Wushu in 2008 Olympic [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

GeneChing

10-14-2005, 09:53 AM

We've been following the Wushu Olympic story since 2001 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=368). In fact, we've been the only mag to give it so much serious attention since it has a tremendous effect on CMA. We did a series of articles starting after Beijing secured the 2008 games and followed it quite closely for some time. Still do, in fact, although now its embedded in other articles, not so much a stand-alone feature. We predicted it was going to be a demo sport - it's been leaning that way since the Asian Games. Demo sport is fine - TKD started out as a demo sport. I'm very excited about it and am hoping I can score some seats in Beijing.

Mutant

10-14-2005, 10:24 AM

I think its fantastic news.

Chief Fox

10-14-2005, 12:19 PM

If modern Wushu will succeed in 2008 Olympic then all TCMA will die.
WOW! Cheer up dude.

Chief Fox

10-14-2005, 12:23 PM

I don't think it is fair to compare xma to wushu. They are completely different. I don't feel like getting into it now. I think you guys need to actually take a wushu class to see all the different elements there are to the training. Its not just gymnastics.
I didn't say that wushu people don't train hard. I'm sure they train very hard and I'm sure it's not easy. What I am saying is that they are turning kung fu into a performance art just like XMA. They're turning kung fu into figure skating.

Mortal1

10-14-2005, 12:55 PM

I know what you mean but it is a far cry from figure skating. The stances and power generation are still there. Hitting a stance after doing a string of running and jumping is agony and then throwing more punches from low stances. The tradtional school will always be around. I see no reason why they can't co-exist. People want different things out of their training.

Actually training wushu is the only way to see the benefits. I had a teacher that would let you try a class but not watch. So you feel the training instead of just seeing it.

I train wingchun that is mostly hard sparring. I know the benefits of both. So its not like I see just one side. The wingchun guys make fun of me for training wushu. But they can't kick like me or have my endurance and yes both are from wushu training. Did I mention I lost 50 pounds. Shed all the fat. I know wingchun wasn't doing that for me.

Mortal1

10-14-2005, 01:15 PM

lol You think xingyi would be hurt by adding a kick? Tornado is my favorite kick. Well inner crescent to be precise.

Wingchun has no flying kicks. lol

I don't mean to laugh but come on. These styles are different. They look different and they are trained different. Doesn't make either bad.

I just started learning Long fist! I love it! I have to admit the part I am up to now is so exhausting I don't think I could continue without passing out.

I think the biggest threat to TCMA is MMA. Since TCMA are supposed to be all about fighting and applications you never see anyone win. In the beginning the traditionalists got their asses handed to them. Here lies the threat. Why train these styles if they don't work under spontaneous fighting enviroment. Just train wushu for the expression and athletisim and take boxing. Oh or in my case wingchun.

Mortal1

10-14-2005, 01:32 PM

Most of the people doing that form weren't very good. I have never seen that before. I see what you mean in this instance. I would be upset too.

I completed wushu Baji last month. I have researched it on the net and it looks almost exactly like the traditional.

mantis108

10-14-2005, 01:43 PM

I think traditional Wushu should go challenge the modern Wushu like the time Bruce Lee was challenged. If modern Wushu holds their own then traditional Wushu should shut up and let them be. ;) :D

Let's start with San Fran's China Town where that legendary challenge was held!

I am all the way with YKW on this one. Modern Wushu is a disgrace to Traditional Wushu and Kung Fu period.

Mantis108

ninja

10-14-2005, 02:32 PM

Mutant

10-14-2005, 03:05 PM

Everyone needs to calm down and eat chips and dip. Wushu is not a threat to traditonal martial arts training. They compliment each other very well. The problem is most people lack the experience of both. You have to really understand the differences in order to benefit. Shou Yu Liang is a top traditional master teaching many traditional and contemporary styles. Ask him if wushu is a threat to traditional training. He'll think you're joking. You have to broaden yourselves. Have you ever seen Helen Liang's Liuhe Bafa? It's sick!! She's a wushu master. She's also a qigong expert. You also have to realize what it means to be a professional chinese martial artist. It means to be well rounded.
Totally agree with this point of view.

The biggest threat to CMA is CMAists being too close-minded to adapt and be relevant in modern times. Some of the best wushu i've ever seen is by TCMA practioners who have a clear understanding of the differences and are good at both. Getting wushu exposure will only help promote all CMA including traditional arts and San da.

GeneChing

10-14-2005, 03:24 PM

If modern Wushu will succeed in 2008 Olympic then all TCMA will die. Let's correct that statement. It should read "If modern Wushu will succeed in 2008 Olympic then YouKnowWho's TCMA will die." And it should have the addendum that "YouKnowWho's TCMA was useless anyway because YouKnowWho's TCMA couldn't stand up to modern wushu."

Come on YouKnowWho, don't be such a whiner. I can't wait to see Olympic wushu and there's no way it will kill my traditional practice. NO WAY. I'm too old to practice wushu seriously, but my traditional practice will stay with me, hopefully for the rest of my life. If it doesn't, that's my fault, not the fault of TCMA, not wushu, not even the Olympics. What are you thinking? Do you think Homeland Security is going to force me to do wushu when it goes Olympic? Are you going to give up your TCMA practice just because wushu goes Olympic. Don't be silly. Don't compare your practice to others. When you stop to compare, you lose the way.

If your TCMA is so weak that it can't stand up to Wushu, you don't got real kung fu. You might as well take up bocci ball. As for my TCMA, it's my personal practice and I will keep on pursuing it as long as I am able, no matter what happens at the Olympics.

SimonM

10-14-2005, 08:01 PM

Hey Gene! I'll also be trying to score some tickets. I wasn't sure if I would do more than a two year stint here when I arrived but the longer I live in China the more I like living in China so it is increasingly likely that I WILL be here in 2008 and I will be spending the summer of 2008 in Beijing. If we both make it there let's meet up, ok?

YouKnowWho: I'm a hardcore proponent of TCMA. I've been telling all my classmates in my Chinese class about some of the things I learned in TCMA in Canada. I am also learning Wushu. Will I use that particularly style of Long Fist in a real fight? No! I'd be more likely to stick to Hei Long grappling and Hung Gar bridging like I always have. Does learning Wushu invalidate the skills I already have? No! Is it a threat to TCMA? NO! It's a bloody ad for CMA and Wushu looks all purty so we will probably see an upsurge in students in WC schools, CLF schools, Hung Gar schools, all those, along with the Wushu schools.
It's all Kung Fu after all right? ;)

Finally is Wushu fun? YES!
Is Wushu healthy? Yes
Is Wushu hard work? HELL YES!

I have said my piece now. ;)

SPJ

10-15-2005, 07:21 AM

An interesting link;

http://home.cwru.edu/casekungfu/kungfu.html

Any paralell of Kuo Shu in Berlin Olympic and Wu Shu in Bei Jing Olympic?

From 1930' to 2008?

:D

SPJ

10-15-2005, 07:23 AM

How TKD got into Olympic;

http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html

Any lessons to take in our efforts to promote Wushu or Kung Fu?

:D

firepalm

10-15-2005, 09:30 AM

If Wushu guys

- Wear cotton instead of silk.
- Fight full contact instead of perform forms only.
- Use regular weight weapon instead of light weight weapon.
- Put belt around their waist.
- Don't walk like "red guard".

Then I'll have no problem with them.

This is your definition of TCMA? Bafoon!

Okay unless TCMA are stepping into the ring to fight full contact then they are not real as well!

Silk versus cotton bahahahahahahahhaa!

Belt around the waist, in most conventional Wushu competitions typically a waist belt is required except in the Taiji events. Occasionally Mantis & drunken style performers will not wear a belt but in all other cases you will typically see them wearing a belt.

- Wing Chuan guys add "flying side kick" in their "spear finger" form.
- Taiji guys add "spin back kick" in their Yang long form.
- XingYi guys add "tornado kick" in their 12 animal form.
- Bagua guys add "red guard" walking in their "circle walking".

if that is ever the case it is the fault of 'frail minded traditional teachers' and not Modern Wushu. None of the moves and styles you have mentioned occurs in a Modern Wushu competition. Taiji in Modern Wushu is currently adding new more difficult movements but this is very recent (and many Wushu coaches and athletes are not happy about the change). If you watch any athlete doing Xingyi you will not see Tornado kicks and such.... a very uninformed statement.

As to Wushu in the Olympics, I say HIP HIP HORAY!!!

ShaolinTiger00

10-15-2005, 09:55 AM

hmmm..

while i think wushu is cool, i think that what we need in the olympics is NOT another coreographed dancing "sport". especially since legit sports like baseball are being removed and wrestling has been suggested as being dropped in the future..

but synchronized swimming, ribbon dancing and wushu are fine? that's ****ed up!

Wood Dragon

10-15-2005, 10:41 AM

I think that the "team-oriented" (except Beach Volleyball) sports should be dropped, as the Olympic Games were, traditionally, an individual/national effort.

And Women's Beach Volleyball should return to the Olympic roots. Nude.

SimonM

10-15-2005, 06:16 PM

Wrestling should NEVER be removed from the olympic games. It's the closest thing we have to Pancration unless they let MMA (or Sanshou or some other grapple and strike competition) in.

However I would love to see Wushu get in. Why don't they drop Rhythmic Gymnastics and put Wushu in it's place? Problem solved. ;)

Willow Palm

10-15-2005, 10:40 PM

Wushu in 2008 is a terrific idea and I support it. I'm not a Wushu practioner but it would be nice to see these people who put a lot of sweet-blood-tears, get recongnized for it.

SimonM

10-16-2005, 04:22 AM

That's the way Willow Palm.

PS: The last martial art I ever thought I would learn was Wushu. And it still isn't my favorite martial art; there is a long list of styles I have learned or would like to learn any one of which I would prefer to Wushu.

But I must admit, I'm having a lot of fun with this Wushu class. ;)

I just hope that my Sanshou past doesn't stop me from having too much fun with the would-be scrappers in the class. ****! I need to find some sparring partners who don't fall down so easily. ;)

Anthony

10-16-2005, 05:06 AM

Wrestling is the oldest martial art and therefore the most traditional. Can't believe they would think of dropping it from the olympics.

bing bang pow

10-16-2005, 06:07 AM

The Chinese are going to showcase the very best of thier martial arts. We will all get to see masters and styles that are unlike anything we have seen before. At least that's what I am being told by Masters connected to the martial arts in China. This can be an opportunity to see the very best China has to offer in the Martia Arts, and I am looking forward to it. :)

Mortal1

10-17-2005, 12:45 PM

If Wushu guys

- Wear cotton instead of silk.

I hate the silk uniforms too! Next time I compete I'm wearing an old school Addidas suit.

- Fight full contact instead of perform forms only.

That is not what wushu players train for. Not only that but they wouldn't want to get hurt. Then they won't be able to do the thing they really love.

- Use regular weight weapon instead of light weight weapon.

In chinese kungfu it is about how you move with the weapon. Not the weapon itself. I am suprised you aren't aware of that being a kungfu stylist.

- Put belt around their waist.

lolo Why? I never wore a belt and never will. I love when people ask me that. Like they are trying to gage how good I am. Meanwhile they wouldn't know good if they saw it. lol

- Don't walk like "red guard".

I honestly could say I haven't the foggiest idea what that is.

Then I'll have no problem with them.

They are training with a different purpose in mind. It amazes me that people can't grasp this concept.

Mortal1

10-17-2005, 01:12 PM

You only pick one thing out of my argument. Always failing to address my post in its entirety.

youknowwho

What traditional style do you train?

Mortal1

10-17-2005, 01:39 PM

Thanks.

Wow that is a lot of styles. We have Baji in common.

Zimen Do you mean Ziranmen?

Wing chuan Do you mean wingchun?

Is Sc shaolin ? Then we have that in common too.

Let me ask what else you guys do in class besides your form training?

GeneChing

10-17-2005, 02:14 PM

The purpose of the silk pajama is that soldiers can spot the individual riot from a far distance. That's a priceless statement. Absolutely priceless. :rolleyes:

BTW, here's our silk uniforms (http://www.martialartsmart.net/1118.html) - make sure not to wear them to the next riot you attend. :cool:

SifuAbel

10-17-2005, 02:40 PM

If Wushu guys

- Wear cotton instead of silk.

Its just clothing, get over it. I wear cotton 'cause I don't want to be naked.

- Fight full contact instead of perform forms only.

That would be another venue. And they don't wear silk while fighting, if they fight. This forms only thing is actually very rescent history.

- Use regular weight weapon instead of light weight weapon.

Totaly spot on. Aluminum is for wrapping fish.

- Put belt around their waist.

They do, its under the silk. Its keeping their pants up.

- Don't walk like "red guard".

Politics...............

SPJ

10-17-2005, 04:02 PM

We wear cotton t-shirt. After a while, we will be sweaty and bare chest.

I happened to know a lot of people that survived the periods of cultural revolution.

There were 10 standardized plays or Yang Ban Xi.

The moves from red guards were re"tooled" from the cultural department or Wen Gong Tui of the red army or Hong Jun.

Please do not confuse the TCMA derived Wushu routines with those moves from red army derived red guard dance.

Some of the early dances is from the "liberated" area or Jie Fan Chu pre and during WWII.

They were originated from folk dances from farmers from Hu Nan (Mao's birth province) and Jiang Xi or even Shaan Xi etc.

My point is that do no confuse the two.

Thanx.

:D

SPJ

10-17-2005, 04:05 PM

You know who why Ba Gua is not on your list.

:mad:

SPJ

10-17-2005, 04:06 PM

SC has Mongolian and Hebei/Beijing styles etc

SC has moslem style, too.

:D

GeneChing

10-18-2005, 10:03 AM

SifuAbel:
I don't want to be naked. Not even for Olympic beach volleyball?:p

There was a period when wushu was incorporated into the standardized plays, so to speak. A whole new series of wushu forms were developed for the 'people's' weapons - things like sickles, pot lids and sledgehammers. The only one I've seen still extant is sledgehammer. We covered that period and it's impact on modern wushu in our Wushu at the White House series which ran all of 2004 - the people's weapons part was either in MAR APR 2004 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=453) or MAY JUNE 2004 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=486).

SifuAbel

10-18-2005, 10:11 AM

SifuAbel: Not even for Olympic beach volleyball?:p

Only for the women's. And I'd still be too short for anything more than holding their balls.......................................... :D

SimonM

10-18-2005, 10:20 PM

The only one I've seen still extant is sledgehammer.

In the right hands a sledgehammer can be a nasty weapon. Smashy Smashy. :D

GeneChing

10-19-2005, 03:10 PM

Well, that was the whole point of that round of wushu rennovations - it was about the People's weapons, stuff that was in everyday use in Communist China. With such a large farming community, everyone had sickles. And those huge pot lids are still easy to find in China today, everywhere from the villages to the big cities. Ironically, that focus was on practical fighting weapons instead of obsolete cold arms like Kwan Dao and such.

Funny, huh? Most people reject wushu because it's not practical for fighting and commie, but there was a period when the Communists were very interested in martial arts in order to stage the revolution. Most CMA people totally overlook this period.

SimonM

10-19-2005, 04:31 PM

Hmmmm.....

I wonder if Sifu Zhang knows any sledgehammer forms.... It might be fun to learn one or two before I return to Canada.:cool:

SPJ

10-20-2005, 07:26 AM

There were always weapon training and applications since people picked a stone and a club.

Hardened and sharpened etc or since the stone age.

And open hand combat without weapons is considered a higher art.

Every style has weapon training with similar core disciplines to their open hand forms.

That is why Wushu weapon forms are sort of generic or generalized, and thus lacking the stylish flavors.

Even though the general principles apply to all styles.

Single straight sword, broad sword, horse chopping sword, or staff wushu form represents all style weapon forms? Hmm maybe overgeneralized.

Some claim that in that case, Wushu weapon forms or long fist or southern fist forms may be a beginner or step stone or intro study before any style further study.

In this respect, Wushu study is only the beginning and not the end. Wushu forms are only one aspect and not the whole training spectrum or the only aspect of Kung Fu then.

---

:cool:

SPJ

10-20-2005, 07:31 AM

On the other hand, if your purpose is to show flashy moves such as cartwheel, etc.

Then contrive forms with all these showy moves strung together and do not hide them inbetween Wushu forms.

My question is that these generic showy moves consistent with fighting principles of the forms your are performing/presenting or not.

:confused:

SPJ

10-20-2005, 07:34 AM

Oh, in many respects, Wushu still has a long way to go to be popularized around the world.

And yet another long march.

From 1930' to 2008 and beyond (generations).

:)

GeneChing

10-26-2005, 11:23 AM

A shadow on the Beijing Olympics... (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article322048.ece)

lkfmdc

10-26-2005, 12:25 PM

My only comments, yes,

only a totalitarian regime would come up with the idea that one head referee is all powerful and can change at will the decision of 5 other judges

only a totalitarian regime would come up with the idea that you have to goose step like a Nazi storm trooper around the competition area before the event begins

personally, we used to tell Shawn Liu to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and refused to march....

I guess that's yet another reason he loves me so much :D

SPJ

10-26-2005, 08:01 PM

Money and power corrupt people.

Or greed corrupts people.

People then corrupt the system.

Corruption is a big problem and number 1 public enemy in many countries and societies.

It is sad situation that these would spread to the most idealistic of human physical endeavour as represented by the ancient Greek games.

:eek:

ntc

10-28-2005, 09:27 AM

My thoughts....

WuShu and traditional kung fu are not exactly the same.... the former is based on the latter. In China, we have a saying about wushu (yao tsee sai mo sut tsai - Cantonese pronunciation, meaning "have style, no realism"). Generally, traditionalists believe that WuShu has no real substance and that those stylists don't go through the very robust, intense foundation training (horse stance, etc.) that traditionalists go through. Hence, it is believed by traditionlists that WuShu'ists would not be able to execute the effectiveness nor the power expected of the particular kung fu style in question. In fact, you will frequently see traditionlists balk when they see contemporary wushu stylists in their routines, especially when performing something that was taken / originated from a part of that person's traditional kung fu forms.

Secondly, WuShu competition these days are made up of compulsory routines that all competitors have to go through, be the routines Taichi (eg, Chen 56) or contemporary WuShu. These routines are taken from traditional forms and emphasis is on athleticism, action, level of difficulty, etc. Just as an example, compare Chen 56 to the traditional Chen forms... you will see in the former parts taken from Chen Old Style routines 1 and 2 (Pao Chui)... but you don't see as much intense silk reeling, etc. etc. etc.

Thirdly, traditional kung fu masters in China will almost always follow their traditions and pass on their style traditionally.... not everyone in China is in favor of contemporary WuShu. So, I think the chance is slim if any that the traditional styles will be threatened by contemporary WuShu.

GLW

10-28-2005, 04:38 PM

Not at all surprising.

Just because a person is trained and certified in China to be an IWuF judge doesn't mean they :

ARE a good judge if they are trying to be fair...

And more importantly

ARE capable or willing to be fair and impartial.

From what I have been told, if you are from school A in China and are sent to a competition to judge, you are EXPECTED to support school A's team and oppose any of school A's enemies while working. What that means is you score yours up and theirs down.

If you DON'T, you may be perceived well by the athletes and maybe even the officials you work with....

BUT, unless you have someone pulling for you with political clout, when you get back to school A after the event, you will NOT be given the opportunity to go judge anytime in the near future....

So...we then wonder why there are problems at national events with China-trained judges.... They are simply doing what they have been trained to do.

@PLUGO

06-01-2006, 12:07 PM

So.... has anyone seen these Olympic mascots: the Five Friendlies (http://en.beijing2008.com/80/05/article211990580.shtml)

Ben Gash

06-01-2006, 02:53 PM

What you don't see is that Huan huan is sat in front of a tank, that's why he's on fire ;)

SimonM

06-01-2006, 04:55 PM

So.... has anyone seen these Olympic mascots: the Five Friendlies (http://en.beijing2008.com/80/05/article211990580.shtml)

Everywhere everyday!

Because I am in China. :p

omarthefish

06-01-2006, 05:26 PM

shaolinboxer

06-03-2006, 06:26 AM

Nothing could be better for CMA than the inclusion of wushu as an olympic sport. The inclusion of TKD and judo have propelled those sports to international fame and success.

Rather than destroying the traditional arts, a unified international sport wushu would clearly differentiate them and increase their value and marketablity.

The incredible athletes involved in wushu deserve global recognition. A lot of folks on this forum might even be able to find work in the field if people only knew what the heck we're talking about!

Also, China's rise in global commerce and politics could really use this kind of boost. It would serve the ultimate goal of the olympics...to unify different cultures through the common thread of human athletic performance.

And we have Gene as a pioneer in keeping an American audience aware of what's going on...perhaps I see a future commentator's postion arising?? :)

SPJ

06-03-2006, 06:40 PM

China, Russia and US may capture most of the golds in coming events.

Personally, Wushu in whatever forms being showcased in or along side of the events;

Really it is to promote Wushu in a younger generation and the rest of the world.

If it will work, meaning more people in other countries to pick up Wushu?

We shall see.

:D