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View Full Version : OT: Terror Alerts are fake



MasterKiller
10-13-2005, 06:35 AM
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Nexus-Terror.wmv

Vash
10-13-2005, 08:00 AM
Definetly raises some much-needed questions.

CaptinPickAxe
10-13-2005, 08:03 AM
So, you mean to tell me that the government uses a color scale to incite fear amongst the population to control us?


Noooooooooo..............G Dub is a saint....he'd never do such a thing

MasterKiller
10-13-2005, 08:07 AM
I've been saying the Bush Admin manipulates the Terror Alerts since day 1, but now that Bush has a 39% approval rating the media FINALLY seems to be growing some nuts and challenging this guy and his scandal-ridden, power-abusing administration.

Next stop: IMPEACHMENT

Vash
10-13-2005, 08:12 AM
Since he didn't put his peepee in a third shift Olive Garden waitress, and because he speaks to God, it won't happen.

He lied and continues to lie to the American people, not for counter-intelligence, not to protect us, but to preserve power. That in and of itself should be grounds for removal from office.

Oso
10-13-2005, 08:12 AM
What amazes me the most is that anyone believes anything that comes from the govornment. It doesn't really matter who's in office, does it? They are all gonna lie and serve the big industries that put them there.

chaiwai
10-13-2005, 08:59 AM
What amazes me the most is that anyone believes anything that comes from the govornment. It doesn't really matter who's in office, does it? They are all gonna lie and serve the big industries that put them there.
You are right, but what can we do about that?

MasterKiller
10-13-2005, 09:06 AM
You are right, but what can we do about that? Neuter all registered Republicans.

Oso
10-13-2005, 09:15 AM
Make assasination of political figures acceptable. i.e. some sort of real accountability for their actions.

Let them have as many armed guards as they want.

If a really discontented constituent has the skills to make the hit then good on him or her.




The dumbest group of people is the idiots who insist on 'voting their conscious'. There are really only 2 parties. I don't see there being a viable 3rd party contender ever. The democrats and the republicans both like it the way it is. Wasting a vote on someone who has no chance of winnning is ridiculous.

Vash
10-13-2005, 09:25 AM
Neuter all registered Republicans.

Masterkiller's MMA training has given him BJJ-level correct.

Mortal1
10-13-2005, 09:32 AM
Go ahead and try!

I love how you guys go to an obvious anti bush blog site and take things that they say for fact. lol And bush lied! lol Those guys are slanderers.

Then all the libs say bush didn't do enough to prevent september 11th.

Guys stop getting your facts from these wacky liberal websites.

I hope Hillary runs for prez. That will garantee a repub in office!

And thats all I have to say.

Vash
10-13-2005, 09:34 AM
I hope Hillary runs for prez.

Oi.


And thats all I have to say.

Yay.

Oso
10-13-2005, 09:40 AM
Go ahead and try!

I love how you guys go to an obvious anti bush blog site and take things that they say for fact. lol And bush lied! lol Those guys are slanderers.

Then all the libs say bush didn't do enough to prevent september 11th.

Guys stop getting your facts from these wacky liberal websites.

I hope Hillary runs for prez. That will garantee a repub in office!

And thats all I have to say.


they all lie.

at that level they have lost all caring for anything but power.

neither 'side' is immune to that.

MasterKiller
10-13-2005, 09:41 AM
Go ahead and try!

I love how you guys go to an obvious anti bush blog site and take things that they say for fact. lol And bush lied! lol Those guys are slanderers.

Then all the libs say bush didn't do enough to prevent september 11th.

Guys stop getting your facts from these wacky liberal websites.

I hope Hillary runs for prez. That will garantee a repub in office!

And thats all I have to say.

I hope a Republican is in office next term: John McCain.

Of course, he would have been in office the last two terms if not for Rove's slander campaign against him in the 2000 primaries.

BTW, that "obvious wackly liberal website" video was from MSNBC. :rolleyes:

chaiwai
10-13-2005, 09:47 AM
To get into the office they must say, what ever appeals to the majority. Now what they believe in. Just like we may like high kicks, but will kick low because that is what will lead to a win. No body cares about you. No one ever did and no one ever will. How can they, they don't even know you.
Your friends, famility, teachers may care, but they can't do much on that level. So do what you must for your self.
And also- Keep believeing in the myth that vote counts. Haha

fa_jing
10-13-2005, 04:15 PM
refuse to recognize the government. Tough, because it requires mass action that there are inherent difficulities in organizing. Not least of which is the fact that most people in the US and other democracies are sold on the idea of voting for change.

SimonM
10-13-2005, 04:53 PM
Neuter all registered Republicans.

Nawh. You Americans just have to exercise your constitutional obligation to overthrow a tyrant. After you do that make like Cuba and form a socialist state. ;)

MonkeySlap Too
10-13-2005, 05:35 PM
And that has worked so well. 10 million murdered by 'socialism' - not enough for you bucky? I love socialists. On a shish-ke-bab. You b@stards killed my family in Hungary for your corrupt gangster governments. You think what we have here is bad - you have no f@cking clue. First the left removes our history, then they push moral equivilancy, then they seek to destroy the pillars of our society. The soviets are defeated, but thier poison lives on. Read Lenin. I have. May the b@stard rot in hell.

Honestly, I'm no neo-con, but when the other choice is John Kerry (I mean HFG yer kidding, right? This guy got LOWER scores at Yale than Bush...) I don't see any other choice. 8 years of Clinton was bad enough.


So come get some puppies. We'll see who gets castrated.

On the other hand OSO is correct in a way. The Dems and Repubs have worked hard the past 70 years to make the bar so high on a local level that other parties can't form. Woodrue Wilson had a famous quote once on the topic of who really has the power... I'll go look for it.

However, we still have thr freedom to debate, to engage, and to change hearts and minds. Unfortunately the looney left keeps the discussion so absurd that this seems impossible.

rogue
10-13-2005, 06:24 PM
Psssst, The towers were destroyed from within. The planes were flown by Isreali commandos, man never landed on the moon, Merryprankster is the love child of Gene and Barbara Bush. Pass it on.

Ben Gash
10-14-2005, 02:01 AM
However, voter apathy is what sustains the two party system. If half the people who don't vote backed an independent candidate, then they'd be president. The idea that a vote for an independent is "wasted" is a great weapon for the 2 parties.
Bush doesn't need to "hang on to power", he's not going to be impeached and he can't stand again. He'll be gone in 3 years and everyone gets to vote for some other privaledged white guy from Yale to look after multinational buisness interests.

Kristoffer
10-14-2005, 03:01 AM
dance puppets, dance!

kind regards
/The evil Socialist

Ps. Sorry for wacking ur hungarian family Monkey.

count
10-14-2005, 03:36 AM
Get over it guys. Your own fear cost you any power you had to affect change. Gay marriage, and Osama's last minute rant from the grave gave control to the very people who are taking your freedom away. Sure, let's allow Shrub to stack the courts with his holy rollers. Than they can make it the law of the land when it comes to any rights you had left. Sure, we can still debate as long as you don't support Gay rights, Women's rights, your own right to privacy between your doctor, clergy, librarian, spouses, teachers, lawyers, representatives ............... Gasoline and home heating oil costs twice is much as it did. Alaska has become their own little 'nookular' weapons playground, drilling ground, hide out. Iraq has become their own farm for harvesting this generation of fear mongering, terrorists to help keep you down. Sure, they cut taxes, but now their going to take your mortgage deduction from you to pay for their big business free ride. No child left behind?? Of course not, they need your children for the military. Sure they gave you prescription drugs benefits. But the drugs they mandate are killing you and making the pharmaceuticals rich. Gone are the days when the Republicans stood for things that mattered. Smaller government, less taxes, checks and balances. Now they stand for what's really important. Cronyism.

Don't expect any more truth from the mainstream media than you would get from Shrub. They're just a tool.


In the words of John Wang
"Are you scare yet?"

[/rant]

count
10-14-2005, 03:38 AM
BTW, bird flu has already jumped to humans and human to human transmission. Is your government telling you?:rolleyes:

Oso
10-14-2005, 04:58 AM
However, voter apathy is what sustains the two party system. If half the people who don't vote backed an independent candidate, then they'd be president. The idea that a vote for an independent is "wasted" is a great weapon for the 2 parties.
Bush doesn't need to "hang on to power", he's not going to be impeached and he can't stand again. He'll be gone in 3 years and everyone gets to vote for some other privaledged white guy from Yale to look after multinational buisness interests.

voter apathy is a different subject.

My point was, when in an election it is obvious that there are only going to be two huge front runners then it is a waste to vote for someone who can't possibly win.

Then, the responsible voter, needs to get realistic about which side of the fence he/she is really on and at least vote against the greater evil.

cam
10-14-2005, 05:28 AM
I just think it's a shame that our children and grand-children will probably grow up in a world that's much worse off then the one we grew up in.

Kymus
10-14-2005, 05:36 AM
Then all the libs say bush didn't do enough to prevent september 11th.


He didn't. Think you can disprove that? Do you know what executive order W199i was?

Kymus
10-14-2005, 05:42 AM
Psssst, The towers were destroyed from within.

:rolleyes:

So says firefighters that were there as well as wittnesses. (http://prisonplanet.com/911.html#bombs)

SimonM
10-14-2005, 05:50 AM
And that has worked so well. 10 million murdered by 'socialism' - not enough for you bucky?

Capitalist states have murdered plenty more than 10 million.



I love socialists. On a shish-ke-bab.


Bring it. I'm in PRC. :D

Kymus
10-14-2005, 05:50 AM
But the drugs they mandate are killing you and making the pharmaceuticals rich.

Accourding to a 2003 study done by Dr's Gary Null PhD, Carolyn Dean MD ND, Martin Feldman MD, Debora Rasio MD, Dorothy Smith PhD - entitled Death By Medicine, 100,000 to 200,000 people died due to adverse drug reactions on medications that the FDA said was "safe".

Statistics prove prescription drugs are 16,400% more deadly than terrorists (http://www.newstarget.com/009278.html)

Following deplorable attacks in London, pharmaceuticals are still more deadly than terrorists (http://www.newstarget.com/009335.html)

Let's not forget Bush's New Freedom Initiative (http://www.fightcps.com/articles/newfreedom-2004.html)!

SimonM
10-14-2005, 06:08 AM
PS: I am a socialist.
Idon't know anybody in Hungary.
I have never killed a Hungarian.
I don't know anyone who has ever killed a Hungarian.
I have plenty of very close native friends.
People who held Capitalist economic philosophies slaughtered their ancestors.

Perhaps we should put all the capitalists on a spit.

Glass Houses... Stones. :p

Mr Punch
10-14-2005, 07:26 AM
And that has worked so well. 10 million murdered by 'socialism' - not enough for you bucky? I love socialists.I take it you are talking about the former USSR? They were nominally one kind of socialists. Doesn't mean all socialists and socialist ideals are the same. And how many millions have been killed in the name of say Catholicism, or worse, the present's corporatism? Just because it's not armies marching over homes, and there is no name or a single identity (you believe in capitalism? Look up the definition and show me a capitalist country in existance now...! ) to pin the blame on, doesn't mean that millions of people aren't being killed now, and the freedoms, lives and livelihoods of future generations squandered, eroded and irrepairably damaged.

Socialism is another scapegoat to avoid the blame on greedy human nature: here's one for ya, the evil 'socialists' in the former USSR held many of the same things ideologically sacrosanct in terms of direct human relationship to freedom as some of the pushers of unregulated 'free-market' corporate globalisation.

Scapegoats are for idiots.


You b@stards killed my family in Hungary for your corrupt gangster governments. LOL... Who did? The 'socialists'! All of them! Buuuurn the witch!!! :D :p


First the left removes our historyAs do the right. The Nazis, the holocaust revisionists. And where are Bush's records from the army, from his arrest? And where are the open discussions on Rumsfeld's and Cheney's authorisation on chemical weapons deals to Hussein six months before the invasion of Kuwait?
then they push moral equivilancy, then they seek to destroy the pillars of our society.As do the right, as do the Department of Homeland Security!


Read Lenin. I have. ...However, we still have thr freedom to debate, to engage, and to change hearts and minds. Unfortunately the looney left keeps the discussion so absurd that this seems impossible.I've read Lenin too. And Marx. And knowing them as I did, I can safely say THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT LEFT IN THE US. The democrats are not left. Kerry was not left. Clinton was not left. The loony left are just that: a couple of hundred idiots with no support and again, who have become convenient scapegoats for the failures of the corporatist croniests on the right who have been in power for a very long time (since that bar you were talking about was upped). There is nobody with a significant political voice in modern America to compare to anywhere near as left as Lenin or even the old Labour Party in the UK...

What you do have is...

first the communists and then the Japanese and then the communists and then the tiger economies again and still the communists and then the rogue nuclear states and then the Arabs and then the terrorists and then the French and the otehrs who didn't agree with our option to start a war and then the Chinese (communists and getting more succesful at this corporatism lark!!! :eek: ) and then the Europeans and the liberals and still the Chinese and soon the Indians and the Israelis and hell it's easier if we just call everybody who disagrees with the Non-American Activities Committee terrorists...

shiiiiit, of course some of these were valid, but the point is is it's everybody but the people in the government in the White House How is that?

So repeat after me: we have freedom to debate.
That's right, all repeat after me: we have freedom to debate.

:)

And sure Kerry was an ass. And another corporate puppet croniest moderate rightwing ass at that.

Keep drinking the Kool Aid Monkeyslap.

And that's all from a mildly left-leaning libertarian, before I get labelled a liberal or a socialist or some such bollocks.



BTW, Simon, there's a delete function if you go into 'edit post'.

TonyM.
10-14-2005, 09:04 AM
If anyone hasn't figured out that this is the most evil administration we've ever had they'd have to have their head so far up their fourth point of contact they'll never see daylight.

MonkeySlap Too
10-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Spoken like someone who has never visited a soviet-bloc country. There is no equivilancy between that regime and what we have now.

I'm busy at the moment, but I'll be back to determine if it's the regular or diet drink mix you are swigging...

MonkeySlap Too
10-14-2005, 12:35 PM
And for the record, my family has faced brutality first at the hands of national socialists, then communists. You can't point to a socialist or corporate socialist state that does not execute it's own to force itself on the people. I reject both.

What we have now may not be perfect, but it sure beats the alternative. And we have the option to *try* and make it better.

Make it like Cuba? How is THAT better?

MonkeySlap Too
10-14-2005, 12:43 PM
Simon - how much do the Tibetans love your socialist fun with thier country? Eat any imperialist running dogs in the student cafeteria lately?

Hey, capitalism has it's problems, but I've yet to see anything that compares to the various communist parties. Khmer rougue anyone? There were some REAL humanitarians.

I just can't trust a political movement that involves surrending my will completely to the state. You could argue we fight this battle daily from the left and the right... but at least we can fight it.

Count - which are rights and which are privileges? A Canadian I was speaking to the other day was laughing about how Americans seem to have turned the Constitution into a suicide pact by grossly misunderstanding it. I think he's right.

count
10-14-2005, 01:18 PM
Count - which are rights and which are privileges? A Canadian I was speaking to the other day was laughing about how Americans seem to have turned the Constitution into a suicide pact by grossly misunderstanding it. I think he's right.
Joe,
But is he as familiar with the declaration our country is founded on or our bill of rights that are guaranteed? Let's be honest, this is about who has control. The government, corporations or the people. Aren't all men created equal? Maybe you should have these kind of discussions with fellow Americans instead of our northern cousins. Wouldn't you rather dispute one fact I posted in my rant? Or do you want to debate who has a better understanding of the law?

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and the rest.:p

FuXnDajenariht
10-14-2005, 02:08 PM
voting your conscious is the only way to create a viable "third" party. it has to be done some way some day. we dont have a 2 party system. its one party with 2 different names.

and and.. us benevolent capitalists didn't wipe out the entire native american nation or anything....naaaah...that never happened.....

chaiwai
10-14-2005, 03:19 PM
Psssst, The towers were destroyed from within. The planes were flown by Isreali commandos, man never landed on the moon, Merryprankster is the love child of Gene and Barbara Bush. Pass it on.
Don't tell me that they kill those kittens.

GLW
10-14-2005, 03:19 PM
"voting your conscious"

Does the mean voting when you are awake?

(conscience)

Ben Gash
10-14-2005, 04:43 PM
Tony M showing a wonderful lack of knowledge of his own nation's history there ;)
Oso, how is it responsible voting to vote for a candidate you have no faith in. Even if your vote doesn't ultimately effect the outcome of the election, you will become a significant statistic and effect the political process. If everyone votes for the 2 parties, they'll never change, as they won't see any need to.

Mutant
10-14-2005, 04:55 PM
Bush sux, i hope we impeach the b@stard.

Kymus
10-14-2005, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=FuXnDajenariht]we dont have a 2 party system. its one party with 2 different names. [QUOTE]

The illusion of choice is a wonderfully crafted thing. Run person A against person B and have them argue about issues of little significance, hire on some groups to promote and attack and boom - you got yourself a phoney left/right paradigm. The ****her you stay away from this phoneyness, the more you see how the policies are the same and the motive is the same. It's all the equivalent of WWF wrestlers telling eachother how they're gonna recieve a beat-down. It's utterly pathetic and it's sad that most americans have been sucked into this.

Preview: American Dictators: Doccumenting the Staged Election of 2004 (http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/august2004/082804dictatorspreview.htm)

Oso
10-14-2005, 05:16 PM
voting your conscious is the only way to create a viable "third" party. it has to be done some way some day. we dont have a 2 party system. its one party with 2 different names.

and and.. us benevolent capitalists didn't wipe out the entire native american nation or anything....naaaah...that never happened.....


ok, more clarification on my point:

Yes. Certainly work towards creating something different by supporting a 3rd party if that's your belief. But, if your 3rd party candidate doesn't have a flipping chance in hades of winning on election day, you should make a realistic choice between the two that ARE going to win. I think that it's even smart for that 3rd party candidate to go ahead and support one or the other of the big 2. THAT might even get them more votes the next time as I bet more people would pay more attention to them the next time around. After the election, continue trying to grow your movement.

Rome wasn't built in a day, changing the ****hole of a governmental system that we have now isn't going to happen in one election.

SimonM
10-14-2005, 06:16 PM
BTW, Simon, there's a delete function if you go into 'edit post'.

Yeah it won't let me use the edit function for some reason. :eek:

SimonM
10-14-2005, 06:21 PM
I just can't trust a political movement that involves surrending my will completely to the state. You could argue we fight this battle daily from the left and the right... but at least we can fight it.
.


And if you even spent a WEEK in China you would realize that people do not surrender their will entirelyto the state. They just don't have the opportunity to pick a new dictator once every four years.

Some of the most stubborn, willful, people I know are Chinese.

And as I said before Monkey Slap Too:

Glass houses... Stones.

I don't support what China did to Tibet but it's not really any different from what the USA does in the middle east. The only difference is that the USA sets up puppet administrations instead of ruling directly.

Check out Afghanistan. The current government is nearly as religiously conservative as the Taliban was. The difference? They are friendly to the USA.

SimonM
10-14-2005, 06:25 PM
Rome wasn't built in a day, changing the ****hole of a governmental system that we have now isn't going to happen in one election.

The danger Oso is that Rome changed from a Republic to an Empire and the populace cheered. Look at the roman emperors. There was... mabey... one worthwhile one (Aurelius - meditations hints at a wise man) and a whole lot of nut-jobs.

FuXnDajenariht
10-14-2005, 08:19 PM
yes its up to us to change the system. no one is gonna do it for us. its like a chain reaction. if everyone feels that their gonna waste their vote pretty soon everyone comes to the conclusion that they dont have have a choice but to vote like everyone else and go either red or blue. it takes a few brave people to consistently vote 3rd party. then maybe every year that number will grow and grow. thinking its a waste is self defeating and a cop out. our current political system is our own fault. we get what we work for. and we dont work at all for anything. which is why politicians continue to feed us **** and laugh about it. and we know it and they know it. our politicians are lazy and stupid becuz we are too. we can magically weed out the bs from the truth that our "political rivals" spout but we willingly turn a blind eye when it comes from our own side. we have unbelievable powers to discern when its someone we dont like but we believe anything when a win is on the line. its all about winning and losing. its a ****ed up cycle with no end in sight and nothing to show for it.

TonyM.
10-15-2005, 07:23 AM
Oh, I'm sorry. How could I have forgotten that papist lackey reagon?

MonkeySlap Too
10-15-2005, 02:29 PM
SimonM - you have no idea what you are talking about. The Chinese destroyed Tibet, crushed the culture, and sought to shatter thier national identity. Show me one modern example of the US doing this. If the US behaved like the PRC, it really would be a different world. Karzai's government may be conservative, but it is NOT identical to the Taleban. Girls get to return to school. Women can leave thier homes. No more public executions in the soccer stadiums... they can play soccer again. Your lack of perspective is telling.

Look, show me one 'socialist' country - one with a socialist dictatorship that doesn't commit mass murder. Grow up already.

Count - I'm looking forward to getting together. We can wander off and discuss politics. Personally, I think it's funny that we basically have similar philosophy, but our outward expressions take apparently opposite sides. Worth debating over some beer...

count
10-15-2005, 02:58 PM
"GGggghhhh beer"
Homer Simpson


Ya, sounds about right. I'm looking forward to it too. There's dozens of good Irish pubs in my neighborhood. First pitchers on me. :)

SimonM
10-15-2005, 06:18 PM
SimonM - you have no idea what you are talking about. The Chinese destroyed Tibet, crushed the culture, and sought to shatter thier national identity. Show me one modern example of the US doing this

Pick a first-nation any first-nation.

There is a reason they killed that ******* Custer.

SimonM
10-15-2005, 06:24 PM
Look, show me one 'socialist' country - one with a socialist dictatorship that doesn't commit mass murder. Grow up already.


Cuba had fewer political prisoners BEFORE the states set up that concentration camp at Gitmo. Quite frankly the Cuban people (except for the minority, who leave, come to the United States and happily lie their asses off about how terrible everything is) generally adore Castro, practice democracy at the LOCAL level and have better access to quality health care than we do in Canada! But you can go on believing the propaghanda and lies about it if you like; I doubt you will ever change.

PS: The 1800s are modern. Get some historical perspective.

PPS: I've avoided the second greatest attrocity ever commited by a single nation out of respect for the many Americans I consider friends. Don't make me say it.

PPPS: The Nazis were not socialists.

MonkeySlap Too
10-16-2005, 09:07 AM
Have you been to Cuba? I have quite a few friends who have. I don't think the folks who escape are lieing. If it's so great, how come people aren't free to leave? Why are they held in like one giant Gitmo?

the 1800's are not modern. Certainly on the way to it, as many of the great upheavels, and changes in perspective in the West erupted from that period. But it is not 'modern' sociologically. Get some perspective, Simon.

Dropping nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of American lives and saved Japan from decades of Soviet imperialism. Terrible, yes. I'm no Solomon that I can parse the costs/benefits, especially with prfect 20/20 hindsight. But It sure seemed like a good idea at the time. No need to spare anyones feelings, especially when you are espousing a philosophy with a loarhsome, murderous history and has taken it's place as the killer religion of the 20th century. FWIW - I don't tolerate national socialists either... and the Nazi's were indeed socialists - just not the Marxist kind. Besides social programs, they stand right with you on the mass murder thing...

I just can't stand the haters and killers, and see no reason to call them as I see them. The argument seems to be 'your not perfect, so how dare you stand up to our record of incredible failure and state sanctioned murder/oppression.'

I think human beings can do better than that. And it is intellectually cowardly to tolerate these behaviors in favor of some utopian goal.

MonkeySlap Too
10-16-2005, 09:08 AM
Wouldn't let me edit for some reason...

Should say 'can't parse...' not 'can'

Oso
10-16-2005, 09:47 AM
The danger Oso is that Rome changed from a Republic to an Empire and the populace cheered. Look at the roman emperors. There was... mabey... one worthwhile one (Aurelius - meditations hints at a wise man) and a whole lot of nut-jobs.

i wasn't being literal.

besides, I'm for emperical rule...just as long as we all have the freedom to off the ****er if we don't like him/her.

Why does a group of people supposedly know better than one person would?;)

David Jamieson
10-16-2005, 02:26 PM
I don't think it's so much about just cubans not being allowed to leave. It is just as likely that political policy keeps cubans from being let into other countries.

Aside from that, Cuba being a socialist country has a lower standard of living but no abject poverty. It has no horrendous wealth either, quite a lot of that is because of the embargos that were put in place ages ago.

A couple of things need to happen with Cuba. They need to sort out the property thing with any remainder of the companies that were stripped of their legally owned lands back in the day when socialism was first making a hit there. I believe the Dole company or United Fruit or one of those was a big landholder.

They do have a 98% Literacy rate in Cuba. This is amongst the worlds highest. People aren't starving there, most that are employable are employed and it's a different paradigm. They live in a benign dictatorship that uses socialist ideas to govern.

There's a lot to it obviously, but those are points worth considering.

SimonM
10-16-2005, 04:35 PM
Don't bother David. Monkey Slap Too is convinced that Socialist = evil murderer. No amount of argument is going to convince him otherwise. He is willing to write off the bloody A-Bomb as "Japan saved millions of American lives and saved Japan from decades of Soviet imperialism."

Quite frankly the USA had won already when they dropped the nuke. It did NOT save millions of American lives. It just ended thousands of Civilian Japanese ones. And as for the "decades of Soviet imperialism" that is just so much moonshine.

And for the record MS2 I haven't been to Cuba but a couple of my best friends go there on an almost yearly basis and bring back photos and stories.

I'm done with this thread. I am much too busy to sit here arguing with a brainwashed idiot any longer.

Yum Cha
10-16-2005, 06:42 PM
...You can't point to a socialist or corporate socialist state that does not execute it's own to force itself on the people. I reject both.

What we have now may not be perfect, but it sure beats the alternative. And we have the option to *try* and make it better.

Make it like Cuba? How is THAT better?

Gee, I live in Australia, which is generally considered a socialist state - along the lines of European Social democracies. Nobody gets executed here (unless they go overseas), we're in the top of the OECD for growth (above the US), our medical system is the envy of the world (we develop cures and vaccines, not expensive 'treatments"), and, beer and nekkid wimmen are part of our national identity.

And, I've never seen anybody standing on the streetcorner with a sign saying, "Will work for food."

So, while the sins of Marxist/Lennist socialism and communism are well documented, I hazard to say, it was the government, not the ideology that was the failure.

Facism is the other side of the same evil coin, you know, governemnt getting in bed with business to rule a country for profit at the expense of the population...? Sound familiar?

The real problem is that everybody wants to know what is in it for me TODAY. Too many wear their price tag on their forehead and sell out the the first person that dangles a shiny bauble infront of their dimly lit eyes.

You get the government you deserve. Angry greedy self obsessed people get angry greedy self-obsessed government, it doesn't take much to figure that out.

And, before you start taking strips off Oz, don't fret, we're heading the same direction, brother.

Calling the Democrats Leftist or Socialist, now that's funny...

fa_jing
10-16-2005, 07:54 PM
What's going on in Venezuela right now with Chavez' government is a major development. They call it Bolivarianism but it is much like Bolshivikism. Chavez is a power abuser though. It's like a game of chess down there, and the poor and the rich and those in between are involved in it.

MonkeySlap Too
10-17-2005, 03:06 PM
It comes down to a moral question - for every new government program - are you willing to kill your grandmother for it? Confiscating property is what taxes are all about. And it is done at gunpoint.

Cuba is a brutal, murderous dictatorship. It's citizens are prisonors of the state just like the bad old soviet days. Saying 'yeah. but they got health care.' isn't really a compelling argument for wanting to adopty thier system.

Simon, I'm sorry you can't defend your points or present any of the examples I have asked for... but the history of starte socialism is very clear...

True, there are problems with captitalism, but at least with a nominally transparent republican form of government, you a.) mitigate everypne trying to vote themselves free stuff (and kill thier grandmothers), and b.) allow positive change - even if no one can agree what that is.

But it is greedy *******s who want the state to nanny them rather than take responsibility for themselves that is the source of so many brutal horrible deaths in the name of 'progressive causes.' I can't argue with people who can't defend thier points and ultimately resort to name calling - but they do prove my point.

Philosophically, the question is does unfettered capitaliam work? I'd argue only if you truly eliminated governments from the picture and people could keep what they earned - a rather libertarian philosophy, but one that shows a way out of the 'big man' tribalism that socialism claims to eliminate, but instead resorts to in spades.

As far as health care goes - the U.S. offers a tremendous wealth and breadth of options - with a widely varied market that forces positive innovations and evolution. It is against the law to turn away someone who really needs the help. Charities work to supply care to the poor and eestitute. And while not perfect, this system puts the duty on each of us to keep an eye on our brothers, and have a sense of civic duty, rather than being shiftless lazy punks who just figure the government will handle it.

There is a reason the PRC is turning to capitalism, you know. The lot of the people is improving considerably. While I dog the PRC, I also admire the courage of thier leaders in trying to guide thier country to a first-world status without creating massive unrest and the dissoloution of the country. But the Chinese are a pragmatic people who learn from history. If only Westerners knew thier own history...

Jarhead101
10-17-2005, 03:28 PM
sigh

I go away for a year, and the Liberals are still crying like a baby. And they're still name-calling and bashing as usual. Nothing ever changes, I suppose, which is a GOOD thing, that means more years for Republicans to get the country back on track :p

formerly
YinYangDagger

Mortal1
10-17-2005, 03:47 PM
jarhead101

I bite my tonge everyday. You have to realize they are a bunch of college kids. They are simply relaying what their bitter liberal college professors are telling them. That we America are the biggest evil in the world. Oh and Israel of course.

My friend is a liberal academic who is broke and blames corporate America for his financial failures. He knew he wasn't going to be rich when he took the job. Now he is old an broke and bitter. Just because he is smart he thinks he should make more money. He should examine the game and how to play it and quit his bellyaching. Put that big brain of his to work.

SimonM
10-17-2005, 04:54 PM
A few things Jarhead.

1: I'm not a liberal.

2: I'm not whining. I'm as happy as a pig in sh!t. MS2 is the one moaning "socialists are evil murdering devils waah!" he claims that Cuba is a tyrannical murderous regime, provides NO proof and then complains when I don't prove anything despite the fact that I regularly hold discourse with people who visit Cuba every year.

For that matter most people consider China (where I live) to be much more oppressive than Cuba and since I got here I haven't seen ANY bloody oppression. Zip! Zero! Ayah! This is just stupid.

MonkeySlap Too
10-17-2005, 05:04 PM
Simon:
Why don't you:

a. criticize the government
b. Express your support fr the Dalai Lama

Then watch what happens.

I have an overwhelming body of historical evidence. You have 'your buddies who go to Cuba on vacation.'

I have the mass graves of over 10 million murdered in the last century in the name of the 'progressive' movement. 16 if you include the Nazi's. You point to genral custer.

I point to a country that established the Marshall Plan rather than rule those beaten in a war we did not start. A country that gives more aid, more charitable contributions than any nation in history. I love the imperialist line. Imperialists exact tribute. The U.S. does the opposite.

I can't figure out how so many of today's youth make the jump from 'America has some problems' to 'America is the most evil empire on Earth'. We are no saints, but neither should we be expected to be. Nontheless a great deal of charity pours forth. Our most common expression of force is making sure the shipping lanes are free. I can point to no 'world power' in history that has been as benevolant. Do we sometimes act in our own interest? Sure. Do we sometimes royally screw up? Sure.

Go ask the local party leader to discuss his screw ups. When you get out of labor camp we can have a nice laugh about it.

I call socialists murdering b@stards, because history shows that to be true. Communist, Nazi, whatever - they all act the same when they take power. Show me an example where this hasn't happened. (And if there is one, why is there only one?)

Get some perspective, bucky.

cam
10-17-2005, 06:56 PM
Interesting thing, when you look at the history of Tsarist Russia, any and all European countries, China, U.S. etc.... you find a lot of murderous regimes!
To say that socialism is somehow worse is quite a leap!
Revolutions happen for a reason, too bad the new leaders are quite often just as cruel as the old regimes!
MS2, perhaps you should re-check your history books!

MonkeySlap Too
10-17-2005, 08:08 PM
Just give me those examples. I never said the U.S. was perfect. Just preferable to the murderous socialist regimes the 20th century graced us with. I love how the only defense I receive for socialism s "the U.S, did bad things 120 years ago... SEE! SEE!", yet not one example of a workers paradise that wasn't a nation-sized gulag.

Very intersting, eh?

Jarhead101
10-17-2005, 09:20 PM
LOL good ones MST:

a. criticize the government
b. Express your support fr the Dalai Lama

or C. Tell them you're a member of Falun Gong/Falan Dafa :D

SimonM
10-17-2005, 09:45 PM
Falun Gong are a bunch of deluded cultists following a charismatic leader who has presented himself as a messiah figure... Kind of like the Branch Davidian. Gee what happened to them?

FatherDog
10-17-2005, 09:53 PM
and the Nazi's were indeed socialists - just not the Marxist kind. Besides social programs, they stand right with you on the mass murder thing...

If you're going to call Nazis socialists because they call themselves National Socialists, I'm going to call the Chinese Government Republicans, since they're the People's Republic of China.

Jarhead101
10-17-2005, 10:03 PM
Falun Gong are a bunch of deluded cultists following a charismatic leader who has presented himself as a messiah figure... Kind of like the Branch Davidian. Gee what happened to them?

You are absolutely correct. What happened to the Branch Davidians was a tragedy. But of course, that happened under a Democratic President (Clinton) :p

So what you're saying then, is since these people wanted to follow a leader that wasn't of the "main stream" then they should be killed, correct?

Christopher M
10-17-2005, 10:07 PM
If you're going to call Nazis socialists because they call themselves National Socialists...

Fortuitously, he can also call them socialists because they are an explicit development of socialist theory and share the main features of socialism, such as state control of industry, restrictive trade and immigration policies, etc.

Christopher M
10-17-2005, 10:23 PM
Capitalist states have murdered plenty more than 10 million.

And how many millions have been killed in the name of say Catholicism, or worse, the present's corporatism?

Stalinist Russia alone killed more people by magnitudes than anything you can hang on the entire history of Christianity and liberal economics; this isn't an argument the socialist can win.

BTW, corporatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) is a development of socialist economics, not liberal economics, so it's a rather odd thing to critique in a defense of socialism.


As do the right. The Nazis...

National socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) is also a development of socialist, not liberal economics. So, again, this is an odd remark.


Facism is the other side of the same evil coin

No, fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) is the same side.

Since there appears to be significant confusion as to the characterization of these economic theories, I've provided links in each case which explicitly observe the socialist origins and values of each.

Yum Cha
10-17-2005, 10:44 PM
Fortuitously, he can also call them socialists because they are an explicit development of socialist theory and share the main features of socialism, such as state control of industry, restrictive trade and immigration policies, etc.

The difference between Facism and Socialism?

Facism is the government coluding with capitalists to rule the people and enrich the ruling elite.

Socialism is the people taking over the means of production to eliminate the capitalists and create a government that is responsible for the allocation of capital.

Both ends at the extreme are foolhardy and dangerous, corruption is unique to neither, but somewhere in the middle lies the greatest good for the most people balancing lifestyle, security, innovation and growth.

I think the general contention is that Bush is becoming more facist, as the countervalence from the socialist philosophy becomes weaker. And that he uses misinformation to generate personal fear and xenophobia to further his ends.

That is the Adolf Hitler patented formula for the propogation of power. That and the promise of world domination....

Jar head -

Just remember, it was the "Whiny Liberals" that made America great. Crack open a history book and you'll find your founding fathers were the great liberals of their Century, building a new nation across to the banks of the Mississippi with a freedom and egalitarianism unheard of. And the abolition of slavery was hardly a conservative issue, and then we can look at FDR, JFK, LBJ and toss them up against Reagan (the great "right" hope). Its not even close. Boy, look where you came from and take some pride.

From where I sit, it looks a lot more like the Rightous Right is crying "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" than the left. **** A-rabs around every corner trying to git ya fer no reason at all! Liberal loonies trying to git yer guns, kill your babies and steal yer money to feed crack-mama baby factories and lazy no-account shiftless bums!

Liberty is fragile, and all it takes to lose it is for good men to stand quiet.

Jarhead101
10-17-2005, 11:02 PM
Yum - I know where I come from, and do take pride in it. What I don't take pride in is the Liberal side of my government. And I've read history, thank you, and agree the guys you mentioned are semi-great. And THIS is the reason the Democrat/Liberal side is losing ground, because they have went the other direction than the "famous" Dems you mentioned.

To me, when you speak of a Dem/Lib nowadays, it means they would have us all holding hands and strumming the guitar while swapping spit with another man after we smoked some pot. I will NEVER apologize that I am Pro-God, Pro-Gun, Pro-American, nor will I apologize for being Anti-Gay, Anti-Drug, Anti-Abortion. It's who I am, and NO amount of anyone else's bantering will ever change my mind.

And as far as this comment, you pretty much hit the nail on the head:

**** A-rabs around every corner trying to git ya fer no reason at all! Liberal loonies trying to git yer guns, kill your babies and steal yer money to feed crack-mama baby factories and lazy no-account shiftless bums!

Yum Cha
10-17-2005, 11:23 PM
Jar Head,
Amazing what the powers of marketing and spin in general can do. Convince you that every body that believes in getting and giving a fair go to the average bloke, protecting the weak from the strong economically as well as physically, and chipping in to the pot for those in need becomes a peu-jabbing, pot smoking, baby killing, atheist anarchist.

Truth be known, I reckon neither side has a clue when it comes to ethics in this day and age, and that economic rationalism and religious fundamentalism are the enemy.

I mean, let a baby starve, but be ****ed if you abort one. I guess it comes down to the concept of dead babies one way or the other. Name your poison.

Christopher M
10-17-2005, 11:30 PM
The difference between Facism and Socialism?

Socialism is a category of sociopolitical systems; fascism is one instance in that category. You're falsely treating them like they're comparable concepts; this is called a category error.


Facism is the government coluding with capitalists to rule the people and enrich the ruling elite. Socialism is the people taking over the means of production to eliminate the capitalists and create a government that is responsible for the allocation of capital.

Firstly, you're simply wrong about fascism, which is a working class movement. Please read the references I supplied on these topics, as they cover this and related points, which is why I supplied them.

Secondly, you seem to be confused about the term 'capitalism' which has very different meanings in the socialist and liberal (capitalist) economic traditions. When Marx says the proletariat revolution replaces the capitalists, he is not talking about capitalism in the sense of the economic theory of capitalism. These are entirely different ideas where merely happen to use the same word.

Thirdly, you're missing the point: in both fascism and socialism, as you have defined them, you have the state control of the market. Whose revolution produces that system is entirely moot. Economic structures are defined by their structures, not by the individuals who happen to fill their administrative positions.


Both ends at the extreme are foolhardy and dangerous...

But, as just explained, they are not "both ends of the extreme" -- they're both essentially the same system. Where they vary is essentially on non-economic points (eg. the nationalist of fascism).


I think the general contention is that Bush is becoming more facist, as the countervalence from the socialist philosophy becomes weaker.

Since fascism is a type of socialism, this remark is nonsensical.

cam
10-18-2005, 05:25 AM
An interesting read
www.lawrence.edu/sorg/objectivism/socfasc.html


On a sidenote
How many Vietnamese were killed in that little war?
2 million?
3 million?

MonkeySlap Too
10-18-2005, 05:31 AM
I often argue that I am a 17th century liberal, but no one is educated enough to know what this means anymore - except maye Christopher. No slam, but when girls demand you read Ward Churchhill in order to get laid, I can see why so many men are brainwashed.

The concepts of personal liberty, self-reliance, pulling together in a crisis and not relying on a king, freedom to engage in trade, freedom to speak openly... these are things i cherish.

But - the various socialist models pull us right back to blindly following a 'dear leader.' It pays off the poor with substinence, while robbing them of thier will. A great example is welfare. Newt Gingrich forced Clinton's hand and passed welfare reform. The end reesult is a bunch of folks who either thought they could not, or simply would not found the moxie to fend for themselves so the state would have to kill that many grandmas less than previously in order to collect 'the fair share' of taxes. (of which 83.88% are paid by the top 25% of wage earners).

The Democrats long ago gave up the 'help the little guy, give him a fair shake' model and became closer to the National Socialist model. You have more uber rich funding the dems, they seek to remove liberty and pile confiscatory taxes on in order to create minimal state subsidies to pay off the poor and weak of mind. They have argued for surrender in the face of each of the great challenges we have faced since WW2 - and effectively surrendered Eastern europe to soviet domination - something the poles and czechs are still very angry about. (What happened to people loving socialism. Maybe we should talk to some Cubans - oh, they are too poor and not allowed to leave thier country...)

It's easy to simplify the opposition to some of the right's 'hot button' issues. None of which are that simple as either side presents them.

But we digress again:
1. Give me one example of a 'workers paradise' that did not turn to mass murder and improsonment of it's people
or
2. Did not impoverish the population
or
3. Where you had the freedom of concious to speak out against something you disagree with - without being thrown in the gulag.

You know we have a state-run economy right here in America that gives people free housing, free food, and free medical care. And just like sociaslist countries you can have only minimal personal property, and can only leave when you are allowed by the dear leader. And the people are desperate to escape and risk thier lives to do so.

What do we call this 'workers paradise?' We call them prisons.

Hey Simon, been to North Korea lately? Don't you wonder how your socialist brothers can let those people starve? Hmmm, who tries to send those poor starving citizens of a failed state... other socialists? hhmmm, no. Capitalists? The West? Well golly gee whillickers... Ward Churchhill never mentioned this one...

MonkeySlap Too
10-18-2005, 05:34 AM
And how many more Vietnamese were murdered by the soviet state after we abandoned them? How many died desperatly trying to escape?

MonkeySlap Too
10-18-2005, 07:30 AM
AP Newswire - 10/17/05

The Cuban Navy, utilizing the latest in socialized hi-tech row boats intercepted yet another band of U.S. boat people fleeing to get that free medical care from the state. "They tried to sneak in on a brand new Ocean Alexander cruiser. We set off our sirens, but they ignored us by turning up thier music louder with thier imperialist running dog sound system. My superior roll towel paper tube voice amplifier (sent to me by relatives in Miami, as I would never own such an imperialist thing as roll towel paper) did not get any response."

The pasengers of the 'ye olde good time' commented that when they saw the emaciated, poorly shaven men in the rowboats, that maybe 'they were out in the water a long time.'

"These Americans, they alays want to come here, eat our rice and bean rations, and try to join us on those lucky holidays when we have meat just like in the big hotels for fdreighners. They want to sit in a ruined mold infested hovel, use the communal bathrooms, and sing songs to our dear leader. Why don't they just get a dear leader of thier own?" Said Captain Jorge Pendejo.

The Ye Olde Good Time left the Navy with bottles of Rum, and returned to America "Where they don't even have socialized *cough* medicine. See this cough? In two more months I can see a physician. For Free!"