The good bad student

[UNDERDOG 2]

When teaching Kung Fu, every teacher has to be carefull on the kind of students that we have walk into our schools day by day. No matter what anyone says, their reasons to train kung fu is to do harm. Even if its while you are defending yourself. Every so often, and I know everyone who is a teacher exeperiences this, you get a student who you are not comfortable teaching Kung Fu. Simply because their intentions. Meaning- in class your new student asks questions on fighting wants to throw kicks and punches at you, to see how the system would respond to this move or that move. Which to me shows the intentions of fighting or exploiting the kung fu. Even though we teach "Martial" arts, we have to be careful on who we teach. Most kung fu requires your whole body to act as one. To adapt postures, breathing patterns, footwork, and hand techniques. If you dont have an understanding on these basic principles in your system(as a new student wouldnt),then you dont have the right to ask questions about how certain moves work.
Then there is the student who comes in your school and seems to have no intentions on using the Kung Fu in any type of harmful way. He or She may be intelligent and catch on to fundalmental moves easy, without asking any questions. They wait for your instructions, and will not ask for details but will recieve them upon the teachers giving. In a way you want to see this student move along on the right path, with hard work and close attention. So that they represent the perfect model of a good teacher at a great kung fu school.
But wait, what happens when your golden student is not what you thought he or she to be. They just so happen to be what you expected of your ambitious student, and your assumed, malicious motived student is the one who is the model of your teaching, of your kung fu school.
Just looking for thoughts

[Mortal1]

Try to reach out to that student to change his intentions. Bring him back to the light side of the force.

My wingchun class has a couple of guys that love fighting. I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching them. They have to live with the consequences of their actions. I went through a stage like that. Its called growing up and everyone does it one day. You could help hasten that by leading by example.

If that doesn't work humble them with a light beating. Show them you could still be nice and weild power in this world.

[UNDERDOG 2]

Try to reach out to that student to change his intentions. Bring him back to the light side of the force.

My wingchun class has a couple of guys that love fighting. I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching them. They have to live with the consequences of their actions. I went through a stage like that. Its called growing up and everyone does it one day. You could help hasten that by leading by example.

If that doesn't work humble them with a light beating. Show them you could still be nice and weild power in this world.
Agreed, I teach because I love what I do and yes I get paid but this is not my source of income, so I choose whom I want to teach these days.

[Ernie]

in reading your post
I was amazed on how out of phase your view of a good student is !
seems like you want sheep and robots not people with fighting spirit .
I love the guy that constantly test me and questions me and makes me prove stuff , this is the exact type that will take this information and do something with it , instead of the cookie cutter mindless clone that looks up to there Sifu like he is something special .
this is not ballet it's the study of fighting , it's not a nice little club of hand holding dancers --[ ok well most wing Chun and TCMA are =) ]

I often [ and this may or may not be you ] see the Sifu/teacher/coach that doesn't welcome a challenge and encourage a challenge from his students as a person that lacks confidence in there own skills , thus puts up brainwashing barriers to protect the rice bowl

I get a huge kick out of the young bucks that come up and from day one are throwing all they got at me , and if I truly have skill , I don't get upset or have to beat them down and teach them a lesson , just control them and have a good work out .

I would not even bother to teach of bunch of sheep just waiting around for there next lesson , that would just be fake and very boring

as for the intent , just because you teach them how to build a gun and how to use it , doesn't mean your telling them to go out and shoot the world if they go columbine that's on them

this thread should be called good and bad teachers :D

[Lindley]

We have a process called the Ving Tsun Experience. Prior to joining the school, you spend one hour a week for 4 weeks with a different instructor. The first session is learning a modified version of the Siu nim tao form, structure and basic concepts. The second session is hands related drills with concepts. The third session is leg related drills and concepts. The last class is a discussion of Kung Fu life, ettiquette, and the session's instructor's sharing of their experience in our family.
Generally, those only interested in fighting and causing trouble would not opt for this program. I agree that a school or club needs fighter types to generate some energy, ask questions, and test. There must be a balance, as there is no room for someone completely disruptive.
Our goal is not to change any individual, however that individual may need the kung fu the most.
Kung Fu training should be complete. Fighting is only one part of the process.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!!

[Wayfaring]

Hey ernie,

what's up with your avatar? it looks like something i saw on the news in new orleans, man. i agree with you on having that spark in students though.

[Ernie]

Wayfaring

just like to make sure i don't get lumped in with the simps ;)

[anerlich]

"He or She may be intelligent and catch on to fundalmental moves easy, without asking any questions. They wait for your instructions, and will not ask for details but will recieve them upon the teachers giving."

As Ernie said, the best students always ask questions and for details. Good instructors welcome intelligent questions. Good students use their brains without waiting for the teacher's permission.

IMO, "intelligent" and "without asking any questions" are contradictory.

Yes, you will occasionally find psychos and idiots coming to class, same as you do everywhere. If they don't change, you have to dismiss them. End of lecture.

[Jeff Bussey]

From my experience, I've noticed that the guys really interested in learning a couple of moves just to beat people up don't last. They show up for a few classes and realize that it's more work than they're willing to put in. But those guys are completely different than the guys who just want to explore all the levels that the martial art has to offer. Asking questions about how would you handle this .... is a valid question. Maybe people are afraid of the answer. If you haven't been asked that question before or haven't been in a particular situation before then be happy that this guy is asking you what to do because then you get to figure it out. Which only improves everyone's skill.
I'm not a teacher so I don't want to come off like I am. But people who haven't been training as long as me do ask me questions and I love it when I don't know the answer because then we can work it out together :)

The best times I've had in any martial art is when you have a good group of people willing to work out the problem at hand. Nothing beats that in my book.

Evrytime I write more than a couple of lines I feel like I'm lecturing someone. Don't mean to come off that way if that's how it sounds. Just my opinion
:D

J

[air]

:cool:

I teach wing chun atleast the 12yrs worth that i have which really isnt much, but anyhow..

Aside from all the this is better then that etc.. I enjoy my chi sao training with my students i try very hard to make them the best i can..

chi sao- I play chi sao lots of ways (which is why i laugh at people who think its a useless drill )

I find while my best students get better my understanding and skill also increase.

A good teacher knows his or her own skill lvl they shouldnt fool themselves..

I know as good as i am i still have alot to learn (experiance)

Wing Chun isnt a slide show its a combative form of martial arts that doesnt have time to play games for egos and pride.

It IS a martial system to handle realworld situations the main problem with THE system as a whole are the people training in it who actually believe they can call themselves SKILLED fighters after a small fraction of time like 5yrs or less

Man by nature is the most dangerous animal any person CAN learn how to defend themselves in any martial arts if they are sincere about there training.

often in war, the better trained army will fair better..then one that isnt.


Often what people dont understand about fighting is its for keeps.

sure you shouldnt fight, absolutely most hand to hand fights arent deadly persay.

however if i get into a"REAL" fight then its everything or nothing.

IF you look into a mans eyes and you see no fear of death, then you should be worried..

Sorry for the long post just adding my 2cents..
peace

[Matrix]

just like to make sure i don't get lumped in with the simps ;)If I were a betting man, I would say the odds of that happening are virtually non-existent. ;)

[lawrenceofidaho]

chi sao- I play chi sao lots of ways (which is why i laugh at people who think its a useless drill )
How does the assertion that you "play chi sau in lots of ways" in any way refute the premise that chi-sau is a useless drill?

If you resent someone saying that chi-sau is useless, it needs to be challenged in a more meaningful way in order to be taken seriously by them. -Your present statement merely infers a conclusion from evidence which is logically irrelevent.

I may say; "I drink lots of different brands of beer, which is why I laugh at people that say that alcohol is bad for my liver." -but how would that invalidate what they have told me??

:confused:



A good teacher knows his or her own skill lvl they shouldnt fool themselves..
What kind of reality checks would you recommend a good teacher undergo to make sure they are not fooling themselves?



I know as good as i am i still have alot to learn (experiance)
What kind of experience do you mean? What are you hoping to learn more about in the near future?



It IS a martial system to handle realworld situations the main problem with THE system as a whole are the people training in it who actually believe they can call themselves SKILLED fighters after a small fraction of time like 5yrs or less
If someone cannot become a skilled fighter in five years, they need to find a new teacher!! -A person with five years of MMA-influenced, "modified" wing chun should be a serious handful for any fighter to deal with.


often in war, the better trained army will fair better..then one that isnt.
Do you mean to say, the army that has trained more realistically and has more experience will fare better? If yes, then I agree with you.......



IF you look into a mans eyes and you see no fear of death, then you should be worried..
Maybe, or maybe not. -The guy might just be; drunk, stupid, or one of those types that practices the "eye of the tiger" in his mirror every night even though he can't fight worth a cr@p........

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe that chi sao is by no means a "useless drill"...but what is useless is not spending enough time TRANSLATING what you learn in chi sao into actual fighting/sparring conditions against people who are boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, grappling, streetfighting, etc. (Not just other wing chun).

I've met lots of people in my wing chun days who have excellent chi sao skills but little more than mediocre to just OK actual fighting/sparring skills, precisely because they haven't added significant amounts of non-chi sao training time to the program.

That said, there IS an enormous amount that one can learn about fighting at a very close quarter limb-to-limb contact range from chi sao - as long as you are CONSTANTLY working the chi sao principles and techniques into various moves and fighting scenarios wherein ANYTHING might be used - as in a real fight.

And furthermore - it has to always be kept in mind that at other longer ranges - and other very close grappling ranges...

IT'S TIME TO TRAIN OTHER THINGS ...because chi sao won't cover those aspects of fighting hardly at all.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Would also like to comment on this remark by Lawence:

"If someone cannot become a skilled fighter in five years, they need to find a new teacher!! -A person with five years of MMA-influenced, 'modified' wing chun should be a serious handful for any fighter to deal with."


***FIRST OF ALL, Lawrence has just added a new dimension to the word "modified" as it pertains to wing chun, now hasn't he? :rolleyes: :) :p

I agree with his assessment about how long it should take to become a good fighter - and the whole training regimen he refers to has to be radically different than the "lots of SLT....then lots of drills like dan chi sao, pak sao, bong-lop, then begin chi sao, then learn chum kiu, more chi sao, then biu jee, more chi sao, then wooden dummy, more chi sao...etc. etc....routine" - before actual sparring or rolling is begun.

The MMA approach to strategies and techniques learned along with realistic competitive sparring/rolling, beginning early in the training process, is the way to go NOWADAYS.You don't need to learn chum kiu, bil jee, wooden dummy, etc. BEFORE sparring drills and actual sparring is undertaken- and you certainly don't need those things before beginning to learn clinchfighting and groundgrappling either.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I believe that chi sao is by no means a "useless drill"...but what is useless is not spending enough time TRANSLATING what you learn in chi sao into actual fighting/sparring conditions against people who are boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, grappling, streetfighting, etc. (Not just other wing chun).

I've met lots of people in my wing chun days who have excellent chi sao skills but little more than mediocre to just OK actual fighting/sparring skills, precisely because they haven't added significant amounts of non-chi sao training time to the program.

Well said....... :)

-L

[air]

Ill keep in short.

A person who studies martial arts for 5yrs can surely defend himself in most situations, atleast they have the tools to come out on top..

I suppose your idea of a SKILLED martial artist and my idea are different, with that being said it is like playing music, Lots of people can pick up a guitar, strum out some chords maybe even play some scales.. but in the end they are no better or worse then anyone else, there are only a few gifted people in the world who are masters of the craft , pretty much these people are the ones who have been honest with themselves and not just tried something out but lived what they believe..

This whole mma bs which is what it is glorified wwf (well i say that sarcastically ofcourse but what i mean , once something gets to TV it pretty much gets dummied down for the folks who feel they need to be entertained by watching other people beat up on each other.

ONE of the most stupidest things ive ever heard was well this so and so fighter on ultimate poopaa who trains 12hours a day 7 days a week can take out this other guy who has a full time job and trains 3hours a week.. types stuff. Just stupid.

furthermore to argue points that in the end are really meaningless end up just taking up space..

Most intellegent people realize these guys who are mma guys who compete in things like ufc, pride, k1 etc..... these guys all of them are suburb athletes and I am sure they will be able to defend themselves in a "real" situation my argument or complaint has never been about that fact.

The funny thing is i hear all the time that so and so challenged so and so and they backed down.. The guys like botzipe,chung, ip ching etc.. these guys are still here their still teaching they still are doing there thing after all these yrs and all the great mma guys in the world obviously are to busy to go chasing after them because the truth is this in a real fight with no rules and just 2 people face to face the outcome will have nothing to do with superior fighting system, rather it will come down to intellegence, will,heart. Good wing chun teacher,student,etc.
would be training all these so in essense why are they any worse off then anyone else training?

I suppose i could mention that the besides training the only real world experiance i have gotten is when i worked at a night club in atlantic city..(that was interesting to say the least..)

you know when i first started reading forums regarding the martial arts i was enthusiastic about learning and sharing with other like minded individuals i thought the internet was a great medium to share information. but what it has turned into is whos pee pee is bigger then the other.

as far as chi sao and its usefulness.

i took 5yrs of goju rye with kickboxing thrown in when i was younger i learned how to box decent enough and move etc.. but what was missing the most important ingrediant that i couldnt never put my finger on..

and that is sensitivity there is no greater fighting aid and no greater teacher then sensitivity.. if anyone takes with them from a martial art like wing chun, is its internal aspect of it. this is the true power of the martial art and it can and does take way more then 5yrs to truly understand it.
IM not teaching a class so i dont feel inclined on explaining all the benifits with chi sao especially because there are many sifus on this board and im sure they could if they felt like explain it better then i care too.

it takes 1min to show someone how to pull a trigger
maybe a couple of months to convince someone to actually throw a punch
it takes a lifetime to master sensitivity. thats just a fact and if a person isnt willing to take the time to train there sensitivity well 2 people of equal skill the one who can feel better will more then likely be on top..

i like to liken it to the gracies, they have great ground sensitivity the people who fought them werent prepared for it..

then you have these big guys coming into the scene and well due to THE small but limiting rules set forth in any competion that you can watch on television the rules favor them plain and simple.

I believe that a 5'7 130lb woman can survive a fight against 6'8 man 250lbs but not by being able to take a punch or sprawl correctly or roll around on the ground with the big guy...

what is the answer for these people who are weaker? can you tell me that?
Can you tell me how someone who is unfortante to be 4'11 be able to defend themselves against a bigger more aggressive advasary..?

What do i hope to learn in the future, I wish to understand myself, my lord, and my wife more.

I grew up on martial arts, my father and all 7of my uncles train in something or another, ive been training in general for the better part of my 30yrs on this planet.

My reality is this, if any man trys to cause me harm i will with every ounce of my life fight that person Win or lose the person will know they have been in a fight and in the end i can be proud of that.What i will not do is throw away all that i know is true because in the past 15yrs or so someone says other wise...

when a person decides to train what is there motivation?
is it to be the best fighter , how does one prove this? I suppose it comes down to competing and proving to yourself and the world i suppose that you can go in there and take a punch and lock with the best of them..

my father is vietnam vet served there 3yrs and spend 28yrs in the military afterward.. Everyone THINKS they have a plan when the shizzit goes down but very few people find that they really were prepared.

I suppose the guys who are saying hey well then i challenge you because im this great fighter and well i think your fool of shi% to these people I say this I wont lose any sleep over it maybe there werent breast fed as babies i dont know.

When i decided to pursue martial arts it was for one reason and one reason only and that was to better my entire person.

I currently study Wing chun, Tai chi, chi'na like most wing chun students these 3 combinations covers pretty much all ranges..

also id like to point out that tai chi , if one understands the nature of energy is a devistating system.. laugh if u wish.. again im not going to lose sleep over it.


the only thing i will agree with and im sure most of the people will agree with is that to be ignorant and not see clearly the advantages of other martial systems is foolish.

i thought they taught people in kindergarden to appreaciate and understand all fighting systems since in essense they are all the same ..but i guess some people only find these things out later in life ..


and for goodness sake , can you guys please realize that the concept of mma has been around as long as 2 people tried to beat each other up...GEEZE do you think it takes real rocket science to figure that out.

so i will say again how are you going to tell me someone of 5yrs experiance in martial arts are actually going to be any good vs say someone with 20yrs of experiance..

You have 2 different kinds of education RING and street

Ring puts you against people who know your skills who trained to fight you
on the street you have secs if that long to figure out your game plan...

one could say but you are training against live opponents on the ring you cant go in the street and fight every day you will get killed..and even if you didnt get killed the calibur of fighter wouldnt be the same.

nor would the situation, why am i fighting this great fighter on the street? why am i not learning from him or her?

lets get back to reality shall we , most of the world wakes up goes to work pays thier bills in the unlikely event that they are in a situation ,im sure nature will take over it has for thousands of yrs..


I dont question mixed martial arts
I dont question any form of martial training
what i do question are the people teaching it, and how its taught and what people will tell other people...

let get back to this 5yr thing again because lets take this 5yr martial art student

lets say he trains 5days a week for 5hours a day lets put him against someone who trains 5 days a week 5hours a day for 20yrs who do you honestly think will win? If you even try and say what style is he using and how does he train then you miss the point totally..

I give much respect to wing chun it has taught me much about martial arts, but so has my father and he studied judo and jujitsu, and so did my uncle he is a mantis escrima junky...i could go on

its longer then i thought sorry

p.s all arguing aside i can understand and see all of your points.. agree or not..
thanks for the comments

[lawrenceofidaho]

lets say he trains 5days a week for 5hours a day lets put him against someone who trains 5 days a week 5hours a day for 20yrs who do you honestly think will win?
All things being equal, of course twenty years is better than five years, but what is the point of seeking agreement on that? (I don't know anyone who would be stupid enough to dispute it.)


If you even try and say what style is he using and how does he train then you miss the point totally..
Do you honestly think those factors are not relevant to gaining fighting skill? :confused:

IMO, how someone trains is much more important than how long they've trained.

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The guys like boztepe, cheung, ip ching etc.. these guys are still here their still teaching they still are doing there thing after all these yrs and all the great mma guys in the world obviously are to busy to go chasing after them because the truth is this in a real fight with no rules and just 2 people face to face the outcome will have nothing to do with superior fighting system, rather it will come down to intellegence, will, heart. Good wing chun teacher,student,etc.
would be training all these so in essense why are they any worse off then anyone else training?" (air)


***THE FALLACY with your arguments here is the idea that the MMA approach is not a "superior fighting system". IT IS. Intelligence, heart, and will do play major roles - but without enough tools in your fighting arsenal (which a MMA approach does provide) - the "good" wing chun teacher is giving his students something worse off than the MMA trained fighter. That's not to say that what he's giving them is not valuable - but my point is that it is not AS VALUABLE as what the MMA teacher is giving his students.

...................................


"I believe that a 5'7 130lb woman can survive a fight against 6'8 man 250lbs but not by being able to take a punch or sprawl correctly or roll around on the ground with the big guy"...(air)


***LET'S BE REALISTIC, here, shall we? Her chances are slim. But if she is to have any chance at all - it will be because she's been trained to deal with many different contingencies (ie. a MMA approach) - namely, standup, clinch, and ground - precisely because this behemoth she's fighting might try to punch or kick her, he might try to grab her while standing up, he might try to throw her to the ground and jump on top, etc.

[air]

"The guys like boztepe, cheung, ip ching etc.. these guys are still here their still teaching they still are doing there thing after all these yrs and all the great mma guys in the world obviously are to busy to go chasing after them because the truth is this in a real fight with no rules and just 2 people face to face the outcome will have nothing to do with superior fighting system, rather it will come down to intellegence, will, heart. Good wing chun teacher,student,etc.
would be training all these so in essense why are they any worse off then anyone else training?" (air)


***THE FALLACY with your arguments here is the idea that the MMA approach is not a "superior fighting system". IT IS. Intelligence, heart, and will do play major roles - but without enough tools in your fighting arsenal (which a MMA approach does provide) - the "good" wing chun teacher is giving his students something worse off than the MMA trained fighter. That's not to say that what he's giving them is not valuable - but my point is that it is not AS VALUABLE as what the MMA teacher is giving his students.

...................................


"I believe that a 5'7 130lb woman can survive a fight against 6'8 man 250lbs but not by being able to take a punch or sprawl correctly or roll around on the ground with the big guy"...(air)


***LET'S BE REALISTIC, here, shall we? Her chances are slim. But if she is to have any chance at all - it will be because she's been trained to deal with many different contingencies (ie. a MMA approach) - namely, standup, clinch, and ground - precisely because this behemoth she's fighting might try to punch or kick her, he might try to grab her while standing up, he might try to throw her to the ground and jump on top, etc.


To say mma training is better then any other form of training is a fallacy.Since in the end we all end up with 2arms and 2 legs no?

so basically you are also telling me that size and strength does matter unless a little lady can clinch or play any other game she is done fore.

this is my point to a T the way MMA is presented in most cases favors the stronger person , and well in real life MOST of us dont have the luxury of being a suburb specimen of genetics..Most of us are just regular simple folks who need a way to defend our self against all these elite fighters in the world..

rolling around on the ground in real life isnt a very safe tactic. as far as games i wouldnt know about them as i dont train to play games but i suppose thats a point of view.

TO call anything better then something else is a fallacy in of itself. so to say mma is a superior way to train(as if this term isnt as old as time itself).

basically you are telling me if my stand up game is great the person in front of me is going to reconize it and since his ground game is superior im done for..?

What if his or her attempt to take me the ground fails does that mean there going to have to resort to the stand up game and hope for the best... or to say

the problem here is mma is not a evolution its something that the media hyped up.Cross training is a great tool.

In the end if you are unable to freely be who you are with out limitation without notion, without a opion you are blinding yourself to the very things which you are trying to free yourself from..never said wing chun or anything was better then anything else , im simply saying that to believe mma is superior to any other form of training is a lie.

in all the disaplines that make up mma your telling you can learn all of it in a mere couple of months or yrs and be a super human fighter who is prepared for anything that comes there way..

Except for someone who is a total expert in one field, in which case then said individual can hope they put that person at a disadvantage by using there basic understanding of a counter.

wing chun focus on in-fighting grapplers want to take people down , kick boxers want to kick the shizzit out em . The person who really is a master of there range of fighting has a clear advantage to them in that range.. everywhere else its anyones game..so these guys who are okay at all the ranges but well arent exactly experts at any range these guys are the best huh..

IM sorry in my eyes it hasnt been proving, and well .

have you guys heard if it sounds to good to be true it probably is?

Men and woman have spent thousands of yrs hand to hand and weapon to weapon fighting.. you mean to tell me man was to inferiour to figure out how to use there body effectively.. and that just now we are finally realizing it..

I believe you have to modify your training for todays situations..but that doesnt mean abandoning principles that are sound because someone says so..


a example of my point is this .

everyone knows about finger jabs to the eyes.. lots of people even say that its not that dangerous.. well I personally no a person who went blind in 1 eye from such a strike. I dont blindly follow what people say. I also realize that there a billions of people in the world who respond,feel, react, train,believe differently..

in the end a well placed strike or lock for that matter will end a fight. regardless of the fighters style if he trains regularly and realizes what century we live in, then he or she stands a good chance against anyone.

because in real life you dont know me or what i do or who i am. and how can you be prepared for i dont even know what im going to do ?

alot of people dont like wing chun because of the way it is taught, because the emphisis is on SKILL . by this i mean timing,aiming,feeling,awarness, there are as many crappy mma schools as there are wing chun schools.

if you are going to a doctors office would you want someone performing surgery on you who studied alittle of everything or would you want someone who has the knowledge and skill to deal with yoru specific problem.

as a student and teacher i have learned one thing and that is patience.

practice hard, focus, love what you do then you can look in the mirror and be happy with what you see.

If all a person desires is to be able to defend themselves, anything that makes em more prepared to face there fears is better then nothing at all.

[air]

one more thing i dont disrespect any system of fighting nor do i disrespect any person.

alot of you guys seem to have all the answers, go to all these "so-called masters" go explain to them your theories , better yet go show em...

I agree mckwoon/mcdojo's are abundant its but they have there roll in society there are alot of fat people who could use some excercise.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You have clearly missed the logic to my points either by design or by an inability to put 2 and 2 together to make 4. :eek:

So when you wrote this, for example:

"wing chun focus on in-fighting grapplers want to take people down , kick boxers want to kick the shizzit out em . The person who really is a master of their range of fighting has a clear advantage to them in that range.. everywhere else its anyones game..so these guys who are okay at all the ranges but well arent exactly experts at any range these guys are the best huh.." (air)


***YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT, because the whole idea behind MMA training is to become PROFICIENT - as in very good - in ALL three ranges that were mentioned; namely standup, clinch, and ground.

[anerlich]

MOST of us dont have the luxury of being a suburb specimen of genetics

That's the second time. It's superb, OK?


rolling around on the ground in real life isnt a very safe tactic

In REAL life, you may not have a choice as to whether you end up on the ground or not. If you do, you'd better have some "tactics" to get out from under and back on your feet.


MMA is presented in most cases favors the stronger person

MMA the sport, yes. BJJ, which most people see as an integral part thereof, definitely not. BJJ is an art by which a smaller person with skill can defeat a larger person with less skill. This is about as true for BJJ as it is for Wing Chun.

Just about every Oriental MA makes claims of this nature. WC and BJJ are better than most, but there are limits to everything. No unarmed MA is going to help you stop a rampaging bull elephant or an opponent in a truck.

Smaller guys with skill have defeated bigger guys in MA (Royce v Shamrock and Severn, Nogiera vs Sapp, Genki Sudo v Butterbean, just to mention a few).


if you are going to a doctors office would you want someone performing surgery on you who studied alittle of everything or would you want someone who has the knowledge and skill to deal with yoru specific problem.

Generally you go to a GP first, and let HIM/HER decide if you need to see a specialist. BTW, most GP's will have studied A LOT MORE THAN A LITTLE of everything.

I don't see that this applies to fighting much, but in any case, if the guy hasn't seen a little of everything how is he going to know what your specific problem is? Would you go to a proctologist to ask about a knee reconstruction?


in all the disaplines that make up mma your telling you can learn all of it in a mere couple of months or yrs and be a super human fighter who is prepared for anything that comes there way

I don't think you can do that with Wing Chun or anything else. There are exceptions - Frank Shamrock went from unskilled to MMA world Champ in 18 months, but I have him on video readily admitting he is a genetic freak when it comes to training.

What was this thread originally about again?

[air]

ya i kinda that i spelled that word wrong:( to lazy to go back and fix that is bad grammer i apolagize:)