Wing Chun in real fights

[-disciple-]

I'm just wondering, but how effective is WC in a real fight? I'm a new student, just on my 5th week, and ive been told why it's effective, and seen how easily my sifu defeats me in drills, the attack and defend at same time, and he's showed me his wooden dummy, but I'm still not convinced how effective it is in real life situations. I'm sure it works well against another wing chunner, but how about a diffrent person? I know it will take years of practice and dedication to become good at WC, but how effective is it really? I'm refering to traditional WC, not modified. I meen, because WC punches are to the face ( at least they are for me so far ) you know where there going to punch, thus it's easier to block. But what if somone fakes a punch somewhere, and then strieks somewhere else entirely? Anyways, any feedback would be nice. I just wanna know if it is effective at all in real life situations, or against other Martial Arts.

[Ernie]

wing Chun doesn't fight people do
if your looking at your current teacher and you have a doubt he can deal with a fake , shoot , jab ,,,,,,,,,, and so on
you have answered your own question ;)
if your really concerned with ""fighting'' then go train in a fighting art that works off the more common lines of attack [boxing , kickboxing , Thai boxing , MMA , ] are all great places to research were hard sparring is common place , the minute you walk in and meet a good coach or fighter you will know they have no problem dealing with , fakes , jabs and so on , because they train against that all the time .

the chance that you will stumble upon a Wing Chun school traditional or other wise that has a clue or care about hard training is very very rare , some will ''look''like they do put on gear and pads but still be empty . and when you do meet the Sifu / coach you will see him/her move and have no doubt if that person is functional or just a drill/chi-sau dancer


rice bowl protectors please insert comments here :eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Everybody was chi-sau dancing...lightning fists and feet are prancing." :p

[Ernie]

"Everybody was chi-sau dancing...those fists were really prancing..." :p
the blows were a little bit glancing
everybody was chi sau dancing


wo woo oh wooooooo !

[Fajing]

I meen, because WC punches are to the face ( at least they are for me so far ) you know where there going to punch, thus it's easier to block. But what if somone fakes a punch somewhere, and then strieks somewhere else entirely? Anyways, any feedback would be nice. I just wanna know if it is effective at all in real life situations, or against other Martial Arts.

Not in all Wing Chun. It depends on your teacher. We practice ranom punches to the gut, shoulder, face, chest, ect. These are harder to block. Shoot them in all directions. Attack many targets. Do fakes. Don't be afraid to adapt the Wing Chun principles to the way you fight and what you find effective. I don't recommend staying hardcore to tradition. Times change. We have to evolve. When you understand the art better, put your own twist to it. Effective is better/more important than tradition IMO. :D

[YongChun]

[QUOTE=-disciple-]I'm just wondering, but how effective is WC in a real fightQUOTE]

I guess it depends on what you call a real fight? If you had a real fight with your teacher then he would probably clean your clock - depending on your physical size and mentality.

The effectiveness of Wing Chun just depends on your training method. The art itself is just a form of boxing which isn't inferior to any other kind of boxing. There are punches, kicks, elbows, grabs and anything else. The idea is just to fight economically and to get a lot of experience against all kinds of people. It helps to get into shape. So if you get fit, learn to punch fast and hard and develop the timing to move in against all kinds of people then you should be OK.

The Hong Kong people before seemed to have mostly done Chi sau and after that go out on the street and fight. That method seemed to work OK but totally failed in tournment competition. Then some clubs threw away most of the Chi sau training and then did better in tournament fighting. There is no information on whether that made their street fighting any worse.

Against the Thai boxer, most if not all the classical martial arts like Karate, various Kung Fu styles etc. all lost. These days some of the SanDa fighters have had some success and Gary Lam seems to have managed to keep alive against them as well.

If you want to be a good fighter then it's good to get experience against all kinds of fighters: boxers, Thai boxers, Jujitsu, Judo, Wrestling people etc. After that you still won't be any good against the stick fighters, knife fighters, etc.

The go out in the street method and fight will get you killed off real fast (fists can't handle knives and guns) so the only alternative is to do club sparring and then compete against other styles. Losing a lot is part of learning to be good. If you don't lose then what can you learn?

A lot of the Hong Kong people learned about two years of Wing Chun and then went out to fight. In the 80's we had various students with a similar amount of training and they successfully used Wing Chun for police work, for bouncing work and some in tournaments against Karate. Of course whether you can use it depends against who? Maybe all of the Hong Kong fighters were nothing in comparison to today's fighters. The modern mixed martial arts fighter is no slouch and they are geting better all the time. You can't beat these guys with just standard drills and Chi Sau training.

Most of the newspaper assaults I read about around here usually involve at least knives or multiple opponents like about 10 teenagers kicking your head in.

If I did it over again, I would probably start with grappling, do some boxing/Thai boxing as my core, then study some classical art like Wing Chun and sprinkle in some Filipino weapons fighting. I would keep Wing Chun as my core method but investigate everthing else on the planet too.

That's not to say that you can't just start and end with Wing Chun and also be effective. In theory it's possible. Against the big boys MMA people, no one has showed that any classical art will do the job. Ring and street competition are two different things though. Street people are not restricted to a manly one on one fist to fist fight.

In Hong Kong before, Wing Chun was called the gangster fist because some of the gangs found it quite useful. I would say the classical training should still work in most confrontations except when dealing with a seasoned modern MMA.

Why don't you see what you can learn in about a year's time and then re-evaluate what you are learning. Also take into consideration that going once a week for a year if very different from training 7 hours a day for a year.

I figure that those people who are at the master level, put in about 20,000 hours of training. Even then, they are no gods and not immune to defeat.

Ray

[eadragon21]

Ernie has a good point here. You definitely need to question the effectiveness of your sifu's teaching if they can't handle common attacks.(jabs, hooks, kicks, shoots takedowns etc.) I train with a group of guys, one of whom used to box a bit and one who came from a grappling background, so there attacks are what we train to use wing chun against. I know everyone has heard this, but it really is how hard you train. Tell your partner to try and take your head off with a punch, and see how you react. If you can get off the line of attack and throw something back with power and accuracy, you know you're at a good starting point. Push yourself to be better, and always challenge and increase the intensity, because you just never know how fast/powerful/or what direction attacks will come at you in real life. Train with grapplers to see how they work, I've started with that and it has helped immensely. But, there are also many, many answers within the wing chun system, you just have to look a bit deeper perhaps. It's all in how you train.

Peace

[-disciple-]

well, i didnt meen to question my Sifu's teaching effectiveness or his skill. I'm very impressed with his fighting ability, and it's not as if he can't handle regular punches or random punches. It's just while learning tan sao and bil sao, as well as other deflections, i noticed that im only learning how to deflect puches such as straights and jabs and hooks. I also noticed that when he showed me his wooden dummy form, It was all fluid, with no changes. I meen, waht are the chances that your opponent are going to stand still and take a beating like a wooden dummy does. Anyways, My sifu is also my uncle, and as such he is teaching me out of the kindness of his heart for absolutely nothing. I love WC so far, and want to continue in it for many years to come. I don't have much choice in what Martial Art to learn, and im just glad i can learn WC. ( It's always been my dream to learn Kung Fu. I know it will take hard work, and I'm no slouch.)

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention. I only get to practice WC with my Sifu ( im his only student ) about once a week for a couple of hours. I know it's not enough, but i do drills on my own as much as possible

[Phil Redmond]

well, i didnt meen to question my Sifu's teaching effectiveness or his skill. I'm very impressed with his fighting ability, and it's not as if he can't handle regular punches or random punches. It's just while learning tan sao and bil sao, as well as other deflections, i noticed that im only learning how to deflect puches such as straights and jabs and hooks. I also noticed that when he showed me his wooden dummy form, It was all fluid, with no changes. I meen, waht are the chances that your opponent are going to stand still and take a beating like a wooden dummy does. Anyways, My sifu is also my uncle, and as such he is teaching me out of the kindness of his heart for absolutely nothing. I love WC so far, and want to continue in it for many years to come. I don't have much choice in what Martial Art to learn, and im just glad i can learn WC. ( It's always been my dream to learn Kung Fu. I know it will take hard work, and I'm no slouch.)
Think of WC like music. You first learn the notes, then scales/theory. After a while you should be able to improvise on your own. BTW, the wooden dummy form teaches 'sets' of 'possible' techniques. It's up to you to improvise, adapt, and overcome your opponent.
PR

[Mr Punch]

I meen, waht are the chances that your opponent are going to stand still and take a beating like a wooden dummy does. What are the chances he'll have three arms, one leg and no face?! :D

The dummy is not a human, and nobody is trying to tell you otherwise. The dummy teaches you the basics of certain aspects of wing chun that you need.

You shouldn't need to worry about the dummy just yet, just trust your kind uncle, and follow the very good advice of the posts above on this thread!:)

[couch]

To echo a few people here and to answer your initial question:

...it's about what YOU do with YOUR Wing Chun. Wing Chun is alive because you are alive and if you want to you and your Wing Chun to be the best...then you need to do the research and push yourself to the limit.

Trust what your teacher is teaching you for the time being. You need to get your feet wet with SOMETHING before you have anything to compare it to.

About the dummy: Are you playing the Jong? Or is the Jong playing you?

The same can be said about Wing Chun. First you have to learn it, then understand it, then you can forget it because it's a part of you.

Good luck on your training. If you can't train a lot with your Sifu, think about purchasing a Dummy and ask your Sifu to show you the drills on the Dummy. It's a great tool to teach you prper distancing.

Peace,
Kenton Sefcik

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am somewhat ashamed of myself as I allowed my temper to get the better of me. Still, I thought I would share an experience today to illustrate that you can learn to be effective in real fights using Wing Chun or whatever art you chose, as long as your focus is correct.

This morning my wife and I were riding on my motorcycle and had just left Toys R Us. We bought a Slurpee mahine for one of our kids. As we were pulling out of the parking lot a car came around the corner very quickly and almost hit us. The driver made a rather rude gesture and then pulled over and signaled me to come over, he kind of gave me the finger. Anyhow, I know I should have riden on but I was a little ****ed so I pulled the bike over to him and got off. He and I excahgne words and they he actually got into a front stance. I laughed at him and proceded to take his knee out and knocked him down. He got up and tried to kick me from this same stance with his left leg as the lead. I stepped to his left and had perfect openings to hit him and kick him in the knee again. He then tried to throw a punch and I parried and applied an arm bar and dropped him to his knees, I then applied a rear choke and almost choked him out, but my wife stopped me.

Now I don't know how good this guy was, but I was not too impressed. At the same time I never really tried to seriously hurt him but there was plenty of opportunity to do so. Who knows, maybe if I had hit him instead of opting to control him, he would have gotten ****ed off and kicked my a** but I kind of doubt it.

I noticed that he was not prepared for the explosiveness of Wing Chun nor was he able to adapt to the rapid changes of our combat situation. His one sided stance allowed me to take advantage of his blind side and use it to my advantage.
I felt very comfortable in fighting him and felt that I could almost do whatever I wanted to with him. Once I applie the choke I effectively broke his balance and took away many of his options. He was quite a bit younger than I and in much better shape. As a matter of fact during our exchange of words he called me fat, which hurt far more than any of his ineffective attacks did. I am not thinking about getting back in shape:D .

For me, Wing Chun has always been an effective art and has served me well over the years. But, I believe that there is a mental aspect which is far more important than the specific shape of your techniques. You have to be willing to hurt someone, not saying you have to, but you need to be willing to cross that line if you have too. You also need to keep your head and not fight out of anger. Even though I allowed myself to get mad, I did not fight out of anger, at least I kept a cool head.

Please do not take this as some boastful attempt to make myself look bad. The truth is that I was wrong to even get into a fight. However, for me, Wing Chun is and continues to be an effective method of combat. If you train properly then even when you get old and out of shape like me, you may find you can deal with the average person you run into to.

[kj]

Sorry to hear about your day, David. Thanks for sharing about it though.

I hope an arrest or lawsuit as a result of the fracas isn't an issue. :(

Regards,
- kj

[Matrix]

Please do not take this as some boastful attempt to make myself look bad. The truth is that I was wrong to even get into a fight. However, for me, Wing Chun is and continues to be an effective method of combat. If you train properly then even when you get old and out of shape like me, you may find you can deal with the average person you run into to.Hey Dave,

Some good points all around on this subject. This guy obviously had an attitude that needed an adjustment. I guess he won a medal in a point sparring tourament recently, so he felt he was a real bad @ss. :rolleyes: Having said that, your point on keeping your cool is what must be top of mind. Clowns like this are around every corner. Let's not let them con us into doing something we'll regret later.

Peace,

[aikido_student4]

Don't worry things will work out just study hard and some time later try some FADs (free action drills) and you'll see how well it can work

[Ultimatewingchun]

"...I believe that there is a mental aspect which is far more important than the specific shape of your techniques. You have to be willing to hurt someone, not saying you have to, but you need to be willing to cross that line if you have too." (D)


***SO TRUE, Dave. Being willing to hurt someone is not only understandable in certain circumstances, but necessary, in this world, imo. It's unfortunate - but it's true. We live in a tough place, this planet Earth. And quite often, I have found, the very willingness to hurt the person in front of you is all it may take to get him to back off; and if he doesn't - then hurt him.



"You also need to keep your head and not fight out of anger. Even though I allowed myself to get mad, I did not fight out of anger, at least I kept a cool head." (D)


***I HAVE A SLIGHTLY different take on this, Dave. I personally believe that anger is important when engaged in a confrontation. It's important to let yourself feel it - so that it keeps you focused on hurting this person; so that you beat him till he drops, choke him till he's very weak - and yes, dare I say it, kill him if you have to. (This may sound crazy to some, but I believe I'm just telling it like it is). Supposing this guy turned out to be a real lunatic - and your wife was with you, right? And in order to protect her (or yourself, for that matter) against a raging lunatic...

if you don't allow yourself to feel angry enough to be willing to whatever it takes to stop him - this could turn out to be the sorriest (and perhaps the last) day of your life!

But the kind of anger I'm talking about, though intense, can't be allowed to control you completely (ie.- you've lost your head). That's the key.

If it gets too hot - then your fighting efficiency and technique will suffer - or you may go too far - and not stop hitting him, kicking him, or choking him when it's clear he's no longer a threat, and now you're the one who's in danger of crossing over the line.

So yes...a cool enough head not to make fighting or judgment mistakes.

But angry all the same.

[Fajing]

Glad to hear that you didn't get hurt. I agree that you should have avoided him, BUT I think since you didn't, it was a good wake-up for him. People like him need a smack to the ego so they will SIMMA DOWN. You may have prevented him from attacking someone later down the line.;)

[-disciple-]

Thanks for all of your responses guys. My training has been going along very well, and im begining to truly see how well wing chun works in fighting situations. Ive been asking my sifu questions about this and that, and his responses and demonstrations have been amazing. I am now just begining to learn the Su Lim Tao form, and am pleased to report that everything is going well. Thanks for all your responses!