Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Jarhead101]

hehe, I got this in my email today:

The Biggest Shaolin-Do news in years

Grandmaster Sin has announced the content of his next 4 seminars in Lexington. We have waited for decades to learn the art called Liu Shing (meteor) fist. It is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts. Grandmaster Sin will be teaching that in March and September of 2007. However, you must take both seminars in 2006 to prepare for this art. He will teach 4 katas from the Golden Leopard system. The first two katas this march and then the 3rd and 4th in September. Not only is this an historic time for the students of grandmaster Sin, but you will likely see more Shaolin-Do lower belts, black belts and masters gathered together than have ever been assemble at once in this art. This is also the first external empty-hand form he has taught out since Shaolin Monkey Fist 3 years ago.

[MonkeySlap Too]

What the heck does 'taught out' mean?

[Jarhead101]

MST - Taught out means GM Sin hasn't taught everything he knows (supposedly) and every now and then when the kids are being good he will share the secret katas with the SD crew.

[Radhnoti]

In shaolin-do, I think, there is this feeling that GM Sin has this huge amount of material (obviously). GM Sin usually just teaches a form once, if he works on it later with others (to my knowledge) it would just be his highest ranked guys to polish it, he doesn't work on it in other seminars anyway. He doesn't teach forms to "the masses" over and over. The theory being that the more he repeats, the less he's "teaching out"...'cause he COULD be teaching some other form that no one in SD has seen before, right? There's this general feeling that it's his student's responsibility to retain as much of his knowledge of the forms as possible.

SO, anyway, a "new" form is taught once (though sometimes he'll do the seminar in KY, TN, TX, etc.) then he moves to another. I've seriously heard students worry that he'll never get all the forms he knows "taught out" in his lifetime.

[Scott R. Brown]

Lets get real!!

I've been training in the MA for over 30 years. I can create a SECRET form in about 10 mins depending upon how long i want to make it!

Think about it! All forms were once created by someone. They become traditional after they have been practiced for a few generations!

The reason no one will ever learn all his forms is cuz he makes them up as he goes along. Then he can charge for seminars whenever he needs some cash!. There is nothing magical about a form. It is merely specific movements placed together in varying combinations. Anyone can do it with a little experience and practice!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Has anyone done the math on how many 'forms' and 'styles' he had to learn an hour when Son The' lived in Bandung to have all this 'material'?

[kwaichang]

Martial Arts are not just art but science also. The forms taught by GMST are scientifically based with definite application based upon the exploitation of a biomechanical weakness of the body.
Of the forms I have learned and the movements, if one of you would take the time to look at what has been taught and the lack of replication of the forms then you would know that. A: he does not make them up, B. he is human and might accidentally mis interpret the notes he has as it has been 40 something years since he learned it originally. Therefore instead of a vertical fist it will be a horizontal fist attack but if it hits it will still hurt. and C. The forms all have written notes and explanation as they are taught . ??? who would go to that much trouble for 47 years. When one can earn money much easier another way ???? KC :confused:

[Scott R. Brown]

Because he gets honor and respect from those he cons into believing his forms are something unique and special that is why!

I am not, in fact, denigrating his forms. I know nothing about them. But i do know the MA and i do know forms and how to create them. There is nothing wrong with making up your own forms. I am not being critical of him if he has. But i do know that marketing requires a person to state their forms are ancient, mysterious and contain secret techniques to manipulate the unknowing masses into continually paying money to learn them.

It is your money and your time and you being manipulated. It is your choice and your benefit or detriment.

All I am saying is that NO form is special in and of itself! It is believed to be special that is all and that is what makes it special. A form is a form and nothing more. It is not a magical movement that will bestow anything special or unique onto the practitioner. If you like them do them! But dont think you are learning anything special!

[kwaichang]

We learn history to know the past the past shapes the future. I feel the forms are a recreation of history and by training in them i can somehow "know"the creator and his or her personality or what "special" idea they were trying to convey. By doing so I can preserve history and make a difference in myself. Also some forms have certain emphasis I feel that is the "secret" / "special" technique or way. Sure I pay for the seminars but I also pay for a book that could teach a form. How would you like to spend your money? they are both of history. Training in something that was made up with out an empirical test of time is a waste of time , it hasent been proven. KC:o ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, I wouldn't do SD, as most of the forms I have seen are devoid of the attributes that make them what they are... it's kinda kenpo/kungfuey stuff, rather than CMA... But hey, good luck with that...

To my original comment - anyone do the math?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi kwaichang,

I am not being critical of you or what you feel to be important to you. If you find value in your endeavors and pursuits then that is good for you. But pursue it with knowledge and an independent mind.

I hate to be disillusioning by supplying some “facts of life” but:

It is about “power and control”! As long as I know something you want to know I have control over you. I can dish out my knowledge in small increments over time in order to maintain that control. When I sense that control is slipping I can come up with new “SECRET” forms or techniques to re-establish my control over you! It is called manipulation!

Once you have all my knowledge I am no longer as important to you and I lose a significant amount of authority unless you have sufficient respect and awe of me already conditioned into your mind. The more people I can manipulate this way the greater my honor and respect, the greater the boost to my ego. I can then bask in the glory bestowed upon me by my ignorant and manipulated followers!

[kwaichang]

what style would you try, would you do perhaps jujitsu which had its origins in chin na or perhaps aikido which had its origins in pa kua, of corse bjj had its origins in japenese jj, western boxing had its origin in ancient greek combative arts. Why not go to the source? If what you see today as traditional CMA is passed down from decade to decade then how much change has occured? and perhaps what we see as "real" CMA is not what it once was. If Shaolin Do looks like all these arts you mentioned , example: ,perhaps that is why our children look something like us but not quite the same as us they came from us much like those arts came from Shaolin KC:)

[kwaichang]

If I were Ignorant and all the SD people were ignorant that might be true but as we are not and do have a critical mind and use it I dont see how this statement of control applies I know from experience that no one has control as life will dish out what it will and no one can change that. KC

[CaptinPickAxe]

This reminds me of the nights me and my pals get 5hitfaced and try to come up with "Get rich quick" schemes. It's very plausable that Sin The does create this mumbo jumbo for cash. Hell, This is the same grandmaster that had a fund to buy him a brand new Caddy for his B-Day. This guy is the P-Diddy of the Martial Arts world...killer at marketing and business...sucky at the art. As an ex-shaolin-do student and a participant of an overpriced Sin The seminar, I know what the old man is capable of. And it's frankly not worth 2 mugs of goat pi55.

Shaolin-Do's only saving grace is the practioners who take an interpret the teachings in their own way and apply them to full contact sparring. These are the groups that let me know that Shaolin-Do isn't complete and utter bologna. It's just a shame that the founder/grandmaster is such a fraud, because if he'd just market it as kempo, he'd be out of the fryer.

Let me put it to you this way...I learned from David Lin at a seminar for free. I learned a lot that day. I paid $75 to see a man pull 5hit out of his ass for 3 hours, and all I got was a sweaty gi from some cardio and a bitter taste in my mouth....

the choice is yours

[rickyscaggs]

Isn't it ironic his name is "Sin"? :rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

You missed the point kwaichang!

As long as you think you are learning something special that no one else knows or has learned then you are controlled and manipulated by those whose authority you seem to trust.

There is nothing special about any form! Think of the thousands or forms that have been created in the history of MA, not just CMA but all of them! They are all based upon specific actions, techniques etc. There is nothing new under the sun! Anyone can take the movements found in any form and combine them to create a new form. So what! There is nothing special about any form. Some contain information or techniques not present in some others that is all. The human body moves in specific ranges of motion. This hasn’t changed in millennia. There are only so many ways to punch, kick, throw, joint manipulate, etc. There is a finite number of actions the human body is capable of performing. They may be combined in innumerable ways. When anyone combines those movements into a new creation you have a new form.

Manipulation occurs when I can convince you that I know something that you NEED to know or SHOULD know to have a complete understanding of my ART. If I can manipulate you then you are ignorant of my machinations and ignorant that the new actions I teach are something you can learn else where for much less cost and effort. I gain control of your and your money and I gain your respect and awe. I benefit directly from my manipulation of your ignorance. When another MAist comes along that has more knowledge or as much knowledge as I, he will see past my manipulations and the ordinariness of my teaching and cannot be controlled!

He is the free thinker, not the student I convince to follow my "SECRET" methods!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Does anyone know where I can actually see some video of Shaolin-Do forms?

[Scott R. Brown]

Just observe the manipulation in the cited advert.

You MUST attend 2 foundational Seminars BEFORE you can learn the SUPER SECRET internal forms.

AND

They are ONLY the 4th highest and most aggressive of the internal arts!!

That sets you up to pay more money for the 3rd, 2nd and 1st highest.

AND

If his Supreme Highness, Super Galactic Grand Master lives long enough he will come up with some long lost SECRET forms he almost forgot in order to MANIPULATE money from more ignorant followers!

[kwaichang]

Sounds like you are a Bruce Lee devotee so you must remember the line from his movie the silent flute where the actor says one is taught in accordance to his fitness to learn. Some can grasp the truth of the form and some cant some need the basic punch kick grab and that is fine however, Bruce Lee was gifted to grow and learn beyond his years on earthand we are not him but even he did forms as a base to where he was. The purpose of forms is multifaceted 1 to teach the body and instill muscle memory 2 to instruct the unconscious to perform under high levels of stress 3 to gain new tecniques along with new concepts of application. Forms ie: a series of offensive and defensive movements are there for a reason to pass down a particular concept or thought or whatever. I have trained in other arts prior to SD and I have seen the real deal I also trained in JKD and have found there are more than one way to punch. I think we all wish there was a "SECRET' technique that would give us ultimate power and unfortunately the only secret technique is hard practice. KC :)

[kwaichang]

Read closer the first forms are not the same as the last ones they come from a different system Leopard not internal , cant get blood out of a turnip no matter how much you squeeze it. KC:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi kwaichang,

Well said!! There is some truth to your statements, but there is still an underlying manipulation involved. It presumes the MASTER has the knowledge and maturity to be fair and just in his passing on his SECRET knowledge. Unfortunately these individuals are extremely rare and I sense this type of individual would not use marketing and manipulation to attract followers or make money!

True knowedge is free for the asking. Payments are primarliy to cover expenses and no sincere student is turned away because they cannot cover the costs. Nor are extra Seminars required!! If Sin really cared to pass on his SECRET forms there are easier and chepaer manners to accomplish this!

[Scott R. Brown]

Read closer the first forms are not the same as the last ones they come from a different system Leopard not internal , cant get blood out of a turnip no matter how much you squeeze it. KC:eek:

This doesnt matter! It is clearly creating more cash rewards for the Master! In reality there is NO form one must learn inorder to understand a later form!

This is a rationalization used to enforce status postitions within an art!

[godzillakungfu]

If I were Ignorant and all the SD people were ignorant that might be true but as we are not and do have a critical mind and use it I dont see how this statement of control applies I know from experience that no one has control as life will dish out what it will and no one can change that. KC

This coming from a person saying SD is scientifically based. If I hit you upside the head with a bat it doesn't mean it is CMA. It will most definitely hurt but, it isn't kung fu.


Defending your art is one thing being blind to much of the hyprocrisy is another. You have already stated many of the falsehoods I heard in the system. Do some rersearch before saying the "all fighting comes from China" bit they throw around.


Ignorance is bliss.

[kwaichang]

Having spent time with GMS I know him to be such a man. I feel he is sincere in what he teaches and if this is a manipulation of me then so be it as long as I am growing as a CMA as I feel I am i am happy after all . I have done what I want which is to learn and grow what ever the cost. HELL with gas 3.00 a gallon you have to make a little money just to go to the store. Bruce Lee charged 275.00 an hour remember. no one bashes him the price of something is what ever you feel it is worth. KC

[Scott R. Brown]

Do some rersearch before saying the "all fighting comes from China" bit they throw around.


The oldest illustrated self defense techniques are found on a wall in an Egyptian tomb!

[kwaichang]

Read again I also mentioned greece and japan and brazil doh KC

[MasterKiller]

Does anyone know where I can actually see some video of Shaolin-Do forms?

http://164.58.65.137/media/shaolindo!haha/

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/v_legends_v3.html

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

[Scott R. Brown]

I dont agree with Bruce's exorbatant fees either!

I agree with you though, if you enjoy it and find value in that is what is important!

I am just making conversation and not intending to be making a value judgment on your decision to train in Shaolin-Do!

However, when i was a youngster i believed my "MASTER":rolleyes: to be an honest and sincere man as well! As i grew up and matured i learned otherwise!

[kwaichang]

Mr Brown Thanks you are a true MA. KC

[Scott R. Brown]

I appreciate the kind words!!

Good Luck with your training!

[kwaichang]

Hey godzilla if you practice on bat techniques then it is Kung FU KC

[Ou Ji]

Isn't it ironic his name is "Sin"? :rolleyes:

I still find it interesting that his name can be found in abSinThe, as in the Green Fairy.
:D

[Invisible-fist]

Sholin Do is not kempo! That should be obvious. Kempo doesn't use low stances or Chinese weapons. Shaolin Do is CMA, of a particular (indoneisian) lineage.

You dont have to like it, but don't tell me it ain't CMA, and especially don't tell me its kempo.

[godzillakungfu]

Having spent time with GMS I know him to be such a man. I feel he is sincere in what he teaches and if this is a manipulation of me then so be it as long as I am growing as a CMA as I feel I am i am happy after all . I have done what I want which is to learn and grow what ever the cost. HELL with gas 3.00 a gallon you have to make a little money just to go to the store. Bruce Lee charged 275.00 an hour remember. no one bashes him the price of something is what ever you feel it is worth. KC


Enjoy yoursel,f that is good. I think GMT is a real good guy with good skills. I think he was swayed a certain way and has no control over his org. This is speaking from direct experience you don't have. Remember it was Karate at one point, all unknown names aside.

Your enjoyment has nothing at all to do with the thread. Why wait 30+ years to teach a high level form. You can't use the "they aren't worthy/ready" defense because lower belts will be able to attend. That is what people are trying to point out. The fact that you (myself included at one point) don't see that is what is bothering people.

Oh and no it could be Karate, JKD, or most likely just Baseball.

[Royal Dragon]

if this is a manipulation of me then so be it as long as I am growing as a CMA

The problem is you are NOT growing as a CMA!! You are learning something totally unto itself. I've seen clips of the SD Mantis form, and belive me it is not even remotely like Northern, or Southern Preying mantis in an way, let alone something CMA.

To be nice, it looked like a karate Kata with some "Hook" hands thrown in for good measure. My most honest opinion of all, no holds barred, is it looked like a Chung Moo Quan style form.

[Golden Tiger]

All I am saying is that NO form is special in and of itself! It is believed to be special that is all and that is what makes it special. A form is a form and nothing more. It is not a magical movement that will bestow anything special or unique onto the practitioner. If you like them do them! But dont think you are learning anything special!

Then why learn anything at all? If a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, why study any art because I think that even you can figure out how to punch and kick. But then again, if that new form teaches you of a way to generate power, speed, flexibility, etc., then perhaps it would be benificial to check it out.

To everyone else, to those of us (stupid as we all may be) that have been in SD for a long time, this is pretty exciting. For those that don't believe in interal arts, thats fine. But there are quiet a few of us that spend a lot of time on Tai Chi, Hsing Ie and Pa Kua and think (dillussional as we are) that we are gaining a benifit from it. So if he is going to teach another internal set, I then I will be there. I'll be sure to give a nice, unbiased report when I get it.

[MasterKiller]

Sholin Do is not kempo! That should be obvious. Kempo doesn't use low stances or Chinese weapons.

You better tell these guys:
http://www.kempokungfu.com/demasco&materra.jpg.jpg

[Lama Pai Sifu]

That's a funny pic in the last post. Those two guys, Steve D. and Charlie M. make me laugh!

They look like someone just threw them some unfamiliar items and told them to stand there!

[SimonM]

I can't get the picture to load. Could someone try copying it to a different URL?

[Judge Pen]

To everyone else, to those of us (stupid as we all may be) that have been in SD for a long time, this is pretty exciting. For those that don't believe in interal arts, thats fine. But there are quiet a few of us that spend a lot of time on Tai Chi, Hsing Ie and Pa Kua and think (dillussional as we are) that we are gaining a benifit from it. So if he is going to teach another internal set, I then I will be there. I'll be sure to give a nice, unbiased report when I get it.

for 16 years I've heard of Liu Shing (aka Meteor Fist) as another internal style. GMS never taught it to anyone before. I'm curious to see what it looks like, to see what makes it internal vs. external, to see what principles distinguish it from Hsing I, Pa Kua and Tai Chi.

And I'm especially curious to compare it to other sources to see who else out there may have this (if anyone).

Could GMS be making it up? sure, like Scott Brown said. But to do that he would have had to reference it for at least 16 years (probably longer, right GT?) before deciding to create it and then teach it.

As for the animal forms (leopard) being taught as a precursor, it is common in SD to have to learn a set of material as training. The leopard's techniques could be a door to the techniques of this form. In the past GMS and his brother Hsiang has refused to teach certain material because no one could do the underlying training necessary to learn the material.

So, what does this mean for me? I don't know. . . . I'll have to see the material, the principles, the theory and the application and make up my own mind. Just like I try to do for every form I've ever learned.

[MasterKiller]

The lawyers for Mr. Demasco and Mr. Matera would like me to inform you that they are not to be referred to as "funny." Futhermore, they would prefer for you to address them as Master Demasco and Master Matera, as you have not earned a fifth degree black belt in Shaolin Kempo and have not been granted the honor of using their Christian names.

[godzillakungfu]

To be nice, it looked like a karate Kata with some "Hook" hands thrown in for good measure. My most honest opinion of all, no holds barred, is it looked like a Chung Moo Quan style form.

You are one of the reasons OYD/Chung Moo Quan and the SD people are inseperable in peoples minds. Just like the Caddy B-day story that keeps floating around. This is a morph of 2 different leaders into one.


I'm sorry but, you are one of the last people whose opinion I'd respect on critiquing CMA. VCD/VHS/DVD/Correspondence courses, come on you are no better than the seminars you make fun of SD for hosting.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

OK, I would now say 'comical' instead of funny.

And I just saw the clips of this "Shaolin-Do" art.

If you are studying it and you enjoy it, great.

But let's set the record straight; This is not a chinese art in any way, shape or form (from the clips I've just seen). I am not discussing anyone's character here, just the fact (FACT - I wanted to emphasise that) that this is not an art which could be called Kung-Fu or Chinese.

And who posted the link of mongolian wrestling and shaio-jao guys throwing each other in Beijing? What's that got to do with this "Shaolin-Do"?

[MasterKiller]

And who posted the link of mongolian wrestling and shaio-jao guys throwing each other in Beijing? What's that got to do with this "Shaolin-Do"?
There are some Shaolin-Do videos mixed in with the good stuff...

[Judge Pen]

I hate those videos. Much of this has been discussed ad naseum in other threads. I've seen some decent vids on the internet, but not many. I'll say this though, the videos reflect the style of many students who can't physically do the material the way it should be done (or do it very sloppy or both), but learn it (and pass tests anyway). For example, the 5 Animal form here, http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65, (original 5 animal form) should have a full single-leg squat in it, but this guy obviously can't do that.

[EarthDragon]

judge pen, you said

[. In the past GMS and his brother Hsiang has refused to teach certain material because no one could do the underlying training necessary to learn the material.[/B]LOL. you can't be serious about this sare you Judge?

I am getting a kick out of this thread. We have a school in the Mckinley mall called
karate -Do

the owner and his teachers are all korean, they wear southern chinese frog button silf uniforms and call thier forms kata. and thier teachers Sifu's
LOL its a joke. this sounds to be the same but better marketed and modified to fool more people.

[Judge Pen]

Yes at one time they didn't teach out material because people couldn't do the fundamentals required for that material. I didn't say it was that way now. I think too much material gets taught. ED, if you want to take the time to go back and read all of my posts on SD, you will see that I have a critical eye of my own style and many people who practice it. Having said that, I think that if the material is taught correctly, drilled correctly, and learned correctly, it is a very effective martial art.

It's frustrating because much of the stuff that is pointed out as bad is bad. I know it, everyone here knows it, and most people in SD know it. The thing is, individual teachers attempting to market their school obviously don't see it because 95% of the video I see on the web of SD is average SD at best. Most of that is pretty freaking bad. That is normally an internal matter about people learning material that they can't realistically do (which I have several forms with moves in them that I can't physically do--but I'm working on them--I just don't demo them as a good form). However, with the exposure that SD has in the advent of the internet, internal matters are now publicized (especially when they are put out there for consumption).

I'm all about people doing the best that they can. I'm not a naturally gifted martial artist or athlete. I get buy and work hard. But I'm not putting videos of myself and saying "This is good SD!" I'm more than willing to video myself, but all I'll say is "This is the best that I can do."

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Golden Tiger,

Once again you have missed the point!

I never said forms were not worth learning. My skepticism is raised when I read a shameless marketing ploy! I enjoy forms and find benefit from doing them. I don’t rely on others to give them to me. I make my own.

There are only so many ways a body moves, therefore only so many actions it may perform. There are a specific number of chokes, pressure points, punches, strikes, throws, etc. There is nothing in any form that presently exists that hasn’t been done before somewhere at sometime and therefore there is no specific form that is better than another. Each form may focus on a different aspect of training, but they are not unique to Shaolin-Do! Forms do serve a purpose, but to use marketing ploys to attract participant’s smacks of commercialism. Once commercialism is present one must question the motives of the sponsors! Maybe they have pure intentions, maybe they don’t. I am skeptical!

The original post by Jarhead101 states the Meteor Fist Form “…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.” First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive. Those are external arts! Aggresiveness reduces the effectivenss of an internal form! Second of all the students are meant to be awed by the fact it is the 4th highest form! This is intended to bring a sense of awe and uniqueness to the seminar and designed to attract participants! This is commercial manipulation.

If a student is truly a participant of the Shaolin-Do they would not need such commercial manipulations to attract them to a seminar. All it would take is a simple announcement that the master is holding a rare seminar to teach the Meteor Fist!! Sensationalism is designed to attract more participants for the purpose of making money. A respectable Master does not need to resort to such antics. His quiet actions speak for him!

Neither of these statements would impress a MA who has been training as long as I have unless he has an emotional investment in the style. That is political or social status to maintain or one in which he wishes to attain. If an individual just wants to learn a new and interesting form that is fine. But don’t think it is anything special, because it is not. If you think it is, fine, I don't! You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine! Something is not special just because someone in authority says it is. In this circumstance special is for the young and inexperienced, not the educated, and experienced!

The fact that requiring two other seminars to learn other forms prior to the SUPER SECRET form is a common practice only means that it is a common method of creating a cash income, not that it is appropriate or reasonable! It is not different than any other form of commercialism. Create a need and then charge to fulfill that need! The need in this case is manufactured and required and then rationalized as necessary to give foundational information or to prove worthiness or to demonstrate commitment etc. All this is BS! It is manipulation for the purposes so bestowing or gaining status and to make money!!

Maybe I am wrong! I have been around for a long time, so I don’t think so! If someone wants to learn the forms and to pay for them fine. Go to it! Have fun and give it your full commitment! That doesn’t mean it is not commercial manipulation, but neither does it mean your time is wasted. But don’t think you are learning anything special either.

If you want something special, I will create a form for you myself and you can be one of only two people on the planet who know MY super secret form. Then you can feel special!! ;)

[Mortal1]

Scott R. Brown

Another great post!


"I am a fan sir!"--- Cousin eddy when he meets Wayne Newton in Vacation 3.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Scott, you usually make good points, but your posts are so long.

Anyway, I agree that the marketing that announced the form is a bit much. As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm curious about this form and I have been for a while.

Aggression in internal arts: I see your point, but I would point out that the marketing said it was the most aggressive internal art, but it did not say that aggression was the key to the art. As you said, internal arts can be very aggressive (Hsing-Ie). So stating that it is aggressive (or the most aggressive) could be a statement of fact not intent.

Personally I want to see what the big deal is (no matter how the announcement took form), but I don't have the intention to go to Lexington and learn the seminar. Maybe someday I'll learn all this extra material, but right now I have enough to work on. I took one seminar over the past three years to learn an extra-form. Seminar forms just aren't my thing. If this material is ever taught again by my teachers then I'll learn it then, and at my own pace.

[Ou Ji]

If you want something special, I will create a form for you myself and you can be one of only two people on the planet who know MY super secret form. Then you can feel special!! ;)

Cool, where do I sign up? It has to cost at least $500 or it's not worth the trouble of learning. :D

[Judge Pen]

Oh I noticed that neither the Texas e-mail or the announcement on the SDA site say that the form is invincible or super-secret. That commentary was added by jarhead 101.

Hey, does anyone know what happened to the former poster YingYang Dagger?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oddly enough I don't begrudge Sin The' his model f teaching, or any desire to be paid for services rendered. Only in America, bastion of free market economics, is the tme of the teacher viewed as something that should be given for 'free.'

JP is a pretty honest guy - so I can't fault him. The issue one should consider is NOT the seminar structure, or the prerequisites (I have prerequisites in how I teach, how can't you?). The real question is "How does anyone develop any real skill this way" and "Does Sin The' have any real skill in these dozens of systems?"

He is probably a not bad Karate/modified CMA guy. But it's not CMA, and certainly not historic CMA - despite the claims of SD the traditional skills are still alive in China, despite the rise of modern wushu. The SD we've al seen, even from Sin The' is laughable when compared to say, any of the orthodox Preying Mantis schools, or god help us, IMA.

If it wasn't for the wild claims and the goofy patches, they would probably be left alone.

I've met some SD experts. I really didn't think much of thie skills. The 'Qin Na' skills were JMA. The training methods and strategies were JMA. The forms were... silly CMA. But boy, they were in GREAT shape.

Well you can't judge a system entirelly by a few meet n' greets, but where there is smoke...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi JudgePenn,

Yes they are long, I apologize. Blame my years of writing philosophy papers wherein you are required to write in complete thoughts.

I am not intending to be critical of anyone in Shaolin-Do or anyone who wishes to participate in the seminars. I am being critical of the manner in which the seminar is advertised and the seeming blatant commercialism. I understand commercialism is not uncommon in the MA. However, it IS contrary to my sense of appropriateness. To me the quieter and more humble the school the more I respect it! Even if I don’t like the particular style I can respect the honor and humility of the teachers!

My criticism of the word “aggressive” is in the choice of the word and its implication, not the relativity of the Meteor Fists aggressiveness in comparison to other internal styles. The word implies characteristics that are opposed to the underlying principles of internal arts. Thus it must have been chosen as a provocative term designed to create sensation which is a commercial motivation. From your description it seems it would be more appropriate to describe it as a “Dynamic” Form! An aggressive attitude when performing an internal art reduces the ability to generate internal power, dynamism does not!

Hi Ou Ji,

I take the opposite view! If it isn’t free it isn’t worth knowing! I would only consider paying to defray costs not to provide profit!

[Judge Pen]

The 'Qin Na' skills were JMA. The training methods and strategies were JMA. The forms were... silly CMA. But boy, they were in GREAT shape.

Well, I'm glad they were at least in shape. I've met some that weren't.

My finacee' started training to get in better shape and to spend more time with me. When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?"

Of course she is japanese. . . .

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi MonkeySlap,

If one has been training in any Art for 10 or 15 years and still hasn’t acquired enough of a foundation to learn the Meteor Fist it would seem to me there may be some deficiency in the curriculum. If on the other hand the foundation can be learned in two easy seminars then why haven’t they been taught before? If anyone may attend including white belts, it seems that it can’t be anything like learning to fall before you learn to throw, or learn to perform a front kick before a crescent kick! In my examples you can see a clear connection as to how one comes from the other. But not in the case of learning two forms before the Meteor Fist when it is available to anyone who attends!

Perhaps a beginner would not understand all the implications and applications of the Meteor Fist, but he is apparently still capable of learning it, therefore it seems unnecessary to be required to attend previous seminars! We must conclude there are commercial reasons.

I don’t fault anyone per se for wanting to make money, I do find fault in blatant commercialism designed to manipulate others into thinking they are learning something special. I will accept JudgePenn’s report that SD website is not promoting the form as super secret.

And finally to reiterate:

I have nothing against Shaolin-Do! I might even like some of the forms. I am criticizing apparent sensationalized commercialism to attract people to a seminar that is all! To me is just one step away from cutting cucumbers off someone’s throat with crappy sword techniques. Dignified arts don’t need to resort to such antics! (I am not saying Shaolin-Do is not dignified. I don’t know one way or the other. But this sort of e-mail makes it appear so!)

[Judge Pen]

I will accept JudgePenn’s report that SD website is not promoting the form as super secret.

Let's be clear, this is a form that has never been taught by SD, but I was referring to the subject of the thread saying it's SuperSecret and invincable. It said neither.

As for pre-requisites, my understanding is that this is common and traditional. You must learn 5 roads before you learn the linkage set. Not that you couldn't learn linkage first, but it's just not done that way. It builds a foundation first.

So maybe I, with more than a few years expericenc, could learn this set and grasp the fundamentals. Maybe I couldn't (who knows?) but if that was the way it was designed to be taught, then that's they way it will be shared.

But hey, if it also allows for more money, we are in america.

[Scott R. Brown]

Let's be clear, this is a form that has never been taught by SD, but I was referring to the subject of the thread saying it's SuperSecret and invincable. It said neither.


Yes, I understood your intent. My intention was to state I accept your report based upon my trust in your integrity and therefore do not feel the need to verify the facts for myself.


As for pre-requisites, my understanding is that this is common and traditional. You must learn 5 roads before you learn the linkage set. Not that you couldn't learn linkage first, but it's just not done that way. It builds a foundation first.

I understand this to be the case as well! I just don't agree with it! It may be rationalized as tradition, but that does not make it necessary or appropirate and as you say it has the attending benefit of creating greater profit!! Which to me makes the motivations suspect and less than pure.

In many facets of life I am an idealist! I reject some forms of tradition while other forms of tradition I adhere too! I have reasonable purpose for following the traditions I do and do not blindly abide questionable behaviors that appear to bestow status or monetary benefits while being disguised as tradition!

[Juan Alvarez]

Mind if I take a shot at this?

On Shaolin-Do:

I used to study in a Shaolin-ized version of vietnamese wing chun. Now, though it was pretty much unorthodox approach to wing chun (5 animal sets, hard qi-gong, etc.) the system was complete in its own way. The people that train there are serious and some of the toughest mofos I've seen. The problem is that it is packed, labeled and sold as "The Original Wing Chun, true lineage of the Shaolin Temple (TM)" and, of course, priced as such. Now, if you want to believe in something like that and you have the money to invest in such schools, well go right ahead! You will learn many forms, get in great physical shape and feel good about yourself. What you will not get is the system they are selling you. It is not CMA, plain and simple. And you can work the forms as much as you wants, it will not become CMA over time... Unless you study under a CMA teacher.

Judge Pen : "When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?""

Nothing, really. Just don't call it Traditional Chinese...

On Meteor Fist Form:

WTF is that? Does anybody have some info on this? I presently study Xing-yi and have never heard any such thing as an internal art called "Meteor Fist Form". Call me ignorant!

“…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.”

Have they ever seen Xing-yi in action?

"First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive." - Scott

Have you ever seen Xing-yi in action? Of course, agression is not the intended principle behind the art, but the result is nothing else!

Juan

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen : "When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?""

Nothing, really. Just don't call it Traditional Chinese...


Assume, for the sake of argument, that the material is CMA, but the training methonds, power generation was mixed and influenced with JMA and IMA. In that case it is all of the above-- which makes it a unique thing in and of itself. I understand and agree with your point. I try to not get caught up in history and lineage as much, but I do like to know where things come from. . . . which brings me here:



On Meteor Fist Form:

WTF is that? Does anybody have some info on this? I presently study Xing-yi and have never heard any such thing as an internal art called "Meteor Fist Form". Call me ignorant!

“…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.”

Have they ever seen Xing-yi in action?


I have not heard of it outside of SD; however, there are more than just three internal styles (xing yi, bagua and taiji) there's styles like bajiquan and mizong that express themselves as an internal art to some degree. Until I learn this Meteor Fist set (and I may never learn it) I'll not really know if other poeple have something similar (and call it something different) or if it is something unique to SD. One would think that other people would have it if its origins are traditionally chinese.


"First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive." - Scott

Have you ever seen Xing-yi in action? Of course, agression is not the intended principle behind the art, but the result is nothing else!


I think that is where Scott and I eventually ended up agreeing. Not the intent but the result.

[Scott R. Brown]

Have you ever seen Xing-yi in action? Of course, agression is not the intended principle behind the art, but the result is nothing else!Juan

Yes, aggression is evident in all properly practiced external AND internal arts. If the purpose is combat there is certainly aggression produced as a physically manifested aspect. I am not refering to the external aspect, but the internal mind set! When aggression is manifest in the mind, one loses the ability to generate maximal internal power and the ability to apply it with proper efficiency and effectiveness!

[Juan Alvarez]

"... there are more than just three internal styles (xing yi, bagua and taiji) there's styles like bajiquan and mizong that express themselves as an internal art to some degree."

Agreed! It is a generalisation that the three main internal style are Taiji quan, Bagua Zhang and Xing-yi. As I understand it, the three styles were reunited under the "Internal styles" banner by Cheng Ting Hua (Bagua school), Liu De Guan (Taiji school) and Li Cun Yi and Liu Wei Xiang (Xing-yi school). They called the family "Nei Jia Quan" not realizing that there was another style with that name all ready. Since the original Nei Jian Quan had some historical connection with WuDang and Zhang San Feng, the newly formed internal family was wrongfully associated with them. (All this info is taken from Dan Miller's in the english edition of Sun Lu Tang's book on The Study of Form-Mind Boxing). So, to me, this seems to be yet another marketing scheme trying to sell the Meteor Fist Form as Taiji's, Bagua's and Xing-yi's unknown little sister art... Then again, I might be mistaking and I would really be interested to have more info on this form when and if you learn it ;)

Juan

[Judge Pen]

this seems to be yet another marketing scheme trying to sell the Meteor Fist Form as Taiji's, Bagua's and Xing-yi's unknown little sister art... Then again, I might be mistaking and I would really be interested to have more info on this form when and if you learn it ;)


Well I think a couple of things may be going on. One, Taiji, xing-yi and Ba Gua are the three main internal styles taught in SD too (all of these have more than one form taught in SD) but we also have independant internal forms and qi gong sets that are taught. So labeling Meteor fist as the 4th internal system is accurate in that it is the 4th internal system under the umbrella of SD. Second, most people are familiar with the Nei Jian classificaitions and this distinguishes meteor fist from that in a way that most american martial artists can easily understand. Many of the people the notice is intended to reach do not have an extensive background in the internal arts. Our first internal set, if you will, isn't taught until at least a year into the system unless you take a seperate tai chi class which some schools offer.

[Juan Alvarez]

From that point of view, it is understood. Thank you for your clarification! ;)

Juan

[GuSpeed]

Those videos of Shaolin-DO is the most BS sh*t I've ever seen!!

That sh*t a joke right? I wanna say that's not kung fu, but it has some kung fu in it. It's really crappy no offense. And if you wanna tell me to shut up, then kick my ass and impress me. Otherwise I'm not impress and I'm sitting here laughing!

I can't believe people are fool enough to fall for this sh*t

[MasterKiller]

Those videos of Shaolin-DO is the most BS sh*t I've ever seen!!

That sh*t a joke right? I wanna say that's not kung fu, but it has some kung fu in it. It's really crappy no offense. And if you wanna tell me to shut up, then kick my ass and impress me. Otherwise I'm not impress and I'm sitting here laughing!

I can't believe people are fool enough to fall for this sh*t



******! I'm tire of hearing people saying oh my style is better than yours and stuff. Well guess what? Duke it out and find out....:p On top of that people keep on talkin about forms and shaolin do this and that...

Well do your form and record it on video and post it on the net. I have yet to see people really put their forms for other martial artist to critique. I'm working on getting a camera to do the recording so I can post my forms up so people can see my style.

I'm not trying to be as ASS but really people talk so much about forms better than that guy. Well do your form and post it and someone else post their forms and compare.

EASY;)


:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Some interesting results from googleing "meteor fist"

http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Liu_Shing_Ch'uan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Shing_Ch%27uan

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-868.html

Interesting (especially the last link to another KFO thread). Any Hung Gar players no more about Liu Shing? I have no idea where these internet encylopedias get their information so there references mean little. I did find refarences to raining fist or metero fist as techniques in specific styles (namely long fist). Anyone know of this technique?

[Golden Tiger]

This is so silly. The form in question is not being taught for 2 freaking years, why all the worry about it.

The form is nothing new. It was discussed in the book he wrote that was talked about to death on the other forum.

I have been aware of this form since the early 80's. If he made it up, at least he had plenty of time to perfect it.

If he held a seminar on properly wiping your butt, he could count on at least 100 people. He is not teaching this one as a marketing ploy.

We bought him a used Nissan Altima, not a caddy, because his car was falling apart.

He is one of the least money hungry people I know. Stays in the cheapest hotel in town, used to drive a wreck and also used to train and teach 8 to 10 hours a day....a lot of time for free.

Scott R. Brown talks way too much. Remember succinct???

I think I am going to have to retire from here..you all are going to give me an aneurysm...or a tumor...or an ulcer for sure.

[MasterKiller]

I think I am going to have to retire from here..you all are going to give me an aneurysm...or a tumor...or an ulcer for sure.

Ulcers are caused by bacteria, not stress.;)

[godzillakungfu]

The above was the story I heard. The caddy story that pops up is usually attributed to OYD/CMQ.

One thing when did it become the 4th internal art. Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua are the other three correct? Or are we going somewhere new?

I always thought Liu ho-Ba Fa was the fourth. According what I was told at Shaolin-Do functions.

[Ou Ji]

Hi Ou Ji,

I take the opposite view! If it isn’t free it isn’t worth knowing! I would only consider paying to defray costs not to provide profit!

???

Got any free seminars hanging around you aren't using? :-)

Where do you guys keep finding all this free stuff?

Actually I'm not so sure I would trust free.

Golden Tiger
I heard Sin The taught out Aneurysm Fist years ago so you should probably have that by now.:eek:

[chud]

for 16 years I've heard of Liu Shing (aka Meteor Fist) as another internal style. GMS never taught it to anyone before. I'm curious to see what it looks like, to see what makes it internal vs. external, to see what principles distinguish it from Hsing I, Pa Kua and Tai Chi.

And I'm especially curious to compare it to other sources to see who else out there may have this (if anyone).

Could GMS be making it up? sure, like Scott Brown said. But to do that he would have had to reference it for at least 16 years (probably longer, right GT?) before deciding to create it and then teach it.

As for the animal forms (leopard) being taught as a precursor, it is common in SD to have to learn a set of material as training. The leopard's techniques could be a door to the techniques of this form. In the past GMS and his brother Hsiang has refused to teach certain material because no one could do the underlying training necessary to learn the material.

So, what does this mean for me? I don't know. . . . I'll have to see the material, the principles, the theory and the application and make up my own mind. Just like I try to do for every form I've ever learned.

I'd like to add my two cents if I may. I am an ex-ShaolinDo student. I attended a ShaolinDo school briefly on a trial basis and ended up leaving, not so much because of the reasons most people post on the web, but rather because I found my current sifu who teaches exactly what I am interested in learning, as opposed to ShaolinDo which taught some things that I was interested in learning but also many other things that I was not interested in learning (since they teach such a broad scope of material).

Regarding GM Sin, I met him at one of his seminars. He seemed like a kind and sincere person, and he was certainly in great shape for his age. He is often criticized for claiming to know 900 forms or for possibly making up forms, however what I noticed was that when I attended his seminar he had a sheet of parchment with the movements of the form written down on it in both chinese characters and english. Occasionally he would refer to this sheet during the seminar. My point is that if GM Sin had just made up the form he would have just taught the made up form from memory, but instead he was working off of some notes written in Chinese that he obviously got from someone. If you believe that he got the information from his Shaolin master then he is apparently a repository of vast martial arts knowledge and a living treasure, but if you believe that he made it up or just lifted it from other styles then he is a fraud running a McDojo. Which is the truth? Each person will have to decide for himself I suppose.

Regarding the issues with the Japanese influence in his school, both in the name Shaolin-DO and the gi's that the students wear, this didn't really bother me because I just chalked it up to the fact that he was a person of Chinese descent who grew up in Indonesia.

I was more concerned with the fact that the school tried to teach too many different forms, many of which didn't seem to really go well together, and for this reason I left and focused on studying with a sifu who teaches strictly internal styles.

In closing I think that Shaolin-Do is a good school for some people, and I don't fault anyone for wanting to study there. It just wasn't for me.

[Judge Pen]

I have been aware of this form since the early 80's. If he made it up, at least he had plenty of time to perfect it.


I thought the same thing. :D If he did create it, at least he's had it a while.


If he held a seminar on properly wiping your butt, he could count on at least 100 people. He is not teaching this one as a marketing ploy.


Well I don't know about wiping your butt (I can figure that out on my own), but GMS has two seminars a year in Lexington anyway and they are always well attended so requiring people take all 4 pre-requisite forms to learn Liu Shing probably won't make him any more money then if he taught out 6 unrelated forms over that time. In fact, he will probably lose money as his base attendance will be set in the first seminar and will no doubt fall off over the next 5 because of the various personal issues that will come up among the attendees.


He is one of the least money hungry people I know. Stays in the cheapest hotel in town, used to drive a wreck and also used to train and teach 8 to 10 hours a day....a lot of time for free.


From my experience this is true. When I started SD, I lived in an extremely rural part of Appalachia. This county in Virginia did not even have a 4 lane road (still doesn't). It was 5 hours from Lexington and yet every three months GMS would come down for a test. He didn't make much money on these trips (not that many people tested) but he was there every three months. He could have sent some Associate master down to give the test to save him time, so I never thought that he was in it for the money. To make a living, sure, but not gratuitously.

[Ou Ji]

Occasionally he would refer to this sheet during the seminar. My point is that if GM Sin had just made up the form he would have just taught the made up form from memory, but instead he was working off of some notes written in Chinese that he obviously got from someone.

First off, I really don't care either way but .....

I've made up forms before and I have to refer to tape if I want to do them again because I don't commit them to memory. However, if I were going to teach or perform it I would certainly go over it well ahead of time so it would be committed to short term memory so I would have to stop and figure it out at the seminar. I'm sure he could do this too but then you wouldn't have the great visual of a parchment with chinese writing.




but if you believe that he made it up or just lifted it from other styles then he is a fraud running a McDojo.

If he lifted them from other styles then it would be possible to compare them to the styles they were lifted from. In the case of the mantis sets they don't compare to any branch of mantis.

If he made them up then the question is 'Is he qualified?' and the proof would most likely be in their usage. Making up forms does not equate to fraud. If it did then a lot of styles have fraudulent masters in their past.

[MonkeySlap Too]

This is a paradigm issue... one that has no victory conditions...

[chud]

However, if I were going to teach or perform it I would certainly go over it well ahead of time so it would be committed to short term memory so I would have to stop and figure it out at the seminar. I'm sure he could do this too but then you wouldn't have the great visual of a parchment with chinese writing.


Maybe I didn't explain it well before; he did not refer to this paper with the chinese characters as if he was trying to use it as a prop for dramatic effect. His suitcase was sitting in the back corner (he had just flown in) and once or twice during the seminar he referred to it as he walked by, but it wasn't done as a display and he never held up the parchment and said, "look I have this parchment which was given to me by my master". In fact he never mentioned it at all. It was something that me and one or two other people who were in this back part of the school saw sitting on his suitcase. I made a mental note of it because I appreciate chinese calligraphy and though it looked cool (I also thought it would be nice if I could get a copy of it, but didn't ask). Anyway, my impression of Master Sin was that he was a nice person and a sincere guy who cares about his students. As I stated previously I did not leave Shaolin-Do because of him, I left because I found another sifu who was exactly what I was looking for.

[Fei jiao]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

[godzillakungfu]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

Don't mix creation with having. Yes, Tai Chi Bagua and many other styles were created outside of Shaolin.

Shaolin-Do does teach mostly correct history and legends. We were never told Shaolin created these styles just that at some point they wound up in the temple.

[BentMonk]

It is absolutely hilarious. If GM Sin is a master of marketing fu and charlatan fu as some claim, his best trick to date is getting a large group of people who supposedly don't like him to do tons of free advertising for him. There are three active threads devoted to SD on this board right now. One is nearly 100 pages long. Now that's what I call exposure! Thanks guys! :D If GM Sin is all about the Benjamins, why isn't he rich? I have spent time with GM Sin in an informal setting many times. He is far too genuine a human being to be the snake oil salesman so many are certain he is. I am not some delusional, uneducated hick with a case of hero worship. I am very aware of the issues the MA community has with SD. Some are valid, others aren't. In this age of information saturation I find it arrogant and rude to catagorize all SD practioners as MA illiterate sheeple being herded away from their cash by GM Sin. Anyone with a computer and or a library can research their art of choice. I've done it, and so have many other SD practioners. I found enough information to support either side of the debate, but nothing that absolutely proved or disproved anything. I do find it hard to believe that a system as well known as SD obviously is, could survive 40 years and be fraudulant. If SD were completely fake, I'm sure some historian would have figured it out long before now. Meanwhile all of the endless debate does make for some entertaining reading. :D Peace and happy training to all.

[Judge Pen]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

Yes, for example, and as far as I am aware, our Tai Pang system and our "Shaolin Bird" systems are unique to SD and have their own principles, footwork and theory of application.

[Invisible-fist]

OK, I can understand that you don't like SD, but I cannot understand why anybody would say that it is not CMA. It is clearly CMA. It uses CMA movements, CMA weapons, etc.

The infamous "tiger crane" video is clearly Hung Gar. Its badly performed, but it looks like Hung to me. (And I'm a Hung player)

What about the "Dragon" and "Monkey" forms...clearly Chinese.

I suspect the reason is because of the costume and the terminology, which is absurd. In China they train in tracksuits, fer chrissake.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Contrary to popluar belief, BentMonk. Controversy about history isn't the kind of press a school needs. The only type of notoriety worth having is that of being a bully school...at least then you can still whoop ass...The last thing a person reading all this is gonna think is, "Wow! The majority bash it, bring up reasonable arguements towards it, and most of the practioners are ignorant to proper fighting. I'M GONNA JOIN TODAY!!!"

'Tis a strange, strange world Shoalin-Do'ers live in...

[Ming Shan]

Jebus H. Christ. I can't believe this nonsense is still going on. I mean, come on, anybody who hasn't had a lobotomy can clearly see that Shaolin-Do is kempo-karate with a few "exotic" Chinese tidbits, marketed as CMA to American sheeple. It is not. This really isn't a matter of debate. The CMA community has some cohesion and most serious practitioners know who is who or what is what. Shaolin-Do has neither a lineage, nor is it recognized syste, neither in its elements, nor in its entirety.

Furthermore, most systems of CMA don't have hundreds upon hundreds of forms. Most classical systems have somewhere between 3 to 15 fist forms (sometimes more), not including single movements and weapons. The only system I can think of that has a bazillion forms is Choy-Li-Fut. It is an exception. But a quick glance at Shaolin-Do's syllabus...look at it this way, a serious student should be able to learn all the info a teacher has to offer. It should not take a lifetime to learn a whole system, between 10 to 30 years should be sufficient. Mastery is a lifetime venture...learning a system and its forms is not...

So to summarize, a glance at SD shows that it is kempo-karate with some odd names and forms, and not all the loyalty in the world will make it CMA.

Look at old photographs of CMA practitioners, and modern videos. SD does not resemble any CMA. Hsing-Yi, Bagua, TaiJi, Baji, Lama, Tang-Lang, Bei Shaolin, Sil-Lum, Hung-gar, etc, etc....

[Ou Ji]

Kenpo is Chuan Fa, Chinese Boxing. Kenpo is Chinese kung fu adopted into Japan. To say that Shaolin Do is not CMA because it's Kenpo makes no sense at all. If it really is Kenpo then that would prove it's CMA.

What is Northern Mantis a couple of generations after arriving in the US? Is it CMA? Is it still CMA if you add a few Judo throws you learned along the way?

Is Wing Chun CMA even though the WC in the US is way different than the WC in China? What is it in Indonesia?

When does it become something else?

And what CMA styles are NOT in SD?

And if SD gets into a fight in the woods would you hear it scream?

[kwaichang]

Well hail hail the gangs all here but nothing and everything is being said. Nothing is proven we are arguing and no one is winning. If an old man learned SD and went into the woods and added some "CMA" looking steps and said he was a Master would it be accepted as such " PROBABLY" well I have seen alot of KUng Fu and JMA and BMA and GMA and Boxing etc etc etc. so get over it you cant prove or disprove any thing stop wasting time what is the big deal anyway. I have always wanted to learn real Kung Fu like Kwai Chang Caine on TV was supposed to have but master PO does not exist does he ? that is when I started I wanted and still want to learn and am you are all just spitting into the wind I have been in SD for 14 yrs what ever it is it is good so go to where ever you go and train in the end the truth will be known and you wont be around to see it, KC

[Jarhead101]

Well, hey, at least the certificates are somewhat cool, with the dragons and all. Except the part that says: Sin The's KARATE Club :D

IN SD's defense, I hear Sin The's brother is actually a bad a$$ even compared to his brother, and they teach the same forms (for the most part anyway) so there would have to be some type of collaboration between the two to "make up" their forms - and I hear they don't speak much anymore. To me it means they both learned the ones they teach from a single source - maybe.

I was speaking to a long-time practitioner of the style, and he told me the double-dagger kata that is being taught in SD is incorrect all the way around, and that Sin made it up. Yes, ST's brother was the "bird Master" between the two, and there is a dagger form of the same name, but Sin never learned ANY of the bird material, he got it from his brother and apparently screwed it up once they broke apart. On that note his brother is teaching ALL the bird curriculum out, so it will not die when he does.

Oh, well. Who knows.

And yeah JP, it's me, YYD ;)

[Jarhead101]

Before anyone asks, the "bird material" is as follows:

TAI PENG (BIRD)
Tai Peng Sin Kune/ Big Bird Opens Its Wings
Tai Peng Fan Che/ Big Bird Flips Its Wings
Tai Peng Chan Se/ Big Bird Spreads Its Wings
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Chan Se
Tai Peng Chein Wo/ Big Bird Builds Its Nest
Tai Peng Se Wo/ Big Bird Watches Its Nest
Tai Peng Pao Wo/ Big Bird Defends/Protects Its Nest
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Pao Wo
Tai Peng Sao/ Yin Big Bird Sweeps the Clouds
Tai Peng Khe Yin/ Big Bird Cuts the Clouds
Tai Peng Wu Yin/ Big Bird Dances On the Clouds
Tai Peng Po Yin/ Big Bird Strikes Through the Clouds
Tai Peng Chuen He (Hur)/ Big Bird Aims/Stalks
Tai Peng Luo Tien/ Big Bird Desends/Drops From the Sky
Tai Peng Chua Chien/ Big Bird Claw
Tai Peng Kung/ Big Bird Attacks
Tai Peng Foo/ Big Bird Trap
Tai Peng Se/ Big Bird Vision
Tai Peng Ching/ Big Bird Spirit
Tai Peng Chien/ Big Bird Form

Most of this is NOT taught in SD, it's taught in The's brother's school.

And here's some more katas from the school:

THROWING DAGGERS
San Tien Tao/ Lightning Knife/Dagger
Nan Sing Tao/ Southern Star Knife
Pei Sing Tao/ Northern Star Knife
(Above-3 kata set) Swang Sing Tao Pair of Star Daggers
Yen Tao (Yen Ch� Fei Tao Tao)/ The SwallowÕs Path/Flight Dagger Form
Yen Luo Tao (Yen Ch� Luo Tien Tao)/ The Swallow Drops from the Sky
Yen Che Tao/ The Swallow Dagger
(Above-3 kata set) Yen Che Tao The Swallow Daggers
San Tao
Chiu Loong Tao/ Nine Faces Dragon Dagger
Tu (Du) Tao/ Poison Dagger
Swang Yen Tao (1pr) Pair of Swallow Daggers
Se Mien Tao (2 pr) Four Faces Swallow Dagger
San Tue Tao/San Tue Fei Tao (3pr) Three Pair Throwing Daggers
Pa Fang Tao (4pr) Eight Direction Daggers
Se Fu Tao (5pr) Trap of the Ten Daggers
Ie Ta Fei Tao (6pr) 12 Flying Daggers
Ying/Yang Chi Sing Tao (7pr) Seven Star Double Dagger
Ie Chien Yen Che Tao (8pr) Flock/Group Swallow Daggers
Fei Tao (9 pr) Throwing Daggers

DRUNKEN FORMS
Fung Wang Chuey Han Chien/ The Mad Drunk
Chuey Tao/ Drunken Broadsword/Knife
Chuey Kuen/ Drunken Bo
Chuey Chien/ Drunken Sword (double-edge)
Chuey Kai/ Drunken Beggar
Chuey Ho/ Drunken Monkey
Chuey Ku� Chuey Yin/ Drunken Ghost Chases The Shadow
Fung Wang Chuey Han Chien Tue Ta/ The Mad Drunk/ 3-Man Set
Chuey Hur Song Fa Chien/ Drunken Monk
Chuey Puo Tse (Che)/ Crippled Drunk

INTERNAL
San Njie Chien/ Three Unity "Iron Man" Form
Tie Ku Chang/ Iron Bone Palm
Ye Fei She Pa Tuan/ Ye Fei's 18 Continuous Positions
Yang Tai Chi Chaun/ Yang's Grand Ultimate Fist Form
Lee Chia Tai Chi Chuan/ Lee Family Grand Ultimate Fist Form
Pa Kua Chang/ 8 Direction Hexagonal Palm
Ie Ching Ching/ The Changing of the Muscle and Bone
Ching Kong Sow/ Golden Steel Fist
Tai Chi Chien/ Tai Chi Sword
Da Mo's (Bohidharma) Ie Ching

MISCELLANEOUS EMPTY HAND FORMS
Meng Sing SIng Chien/ Mad Gorilla Form
Pai Ho Pai Fu/ White Monkey
Wu Chin Sie/ Five Animal Linkage
Chie Chien/ Connecting Fist
Lian Wu Chang/ Five Direction Palm

Hehe, me being a "knife" guy I freely admit I'd love to see all the dagger forms. Anyway, enjoy!

[Scott R. Brown]

I will add a few more comments:

First to Golden Tiger,

You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything, yet you follow me around trying to find continuous ways to insult me. GROW UP!! I saw you just had a b-day why not start acting your age. If my posts are too long for you stop reading them and then you won’t have to suffer! Or better yet continue to read them, give yourself and aneurysm and put us ALL out of our misery! ;)

Personally, I have nothing against SD. I don’t care if the Super Galactic Grand Master made up his forms or not. He may start his own style if he wants. Clearly he has those that enjoy his style and want to learn his many forms regardless or how good or crappy they are. It is not unusual for a style to manufacture its lineage. It has been going on from the beginning of MA! A manufactured lineage is merely for the purposes of marketing however, and therefore creates the appearance of a lack of integrity. All MA were made up by someone and to think only the ancients have a right to make up something is foolishness! SD is here and many enjoy it and that is good enough for me!

In regards to Sin The:

I am not impressed with his demeanor or this humility as I have never met him so how much of a charlatan or saint he is, is beyond my knowledge. He may be a nice guy! However, I do have experience with another MA Super Galactic Grand Master that many thought was humble, thoughtful, insightful, old, wise, all-knowing, etc. and some still do! As I aged and learned more REAL MA the inaccuracies of his teachings and the simple-ness of them became very evident. His manipulation of this FLOCK became glaringly clear! So I am naturally skeptical of grandiose claims whether they come from a seemingly humble old man or a young brash big mouth! As they say appearances may be deceiving!

As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!

My complaint is about how the seminars are marketed (the sensationalist terminology) and how one must conveniently attend 2 previous seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist. If I wanted my school to learn it I would send one student to all 4 seminars and then just learn the Meteor Fist when my student got to it. In my opinion there is no reasonable reason to expect someone to attend 2 seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist and the fact it may or may not be a traditional method of teaching and learning is merely rationalization.

It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

[Invisible-fist]

Save for that there is NOTHING in Shaolin Do that looks like kempo.

Show me where SD does Dance of Death, or Five Swords of China, or even uses Kempo terminology like "doing it in the air" or "street sparring".

SD is clearly CMA, look at the dragon form, or the 8 drunken immortals, or the tiger crane. look at their weapons.

I have no problem if you want to say that SD is bad CMA, or a lousy lineage, or has suspicious history. Just don't tell me that it aint CMA.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Objective: Don't die! Avoid serious injury!

Action: Train in some set or system that improves the chances of meeting the objective.. i.e.: Martial Arts

Perspective: Individual points of view regarding personal likes and dislikes regarding various subjects like Martial Arts...

Personal Note: If the training works for the individual, regardless of its lineage or verifiable history, then the "perspective" has no bearing on the "action" or the "objective"..

If an SD fighter kicks my butt, i respect his skills.. regardless of where those skills originate.. if the skills are developed from made-up training systems AND they work.. great!!! that's how Kung Fu originated, somebody made it up...

So, Don't Die!!! Avoid serious injury!!! wear neat Chinese stuff, and call it Kung Fu.. that's how it all started...

Be well...

[Golden Tiger]

This is a paradigm issue... one that has no victory conditions...

You are wise beyond your years. We like it, the rest don't. This particular paradigm will never change.


Well, hey, at least the certificates are somewhat cool, with the dragons and all. Except the part that says: Sin The's KARATE Club

They are pretty cool. Have you seen the really big ones? Listing all the material and such? The ones I have are REALLY cool.


IN SD's defense, I hear Sin The's brother is actually a bad a$$

He used to be, thats for sure. Some of us ran into him not to long ago and he didn't look that well. Didn't he injure his back or something? But back when he was at the SC, yep, he was a tough mo fo.


double-dagger kata that is being taught in SD is incorrect all the way around, and that Sin made it up

If he made it up, how could he be teaching it wrong? Plus, the two dbl dagger forms that are taught now are not the ones M. Hiang teaches. The throwing dagger one you are refering to isn't taught on our side anymore.


Sin never learned ANY of the bird material, he got it from his brother and apparently screwed it up once they broke apart.

M. Hiang got the rest of the Tai Peng system when he went back to Indo. in the mid 80's along with the drunk monkey stuff. He only taught the first one out befor the split and was set to teach the other stuff but didn't for some mysterious reason. (my name was on the sign up sheet). We only do the first one anyway (most of us that is ;) ) and it is exactly like M. Hiang taught it. Not sure what is screwed up about it.


You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything

Apparently you do...


Personally, I have nothing against SD.

And yet you continue to make ad hominem attacks against something you have absolutely no knowledge of.


In regards to Sin The:

See above....:rolleyes:


My complaint is about how the seminars are marketed (the sensationalist terminology) and how one must conveniently attend 2 previous seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist.

To start with, the seminar is not being "marketed". That is the way that all things used to be taught by M. Sin. You would spend 6 months and sometimes longer conditioning yourself, gaining flexibility, etc. to be able to physically do the form. Since he only teaches in seminar form now, I would assume that the things taught in the first two are needed to be proficient on the latter two.

And for the demographic that the "marketing" is being geared toward, most would be there anyway. He has been doing these seminars for over ten years and in the Ky one alone, there is always 150 plus students that show up. If he had only told of the first two, I imagine the same number would be there.


If I wanted my school to learn it I would send one student to all 4 seminars and then just learn the Meteor Fist when my student got to it.

I bet you pirate mp3's too...


In my opinion there is no reasonable reason to expect someone to attend 2 seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist and the fact it may or may not be a traditional method of teaching and learning is merely rationalization.


Your a nurse correct? Was there a resonable reason for each and everyone of the classes you had to take to become a nurse? Couldn't most of the things that you do daily be taught to someone much quicker rather than 4 years of school plus all those continuing education classes? I assume you had to take chemisty...when was the lasttime you did an actual titration to determine the levels of blood gas or the pH of urine. You took biology also I would think. When was the last time it was necessary to disect a fetal pig in your normal routine? So see, I think 99% of what you went to school for was a waste of time. Dump the overpaid nurses and grab a few people off the street, teach them how to read a digital readout and there you go.


By the way, this passes the downtime during the day so I will probably be around for a while. Plus i kinda think a few here are begining to like me...:D

[Jarhead101]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger]

If he made it up, how could he be teaching it wrong? Plus, the two dbl dagger forms that are taught now are not the ones M. Hiang teaches. The throwing dagger one you are refering to isn't taught on our side anymore.

What I'm referring to is "Swallow Swoops Down from Heaven", it is still in the curriculum (I just learned it before I left) and it's still in Hiang's curriculum.

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was one of the few forms I enjoyed in SD.

[SimonM]

I bet you pirate mp3's too...


I pirate MP3 files all the time. I have hundreds of songs on MP3 on my computer. Here in China, where the internet is my only source of western music that isn't boy bands this is actually a survival mechanism.

[Judge Pen]

As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!



I think that is something common that you see in SD and other styles. "My dad can beat up your dad" type mentality bleeds through into the marketing of a style. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but as GT and I have pointed out, most people will attend these seminars no matter what was being offered. In fact making the last two seminar's contingent upon attending all the previous seminars will probably hinder attendance (and the bottom line that seems to offend most here) more than help it.




It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

I doubt that con-men in martial arts is a modern phenomenon.

[Golden Tiger]

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was one of the few forms I enjoyed in SD.

Oop's, misunderstood the original post I guess. Hmmm...wonder how a VERY high ranking source would know how its taught on our side....:D Well, at least that tell me they still care about us.

[Judge Pen]

On Sin and Hiang:

My teacher says that Hiang was a bad mo fo, but he also says that Hiang told his class that he wouldn't take the 20 top fighters in our system, and himself, and take on Master Sin.

I would take with a grain of salt anything that is said about the other side now given the bad history and rivalry betweene the two camps. It's a shame too since Hiang is the best link to the source of our material and system outside of GMS.

[godzillakungfu]

Oop's, misunderstood the original post I guess. Hmmm...wonder how a VERY high ranking source would know how its taught on our side....:D Well, at least that tell me they still care about us.

I can answer this it was changed on the West side. Of course people will say this is hearsay. There are marked difference between East/West Shaolin-Do. The explanations (West only) are fairly inventive.

[Judge Pen]

Other things aside, differences between schools will always be present. Teachers change the material, consciously or unconscioulsy, to suit their preference and ability. So do the students as much as their teacher will let them get away with it.

[godzillakungfu]

Save for that there is NOTHING in Shaolin Do that looks like kempo.

Show me where SD does Dance of Death, or Five Swords of China, or even uses Kempo terminology like "doing it in the air" or "street sparring".

SD is clearly CMA, look at the dragon form, or the 8 drunken immortals, or the tiger crane. look at their weapons.

I have no problem if you want to say that SD is bad CMA, or a lousy lineage, or has suspicious history. Just don't tell me that it aint CMA.

I took Ken(m)po there are many similarities in some of the forms. There are also things that are completely different. Personally I think it is an amalgam some good some bad. The politics and the alleged marketing (I agree with GT on this point) are what make it so horrible. I've seen way worse systems and I've seen better systems (IMO).

The 900+/most comprehensive form crap needs to go. Yet, if you read the flyer or the website, all the words are directed at students not the general public. To me this wasn't marketed the way Scott Brown is using the word.

[themeecer]

What I'm referring to is "Swallow Swoops Down from Heaven", it is still in the curriculum (I just learned it before I left) and it's still in Hiang's curriculum.

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.


I have had the opportunity to see the form you are talking about from Master Hiang's students. It is exactly the way I was taught and continue to teach.

And yes Master Hiang was a bad 'mo fo.' So is/was GMS. Only difference was that GMS had the ability to mask and control his anger better. And I am not putting down Master Hiang, because even though the two camps are no longer together, I still respect him as a carrier of our art and no matter what, is still part of my lineage. Heck, my yellow belt certificate has his signature on it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Golden Tiger,

Always a pleasure to teach you a little bit more about proper reasoning.

Me: You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything.

You:

Apparently you do..

Me:

Don’t confuse responding with caring. Your apparent pathological and incessant need to continually ridicule me requires response. If one allows a bully free play he feels comfortable continuing to bully. If one makes it uncomfortable for him to bully “some” bullies eventually get the hint and stop their abusive behavior. Others don’t have the mental capacity to catch on. While some with lesser patience will eventually just clean the bullys' clock, those with maturity will merely ignore them. When I decide my responses are no longer productive I will ignore your childishness!
__________________________________________________ ______
Me:

Personally, I have nothing against SD.

You:

And yet you continue to make ad hominem attacks against something you have absolutely no knowledge of.

Me:

I don’t think you understand what an ad hominem attack is. It is what you repeatedly do to me. That is attack me personally using ridicule instead of responding to the argument in question. If you were properly trained in reasoning it would be clear to you that I supply reasoned explanations for most or all of my opinions. Since you have inadequate ability to supply reasoned responses you resort to insults.

Name my ad hominem attack(s) please (If you can!) and I will be happy to supply a reasoned response as to my why I used it! I commonly save my ad hominem attacks for fools like you!
__________________________________________________ ___________
You:

To start with, the seminar is not being "marketed". That is the way that all things used to be taught by M. Sin. You would spend 6 months and sometimes longer conditioning yourself, gaining flexibility, etc. to be able to physically do the form. Since he only teaches in seminar form now, I would assume that the things taught in the first two are needed to be proficient on the latter two.

Me:

If you are not in shape to begin with you aren’t training very seriously and it seems would not deserve to learn such a rare form! If the form is available to all who attend white belts to black belts then it hardly seems like a form that would require much foundation. Since beginners hardly have any foundation of understanding at all! It isn’t like one must learn to perform a back somersault prior to being able to perform the form. It is an internal form, and although considered aggressive it could hardly be more difficult than a hard form! While some have provided reasons for requiring attendance at two previous seminars, none of them are presently reasonable.
__________________________________________________ ________
You:

And for the demographic that the "marketing" is being geared toward, most would be there anyway. He has been doing these seminars for over ten years and in the Ky one alone, there is always 150 plus students that show up. If he had only told of the first two, I imagine the same number would be there.

Me:

If you had carefully read any of my previous posts (I understand they may be too lengthy for your attention span) you would have read:

“If a student is truly a participant of the Shaolin-Do they would not need such commercial manipulations to attract them to a seminar. All it would take is a simple announcement that the master is holding a rare seminar to teach the Meteor Fist!! Sensationalism is designed to attract more participants for the purpose of making money. A respectable Master does not need to resort to such antics. His quiet actions speak for him!”

You have just confirmed my statement that it is not necessary. Thank you for confirming my point!

Later I qualified it with:

“As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!”

This was intended to explain that I understand that Sin is most likely not directly responsible for the sensationalism found in the original e-mail!
__________________________________________________ __________
You:

I bet you pirate mp3's too...

Me:

Resorting to ad hominem attacks through ridicule once again I see. A bit hypocritical don’t you think?
__________________________________________________ __________
You:

Your a nurse correct? Was there a resonable reason for each and everyone of the classes you had to take to become a nurse? Couldn't most of the things that you do daily be taught to someone much quicker rather than 4 years of school plus all those continuing education classes? I assume you had to take chemisty...when was the lasttime you did an actual titration to determine the levels of blood gas or the pH of urine. You took biology also I would think. When was the last time it was necessary to disect a fetal pig in your normal routine? So see, I think 99% of what you went to school for was a waste of time.

Me:

Nursing is not MA. They cannot be compared even closely. This form is being taught to all comers. White belts to Black belts. Where are all these foundational classes the White belts should have attended prior to learning the form? If a white belt can learn it, a Black certainly doesn’t require two foundational seminars. If he does he is clearly not very well trained.

It would be more accurate to compare this circumstance to dance. This requirement is like insisting a dancer perform in the Nutcracker before he is allowed to perform in Swan Lake! If you are a professional dancer you should have the ability to perform either!
__________________________________________________ _______________
You:

Dump the overpaid nurses and grab a few people off the street, teach them how to read a digital readout and there you go.

Me:

You mean like army corp men. I agree. No one better trained that I have ever seen!

P.S. Give me a chance to respond to some of these other ones before you try to rip me a new one again!! You are not very good at it, but at least you tried to formulate proper arguments this time. I give you one star! * Now all you need to do is drop the ridicule and I might grow to respect you a bit regardless of whether I agree with you!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Judge Pen



I doubt that con-men in martial arts is a modern phenomenon.

I dont think you read my comments well enough I did qualify it in my original statement! I bolded the relevant portion for you:

Me:

It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

Ok Golden Tiger!! Go For it!!:D

[Golden Tiger]

Me a bully???:eek: lol that the best one yet.:D

[chud]

I must say this thread is quite interesting. I had no idea that Master Sin had a brother named Hiang, and that Hiang specialized in the Bird (Tai Peng) style. I googled and found his site: http://www.centralshaolin.com/

[chud]

I have been googling on Master Hiang (Sin's brother) and I must say he appears to be the real deal. Apparently brother Sin Kwang The studied under their grandfather, while Hiang Kwang The studied under four masters with the guidance of the grandfather. This would explain why Hiang seems to teach some material that Sin does not. Also, Hiang is very open about the fact that his style took a lot from Indonesian/Japanese influences, he doesn't try to hide that at all.

[MonkeySlap Too]

This quote seemed interesting to me:
"Modern Day Chung Yen Martial Arts
Current Chung Yen Shaolin Grandmaster, Hiang Kwang Thè, (1948- ) was born in Bandung, Indonesia and began his martial arts training at age 8. Master Thè was taught by several masters who studied at the Shaolin Temples in China including his maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming.

Grandmaster Ie trained Master Thè in several internal systems, awarding him with special recognition medallions for his internal training, including the name "Liu Fo Su" or "6th Sense Warrior." From Master Liu Su Peng, Master Thè learned the entire 18 form Tai Peng or "Great Bird" fighting system including earning special medallions for developing the Bird system forms into actual fighting applications."

Sooo... the Tai Peng style was not originally for fighting?

[godzillakungfu]

I have been googling on Master Hiang (Sin's brother) and I must say he appears to be the real deal. Apparently brother Sin Kwang The studied under their grandfather, while Hiang Kwang The studied under four masters with the guidance of the grandfather. This would explain why Hiang seems to teach some material that Sin does not. Also, Hiang is very open about the fact that his style took a lot from Indonesian/Japanese influences, he doesn't try to hide that at all.


See if the way back machine has his old website. Hiang has changed his website to fit his needs. On his very first website the history was almost exactly the same as GMS. The differnce being he was awarded the title of Grand Master not Sin. Also, GMS was never mentioned on his old website as Hiang isn't on Sin's websites.

[Jarhead101]

This quote seemed interesting to me:
"Modern Day Chung Yen Martial Arts
Current Chung Yen Shaolin Grandmaster, Hiang Kwang Thè, (1948- ) was born in Bandung, Indonesia and began his martial arts training at age 8. Master Thè was taught by several masters who studied at the Shaolin Temples in China including his maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming.

Grandmaster Ie trained Master Thè in several internal systems, awarding him with special recognition medallions for his internal training, including the name "Liu Fo Su" or "6th Sense Warrior." From Master Liu Su Peng, Master Thè learned the entire 18 form Tai Peng or "Great Bird" fighting system including earning special medallions for developing the Bird system forms into actual fighting applications."

Sooo... the Tai Peng style was not originally for fighting?

Well, the bird forms were actually my favorite out of everything I learned/saw. Very unique and the fighting applications were easy to see as well. It's cool that Hiang is teaching them all out.

OK, yes there's a BIG uproar over Sin The teaching out Meteor Fist, but I bet that even JP would show up to learn the Golden Snake :D This is supposed to be Sin The's specialty, but of course it's not being taught out :confused:

[hitman142002]

I am your basic "karate-man" on these forums to do like Bruce said- absorb what is useful. With this thread, I think I may have found out why Bruce Lee decided to completely skip out on all the "traditional" Chinese styles. I just read through 8 pages of argument, speculation, history, insult and awe...all concerning a single form.
If you would like an "outsider's" opinion- and even if you wouldn't- this all seems a little far-fetched to me. However, if this teacher is all he is supposed to be, why not take it at face value and learn what you do not currently know? If you learn even a single technique, or variation of a technique, that is useful and furthers your training, isn't it worth it? What level of imperfection are you willing to settle for?
The problem I have is that this super secret form exists at all. If I were a senior student, I think I would almost be insulted that I was not being taught everything I should know, or COULD know. Especially if it was something that a white belt could learn and be trusted with having that knowledge.
Finally, is it common practice to be shown a form only once before you must rely on your memory to repeat it until you KNOW the form? How often do you practice incorrectly before you are shown that you have been screwing up for a year??
You may commence to berating me now...

[SimonM]

The problem I have is that this super secret form exists at all. If I were a senior student, I think I would almost be insulted that I was not being taught everything I should know, or COULD know. Especially if it was something that a white belt could learn and be trusted with having that knowledge.


Quite a few styles do not have "secret" forms.



Finally, is it common practice to be shown a form only once before you must rely on your memory to repeat it until you KNOW the form? How often do you practice incorrectly before you are shown that you have been screwing up for a year??
You may commence to berating me now...

No need to fear berating over asking questions. No it is not common practice. However as you have gathered there is a lot of controversy surrounding the legitimacy of SD.

[Scott R. Brown]

Me a bully???:eek: lol that the best one yet.:D

It was an example of how to handle idiots, fools, bullies, harrassers, argumentative types, etc. As usual you missed the point!

[Golden Tiger]

It was an example of how to handle idiots, fools, bullies, harrassers, argumentative types, etc. As usual you missed the point!

If I (and apparently others since you seem to have to explain a lot post-post) missed the implied meaning, perhaps you are having trouble getting the point across to the simple minds on here.

[Golden Tiger]

Apparently brother Sin Kwang The studied under their grandfather

Only if he was adopted be him in the mid 80's...many years after Ie died. For as long as I can remember (circa 1976) there was never a reference made to Ie as being the grandfather by either of them.


Sooo... the Tai Peng style was not originally for fighting?

If you ask me, all its good for is hurting your legs and blowing knees....but that just my opinion ;)



OK, yes there's a BIG uproar over Sin The teaching out Meteor Fist, but I bet that even JP would show up to learn the Golden Snake This is supposed to be Sin The's specialty, but of course it's not being taught out

Yet......

I am still amazed that Meteor Fist is causing this much hoopla on here. The general concensus here is that SD and all its parts suck so why should anyone other than the SD care? To you all its just more crap to add to our outhouse. Don't worry, when I learn it, I promise not to unleash its fury on any of you....well one perhaps.

[Judge Pen]

jarhead, if I remember a previous post, you also liked the yellow sash tiger form (Fei Hu) and still practiced it after leaving SD.

Tai Pang and fighting: I'm not sure what that comment on Hiang's site means (and I'm not in his camp to where I can ask him). My guess is that since Hinag specialzed in that system, he broke down the system to pull out several applications that were not taught. That's not uncommon. Master Nance has broken down all the short form and pulled out applications that are "there" but not as apparant. He teaches a seminar on his "Application Theory" that is pretty good.

Back to Tai Pang, it's not one of my favorite either, but it is a very unique and complete system. SD is full of unique systems in addition to the material that they teach that is well known by others.

Short form: similar to Tam Tui in theory, application and purpose. I've been told that it's even more similar to 108 Lo Han style; however, I've never had the opportuntiy to compare short form to 108 Lo Han so I can't really comment.

Fei Hu: A tiger form that is unique to SD as far as I can tell.

Tai Pang--already discussed;

Lo Han Chien (ch'uan): A mystery form in some respects. It carries the name Lo Han, but has some seven star/moneky footwork and is often described within the system as a sister form to mantis. GT may be able to elaborate on the history of this form.

SanNjie: An internal form that shares the principles of Oikinawan SanChien which reportedly came for fujian provicen anyway.

"Shaolin Birds" A southern system (at least in my opinion on the footwork and applications. Very adaptable to fighting. Unique foorwork, theory, and principles. Not my favorite forms, but much of what I have adopted in my own fighting style have come from these forms.

China Hand forms: I've seen some forms that a very similar from other sources, but not these excat forms. They are "mini-longfist" forms that are seen as sister forms to the golden tiger system (two of the golden tiger forms have been taught out and they both have a northern feel to them as well).

Anyway, most of the material under black is vbery unique to SD.

[Scott R. Brown]

If I (and apparently others since you seem to have to explain a lot post-post) missed the implied meaning, perhaps you are having trouble getting the point across to the simple minds on here.

Hi Golden Tiger,

Most likely it is just you!

When I am succinct you cannot understand the point. When I explain the thought in detail you cannot understand the point! It is time to consider the problem most likely lies with you!

The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. Congratulations on having the courage to admit to yourself and everyone else your condition. I encourage you to seek professional help to resolve this issue! If I may be of any help to you please feel free to ask!!:)

[themeecer]

GT .. you hit the nail on the head there. Some people here are obsessed with Shaolin-do. I am in the system and we have detractors on here that get info before I do. You all must be constantly scanning the web for SD related material. It is great to have groupies.

And yes .. Tai Peng can be murder on the old body. I was practicing this on a cobblestone courtyard when I was at UK, in a light rain. Actually I was unwisely "showing off" to a guy whose teacher had left our system, gave it a new name, and continued teaching. His looked horrible ... I could hardly recognize the form. So I stand up there .. bow ... do that first jump .. and attempt to land in a bird stance. I use the word attempt because that isn't exactly what happened. My right leg went north and my left leg went south. I'm not exactly sure what I did to my glutes but they still cause me problems to this day.

And by durn .. I am excited to learn Liu Hsing. I have heard about it for 22 years and now I am finally going to learn it. If that upsets you then I'm sorry.

[Golden Tiger]

Hi Golden Tiger,

I encourage you to seek professional help to resolve this issue! If I may be of any help to you please feel free to ask!!:)

I would ask you for help Scotty, but your just a nurse. I think I need a professional.

[Brad]

My first "kungfu" teacher had a Golden Tiger form... I wonder if he stole it from Shaolin-Do? He did go to Kentucky every year :eek:

[Radhnoti]

chud - "I have been googling on Master Hiang (Sin's brother) and I must say he appears to be the real deal."

Well, you might be interested to hear that the brothers taught together for many years. Maybe a decade?

Brad - "My first "kungfu" teacher had a Golden Tiger form... I wonder if he stole it from Shaolin-Do?"

It's surprising how often (in KY anyway) people take shaolin-do forms and don't admit that's where they got it. I've heard of an aikido guy who took the shaolin-do basic (first) staff form and claimed he got it from an ancient master on a trip to China researching the roots of his art! Not a low-key teacher around these parts either...he teaches a lot of law enforcement personnel.

GT - "For as long as I can remember (circa 1976) there was never a reference made to Ie as being the grandfather by either of them. "

I've seen a lot of evidence (most second-hand...as I'm Mr. Nobody in Nowhere, KY) that seems to indicate GM Ie IS the The' brothers maternal grandfather. I don't think it hurts GM Sin's credibility (though it does hurt the "I had to work so hard to be accepted" stories), in fact I think it bolsters it. Chinese teachers are famous for only passing the heart of their system to family. I've even heard (again, like everything I hear second-hand) that when pressed about who's going to be the next SD GM, GM Sin says, "My grandson." Again, GT is a lot closer to the source than me...but I don't see any great benefit for M. Hiang lying, and they've released documents and translations that are pretty compelling on this issue.

[Judge Pen]

My first "kungfu" teacher had a Golden Tiger form... I wonder if he stole it from Shaolin-Do? He did go to Kentucky every year :eek:

I'll show you my Golden Tiger Form if you show me yours. :D Serioulsy, the Golden Tiger Form has a long-fist feel to it, but I can assure you it did not come from Ohio. It was learned in Indonesia fairly recently (well 12-15 years ago).

[themeecer]

I'll show you my Golden Tiger Form if you show me yours. :D Serioulsy, the Golden Tiger Form has a long-fist feel to it, but I can assure you it did not come from Ohio. It was learned in Indonesia fairly recently (well 12-15 years ago).
Make that at least 20 years ago. Because that is when I learned it.

[Judge Pen]

Make that at least 20 years ago. Because that is when I learned it.
Has it been that long ago? PM me. We're talking about the non-rank advacment Golden tiger, correct? Not Chang Kang Fu Hu Chien?

[Golden Tiger]

Has it been that long ago? PM me. We're talking about the non-rank advacment Golden tiger, correct? Not Chang Kang Fu Hu Chien?

You are correct JP. Chang Hu Chien* came back while they visited Bandung.

[themeecer]

Oh my bad .. I was talking about Chang Kang Fu Hu Chien. I have never heard about this newer one.

[Golden Tiger]

GT - "For as long as I can remember (circa 1976) there was never a reference made to Ie as being the grandfather by either of them. "

I've seen a lot of evidence (most second-hand...as I'm Mr. Nobody in Nowhere, KY) that seems to indicate GM Ie IS the The' brothers maternal grandfather. I don't think it hurts GM Sin's credibility (though it does hurt the "I had to work so hard to be accepted" stories), in fact I think it bolsters it. Chinese teachers are famous for only passing the heart of their system to family. I've even heard (again, like everything I hear second-hand) that when pressed about who's going to be the next SD GM, GM Sin says, "My grandson." Again, GT is a lot closer to the source than me...but I don't see any great benefit for M. Hiang lying, and they've released documents and translations that are pretty compelling on this issue.

Care to share all this evidence or perhaps the source? Or perhaps provide as to where these released documents or translations are? As I have said, being there, both in classes and socially, I nor any other old timer on our side heard of Ie as the grandfather (and we DO talk about that stuff). Master Sin's certificate makes no reference to it. His neice, Sang's daughter, never made any reference to it. All those years that M. Hiang told the stories and gave the history, he never mentioned it. It was only after they split that this incredible claim popped up on the website. In class one day, someone told Master Sin about the claim, he kinda grined, gave that "poor Hiang" look and went on. M. Hiang is a great teacher and fighter but for all this credit that everyone gives him, he was not the most credible person. I think its funny how just because he is now on the other side, everyone takes what he says as spot on. Trust me, if you knew the guy and knew his ways not that many years ago, you probably wouldn't rush to that side so quickly.

[Judge Pen]

I don't have an opinion on Ie's familial relationship with Hinag or GMS either way. The only difference this information would make, however, is legitimizing Hiang's camp to some degree. I agree with Rad that it wouldn't really affect GMS credibility if he was his grandfather, but Hiang's camp can profit from it because it explains why GMS was made the sucessor (and not Hiang). Because of that, those allegations should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Radhnoti]

Second hand stuff, mixed with first hand verifications. What I picked up online is supposedly a letter to GM Sin from GM Ie I assume it was released by M. Hiang's camp though. Here it is:

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’
I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master
Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!
Again by Grandfather in Spring, 1967"

I've had a first hand account/description of the "Jade Smoking Stick" in GM Sin's possession and I believe I was told that he said it was from GM Ie. Obviously, this doesn't necessarily mean the entirety of this letter is fact, but to my mind it makes it more likely.

Honestly, I'm not "jumping to Hiang's side" or anything. I think the claims that "Hiang is the TRUE grandmaster because he stuck around longer!" is pretty petty. GM Ie wanted GM Sin to be the 10th black, regardless of the whys. He should be the system's only leader.

GT, if you don't mind me asking, who do you think will end up being GM whenever GM Sin decides to retire? Have you heard that he intends it to be his grandson?

[Golden Tiger]

I have seen a similar letter but the translation was different. I would be interested in seeing the actual letter and letting an unbias person translate it. As I have already learned, some of the characters, when taken out of context, mean different things.

I have see the jade smoking stick and the drunk crutch (never heard it called that). And he used to talk about Ie and his uses for the jade pipe. What I do find strange is that he refers to Sin as Iron Palm master but on Sin's certificate, it talks all about how he was a champion fighter, mastered the Snake and Cyclone Leg and make no reference to iron palm. Interesting.


As for who will get the call? Hmmm, material wise I would have to say Leonard. He has had the most materail so if it was based on preservation, I would think him. I know at one time he wanted one of his sons to learn it and step in but I think one made it to 3rd before moving to other things.

In reality, when M. Sin is gone, there will probably be 3 major branches (4 if Grooms grows a set) and it will go on that way. Then again, I might get the nod...never know;)

[Judge Pen]

I have seen a similar letter but the translation was different. I would be interested in seeing the actual letter and letting an unbias person translate it. As I have already learned, some of the characters, when taken out of context, mean different things.


Yes and I wonder if Grandson could be transalated from the familial context or the student/teacher context. Sifu and sigung etc. have both familial and martial connotations, do they not?


What I do find strange is that he refers to Sin as Iron Palm master but on Sin's certificate, it talks all about how he was a champion fighter, mastered the Snake and Cyclone Leg and make no reference to iron palm. Interesting.


The way I read that was that Ie was signing the letter as the Iron Palm Master. Wasn't that one of Ie's nicknames?



As for who will get the call? Hmmm, material wise I would have to say Leonard. He has had the most materail so if it was based on preservation, I would think him. I know at one time he wanted one of his sons to learn it and step in but I think one made it to 3rd before moving to other things.

In reality, when M. Sin is gone, there will probably be 3 major branches (4 if Grooms grows a set) and it will go on that way. Then again, I might get the nod...never know;)

You are probably right although I'm hopeful that we can all get along. :D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sorry to butt into this discussion.
I've been doing research of CMA history and forms history for over 20 years
and I have written articles for Pacific Rim's (Wu Shu) Kung Fu (Qi Gong) magazine
and other journals for many years.
I have thousand of old tapes that I have collected of master showing forms.

There is a style called Meteor fist, it is from a temple outside of Shaolin.
It can use Leopard as a base, if Leopard is seen as internal.

Having said that, I have seen demonstrations of SD forms done in person and so on and I can only say that they seem to be material from Southern chinese styles that have been changed over time into something else. Some of the forms were karate like forms, but that is because they were essentially Goju forms in essense.

My guess is that the THE brothers learned something in Indonesia, something that was once based on CMA and over time changed into something else.

If their schools had never said they were teaching pure CMA, then people would have accepted what they taught as just what it was, an Indonesian martial art that had its roots in southern CMAs. Fine.

For some reason, when it comes to basic body mechanics, for the most part, I have't seen SD students truly understand body mechanics that are essential for doing forms (of any Style) correctly. Hence, they look lousy when people see them doing demonstrations.

But, if someone truly understands real efficient and effective martial arts body mechanics, then no mater what forms / kata they learn, they will be able to use it well. If someone learns silly fake forms, if they know how to use their bodies using real body mechanics that work UNIVERSALY, then they can make these silly fake forms work for self defense.
It's not the forms that matter, its the body mechanics underlying it all.

If some SD people are great fighters, etc. it is because of their own personal efforts and their own "rediscovery/insights" into body mechanics that work.
I don't think they are learning this from the schools, but from their own talent.

My verdict is that the The brother might be sincere in what they are trying to do and might really believe their own stories, but their schools aren't emphasising body mechanics first and foremost, there is too much effort instead in learning loads of forms that wind up becoming empty movements, dancing.
ANd, if they had never claimed to be anything other than Indonesian martial arts, then people would have left them alone, or at least only picked on them for having lousy body mechanics and empty forms.

[Judge Pen]

There is a style called Meteor fist, it is from a temple outside of Shaolin.
It can use Leopard as a base, if Leopard is seen as internal.


Can you tell me more about this style. I'd love to compare what I am going to learn with any other sources out there to see the simularities and difference.


For some reason, when it comes to basic body mechanics, for the most part, I have't seen SD students truly understand body mechanics that are essential for doing forms (of any Style) correctly. Hence, they look lousy when people see them doing demonstrations.

But, if someone truly understands real efficient and effective martial arts body mechanics, then no mater what forms / kata they learn, they will be able to use it well. If someone learns silly fake forms, if they know how to use their bodies using real body mechanics that work UNIVERSALY, then they can make these silly fake forms work for self defense.
It's not the forms that matter, its the body mechanics underlying it all.

If some SD people are great fighters, etc. it is because of their own personal efforts and their own "rediscovery/insights" into body mechanics that work.
I don't think they are learning this from the schools, but from their own talent.



I'll be the first to agree with much of this "criticism" but I think that a lot of it depends on the individual teachers as well. Some teachers are better than others and some emphasize the body-mechanics more than others. Its just like anything, you need to find a good teacher first and the style is secondary.

[Fei jiao]

What kind of master would let a student become a teacher if the student doesn't even understand body mechanics?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Unless he is meaning the Meteor Fist form that done in Henan Shaolin Long Fist style?

It is one form, it can be seen in the book "Shaolin De Quan" which is a 4 volume Shaolin encyclopedia published by the present Shaolin temple in Henan, volume 2 is all the forms that they still have records of.

By the way, not one form in SD curriculum is seen in the Shaolin De Quan.
Nor are they mentioned there in the text under lost forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What kind of master would let a student become a teacher if the student doesn't even understand body mechanics?

After judging tournaments for years and doing research for years and talking to old (anyone over 70 years old that I could find) masters, I have hardly seen many schools emphasis correct body mechanics, unfortunately.

I have seen people who intuitively understand that they need to do something to make things work and they unconsciously either rediscover the wheel or they have weird workarounds that somehow make things work.

If anyone is interested, I am willing to do a seminar on correct body mechanics
in NYC or NJ, pulling from 20 years of research.
Not matter what style, I can show someone what they are not doing in their forms to make them work effeciently and effectively.

Also, from doing 20 years of deep research, I can say that if all you have ever learned is that the moves in your forms are for kicking and punching, then you have learned nothing but beginner level info, sorry to say.

ALL moves in a form shuold be done as if you had both wrists grabbed by someone, when you do this you will see that what once was a sequence of punches and kicks in a form is ONE short and fast takedown manuever.

[Judge Pen]

Unless he is meaning the Meteor Fist form that done in Henan Shaolin Long Fist style?

It is one form, it can be seen in the book "Shaolin De Quan" which is a 4 volume Shaolin encyclopedia published by the present Shaolin temple in Henan, volume 2 is all the forms that they still have records of.

By the way, not one form in SD curriculum is seen in the Shaolin De Quan.
Nor are they mentioned there in the text under lost forms.

No I don't think so. Your first guess sounds closer to the mark.

Is this encyclopedia avaible for public review?

[Judge Pen]

ALL moves in a form shuold be done as if you had both wrists grabbed by someone, when you do this you will see that what once was a sequence of punches and kicks in a form is ONE short and fast takedown manuever.

I can say that many of the applciations that are taught in our forms start under a this premise.

[Golden Tiger]

By the way, not one form in SD curriculum is seen in the Shaolin De Quan.
Nor are they mentioned there in the text under lost forms.

Not exactly correct.....I think there are 3 forms in there.....:eek:

[Sal Canzonieri]

No I don't think so. Your first guess sounds closer to the mark.

Is this encyclopedia avaible for public review?


Yes, it is now out of print, but you can still find some copies, it is thousands of pages (in chinese). Every form still know, not lost over time, is shown in the books, empty hand, weapons, self defense, two person forms, etc, etc. History of Shaolin and all it's best known teachers and fighters are in VOlume 1.

Go here and see if you can still get one:
http://earthworks.com/shaolin/encyclopedia/

[Sal Canzonieri]

Not exactly correct.....I think there are 3 forms in there.....:eek:

oh, I don't know every single form that SD teaches, what forms are they?
thanks

[Golden Tiger]

oh, I don't know every single form that SD teaches, what forms are they?
thanks

21.Shao Lin monkey fist..................383
22.Shao Lin seven stars and mantis fist..........389
23.Shao Lin white ape and mantis fist...........395





JP...MAIL

[Judge Pen]

I would wager that all of our material under 1st black wouldn't be found in those encylopedias. Some of our upper-rank material may be, but even then we don't claim that the majority of our material came from Henan.

GT, thanks. Just breezing thorugh generally I recognize mroe than just three form names. but what's a name, right? You can call a mule a racehourse, but that doesn't make him Secretariat.

[Ou Ji]

Obviously you can't go by form names.

I follow these discussions but really don't follow all the SD history debates but I thought the claim was that the hairy face monk (what's his name again?) was the source of all the forms. That letter seems to suggest that Ie Chang Ming travelled around collecting up all the material.

So now I'm really confused.

[chud]

There is a style called Meteor fist, it is from a temple outside of Shaolin.
It can use Leopard as a base, if Leopard is seen as internal.

If you could share more information about this style I would be interested in hearing it.


My guess is that the THE brothers learned something in Indonesia, something that was once based on CMA and over time changed into something else.

If their schools had never said they were teaching pure CMA, then people would have accepted what they taught as just what it was, an Indonesian martial art that had its roots in southern CMAs. Fine.

That makes perfect sense and is actually the most reasonable thing I have heard thus far in this discussion.


After judging tournaments for years and doing research for years and talking to old (anyone over 70 years old that I could find) masters, I have hardly seen many schools emphasis correct body mechanics, unfortunately

Interesting. Could you expand on this a bit by giving some examples? For example, how would a punch or a kick be thrown in a form using correct body mechanics as opposed to the sloppy way you say it is usually done?

[David Jamieson]

I can hardly wait until I'm into my 70's or so and the lineage debates rage in teh SD camp.

You know, laughter makes you live longer and all that. :D

[Brad]

I'll show you my Golden Tiger Form if you show me yours. Serioulsy, the Golden Tiger Form has a long-fist feel to it, but I can assure you it did not come from Ohio. It was learned in Indonesia fairly recently (well 12-15 years ago).
Like I said, he may of stolen it from Shaolin-Do somehow ;) I first saw it about 10 or 11 years ago... I never learned it though, and only saw it demonstrated once or twice :p He was good at conning other teachers into "exchanging info", and copying forms off of video (comercial or taped himself)... then claiming the forms as his :eek:

[Jarhead101]

Hehe, see, without my help you guys wouldn't be getting all this great info :p :D

[shadowlin]

I swear, it's like the blind playing bumper cars in this place.

Golden Leopard is needed to be able to perform the Meteor Fist correctly, not just because he felt like making some requirements. This idea that he should teach it for free is so ludicrous. At one time he tried to teach for free, and no one came... this was in 1964 before most of you were born... and then he charged twice what he thought he should and he couldn't fit everyone in the gym. It's an American attitude. Furthermore... this is how he eats and lives... I think that's fair. Lastly, I'd pay a lot more to learn this material, so I'm glad it's this cheap. Better than spending it on transient, useless things such as movies or video games.

You people need to understand that while most of you weren't even alive, and the rest hadn't even heard of Shaolin, EM Leonard and others were begging Grandmaster Sin to teach Meteor Fist, after he'd taught out Hsing Ie, another style Americans didn't popularly know of till much later. This was before Jet Li had become a major star, let alone before the movie making Shaolin famous came to America. Before any of that, Grandmaster Sin was in America, teaching CMA, specifically, traditional forms of the Fukien lineage. He called it karate, because in 1964 that was what martial arts was called. There was no "Kung Fu" in1964. Kung fu doesn't even mean martial arts! And while most of you that are alive were teens with crooked teeth and braces, Sin The Karate was holding national tournaments that were attended by some of the most famous martial artists of that era.

With respect to GM Su Kong, he did not create the forms. He may have created a form as part of his legacy (I wouldn't know it), but he did not make them up. GM Ie learned what he had and also collected various materials from other CMA artists living in Bandung in the chinese districts. This is common practice of the Shaolin Order over the centuries. Shaolin is a living, breathing martial art. It evolves. Nothing stays the same "traditional" stuff over the years. It has to evolve with the times. This is both buddhist teaching and the reality of how people teach and communicate. I recently saw a Tai Chi form done by a fellow SD student... I could barely recognize it.... good thing he had a fan, narrowed it down. That's how things go. People do the best they can with what they got. I bet if all of us did the forms for our Masters' Masters, we'd be criticized non-stop for our incorrect form. So don't act so perfect. Shaolin isn't about perfection... it's about how you live your life.

And for the disbelievers:
You can debate CMA or Indonesian all you want, but while most learn stuff that they're told is CMA, we have the notes... in chinese and translated.
I won't make the supposition we have everything, but we have more than enough to last a lifetime. That's good enough for me.
The idea that 900 forms is outlandish... well, I'm glad you think so... leaves more room for me to learn, and my dedication proves I'm worthy.
The idea that 900 is too much: self-limiting. I plan to live over 100 years... I think I can start to get a pretty good picture of Tai Chi 64 by that time. Thanks for your concern.
The idea that gis are japanese: guess what, the monks wore things akin to gis a long time ago. They didn't practice in the robes. Understand that in China... like in the rest of the world (can you believe it), there are clothes to wear in society and those for exercise. Sams (frog-buttons) aren't Kung Fu uniforms... they're regular clothing. Besides, Gis are durable and excellent uniforms. I ask you: why not wear a gi? Only other way to go in my mind is shirtless...
The idea that GM Sin makes it up: you have no idea how busy that man is. If he had time to read a book not related to his work, I'd be surprised. He doesn't watch TV, and he travels all the time. Ask yourself this: if you were to make up a style, would you bother making notes in chinese, a translation, spending hours and hours on it, and go through all this trouble just to make enough money to get by till half a year later? Get. Real.
The idea that the story of our lineage is fake. Ok, I bring a quote to mind from Mark Twain, "Truth is stranger than fiction". Again, ask yourself, if you're coming to America, why would you make up some weird story that people might doubt if instead you can (remember, 1964) claim a lineage to some Shaolin priest in present day China. Would you even think "hey, a hairy man fits this scenario... a perfect fool em idea!". Again, get real. You, nor I would be random enough to make up that story. History really is stranger than fiction.

Did I miss any other typical/repeated slants and questionings of SD?

I want to, in closing, thank our SD representatives on here for being such respectful ambassadors. You'll note they never get on here and bash other styles. In fact, I wonder what that says about our system that we don't log onto forums and start ripping on kempo, or jui jitsu, etc... I have never once seen a thread started by a SD person that was disrespectful to another style or teacher. That is humility/respect we inherit from our Grandmaster, who is way beyond these "forums". I generally, myself, try not to get on these things because I get so aggrevated at the self-limited views of the envious and treacherous people that inhabit forums these days. But when I saw the good name of my GM being sullied by "jiblets and crows" I could not help myself.

When I am a more mature martial artists, I'll learn to let people do as they do, and keep going.

But for now... you'll just have to live with it.

edit: here come the sophists.

[Golden Tiger]

But for now... you'll just have to live with it.

edit: here come the sophists.

Don't hold back, tell them how you really feel.....:eek:

By the way, welcome to the quagmire shadowlin....

[Wong Fei Hong]

Is there a dog boy flicks fleas form ?:D

[Golden Tiger]

Is there a dog boy flicks fleas form ?:D

1.2........

[Brad]

If a possibly fake history and funny looking uniforms are the worst problems in your school, then I think you're doing pretty well... If you think what you learn is useful in your life, and your teacher isn't doing anything too crooked that would really endanger the school's future (like molesting kids, setting himself up as a religous leader, illegal contracts, running tax scams, getting involved in illegal drugs, running a gang, etc,) then you're better off than a lot of people out there.

I know, a bit diiferent than the anti-SD stuff I usually spout... but I don't really care about that stuff anymore (I'm no historian... wtf do I really know about those kind of things?).

[lxtruong]

If a possibly fake history and funny looking uniforms are the worst problems in your school, then I think you're doing pretty well...

In our defense, you can't really call wearing karate gis a "funny looking uniform". Now have you see the Kuk Sool Won uniforms for their masters? Now THAT is a funny looking uniform.

[Judge Pen]

If a possibly fake history and funny looking uniforms are the worst problems in your school, then I think you're doing pretty well... If you think what you learn is useful in your life, and your teacher isn't doing anything too crooked that would really endanger the school's future (like molesting kids, setting himself up as a religous leader, illegal contracts, running tax scams, getting involved in illegal drugs, running a gang, etc,) then you're better off than a lot of people out there.

I know, a bit diiferent than the anti-SD stuff I usually spout... but I don't really care about that stuff anymore (I'm no historian... wtf do I really know about those kind of things?).

Who are you calling funny looking? :D

I like wearing frog-buttons personally (although most of the time we work out in cuffed pants, a T-Shirt and our sash, the gis didn't bother me when I wore them. It's like putting on your best suit before trial, just having it on can focus you toward your goals a little more.

We had a demonstration Saturday night here in Tennessee and one of our teachers has a very sucsessful kids class. He had two students one boy about 6 years old and the other girl must have been barely three years old. These two were amazing. She did one of our basic tiger forms and nailed it. The boy did an advanced monkey form that was awesome. All arguments about history, lineage etc aside, these two kids were having a blast and they were learning a lot of discipline and determination to be able to do these forms as well as they did and in front of a fairly large crowd.

[Ray Pina]

We learn history to know the past the past shapes the future. I feel the forms are a recreation of history and by training in them i can somehow "know"the creator and his or her personality or what "special" idea they were trying to convey. By doing so I can preserve history and make a difference in myself. Also some forms have certain emphasis I feel that is the "secret" / "special" technique or way. Sure I pay for the seminars but I also pay for a book that could teach a form. How would you like to spend your money? they are both of history. Training in something that was made up with out an empirical test of time is a waste of time , it hasent been proven. KC:o ;)


The Apple 2C worked, so did the Commadore 64 ..... You have a choice. You want one of those, or the new Apple Powerbook?

Now, I'm the wrong one for this thread because I think all form is bull$hit. Even if the moves worked that way, why train them in a sequence that will never take place? Fights are unique.

Once you see that, wouldn't it be more beneficial to just train the principle the one move in the form is trying to teach? Everything is pretty much a variation of covering, collapsing or pushing down; lifting up; pushing or pulling; inside position or outside position.

That's why chi sau is useful. You're hands are either both outside, both inside, or one of two possible combinations of inside and outside. Can you lift, press, cover, trap from there?

Then there is not having the hand at all and looking for it.

That's it. Train all of that --- believe me, it's enough to keep you very busy -- and you're now training in fighting.

The proof that form is crap?

I see very, very few form champs or wushu practioners in general who can fight at all, never mind loving and thriving on it. I don't personally know any fighters who attribute form for their fighting attributes.

Form = keep coming and paying me.

[kwaichang]

Hi let me introduce myself I am a forms man that can fight . Now you know me. If Fighting is all there was to martial arts why not buy the best gun possible if it is all about winning. You apparantly do not understand forms or katas what ever you call them remember boards dont hit back but the mind does KC:confused:

[chud]

The proof that form is crap?

I see very, very few form champs or wushu practioners in general who can fight at all, never mind loving and thriving on it. I don't personally know any fighters who attribute form for their fighting attributes.

Form = keep coming and paying me.

Ray, your comments about combat training (and chi sau especially) are well taken, however I must ask you a question. I notice from the link in your signature that you practice an internal style, I assume this means that you do some TaiChi. Do you not believe that the TaiChi form has value?

[tree beard]

well, i searched the forums for golden leopard and i found this old one...

so, you all will be happy to know that i went to the seminar this past weekend and guess what...

I LIKED IT!!!!

and i recognize that it just eats at your balls that i went and spent my (husband's) hard-earned money on a kata that you will NEVER know, but why does it affect you so? i mean, it did me no harm, spending MY money. now, had i invested the same amount of money in, oh say, meals at mcdonald's, then you might have a compelling argument.

besides, this whole thread was started on false information. there were never any words published by the sda even related to "super secret" or "invincible" that i ever saw. but, clearing that point up didn't stop you. you just continued to change your argument and we continued to be unaffected. after all of these pages, did you succeed in deterring even one member of sd?

[Judge Pen]

Most people here don't care about the SD debate one way or another. And others just like to argue over anything.

I'm glad you liked the form.

[Golden Tiger]

Yes, it was a nice 2 forms that he taught out. Also, it was the largest turnout by far...324 people attended. My only complaint (as always) is that it was a lot of material to be taught out in one day. I long for the days of when he was activrly teaching and we were able to get it in small doses. But that aside, it was nice.

My review:

Small forms based on building speed and teaching the proper places and combinations (up to 7 strikes at a time) to hit. On the top level, very good training indeed for close fighting and multiple strikes, on another level, many of the internal theories are being used to make the attacks a little bit sweeter.

On a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being the lowest, 10 the highest) I give it an 8.

And welcome Tree beard, don't think I have met you before. Glad you came to the seminar and enjoyed it. Oh, and be prepared to grow a thick skin for these guys...:D

[MasterKiller]

[Pai Mei]

Like all American women, you only know how to order dinner and spend a man's money.

[/Pai Mei]

[Judge Pen]

Yes, it was a nice 2 forms that he taught out. Also, it was the largest turnout by far...324 people attended. My only complaint (as always) is that it was a lot of material to be taught out in one day. I long for the days of when he was activrly teaching and we were able to get it in small doses. But that aside, it was nice.

My review:

Small forms based on building speed and teaching the proper places and combinations (up to 7 strikes at a time) to hit. On the top level, very good training indeed for close fighting and multiple strikes, on another level, many of the internal theories are being used to make the attacks a little bit sweeter.

On a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being the lowest, 10 the highest) I give it an 8.

And welcome Tree beard, don't think I have met you before. Glad you came to the seminar and enjoyed it. Oh, and be prepared to grow a thick skin for these guys...:D

The first form being primarily hands and the second being more kick oriented? Multiple strikes combos to precise targets? Did he go into the internal theory and the pressure point combinations or was there the time?

[Golden Tiger]

The first form being primarily hands and the second being more kick oriented?

No, both had both hands and kicks. Both, from what I could gather, were primers for a shift from the physical to the internal.


Multiple strikes combos to precise targets?

Very precise..to the exact point needed you could even say.


Did he go into the internal theory and the pressure point combinations or was there the time?

Yes, quiet a few of them in fact.
Yes, and were series of combinations based on the above question but that was only briefly mentioned. If you new the theories, then it was very clear.
No, there wasn't enough time. But with what they got, by the next seminar, most will understand what is going on.

I'll probably stop there. No need to tell it all. JP, snd me a pm if you have another questions.

[serene_dragon]

The proof that form is crap?

I see very, very few form champs or wushu practioners in general who can fight at all, never mind loving and thriving on it. I don't personally know any fighters who attribute form for their fighting attributes.

Form = keep coming and paying me.

Some people dont have a clue

[kwaichang]

JP why didnt you go to the seminar Golden Leopard ? KC:confused:

[Judge Pen]

They will be taught in Tennessee sometime this year. Master Garry was taught the forms by Master Sin, but I'm not sure when they will be taught here. I've been assured that we will get all 4 leopard forms before Liu Shing is taught out.

[themeecer]

Good gosh amighty that was a crowded seminar. I may have to compare notes with you GT. I was in the back during his initial talk about the form and training. I didn't hear a single word. How is it that we have been having these seminars for several years now and have not figured out that we need a good mic for him to use.

I wish we had a closed forum, on one of our sites, that had sections to discuss individual forms. For example, if you went to this seminar you would have access to the forum on Golden Leopard. It would allow us to discuss the aspects of it to our heart's content. I have used similar things on magician's forums.

JP .. if you didn't get the preying mantis stuff from a few years back then this will be a very valuable seminar for you to attend, with all the pressure points taught. Well even if you did go to the mantis seminars this still would be valuable to you.

When I get a break I plan on really committing this one to memory. Too many of my seminar videos simply go into my library.

[Crushing Fist]

I hate that I missed it... I only found out about it from this thread yesterday

I wonder if it would be possible to get caught up in Tennesee? I've always wondered what Meteor Fist was all about.


Oh this is my first post, so... nice to meet everyone

[Ray Pina]

Formula not form ..... not the move you do, but how you do it (intention/mechanics/structure)

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah...and you know what else....Shaolin-Do sucks!!!:D

FP

But seriously there is something to be said for what somebody brings to the kung fu training in terms of discipline and mindset, as well their natural biological inclination to be a good fighter.
So that's definitely part of the equation....half of it, in fact.

The other half is what your learning and who you're learning it from. Shaolin Do is mostly criticized for its extraordinary number of forms and its lack of cultural consistency.

I think it is possible to become a good fighter thru the Shaolin Do curriculum and culture but it might be more efficient by other means.

So that's what we're really talking about here is not whether Shaolin Do will get an individual from A to B. Given enough time and experience I think the right individual will get from A to B via Shaolin Do.

The question is what is the most efficient way to get from A to B?

Learning 900 forms or even attempting to seems like a hugely inefficient endeavor. You really only need a handful of techniques to become a proficient fighter and then apply those in real time under pressure.

When you get into weapons its the same thing. A handful of techniques and then real time practice (when its feasible to do so.)

For example in Choy Lay Fut we have the "10 seeds." In Taiji we have the "13 postures." In Hung Gar they have "10 killing hands." In Ba Gua its the palm changes....so on and so forth.

The extra forms are kind of like variations on a theme. They might show you a new way to apply a more simple technique or move in more complicated way. IMHO there kind of extracurricular.

What I don't understand about Shaolin-Do is what is the central theme? It seems like you are doing so many arts with very different "themes" that when you go to fight your bodies going to get very confused.

Maybe the right individual can pull it off but it seems like there are clearer more straightforward ways to acheiving the same goal.

My 2 cents....

FP

[themeecer]

Yeah...and you know what else....Shaolin-Do sucks!!!:D

FP
I guess Fu-Pow should know .. he is the expert on suck-atude.

[themeecer]

I hate that I missed it... I only found out about it from this thread yesterday

I wonder if it would be possible to get caught up in Tennesee? I've always wondered what Meteor Fist was all about.


Oh this is my first post, so... nice to meet everyone
Yes go check it out. You are part of JP's (Judge Pen) camp (the Tenn/Atlanta connection) so that would work great for you. I am not sure if we had any coming from there for it now since we are sort of split into regions now. So sign up for it when it is taught there. I assume you will have the same prereqs of having to take both of these preliminary seminars to take part in the Liu Hsing ones.

And welcome to the forums, from someone who hardly ever comes here.

[Fu-Pow]

I guess Fu-Pow should know .. he is the expert on suck-atude.

Don't take yourself so seriously...I was making fun of the SD haters. ;)

[themeecer]

Don't take yourself so seriously...I was making fun of the SD haters. ;)
Actually I was making fun right back at ya. However, I thought you were one of the SD haters as well.

[lxtruong]

You know, after the double fan kata seminar and having recently worked up 5 animal fist, I can't help but say "50 postures! Bah, nothing!".

Anyway, I'll just say that these forms were "the shizznit". I did a bunch of research and I finally figured out where most of the points were. He did almost no explaination on pressure points so us lowly 2nd degrees had to go and do outside research. Google comes to the rescue once again. I can find almost no description of "LE1" though. I know it's around the kneecap but that's about all.

I'm counting down the days until 3rd and 4th roads.

[Crushing Fist]

Yeah...and you know what else....Shaolin-Do sucks!!!:D

FP


ok?



But seriously there is something to be said for what somebody brings to the kung fu training in terms of discipline and mindset, as well their natural biological inclination to be a good fighter.
So that's definitely part of the equation....half of it, in fact.


agreed... though I would say that it is more like 95% of the equation



The other half is what your learning and who you're learning it from. Shaolin Do is mostly criticized for its extraordinary number of forms and its lack of cultural consistency.

I think it is possible to become a good fighter thru the Shaolin Do curriculum and culture but it might be more efficient by other means.


to get up to 1st degree black in SD requires about 23 forms... this is "extraordinary"? you get another 9 or so in 1st black... again, "extraordinary"?

"cultural consistancy"? is it a culture or a martial art?

possible to become a good fighter? I can only assume you have never seen Elder Master Mullins or either of his master sons in action... "good fighter" doesn't even come close to describing it... not to mention some of the other excellent masters in the system.




So that's what we're really talking about here is not whether Shaolin Do will get an individual from A to B. Given enough time and experience I think the right individual will get from A to B via Shaolin Do.

The question is what is the most efficient way to get from A to B?


If all you want is to get form A to B then it probably isn't the most efficient system... just remember, the alphabet has letters past "B"



Learning 900 forms or even attempting to seems like a hugely inefficient endeavor. You really only need a handful of techniques to become a proficient fighter and then apply those in real time under pressure.


Entirely too much is made of this "900 forms" figure. The average 3rd degree in SD has less than 50... maybe more if they go to all the seminars they can find... which I used to do. Some of my favorite forms were from seminars.




When you get into weapons its the same thing. A handful of techniques and then real time practice (when its feasible to do so.)


For example in Choy Lay Fut we have the "10 seeds." In Taiji we have the "13 postures." In Hung Gar they have "10 killing hands." In Ba Gua its the palm changes....so on and so forth.


I'm sure your system has many merits.

by the way, is that you in the video clips linked in your profile? and what style of Ba Gua is that?



The extra forms are kind of like variations on a theme. They might show you a new way to apply a more simple technique or move in more complicated way. IMHO there kind of extracurricular.

What I don't understand about Shaolin-Do is what is the central theme? It seems like you are doing so many arts with very different "themes" that when you go to fight your bodies going to get very confused.

Maybe the right individual can pull it off but it seems like there are clearer more straightforward ways to acheiving the same goal.

My 2 cents....

FP

and finally we arrive at the point...

Based on your statement it would seem that to learn all the forms of one style would be unnecessary, as they are by definition variations on a theme. Therefore learning a few forms each from several different styles would in fact teach more...

that's what I'm getting from what you said, and that's what SD is.

the fact is when you "go to fight" your body will do what it can... it doesn't get confused. You may know "10 seeds" or "10 killing hands" or "13 postures" but in sparring how much of that can you fluidly incorporate successfully? The amount that your body assimilates and can do without thinking is what you have truly learned.. and here is my point:

everyone is made differently, and most people don't know how they are made until they have trained seriously for a long time. So you may think "I love mantis, I want to do that" when your body is actually more suited to white crane... if you didn't practice a little of each you would never know. The masters in SD don't pick their specialties at random because they like them... its what time has shown their bodies are made to do. Without the experience of some type of cross-style training it is difficult to know what it is you're body is made to do.

To get from A to B I agree, Shaolin Do is not the most efficient, but I have to say again: its where you go from B that really matters

[lxtruong]

Yeah...and you know what else....Shaolin-Do sucks!!!:D

FP

But seriously there is something to be said for what somebody brings to the kung fu training in terms of discipline and mindset, as well their natural biological inclination to be a good fighter.
So that's definitely part of the equation....half of it, in fact.

The other half is what your learning and who you're learning it from. Shaolin Do is mostly criticized for its extraordinary number of forms and its lack of cultural consistency.

I think it is possible to become a good fighter thru the Shaolin Do curriculum and culture but it might be more efficient by other means.

So that's what we're really talking about here is not whether Shaolin Do will get an individual from A to B. Given enough time and experience I think the right individual will get from A to B via Shaolin Do.

The question is what is the most efficient way to get from A to B?


Yes. I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, I would break it into thirds. 1/3 mentality. 1/3 is physical ability. and the final 1/3 is training.



Learning 900 forms or even attempting to seems like a hugely inefficient endeavor. You really only need a handful of techniques to become a proficient fighter and then apply those in real time under pressure.


This has to be the most oft-quoted and least representative thing said about Shaolin-Do. I say this because while it's true that there are 900 forms in the system, under no circumstances is anyone ever really going to learn all 900 of them. In fact, from what I understand even our Grandmaster only learned about 200 or 300 of them personally. The rest he has in the form of notes handed down from his teacher.

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.

So, in 15-20 years of training you're looking at a "required" 67 forms. While that's quite a bit, that's hardly 900.



When you get into weapons its the same thing. A handful of techniques and then real time practice (when its feasible to do so.)

For example in Choy Lay Fut we have the "10 seeds." In Taiji we have the "13 postures." In Hung Gar they have "10 killing hands." In Ba Gua its the palm changes....so on and so forth.

The extra forms are kind of like variations on a theme. They might show you a new way to apply a more simple technique or move in more complicated way. IMHO there kind of extracurricular.


However, I wouldn't say that redundancy is totally useless. I know that many times I've been struck by an application in a form that I'm learning that opens up applications in older forms in my mind. This is part of the "problem" of having applications hidden in forms. They require work to extract the application back out. Is it the most efficient way? Probably not, but to be honest in my mind it's a much more fun way.



What I don't understand about Shaolin-Do is what is the central theme? It seems like you are doing so many arts with very different "themes" that when you go to fight your bodies going to get very confused.

Maybe the right individual can pull it off but it seems like there are clearer more straightforward ways to acheiving the same goal.

My 2 cents....

FP

Very much so. I went to a seminar by one of our senior masters once. It was a push hands seminar. One thing he said totally stuck out in my mind (paraphrased): "The corallary of the old adage about the finger that points at the moon is that there are many fingers, but only one moon" There are multiple ways to get to mastery.

It's true that because there are so many forms and because our curriculum draws from many different styles there is no "theme". This unfortunately means that many people aren't going to get from SD what they would get from a style that focused on one thing only. However, because SD has so many styles, you get to pick the style that you want and focus on that. However, this can be quickly overwhelming.

I heard on the radio/read somewhere about a classic pyschology experiment where there were two supermarkets. One supermarket had a display with 6 types of jams. One supermarket had a display with 24 types of jams. While shoppers spent more time at the 24 jam display, they were more likely to buy a jam at the 6 jam display. What this shows is that when faced with an overabundance of choices, consumers are overwhelmed.

However, I bet that if you interviewed all the people that bought jam, those from the 24 jam display are more likely to have found their dream jam. :)

[CaptinPickAxe]

The fact of the matter is this:

SD guys will never listen to any evidence pretaining to form-stacking, past-embellishing, Lackluster-techniques, or any thing with it's roots made through proof, observation, or trial because of one thing. They are happy with learning the self-hating XMA, ******* child of Kempo/CMA(*jerking motion*)/TMA. They have yellow fever and think that since it's not a Chinese martial art that it is not effective. They are unsure of themselves and there for fasten the blinders a little tighter so they can block out all the arguments against it.

Fact is, we cannot change their views....so quit trying

[Judge Pen]

CPA, I don't think that's true. I listen to every criticism. I understand most of them. Some of them I think are ignorant or petty and others I learn from. And I am very sure of myself. I think I have to be to study SD! :D

FP if we are talking about efficiency in training, then why are we talking about TMA? TMA, in today's times, is not the most efficient way to A and B. Some people like taking the scenic route as opposed to the interstate.

[Fu-Pow]

FP if we are talking about efficiency in training, then why are we talking about TMA? TMA, in today's times, is not the most efficient way to A and B. Some people like taking the scenic route as opposed to the interstate.

Correction: TMA trained correctly.

My Sifu was just saying last night to a potential new student. No forms you don't know how to move, no sparring you don't know how to fight." You need both.

He's pretty traditional and personally I don't know of a more efficient way than TMA done right. Now if you do 'em wrong......well there are plenty of "traditional" chinese sayings about crappy martial arts training too. There's been real training and BS training for a very long time.

Just sayin'....

FP

[Fu-Pow]

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.

How many of those forms are hand forms vs. weapon forms?




So, in 15-20 years of training you're looking at a "required" 67 forms. While that's quite a bit, that's hardly 900.


I think the 900 comes from some SD website. 67 forms for 20 years or training is still alot. However, Choy Lay Fut the kung fu style I practice could come pretty close. I think my Sifu learned around 40-50 forms in about that time.

I'm interested in the weapon to hand form ratio in SD. In CLF it's pretty close to 50/50. There are lots of forms but many are weapon forms.

So if you look at just hand forms its still alot but not 200 as some have claimed.

[Blacktiger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

[htowndragon]

hey can someone tell me where sin the got his ba gua from?

i saw a site where his students were doing it. looked like karate.

and can someone tell me the connection between SD and pakua international?

they ahve the same lineage somewhere along the way

[themeecer]

No forms you don't know how to move, no sparring you don't know how to fight." You need both.
Oh man .. that is awesome. I am going to steal that. Thank you for that quote.

You never answered me from above. Weren't you one of our strongest critics at one time? I know you and I had agreed on some other topics, possibly some discussion on chi (I don't remember for sure), but I had thought you and I had clashed strongly a year or so ago on the topic of SD. Is this not the same Fu-Pow?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Peace Be, JP. Long time no see

You know of my distaste for SD. It is completely true FOR THE ONES I HAVE SEEN/fought/trained with. I cannot speak for the whole bunch, I can speak for Texas though. They're a bunch of Tornado Kicking, Dim Makking nancy boys. I have met a few skilled fighters in SD, but they ended up in other arts.

Based on my experience in Texas and here on the net, they seem to be blind (sans a few). I know you can agree with me or at least to a certain extent.

[Golden Tiger]

almost no description of "LE1" though

Try looking up extra point ST 35 (xi yan). The other confusing one was GB 1. It is listed as different names on different charts.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Tornado kicks are fun and they teach you a lot about body control and explosive power. . . . but I would never use one in a real fight unless I heard some booming voice from above cry "FINISH HIM!" while he is standing there staggering in place.

Fu Pow, my typical class with my teacher and another student of the same ranking as me (Saturday morning 8:00-9:15) is warm-up, form, drill a move from that form, and a round of intense sparring for about 90 seconds; another form, another drill and another round of sparring. Its a pretty effiecient use of the time and works on the form, the practical application/proper technique of specific moves from the form, and plety of hard sparring. When I first started learning under my first teacher, we ended every class with an intense sparring session. So, yes, SD had both.

As far as your question of empty hand vs weapon forms the breakdown, by my count, is this:

To 1st Black: 23 total--7 weapons (3 staff, dao, sai, Kwan dao, short stick)
To 2nd Black: 10 additional--4 weapons (all spears)
To 3rd Black: 10 additional--3 weapon (all jians)
To 4th Black: 10 additional--3 weapon (double hook swords, double broad swords and 9 section chain whip)

Throw in some nunchuku twirls in there (no mandatory form) and you get your hands on 11 different weapons, 17 weapon forms)

I have only about 15 additional forms that I've picked up along the way. Most of those I don't practice regularly, but could work them up if I had to.

[Crushing Fist]

hey can someone tell me where sin the got his ba gua from?

i saw a site where his students were doing it. looked like karate.

and can someone tell me the connection between SD and pakua international?

they ahve the same lineage somewhere along the way

what site was this?

the ba gua in SD that I do looks nothing like karate... unless karate involves cirlcle walking and fluid circular hand and body movements. Of course there are many ba gua forms in SD, but the common one is classical pa kua (I still prefer that translation). There are also 8 animal pa kua (my favorite form of all), dragon pa kua, snake pa kua (one of senior master grooms' specialties) and pa kua spear amongst others. None of them look anything like any karate I've ever seen.


JP- Those are interesting differences in what we learn. In atlanta 3rd to 4th weapons are bo staff (pan long bang, entwine the dragon bo) li kwei double axes, and 9 section whip.

I have seen double broadswords and double hookswords forms in seminars here, but they aren't in our advancement curriculum.

I wonder about the empty hand curriculum differences

here its 4 roads of Hua plus 2 Hua 2-man sets, and the Tiger-Crane

[Golden Tiger]

JP- Those are interesting differences in what we learn. In atlanta 3rd to 4th weapons are bo staff (pan long bang, entwine the dragon bo) li kwei double axes, and 9 section whip.

I have seen double broadswords and double hookswords forms in seminars here, but they aren't in our advancement curriculum.

I wonder about the empty hand curriculum differences

here its 4 roads of Hua plus 2 Hua 2-man sets, and the Tiger-Crane

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

[Crushing Fist]

hello golden tiger...

I have seen this list before, but again it just illustrates the differences

I don't think in any area all the forms are required in the black belt ranks, and a lot of the forms are moved to different rank advancement levels...

for instance we get Tang Lang Chien in 1st Black and Tiger Crane in 3rd

just wondering what the different locations specifics are

[GreenCloudCLF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

You know I do not know much about Shaolin-Do and have not been convinced of either it's benefits or it's evilness.

What I have a problem with is people lacing quotes like this, because it is Shaolin-Do. There are plenty of Kung-Fu Sifu who know a ton of forms. But Shaolin-Do gets ranked on because of this. Everyone knows people who are "forms colectors" and want to learn a ton of forms. From what Judge Pen is saying about his exposure to weapons, I think that's cool.

But don't attacl for something that exists in "Regular Kung-Fu land" also.

[lxtruong]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

I think that's pretty ridiculous. There is no reason that someone that has been training for TWENTY YEARS couldn't do 60-odd forms to a high standard. I mean, if you ask an amatuer dancer that has been dancing for 20 years if they could perform that number of dances to a high quality I'm pretty sure they'd say yes (assuming they practiced said forms semi-regularly). Or a semi-pro football player 60 routes? Or a musician 60 songs? (note: not all forms are created equal, some are easier than others)

[Fu-Pow]

Oh man .. that is awesome. I am going to steal that. Thank you for that quote.

You never answered me from above. Weren't you one of our strongest critics at one time? I know you and I had agreed on some other topics, possibly some discussion on chi (I don't remember for sure), but I had thought you and I had clashed strongly a year or so ago on the topic of SD. Is this not the same Fu-Pow?

Yeah same ol' Fu-Pow. I'm still critical of SD but I think that the right individual could make it work based on there intelligence, aptitude, attitude and willingness to mix it up in sparring....especially from other more orthodox styles.

I'm now equally critical of schools with a more "believable" lineage but that don't mix it up.

What I'm hearing now about the SD curriculum also makes me a little less critical. The number of forms that you guys learn to become "black belt" isn't that far off from many other kung fu styles.

Now I'm wondering how long it takes to earn that "black belt?"

I think SD would benefit a lot from trimming down and consolidating the curriculum along a certain "theme" or else its always going to be faced with the criticism that it is creating "jacks of all trades and masters of none."

As for the historical/cutural stuff surrounding SD, I still think its a lot of hot air but its really kind of irrelevant to whether or not SD will get you from A to B, from a novice to a kick ass fighter.


EO

[yutyeesam]

my best friend does SD, and has been for 20 years. i don't have a problem with it other than the forms look r3t4rd3d to me. i can't talk, b/c once upon a time, i learned some typical fake fu (you know, tkd master who learned a few kung-fu moves), and we used to banter and trade our fake fu in high school all the time. then, one day i learned some real CLF from a real CLF master, and my world was flipped. When my sihing told me, "Whoever taught you your horse stance taught you some fake kung-fu. You gotta start over!" I realized I was finally learning the real deal.

but, my friend who's been doing SD is a tough m0t43r fv(k3r, so I don't knock it for anything except for the hairy faced dude and the r3t4rd3d looking forms - and all that is superficial anyways. the actual style can produce good results, because as with anything, it is about the individual effort that makes the style work.

-123

[lxtruong]

Now I'm wondering how long it takes to earn that "black belt?"


The way I got the 15-20 years number is going with:

2-3 years to 1st black
2-years to 2nd black
3-years to 3rd black
4-years to 4th black
5-years to 5th black.

I think those are good approximations of the "minimum" amount of time you're required to spend at each rank. You might learn all your stuff earlier, but you still have to wait. The 5 years to 5th is just a guess though, I'm not sure if that's really the case.

[Fu-Pow]

The way I got the 15-20 years number is going with:

2-3 years to 1st black
2-years to 2nd black
3-years to 3rd black
4-years to 4th black
5-years to 5th black.

I think those are good approximations of the "minimum" amount of time you're required to spend at each rank. You might learn all your stuff earlier, but you still have to wait. The 5 years to 5th is just a guess though, I'm not sure if that's really the case.

So you learn 27 forms in 2-3 years? Ok...I think that's too much. I know around 27 forms and it took me 9 years of Choy Lay Fut.

What kind of time commitment does that take to learn the 27 forms in 2-3 years? ie how many hrs/week on average?

[Crushing Fist]

of the "27 forms" only 15 are of an intermediate difficulty, the rest are very short beginner forms or sets of techniques. None of these are advanced or long forms.

Regarding the achievement of a black belt, as quoted from the CSC atlanta site:

"On average it takes about 750 to 1,000 hours worth of work. Some people do it in a couple of years – most take longer."

I put in way more hours than that, myself... but then I was also considered "the sicko masochist with a taste for self-torture"

[lxtruong]

So you learn 27 forms in 2-3 years? Ok...I think that's too much. I know around 27 forms and it took me 9 years of Choy Lay Fut.

What kind of time commitment does that take to learn the 27 forms in 2-3 years? ie how many hrs/week on average?

Well, breaking it down further, you get 15 forms at brown belt, and 6 at lower rank, and I would count all 1-30 short kata as one kata. ****, that adds up to 22. Where the hell did I get 27.

The 6 lower rank katas are pretty short/simple. I would characterize them as all being in difficulty of the level of TKD Blue belt form and below.

The next 15 are moderate in terms of difficulty. I would characterize them as varying from 15-40 postures in length.

It is quite a bit though, I won't argue with you there.

[Judge Pen]

I'm pretty certain that some of the lower-ranking forms are only part of a larger form. Most of them are 30 seconds until you get to brown, and then they get into the minute range. Not like the stuff I'm learning now 3, 4, 5 minute external forms. I've been a 3rd black working on 4th black for 2 years now. I've learned 5.5 forms in that period of time.

[Judge Pen]

Well, breaking it down further, you get 15 forms at brown belt, and 6 at lower rank, and I would count all 1-30 short kata as one kata. ****, that adds up to 22. Where the hell did I get 27.

The 6 lower rank katas are pretty short/simple. I would characterize them as all being in difficulty of the level of TKD Blue belt form and below.

The next 15 are moderate in terms of difficulty. I would characterize them as varying from 15-40 postures in length.

It is quite a bit though, I won't argue with you there.

I counted sparring techniques 1-20 as a single form too to come up with 23.

[Crushing Fist]

there are also the other technique sets that aren't "forms" but that still must be learned - chin-na - ippons - one-steps- nunchaku techniques

et voila

27

[Judge Pen]

I've been exposed to some CLF, and your forms are a lot longer then the forms taught below black-sash in SD. Once you get to black, the forms get lengthier and more complicated.

23 typical CLF forms would be waaaay toooo much in 3 years.

[Fu-Pow]

So how many hand forms of a decent length (3-4 min ~100 movements) are required for 1st black?

[lxtruong]

So how many hand forms of a decent length (3-4 min ~100 movements) are required for 1st black?

100 moves? I would say white->black you probably have the eq. of what, 8? Tops. I'd put all of below brown into 1 100 move form. Then 3rd brown to be like 1.5. 2nd brown to be like 2 and 1st brown to be like 2, maybe 3.

[lxtruong]

100 moves? I would say white->black you probably have the eq. of what, 8? Tops. I'd put all of below brown into 1 100 move form. Then 3rd brown to be like 1.5. 2nd brown to be like 2 and 1st brown to be like 2, maybe 3.

Oh here is a better metric: all of our katas up to 1st black takes 30 minutes full blast (or as full blast as you can go doing katas for 30 minutes).

[Judge Pen]

My first to second black test, not counting sparring, took about an hour and a half. Same for my second to third.

[themeecer]

So how many hand forms of a decent length (3-4 min ~100 movements) are required for 1st black?
Zero. Unless you count our 30 short forms linked together. We require them to be done in less than 3 minutes. The only other one I can think of that aproaches 3-4 minutes is the kwan dao (and that isn't an empty hand form), and that is simply because the sucker is so freakin heavy and at that level no one has the speed or the strength to do it any faster.

At our school we don't consider a blackbelt to be an 'expert.' This is simply the level you become a student, prior to that you are simply a customer or an aspiring student.

[Shaolindynasty]

prior to that you are simply a customer

Bad choice of words

[themeecer]

Bad choice of words
:) This again. No, it is a perfect choice of words. Until a person puts the time commitment in they are not a student. They don’t have the capabilities to be a student, yet. I don’t run a knitting class where we all hold hands and sing kum bah yah. My customers do know I love each and every one of them, and I can’t wait till they get their blackbelts and finally become students, or disciples. I urge them along and praise any improvement I see. I invest a lot of myself in them without any financial compensation. They have my utmost loyalty. I have phone conversations with them; I send them emails. However, until they display the loyalty back they are not considered a student.

I actually tell them they are not considered a student until they receive their blackbelt. This statement is received very well. It challenges them.

[Judge Pen]

I agree; bad choice of words. . . . I've always heard it like this. Prior to black, you are a beginer. After black, you are a student.

[themeecer]

I agree; bad choice of words. . . . I've always heard it like this. Prior to black, you are a beginer. After black, you are a student.

Edit: Sorry .. I was irate.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Bad choice of words

I don't see the problem, besides arguing semantics. It is the equivalent of saying some are "outer door" students and other are "inner door" students. Why does the word choice matter? It is all the same concept.

[wdl]

Personally I don't care what you think.

No wonder both camps could never get along. Especially if that's the mindset that both sides could exhibit.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Personally I don't care what you think. This isn't your school. We will run things the way we want to. Just like your camp decided to run off and do things the way you want to.


I don't care if you care about what I think either but it was a bad choice of words, plain and simple. Customer implies that the business only takes place because money changes hands. Good thing the upper ranks don't see it that way...or else you lowly 3rd and 4ths would get nothing. Bad bad meecer...:(

And this "only when a person reaches black belt do they become a student" BS....well, the seminar was a perfect example of that not being true. While some of the "customers" were working their butts off to learn the forms, some of the "serious black belts" were talking to their minions about matters that were long past and shouldn't have been brought up.

[themeecer]

I don't care if you care about what I think either but it was a bad choice of words, plain and simple. Customer implies that the business only takes place because money changes hands. Good thing the upper ranks don't see it that way...or else you lowly 3rd and 4ths would get nothing. Bad bad meecer...:(

Well until you start paying my bills, then it doesn't really matter to you what I call them. A colored belt is not a beginner. A blackbelt is a beginner. I consider myself a beginner.

[wdl]

A colored belt is not a beginner.


Considering they just started doesn't that by definition make them a beginner? Your symantecs are getting loose here. You know, when you walk through the door, your beginning. Doesn't that make you a beginner? Should the proper attitude be that we are all beginners no matter how much experience we have?

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

I don't see the problem, besides arguing semantics. It is the equivalent of saying some are "outer door" students and other are "inner door" students. Why does the word choice matter? It is all the same concept.

Agree. Most Sifus, at least the ones that make a living at kung fu, look at their beginners as customers or clients. Mostly because you know that 95% of them are going to quit.
The 5% that stick around and tough it out are your "real" students because you know they will carry on the tradition after you retire or die.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Your symantecs are getting loose here.

-Will

Are we talking about internet security software or use of language here....LOL:D

[themeecer]

Agree. Most Sifus, at least the ones that make a living at kung fu, look at their beginners as customers or clients. Mostly because you know that 95% of them are going to quit.
The 5% that stick around and tough it out are your "real" students because you know they will carry on the tradition after you retire or die.

FP
What the heck .. Fu-Pow is defending me?!??!?!?!?!? Are the planets aligned? This is funny.

Your statments are exactly what I was getting at. You put it better in words than I ever could.

[wdl]

Are we talking about internet security software or use of language here....LOL:D

lol. yeah semantics.

Fu-Pow, see your symantecs are right. 95% of the students that quit are what pays the bills. Meecer is failing to see that the general connotation of the word in the sense he used it isn't the best.


-Will

[GreenCloudCLF]

lol. yeah semantics.

Fu-Pow, see your symantecs are right. 95% of the students that quit are what pays the bills. Meecer is failing to see that the general connotation of the word in the sense he used it isn't the best.


-Will

Will,

Fu-Pow refers to the beginners as customers or clients, how is that different from how meecer phrased it?

[wdl]

Will,

Fu-Pow refers to the beginners as customers or clients, how is that different from how meecer phrased it?

He placed the word "simply" in front of customer. That puts a very dry look on the whole thing. He went back and explained later what he meant by that, and that he doesn't treat them as dry, simple customers, but he worded it that way. It's a complete semantic issue. What was said was, "Bad choice of words". Not one word. The phrase "simply customers" means to me what GT said, the only relationship between the purchaser and the seller is that, money changing hands. That's wrong.

Anyone who has been a MA practitioner for a long time knows that the 95% or so that drop out are who pays the bills. We all know those are the ones that give our instructors a way to provide floor space to teach us. Big deal. Just treat everyone as a person, not simply a customer. I have alot of friends that I met through Kung Fu. 95% of them dropped out. Either they dropped out because of family issues, had to move for work, it wasn't for them, maybe injury, didn't have money to pay, etc. If I see them in passing at the store, resturant, etc. it's a chance to talk, see how they are doing etc. To me they aren't "simply customers" they are friends.

-Will

[themeecer]

Just treat everyone as a person, not simply a customer. ................... To me they aren't "simply customers" they are friends.

-Will
customer = person
customer = friend

Until I am told differently from my teacher, I will continue to use that wording.

As I explained last time I had this argument on here, I treat customers pretty darn good. I allow them to get away with stuff I wouldn't allow my closest friends to do. I give them my 100% knowing that 95% of them will leave me.

Now .. back on topic. Who has some good resources on pressure points? I was thinking of purchasing one of these: http://www.martialartshop.co.uk/images/newequip03/bobxl.jpg and painting all the points on it. I have a few charts but I think a 3D figure would be much better for visualization and practicing.

[David Jamieson]

fu pow- you're being fairly generous with that 5% of students stick around. In my experience, that number is high. lol.

maybe .05% will stick with a martial art throughout their liftetime and continue it as a life practice.

This is why you have 99.999% mediochre practicioners and once every decade you get 1 really good one. Even the greater percentage of teachers out there while good martial artists are not 'great' martial artists. Great martial artists are very few in number and many have been attributed with greatness that simply do not deserve that.

But, if someone walked into your school as a paying customer, you are certainly not gonna open the conversation with "you will likely quit inside of a year". :p

Now, Im sure most people who are enroled in a club on this board would indicate that there sifu is the best they'cve ever seen etc etc, only thing is, many are not careful to denote that their sifu is the only sifu who has invested any time in them whatsoever. Most people will not seek instruction from another sifu and in fact, we as martial artists have a terrible habit of limiting our own ability to experience because of outdated confucian etiqueete hanging over our heads with most of the training halls we happen into.

anyway, how come these SD threads always get the most posts? lol
You guys get a lot of free publicity through this site, you should all subscribe and start selling the mag in your dojos. :D

[themeecer]

maybe .05% will stick with a martial art throughout their liftetime and continue it as a life practice.
I agree with this number.

anyway, how come these SD threads always get the most posts? lol
You guys get a lot of free publicity through this site, you should all subscribe and start selling the mag in your dojos. :D
Heck, we sell almost everything else tigerclaw puts out. I would love to have enough resources to offer quality magazines in the school.

I don't know if I would call the publicity we get on here as helpful, though. :)

[David Jamieson]

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

Everytime your name is uttered it is heard.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Now .. back on topic. Who has some good resources on pressure points? I was thinking of purchasing one of these: http://www.martialartshop.co.uk/images/newequip03/bobxl.jpg and painting all the points on it. I have a few charts but I think a 3D figure would be much better for visualization and practicing.

I don't know how big you want but
http://buykungfu.com/tab1/store/category/5gad/Books_Charts_Models.html is a 3D model...maybe 1.5 feet

[themeecer]

I don't know how big you want but
http://buykungfu.com/tab1/store/category/5gad/Books_Charts_Models.html is a 3D model...maybe 1.5 feet
Yes, that one is nice. I bought my teacher that model. I was looking for something life size, in order to practice aiming at those points. Maybe I will have to go out and build my own version of the brass man.

[Judge Pen]

Edit: Sorry .. I was irate.

It's cool. I don't like the word customer as its easy to be misunderstood, but I knew what you meant. I should have taken the time to express that.

[themeecer]

It's cool. I don't like the word customer as its easy to be misunderstood, but I knew what you meant. I should have taken the time to express that.
Cool bro. :)

[MasterKiller]

So how many hand forms of a decent length (3-4 min ~100 movements) are required for 1st black?

None of my handsets are 3-4 minutes long. :eek:

CLF must be the Tae-Bo of CMA.

[GreenCloudCLF]

None of my handsets are 3-4 minutes long. :eek:

CLF must be the Tae-Bo of CMA.

Go sloooooooooooower!:eek:

[Studentoflife]

This is my first post, but I have read many of the posts dealing with other's opinions about SD. I have practiced SD for almost 2 years now under Elder Master Mullins and have heard all of the stories and history involved in it. I must admit I took them at face value, figuring there was no need to disbelieve any of them. Through reading the various posts and attempting to do my own research I have to admit I'm not convinced that everything is "true".
That being said I also have to say, It doesn't matter. :rolleyes: Shaolin-Do, through its techniques and training allow the individual to develope their own since of worth and that has nothing to do with weather or not the "history" is accurate or pure fiction. Isn't the Bible full of stories and parables that many claim to be absolute truth and others say can be proven false? Does that mean that Christianity or Judaism is an unfit religion or that nothing can be gained by practicing it? I would hope the answer is no.
The fact is SD is a Martial Art. I feel the purpose of MA is to learn one's self. Learn your weaknesses and your strengths. Not just in fighting, but also in character. If believing in a history helps in that, than so be it, but the emphasis should be on how the training matures you and strengthens your character. There is on doubt that the training and discipline it takes to master any MA has the potential to bring out the best in you. Remember Martial Arts, any type, is just that an ART. Art is not science. It is not history. Like all other arts, it is how you interpret it and use it in your own style, which is what it must adventually become to be a true master. Your style. It doesn't matter where it came from, or how true it's lineage is. Even CMA had it's origins somewhere else and developed from the students who learned it all the way down to the various forms and traditions taught now. All the other stuff which is argued about and debated has nothing to do with the real question. How do you use the art to make you a warrior in life and face the challenges life offers you physcially, mentally and spiritually?:D

[Judge Pen]

Good post. Thanks for sharing. We probably know each other (or know of each other). PM me if you don't mind.

[tree beard]

and you guys kept talking...

let me stick my thoughts in here. first, it is quite pleasing to hear that a student of 2 years is quick to defend. you sound like a keeper.
second, at my husband's school, we never call anyone "customers" or anything of the sort. not that it isn't an effective form of motivation in meecer's school, it apparently is. at our school, we just try and say "glad you could make it, see you wednesday", that sort of thing. and when a student falls absent, sometimes we call or run into them and say "hey, we've missed you at class, is everything ok". (geez, that kindof makes us sound like a bunch of fairies, but oh well, we're just nice like that) we don't do this for marketing or reputation or anything, we just do it cause we are a kind people (sometimes).
third, for my own understanding, i have always referred to our ranking as follows... everything that i learn before black belt is my alphabet and i will use it to learn to speak the language of shao-lin do.

[Shaolindynasty]

It really isn't an issue of factual history. No history is 100% accurate.

I think the reactions sd and sin the get are caused by people questioning the motives behind his "stories". The student sifu relationship is built around a mutual trust. The sifu has to trust the student enough to teach him without holding back. The student needs to be able to fully trust the sifu inorder to devote himself to the practice. If your sifu lies to you about one thing such as history, how can you be sure he is truthful when he's teaching you other things?

If he isn't truthful with his history then maybe he isn't truthful with his technique. If he is twisting fact to suit him shouldn't that ring a bell? If your sifu manipulates others, why do you think he wouldn't manipulate you?

The above isn't just true for SD either.

[Judge Pen]

Sure. But where does it start? If my teacher tells me the history because that's the way it was told to him, does that mean I can't trust my teacher? If he teaches me technique that I feel comfortable with applying, then why put up a fuss about a story? I trust him. We have to know where the untruths started. What if these stories didn't originate with Sin The? What if they originated with Sin The's teacher? Should we not trust Sin The? What if the techniques seems to make sense even if a story doesn't?

We also have to consider the culture. I've been told on good authority that it is common culture to pass tall tales off as truth in certain southeast asian countries--especially when it comes to martial arts history and lineage. There's been no proof that this cultural phenomenon also affects the teaching of marital technique.

I mean I see your point. But people don't stick with an art (such as SD) because they like the sotries. They stick with it because they feel comfortable with the teacher and with the techniques being taught.

I don't know what is true in martial history and what isn't. I know what I believe, and that doesn't mean a hill of beans to anyone other than me (nor should it).

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't think you do see my point. We are completely agreeing. If you can trust your sifu then good stay there that coupled with effective technique are way more important than history. I honestly only have a passing interest in CMA history, the practice is always #1.

but.......

Let's pose a hypothetical question(I'm not saying Sin The did these things ). Let's say you had a sifu and found out he was purposely making up stories in an effort to attract more students. Let's say he also used those stories to expand his curriculum and retain those students. Let's say he told you to your face it was all made up BS to get you and the others to join. Then he says "now I'll teach you the real stuff"

Could you really trust him after that?

I definatly couldn't. The practice is #1, if I Knew my sifu was purposly leading me astray in ways that seemed to be $$$ related or even ego related then my practice with him would definatly be compramised. I'd have to excuse myself from the school.

[Golden Tiger]

[QUOTE=Shaolindynasty

Let's pose a hypothetical question(I'm not saying Sin The did these things ). Let's say you had a sifu and found out he was purposely making up stories in an effort to attract more students. Let's say he also used those stories to expand his curriculum and retain those students. Let's say he told you to your face it was all made up BS to get you and the others to join. Then he says "now I'll teach you the real stuff"

Could you really trust him after that?
[/QUOTE]

I guess I will chime in on this also (just because work is slow at the moment). Oh never mind...

[Judge Pen]

Maybe I can't be objective enough. If I had a sifu that made up stories to bring in students and pulled in other material to keep them (is that the hypothetical?), and I found all of this out and he said--"now I'm going to teach you the REAL stuff"; then yes, I would not trust him or what he was going to teach me (even if I could apply the other stuff that was taught in the past). But I don't think this hypothetical accurately outlines my current situation as a student of SD.

[Shaolindynasty]

Didn't say it did out line your experiences at SD. I do think it is how allot of non SD students see it.

If you are satisfied stick with it

[Judge Pen]

I do think it is how allot of non SD students see it.

Yep. That's how a lot of people see it. I don't think its accurate, but I'm not exactly objective anymore.

[Golden Tiger]

Didn't say it did out line your experiences at SD. I do think it is how allot of non SD students see it.




I am sure that is how most non-(filling in the system) students see other ones. But is that was the case (with SD or any other schools) how long do you thing that the wool would be pulled over the students eyes?

Just for giggles, I looked on the SD masters page. There are 34 people listed there along with how long they have been taking SD. Of those 34, the avg number of years was 28 years! ( low being 17 and high being 39) Now I wonder how many other schools could boast those kind of numbers? Most schools keep one or two die hard students for a few years but how many of them could keep them for as long as some have been with SD?

Master Sin must be doing something right (cause I know most of the people on the page and they are not ones to put up with BS very long at all).

[johnyk]

Lets get real!!

I've been training in the MA for over 30 years. I can create a SECRET form in about 10 mins depending upon how long i want to make it!

Think about it! All forms were once created by someone. They become traditional after they have been practiced for a few generations!

The reason no one will ever learn all his forms is cuz he makes them up as he goes along. Then he can charge for seminars whenever he needs some cash!. There is nothing magical about a form. It is merely specific movements placed together in varying combinations. Anyone can do it with a little experience and practice!

Interesting point, may be valid.

[neilhytholt]

Interesting point, may be valid.

It doesn't matter if he makes them up or not -- why do you need so many forms? Do you actually know how to use the forms in fighting? If somebody attacked you, can you defend yourself with the forms?

In about 99% of the cases people who study martial arts forms can't apply the forms in actual fighting beyond a few punches and kicks.

So people who collect all these forms are just giving this guy cash and wasting their times. What's the point if you can't use them?

[Judge Pen]

So people who collect all these forms are just giving this guy cash and wasting their times. What's the point if you can't use them?

Sure, but isn't that true for most MA with lots of forms in their system? If you’re just pointing the finger at SD, then I think you're being a bit presumptuous that we can't apply our forms. I know several that can and several that can't. Depends on the effort they are putting into their practice.

[The Willow Sword]

i sign back on and LO and BEHOLD. This has spilled over into the Kung-Fu Section.

GENE? DUDE? I whole heartedly support some CENSORSHIP HERE and i would DELETE this thread and put out a sticky that in the future that ANY SD threads will be deleted as to allow for more rational and "THOUGHT" based threads concerning martial arts OTHER than SD.

GET THESE CULT RADICALS OFF THE BOARDS MAN. :eek:


Peace Love and daisies and dog food;) ,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

GET THESE CULT RADICALS OFF THE BOARDS MAN.

I'm a cult radical now? :rolleyes:

[The Willow Sword]

Especially You Jp;)

[neilhytholt]

Sure, but isn't that true for most MA with lots of forms in their system? If you’re just pointing the finger at SD, then I think you're being a bit presumptuous that we can't apply our forms. I know several that can and several that can't. Depends on the effort they are putting into their practice.

No, I'm not just pointing the finger at SD. SD seems to have more forms in their system than any other I've ever heard about, though.

I mean, if that's people's thing, learning a ton of forms, then I guess that's up to them, right? I just don't see the point because it takes a ton of time, and I really doubt that any person even if they practiced full time could learn to fight well with more than 20 forms.

[Crushing Fist]

I just can't take it anymore...

who fights with forms?


anyone?



people fight with techniques

techniques are contained within forms

of course no one can fight effectively with every single technique they have ever seen, but the more techniques you practice the more you will assimilate.

forms teach you how to move, sparring teaches you how to fight.

if you have 5 forms and you practice those forms exclusively for your whole life you should be pretty good with them... but where is the challenge? once your body gets used to moving that way its just repetitive and stale. learning to move in new and different ways keeps you engaged and challenged.

so whats wrong with forms?

nothing