Vids of WC Dummy Work? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phil Redmond

10-15-2005, 03:30 PM

Hi All, this is my student Rick 2 years ago when he was 16 training on the first four sections of the dummy. He was just learning so there will be some mistakes. I'll leave these up for a couple of days then take them down.

http://www.sifupr.com/videos/jong1.mpg
http://www.sifupr.com/videos/jong2.mpg
http://www.sifupr.com/videos/jong3.mpg
http://www.sifupr.com/videos/jong4.mpg
Enjoy,
Phil

Matrix

10-15-2005, 05:13 PM

Here's my favorite (http://www.sunnytang.com/MVI_0901.AVI), in spite of the jumpy camera work, etc.

...and yes, I know there are parts missing. There was a time limit imposed at the event.

Phil Redmond

10-15-2005, 05:48 PM

Here's my favorite (http://www.sunnytang.com/MVI_0901.AVI), in spite of the jumpy camera work, etc.

...and yes, I know there are parts missing. There was a time limit imposed at the event.
Thanks that was nice. I'm saving that one.
Phil

Matrix

10-15-2005, 05:56 PM

Thanks that was nice. I'm saving that one.
PhilThanks Phil. FYI, that's my Sigung doing the form, so I'm more than a little bit biased in his favor. :)
BTW, I save all of your clips too. Thanks for passing them along.

Phil Redmond

10-15-2005, 06:14 PM

Thanks Phil. FYI, that's my Sigung doing the form, so I'm more than a little bit biased in his favor. :)
BTW, I save all of your clips too. Thanks for passing them along.
You're very welcome. Here's a clip of William Cheung. I kept bugging him to do a few moves on my dummy. The look in his face was like OK, are you satisfied? :D
Sifu Cheung on the dummy (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/Sifu_jong.mpg)
Phil

Matrix

10-15-2005, 06:31 PM

The look in his face was like OK, are you satisfied. :DThat's how I'd interpret it. :D
Cool clip.:cool:

Chief Fox

10-15-2005, 09:37 PM

Nice clips guys.

couch

10-16-2005, 08:03 AM

http://www.mountainstorm.ca/video/mookjongSifu.AVI

My Sifu performing the first sections of the Jong.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

Phil Redmond

10-16-2005, 01:20 PM

http://www.mountainstorm.ca/video/mookjongSifu.AVI

My Sifu performing the first sections of the Jong.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik
Thanks for sharing Kenton. I'm adding that to my dummy clips collection.
Phil

lawrenceofidaho

10-16-2005, 02:03 PM

lawrenceofidaho

10-16-2005, 02:15 PM

This thread contained the link to the wooden dummy clip that was the most controversial on this forum (that I can remember). -Worth a look, maybe.... -L

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31636
I just realized that the video link on that old thread is dead, so I've e-mailed Phil Redmond to see if he might be able to have it temporarily hosted.......

-Lawrence

Phil Redmond

10-16-2005, 03:01 PM

I just realized that the video link on that old thread is dead, so I've e-mailed Phil Redmond to see if he might be able to have it temporarily hosted.......

-Lawrence
The clip from Lawerence (http://www.sifupr.com/videos/NorbertWD.mpeg)
Phil

Chief Fox

10-16-2005, 04:09 PM

That guy has some fast hands. Not sure how effective some of those strikes would be but he's definitely got skills.

sihing

10-16-2005, 06:57 PM

Yeah I remember that clip and the thread discussing it all. Some complained that the Nobert had no skills, bla bla bla. My take on it all is that the guy has skills, and that when you practice pre arranged forms you should do so at times slow and deliberate to practice absolute correct structure and things like that, but other times at close to full speed or full speed to see what happens and to get as close to real time in application. Yeah some of the movements may have to be adjusted for speed but if you can pull it off with good structure and timing it means you have skills in WC for sure. Good clip.

James

couch

10-16-2005, 07:56 PM

My take on it all is that the guy has skills, and that when you practice pre arranged forms you should do so at times slow and deliberate to practice absolute correct structure and things like that, but other times at close to full speed or full speed to see what happens and to get as close to real time in application. Yeah some of the movements may have to be adjusted for speed but if you can pull it off with good structure and timing it means you have skills in WC for sure. Good clip.

James

I agree that timing is key. Most movements in the Dummy form have two arms moving at once(coming out at the same time...one moving forward while another moves backwards)...so when you speed up the form, structure and timing shouldn't break down.

Peace.

Li Nin KiT

10-16-2005, 09:32 PM

Phil Redmond

10-16-2005, 09:53 PM

It's funny cause in those clips, his arm breaks are side onwards then the original from the bottom up arm breaks.
I'm not sure what you mean in that sentence. Are you saying that there is an original arm break and that the one you see in the clips is not original? If that's the case, what is the original? There are many different lineages of WC. They have different approaches. It's nearly impossible to say what the "original" WC is. Have you been following "The Original Wing Chun" thread?
Anyway, the arm break for a vertical punch is different from the arm break for a horizontal punch. The arm breaks you see in the clip are for a horizontal punch. You can't utilize a "bottom up" arm break against a horizontal punch.
PR

lawrenceofidaho

10-16-2005, 09:55 PM

The clip from Lawerence[/URL] Phil
Thanks, Phil. :)

Phil Redmond

10-17-2005, 12:12 PM

he's better than alot of other ppl but the tan sau like he's holding a ball bothers me, and his sloppy pak saus with the upper fingers and not the palms is sloppy. I'm sure he could retain the same pace without resorting to slapping motions that way and actually have some ging in his movements.

but yeah he sticks to the arms more than most ppl, which is really not bad at all...
You said what bothers you. Now here's a ludicrous example of what bothers me. Let's see, his hand was .022002 millimeters to high. The angle of his knee was .10032435 degrees off. Hs stepped 2.039 inches too far to the left. His hair was combed in the wrong direction . . . . . .and so on Ad Naseum. WC people are really good at this. :(
Yeah I know we need structure but if he can stop a punch with his "holding a ball" tan sau who cares? :D
Phil

Phil Redmond

10-17-2005, 01:11 PM

he may be able to stop a punch with that tan sau but he may also loose a thumb. not to mention I think the ging/force dispersion for a tan sau done that way will be different. might as well close the fist and look like you're doing karate. as for the pak saus, I'd really like to see a person stop a punch with his fingers against a forearm/elbow that way ...

your examples are different than what I was pointing out...
Notice that I didn't mention his pak sau ;). I was just kidding about how "we" including myself, can some times be too critical of each other. That's all.
Phil

wing_nut

10-17-2005, 04:26 PM

he may be able to stop a punch with that tan sau but he may also loose a thumb. not to mention I think the ging/force dispersion for a tan sau done that way will be different. might as well close the fist and look like you're doing karate. as for the pak saus, I'd really like to see a person stop a punch with his fingers against a forearm/elbow that way ...

It looks like his pak and tan are not neccesarily about stopping a punch.
It 's more like using pak or tan to slip or redirect the punch. I noticed how he's not trying to power the dummy.

Liddel

10-17-2005, 06:38 PM

I can see someone throwing a punch at that guy and his lightning pak sao fires out and passes the 'slower punch' just before it catches him right in the face...
:)
Skill is skill but Ho Kung Fu ?
I think not.

stuartm

10-18-2005, 12:55 AM

Hi all,

Just a few thoughts, and as a waiver, i appreciate that you cannot assess someones structure and ability on the basis of an mpeg;)

- that fast dude going 150 mph on the jong - not for me sorry. I saw no evidence of unity , structure, yiu ma, stance, focus. Looked to me like a bit of a display in case there were some fit ladies about !:D I know only his top half was in frame, but no shoulder movement, moving from the centre etc

- also look how the guy is slouching forward and leaning into the body in jut / huen da - mmmmmm.........

- he also looks like hes walking around the dummy , rather than actually moving - the other point is, how may techniques are you looking to hit your opponent with in the street, 1, 2, 3 max??? Better to master juen ma and a solid punch than a range of flashy techniques without substance.

- Matrix - i appreciate your sifu has a gret deal of wing chun experience, but i really can't get my head around why he disengaged so much from the dummy?

- As a final point, speed is not reflection of skill when your hitting an immovable object, neither is speed impressive when you are being attacked with a set technique from a training partner. Real speed is , as an example, slipping a fast jab whilst simultaneously putting you on your arse:D

Just opinions as always..............

Peace, Stuart:)

stuartm

10-18-2005, 02:50 AM

Phil - I was wondering actually why your student 'hopped in' at the start of the dummy form - never seen that anywhere before:confused: What is its significance - how was it explained to you - brdiging technique?????

Sirus

10-18-2005, 09:55 AM

I think what you're asking about is a entry technique as taught by William Cheung. You may not have seen it before if you have never been exposed to his "traditional" wing chun family.

Hope that helps until you get a reply from Phil himself.
That is a entry technique made up by William Cheung, the knee up is suppose to block a kick to the groin, it is the same technique we used in muay thai.

Phil Redmond

10-18-2005, 10:57 AM

That is a entry technique made up by William Cheung, the knee up is suppose to block a kick to the groin, it is the same technique we used in muay thai.
I hope this isn't who I think it is again. :(
Actually Yip Man taught Wm. Cheung the entry using a faak sau. Wm. cheung changed it to a Biu Sau. For you to say that William Cheung made it up you'd have to have been there. Obviously you weren't so what you said is YOUR opinion and not fact..
PR

Sirus

10-18-2005, 11:07 AM

I hope this isn't who I think it is again. :(
Actually Yip Man taught Wm. Cheung the entry using a faak sau. Wm. cheung changed it to a Biu Sau. For you to say that William Cheung made it up you'd have to have been there. Obviously you weren't so what you said is YOUR opinion and not fact..
PR
Sorry did not mean to offend you :o and it is just my opinion like I said we use the same entry in Muay Thai and out of all the wing chun I have seen that move does not exist in any other lineage.

Things that make you go hmmmmm!

Phil Redmond

10-18-2005, 12:09 PM

. . . . . Things that make you go hmmmmm!
You can say that again.
PR

Sirus

10-20-2005, 06:50 PM

What videos!

Phil Redmond

10-20-2005, 06:52 PM

What videos!
At the bottom of the page.
PR

Liddel

10-20-2005, 07:15 PM

Yes some interesting actions.
I myself am of Gm Ip lineage and this is quite different to me, but i was impressd by a few points.

The apparent use of body force and inch or 'kung fu' power (if you will) in the actions and the economic way in which they were used for the most part,
(some actions like elbows in the form section were a little larger than i use)
but it looked good. Footwork is a little different too.

Also the reaction time for simultaneous defend and attack which we all know is a big part of VT timing but we dont see it to often in vids.
Usually i see attack comes - its blocked- then the follow up attack comes,
but in the kicking part of the vid a kick is blocked as the defender launches his kick to the groin and/or body of the attacker, just that little bit more refined.

I like the sticking and grappling parts and also the pole section, although the sticks versus pole i dont like too much only because im a die hard believer of the pole being "the king of weapons" (guns excluded of course) :)

All in all quite different to myself in parts but i thought it was very good.
Someone might tell me is this closer to mainland VT ?
where might it have come from ?
Curious

P.s Belikewater i love your end quote
"There are two rules for being successful in Martial Arts.

Rule 1: Never tell others everything you know. "

Knowledge is power and people wonder why Ip Man taught people differently
"Drugs" ha ha he did want them "all" to know !

Phil Redmond

10-21-2005, 08:53 PM

There are some TWC mjy (jong) clips here:
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/cgi-bin/wck.cgi
Phil

Ernie

10-25-2005, 09:08 AM

the gary lam clips were pretty decent.

His site says that he was Hong Kong full Contact Tournament in 1978-1979. Anybody have any info on this?

Funny thing is I never bothered to ask him , '' I Train with Sifu Lam '' he has the gold coin '' the trophy'' from the tournament on a chain around his neck '' I know because I broke it once while sparring with him :) ''

but I never researched the whole thing since I have never been to impressed titles and trophies

what would you like to know ?

lawrenceofidaho

10-26-2005, 05:30 PM

Funny thing is I never bothered to ask him , '' I Train with Sifu Lam '' he has the gold coin '' the trophy'' from the tournament on a chain around his neck '' I know because I broke it once while sparring with him :) ''

but I never researched the whole thing since I have never been to impressed titles and trophies

what would you like to know ?
I think there are people wondering if when you started training with Sifu Lam if he said; "Grasshopper, after you can snatch the coin from the chain on my neck, it will be time for you to leave."

:D

-L