Don't want to be disrespectful but...

[Chief Fox]

I think my school might just be all about collecting forms.

A little background:
I've been at my current school for 3 years. I am a mid ranking student. There are only 4 students above my level and 3 others at my current level. I know 23 forms but I must admit, I don't know all of them how I would like. In fact I don't know most of them how I would like. I really like the school but sometimes I feel like my sifu is giving me and the other students at my level too much material. So much that we could never learn all about a form because we now have to move on to the next one. My friend calls it the inch deep mile wide approach. I would much rather prefer the inch wide mile deep approach.

Anyway, I'm not interesting in switching schools. There's not a lot of options. I'm considering just telling my sifu that I want to slow down and really focus on what I have.

Don't get me wrong about the school. We spar regularly but it's difficult to apply what we learn in forms to sparring because there is so much material. I feel like I know nothing at the level at which I should.

Any thoughts?

[MasterKiller]

I thought you had a steep curriculum last time you posted your testing requirements. Seemed like an awful lot of forms.

Are ALL of those forms required to advance rank?

How many of those 23 are weapons?

[HearWa]

Wow, this should be interesting. That's exactly the situation I'm in, except I know seven forms and I've been there approximately six years. I can do the forms, and can even do a few rather well (I've won a few first place trophys for form performances).

The problem is I hardly know any of the applications. I've been told for the past few years that the applications will come after black (if I work at it, I can go for my three day black sash grading in the middle of no where early next summer), and that I should have enough "experience" to interpret the forms myself.

I also dislike the fact that the school does many different styles (hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fuy, san shou, preying mantis, tai chi, etc.) without specializing.

Thanks for letting me get that off my back and out in the open. :)

[SifuAbel]

Well, its unfortunate that some of you are getting too much information, poor dears.
:rolleyes:

Here's a hint, start using the old noodle and see what fits in the negative space. Some moves are obvious, some not. BUT, when you know what its for it becomes very simple after all.

Once you start seeing it doesn't matter what form you do , you will understand on site.

[Indestructible]

I really hate these threads! Not that I dislike the posters , but I hate the idea of learning a form but not being taught application!

Fast flowing forms should go hand in hand with single fighting movements. In a form, a prearranged fight sequence, you dont have time to complete fighting movements. For example; seize, reel, joint lock, bone break, take down. Forms should be about learning to transition between fighting movements and opponents. As an example, if I am hitting A and B throughs a punch, how do I deal with that incoming force? So maybe in a form I have time to only block, hit and clear without going into takedowns or other avenues. Forms should be streamlined fighting movements from which we pull out single fighting movements and work every possible variation.

If you are not being taught application, your time is being wasted. Now, I understand that not every application should be handed to you on a silver platter, and even my teacher will show us the beginning applications and make us work out how to complete the movements. But, come on, no application till black sash?! In my school that could be anywhere from 4-6 years! Forget that.

[Chief Fox]

Indestructible, We are taught application at my school. We are also encouraged to try to find our own applications within forms. If there was no application I probably would have left by now. My problem is the amount of material without being able to focus on any one thing.

SifuAbel, you have an interesting perspective. Maybe I should look at it from your point of view.

MK, yes, on testing day I have to do all of the forms. Right now, 4 of the forms are weapons forms. For my next level I will learn an open hand form, my second broadsword form and my second staff form. So next test I will do 26 forms with 6 of those being weapons forms.

I guess my complaint is, that's a SH!T load of forms. How can I expect myself to learn and extract when I am always learning a new form.

Maybe I'm just at one of those natural points where I have to decide to either slow down or step up to the next level.

Not really sure I'm looking for an answer here but any input is welcome.

Thanks for the responses so far.

SifuAbel, I would like to hear more of what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

20 open-hand forms after 3 years is too much, IMO. I only have 16 hand sets after 7 years, and I don't plan on ever really learning any more. Heck, I only serioulsly practice 10 of them and keep the others up just for teaching purposes.

Those 10 core sets have all the applications I'll ever be able to reasonably maintain.

[mickey]

Hello Chief Fox,

It is rare to see you talk about forms. It seems that your Sifu has the "understanding" that your real practice is taking place at home; especially, if this is a commercial school. You may need to develop a practice schedule for them on your own that would involve cycling the forms that you want to concentrate on. You may want show up at other times beside your class time to put in your practice.

Does you school allow for that?

mickey

[Willow Palm]

This is some what off topic but here goes;

I want to thank everyone for being apart of these forums. Most of the time I read things I know already but it keeps it fresh. The most important to me is people sharing their experience, both the good and the bad, because I'm going through or have gone through the same ups and downs. I suppose everyone needs to identify with others and I just wanted to thank you.

Sorry to cheese on you,

Warren

[Chief Fox]

Hello Chief Fox,

It is rare to see you talk about forms. It seems that your Sifu has the "understanding" that your real practice is taking place at home; especially, if this is a commercial school. You may need to develop a practice schedule for them on your own that would involve cycling the forms that you want to concentrate on. You may want show up at other times beside your class time to put in your practice.

Does you school allow for that?

mickey
I do practice on my own. I have to. I could show up at the school to practice but it's not exactly close to my house. I also have a wife and 2 kids that I need to spend time with.

Right now I'm trying to go to class twice a week and practice on my own at lunch twice a week.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[SevenStar]

Wow, this should be interesting. That's exactly the situation I'm in, except I know seven forms and I've been there approximately six years. I can do the forms, and can even do a few rather well (I've won a few first place trophys for form performances).

The problem is I hardly know any of the applications. I've been told for the past few years that the applications will come after black (if I work at it, I can go for my three day black sash grading in the middle of no where early next summer), and that I should have enough "experience" to interpret the forms myself.

I also dislike the fact that the school does many different styles (hung gar, shaolin, choy lay fuy, san shou, preying mantis, tai chi, etc.) without specializing.

Thanks for letting me get that off my back and out in the open. :)

In my longfist days, my school sounded just like hearwa's. we learned at a decent rate, but never really learned the applications to the forms. our sigung would come in town for a seminar and show applications to a form, and the black sashes would be amazed, because they had never seen them. To this day, I know applications that they (the black sashes) don't know because they became apparent to me when I started training judo and working with the shuai chiao guys.

[Mortal1]

"I think my school might just be all about collecting forms."

Most schools are gulity of this. I know about ten forms after 7 years of training. Similar to master killer in age and training time.

"A little background:
I've been at my current school for 3 years. I am a mid ranking student. There are only 4 students above my level and 3 others at my current level. I know 23 forms but I must admit, I don't know all of them how I would like. In fact I don't know most of them how I would like. I really like the school but sometimes I feel like my sifu is giving me and the other students at my level too much material. So much that we could never learn all about a form because we now have to move on to the next one. My friend calls it the inch deep mile wide approach. I would much rather prefer the inch wide mile deep approach."

I like the mile deep approach. Dig a mile deep in your basics. The forms start to make more sense. Tell your sifu you want to polish a certain form for a while.

"Don't get me wrong about the school. We spar regularly but it's difficult to apply what we learn in forms to sparring because there is so much material. I feel like I know nothing at the level at which I should."

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Your forms don't transfer into the applications you are looking for. The best thing about forms is that it increases agility and builds endurance(especially if you do the whole thing like an animal). True there are some apps but they aren't what most non-chinese think. We are looking for direct applications from the movement. There aren't any direct apps many times. That is why they say you'll figure them out. Kicking punching and moving faster is the application. In certain instances it will look like the form.

When I started at my wingchun school I sparred quickly do to my experiance. I did well even though my first three years of training was only forms and some limited pad work. I was faster, my kicks were faster. That was all I needed to out do my opponent. That was the application. Being able to do phsyically what ever my brain tells my body faster and more powerfully then my opponent. Body mind unity.

"Any thoughts?"

Stop worrying about apps and do the forms fast and hard. Not slow trying to remember the moves as you go.

[SevenStar]

I also have a wife and 2 kids that I need to spend time with.


Why? :confused:

[lkfmdc]

you have two kids? you've probably already spent enough time with your wife :D

j/k. don't take offense ;)

[SevenStar]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Your forms don't transfer into the applications you are looking for. The best thing about forms is that it increases agility and builds endurance(especially if you do the whole thing like an animal). True there are some apps but they aren't what most non-chinese think. We are looking for direct applications from the movement. There aren't any direct apps many times. That is why they say you'll figure them out. Kicking punching and moving faster is the application. In certain instances it will look like the form.

I doubt it. If that were the case, forms never woulda been created; you can achieve those things via apparatus training, fighting, drilling, etc.

[Judge Pen]

Do you think your school is about collecting forms? Hmmm.

Anyway, I have had a similar experience as SevenStar, I learned 19 long forms in 3 years at SD, but I didn't have the time to pull out all the applications. Some were obvious and I proactively set my mind to pulling out applications, but some moves remained a mystery until. . . . I started playing with other hands-on arts (specifically aikido and what they called Brazilian jujitsu although it was really just a set of ground grappling techniques not affiliated with the Graces). That opened up a new world of applications for me.

Not to say that I wouldn't have pulled more out eventually. I think that the forms I learned 10 years ago are the ones that I do well, the more recent ones are works-in-progress.

Oh, SD's long forms at the pre-black level are generally shorter in length than many of the forms you guys learn, too so 19 pre-black SD forms is probably the equivalent of 10 long fist forms.

[Chief Fox]

I doubt it. If that were the case, forms never woulda been created; you can achieve those things via apparatus training, fighting, drilling, etc.
I agree. There's tons of stuff in forms. My Sifu has told me, "years from now, you'll still be pulling new applications out of these forms". I believe him, I see new stuff all the time.

[Indestructible]

...There aren't any direct apps many times....

I have to disagree. Forms should be about specific applications. They might be able to be used in more than one way, but they should be specific.

[Chief Fox]

I think we learn the forms properly at my school. We are shown and drill applications and some is left up to the students interpretation. I'm just starting to feel overwhelmed with the amount of forms. It's a lot of information and work to maintain.

[Judge Pen]

I have to disagree. Forms should be about specific applications. They might be able to be used in more than one way, but they should be specific.

To an extent, but it also depends on the body type of an individual. My applications may be different than someone who is 6'5 and 250 lbs. Our bodies move differently, but we are emulating the same movement by learning the same form. The form's applications, to a degree, takes on the strengths and weaknesses of the person learning the form.

[Sifu Darkfist]

there are some styles that only have a couple of forms.
Remember the basics are the most important. Most styles have an upper level form that encompasses most of the system that form is enough to work on for years and years.

I play my own forms that match my ability anyway so i dont have this problem.
I take all the moves that i can apply in modern martial arts and that benefit my body type and i combine them into a long challenging form and train then i mix em up and train again

then i train my students on individual techniques and i stress that they focus on the ones meant for their body

ie 300 pounder not going to fly in the air like a bird for flying kicks etc.

you are right chief ask to slow or stop for a long while regroup and then maybe.

[n.mitch]

If forms are taught and explained correctly then each technique in them should be able to be applied in combat. It is important that you ask your Sifu to explain each move in detail until you understand it, a good teacher will be happy to help. the student is the one who is there paying to learn and understading the technique is most important after all it is selfdefence and you may unfortunetly have to use it for real one day.
It is better to know a few good techniques and be able to apply them correctly than know hundreds of moves yet they crumble under pressure when really needed.
Talk to your Sifu, im sure he will appreciete your feedback

[Ou Ji]

What style is it you do again?

New forms shouldn't neccesarily be introducing all new moves. Some sets are intended to teach things other than new applications. Sometimes it's just variations on moves you already know.

There are fighting sets, training sets, performance sets. Some sets are meant for developing power, some for endurance, some for fighting combos, etc.

Maybe take a look at the common moves throughout the sets you already know and look for the intent of the form. Comparing moves to similar moves in other sets will sometimes leaad to interesting apps.

Basically it seems like you're trying to learn the same thing from every form, the apps onnly. Don't look at them from a purely applications standpoint. Find the intent of the form and make sure you learn that. Later on you can poke around and see what else is in there.

[Matrix]

I think my school might just be all about collecting forms.
..........<snip>...........
We spar regularly but it's difficult to apply what we learn in forms to sparring because there is so much material. I feel like I know nothing at the level at which I should. I think your gut level instincts are telling you something. Trust your feelings. I cannot even begin to understand why you would need 23 forms. It just sounds like "busy work" to me, but that may be my limited thinking.

[viper]

The system i learn only has three i know one only inside and out i ask about the applications. Thats how i learnt jus kept askin and i know the form inside and out and the applications are endless depending on situations. Do u train at home i found that a hour a day forms training is good then doinf the rest of trainin after. I think that is a tonne of forms maybe ur sifu could slow down better to know one form to perfection then a thousand to the second technique.

[SifuAbel]

The best thing about forms is that it increases agility and builds endurance(especially if you do the whole thing like an animal). True there are some apps but they aren't what most non-chinese think. We are looking for direct applications from the movement. There aren't any direct apps many times. That is why they say you'll figure them out.

Way to play the race card. As if you need to be chinese to understand.

WAY OFF on the app thing. Totally wrong , even.

-----------------------------------------------------------


Chief,

Do you know what I mean by "negative space?

[Matrix]

Way to play the race card. As if you need to be chinese to understand. While I can see how you might interpret Mortal1's comments that way, there is some truth the idea that cultural differences affect how we see the world. It does not mean that other cultures cannot understand that POV, rather it may not be the natural tendency. Some things (like colored belts) we see in our schools today we the direct result of attempting to make the arts appeal more to westerners. It's no big deal really. We just need to be aware of it.

[SPJ]

This is an excellent thread with many good posts.

Sifu A: take note of core principles that shown in the forms.

MK: drilling around 10 core techniques that cover the grounds needed.

My own experience is that take all the time you need and more.

Mantis is known to have a collection of many and many forms. Usually different forms stressing different things, such as hand methods, elbow methods, kicking etc.

Shuang Feng in Liu He Tang Lang stressing all kinds of hand methods. It was my favorite.

Sifu D: good points in teaching each student according to his or her need. Mix and match and tailor the forms to your own absolutely.

Eventually we all have to decide which set of moves we prefer or practice more to solve a similar fighting situation.

Thus the name is an art or personal expression etc.

How many forms or moves we have to study? As many as you want.

How many moves to master? A few.

For example, in Ba Gua Zhang, some teacher said that if you have to master just a few things, what would they be?

Answer: the steps Kou Bu and Bai Bu. Single Palm Change or Dan Huan Zhang. Everything else is changing from these.

:D

[Wong Fei Hong]

I think that if we look back a few decades/centuries ago forms where actually what we now deem as styles, you would learn one form and that would be your style , or maybe 2-3 forms which each had a certain flavour. Hung gar wing chun karate etc only had 1-3 forms.

By saying each form has a flavour i mean the reason for the forms , some teach you foot work , some direction changing , some moves , some teach you soft chi flow and some teach you iron body.

If you start learning 23 forms that all teach you how to change direction and hand techniques then there really isnt much difference between the 3rd and the 23rd.

If you learn 2 basic forms one for direction and movement and one for hand blocks and then move to another advanced form which could teach something like iron body sanchin/tit sin kuen. Or a power developement form like naihanchi. Then these forms are needed.

Thats my 2cents

[poorboy]

chief fox:
I noticed you study 7 star mantis. they do have a lot of forms, i think it's around 80 hand sets or 120? I can't remember but it's a high number. I studied 7 star mantis in the 70's in NYC. I learned around 20 hand forms in 5 years. the system had a lot of forms and alot of repetition. I eventually moved on to another system, hung-fut, which suits me better.

[Oso]

a little late, but...

23 is too many. Especially if you aren't getting application instruction.

imo, at the beginning level, that number of forms gives your body too many ways to think at once and you don't develop an instinctive response to particular attacks.

I've always thought one or two forms a year at most is appropriate.

[Willow Palm]

In my experience my sifu has dumped as much information on me as I can take. This has been part of our growing relationship. He has to know how much someone can handle, how fast they learn, how they learn, etc.

Before him, my previous sifu (his student) taught at a much slower pace where everything was as close to perfect before continuing. I took that from him and carried that on to my current sifu. This means I practice seven days a week for at least two hours a day, and class days are closer to four hours.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I've been taught that there are at least five applications to every technique, some have more, and the only way to find these gems is to ask questions and practice-practice-practice. Kung-fu is a lifestyle for many reasons including it takes up most of your time.

My favorite thing to do after getting a form down is working on other students piece by piece. This helps me to visualize the technique while doing a form as well. Without visualization you're just mimicking someone else's moves and staying on a physical level. Visualization will get you in to the fight and will raise your fighting to a mental level. Finally you will forget the moves and merely do what's natural or wu wei, thus making it spiritual where you can truly express yourself and your art.

Best Wishes,
Warren

[SifuAbel]

"This helps me to visualize the technique while doing a form as well. Without visualization you're just mimicking someone else's moves and staying on a physical level. Visualization will get you in to the fight?"

Best part, don't miss it.

This is seeing the negative space.

[SifuAbel]

While I can see how you might interpret Mortal1's comments that way, there is some truth the idea that cultural differences affect how we see the world. It does not mean that other cultures cannot understand that POV, rather it may not be the natural tendency. Some things (like colored belts) we see in our schools today we the direct result of attempting to make the arts appeal more to westerners. It's no big deal really. We just need to be aware of it.


Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

"True there are some apps but they aren't what most non-chinese think. We are looking for direct applications from the movement. There aren't any direct apps many times."

This is just asanine covered by the race card.

[Mortal1]

Everybody is so worried about applications meanwhile many have poor kicks, poor reflexes, poor hand eye coordination and no stamina. Without these things all those apps will get you killed. That is what s wrong with kungfu today. It is more intellectually stimulating to learn apps. But does the practioner have a high level of kungfu basics to apply them? The answer no because basics aren't fun to practice. Flipping a guy around who punches and leaves his arm out so you could do a 2 hit combo exactly fomr the form is more fun for most.

Kungfu fighting isn't going to look like the form. You are not going to drop into a forward(gung bu) stance and double palm blast someone. Then do a back sweep. You need to look beyond that. The low stances are for training the legs to be stronger. Not to drop into horse stance and throw a chambered punch.

Instead of training 10 different styles looking for the one "that fits me" try staying with one style even and humble yourself. A new student doesn't know what is good for him.

We are all way to arrogant about what we "want to learn". Like any of us know going in.

[Oso]

I guess what I'm trying to say is I've been taught that there are at least five applications to every technique, some have more, and the only way to find these gems is to ask questions and practice-practice-practice. Kung-fu is a lifestyle for many reasons including it takes up most of your time.

Best Wishes,
Warren

my first teacher would make sure he showed us 2-3 apps for most moves in a form and then we were supposed to figure out 2-3 more.

we also were taugth to disect and reassemble the individual moves into different sequences to come up with different apps.

[SifuAbel]

Everybody is so worried about applications meanwhile many have poor kicks, poor reflexes, poor hand eye coordination and no stamina. Without these things all those apps will get you killed. That is what s wrong with kungfu today. It is more intellectually stimulating to learn apps. But does the practioner have a high level of kungfu basics to apply them? The answer no because basics aren't fun to practice. Flipping a guy around who punches and leaves his arm out so you could do a 2 hit combo exactly fomr the form is more fun for most.

Kungfu fighting isn't going to look like the form. You are not going to drop into a forward(gung bu) stance and double palm blast someone. Then do a back sweep. You need to look beyond that. The low stances are for training the legs to be stronger. Not to drop into horse stance and throw a chambered punch.

Instead of training 10 different styles looking for the one "that fits me" try staying with one style even and humble yourself. A new student doesn't know what is good for him.

We are all way to arrogant about what we "want to learn". Like any of us know going in.

This all totally non sequitur. We aren't talking about bad basics or style hopping or anything else. We are talking about the number of forms this guy knows. Which is also leading into how one understands them.


"There aren't any direct apps many times."

Maybe in wushu this is the case. The notion that forms are full of do nothing fluff is rediculous. Then again , wushu, go figure. :rolleyes:

[Mortal1]

I know I kind of hijacked this thread!

I just started wushu 2 months ago. I just completed the Baji form. I have 6 years of shaolin under monks. I have simultaneusly 3 years of wingchun under Sifu Jose Grados. So please get your facts straight about what I train. For the record everything in wushu has an application. Just not what your thinking. It just doesn't look exactly like the form. Sometimes the app is it just increases your ability to move. I'm suprised more people don't agree with me.

fatherdog

Why do I feel like you haven't added anything intelligent to the conversation? Just shooting stuff down and rolling your eyes. I see the point in your argument now look for the point in mine. And discuss it with the forum. If I didn't like anyone I disagreed with about something. I wouldn't like anyone. :p

[Chief Fox]

At my school we do a blend of 7 star Mantis, Long Fist and Hung Gar. We even do some Wing Chun drills. What I'm noticing is that while there are similarities some of the styles/forms contradict each other.

Like I said earlier, I believe that we follow the correct approach when learning forms and their applications.

I don't just copy movements, I think about application and visualize while doing a form. I'm sorta at the point where I'm starting to think "what's the point in learning another form when I could probably spend the next 10 years working on what I have now?".

It's frustrating because I kinda feel like I'm being pushed through.

I've pretty much decided that I'm just going to focus on what I have now through the new year. Then early next year I'll begin to work on the next form.

[SevenStar]

Everybody is so worried about applications meanwhile many have poor kicks, poor reflexes, poor hand eye coordination and no stamina. Without these things all those apps will get you killed. That is what s wrong with kungfu today. It is more intellectually stimulating to learn apps. But does the practioner have a high level of kungfu basics to apply them? The answer no because basics aren't fun to practice. Flipping a guy around who punches and leaves his arm out so you could do a 2 hit combo exactly fomr the form is more fun for most.

As stated, you don't need forms for that. That is covered by conditioning drills.



Kungfu fighting isn't going to look like the form. You are not going to drop into a forward(gung bu) stance and double palm blast someone. Then do a back sweep. You need to look beyond that. The low stances are for training the legs to be stronger. Not to drop into horse stance and throw a chambered punch.

I do it all the time. :p

seriously, everyone knows it won't look like the form. That doesn't mean there are no applications there. "shoot the bow" looks like you are blocking someone's arm high then punching them in the solar plexus. However, when looking at one of several applications, you see that it is a throw - it's a fireman's carry. Does it look exactly like a textbook fireman's? Nah. but drilling the technique repeatedly will help your entry for the throw.

[SifuAbel]

"what's the point in learning another form when I could probably spend the next 10 years working on what I have now?"

Ok, so read the same book for the next ten years, or see the same movie, or stay in one room, or eat just one kind of thing..... Its limiting.


"I have 6 years of shaolin under monks. "

Pft, More wushu............ :rolleyes:

"I'm suprised more people don't agree with me."

I'm not. Your stance basically is that your form work is full of stuff you can't apply. imperfectly or otherwise. Yes, a form is the perfect expression of a technique, so what?

Hint: Find a better school.

"Just not what [you're] thinking.

Right.............. :rolleyes:

[Rockwood]

Hi, I've learned some internal martial arts.

In the IMA like Ba Gua, the forms are NOT meant to be done with any visualizations. They are NOT supposed to replicate a fight, they are not meant to be picked apart to find applications, they arent for cardio either.

Each of the forms in an IMA system is to train a specific type of power. In chinese they call this "Jin" or "Jing" or "Ching" depending on your spelling. This is the essence, the heart of any particular form.

In Tai Ji there is Peng Jing, Liu Jing, An Jing, etc. These are trained in the forms.

The applications for each form are limitless. The claim I'm making is not that there's no applications for the forms and that they are empty, rather that there are TOO **** many applications for any given form to bother visualizing any specific one.

Screw visualizing an oppontent. Spend that mental effort in finding the Jing, the rhythm, the energy of that particular form. Then get a friend and start using that Jing to beat on him. Apply it hundreds of ways, not just 3-5.

From what I've been taught, the point of forms is not to 'pull out' applications, it's to create the specific kind of power that each form teaches. Work under full contact pressure to create the specific applications.

If your teacher gives you 50 forms that means you now have 50 different essential rhythms, jings, that you can explore and refine. The specific moves of each form are secondary to the jing that they teach. They are probably good ways to apply the Jing in question, but they are the shell, the Jing is the essence.

That's just from what I've heard, perhaps this is different within other schools and styles.

-Jess O

[Mortal1]

SifuAbel

Didn't you have a monkey style vid posted a while ago? If it is the one I'm thinking I didn't see any practical applications there either.

I'm not saying forms are a requirement. I agree with sevenstar. Just do pieces over and over. Either way same result increased agility and athleticism.

So let me ask when someone throws a high punch you crouch down into mabu with fists chambered and throw a punch from horse stance? If not then your not keeping with your form application theory. I know I certainly don't fight that way.

The monks do wushu but they also do traditonal. Its like wushu with power. It certainly isn't straight upi wushu. I'm suprised you don't know this. It says much about you.

You should be more civil going forward. I don't remember attacking you personally. In brooklyn one eye roll is all you would get. Take care.

[SifuAbel]

Yes and no.

Yes, learning the rythms and energies is basic to learning kung fu.

And yes , techniques can applied in myriad fashions once it is understood.

BUT, applied to what? You do have to know what certain moves are trying to accomplish first before you can vary them.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

[SifuAbel]

SifuAbel

Didn't you have a monkey style vid posted a while ago? If it is the one I'm thinking I didn't see any practical applications there either.



In brooklyn,..... pft :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You not seeing application is YOUR problem. I know what I'm doing step by step.

Your ignorance of it doesn't trump my knowledge of it.

[monkeyfoot]

Hey mate interesting post.

I was actually thinking about this the other day. In the end I came to the conclusion that lets say your grading is every 3 months, YOU DONT HAVE TO GRADE!

The whole point of grading is to test what you know and show a good competence at that certain point in your training. So many people see gradings like a set of hurdles that they must dash over to reach the next. They forget that its better to go a bit slower and have all the hurdles standing at the finish line.

Craig

[Chief Fox]

Maybe some of you guys should go start your own forms and application thread.

As far as reading the same book for the next ten years goes, I see your point. But I'm also hearing other people say, the more I study what I have, the more I will get out of it.

Oh, and thanks to everyone for their responses.

[Chief Fox]

Hey mate interesting post.

I was actually thinking about this the other day. In the end I came to the conclusion that lets say your grading is every 3 months, YOU DONT HAVE TO GRADE!

The whole point of grading is to test what you know and show a good competence at that certain point in your training. So many people see gradings like a set of hurdles that they must dash over to reach the next. They forget that its better to go a bit slower and have all the hurdles standing at the finish line.

Craig
Good point.

[SifuAbel]

As far as reading the same book for the next ten years goes, I see your point. But I'm also hearing other people say, the more I study what I have, the more I will get out of it.


In school, you studied more than one subject at a time. You were either a good student or a bad one. I'm sure you can handle a little variety. You can use more than one foot at a time, correct? There is nothing that is written that says you can't practice what you know and learn new things too.

[Judge Pen]

In school, you studied more than one subject at a time. You were either a good student or a bad one. I'm sure you can handle a little variety. You can use more than one foot at a time, correct? There is nothing that is written that says you can't practice what you know and learn new things too.

I agree with this. In fact, forms I learned five years ago are the ones that start to gel today. I continue to do them enough so that they come together and learning new forms can give me a new perspective on what I've already learned and help me polish them up even more. And by polish I mean form, intent, power, and practicality of movement.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Chief Fox,

Realizing that you are not being disrespectful to your school/sifu, could you please tell me what style you train in and what is your school/sifu?

Thanks.

[Chief Fox]

At my school we do a mix of different styles consisting of 7star Praying Mantis, Long Fist, Hungar and a little Wing Chun.

I'd like to keep my sifu's name and the name of his school out of this discussion.

[thothor]

I think that the two most important reasons for forms are technique and reflex. And I think that for both reasons they should be practised lots and lots. I always took it as a given that it is essential to practice them at home as well as at training. The difficulty with practicing at home is u can fall into some bad habits, only to get to training to find u have been doing it all wrong and start again.

But I think it is important to do them many times so that the body can learn/train itself how to do it. Learn to do it properly at first (or at least close enough for the given level) and then do it again and again and again until it becomes reflex. If it is not a reflex. You will forget it. If it is, u don't need to remember it, it just happens, which is essential in a real fight.

I realise that it is quite common that close enough is good enough in many, if not most schools, but I think that defeats the purpose entirely. I also realise there are reasons why this is done, and some of them good. But still...

That is my humble opinion.

[ninja]

I believe it's important to balance forms practice and single movement training. Forms burn the abstraction of fighting techniques into your body and brain. In my style of Shaolin 6 harmony we practice 5 fist forms. We learn the fist forms along with most of the applications. But we spend most of our time training single techniques that have been pulled from the form. When practicing the whole form the focus should be on body movement (shen fa), foot work (bu fa) and intention (meaning application). When these 3 come together smoothly it is very special site. When practicing the single techniques you should think heavily about intention, speed, power, and a compact natural alive body.
I agree with Mortal1 in that knowing many forms and applications doesn't mean you have gong fu. To have or to own your movements is a different thing from knowing the application. You must have the basic conditioning to move fast and strong with agility. People know many upper body fighting methods but their shoulders and back are stiff and slow. You have to know what you need, where you are weak. My teacher recently told me that my movement is correct and "straight" but not special, no "shen fa". It's certainly better to know a small amount and train it well. I don't agree with that "reading a book for 10 years analagy". The best gung fu comes from repeating even when you are bored of it. You have to transform your movement into something special. If you become bored quickly from repetiton then you may find it difficult to achieve a high level of gung fu. Maybe a better analogy is eating.

[Mortal1]

Wow a nice repectful person that doesn't talk to people like their stupid. I agree with your whole post in its entirety. Good post.

[Matrix]

This is just asanine covered by the race card. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If you want to see race-cards you'll see'em. Hey, it worked for OJ. :rolleyes:

[Matrix]

At my school we do a mix of different styles consisting of 7star Praying Mantis, Long Fist, Hungar and a little Wing Chun. A little Wing Chun??? I'm curious as to how that would work. Can you tell me more?

[Chief Fox]

We do some wing chun two man drills for sensitvity and positioning. They're actually pretty cool. They all counter chain punches. After you progress to a certain point with the hand drills we then add a side step with a kick. We also do some trapping drills. That is the extent of the wing chun training.

[Matrix]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Willow Palm]

Chief,

It sounds like you've got everything pretty much under control. Not to insult you by comparison to myself, but I hit a point like that albeit brief, and I stuck it out and have been better for it.

Another student/friend of mine reached a point where he learned much but didn't practice it as he should. This resulted in him not learning more so he could perfect what he had. The thought of not learning a new form ate him up despite what he told others. He practiced for a while, never seeing or gaining anything more from the forms he had, because he was constantly looking forward instead of inward.

Long story short, keep doing what you're doing and keep me posted. I'm interested to see how it's going.

Happy Training,
Warren

[Chief Fox]

I went to class today and my frame of mind/point of view was totally different. I was really focused on what we were doing. I worked two of my forms, sparred a little and had a great class. This thread has helped me to re-evaluate what I want out of my kung fu training.

1. Be physically fit and healthy, body and mind.
2. Know how to defend myself and the ones I love.
3. Have fun.

I have the rest of my life to work on this stuff. In that time I'm sure I'll learn some forms very well and others not so well. I will probably gravitate towards certain forms because they fit me better physically. The key is that I continue to remember the above 3 points.

I realize now that the problem wasn't with my school or my sifu. The problem was with me. I think maybe I was putting too much pressure on myself to learn everything as quick as possible and to learn it all as in depth as I could with out stopping to focus on or ponder what has already been learned.

My sifu always refers to himself as a student and talks about how he is always still learning. I intend to adopt this attitude towards my own training.

Thanks again to everyone that has responded.

[bing bang pow]

You may want to think about the movements you are doing in these forms, carfully, in your own mind.
Can you see any self defense applications in the forms. How can you change and adjust those moves to better suite your fighting and self defense.

You may also practice the forms slowely, like Tai Chi and examine what you FEEL. What is happening to your Mass as you slowely move through the forms.

How are you moving.

Can you examine why your teacher may have taught you to move the way he has.

Take responsibility for your training. Use your own mind and keenly observe your movement. If you can do this on a level that you have not in the past, you may learn a tremendous amount.

Pay attention to your entire body moving. If you cannot do this, then pay attention to your hands and feet. This is an advanced way to look and practice forms, but you can benifit greatly by this attention to detail.

[Mortal1]

Chief Fox

You are a cool dude with a good attitude. You have excepted critism graciously in hte past. I'm glad this thread was able to help you get a new perspective on your training.

I agree with your list. I'm not training to be a cage fighter. I'm training to improve myself.

Keep up the positive attitude.

Anthony