CLF Tiger's Tail Broadsword - is it really Southern?

[yutyeesam]

Hey LKH lineage folks, what is with our Fu Mei Don Do? These northern guys' Shaolin Broadsword form is remarkably similar:

http://www.chinahand.com/Fun%20Stuff/Our%20Forms/bj200107_bs_caoyue.mpg

Is this a northern form originally that's been adapted into our curric?

-123

[CLFNole]

I have seen a variety of styles do the form with slight differences including:

Buk Siu Lum, Jow Gar and Hung Gar.

What its origin is I don't know, but weapons are weapons and styles have shared forms and altered them over the years.

Just my take.

[TenTigers]

I asked Bow Sim Mark the origin of the form as she does a similar set to the one I learned. (basically the same, but differs in some direction changes and some extra moves) She said Tiger Tail is the most famous and widely practiced set,which is why it was chosen for the standardized wu-shu broadsword form.- but one, there are many sets called Tiger Tail, and two, there are many names for the same set, so that solves...um, nothing?

[Shaolin Dude]

I know this form too.

[David Jamieson]

i learned a 'tiger tail' broadsword form. it was nothing like that wushu one you just posted. it is similar to hung ga broadsword forms i've seen.

[Invisible-fist]

As far as I know, Hung Ga has no broadsword of its own . Hung schools usually import either the tiger tail, or the Pek Kwa broadsword.

[Mulong]

That is sei duan daoshu (four section knife skill) or also known as 32 broadsword (san shi er dao)

[Ben Gash]

Most Hung schools I know do Mui Fah Don Do, which as far as I can tell is a Hung form.

[Mulong]

Curious, which one? I asked, because I have studied with two reknown Shifu in hongquan, and we don't do huweidandao.

[Lohanhero]

Hung is from Shaolin, wouldnt it have a shaolin sword form?

[Eddie]

that form is actually a standard broadsword form and is used by many schools, nothern and southern. LKH form has a typical LKH opening, which makes it slightly different, but the rest of the form is pretty much all the same.

As far as I know, there is no real Southern Broadsword (Nan Dao), but there was a post about this here long time ago.

[TenTigers]

There is an expression in Hung=Ga, which I don;t recall, but basically states that the pillar forms are shared y all, but each sifu provides the weapons.

[David Jamieson]

bladed weapons are a realtively new thing to buddhist martial arts.

the primary weapons of the shaolin were much less offensive than swords and such and there is even documented evidence that supports the shaolin for the longest time did not use swordplay at all or even other bladed weapons. THey are siad to have knocked the tops off of spears and to only use the staff as a defensive weapon.

It was in the last 300 years with the whole ching/ming thing where weapons became a factor in shaloing kungfu. This is likely because buddhist temples harboured anti government rebels. Shaolin being one of those temples. Other temples as well hid soldiers or even just people moving away from the fighting or in transit.

There were regiments in the kmt that carried broadswords of the variety we use in kungfu practice.

[Eddie]

david,
could you please state your reference sources to that post? Sure Shaolin used staffs, but there were other development in Chinese Martial Arts apart from Shaolin. The use of broadswords in Chinese Martial Arts defiantly pre dates 300 years.

[Invisible-fist]

"There is an expression in Hung=Ga, which I don;t recall, but basically states that the pillar forms are shared y all, but each sifu provides the weapons."


That sounds about right. The supplementary forms vary considerably as well.

I'd say that Hung's signature weapons are the monkey king staff, the 8 trigram pole, and the mother/son butterfly knives.

[Shaolin Dude]

I have a question for the LKH lineage students. Is there a form called drunken crane?

[Eddie]

LKH drunken form is joy baat sin kuen - drunken 8 immortals.
heard of drunken monkey and drunken mantis, but never of a drunken crane. it could work tho

[Lohanhero]

i was looking to ask more on hung system. coming from the old shaolin temple where the arts of hung originate how come people say that hung is different then shaolin (southern)? is it because some masters such as wong fei hung changed forms and added to it so it had become somthing else, and such more people know of the changed hung system? i have seen some clips of taming tiger and seen pictures of it that have not many jumps or kicks, even though this is what it held. is this also because it has being changed?

what of the hung schools that come from masters who didnt change their forms and held the shaolin forms that were taught we this art in the temple.
are these considered the same hung system?

i was also wondering, southern shaolin was formed by northern(shaolin) masters and arts where probley added (like henan shaolin si) by retiring martial artist who wished to leave the death of people. so southern shaolin has northern roots doesnt it? northern shaolin has some characters of chen taiji chuan and visa-versa southern shaolin forms also have techques that reflect this. so why is southern thought of as so different?

or is it just that as the original shaolin had many different arts the ones that are seen as southern came from the north and learnt by the masters who came to the south. wow im not sure if that even made sence, lol sorry is midnight so please excuse my words.

many questions, sorry ^^


*edit*
i was thinking drunken crane would share similar characteristics of MiZhong chuen wouldnt it?

[Sow Choy]

LKH branch, no drunken crane...

We have "Hok Ying Kuen" not a drunken crane...

On his curiculum in our school the english said drunken crane, but when i asked him about it, he said that it is not drunken... A misprint, we had many mis translations... The HK sifus under LKH also state that crane is not drunken...

But some of LKH usa students believe it to be drunken because of this list which was hung in our school...

Joe

[yutyeesam]

I could see why, though, it would be thought of as a drunken crane form, because of all the unicorn stance stuff.

but no body swaying in this form.

[Shaolin Dude]

hmm, I gotta ask my sifu where he learned it from then. the opening is almost the same as that buddha's palm form that is availble on video. maybe it's a regular crane form and I misheard.

another question...the forms that are in the videos, is it modified?

[CLFNole]

If it opens like the buddha palm video it is the crane set. There is no drunken crane. So of the wah lum students learned the set from sifu as a seminar and I think the name was changed to attract more students (if you know what I mean) ;) For some reason american students are mezmorized by anything with the word "drunken" in it.

If it is a LKH form it is just the crane there is no drunken crane.

[Sow Choy]

LKH Videos...

All of the LKH videos with Master Li Siu Hung and myself are not modified... they are presented as we learned them from GM LKH...

And yes, CLF Nole is right about the drunken concept... People are or were mesmerized by its concept... But we only have 1 drunken set...

GM Chan Pui helped GM LKH alot... and GM LKH always had many people helping him promote himself, he was not into himself just into kung fu, so even his books were really helped by students and others at the HK University...

Joe

[David Jamieson]

david,
could you please state your reference sources to that post? Sure Shaolin used staffs, but there were other development in Chinese Martial Arts apart from Shaolin. The use of broadswords in Chinese Martial Arts defiantly pre dates 300 years.

I was speaking of the buddhist temple that was shaolin and not about other arts apart from shaolin.

buddhism forbids killing, ergo bladed weapons would only have come in after a lot of strife and a re-examination of 'right action'. Henece the reference to bladed weapons making it into shaolin only during the 300 years that was the qing v ming rebellion.