. A cover up to hide the truth eh? Conspiracy theory! Interesting but I would prefer to debate over the possible more or less likely be it on the net or over tea etc...

Jim.
You are more than welcome to come over to http://www.hfy108.com/ and discuss the topic of Kiu Sau in detail there are already several threads on this very topic. See ya there.

As they are welcome to come here! 2 Forums are more than enough for me! Dont need another.

Lets try to get back on subject:

Cheung Ng? What did he teach?

A) Som Bai Fut base art of Weng Chun or

B)Siu Lin Tau base of Wing Chun?

If Som Bai Fut is the base of Weng Chun, and Weng Chun was on the Boat with other Crane guys. What component was added into todays Weng to create the Som Bai Fut base art versus the San Chin base art of other Weng Chun?

If Siu Lin Tau is the base of Wing Chun, and Wing Chun was on the Boat with other Crane guys. What component was added to create the Siu Lin Tau?

I am asking fair questions regarding Cheung Ng and Red Boat arts.

Peace,

Hendrik

10-26-2005, 01:24 PM

IMHO,

I think Keng Geng or Chuk Geng development will also aid the identifying the original Wing Chun development.

As I mention in my previous post in this discussion, we need different models to catagorized the ART components laterally or Vertically. So, with say the 3 level models or equivalent models, we can start to examine what is Keng Geng from each catagory or elements and then put them together. That way we have both the big picture and details about the subject, in this case the Keng Geng.

and from the components since the Kung Fu technology takes decades to evolve. we can trace and investigate which is the very likely mother art.

Certainly we might face different Keng Geng's since there is a possibilities that different type of power was used in the evolution since Red Boat era. IN that case, I propose to check it with SLT to see which type of Keng geng is most nature to SLT and making most sense.

Finally, I will even think a MIx-model between Shao Lin and White Crane Emei model might be possible. Since we can divide the time zone into many time zone...... May be the shao lin model is great for pre-Ng Mui and Miu Shun White Crane Emei model is good for Post burning of Shao Lin where the SLT created.......

Lots of things can be checked out to see if it make sense. Other then stuck with one and think that is the Truth.

Just some thoughts

Gary Collins

10-26-2005, 02:32 PM

Hello Everyone

My name is Gary. This is my first post on this forum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but ettiquette is important.

KPM said 'Garret Gee appears to have no Si Hings, no parallel lineages, no Sifu to referr to, etc'.

KPM does not know what he is talking about because he has no direct experience of being a member of the Hung Fa Yi Family under GM Gee. If folk are interested in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, go and experience it as opposed to speaking in that manner on an internet forum. The lack of this ettiquette can be compared with the reaction of a Yip Man Wing Chun Master I know who had never heard of, or seen, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun - the Master stated that he did not know about it, but wished to see it and talk about it. This Master had the ettiquette not to come out with a statement like KPM, and he had the brains to realise that the only way to gain understanding is through experience.

Hendrik needs to realise soemthing - everything he says is almost always followed by 'IMHO'. His opinion is only an opinion, and can never be any more. He should be speaking from experience instead. In relation to a comment where Tony stated that Hung Fa Yi has been passed down unchanged in over 300 years, Hendrik says 'I want to believe the roughly 300 years old unchanged' - believing is not any use. He must experience the system and then he will understand why Tony made that statement. I read the book MKF, and in the book the information was clearly presented which suggested this system can remain unchanged should it be passed from generation to generation. I believed the info, but I still wished to experience the system to see was this info correct. I asked permission to visit GM Gee and through my experience, I found that Tony's statement is correct. KPM should take note - I did not demand for proof, I didn't shout for Master Meng to prove this fact, or use the words 'Then produce it! Show it to the Wing Chun community!' - I respectfully asked permission to see the system, that's all. If Hendrik wants to believe, experience and an empty cup is all that is needed.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun has it's own history and lineage - I know this now from experience. I don't know it because I demanded it from anyone.
All Wing Chun lineages have their own histories and lineages. His lineage has it's own history, and no-one can question that, nor should they disrespect that. But Hendrik cannot apply that courtesy to the majority of Wing Chun. This is the where Hendrik is constantly letting himself down. This is the root of the problem. None of the Hung Fa Yi family have a problem with opinions on wether or not Hung Fa Yi looks like one group of arts as opposed to another, because we realise that is only a surface judgement based on what the eyes see - how may opinions, like Keith's, Hendrik's or JPM's are actually based on experience? Until experience is gained, try to maintain some ettiquette and respect the lineages and histories of all Wing Chun systems.

Cheerio, Gary

anerlich

10-26-2005, 03:41 PM

None of the Hung Fa Yi family have a problem with opinions on wether or not Hung Fa Yi looks like one group of arts as opposed to another

This must be a recent development, because there were a wealth of posts on this forum from a year or more back that contradict that assertion.

Hendrik

10-26-2005, 04:12 PM

Hello Everyone

My name is Gary. This is my first post on this forum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but ettiquette is important.

Hendrik needs to realise soemthing - everything he says is almost always followed by 'IMHO'. His opinion is only an opinion, and can never be any more. ..... try to maintain some ettiquette and respect the lineages and histories of all Wing Chun systems.

Cheerio, Gary

Gary,

Thank you and appreciate for you opinions.

True, My opinion is just an opinion; we are discussing and sharing view in this open forum.

You are right, maintaining some ettiquette and respect is important and it is a two way streets or mutual directional deal. So, May be you and I can start practicing ettiquette and respect here on?

Peace and Harmony

duende

10-26-2005, 04:30 PM

Whats the difference between the so-called looking Tan Sao shapes? Whats the energy behind the Tan Sao shape. What makes WCK Tan different from White Crane Water Hand or Jook Lum Chok Sao? What is the component that was added to whatever Southern Fist art to bring out the Soft Sensing Sticking?

I am pretty in tune with Kiu Sao. I was a Jook Lum practitioner for a few years. Kiu Sao is common stuff among the Hard Bow/Bridge arts. Just like push hands is common among the Soft Bridge arts. You stated when you understand Kiu Sau you will see where Chi Sao comes from but you must start a thread and figure out which Chi Sao etc. and its properties. Thats another thread! Feel free to start it.

Jim,

Intersting that you have Southern Preying Mantis experience...

check this out... I think you'll appreciate it.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=702

As far as energy understanding is concerned, it appears that we have two very different views. From my WC experience, there is no hard-vs-soft energy dichotomy. There is only energy and it is either "on' or "off". Both have sensitivity.

In regards to Tan Sau and Chi Sau... we probably have pretty different understandings as well. Tan Sau for is a bridging structure and is found in Kiu Sau as well as Chi Sau.

I realize there are many variations of WC, hell... I studied another system for many years.

Please tell us what Bai Jong is to you? Is it a structural pre-fighting posture? Is it a state of being? What is Bai Jong to you?

Bai Jong for us is the first phase of combat. Yes it is a pre-fighting structure and focusing of target, but that is only the beginning. In a nutshell it involves a series of drills and footwork that focus on maintaining A->B centerline energy and self-centerline control for 360 degree angles of attack. There is much more to it. On HFY108 it can be found under Bai Bot Bo Gin. You can also find out how it has it's roots in certain weapon in particular.

And to address Stonecrusher's question...

From my experience, once WC is mastered, it is your own. At advanced stages we focus on San Sau where you either own it or you don't. Hard structures are not so obvious and often tactically disguised.

Jim Roselando

10-27-2005, 07:31 AM

Jim,

Intersting that you have Southern Preying Mantis experience...

check this out... I think you'll appreciate it.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...=&threadid=702

I will check it out. Just out of curiosity do you realize Mantis was create in the early 1800's on the northern border of Fukien in Lung Foshan Mt region? Did you know that Mantis follows the same exact form numerology as the next door buddy Fukien Crane that has another 150 years of history more than Mantis? Where do you think Mantis was born from? Let me guess? Royal Family secret art! ;)

As far as energy understanding is concerned, it appears that we have two very different views. From my WC experience, there is no hard-vs-soft energy dichotomy. There is only energy and it is either "on' or "off". Both have sensitivity.

Glad you are stating your opinion on this publically. So, whats the difference between a So-Called Rou or within soft carries hard arts training for the body versus a Gong Hard Bow art and its training for the body? Would the Zheng Chi of say Yi Chuan or Taiji or Wing Chun be the same as Gum Gok (iron shirt) or Tiet Sein of Hung Gar type arts? I feel there is significant differences! But! Both can have certain types of sensativity yet totally different IMO.

In regards to Tan Sau and Chi Sau... we probably have pretty different understandings as well. Tan Sau for is a bridging structure and is found in Kiu Sau as well as Chi Sau.

I realize there are many variations of WC, hell... I studied another system for many years.

Did the other system do Luk Sao or what the old timers practice (circle hands).

Bai Jong for us is the first phase of combat. Yes it is a pre-fighting structure and focusing of target, but that is only the beginning. In a nutshell it involves a series of drills and footwork that focus on maintaining A->B centerline energy and self-centerline control for 360 degree angles of attack. There is much more to it. On HFY108 it can be found under Bai Bot Bo Gin. You can also find out how it has it's roots in certain weapon in particular.

Intersting. Stategy and techniques. I think a little different. Bai (assume) Zhuang (post). Zhuang is more in tune with Stillness and not things to think about. Kind a like Little Thoughts or Little Ideas or Little First Training. Less on the mind the better. Less on the mind one can accept more and be in tune with it. Less leads towards the Alive or Now.

Thanks for the Chat!

Peace,

Jim Roselando

10-27-2005, 07:50 AM

Duende,

I went in and read the info. from Blanco. That info has been around for a long time. Its a compiled work or collection from numerous sources. Much of it comes from my old Sifu's work and web site. If memory serves me correctly I believe Mr. Blanco was also asked at one point to give credit to the source of the info., remove it or something like that by Mr. Hagood. Sifu was also clear to point out that it was a compiled theory with some facts and some fiction to try to piece it all together.

Ok! Lets just forget the desired histories for a moment. If we want to discuss Mantis then I only will ask ONE questions and look forward to your reply to start:

1) Please show all of us just "ONE" Chu Gar lineage that does not come from Lau Soi?

Many thanks,

duende

10-27-2005, 09:06 AM

Glad you are stating your opinion on this publically. So, whats the difference between a So-Called Rou or within soft carries hard arts training for the body versus a Gong Hard Bow art and its training for the body? Would the Zheng Chi of say Yi Chuan or Taiji or Wing Chun be the same as Gum Gok (iron shirt) or Tiet Sein of Hung Gar type arts? I feel there is significant differences! But! Both can have certain types of sensativity yet totally different IMO.

People can have their generalizations of Wudan being soft, and Shaolin being hard. I'm not going there. 18 point breathing Iron Shirt Chi Gong is in our cirricullum however.

Intersting. Stategy and techniques. I think a little different. Bai (assume) Zhuang (post). Zhuang is more in tune with Stillness and not things to think about. Kind a like Little Thoughts or Little Ideas or Little First Training. Less on the mind the better. Less on the mind one can accept more and be in tune with it. Less leads towards the Alive or Now.

Knowing and thinking are two very different things. LONG LONG LONG before Hendrik went on his somewhat recent "awareness" trip, we have been stating the concept of Saam Mo Kiu. Wandering, Awareness, Focus. The nature of fighting is random. Bai Jong is about knowing yourself and knowing your opponant the best you can and stacking the cards in your favor. It's also about knowing how to maintain a target.

I've come across a few WC lineages that don't put much stock in Bai Jong. That's their loss IMO.

duende

10-27-2005, 09:25 AM

Jim Roselando

10-27-2005, 10:30 AM

Hello,

People can have their generalizations of Wudan being soft, and Shaolin being hard. I'm not going there. 18 point breathing Iron Shirt Chi Gong is in our cirricullum however

There is no need for generalizations. Arts have their training and most arts can be classified. 18 Point Iron Shirt? Is that a Rou method of cultiavtion or a Gong? Do the Rou arts use the Iron Shirt? According to legend ;) the Wing Chun arts Chuk/Keng Geng power was able to (I will us the common term) "Break" the vest. This would lead us back to the discussion of what type of Geng is WCK? Also, would a reasonably light and sensative art/body not position itself differently from the harder ways protecting the body?

Knowing and thinking are two very different things. LONG LONG LONG before Hendrik went on his somewhat recent "awareness" trip, we have been stating the concept of Saam Mo Kiu. Wandering, Awareness, Focus. The nature of fighting is random. Bai Jong is about knowing yourself and knowing your opponant the best you can and stacking the cards in your favor. It's also about knowing how to maintain a target.

I dont know amigo. Awareness is just awareness. If your awareness is sharp, and that begins when the Master is home, the Pre-Arranged worry about yourself, your opponent and focus on a target is just way too much to think about for me. hehehe We need to leave that stuff and try to go to the feeling and energy domain. Shape is no longer! Why? Water has no shape. Nature is always evolving. For me, part of the so-called original idea of WCK & SLT (not the names or techniques :eek: ) was a Rou system of cultivation that takes the body thru a process which brings one back to a natural state of being. For it to be considerred Natural for this so-called soft art we have to allow the art to transform our bodies not to Iron but Water. This would have to require to body to function differently. Central or Dynamic Equilbrium (Taiji calls it Zong Ding) via 6D. Much different from the wider YJKYM and the = shoulder Zheng Chi Natural horse. We have two totally different theories of WCK! Which is cool! Its fun to debate! I think when people play with this stuff you see its different and not concerned with maintaining "a" target which is 1D tunnel vision to me. What is the nature of Wing Chun?

I've come across a few WC lineages that don't put much stock in Bai Jong. That's their loss IMO.

Maybe not? As long as what we all do works for us and makes us happy then its all good! :)

Peace,

Hendrik

10-27-2005, 11:29 AM

Jim,

Great post!

Just to share something about Awareness.

Thus, I have heard about the cultivation of Samadhi or Awareness cultivation.

There are 4 mind/body/breathing states before attaining the first Dyana state. Where there is 4 Dyana states.

the first two states are the states of Settle.
They are the Coarse Thoughts settle and then the Fine Thoughts settle states

Then, advance to

The second two states which is the state of stability
They are the Desire Realm Stability and Pre-Ground or Pre-Dyana states

Then, after that one enter into the First Dyana state and keep advancing with one's Awareness expand and deeper.....

Thus, I have heard,

The trap here is that we ordinary people mistaken the Thoughts speculation as the IT. Well, it is not. Thus, I have heard, at the Coarse Thought Settle state or the first state, one has already aware of the existance of something else beyond thoughts. Because at this state, one drop the thoughts and also one is getting back to the Nature Lower Abdoment breathing. There the Dan Dien start heating or the phenomenon of Jing and or Qi ( as Jing Qi Shen) surfaces. Or the Kundalini starts.....

Now, this state can be attain only if the Nature Lower Adboment breathing was practiced and master to a certain degree.

Thus, I have heard,
There is NO formular to follow because it doesnt need. It is about Going back to the Nature and droping Thoughts... it is about allowing the Master to come home or in a western sense Going back to God. and Zhen Qi can be seen as the Grace ... but one has to communion with God to feel that. And one has to quiet down one's thoughts to silence to hear "God's voice" or the inner voice.

Awareness is not Yee is Cheh.
Shen is the lifeliness and fullness of Attention. One needs to settle one's Shen to travel the path of Awareness.

When one travel this path, then "God" or Dao or Nature or Buddha Nature becomes the center or the master of one. That is Settling one's Shen. Otherwise, one is still using Thoughts as the center or the master. and thus, one stuck and not able to access the Zhen Qi or Grace or Prana or Peace or Now but stuck in Duality or the projection of future via the past .......

What can help us to live through the Fear ? Thus, I have heard, welcome the Dao, God, Buddha Nature, Nature to be the master or the center.

This is where the major different between White Crane + Emei = SLt model and the Shao Lin model; in this model one needs to center with Nature, or Yee Ren Zhee Ran, or spontaneously surf on the Nature, or return to origine or Kui Yuan (as in Shan hei Kui Yuan or the kidney Qi return to origine). There is no programing. and there is no needed for 300 years of unchanges. It is water. it changes every instant.

Since in Zen it said, one never steps the same flowing water twice. Thus, this model settle itself in the everlasting flow of changes. We dont make anything. or Train anything , we undo things and eliminate the unneccesary things/habit... and let the nature surface instead. it is Zen teaching about let go the attachment or our habit and living in Now. IMHO

So, we rest , settle, Stabilized, one with... the source of Changes /Now and from Now we cultivate our Kung Fu, IMHO, that is the teaching of SLT.

Just some thus I have heard to share. I think this is another part of SLT which was not mention or explored enough by us modern human.

How everything will come into one, IMHHHHHHHHO, one has to ask is one Nature center or Thoughts center. Then, going through asking the question is one Nature lower abdorment breathing or chest breathing. When the "Center" and breathing Settle then the following training can be practiced otherwise we have no based of foundation. IMHHHHHHO. There is how the Kung Fu journey started.

It is true, one has to experience to know it. Howeve, what one experience can be address in details and clarity too. otherwise, it is just a generalization. As the above, we need to know which state one is in out of the 4 begining states. Is it a Settling State? Stability state?... and the specific.

I bring this up so that for those who is interested be able to know, Yes, there is a Technology traveling into deep within but we are not having those kung fu as the ancestors.... we need to probe in more.....

It doesnt matter if it is the Marvallous Tan of Tan Sau Ng or the internal Alchemy of Miu Shun. Those are just labels and names and sometimes lots of EGO. When we speak about Original of WCK, we needs the details and the sequencial States and the procedure. IMHHO, it is not enough to hand waving . Can one even enter into Nature Lower abdoment breathing to start with to bring benifit in mind/body.... if we cant the rest is not attainable.... IMHHO. Not an easy subject very certainly. How can we drop our Ego and discuss about this stuffs is very critical and it take lots and lots of practice towards just to stable with the nature as the center. IMHHHHHHO.

We need to know that technology to help others and ourself to do good.

anerlich

10-27-2005, 04:49 PM

Jim,

I too have heard of WC jings and certain combination methods being able to "break" the vest.

I also come back to the old maxim, which I can't remember exactly, "iron arms. glass head, bean curd body", but I was told by someone with impeccable credentials that this does not mean to treat the body as a fragile structure which will be turned to mush at the slightest blow. Rather that it be flexible, pliable, moving to absorb incoming force without taking damage. Like water, to use ytour analogy, rather than like iron. The breath is very important to facilitate these qualities, but not in the same way as iron shirt.

Tony Jacobs once won a $5 bet over either his inablity to explain, or my inability to absorb his, er. explanations, of how Saam Mo Kiu becomes the base of HFY fighting concepts and techniques. I don't begrudge Tony this grand sum, I got the feeling fortune smiled on him rarely at the time.

I read the relevant MKF passages several times, "searching for the bridge", without success. I still see only grand assertions remaining insubstantial. I hope ot have my skepticism shattered one day, but I can't see that day being close.

Gary Collins' point about going to visit the source is valid, but as I live in Australia, geography, economics, and lack of anything more than a mild interest conspire to make that unfeasible. Plus I'd feel about the same level of comfort fronting up there as I would walking up the gangplank of a Scientology mothership. His point about ettiquette is also well taken, it's a pity that whoever wrote the passages in MKF bashing "unqualified internet historians" appeared to ignore it.

It's also really disappointing to see Benny Meng trashing Rene's new book on his forum, and junior cultists like Tony rushing to the thread to see whose nose can get brownest quickest.

You Assume that there is this grand scheme to change history by a select group of individuals.

If there is, its website is hfy108.com.

Hendrik

10-27-2005, 07:54 PM

According to legend ;) the Wing Chun arts Chuk/Keng Geng power was able to (I will us the common term) "Break" the vest. This would lead us back to the discussion of what type of Geng is WCK? ----Jim

Jim,

speaking about the tool to "break" the vest, that is hidden in SLT.

according to Legend said, the hit landed in front but will cause damage on the back...
weapon is always Not a nice stuff to place in our mind.

It is a "tool" the creator pick up from the Emei 12 Zhuang. That tool can be verified. IMHO.

duende

10-27-2005, 11:15 PM

Anerlich,

I really could care less about Rene's work of fiction, but let's be real here... Benny was NOT "bashing" Rene's book. He actually brings up some valid questions. Especially considering Rene's past MA history... like it or not.

btw..

when did you get so sensitive.

As far as Saam Mo Kiu is concerned, I think you've read enough about it from mine and other's past posts here on KFO. Hell if Hendrik has gotten as much as he has to rip off, I figure you should have at least soaked something up.

Jim Roselando

10-28-2005, 04:50 AM

Anerlich,

Thanks for posting!

Jim,

I too have heard of WC jings and certain combination methods being able to "break" the vest.

:)

I also come back to the old maxim, which I can't remember exactly, "iron arms. glass head, bean curd body", but I was told by someone with impeccable credentials that this does not mean to treat the body as a fragile structure which will be turned to mush at the slightest blow. Rather that it be flexible, pliable, moving to absorb incoming force without taking damage. Like water, to use ytour analogy, rather than like iron. The breath is very important to facilitate these qualities, but not in the same way as iron shirt.

I totally agree with you! While the body is trained thru the softness it still produces great flexible frame. I think tho because of the build we use different methods than the so-called harder or San Chin type approach with crash power exchange.

My take on the Tofu Body, Iron Bridge goes back to the Rou training of Wing Chun and not the Iron Shirt method. The frame is still strong and flexible where as the outer layer is relaxed. On the inside the Chi eventually begins packing the bones causing a different density to them. Some call it; Tiger Bone but its real simple as it happens naturally and gradually a little bit more every year. I heard Taiji call it: Essential Hardness of the Bones thru Softness. So, as you said, the breath is very important to facilitate these qualities, Natural! Nothing forced which is cool!

Tony Jacobs once won a $5 bet over either his inablity to explain, or my inability to absorb his, er. explanations, of how Saam Mo Kiu becomes the base of HFY fighting concepts and techniques. I don't begrudge Tony this grand sum, I got the feeling fortune smiled on him rarely at the time.

I read the relevant MKF passages several times, "searching for the bridge", without success. I still see only grand assertions remaining insubstantial. I hope ot have my skepticism shattered one day, but I can't see that day being close.

Gary Collins' point about going to visit the source is valid, but as I live in Australia, geography, economics, and lack of anything more than a mild interest conspire to make that unfeasible. Plus I'd feel about the same level of comfort fronting up there as I would walking up the gangplank of a Scientology mothership. His point about ettiquette is also well taken, it's a pity that whoever wrote the passages in MKF bashing "unqualified internet historians" appeared to ignore it.

It's also really disappointing to see Benny Meng trashing Rene's new book on his forum, and junior cultists like Tony rushing to the thread to see whose nose can get brownest quickest.

Quote:
You Assume that there is this grand scheme to change history by a select group of individuals.

If there is, its website is hfy108.com.

I appreciate your posting!

Thanks,

CFT

10-28-2005, 06:04 AM

According to legend ;) the Wing Chun arts Chuk/Keng Geng power was able to (I will us the common term) "Break" the vest. This would lead us back to the discussion of what type of Geng is WCK?Hey Jim,

Have you seen the film "Warriors Two"? The "story" of Leung Jan and Chan Wah Sun. There is a scene where Leung Jan describes Wing Chun power coming from the combination of chuen (inch) ging and geng (frightened) ging. The geng ging was demonstrated by LJ poking CWS in the back with a needle.

I wonder who the film makers consulted for this picture of WCK power? My take of this explanation is that this "relaxed" reactionary power expressed at short distance is the basis of WCK power.

In another scene LJ describes to CWS how to break the Iron Shirt kung fu. Iron Shirt is predicated on the breath, might be chi - I think it is body conditioning plus breathing plus tension at the right time. Anyway, LJ says to use WCK power (chuen + geng) to break the breath - thus the body is just a collection of vulnerablities to attack.

Nice fiction with a smattering of credible ideas. Pretty sweet how they worked some WCK stories into the storyline.

Hendrik

10-28-2005, 10:31 AM

Interesting topic! :D
Here is my IMHHHHHHO :D

Have you seen the film "Warriors Two"? The "story" of Leung Jan and Chan Wah Sun. There is a scene where Leung Jan describes Wing Chun power coming from the combination of chuen (inch) ging and geng (frightened) ging. The geng ging was demonstrated by LJ poking CWS in the back with a needle.

I wonder who the film makers consulted for this picture of WCK power? My take of this explanation is that this "relaxed" reactionary power expressed at short distance is the basis of WCK power.-----------

IMHHHHHHHHO, Thus, I have heard, The Movies stuffs doesnt work.

The Geng illustrated via the LJ poking CWS in the back with a needle will not have the jump or frigthened reaction with the one who is cultivating Nature Lower Abdorment breathing with the attainment in settling and stability.

This type of Geng or stunt will result when one is using Chest breathing and tense up. This type of Geng is not that usefull because it stop breathing and damage oneself. This taken a breath, tensing the Chest (even unconsciouly) stop breathing and ... is what the damaging body type which WXZ talked about .

Geng keng IMHO is about the opponent was Stunt or caught in suprise because the opponent didnt expect the force appear. Geng Keng is not about oneself has to be stunt to deliver the power. One is very calm when this power is issue because it is about nature flow.

IMHO, there are lots of signature for us to know what is likely or not likely based on solid indication.

In another scene LJ describes to CWS how to break the Iron Shirt kung fu. Iron Shirt is predicated on the breath, might be chi - I think it is body conditioning plus breathing plus tension at the right time. Anyway, LJ says to use WCK power (chuen + geng) to break the breath - thus the body is just a collection of vulnerablities to attack. ---------

IMHHHO

Thus, I have heard.

Iron shirt is not that predicated on the breath.... you will wonder how strong the iron vest can be. Hard Bow kung is no Joking.

The above stunt type power cannot break the Iron shirt. It simply doesnt have enough density and or accelaration .

One of the flaw of Iron Shirt is in its set up time delay. So, WCK's Short power has to be able to slip before the Iron shirt's set up time or right after the withdraw. another will be using super laser beam density jing to penetrate it, but that is competing who has more deep kung fu. another is .......etc and one has to go to the third level of the 3 level model to get there..... IMHO

As for--
LJ says to use WCK power (chuen + geng) to break the breath -. Unil we know our own breath we have no idea what is breath and how to break it or what to break?

just some thoughts. Dont take me serious!

Train

10-28-2005, 01:45 PM

I read the relevant MKF passages several times, "searching for the bridge", without success. I still see only grand assertions remaining insubstantial. I hope ot have my skepticism shattered one day, but I can't see that day being close.

Gary Collins' point about going to visit the source is valid, but as I live in Australia, geography, economics, and lack of anything more than a mild interest conspire to make that unfeasible. Plus I'd feel about the same level of comfort fronting up there as I would walking up the gangplank of a Scientology mothership. His point about ettiquette is also well taken, it's a pity that whoever wrote the passages in MKF bashing "unqualified internet historians" appeared to ignore it.

It's also really disappointing to see Benny Meng trashing Rene's new book on his forum, and junior cultists like Tony rushing to the thread to see whose nose can get brownest quickest.

Hey!! Wait a minute here! Pls don't judge what you do not understand about HFY. Just becuase you do not get along with somepeople on the internet doesnt give you the right to insult the system. Have you had any experience at all with the system? I'm sure you havnt. So pls, have more kung fu ettiquette.

I "could" say that Goo Lo wing chun looks like a simplified form of YM wing chun just by observing it and reading about it on the net but i'm not going there. I know there's more to GLWC but I hope to have my skepticism shattered one day, but I can't see that day being close.

You guys stick to your history others will stick to theirs! Agreed!

Peace

CFT

10-28-2005, 03:26 PM

just some thoughts. Dont take me serious!Hendrik, movie physics ==pffft==

Just a good base for discussion. Thanks for the extra ideas.

Firehawk4

10-28-2005, 05:27 PM

anerlich

10-28-2005, 06:48 PM

Pls don't judge what you do not understand about HFY. Just becuase you do not get along with somepeople on the internet doesnt give you the right to insult the system.

I am criticising claims made by individuals which have neither justification nor have been adequately explained.

I have never insulted HFY or Garrett Gee, unless you equate asking pointed questions and critical thinking with insults. I posted a mostly positive review on MKF when it was first released, though I did mention that I felt the book had certain flaws, mostly to do with the denigration of certain individuals and other WC systems which you seem to be upset about.

I *am* insulting certain individuals whose jealousy and denigration of the sincere efforts of others is manifest on the "other" forum.

Don't like it? Too bad for you, I guess.

I "could" say that Goo Lo wing chun looks like a simplified form of YM wing chun just by observing it and reading about it on the net but i'm not going there.

I guess you could do that, though why you think I would care either way escapes me.

Hendrik

10-28-2005, 08:08 PM

Why does Wing Chun do not have the Gengs like Ngo Cho Kun , Southern Mantis, Fukien White Crane , Such as swallow ,spit ,sink , I only know of two wing chun systems that have these concepts Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun .

Perhaps you didnt have access to other lineages in depth such as Yik Kam or Koo Loo .. or you didnt look far enough?

WCK does not do Gengs like NGo Cho Kuen because WCK is WCK and WCK's uniqueness is Rou Jing, NOt Gong or hard Gengs.

Since Jim knows both Southern Mantis and WCK, he might be able to tell you more.

In Miu Shun's SLT which passed down by Yik Kam to Cho family,
There are swallow, spit, Sink, and float very specifically.

There even including --Open Close Decline Raise -- the four keys of internal alchemy, in addition to Swallow Spit Sink and Float . These Keys are adapted from Emei 12 zhuang for cultivate the Zhen Qi , Jing (power) and settling/Stable the mind/body/Qi/breathing and other applications.

So, in 1800's we knows SLT has 4 more components --- Open Close Decline Raise -- more then the White Crane of Fujian's Swallow Spit Sink and Float which is used as how the spider makes it web. Thus, SLT has evolved from White CRane of Fujian. With the 4 more keys SLT does things different then just the Swallow Spit sink and float.

IE: read how Jim reply to Duende about Jing above.

Again, these components shows the influence of Emei 12 Zhuang. And indeed some stanzas of Miu Shun's SLT kuen Kuit is similar to the Emei 12 zhuang's.

Since you bring up the Geng,
A few questions arise, and that is

From the perspective of either Shao Lin Theory or the White Crane from Fujian + Emei 12 zhuang theory

What is the WCK's unique Keng Geng is ?
how do one generate Keng Geng?
what is required to issue Keng Geng ?
what is the elements needed to be condition?
How is the breath flow needs to be?
How is Zhen Qi interact or no inte-re-act with the power generation?

These questions might be the questions the next generation needs to answer. because for any theory to be complete , it will need to answer this part of questions.

Do we have the answer now? then?

Firehawk4

10-28-2005, 09:21 PM

So comparing Ngo Cho Kun and Southern Mantis to Wing Chun is not the thing to do as far as types of geng go ? And only certian Wing Chun lineages use spit , Swallow , sink , float , and that the way use them is different in Wing Chun than in Ngo Cho Kun or Southern Mantis . Now i understand .

Hendrik

10-28-2005, 09:47 PM

So comparing Ngo Cho Kun and Southern Mantis to Wing Chun is not the thing to do as far as types of geng go ? --------

imho, one can always compare. however one needs to know what is the comparison is about.

And only certian Wing Chun lineages use spit , Swallow , sink , float ,--------

imho, this is a too generalization statement. because even within the same family things can be represent differently due to localization evolution. one needs to set a time zone such as what happen in 1850 or 2005..etc to compare. as i mention above in 1800 we know there are 8 keys in slt instead of 4 for yik kam lineage. so, how is other lineages at that time? research has to be done. cant just use today's view and compare things.

btw, lineage means one has a process that is producing outcome repeatably instead of just stories telling. imho

and one must asked the question, what is sink? float? is sink kaam sau is float tok sau? or it is something else? what is it? that needs to be clearly define.

now, in the previous post you make a claim that ---- I only know of two wing chun systems that have these concepts Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun . may be you want to define what is that float, sink,spit, ...ect compare with the white crane or mantis.... are they the same? different?...etcc

and that the way use them is different in Wing Chun than in Ngo Cho Kun or Southern Mantis . Now i understand ----------

all style must has uniqueness. otherwise, no reason to start a new style isnt it?

Wayfaring

10-29-2005, 01:33 PM

I have never insulted HFY or Garrett Gee, unless you equate asking pointed questions and critical thinking with insults. I posted a mostly positive review on MKF when it was first released, though I did mention that I felt the book had certain flaws, mostly to do with the denigration of certain individuals and other WC systems which you seem to be upset about.

It's good you're not insulting HFY or GM Garrett Gee, because he is a national treasure in more than one country. If you actually took the time to visit his kwoon in SF you'd find more depth in a couple classes than you'd find in a year of training in many other places.

Best of wishes to Rene in his fictional novel. As fiction, the author is free to stay as close or as far from historical facts as he desires to weave a good story. A good fictional story is better than no story, and infinitely better than much of the stuff you read around here which also is fiction but made up to look like a PhD factual thesis.

Train

10-29-2005, 06:25 PM

Actually I was quoting Jim R.

Peace!!

anerlich

10-29-2005, 07:14 PM

If you actually took the time to visit his kwoon in SF you'd find more depth in a couple classes than you'd find in a year of training in many other places.

Dare I say most people on this forum would say the same about the heads of their own lineages, with equal conviction and in most cases, equal validity.

he is a national treasure in more than one country
Not to say he is not a treasure and icon of HFY Wing Chun, but "national treasure"? Belief in one's sijou or sigung is admirable, unbridled hyperbole is not. Stick to facts if you wish to be taken seriously and avoid derision.

The only nations that appoint "national living treasures", according to Google, seem to be Australia, Japan, and the Cherokee nation. There may be some others on the 11th or 46th page of Google listings, but I didn't read that far. I couldn't get a match on "national treasure" and "Garrett Gee."

At least you didn't call him a "Master of Almightiness." (Not a suggestion, BTW)

Wayfaring

10-29-2005, 09:39 PM

Not to say he is not a treasure and icon of HFY Wing Chun, but "national treasure"? Belief in one's sijou or sigung is admirable, unbridled hyperbole is not. Stick to facts if you wish to be taken seriously and avoid derision.

The only nations that appoint "national living treasures", according to Google, seem to be Australia, Japan, and the Cherokee nation. There may be some others on the 11th or 46th page of Google listings, but I didn't read that far. I couldn't get a match on "national treasure" and "Garrett Gee."

At least you didn't call him a "Master of Almightiness." (Not a suggestion, BTW)

Whatever, anerlich. You really aren't one to be talking about sticking to facts. And you'd probably deride me anyway. You're just getting huffy about Rene because he lets you write articles on his website.

Oh and speaking of sticking to facts - whooeeeee!!!! We have a man who can do a Google search. The results there MUST be fact. Maybe you can publish that as an article on Rene's website. Oh, and as a side note, Australia's "National Living Treasures" consist of a list including Russell Crowe, Nicole Kidman, and Dr. named Fiona. That's what I would call ironic hyperbole. Maybe the Koala brothers will make it in the next few years.

Until you've gone and experienced it yourself there is no way you can even have an opinion on whether what I stated as opinion is belief, unbridled hyperbole, or a detached observation. At the very least, GM Gee is in a category of WC lineage holders that do not descend from Yip Man, which is a rarity. How much more than that is for me to know and for you it seems to scoff at.

Meanwhile I'll be sitting around waiting up nights worrying whether or not you take me seriously.

anerlich

10-29-2005, 10:04 PM

Meanwhile I'll be sitting around waiting up nights worrying whether or not you take me seriously.

Whatever gets you through the night, I guess. Just assume I don't if that will stop you worrying.

So Garret Gee is a national treasure, but now you're deriding (that word again!) the notion of a national treasure?

I thought I had some minor talent for derision, but you've managed in one post to do the job on me, Rene, Russell Crowe, Nicole Kidman, Dr Fiona Wood, Google, national living treasures everywhere ... did I miss anyone? Wait, the Koala Brothers (who are they?) and, indirectly, Australia as a whole.

Good attempt, but .... FOCUS, man, FOCUS! The shotgun approach is for amateurs.

BTW, glad you too can use a search engine, but Dr Fiona's no overrated celebrity:

http://www.australianoftheyear.gov.au/bio.asp?pID=214

I guess this thread has outlived it's usefulness, perhaps ninefold, like a cat.

KPM

10-30-2005, 06:24 AM

---OK. I said I was done with this thread...and I am. But since I was so directly addressed I feel compelled to respond. :rolleyes:

My name is Gary. This is my first post on this forum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but ettiquette is important.

---Welcome Gary! Ettiquette on the forum itself is important as well. Sometimes people get far to emotional.

KPM said 'Garret Gee appears to have no Si Hings, no parallel lineages, no Sifu to referr to, etc'. KPM does not know what he is talking about because he has no direct experience of being a member of the Hung Fa Yi Family under GM Gee.

---Ah! So you agree with the cultist mentality that "if you are not of the inner circle you have no right to know!"? :p Its funny, the idea of Si Hings, parallel lineages and Sifu's is openly discussed on the forums with regards to lineages like Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Ku Lo, Pan Nam, etc......but but it becomes bad ettiquette to ask the same questions about HFY and Garret Gee. I find that curious. Want to talk about Chan Wah Shun teaching Yip Man, and Yip Man's Si Hings like Ng Chun So?.....No problem! Want to talk about Pan Nam's teachers?....No problem! Want to talk about Yuen Kay Shan teaching Sum Nung...or the parallel lineage through Mai Gei Wong....No problem! But bring up similar questions about HFY and Garret Gee and see the emotional responses you get! Very curious!

This Master had the ettiquette not to come out with a statement like KPM, and he had the brains to realise that the only way to gain understanding is through experience.

---So now I am rude and also have no brains! :p Many members of the HFY family have posted in numerous internet forums about their art and its teachings. There are many ways to gain understanding. By experience certainly, but also by discussion, debate, and asking/answering questions. Why would all those HFY family members (or members of any other lineage for that matter) bother to post in a public forum unless it is to both share and gain some measure of understanding? The questions that have been asked....about lineage and history can be answered in a forum such as this. They do not require any "hands on" experience. If "hands on" experience were required to gain an understanding of world history, then we would be in trouble since many cultures disappeared generations ago! :eek:

I read the book MKF, and in the book the information was clearly presented which suggested this system can remain unchanged should it be passed from generation to generation. I believed the info, but I still wished to experience the system to see was this info correct. I asked permission to visit GM Gee and through my experience, I found that Tony's statement is correct.

---Really!? What flavor was the kool aide they had you drink? :p So you believe that what is being taught as HFY today remains unchanged from what it was 300 years ago as Tony suggested? Did you think to ask them why they use terminology known to be unique to Yip Man? Did you think to ask them why they are using english technical terms from physics that were unknown concepts 300 years ago in China? Did you think to ask how they came by the Luk Sao rolling platform of Chi Sau which was developed by Yuen Kay Shan with help in the refining process by Yip Man? So you also believe that HFY is the original and pure Wing Chun and everything else is "popular Wing Chun" (which is just a new twist on the old "traditional" vs. "modified" debate)?

KPM should take note - I did not demand for proof, I didn't shout for Master Meng to prove this fact, or use the words 'Then produce it! Show it to the Wing Chun community!' - I respectfully asked permission to see the system, that's all.

---Wow! And you became convinced that HFY is the true Wing Chun from Shaolin unchanged for 300 years just upon seeing it one time? That's pretty impressive.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun has it's own history and lineage - I know this now from experience. I don't know it because I demanded it from anyone.

---Every art has its own history and lineage, that isn't the issue. Its the sweeping unsubstantiated claims that are at issue. Did you see a photo of Garret Gee training with his Sifu? Or just the artist rendition that is reproduced in MKF?

His lineage has it's own history, and no-one can question that, nor should they disrespect that.

---Please realize how marketing mentality can differ. In the west calling something "new and improved" and discussing how it has evolved and changed to suit the times is the main marketing strategy. In the east calling something "ancient and traditional" and discussing how it has remained unchanged is the main marketing strategy. Let's say if I go out tomorrow and create my own version of Wing Chun, come up with its own history of how I made a trip back to china and learned it from an aging hermit monk in a mountain temple who had learned it from another monk in descent from Jim Sim after he fled the burning of the temple, no one should question that? If I start to talk about how my method is superior to everyone else's method because these other methods have been altered by contact with the west, no one should question that? Now lets say I develop a large number of followers who endorse me on the internet and get emotional on anyone who does dare to question my story, should I call that disrespect? Don't get me wrong....I'm not saying that this is what has happened with Garret Gee and HFY, I'm just trying to make the point that no one should be above simple questioning and inquiry when they are asked to substantiate or support their claims.

None of the Hung Fa Yi family have a problem with opinions on wether or not Hung Fa Yi looks like one group of arts as opposed to another, because we realise that is only a surface judgement based on what the eyes see

---You really think so? :rolleyes: Perhaps you should go back and do a search on this very forum! ;)

Keith

duende

10-30-2005, 10:48 AM

So you believe that what is being taught as HFY today remains unchanged from what it was 300 years ago as Tony suggested?

Keith,

This is not hard to understand if you take into account that the WC formula is consistant throughout our system. Every part of our learning progression... be it the dummy, the poles, SLT/SNT, CK, KIU SAU, CHI KIU, CHI SAU... it all follows the formula as far as body structure... or what we refer to as Sap Ming Dim (10 bright points).

Does your tan in your SLT have the same structure as your Tan in your dummy form?? Often from my experiences with other lineages, this is not the case.

Did you think to ask them why they use terminology known to be unique to Yip Man?

What terms are you referring too?? I've studied YM and yes we use some of the same terms... Tan Bong Fook etc... Heck, we are all talking about WC. There are many terms that we do not share with any other lineages. And there are terms that we share with some lineages and not others.

Also, as we have taken in students from other lineages (myself included) sometimes they/we have inadvertantly used our past terminology to reference something in our current lineage.

Did you think to ask them why they are using english technical terms from physics that were unknown concepts 300 years ago in China?

English terms?? Of course the "english terms" were not used. However the concepts of Time, Space and Energy are throughout Buddism and Taoism philosphy way earlier than 300 years ago.

Did you think to ask how they came by the Luk Sao rolling platform of Chi Sau which was developed by Yuen Kay Shan with help in the refining process by Yip Man?

The only thing that I know we share with YKS is the notion that Chi Sau is for advanced students and taught later in the system. Our "rolling platform" begins with Kiu Sau rolling. Then we have Chi Kiu Rolling. Then Chi Sau rolling. For beginners we have reference point Dan Chi Sau so that they can get Sap Ming Dim into their arms. We also have Jung Sin Chi Sau which may have been referred to as Luk Sau just in order to use a more commonly known term that students from other lineages could understand at a seminar... but that's it.

BTW... Maybe YKS has some special "LUK SAU" training method... I don't know. But I do know that the Luk Sau I did in YM was not very particular at all. Also... Rolling Hands is found in many other systems besides WC...

On a final note.... which may help clarify to you how different our Chi Sau is. In HFY, Chi Sau is not thought of ONLY as a sensitivity training method. Along with Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu, CHi Sau has it's very own fighting identity with it's own timeframe and unique range positioning.

So you also believe that HFY is the original and pure Wing Chun and everything else is "popular Wing Chun" (which is just a new twist on the old "traditional" vs. "modified" debate)?

This is the VTM's current theory based upon years of research. Talk to them if you want the full rundown. As neither I nor Gary (as far as I know) is a member of the VTM.

canglong

10-30-2005, 12:44 PM

originally posted by KPM
---Please realize how marketing mentality can differ. In the west calling something "new and improved" and discussing how it has evolved and changed to suit the times is the main marketing strategy. In the east calling something "ancient and traditional" and discussing how it has remained unchanged is the main marketing strategy. Let's say if I go out tomorrow and create my own version of Wing Chun, come up with its own history of how I made a trip back to china and learned it from an aging hermit monk in a mountain temple who had learned it from another monk in descent from Jim Sim after he fled the burning of the temple, no one should question that? If I start to talk about how my method is superior to everyone else's method because these other methods have been altered by contact with the west, no one should question that? Now lets say I develop a large number of followers who endorse me on the internet and get emotional on anyone who does dare to question my story, should I call that disrespect? Don't get me wrong....I'm not saying that this is what has happened with Garret Gee and HFY, I'm just trying to make the point that no one should be above simple questioning and inquiry when they are asked to substantiate or support their claims.
Keith,
You never bothered to post your drivers license or your social security number online for us to view to verify who it is we are speaking to. While you're at it now you can just post your Sifu's name, social secuity number and bank account online when you finish that!
You seem to think there is no difference between yourself asking for this information then when it was given to Master Meng. Let me explain this one more time there is a difference, that is Master Meng showed enough character and etiquette to fly to San Francisco and ask face to face. You want to do your research from the chair of your office at home fine just don't blame others for the limitations you subject yourself to.

originally posted by KPM
Did you think to ask them why they use terminology known to be unique to Yip Man? Did you think to ask them why they are using english technical terms from physics that were unknown concepts 300 years ago in China? Did you think to ask how they came by the Luk Sao rolling platform of Chi Sau which was developed by Yuen Kay Shan with help in the refining process by Yip Man?
Keith,
Again you obviously give yourself too much credit when it comes to judging an entire system of kung fu. Your surface level comparisons couldn't be more wrong and many other people with open minds have come to Hung Fa Yi and found out for themselves instead of trying to guess.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1430
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1196

KPM

10-31-2005, 03:58 AM

You never bothered to post your drivers license or your social security number online for us to view to verify who it is we are speaking to. While you're at it now you can just post your Sifu's name, social secuity number and bank account online when you finish that!

---That's just silly! No one asks for such things when discussing other lineages, as I noted before. That's just another attempt to dodge the issues and the questions.

Let me explain this one more time there is a difference, that is Master Meng showed enough character and etiquette to fly to San Francisco and ask face to face. You want to do your research from the chair of your office at home fine just don't blame others for the limitations you subject yourself to.

---Let me explain this one more time......this is a discussion form...did you come to discuss? You are upset that people have the wrong impression about HFY and its background, yet you are unwilling to provide information to correct those impressions and continue to reinforce those impressions by the way you post and respond to questions. It seems like every time the topic rears its head on various threads we get the same result.....questions are asked, emotional non-informative responses are given from the HFY members, things typically get nasty, and nothing is gained. You cannot expect everyone that has any question about HFY to be able to drop everything and make a pilgramage to San Francisco. At this point I share Andrew Nerlich's fear that walking into the HFY home base in SF would be like walking thru the front door of the Scientology Institute, and you guys have said nothing to make me think differently. In fact, you have been reinforcing that impression!

Keith

viper

10-31-2005, 04:56 AM

GhostDog68

10-31-2005, 05:52 AM

Until you've gone and experienced it yourself there is no way you can even have an opinion on whether what I stated as opinion is belief, unbridled hyperbole, or a detached observation.

Well, since no HFY practitioner answered my earlier questions about Wang Ming and his relationship to GM Gee, (which, as I noted, would go a LONG way to strengthen HFY's claims to legitimacy) maybe someone can answer this one:

On this and other threads, the HFY practitioners keep saying over and over and over (!) that you have to "experience the system" in order to validate its claims.

HOWEVER, what possible experience could any of you possess that would validate its historical claims? For example, what possible experience could you have that would enable you to verify that, indeed, Taan Sau Ng invented "the WC Formula" rather than Garrett Gee?

Jim Roselando

10-31-2005, 07:01 AM

CFT,

Hey Jim,

Have you seen the film "Warriors Two"? The "story" of Leung Jan and Chan Wah Sun. There is a scene where Leung Jan describes Wing Chun power coming from the combination of chuen (inch) ging and geng (frightened) ging. The geng ging was demonstrated by LJ poking CWS in the back with a needle.

I wonder who the film makers consulted for this picture of WCK power? My take of this explanation is that this "relaxed" reactionary power expressed at short distance is the basis of WCK power.

In another scene LJ describes to CWS how to break the Iron Shirt kung fu. Iron Shirt is predicated on the breath, might be chi - I think it is body conditioning plus breathing plus tension at the right time. Anyway, LJ says to use WCK power (chuen + geng) to break the breath - thus the body is just a collection of vulnerablities to attack.

Nice fiction with a smattering of credible ideas. Pretty sweet how they worked some WCK stories into the storyline.

This is movie stuff. Please do not confuse it with reality.

I was at an Iron Shirt demo last week with some Mantis and Hung friends. I video tapes the Iron Shirt and its breathing. A lot of this stuff is fresh on my mind. Its not Natural at all! How can one fall into the Natural or Soft way when the Chi is trying to be put in specific areas?

Natural is Sink it and let it go where the body wants it to go! Nothing forced!

Its still cool stuff but just a totally different theory once again!

Thanks,

Jim Roselando

10-31-2005, 07:38 AM

Train,

I "could" say that Goo Lo wing chun looks like a simplified form of YM wing chun just by observing it and reading about it on the net but i'm not going there. I know there's more to GLWC but I hope to have my skepticism shattered one day, but I can't see that day being close.

Sure! Maybe its just some simple art and maybe its not. The good thing is there are lots of places you can go to check it out or read about from numerous sources! ;)

BTW: Do you think that old master Leung Jan would leave his final legacy a group of village guys goofing around? Would that look good for him? If Leung Jan did not feel he taught them properly then why would he not say to them on his death bed: You guys should go train with the Futshan guys after I am gone! He didn't! Leung Jan approached Wong Wah Sam which is different IMO. He wanted to teach him! He trained daily with him for nearly 4 years.

Thanks,

CFT

10-31-2005, 10:57 AM

This is movie stuff. Please do not confuse it with reality.

I was at an Iron Shirt demo last week with some Mantis and Hung friends. I video tapes the Iron Shirt and its breathing. A lot of this stuff is fresh on my mind. Its not Natural at all! How can one fall into the Natural or Soft way when the Chi is trying to be put in specific areas?

Natural is Sink it and let it go where the body wants it to go! Nothing forced!

Its still cool stuff but just a totally different theory once again!Jim, are you saying they've got it "wrong"? So what is iron shirt all about then?

Jim Roselando

10-31-2005, 11:14 AM

CFT,

Go back and read the thread of Natural or Soft art or Hard Un-natural.

There is nothing wrong with what they were doing! It fits in their Harder arts and methods. I do not consider it Rou or Natural.

Just my opinion!

Thanks,

Hendrik

10-31-2005, 11:35 AM

How can one fall into the Natural or Soft way when the Chi is trying to be put in specific areas?

,

IMHO

There are hard qigong and soft qigong.

for the soft one,
One might be able to do that if one has settle one's shen and can use one's Yee to direct it, instead of using brute force attention and muscular tensing to work it out which get the chi there but also might be stagnated it there.

Using the Yee to direct the Chi is Called Dao In or leading the flow.

just some thought

DRleungjan

10-31-2005, 02:44 PM

Hey there all,

All this talk about different types of energies is making me wooozzyyy. :confused: LOL

OK an honest question: I am taking the SLT as my model. As I understand it, energy is like truth in that no matter how many permutations of it one comes across the bottom line is the same...truth is truth. So with this in mind...in SLT what are the energies that are present in the form (besides ging)?

I apologize in advance for not being able to pose my query in a better format.

Hendrik

10-31-2005, 03:43 PM

So with this in mind...in SLT what are the energies that are present in the form (besides ging)?

Spakling shine light weight Empower flow, Carefree omi-directional Attention, with Dynamic centering.

As the Kuen Kuit said

Thus, Thus not moving is the real Yin and Yang.
The precious Jewel is Immovable, thus the application flows un limitless.
Immovable is the source of Move/Application.
Open, Close, Ascending, and declining.... (notice: this is very different to suck, spit, float, sink)

Intention just slightly move the Shen is already there.....

Note: there is nothing about Thoughts or programing in the Kuit. Why? because the training is beyond the realm of Thought Speculation. It is entering to a broader and multi-diamentional co existing realm.....

To enter this realm, one needs to enter the Settle state as in the previous post 4 states before Dyana. There one meets one old friend, Zhen Qi .....

IMHO.

anerlich

10-31-2005, 04:50 PM

Can one of you guys please put a link up to tell me about Hung Fa Yi as i dont have a clue about it. I practice the GM cheung line and im just interested in the comparisons history etc to do with this particular line as i know squat about it.

www.vtmuseum.org and the book "Mastering Kung Fu" give the lineage proponents' own version of HFY and Jee Sim (Chi sim) Wing Chun History.

The book "Complete Wing Chun" also has chapters on buth Jee Sim and HFY, though the latter is called Hung Suen in that book.

To state the bleeding obvious, history is a highly contentious subject, many of those claiming the inside dope and high moral ground being at least as b!tchy, slimy and vituperative as anyone else.

TWC (my lineage as well as well as yours) is as bad a lineage as any for improbable historical claims, but that doesn't negate your right to question or demand an obligation to accept claims made by anyone, even if they are "acknowledged" (mostly by themselves) experts.

Strap yourself in for a wild ride ... just remember the present and future of WC are more important than the past, and your training today is more important than what some possibly fictional persons possibly did a century or more ago!

anerlich

10-31-2005, 04:56 PM

This is the VTM's current theory based upon years of research.

"Labelling" is not "theory". Just like "straw man" is not logic.

Train

10-31-2005, 05:13 PM

Sure! Maybe its just some simple art and maybe its not. The good thing is there are lots of places you can go to check it out or read about from numerous sources! JR

Sure there are lots of sources, but all of them talk about the same stuff. i like to listen to different lineages talk about their side of their history. I don't agree with all of them but hey it's their hisory! I don't go out my way and dog them just becuase it's different.

BTW: Do you think that old master Leung Jan would leave his final legacy a group of village guys goofing around? Would that look good for him? If Leung Jan did not feel he taught them properly then why would he not say to them on his death bed: You guys should go train with the Futshan guys after I am gone! He didn't! Leung Jan approached Wong Wah Sam which is different IMO. He wanted to teach him! He trained daily with him for nearly 4 years.

I don't doubt that Master Leung Jan was good. But in IMO Master lueng jan could have only talk them the San Sau version. But then again who knows.... there isn't any thing documented saying anything.... And Actually I don't care!! You have your history others have theirs!!!!

Peace...

duende

11-01-2005, 05:25 AM

Well, since no HFY practitioner answered my earlier questions about Wang Ming and his relationship to GM Gee, (which, as I noted, would go a LONG way to strengthen HFY's claims to legitimacy) maybe someone can answer this one:

2nd post... no profile... :rolleyes:

If you truly want to know the answer to your question, there is only one way. EARN IT.

You have earned nothing... except a "most likely to grow up and be a troll" title.

On this and other threads, the HFY practitioners keep saying over and over and over (!) that you have to "experience the system" in order to validate its claims.

HOWEVER, what possible experience could any of you possess that would validate its historical claims? For example, what possible experience could you have that would enable you to verify that, indeed, Taan Sau Ng invented "the WC Formula" rather than Garrett Gee?

The formula is much too complex to have been invented by one person. End of story...

We keep preaching that hand's on experience is essential for learning Kung Fu over and over because it is. End of Story...

Here's yet another WC practioner from a different lineage (20 years experience) who experienced the system for himself.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1430

This is real.

Jim Roselando

11-01-2005, 06:56 AM

Train,

Sure there are lots of sources, but all of them talk about the same stuff. i like to listen to different lineages talk about their side of their history.

Do they all talk about the same stuff? Please give examples! We have some saying: 12, 22, 40, 50 blah blah. The only way to come up with a more likely is to sift thru all the info. and go cross check the different lineages, terms, methods, mechanics etc..

I don't agree with all of them but hey it's their hisory! I don't go out my way and dog them just becuase it's different.

Researching them or trying to figure out a more likely is dog them? Was I rude to my sifu because I cross check the info. he gave me? Funny how he didn't give it a second thought! The only problem people have when discussing stuff that comes close to home is their own ego and desired beliefs being bothered. So, we have two ways of looking at it! One is what is fair for all is ok and the other is what is fair for all is not ok for us according to your position. Nobody has been under the micro scope more than Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, Pan Nam etc.. So, for me, in the end all that matter is are you happy? Who cares what people discuss if you are happy!

I don't doubt that Master Leung Jan was good. But in IMO Master lueng jan could have only talk them the San Sau version. But then again who knows.... there isn't any thing documented saying anything....

What is the progression and purpose of WCK? Cultivation right! Did Chen Man Cheng waste any benefits of Taiji when he refined the form? Did Wang Xiang Zhai waste any benefit of Hsing Yi when he refined and developed Yi Chuan? Number of moves and terms this or that means nothing IMO. It obviously didn't mean much to these guys either! Content is what counts. Leung Jan was no different! There is much documented about Dr. Leung. Books written (some that are in the process of being translated as we speak), his home has historical pictures in it, movies made etc. etc. Dr. Leung Jan's own family, Leung Wai Nam (great grandson), stays in contact with Fung Chun sifu of the Ku Lo family. Lots of places and info to cross check for research. Fung Wah Sang has compiled a huge doctrine on the life and teaching of Dr. Leung thru his research. So many ways to look into Dr. Leung to come up with more likely or less likely.

And Actually I don't care!! You have your history others have theirs!!!!

Great! Then stay out of the debate if you dont care! This is a "Discussion Board" after all and nobody is above or below anyone. If its ok to discuss the details of every WCK art over the years then that should include every art! Even the Secret Ones :p

Regards,