Using Kung Fu Against Boxing

[superman859]

I have practiced Kung Fu and other more traditional martial arts. I recently joined a Mixed Martial Arts Club however at my school. Mostly they seem to work on western boxing/muy thai and wrestling.

We have done some sparring and I am finding it pretty difficult to use my knowledge against the people who are using boxing. I end up getting punched in the face a lot. The jabs just come fast and they are trying to get me to change my style to be more like boxing but I would prefer not to if there is a better way. I am not good at boxing so sparring against someone who is boxing is hard. On top of that, the gloves we have been using are normal boxing gloves so you can't really grab anything.

Does anyone have any advice for sparring against boxing? I have noticed that kicks would be good since they are only guarding their face, but at the club they havent let us use kicks when sparring yet, kind of a disappointment.

[David Jamieson]

Don't be linear in your footwork. If you move straight back while someone is moving in on you, you are giving it to them like a cheap ho.

If you change direction, the attacker must also do so, in any event, the attacker will have to use more energy than you to continue to follow and commit to his attack, in the meantime, you have ample sidedoor opportunities.

Keep your guard up, learn how to tighten your sh1t up and cover. There are very simple techniques to cover against boxers strikes. They're in your kungfu most likely, it's possible you are using gross textbook motions instead of realistic shorter structures, this is a failing of many kungfu fighters, I regard it as a failing of a school to not introduce the concepts of the changing shape, tightening up and so on.

Watch boxers, see how the defend against incoming from other boxers, learn from this. See where those things are in your own kungfu and make the adjustments. Drill drill drill and drill alive with a partner who will commit in their attacks to give you an idea of how to make the adjustments.

If they're rolling, get to rolling. This area is teh bane of many a kungfu player. Often times large amounts of energy are expended needlessly on the mat by the kungfu fighter simply because they don't understand the forces at play in a clinch or on the ground. NOt saying all KF peeps are like this, in fact many are awakening to the three ranges and incorporating them back into their overall kungfu. It's important to know your enemy (opponent) and to know their strategy, tactics, strengths and weaknesses.

If you stay in the bubble of only what you have been told, then that is where you will remain. You are at the point perhaps where it is time for you to take ownership and responsibility for the realistic development of your personal kungfu.

[Judge Pen]

Does anyone have any advice for sparring against boxing? I have noticed that kicks would be good since they are only guarding their face, but at the club they havent let us use kicks when sparring yet, kind of a disappointment.

That's part of the problem, isn't it? You aresenal is limited, but there's really isn't as much. My advice is keep your guard up more and look for kung fu techniques that will work. YOu will not be able to out-punch a boxer but you will learn a lot obout their timing, footwork and angles which will serve you well when you are allowed to use all of your kung fu techniques.

[EarthDragon]

david J, again you beat me to the punch. I was going to also say footwork. in 8 step we move circles around (step up and step back) type fighters.

by the time they turn to catch up we have struck and moved angular or circular and struck again.

Not many systems teach such elaboarte foot work as 8 step but you can try incompassing some Ba Gua or Aikido circles.

Play your game dont follow the boxers jaunt make him follows yours. boxing is very limited kung fu is not.

[MasterKiller]

Well, I am a Kung Fu guy who currently trains at an MMA club, so I can give you a little advice in that regard:

Learn to shield instead of trying to intercept the punches. Especially in Long Fist, it's common practice to hook/deflect/grab the incoming punch. These techniques have a time and a place (wearing boxing gloves also makes them very hard to do), but they also make it easier for someone to sneak a quick jab through. Shielding will allow you to absorb the hit and put you in a good position to counter.

Also, I use a front heel kick (teep) to keep them from closing the gap. I mainly kick the lead thigh or stomach, but occassionally I can land one high into their chest. It is pretty successful. That kick is my bread-and-butter, and I learned it in kung fu. ;)

One thing you SHOULD have that boxers don't is some throws. If they do close the gap and get in tight, use the opportunity to clinch up and try to throw him.

Kung fu and MMA = Kick, Punch, Throw, Lock (submit). Use them all.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's something for you to consider, supe...(from a thread I started some time ago entitled WING CHUN BOXING):

"I've been using certain techniques and principles that resemble boxing somewhat...and yet are still very much Wing Chun in orientation.

It concerns NOT trying to simply attack the "center" of the opponent. But rather to also look upon both of his arms (particularly near his shoulders)... as vertical centerlines running down toward his legs.

I'm in a front stance - whatever front stance. Could be a left front stance vs. his left front; or it could be my left front stance vs. his right front.

Either way, my two arms are matched up against his (ie.- my left arm vs. his right arm) - and it is fighting his right arm for CONTROL of the vertical centerline that I just described...while my right arm is fighting his left arm for control of the other vertical centerline.

(All of this is being done IN ADDITION TO my main centerline that runs down the actual center of my body).

So at the moment I'm talking about 3 centerlines...with special emphasis on the two outside lines.

It's as if I'm dueling with a foil in each hand against his two foils simultaneously.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'LL CONSTANTLY JUST CHASE HIS HANDS...

On the contrary, - suppose he just dropped his right hand lead from his guard position right down to his side - I wouldn't chase his arm/hand - I would simply punch into the line that is now completely open with my left fist (but I'd probably throw a low to medium height punch - not a head shot - so as to maintain control (and occupy) the line if he decided to immediately come back up again with that hand that he dropped.

Furthermore...I would NOT be moving toward him with my MAIN centerline directly facing his center...I would be in a more basic boxing type pose - which means that - in the example I just gave of him dropping his right arm down - and I was in a left lead stance...the left punch I would throw would look like a boxer's stiff straight lead - with body torgue and with the punch being thrown horizontally. (Not the vertical wing chun sun punch).

Because I'm assuming that the distance would require this type of punch (for extra reach). I'm not assuming that I'm already in a very close limb-to-limb contact or trapping range.

Which is a whole other issue - distancing and footwork from a longer than typical "wing chun" range. What's needed is a more up-on-your-toes type of footwork coupled with low kicks in order to bridge the gap quickly.

So I'm using a long range "wing chun boxing" type strategy as a means to get closer to the inside close quarter position - while hopefully also landing punches (and possibly kicks)....as well as maybe beginning to trap, pin, pak, or lop an arm....but most of all - by CONTROLLING, OCCUPYING, AND GOING FORWARD on a "centerline".

In other words - I'm establishing a bridge through the use of longer range boxing technique - BUT GUIDED BY WING CHUN CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES.

(Or central line principles...take your pick. But's it's still Wing Chun).

And yet it's also something a little different than what some may have considered Wing Chun to be in the past.

One more note:

I will also oftentimes purposely throw horizontal longer range boxing type punches into the very lines that he may be covering with a tight defense so as to purposely create a bridge (and a "centerline") to try and take control of. I'm forcing his arms to either engage mine or run the risk of taking a hit to the body or head - because the punches are directly on one (or both) of these outside centerlines - and are therefore the shortest distance between the proverbial two points."

[MasterKiller]

Boxing is for sport, CMA is for killing.

So which one is your group doing when they fight San Shou at Taiji Legacy? Sport or Murder?

[superman859]

Do these techniques work well on bigger guys as well? Or is there anything else that I should try to use to my advantage against them? One of the main guys I interact with at the club is pretty big (not fat...big just tall and big, long arms, everything), while I am normal height, kinda skinny. He would just throw some punches and would be hitting me and I couldn't even reach him yet with jabs or anything. My stance was pretty much shoulder forward (for example, left) but that would just put my right hand even further away so it was a lot harder to even use. They are trying to have me turn more so I just have a foot back and im centered on his body (not any shoulder forward..just normal) and stick both hands up in front (pretty much like boxing), but I find it so awkward for my hands and also feel like there isn't as much power when I actually do hit.

[MasterKiller]

They are trying to have me turn more so I just have a foot back and im centered on his body (not any shoulder forward..just normal) and stick both hands up in front (pretty much like boxing), but I find it so awkward for my hands and also feel like there isn't as much power when I actually do hit.

Power comes from the waist, right? You shouldn't need to be able to extend your arms out in order to generate power. You probably need to get your hips into your punches if you don't feel like you are hitting hard enough.

With your hands up, you can guard the face with your hands and use your elbows to protect your ribs and stomach. Use your knees and shins (Crane stance) to protect against kicks.

Putting your hands up to shield also allows you to move into throwing/clinching range against a larger guy without taking serious blows. Shield up, take a marching step in, and start working from inside his arm range.

Plus, that side stance is going to get you single-legged real quick. You need to adjust your stance more forward (like they are telling you) so you can aviod the wrestling take-down attempts, by either sprawling, cross-facing, or pushing down on the head, or a combination of all three.

You're paying to be coached, so listen to the coach. Learn what he is telling you, then try to apply your kung fu in that context.

[gfx]

Sport is the training for killing.

In front of Muah Thai, BJJ, MMA, Boxing, CMA image is just too "soft". We need to give CMA a much more macho image so "CMA is for killing" will be proper for that logo.

If you beat me with open hands, I'll come back with knife. If you beat me with knife, I'll come back with gun. If you still beat me, I'll find a rope and a quite place to hang myself. My son and my grandson will repeat what I just did. We CMA guys don't do sport and we don't play fair. Ground fight? We all got spikes rings on. Do you guys still want to play? So do you non-CMA guys still want to mess with our CMA guys?

I kind like this kind of new macho CMA image.

No, it's called being a thug.
Please don't poison CMA with this kind of thinking.

If all the above arts can be seen as "Macho" without deliberatly resort to your suggested actions, why can't you do the same? Or must you resort to intimidation like a school yard bully?

Grow up.

[lkfmdc]

I have practiced Kung Fu and other more traditional martial arts. I recently joined a Mixed Martial Arts Club however at my school. Mostly they seem to work on western boxing/muy thai and wrestling.

We have done some sparring and I am finding it pretty difficult to use my knowledge against the people who are using boxing. I end up getting punched in the face a lot. The jabs just come fast and they are trying to get me to change my style to be more like boxing but I would prefer not to if there is a better way. I am not good at boxing so sparring against someone who is boxing is hard. On top of that, the gloves we have been using are normal boxing gloves so you can't really grab anything.

Does anyone have any advice for sparring against boxing? I have noticed that kicks would be good since they are only guarding their face, but at the club they havent let us use kicks when sparring yet, kind of a disappointment.

Understand me clearly, I don't take issue with the poster, but I HATE posts like this, and threads like this make me sick....

1. " I am finding it pretty difficult to use my knowledge against the people who are using boxing"

Funny, you always hear about how boxing is "just a sport" and how advanced Chinese martial arts are, blah blah, yet when sparring with a boxer, how many TCMA students find themselves lost

What boxing has over TCMA the way it is done these days, is BASICS. The don't try to teach you the ultra-secret flying weasal defense. They teach you to cover up, then they teach you ANGLES...

If TCMA students weren't so hard headed, they'd box, learn the angles of attack and then maybe figure out what works and what simply doesn't

2. " they are trying to get me to change my style to be more like boxing but I would prefer not to"

There are no legitimate Chinese martial arts that do not have straight punches, hooking punches and uppercuts

Let me repeat


There are no legitimate Chinese martial arts that do not have straight punches, hooking punches and uppercuts

Stop thinking of it as "evil boxing" and practice your basics dude!!!! That is really what it comes down to. If you can't straight punch, forget the f-in eagle claw

3. "the gloves we have been using are normal boxing gloves so you can't really grab anything"

FALSE BELIEF NUMERO UNO!!!

You think without gloves you are gonna reach out and catch a punch??

This bull.....uh.... mistaken belief comes from generations of not sparring against a real human being with a pulse

Against a real strike, WRAP YOUR ARM. That is the only tried and true, PROVEN method of grappling a striker. "Youknowwho" will be here in a minute, if not already, to talk about that !!!!

4. "I have noticed that kicks would be good since they are only guarding their face"

You "noticed"? No, you ASSUME..... think about this for one minute, when you are kicking you are standing on ONE LEG. the boxer is on two feet, rooted, and throwing punches. If you don't learn how to defend properly, and set up your kicks, just throwing a kick out there and you're gonna eat some leather (or poly depending upon the gloves he's wearing)

[lkfmdc]

- Chain kicks
- Inside arm wrapping
- Ouside arm jaming
- Head lock
- Knee seizing
- Run him down



See. he was already here!

[Indestructible]

If you are going to fight within the confines of a boxing ruleset, then you should learn how to box.

[SiuHung]

Kung fu vs. Boxing=footwork, footwork, footwork, and strategy.

lkfmdc is right on when he says that CMA' use basically the same punches. Study the basic footwork patterns of your style and begin to work them against basic boxing combinations, which by now you've been exposed to. Standing toe to toe, or staying linear will get your face smashed. This is the sad result of learning kung fu from too many generations of forms masters.:(

[bodhitree]

I am also a TCMA guy who is now at a mma gym. I agree with a lot of whats been said, basics, footwork, streight punches. So far, the only things i've been able to use in my mma game from my tcma have been a few takedowns. I'm sure there will be a place for some more. MMA is using a resisting opponent trying to win, a lot of my prior training was someone throwing a slow punch and leaving it there. what sounds great in theory may not be so great in practice. Basics basics basics!

[themeecer]

No, it's called being a thug.
Please don't poison CMA with this kind of thinking.

If all the above arts can be seen as "Macho" without deliberatly resort to your suggested actions, why can't you do the same? Or must you resort to intimidation like a school yard bully?

Grow up.
Poison CMA?!?! When did fighting all of a sudden become a thing of honor? I have never bought into that mindset. There is nothing honorable about two guys trying to beat each other's brains out. If someone is trying to hurt me, I am going to do everything in my power to prevent that. There are two types of fights .. the ones you fight fair in and the ones you win. Personally I prefer to not fight at all and try to be friends with everyone. But when push comes to shove my goal is to cause the most amount of damage in the smallest amount of time. And then get out of there.

[TenTigers]

ok, to go along with RUNDMC (IKFMDC ;-) don't do boxing-do only Kung-Fu.
don't throw jabs-use jik kuen
don't throw crosses, use ping choy
don't throw hooks, use sow choy
don't throw uppercuts, use pow choy
ok, I was basically kidding, but you see what's being said.
The other thing-we have had great success using chain punches, been,sow,gwa,kup on boxers. Don't fight their fight-fight YOUR fight
These strikes do very well, because it is outside their experience. Kind of like outside their belief system. They have no clue how to handle it. And when they cover, kup choy

[viper]

Ive had to deal with alot of boxers and at training we put on the gloves to understand boxing with gloves, gloves suck bad. I learnt to cover quick and i found its easier dont play there game pressure them move in feel dont think. Think when you have time timing and distance are important. Mess up there balance. Dont look for techniques theyl appear on there own. Pressure them keep on doin it hit and fade or stay in close not in the middle thats bad.Keep working at it itl come get a little dirty its the way.

[bing bang pow]

I am always trying to get my students to spar with much better fighters. That is how you get better. I havn't read all the responces, but the ones that I did read seemed great. You are lucky to be able to fight these people in the safety of the gym. learn all you can and keep aqn open mind.

[IronFist]

Getting punched too much? Use crazy monkey boxing (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6675&highlight=Crazy+boxing). It was developed(?) and promoted by the Straight Blast Gym International guys, and it's awesome. Despite the name, SBGi is not WC or JKD.

It's basically a modified version of Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style. I became a better fighter in 2 months at SBGi than in all my other MA training up to that point.

[MasterKiller]

Getting punched too much? Use crazy monkey boxing (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6675&highlight=Crazy+boxing). It was developed(?) and promoted by the Straight Blast Gym International guys, and it's awesome. Despite the name, SBGi is not WC or JKD.

It's basically a modified version of Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style. I became a better fighter in 2 months at SBGi than in all my other MA training up to that point.

That looks like it works great, until someone starts kicking you...

[IronFist]

That looks like it works great, until someone starts kicking you...

That's what your legs are for :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

might have already been said, but id go for more body shots.

many boxers are head hunters and they seem to guard their head better than their body. course im short so i like body shots regardless.

[Jarhead101]

No, it's called being a thug.
Please don't poison CMA with this kind of thinking.

If all the above arts can be seen as "Macho" without deliberatly resort to your suggested actions, why can't you do the same? Or must you resort to intimidation like a school yard bully?

Grow up.

What the heck is this??? The ONLY reason I practice martial arts is for hurting the other guy. Hurting them BAD. I'm not a Shaolin priest, and I don't do tai chi :)

CMA is for mutilating, too :D

[bamboo_ leaf]

jarhead

Everyone wants to play until they get hurt, ask some of the guys in the hosp, back from the sand box.

[Dim Wit Mak]

There is a lot of great advice here, and I don't have a lot to add to it. My only observations are that I studied a style of kenpo that included boxing and grappling to add it to my study of kung fu. With traditional boxing gloves worn, this takes away much of the kung fu arsenal which uses grabs, clawing, panther fist, and snake mouth techniques. In a street situation, the hands turned backwards, open and in a boxing stance is the way to go. You can also put your hands in the tiger claw formation, and defend the same upper body areas. This allows you to defend against punches and also use kung fu techniques. The old cliche of never boxing a boxer, never trying to outkick a kicker, and never grapple with a grappler has a lot of truth. Quick kicks (kung fu) to keep out of boxing range can be used. Stay away from the opponent's power side with good footwork. A jab can really hurt, but a cross that connects with power can be devestating. Try to get into a clinch. With no referee to break it up, you can possibly trap and execute a quick palm heel or other technique. A good boxer is definately a formidable opponent.

[SimonM]

If they're rolling, get to rolling. This area is teh bane of many a kungfu player. Often times large amounts of energy are expended needlessly on the mat by the kungfu fighter simply because they don't understand the forces at play in a clinch or on the ground. NOt saying all KF peeps are like this, in fact many are awakening to the three ranges and incorporating them back into their overall kungfu. It's important to know your enemy (opponent) and to know their strategy, tactics, strengths and weaknesses.

If you stay in the bubble of only what you have been told, then that is where you will remain. You are at the point perhaps where it is time for you to take ownership and responsibility for the realistic development of your personal kungfu.

Thank you David for including that caviat. Some of us Gong Fu Peeps do like the ground almost as much as the JJ guys. I agree. Adapt, learn. If another style (be it boxing, JJ, MT, whatever) has a good technique steal it and add it to your own style. It doesn't take away from the fact that you do Gong Fu. Gong Fu players have been trading techniques and improving on their arts for hundreds of years. It's only been in the last hundred that a lot of people forgot to do this. Hell! Part of the reason that traditional Shaolin got so good is that it was a locus where masters from all over came to swap techniques. There is nothing wrong with doing this.

[hitman142002]

Try thinking of yourself as a white belt again- like you have never trained in anything. Learn what these guys are using against you. Basically, learn to punch. There are a lot worse things you can do than learning how to punch like a boxer. Learn that footowork, train on your blocking and avoiding ability.
Since you said that you are not allowed to use kicks yet, I am assuming that at some point you will be able to kick. When you reach that point, things should change drastically. Right now, you are in "their world." You are fighting them on their ground- in their comfort zone if you will.
Once some kicking happens, you should be able to start landing some fast kicks to the midsection- they will PROBABLY be guarding their head a lot like they are used to. Kicks to the legs- if allowed- will be a good thing for you as well. Basically, these boxers will not be used to guarding themselves as low as what you will be attacking. You will have them a lot more on your level and in your comfort zone. Eventually, they will become aware of their ribs and legs hurting and they will drop the style of guarding their heads with both hands.
Before I start getting WAY too specific and speculative, just learn what they are teaching you RIGHT NOW. You have obviously found a weak spot in your training or in your personal ability. Take this opportunity to fix that before you move on to your comfort zone.

[SimonM]

might have already been said, but id go for more body shots.

many boxers are head hunters and they seem to guard their head better than their body. course im short so i like body shots regardless.


I'm a head hunter. I admit it. I just find that punches to the head, throws where you are siezing around the neck and chokes are high percentage techniques. And being a power guy I can eventually get some shots through. I get a kick out of body fighters who try to defeat me without targeting my head. I have some extra padding combined with some, limited, iron thread training. Sometimes folks have tried to side-kick me in the stomach and ended up on their @55e5 when they connected.

[Draconus]

Getting punched too much? Use crazy monkey boxing (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6675&highlight=Crazy+boxing). It was developed(?) and promoted by the Straight Blast Gym International guys, and it's awesome. Despite the name, SBGi is not WC or JKD.

It's basically a modified version of Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style. I became a better fighter in 2 months at SBGi than in all my other MA training up to that point.

IronFist,

Thanks for the information, crazy monkey boxing, sounds good.

[Draconus]

Originally Posted by gfx
No, it's called being a thug.
Please don't poison CMA with this kind of thinking.

If all the above arts can be seen as "Macho" without deliberatly resort to your suggested actions, why can't you do the same? Or must you resort to intimidation like a school yard bully?

Grow up.



What the heck is this??? The ONLY reason I practice martial arts is for hurting the other guy. Hurting them BAD. I'm not a Shaolin priest, and I don't do tai chi :)

CMA is for mutilating, too :D

Maybe you should do Tai Chi, or possible you could re-visit you attitude.

[Draconus]

BeLikeWater " Rule 1: Never tell others everything you know ".

You already know the answer to that.

:p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Sometimes folks have tried to side-kick me in the stomach and ended up on their @55e5 when they connected.

i bet they are raising up too high when they kick. to each their own but i think its a real bad idea to raise up (some people raise clear up on their toes) when you kick. falling on your ass is just one thing that could go wrong.

im not saying i could harm your iron belly or anything. im sure teh power would ownzors me.

[Wong Fei Hong]

I think ikdkfmc post hit the nail on the head, all ive got to add is i believe the one and only simple reason that kf guys have trouble sparring boxers is because WE ARE TAUGHT TO CHASE HANDS , THEY ARE TAUGHT TO CHASE HEADS.

You think about it 90% of kf takes time with block this arm and block this arm and then block the other arm again, oh and look theres something else we can block, **** thats john holmes were fighting.

Wheras what does a boxer do oh look theres an arm lets hit him in teh head, theres another arm coming , i know lets hit him in the head again.

i see a pattern emerging here

does that make sense ?

[Sifu Darkfist]

ok im going out to open the door for a minute, ahh its open. Now the highest level of Praying mantis can and does exist separate of all blocking. My students and i actually find it refreshing to spar boxers. our punches are much more direct and straight for more than one reason (yes we have converted boxers among us).
Not to say that many boxers lack skill there are plenty of good ones. however, they lack stability on their feet to withstand barrage and they definetly cannot withstand throws from their existing foot platform.

You should never watch limbs ever you should look right at their shoulders keeping an open field of vision, then dont block move the head place our strikes in the center at a high rate of speed, if the center door is closed step 45 degrees to your comfort side moving in with the same high speed straight up the middlewith direct straight shots always keeping feet planted shifting the entire body not leaning forward or back.

anyway if you block you waste a move. Strike instead or better yet strike inside the strike deflecting with the striking limb.

Just a mantis perspective take it or leave it

[Ray Pina]

What type of blocking are you using .... side to side, wax on wax off type? This could get you lit up because it requires timing and is easy to fake.

Try holding your gloves together, at about chin level, and hiding behind it as a shield. If someone jabs, charge in and jam it, follow it back.

Of course they have another hand or can circle the jab around. You keep thise gloves together in front of your face! Use your elbows to block rounded strikes. Hide behind your forearms parrellel to each other || or even better yet, cross them X ... one supporting the other.

Jam them, then, if you have Kung Fu training, beat them to the punch by not having to pull back to load your shot. SHoot it from where it is.

[Wong Fei Hong]

youknowwho, you kind of proved my point there, what i meant by chasing arms is what you said , ie chase elbows or shoulders or whatever, whilst a boxer is constantly going for your head, you re taking time to mess about with his arms , so its like your playing follow the leader.
Not you specifically by you i mean a cma practitioner.

[SimonM]

i bet they are raising up too high when they kick. to each their own but i think its a real bad idea to raise up (some people raise clear up on their toes) when you kick. falling on your ass is just one thing that could go wrong.

im not saying i could harm your iron belly or anything. im sure teh power would ownzors me.

I am not saying I have an invulnerable belly. However my ability to soak up body shots has been commented on by several people in the past. If you ever want to test it out for yourself GDA I make no secret where I live and I love visitors so come on by some time. :D

If you pay for the plane ticket I'll pay for the beers.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

where do you live? if its nice and your gonna pay for me to come kick you in the stomach im fu ckin in. sh it i wish more people would pay for me to kick them in the stomach. that would completely ****in rule. i like amber bock.

you dont get to hit back though. the whole hitting thing is one sided. this side. if you try to hit me back im going to run like hell and then post on the forums that i completely whooped your ass. if you have video to prove otherwise ill still deny it.

i'm no hard ass .... if you wanted take me down i bet you could make it happen. but i wouldnt just fall over kicking you. that's not how i roll.

[edit] god ****it ... now i see you said i had to pay my way. **** that ... im not going to buy a plane ticket to go kick some guy in teh stomach who will probably just whoop my ass afterwards. ill just go kick one of my co workes in the stomach instead. when they look up at me and ask why ill tell them its your fault and spit on them.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

and i stand by my rasing up too high comment.

bad timing by lighter guys might be a problem, but id bet 50 bucks that 9 out of 10 people who fall over kicking anything are up on their toes (or close to it).

if you dont put yourself up on a poll or try to plant a kick on a guy 3 times your size who's barreling in on you there's a real good chance you wont fall over.

[SimonM]

ROTFL GDA.

I nominate you as funniest man on KFM.com!

Anyways for the record I live at the following location:

First Appartment block on the right, Eastern most door, second floor, appartment on the left, West campus, Luliang Higher College, Lishi, Shanxi, PRC. If anyone wants to visit me than they can PM and I will give them EMail or Telephone contact information.

[IronFist]

Yeah, GDA, that was hilarious. :D

[FatherDog]

- BJJ guys shoot to your leg without touching your arm.
- Boxers hit to your head without touching your arm.
- Muah Thai guys kick to your head without touching your arm.
- CMA guys touch your arm, wrap it, and then take you down.

That's the main style difference.

Foreign MA is like the sword fight, you hope your sword is faster than mine. You may chop my head off but at the same time I may chop your leg off.

CMA is like two swords touching on each other. You only attack when you feel that your opponent's sword is no threaten to you. You press his sword under yours. You slide your sword along his sword and then cut him.

The problem is, how do you do this to someone that's not CMA, and has no intention of letting you touch their arm? The boxer that keeps his hands close in, throws them out with punches and quickly retracts them? The wrestler that takes an outside shot? The Muay Thai guy who kicks to your head from too far away for you to reach his arm?

[greensage22]

funny thing i've found out fighting boxers, if you kick them in the junk they
are never ready to defend it. I got a golden glove contender 5 times in a row
below the belt. boxing is good but not against a flury of well placed kicks.

[David Jamieson]

ykw-

At what point do you stop using complaince drills to learn those techs?

there are much simpler ways of dealing with a boxer. And I have to agree with rays albeit short assessment of how.

cover, jam. counter. I personally wouldn't be able to find the time to do the wraps and trips and throws. Look how long that guy's gotta leave his arm hanging in the air to pull that off. adaptable or not, I am not certain that would work in live combatives.

[MasterKiller]

Look how long that guy's gotta leave his arm hanging in the air to pull that off. adaptable or not, I am not certain that would work in live combatives.
Not long at all. You can jam a hook and instantly wrap the arm. Add a marching step in to close the gap and you are in perfect position to throw.

[David Jamieson]

Not long at all. You can jam a hook and instantly wrap the arm. Add a marching step in to close the gap and you are in perfect position to throw.


mk, watch the vids john put up. in each one, the opponent is leaving his arm hanging for the wrap for an inordinately long time.

a boxers punch comes back faster than it goes out. Like a good kungfu punch will do as well.

I disagree that one can grab at a jab easily, or even a cross.

a hook, maybe in one smooth motion and using a destruction to dissolve the hook while you jam.

uppercut, not sure at all if it would have any merit.

all i'm saying is that the complaince training vid drills that john has shared with us don't deal with the jab as economically as rays comment as a solution.

[MasterKiller]

mk, watch the vids john put up. in each one, the opponent is leaving his arm hanging for the wrap for an inordinately long time.

a boxers punch comes back faster than it goes out. Like a good kungfu punch will do as well.

I disagree that one can grab at a jab easily, or even a cross.

a hook, maybe in one smooth motion and using a destruction to dissolve the hook while you jam.

uppercut, not sure at all if it would have any merit.

all i'm saying is that the complaince training vid drills that john has shared with us don't deal with the jab as economically as rays comment as a solution.
I'm not vouching for YKW one way or the other. I train with guys who also train Western boxing, and I have had good success with jamming hooks and wrapping up. I've also been able to hook/trap jabs and crosses as well, but with less success than against the hook.

Against the uppercut, I always, always shield.

Granted, these guys aren't pros...but then again, neither am I. ;)

[thothor]

You are being limited by rules.

Which is not a bad thing. It is done for safety.

I recall well when doing a certain new martial art and, when sparring, I was beaten soundly often. But I always got got sick of it and gave my opponent a swift kick in the knee. I was informed that it was against the rules. That is the problem with rules. Moves are illegal because they work too well. Do not overly worry yourself with that my friend.

Kicking them in the knee shortened them up everytime, I can assure you. they would say, that isn't fair, you might hurt me. I said, you punching me in the head all the time isn't fair either, it hurts me.

The point is, there are rules, for good reason. Without rules, you might hurt them. My orginal style included fishooks and other seriously nasty eagle claw techniques.

We can't do that stuff today. That doesn't mean those traditional schools that offer them have no value. Not at all. I am just saying that much of what u have learned is designed for life and death situations and so is useless in this world (not useless at at all but exploited by styles that teach the modern reality). Not true entirely. Useless is the wrong word.

Keep practising at your new school and one day, I promise you, you will respect the teaching from your first school.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Yeah, GDA, that was hilarious. :D

thanks guys. but the girl at work didnt think it was very funny. if the boss didnt really really hate her i would have gotten fired. i guess your not supposed to go around kicking and spitting on people at the office.



mk, watch the vids john put up. in each one, the opponent is leaving his arm hanging for the wrap for an inordinately long time.

a boxers punch comes back faster than it goes out. Like a good kungfu punch will do as well.


i hear where you are coming from dude, but they are also practicing. i've seen judo and juijitsu guys pull of way more complex throws than that from a punch. if you take their space and jam im not sure why the wrap and throw couldnt flow with it.

i'm not saying i'd make it my bread and butter if i werent a judo guy (which im not), but i definatley think its feasible. i'd bet it has a higher success percentage than a spinning back fist.

then again i suck at throws so what do i know.

which one is ynh anyway?

[htowndragon]

i have had to fight under boxing rules, and i found that the street guys i were boxing werent boxers, but flailers

they are **** hard to predict, and u WILL get hit by them. they throw hits that will really mess themselves up in a real fight, but with the 14 oz gloves, they dont care.

i almost KOed this kid 40 lbs heavier than me with a "striaght punch" from lohan chuan (gong style ba gua's mother form). preceding that was a long hook to the side of his face...(another lohan move) he DID knock me down 3 times in the round however...i recovered though, and two of those knock downs were me slipping on the pavement rather than him kncoking me down straight up.

i walked out of the fight with no injury

he had a swollen/cut eye

scoring the match, if u want to count the results like that, he won

but if u look at the fight as a whole, and the damage i did to him the last 30 seconds of the round after playing defense for a round and a half, i outfought him.

CMA does take some adjusting to fight in those rules, but it can happen. you probably wont fair TOO well but at least u wont get rocked too badly.

its probably easier to "box" a boxer than to "box" a flailer. any thoughts?

[Mr Punch]

Mad hurry, just skimread the thread so apologies if any of this has been said or whatever... just some random thoughts/pbservations.

1)
Don't be linear in your footwork. If you move straight back while someone is moving in on you, you are giving it to them like a cheap ho.

If you change direction, the attacker must also do so, in any event, the attacker will have to use more energy than you to continue to follow and commit to his attack, in the meantime, you have ample sidedoor opportunities.Good post about moving straight being useless, but the second half is not true. It is as tiring moving around to evade as it is moving around to chase. A bad boxer will continue swinging at the you as you move back and around and will soon tire themselves out. But, after maybe... er... three weeks or so most boxers have learnt not to do this, so they will 'hunt' you down... move forward quickly until they have the position to hit you. It is easier to change direction going forwards than backwards, plus in the ring you have to be aware of your parameters going backwards, and in the street you need to know you're not going to fall over too. So, just evading is not a good habit to get into.

However, as a drill, practise the exercise (out of class if they don't do it in) where your mate is trying to nail you and you are only using ducking, weaving and crowding to avoid his punches (tho taking a couple on your guard is acceptible too), and not hitting back. Boxers do this. you will learn how to use the boxinf footowrk and incorporate any useful fu footwork too.

The footwork thing is important, but if you're going for evasive footwork, make sure you learn to keep striking. I don't know your style but in a style with a good back weighted stance this can be used to your advantage as ling as you're not flat-footed about it, as you can keep punching hard 'jab-like' jik chun as you go back and boxers find it difficult to fathom your structure. Every time you step back, strike!

People like to say 'footwork footwork footwork' but footwork has a purpose! If you can't deliver the goods all the footwork in the world just makes you a good dancer! :D

So keep up the footowork drills but body unity (striking from that footwork) is more important in the end in boxing/fu/anything.

2)
]Keep your guard up, learn how to tighten your sh1t up and cover.Again good advice, but bear in mind that it7s a helluva lot easier to cover boxing style with boxing gloves than bare-knuckle/mma gloves. So, if you practise this way you're going to be nailed easily on the street/ring. It's invaluble practice but not at the expense of slipping, ducking, parrying, crowding, clinching and the rather nebulous 'footwork'.

3)
I was going to also say footwork. in 8 step we move circles around (step up and step back) type fighters.

by the time they turn to catch up we have struck and moved angular or circular and struck again. No offense, just a question, but how often have you tried this against boxers? In no way are boxers lumbering brutes.

This is a fallacy I remember from my aiki days. It takes longer to move your whole body round somebody else's than it does for a boxer to turn on a dime and get a punch or two in! So this 'by the time' crap is just that! every time I see the words 'by the time' associated with boxers, esp footwrok I have to laugh! They are some of the fastest fighters in the business!

Find one of the Fedor Emelianenko training vids on sherdog and watch him training his foowork, turning and punching, turning and punching, turnigng and punching. All boxers do this, and I have to say, I did it in my fu too.

Turning the corner and getting someone's back against someone with that kind of basic basic trainign is a whole different ballgame to cooperative/semi-resistant trainign drills in your kwoon.

Sorry if I seem harsh Earth Dragon, I have found your advice works against points fighters and some karate people. Boxers: no chance! Where do people get the idea that boxers are linear? They are very well trained in the short circles: in footowrk and handwork, and those are the most dangerous.

4)
Learn to shield instead of trying to intercept the punches. Especially in Long Fist, it's common practice to hook/deflect/grab the incoming punch. These techniques have a time and a place (wearing boxing gloves also makes them very hard to do), but they also make it easier for someone to sneak a quick jab through. Shielding will allow you to absorb the hit and put you in a good position to counter.True but again I say shielding is not necessarily a good habit either, as it makes it more difficult to see. This is where upper body movement comes in, and again body unity. If you can move (duck, weave, bob, whatever TF you wanna call it) you will be able to avoid quickly (of course practise this with parries and especially slipping) and strike from any angle. Of course, when you duck you should be as close as possible to keeping your eyes on your opponent but you will still lose your structure temporarily. BUT, make that 'weaker' structure part oif your system if it isnt already... in wing chun there's the third form, often said to be for 'mistakes'. In my mind you should be able to deliberately put yourself in that compromised position to gain a structural and positional advantage and make that duck part of the roll into the next power strike from whatever angle you like. I'm sure whatever your system is has the same principle. I've met it in many fu styles. It is maintaining your body unity in the pinch that is vital.


5) To everyone saying do this kick do that kick, he7s already said they're not working their kicks in the MMA trainign yet. The reason for this is just as David Ross said. If you can't get the basic footwork down to keep punching, slipping, dodging, punching, punching, covering, clinching, you try to kick and you're ****ed. They'll step in and chin you. Or they'll take your balance,. Or you'll fall over.

Superman123, keep practising the way they7re telling you so far with regards to the lack of kicks.

6)
You think without gloves you are gonna reach out and catch a punch??No but if you can parry it you can pak it, if you can pak it you can jum it, it you can pak it or jum it, you can grab it. My boxing oparry is pretty much the same as a pak, and a loose fingered pak is a strike, slip and grab at the same time.

And this is from sparring people with pulses! However, when you've grabbed the arm, a lot of fuers tend to think that's the end of it, when it's usually really easy to get out of a grab. Er... they just pull back, whilst punching/kciking you with a anotehr limb.

So, I'll agree with Ross that the wrapping is much more important (read = high % )

By all means keep practising your lop da, or lop fuk or whatevr but remember that until it gets really really good, against most live opponents your not going to turn the corner, your not going to break their structure and destroy them, but your/their hand will slip out, your hand will end up by your hip and you'Ll stand there with a surprised expression eating leather! A lop, or any follow-up to a grab is a more advanced technique than pulling your arm back and punching with the other!. And before Ross jumps on me for that, I don't mean it's going to beat the simple techs of the boxers, I mean it's harder so it's lower % than the simple techs of the boxers.

Wrapping is safer, easier, higher percentage and you can work it from the clinch or into the clinch which makes it good against MMA/boxers.

7
4....think about this for one minute, when you are kicking you are standing on ONE LEG. the boxer is on two feet, rooted, and throwing punches. If you don't learn how to defend properly, and set up your kicks, just throwing a kick out there and you're gonna eat some leather (or poly depending upon the gloves he's wearing)Just cos it's worth repeating.

[Mr Punch]

8
If you are going to fight within the confines of a boxing ruleset, then you should learn how to box.Good point. Learn the boxing first. Give it a good six months, then if you're feeling co(ky try to work in the fu. The parallels should come out and may be usable earlier.

TenTigers then gives the opposite opinion... but to me if you don't learn the boxing first, in the confines of an MMA class that's ostensibly boxing, you're ****ed. That's for the oft-stated reasons that most fuers don't practise live in the same way as boxers. So while TenTigers is correct, that's assuming you've had a teacher who uses sparring and full-speed resistance drills. If not, it7s no good.

9
might have already been said, but id go for more body shots.

many boxers are head hunters and they seem to guard their head better than their body. course im short so i like body shots regardless.Nah, most boxers are taught from day one to work combos high-low, low-high, high-high-low, high-low-high etc. Theres's no reason not to be able to do this with your fu and play the boxer at the same game. It's a good strategy: boxers use it cos it works. But if as GDA says, they always work high, go low, get them to cover low and go high etc.

10
Try holding your gloves together, at about chin level, and hiding behind it as a shield. If someone jabs, charge in and jam it, follow it back. This is advice from somebody who spars with no or MMA gloves, not boxing gloves. If you spar with boxing gloves and you follow this advice you'll learn just how stupid you look and feel to get knocked down with your own hands! I've seen so many beginners and fuers (oh yeah, and did I mention I may have done it myself a few times...?! ;) ) trying to keep this half-assed guard and the punch hits your gloves/arms and knocks your own fists straight back into your head. ****ing hilarious. The worst is when after the first shot you have that moment of smiling to yourself and surprise when you realise you've been hit with your own hands, and then you get hit again! :D

It's not bad advice, but sucks against 14-16 ozers.

[superman859]

That's actually how they want us to block. Hands up in front of eyes pretty much, and arms firm so when you do get hit your own hands don't hit you in the face. I find two problems with this. One, I hate my vision being crap, and it makes it so much harder to concentrate and see with big boxing gloves right in front of my face. I find that I have no peripheal (spelling) vision available to me like that...Secondly, I don't like being so firm in my arms. Sure, it makes me arms not hit me in the face, but at the same time, it seems to slow me down a lot, and also takes away from other techiniques, like stepping to the side or back or whatever and using your arm to sneak around the other way under his and punch him back.

I have already learned that boxers aren't slow turning or anything like that. If I try to step to their side and hit them in the side, all they do is turn their body and they are guarding against me again. Then they just move back in.

Depending on who it is, most of them being fast, the punches seem rather hard to wrap. Some of the newer people leave their arms out, but others (like the guy I usually spar) have really long arms, stand back and just throw quick jabs. By the time I block the punch, his hand is already guarding again.

We have also been working on some jujitsu moves lately, which I find fun. There are some throws we have learned for that to take someone down, but..again...none of the instructors have showed us the throw if someone just does a quick jab at them. Whether they are fast enough to do it or not I don't know. I mean..if we ever could get down on the floor, I seem to do pretty well there. But those quick jabs and crosses get me. And most people there don't really even throw many hooks or uppercuts when sparring.

[Erny]

Well since they dont let you kick-which is the best versus boxers-try to quiqly change your stance from rightguard to leftguard and backwards.if you do that exactly before he attack he stop you counterattack.also having a leftguard can disorient an anexperinted boxer

[TenTigers]

I think I understand what Ray is saying, as we do the same in Hung-Ga and I have studied a smattering of Ying Yi Kuen. We call it Iron Door Jam, if the arms are crossed, it is Golden Scissor Hands, or sup ji sao, and you can also use Beggar's Hands.
I think what people might have misunderstood, is you don't simply stand there with your hands in front of your face waiting for the opponent to slam your guard into you-(that's what WE do to them!):p
You are just a bit out of range, and when your opponent starts to move, THEN you attack, jamming him and going through.
You must intercept his intent.

and always remember the Ten Tigers motto:

"When your opponent moves in-you move in.
When your opponent moves out-you move in.
When you opponent stands still- you move in" :D

[SimonM]

training his foowork, turning and punching, turning and punching, turnigng and punching. All boxers do this, and I have to say, I did it in my fu too.


Ditto. And while my old kwoon didn't do the point sparring game we DID do some boxing (my sifu's son was a wicked boxer).

[Fu-Pow]

Lots of good stuff on this thread but I'll throw in my two cents.

I've been doing kung fu for about 10 years but we fairly recently had a guy come to our school that was a Golden Gloves boxer before. He's eventually become my sparring partner and we've had a lot of fun exchanging info and blows (which wasn't quite as fun!) Basically we spar San Shou rules but we don't have mats so we can't throw.

Like you, it took a while to get over the jab. Its fast and although its called it a "jab" it can actually be quite powerful. In fact, I once got a bloody nose from one of his jabs.

A couple of pointers:

1) Like David Jamieson and Masterkiller pointed out. You gotta "close up" or "cover up" more than you do in traditional kung fu. Kung fu is designed to deliver the maximum payload but it also leaves your opponent an opening. You gotta wait to deliver that payload and open up only when you have a clean shot.

2) Shorten up your techniques. There is form and their is fighting. Form is designed to teach you the correct Jin/Ging. There is an expression in kung fu long---->short, round----->straight and soft----->hard. When you begin training in the form you want to be long, round and soft. That is to teach the correct Jin/Ging. As you progress you become tighter and more explosive. Thats what you want to bring to the ring.

2) As was also already pointed out. Use angles to your advantage. You've got to keep pressing forward. If you back straight up you keep backing into his striking range. You've got to sidestep and press forward. When you attack on the angle his ability to root is also very weak and sets you up for takedown.

3) Keep your feet moving. In addition to side stepping you've got to keep your feet moving. Boxers are very nimble on there feet. You've got to be the same. Only assume a more stable stance when you move into the clinch. 3 heights for 3 ranges. Kicks, high and mobile....Punches, medium and more rooted.....Clinch, low and strong.

4) Use your jab to deflect his jab and get inside. A jab is very fast, so what's the best way to defend it? With a jab of course!

5) Use "the bob and weave" against him. Boxers are always taught to "bob and weave." That's because they don't have to worry about kicks. When he "bobs" his head down, blast it with a round kick. He won't even see it coming, he's looking at your hands.

Hope that helps! And good luck.....

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Nah, most boxers are taught from day one to work combos high-low, low-high, high-high-low, high-low-high etc. Theres's no reason not to be able to do this with your fu and play the boxer at the same game. It's a good strategy: boxers use it cos it works. But if as GDA says, they always work high, go low, get them to cover low and go high etc.


you know since you say that it makes sense. guys i have sparred seemed to guard their body a lot less, but my experience with actual boxers is limited at best. plus i like the body shots so i've worked at slippin those in regardless. or at least i did and will be again before long.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

The worst is when after the first shot you have that moment of smiling to yourself and surprise when you realise you've been hit with your own hands, and then you get hit again! :D

It's not bad advice, but sucks against 14-16 ozers.

this was without gloves, but we learned to keep basically the same guard but to turn your hand so that your palm and outer forarm face your opponent when actually parying or to use both hands togeather. was just a tad slower but added more structure so that you didnt hit yourself in the face.

this wasnt meant as guard to sit and hold either, but more of an oh **** cover up then get out and follow up with strikes of your own type thing. to tell you the truth i never actually used it in sparring, but i have seen it used here and there and it served its purpose.