Zhou Gao Shan

[blackmantis]

I would like to know more about Zhou Gao Shan. I have read the page on the mantis cave and would like to know more.

Does anyone have any information?

Many thanks,

S

[K.Brazier]

In spent time with the group in '89.
What do you want to know?
Kevin

[blackmantis]

Great! I'm glad someone will be able to help. Where is he based? What styles does he teach and practise? Is he the martial brother of Su Yu-Chang? Any information at all would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks,

S

[K.Brazier]

Zhou has a university club here in Tainan as well as one in Gaohsiung.
I am not sure if he is in charge of any clubs in other cities.

My Shidi studied with his club, I think Gaohsiung branch, and climbed up high the ladder.
Said he is in some little mountain in Gaohsiung county. Might be a tea plantation.

He can be contacted through the Wutan branch. Really, this is a question for Wutan...

As for what he practices I think he doesn't practice, which is why I don't hang with them. That was my impression when I was there and 2 of my shidi who were there much longer said the same thing.

I know it sounds bad to say that. But if you want to train with the man it seems unlikely that you will both be dropping sweat on the same floor.
The clubs just let the students teach.

His brother used to take him to Zhang Dekuei's classes many years ago I have heard from my shifu.
Though my shifu himself never saw zhou in the class.
In watching the class there is none of Zhang Dekuei's mantis to be seen.

His students in the club start by teaching the 8 Step lipi form. But they also teach a bunch of other styles, the most important being baji. Hence the name Baji Tang Lang.
They also have some 7* like Cha Chuei and Beng Bu looks like the version Gao Daosheng's students perform.

The club at Tainan uni practices outside by the main thorough fare. If you stop and watch you will be chased off as they do not allow anyone to watch them.
Of course you can stand across the street and watch from a distance.
I think this secretive "you can't watch us" mentality is damaging their club.
Back in '89 there were 40-50 kids in the club. I noticed this years recruits new and old barely passed 10.

He is the martial brother of Su Yuzhang.
So if you are interested in that style there are many other branches of Wutan around the world.
I have heard that the Taipei branch is much more vigorous.

[blackmantis]

I've heard good things about the Zhou Gao Shan group but you don't seem to be so sure? I believe they study Tanglang (Babu, Qixing and Meihua), Tai Chi (Chen), Baji and Bagua.

How long did you study with them and what did you learn?

Many thanks,

S

[blackmantis]

Incidently is there any rivalry between this group and Su's group do you know?

[RAF]

I don't think that Master Su Yu Zhang is operatiing out of Taiwan. Master Su has schools in Japan, South America and Spain (from what I have heard, his daughter, an MD, lives in Spain). I also think he may be doing something out of New York.

I am not sure how there would be any direct competition between these two groups.

Adam Hsu is teaching out of Taipei, Taiwan. Maybe you are thinking about them perhaps?

There is a lot of variation among those who cnsider themselves Wu Tan(g) (teaching the material from the late GM Liu Yun Qiao). Within Wu Tan, Su is generally known as the main line of praying mantis outside of Liu He tanglang quan).

[K.Brazier]

Blackmantis,
I was in the group for a short time.
I am going by what I see. And I have been able to watch them over the years.

I teach kung fu right down the lane from them. It is at the uni and all outside so I would pass them on the way to my class.

The only 2 man drill I ever saw was 8 Step pai an and that was many many years ago. I have seent hem tdo the uni demos and is 99% solo forms of many different styles.

I didn't like it. But my students who were with me thought it was nice becuase it had so much variety. SO each man has his own...well, you know.

Anyway, it is my opinion on what I saw. I think you would want to train with the Zhou and I don't see that happening.

Kevin

[blackmantis]

Thanks Kevin that is very interesting. You say that you teach near this group- are there many many schools in your area? What reputation does Zhou's have in the area? Or is it not that kind of environment?

Thank you for being so informative,

S

[K.Brazier]

Actually, I am moving back to the states next month so I have stopped teaching recently.
For the most part Zhou holds a respected position.
When he shows up he gets a lot of respect. His students are quiet and obedient.

Not many people will go out and explore what else is available within the MA community.

There are many teachers, but not many schools. Most people teach outdoors.
Somethng I am sure to miss after leaving here.

Kevin

[blackmantis]

Wow it sounds amazing. Are there many different styles taught in the area? I don't know anything about the situation in Taiwan- I hear there is good bagua there! It's interesting to hear that it is so secretive and inclusive- I suppose they are trying to keep up a high level of traditional martial arts.

Many thanks for all your information,

S

[FranklinFick]

Hi, I am moving to Tainan in a couple weeks...

i was hoping that you might fill me in a little on the martial arts scene in Tainan...

thank you for any help
Franklin


you can contact me privatly if you would like
internalkungfu@hotmail.com

or through my website
www.internalkungfu.org

[yu shan]

Do yourself a favor and seek out Shr Zhengzhong. You can contact him thru Shifu Kevin Brazier, he posts here. Tainan is nice keep us posted.

[blackmantis]

Could someone tell me from what lineage the Zhou Gao Shan group know their 8-step mantis? After Lipi what do they learn does anyone know?

Many thanks,

S

[RAF]

If he follows what I beleive would be a Wutan(g) "take" (Su Yu Zhang/Another disciple of Wei Xiao Tang [met him at a seminar on pi'an/bimen, also great in xing yi] and Tony Yang) on 8 Step mantis it would be:

Seven Hand, Seven Hand fight

LiPi, LiPi fight

Xiao Fan Sha

Da Fan Sha

Babu Zhao Yao #1

Babu Zhao #2

This would include all the stance work, single moving postures including the fighting side and some exercises that are praying mantis but are similar to a speeded up pushing hands.

In addition, a number of the 18 lohan exercises are used as part of the warm-up plus kick, stretch and punching warm-ups.

[blackmantis]

Great thank you that is extremely useful. Do they practise weapon forms do you know? If so what do they train in?

What do you mean by "Lipi fight"? Is it different from Lipi or is it the applications of Lipi?

Thank you!

S

[RAF]

It would be wrong for me to say that we are "pure" lineage 8 step mantis. The guy who is Su Yu Zhang's long term friend (Chen, I just can't remember) has his picture in Wei Xiao Tang's disciple book (My teacher has a copy of the book) also has influenced our 8 step practice.

Lipi fight is the B side of the form---it correlates with the form.

In general, beginning students larn feng mo gun, jiben dao, jiben dao fight and lai men dao.

However, they also learn things like mei hua hand, mei hua lu, beng bu, qi qing Zhao yao, mimen, six harmony spear form, tanglang shou, cao chui (I can't get the right pinyin because of the Taiwan accent but it translates into "inserting fist". No jokes please) Zai kuei, Fen Shen ba zhou, kun wu sword, praying mantis two handed swords. There is also pi'an or is it called bi'men?

There were also a lot of drills we did in the 80s---two man, learning to block and grab a thrusting staff, two guys would sit and do almost wing chung like blocking and punching (you sat so you learned to move your upper body). There were also leg drills with your hands behind your back.

They also have picked up a lot of the taiji meihua tanglang from Sun De Yao and Zhang Wei Fu.

So to make a long story short, I am sure there are true lineage holders of the 8 step system which can add more but this is what we, or I should say they, do.

I went through a lot of the above but wasn't interested at that time so its the younger generation that does the work in praying mantis---kinda of late in life I realized what I missed by not training harder in mantis. No regrets, it just wan't my bag at that time.:(

[blackmantis]

Thank you that is all fascinating. The seated two-man drills sounds particularly interesting and unusual. I train in Babu Tanglang and have only done solo work coming from the Zhou Gao Shan school.

I have a question regarding the Lohan exercises- I have learned only nine exercises so far, the last one is called "Iron Ox" or something? I've heard there are eighteen in all so I wonder if I have learned something different.

I am taught by someone who learned from the Zhou Gao Shan group.

[RAF]

It must be a Wutan(g) thing but I also only learned about 9 of the exercises. I think the ocmplete set is on Su Yu Zhang's tape but when I did the seminar with him ( I only went through the first 3 because I had to leave early to take one of the Chinese competitors to the bus station) they were slightly different than what I had learned earlier.

Zhou Gao Shan---I really don't know anything about him ohter than his name came up on one of the wutan(g) Yang taiji tapes that was out int he 1980s.

FWIW the supposed abstraction presented on the tape resembled little what Liu had taught my teacher. So I only speak about what my teacher learned and what he taught me---I have no explanations as to why there is so much variations in wutan(g) material.

That is about all I got left---good luck!

[blackmantis]

Thank you for all your help. I feel quite alone as I am taught one-to-one from someone who used to belong to the Zhou Gao Shan Wutan group so it is great to discuss it with people who know so much.

Many thanks for all your information!

S

[RAF]

Well my point wasn't too clear but I really don't know much beyond what my teacher Tony Yang has taught me---I don't know the politics regarding Wutang and Taiwan although my teacher was and is very close to Su Yu Zhang. However, my teacher also studied mantis under others and it really was his first love.

I am making no judgement regardng Zhou Gao Shan since I don't know him and really never heard anything bad about him.

I Sincerely wish you the best in your training and if you have any questions, at least from the perspective I know of, please do not hesitate to ask.

I think there are others that have a much more deeper understanding of 8 Step mantis and they can probably do a much better job detailing out what you might want to know.

[blackmantis]

Thank you for being extremely insightful. It's great to have fellow 8-Step enthusiasts to discuss with!

Many thanks!!!

S