Push, Cover, Nail, Dig...etc.

[Fu-Pow]

Based on the convo in another thread between Sow Choy and myself I thought we could discuss the different types of palm techniques.

The ones that appear in our form are:

-Teui Jeung-push palm
-Palm-down Chaan Jeung-digging palm
-Palm-up Chaan Jeung -"
-Kong Jeung-attacking palm
-Kaam Jeung-cover palm
-Pau Jeung-Up Palm

Anyone know the difference between Push Palm and Digging Palm? Anyone know the difference between Kong Jeung and Pau Jeung?

I have also heard of Deng Jeung but I'm not sure how that fits in our terminology.

Other palm techniques?

[fu jow]

...lets see, in our school we use kong jeung in an upward angle. to strike the neck/throat, can also be used to knock over/ sweep someone over your leg. (backwards).by sliding one leg behind them, and then kong jeung to the throat! im pretty sure the pau jeung is also a palm strike but to the stomach,chest,or rib.but both would have the fingers pointing outward. does that sound right?

[CLFNole]

Kong Juerng and Pow Jeurng both are upward palming strikes going typically for the throat area. Kong Jeurng is a double technique whereas Pow Jeurng is a single hand technique.

Deng Jeurng or Nail Palm is similar to chang jeurng with the chang jeurng typically coming from the side and deng coming more straight ahead.

We also use gong jeurng, which is seen in Plum Flower, the 3 block strike combos towards the end.

A don't forget yum jeurng to hit the younger brother. :D

[fu jow]

hey clfnole! so the kong is double because of the block that comes first? and no block for pow, but maybe still gaurding hand near ribs instead of overhead?:confused:

[CLFNole]

Fu Jow:

Yeah the kong jeurng is the double technique scene in many of the LKH sets most notably in ping kuen. The pow jeurng typically has the non-striking/palming hand covering around the under arm.

[fu jow]

ohkeedokee. that makes sense. we do use kong jueng alot....its a good one.thanks.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

Toi Jerng we also use for the palms in Buddha palm or Serng Toi, like in Ping Kuen...

Another one from Buddha Palm is Paut meen Jerng, will have to ask about that translation...

Cum Jerng I have also herad as Gum Sao, as in Mahn Ji Kuen...

Kong Jerng in mahn Ji Kuen looks just like Hung Ga, (one hand with fingers up and the under underneath with the fingers pointed down)

Don't forget the Dahn La, edge of the palm, like at the end of all the LKH forms...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Joe, I think the section in mahn gee kuen you are talking about is called wu dip jeurng or butterfly palm.

[Sow Choy]

CLFNole,

Butterfly Palm I only have heard of as on the waist... also called Kwan Sao, twisting hands...

The section I am talking about is kay lun ma, kwan sao or wu dip jerng, kong jerng...

It could have several names... Maybe 10 Tigers knows the name or any other Hung brothers...

That Mahn Ji Kuen has such a Hung flavor...

Joe

[CLFNole]

From what I know the hung players call it butterfly palm. We call it the same when we bring it in but I think they take it a step further by striking with it in the same position, whereas we open it up into kong juerng. I believe one of the hung gar lines as a form called wu dip jeurng.

[TenTigers]

yeppers like peppers! wu dip jeong, sometimes lien wan dip jeong, too many applications, sometimes I think it comprises the entire system! We use it with the kay lin bo, and also in cat stance into bow stance, very versitile technique.
Can't help but laugh when I see karotty guyz close their fists when they do it. Closed fist is like a closed mind.:p

[Sow Choy]

10 Tiigers,

Do you know if there is a different name for the butterfly palm while drawn in at the waist as compared to the actual strike?

And also is there a poetic name for this move or sucession of moves?

I really enjoyed the article Martha Burr wrote on the many poetic names in Hung Ga that are given to the moves or sucession of moves... Interesting how they are given and at times can help to see the feeling of the movement...

Thanks, and BTW your website is down unless I have the wrong web address...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Sow Choy:

I think when we bring it into the waist and call it "wu dip jeurng" it is actually incorrect and should be "sheung kwun sow". The reason being it is not a palming technique at all but rather an arm trapping technique.

I think the "wu dip jeurng" terminology we use stems from the relationship between CLF and Hung Gar sifus since we do tend to share certain terms.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Sow Choy:

I think when we bring it into the waist and call it "wu dip jeurng" it is actually incorrect and should be "sheung kwun sow". The reason being it is not a palming technique at all but rather an arm trapping technique.

I think the "wu dip jeurng" terminology we use stems from the relationship between CLF and Hung Gar sifus since we do tend to share certain terms.

Peace.

This is how Mak Sifu calls it. Kwan Sau or "Tie Up Hands."

BTW, is this the character for Kong that we are referring to....

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=6297&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=yale&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

It doesn't seem very informative.

[Infrazael]

Sooooo many different names. . . .

Can't we just call it "palm strikes and palm blocks?"

[Fu-Pow]

Sooooo many different names. . . .

Can't we just call it "palm strikes and palm blocks?"


I think the name is important because it gives you an insight into the application, intent or direction of the technique.

[hskwarrior]

i like this thread, except for the chinese translation thing.

I think it may be necessary for some to know the chinese terms for certain techniques, but it isn't mandatory. Pls,no disrespect, but my school is the oldest in the u.s. and we have been surviving this long despite language barriors. we have come up with practical terms such as crushing palm, parry palm, covering palm, slicing palm, pushing palm, thrusting palm, etc. etc, and we do pretty good.

but, can someone explain a terminology and how its translation applies to its usage in combat?

for example, snake comes out of the hole? Tiger catches the lamb?

hsk

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank,

I can speak Cantonese and I know the terminology for 98% of every technique I ever learned. I will be the first to say, that as long as you have the 'accurate' English translation,...I don't think it mean squat if you don't know the Chinese.

The importance of learning terminology comes with the correct names (which usually describle the energy used; i.e., stabbing penetrating, thrusting, etc.) to execute a proper technique.

As long as you know the right translation in English or whatever language, you are good to go! Learning Chinese hasn't made me a better or worse martial artist. I did mean however, that my Sifu (who was from the land that time forgot) did think I could understand EVERTHING he ever said and held me completely responsible when I couldn't! Nothing like getting in trouble 'cause you can't undertand the finer details of Chinese etiquette! Crazy cats, the Chinese are!

In some ways, I wish I never learned a word! LOL I think my life would have been easier....but I digress..........

[Fu-Pow]

Frank,

I can speak Cantonese and I know the terminology for 98% of every technique I ever learned. I will be the first to say, that as long as you have the 'accurate' English translation,...I don't think it mean squat if you don't know the Chinese.

The importance of learning terminology comes with the correct names (which usually describle the energy used; i.e., stabbing penetrating, thrusting, etc.) to execute a proper technique.

...


Yup.......................

[CLFNole]

We are all just comparing notes here. In the LKH lineage techniques are referred to with the chinese names becuase our sifu didn't speak good english. If he did we might use english terms. I don't think anyone implied in any way, shape or form, that knowing chinese terms = good kung fu.

Just comparing notes, thats it.:)

It is a nice change of pace from all the history stuff.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow & Infrazael...

At your School, what do you call the block in Sup Gee, after you do the step right and left sequence in the beginning, it is in a twist stance and is a midrnge block with the hand down and elbow up...

We call it kwan sao... It could easily be a strike too, but even in Plum Flower we learned it as a block...

I think in the LKH lineage they really didn't care so much about names and if they are correct... Especially Li Siu Hung... everytime I ask him he has to think about it... And gives me the same answer LKH gave me... "Ngaw jung yi da, Ngaw mm gan yiu li go ho sup yea" Basically saying he likes fight and doesn't care about silly things...

But still, I agree it's nice to know the names to help understand a bit more, but I enjoy even more hearing everyone else's terms as well...

Lamapai, thank you for sharing alot of your terms, it was great to see the list you made...

But... I still would like to have us all catergorize certain sections of movements that we all have in the forms and try to find the poetic names... Not forms, but the combos in the forms...

I am a firm believer that in the old days there were more combos rther than whole forms to learn... Look atthe make up of our style, right? We are very lucky...

10 Tigers, did you see my question?


Frank, you should make a list of these terms for later use, could be a good think to add to a book...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow & Infrazael...

At your School, what do you call the block in Sup Gee, after you do the step right and left sequence in the beginning, it is in a twist stance and is a midrnge block with the hand down and elbow up...

We call it kwan sao... It could easily be a strike too, but even in Plum Flower we learned it as a block...

I think in the LKH lineage they really didn't care so much about names and if they are correct... Especially Li Siu Hung... everytime I ask him he has to think about it... And gives me the same answer LKH gave me... "Ngaw jung yi da, Ngaw mm gan yiu li go ho sup yea" Basically saying he likes fight and doesn't care about silly things...

Joe

We call it Kwan Sau also. The Wu Dip Jeung that you referred to earlier is also called Kwan Sau or Seung Kwan Sau. Basically, the intent is the same, which is to "tie up" or trap someones arms or legs.

Here's the character for Kwan:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=6346&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=lau&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

Sifu has a nice application of the move you mention that appeared in Inside Kung fu where he blocks and then Yum Jeung/Waat to the groin. What other way do you know of striking with it.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

Yea, I know about the earlier butterfly palm, still interested to hearin some Hung ga terms if they are different...

The Sup gee Kwan sao has lots of apps that I know of... I know of the grabbing possibilities after the forearm blocks... As well as some elbow strikes too...

Also using Dahn la after is easy to apply... But some of my favorite are using Kwan Sao to catch the opponents kicks... Especially a round kick, Sup gee has some not easy to see apps in it in that section where you step right & left...

example Kwan Sao, Sun Kiu... there is a catch... Poon kiu, cun jerng: Instead of using Poon Kiu as a block, you use it move the leg to your other side and use the palm to aid in a take down... I have used that one alot in sparring...

I also like the postion of Kwan Sao for helping to avoid an arm break... If your arm gets grabbed while punching... Bend the elbow, then using another Sup Gee technique, the one in that same left/ right section... from Fu Jow, circle the hand over while you bend the elbowto stop the elbow from getting hurt, grab with other hand, circle into Chum kiu and voila... you have reversed it...

It also is used like Wing Chun's Bong Sao... But I do not believe it is good to use it on the inside... On the outside is more practical away from the other hand and feet...

If you dont know what I mean: While opponent is attacking use the kwan sao to block a punch on the outside area of arm, grab, backfist, etc...

Kwan Sao is also good if someone has a knife, and you can set up a grab after... Not that I think fighting someone with a knife is a smart thing to do...

Uncle Joe

[yutyeesam]

Sifu calls it Kwan Kiu. Kiu is forearm? If so then it makes sense b/c doesn't Sao refer to hand? With Kwan Kiu, the contact surface is the forearm.

-123

[CLFNole]

Sow refers to arm, whereas kiu is a bit more specific referring to forearm. So will use kuwn sow others kwun kiu just the same as some use poon kiu versus poon sow.

Its all semantics.

Peace.

[firepalm]

CLF Palms;

Cum Jeung - Cover Palm (defensive)
Liu Jeung - Upward Lifting Palm (defensive)
Pak Jeung - Slap Palm (offensive & defensive)
Pow Jeung - Upperward Strike Palm (offensive)
Tuei Jeung - Push Palm (offensive)
Chung Jeung - Diagonal Downward Strike Palm (offensive)
Pek Jeung - Chopping Palm (offensive)
Man Ji Jeung - Straight Downward Palm (offensive)

Think that pretty much is the complete list I know of... ;)

[TenTigers]

when we perform the butterfly palms while cross stepping it is called kay lin bo lien wan dip jeurng, unicorn steps, continuous butterfly palms, but I have also heard it called seurng fei wu dip-twin flying butterflies. This better describes the action of both hands moving together. Some schools play this in the sets this way-the hands are almost joined. I don't play it this way, and separate my hands and they join at the hip-similar to the way actual butterflies come together and separate and come together again-just musing on this. I have also seen some schools do the first step over and "block" with the fibgers facing each other, others with one hand in guard, the rear as a chopping palm, still others with the rear hand turned out, more like poon kiu. Each one serves a different application.
One teacher taught me to have the read hand turned in as in a crane's beak, and flip out as if you would block, then catch the leg, the crane's beak, avoiding a handfull of broken fingers. In retrospect, he is the only person I have seen do this. Maybe he learned by experience.? ;-o
Whad do you guys call the double palm strikes to the body with the palms held slightly upward? I have heard many names for this-seurng chaan jeurng, seurng fei fung jeurng? seurng (something jeah(?) jeurng? double tile roof palms?
Also we do a technique that looks like a rising block with a simultaneous uppercut-used for jamming a person throwing Gwa/Kup. We call it Ching Loong Hawn Yuet-Green Dragon Looks at the Sky? Not sure where I picked up that phrase-either Hung or CLF-my teacher did both, so much of my terminology is mixed as well.

[TenTigers]

As far as terminology goes, often in Hung Kuen, the names are very important as they describe energy, application,attitude, etc. For example, Hungry Tiger Seizes the Lamb is in my school, used to attack someone, rather than defend-lamb signifying that the opponent is more passive. Fierce Tiger Overpowers the Wolf, although appears exactly the same in the form, implies that two ferocious predators are fighting-thus you are being attacked, and your technique jams and crashes through his defenses. Fierce Tiger Descends the Mountain, my Sifu taught with the "guard" hand held lower and it is used as a takedown, using your horse behind his. He is in a strong stance, but you can take him down with your placement and structure.
I also had a non-Asian teacher who did not speak Chinese-and he did not know any of the terms for the moves in English either.He found them silly and useless. In retrospect-his understanding of the usage was somewhat lacking , possibly as a result of this.

[kei lun]

Whats Mahn Ji Keun? Ive never heard of it.