Help with qi [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Scott R. Brown

10-20-2005, 04:18 AM

Hi Ou Ji,

Keep in mind that the practice of chi development is most frequently referred to as Chi “cultivation”. There is a reason for this. Chi development cannot be forced. It must be cultivated, that is: grown from the inside out! If I wish to plant a garden I will first ensure I provide fertile soil, plenty of sunlight and water. When I provide these proper ingredients the plants grow according to their own nature. There is no “forcing” involved, just the conditions to create the best environment for the plants to grow. In this same manner is Chi developed. If you apply yourself to your practice and you remain reasonably consistent it will occur in its own time. If you become too engrossed in attempting to force experiences you will hamper your progress. It matters less that you can “feel” chi and more that it is expressed in your techniques! Chi cultivation is primarily influenced by ones mind. The more tension or frustration you create due to trying to force the experience the more blockage of chi’s natural flow will occur. Relax and let it happen in its own time!

Try not to become engrossed in competition with others for chi experiences. The pursuit of experiences of this type is for beginners and dilettantes. Consistent training and emotional balance are the most effective principles to follow.

It is true that many get excited when they first experience what they consider to be evidence of chi and they want to share their excitement and enthusiasm with others. It is also correct that many times the evidence is merely a manifestation of their wish to feel chi and cannot be confirmed as actually chi. In some environments the experience of “feeling chi” is used ego-centrically as a means to establish superior status over those who cannot feel their chi. The subtle implication is, “See how advanced I am because I can feel my chi!” This too is the attitude of a beginner and dilettante.

The truth is, “feeling” chi has nothing to do with superior skill or ability. We all possess chi. We all breathe. We all have heart beats. Just because I can feel my heart beat and you cannot feel yours does not confer any special martial ability on me that you do not possess. Both of our hearts beat according to our fitness and the nature of hearts. This occurs whether I know I have a heart or not. It is best not to become too engrossed or preoccupied with superfluous experiences that ultimately have no bearing on your greater purpose or goal.

cam

10-20-2005, 05:41 AM

I know what you mean Ou Ji.
May I suggest that you practise zhan zhuang, preferably the wuji posture. I find it is the easiest way to find your alignment and to lengthen/loosen your body.
I don't know if that's finding your qi but it aids in getting whole body motion.

Jim Roselando

10-20-2005, 07:06 AM

This topic was just discussed!

Click here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38406

Ou Ji

10-20-2005, 08:05 AM

I remember that thread. There was also another thread quite some time ago, maybe even last year. Anyhow I intended to ask about specific exercises back then but never did. Peeps were making claims of feeling qi and such after 2 weeks of practice. I'm very skeptical of that.

Also the whole imagery thing seems to me could be all in the mind and if you want to feel it and imagine it flowing around you will believe that you feel it. I'm not looking for make believe.

I've been practicing TC for about 8 years I guess but it's always been secondary to kung fu training. I'm surprised it hasn't come in this amount of time so I'm stumped.

Like I said in another thread I've felt it personally from a TC master in China and it was real so I have no choice but to believe. But I still think that the majority who make qi claims are deluded.

I've done standing type breathing exercises before but usually no more than 10 - 15 minutes. I'll try pushing it to 20 - 30 minutes and see what happens although trying that for at least a year is a tough expirement.

Oh and FT, how to shut up in the head is a question the desperately needs to be answered. My wife is continually amazed that my mind never stops thinking and I'm amazed that hers rarely starts thinking.

There is no empty mind for me.

spiralstair

10-20-2005, 09:11 AM

Physical things often start with an imaginary component. Almost all inventions brought into the world were 'imagined' first, then thought about, had the 'bugs' worked out, then became 'real'. I agree that most of those who claim chi experiences are just 'imagining' them...and never get past that point, and those things stay, along with their martial abilities, just a figment of their imagination.

Could be the key for you lies in your description of your mind that "never stops working". It may be that you interrupt the "imagining" component of creation by instantly questioning and examining any chi experience as soon as it begins to appear. Nipping it in the bud, so no flower appears. This often happens with people with overly active, strong minds.
Maybe walking in a strong , natural setting, like a mountainside in the sun, or in a strong wind, just concentrating on the 'feeling' of the elements against you, not thinking whether they're 'real', would be a good training to develop the necessary 'witnessing' ability to capture the 'chi' sensation.
Remember, good 'chi' is hard to find.
Peace

Jim Roselando

10-20-2005, 09:27 AM

Ou Ji,

I remember that thread. There was also another thread quite some time ago, maybe even last year. Anyhow I intended to ask about specific exercises back then but never did. Peeps were making claims of feeling qi and such after 2 weeks of practice. I'm very skeptical of that.

I would be very skeptical of most Qi claims! Thats why its always best to test for yourself but indeed one needs some quality time invested to see if something is of value or not.

Also the whole imagery thing seems to me could be all in the mind and if you want to feel it and imagine it flowing around you will believe that you feel it. I'm not looking for make believe.

Its always best to let things happen naturally! Avoid thinking or forcing your body to feel stuff. 3 keys! Posture, relaxation and soft dan tien breathing.

I've been practicing TC for about 8 years I guess but it's always been secondary to kung fu training. I'm surprised it hasn't come in this amount of time so I'm stumped.

Dont feel bad! 1 out of 10,000 taiji people probally get it! If that! Why? Is it so complicated or are we making things more complicated? They skip the core foundation training IMO. All Taiji start and end in Wuji! Zhan Zhuang is the base training of almost all internal martial art. Skip this and it may take a lifetime if you ever get it.

Like I said in another thread I've felt it personally from a TC master in China and it was real so I have no choice but to believe. But I still think that the majority who make qi claims are deluded.

That should tell you something is wrong with the training right! ;)

I've done standing type breathing exercises before but usually no more than 10 - 15 minutes. I'll try pushing it to 20 - 30 minutes and see what happens although trying that for at least a year is a tough expirement.

I have been standing for 3+ years now. 10-15 minutes here and there wont do it! Minimum is 20 minutes a day for as long as it takes. Less just wont do it IMO. I have shared the Zhan Zhuang training with a few people. Some from Taiji and some from other arts. After 1 year of 20 minutes daily they are all starting to cultivate and their bodies are also changing! There is no magic pill to Chi! Standing is the simple way that cannot be exhuasted!

Oh and FT, how to shut up in the head is a question the desperately needs to be answered. My wife is continually amazed that my mind never stops thinking and I'm amazed that hers rarely starts thinking.

There is no empty mind for me.

Begin your training in Stillness (zhan zhuang) and be faithful to it! Little by little you will change/cultivate!

A good book to check out is:

Warriors of Stillness vol 1!

Taiji Wu Ji Zhuang!

Best of luck!

Ou Ji

10-20-2005, 11:26 AM

Is there any time preference for Zhan Zhuang training?

Morning? Evening?

Jim Roselando

10-20-2005, 11:31 AM

Ou Ji,

There are times that are better for Chi Kung but the most important thing is daily practice! Skip one day, fall back ten days!

So, lets all follow the golden rule of Nike:

Just Do It!

:D

qiphlow

10-20-2005, 11:48 AM

practice regularly and properly, the results will happen! the old masters never gave us a schedule for the various phenomena to manifest to us. they only told us that the phenomena would happen with proper practice! and besides, i think we gain more from sticking to the training than waiting for results! just practice.

fiercest tiger

10-20-2005, 04:59 PM

If you have a good teacher you can experience chi in the 1st lesson. My wife was the biggest skeptic until she did one class and was amazed of what happened to her and what she felt during the Jaam Jong.

Maybe start with trying to make a small energy ball between your hands?

all the best.

FT

Ou Ji

10-20-2005, 05:22 PM

Maybe start with trying to make a small energy ball between your hands?

Right, qi balls between my hands.

I don't see a smiley so I'm guessing you're serious?

I may have to reconsider quoting you in my signature.

fiercest tiger

10-20-2005, 05:52 PM

hey, i was serious bro, try it and you will feel heat and like your hands are like magnets.

This is a basic way to feel tingles, heat etc...place each palm facinge ach other and pull them apart and push them together really slowly and you will feel something if you relax.

seriously dude its really simple.

FT:)

Anjentao

10-20-2005, 10:36 PM

Ou ji,

FWIW. The best advice you can get is not here. You ask what exercises you can do to cultivate qi, yet without a qualified instructor, I think you would waist a great deal of time (I speak on this from experience). Even if everyone gave you an exercise in great detail, how would you progress be guaged or tracked? How could you possibly know if you are doing the exercise correctly?

I used to say the same thing. I wanted to experience for MYSELF what I had "read about in books" regarding qi. It took me a while, but I found a teacher and have been at it ever since. Qi is not a myth, a secret, or a mystery. And there's much more to it than what you may currently think. That was certainly the case for me!

Don't get me wrong. The advice on Zhan Zhuang, relaxing, etc is SOLID! I do standing practice daily. But truly, without the guidance of a qualified teacher, the road is sure to be a lot longer. The study of internal arts is an experiential thing that can not be learned from books or videos. A lot is learned by feeling a teacher's body, or getting a correction on your posture, learning breathing techniques, etc.

I think most would agree that qi gong practice is a lot more than what you think and the books you may read have concepts that are very profound.

I wish you well and hope you find what you seek.

PS-I'm certain there are qualified teachers in Japan (if that is where you will be for a while) and I am certain you can ask folks on this site about qualified teachers in whichever area you will return to.

Happy training!

ANJ

Practice, Patience, Persistence!

Ou Ji

10-21-2005, 09:12 AM

Thanks for all the info everyone. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but how difficult is it to stand motionless holding your arms out?

I really don't see the necessity of having a qualified instructor overseeing that type of training.

I just don't subscribe to the notion that all is hopeless without personal instruction from a qualified teacher. Results vary depending on the source with personal instruction at the top and scribbled notes at the bottom.

Anyhow I had been planning on trying 20 - 30 minutes of Zhan Zhuang for quite awhile now. Got some good info from Master Wang Rengang in NY.

Sorry FT, I just tried it and all I feel is warmer when hands are close and cooler when far apart. Nothing unusual there.

Ray Pina

10-21-2005, 10:41 AM

A quick points and opinions:

Good that you're not forcing a "feel" and can be honest with yourself. It took me some time too. Where I felt it first, and became aware of it, was in taiji's first move, the up and down.

When in the up position, imagine that you are pushing a big log into the water, and it raises you up. Keep your palms opn and your fingers straight. Hold your head up, pull everything up and try to quiet the mind. Very hard to explain all of this, you need a teacher to show you.

But think about this: you only think about your head or stomach when they hurt ... otherwise, you feel nothing special about those parts. Guys who are feeling things early, that's not necessarily their chi. It's their channels opening up. Perhaps everything is flowing well and all is good.

Some pustures were very unformfortable for me at first, I felt too much, and it wasn't chi. Now I can hold them a lot easier, much more relaxed about it.

Good luck.

Ou Ji

10-21-2005, 12:43 PM

Thanks for your input. For the record I am not trying to learn TC blindly on my own. I've had decent instructors in the past.

I'm sure I wasn't putting enough into it because I was more occupied with external training. I'm just wondereing if there are better exercises for me since the stuff I've been doing doesn't seem to be giving me the results that others are claiming.

Not that I think they're all lying but I am VERY skeptical. Hence my decision to try making a bigger effort before hollering QI NUTS. :D

cam

10-21-2005, 01:52 PM

How hard is it to stand motionless with your arms held out in front of you?
Very hard! That is if you are doing it properly, hence the need for qualified instruction. It took me a year just to come close to the proper alignment and when I finally began to stand properly I could barely hold the stance for 10 minutes.
That's how long it took me to just learn to relax and sink into the posture, the wuji posture that is, with my arms comfortably hanging by my sides.
Now 2 years later, I practise the tree-hugger for about 30 min every day(almost), yet I've still not achieved 30 min of song in my posture, there is always some tension creeping in.
Maybe in a few more years I'll have it, to borrow a phrase "just do it"

Anjentao

10-21-2005, 07:31 PM

Ou ji,

You do not sound like a jerk. You're giving your honest opinion. As I gave mine.

I couldn't agree more with cam. It's very hard to practice these postures correctly. I practice every day trying to improve. It is truly a challenge. There are several components of practice and they are all important.

I chose to reply to this thread because it was similar to my experience. I started studying shao-lin (external) and caught a glimpse of Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing Yi, but not in depth. I decided to search for a teacher to EXPERIENCE for myself what this "internal" was really about. I was lucky enough to find one. It is not at all what I thought it was. It is a great deal more.

I think ultimately you will follow what works for you. Practicing consistently is good and practicing correctly wouldn't hurt either.

If you find a teacher, I would be interested in your opinion after studying with him/her for a while.

Good luck and best regards.
Anj

Practice, Patience, Persistence

fiercest tiger

10-21-2005, 09:09 PM

Depends on what you want dude?

If you want to feel chi or you want to heal with the hands, you want spiritual enlightenment, or a type of ging you will do different type of chi kung for different things.

You maybe not listening and feeling enough to feel the energy pulling and pushing when playing the ball or doing to fast. Anyway you will find it one day if you keep at it. Too many people giving you info like log in water etc can be confusing IMHO.

All the best mate
FT

cam

10-22-2005, 07:11 AM

One question Ou Ji, how low were you in your stance while you were practising any standing posture?
It may be that you were more concerned with developing your legs then with relaxing your upper body. Done correctly your legs should feel the burn even in a high stance. I would say that until you have some command at relaxing your lower back you shouldn't even concern yourself with low stances.

Lajet

10-22-2005, 08:03 AM

Any suggestions for a qualified person in and around Rochester, New York?

TonyM.

10-22-2005, 11:09 AM

Scott R. Brown

10-22-2005, 12:44 PM

Ou Ji. Chi gong is energy training. You are training chi, not li. A chi gong exercise that has the arms extended would nesessitate that you be able to raise the arms with chi circulation and not muscular strength. This involves finding, gathering. building and refining chi and having it overflow your five vessels and run freely through your twelve meridians. When you can do the grand circulation the arms will rise on their own accord. Yi(mind or intent) leads chi(energy) leads li (flesh or muscle).

Actually this is realtively easy to do without all that activity. I have done it many times. This action does not require any knowledge of chi or its circulation, nor does it require any intent to culitvate, store or move chi. All it requires is mental focus.

TaiChiBob

10-23-2005, 09:08 AM

Greetings..

Hi Scott... i agree with both you and Tony.. when i started Jham Zhong it was dependent on focus and muscle control (exhausting and painful).. these many years later i have come to understand that by inflating Peng into the arms and shoulders and "sinking into the ground" it is nearly effortless.. I have not heard of anyone by-passing the physical torture of the external training to reach the liberation of internal gifts.. so, i assume they are the Yang/Yin aspects of this discipline..

One of my mentor's children spent an extended stay in China with a well-respected Chen coach and QiGong adept.. after a month, the offspring was nearly defeated by the required 4 hours a day of Zham Zhong.. The coach said it would be reduced to 30 minutes twice a day as soon as they "got it".. the offspring's shoulders had literally doubled in size, but.. within a week of the discouraged call home, the offspring "had it".. the new found wisdom was shared upon return, "there is a limitless universal energy flowing through each of us, let it do the work".. even with those words of wisdom, it took me some time to understand it is as easy as doing it, and as difficult as trying to do it.. Occasionally, i get lucky and have this feeling like i'm resting my arms on some invisible softly inflated rubber ball.. the meditation is effortless and it seems i could stand there for hours.. now, if i had the where-with-all to get that into my live training, celebration would be in order.. :) Another great benefit of "post standing" is the subtle alignment adjustments that reduce fatigue and reduce resistance to smooth Qi flow.. time after time i find more and more small corrections that make big differences, very rewarding..

In short, Zham Zhong has become a integral part of my routine and i recommend it for any serious practitioner..

Be well..

Ou Ji

10-23-2005, 09:49 AM

Depends on what you want dude?

If you want to feel chi or you want to heal with the hands, you want spiritual enlightenment, or a type of ging you will do different type of chi kung for different things.

For starters I'm just looking to feel the qi but I'll take any of the benefits that go with the training.

One question Ou Ji, how low were you in your stance while you were practising any standing posture?

In the course of my external training there is a standing posture that's done in a low stance, as low as you can go. The TC training included a standing breathing exercise that is done with just a slight bend in the knees.

Let me get this straight - the wuji posture is not the same as the 'tree hugger'? Wuji is arms down and 'tree hugger' is arm up? Anybody got a Chinese name for 'tree hugger'?

I'm guessing I should be starting with arms down and only advance to arms up when they can be lifted by qi alone?

I've also seen the 'tree hugger' posture done is a very low stance during one of my visits to China. So should it be done high or low?

TonyM.

10-23-2005, 06:03 PM

You should do quiet sitting meditation with your mind on your lower dan tian at least until you have built a fire and know what it feels like. Standing comes later.

Scott R. Brown

10-23-2005, 06:08 PM

Hi Scott...I have not heard of anyone by-passing the physical torture of the external training to reach the liberation of internal gifts.. so, i assume they are the Yang/Yin aspects of this discipline..

Hi Bob,

Of course my first question would be, “Have you tried or known anyone who has tried?”
__________________________________________________ ____________

I was able to perform this skill without any Chi Kung or Tai Chi training at all. I learned it “on my own” without a teacher 27 years ago long before Chi Kung was well known and had become the fad it is today. I hadn’t even heard of Chi Kung yet.

In the past I have stated that the methods of training many follow and believe are the ONLY method to accomplish their specific purpose should be considered merely “A” method of training and not “THE” method of training. Many become attached to the illusion that the method they are learning is the only TRUE way! There is NEVER only one method to achieve anything.

Most of the time the popular methods of training are not the quickest or easiest methods to learn. It is commonly the most exotic appearing methods that attract the largest number of followers. Exotic methods allow the beginner and limited thinkers to think they are learning something unique and special; this makes the student feel special and unique. The need to feel special and unique is an emotional attachment that must be transcended if one wishes to gain deeper understanding! These feelings also lead to prideful attitudes that limit ones deeper understanding as well!

While I appreciate the various methods of Chi Kung training, they are NOT necessary to develop ones Chi and may actually become an impediment to training. It isn’t the exercises that create the impediment, but ones mental fixation (attachment) upon the exercises as the ONLY way to accomplish the purpose. This attitude leads to an attachment to superficial form that must be transcended at some point in order for advance progress to be gained. It is the ATTACHMENT that causes the difficulty not the exercises. My attitude has always been, “Why carry the extra weight when it serves no useful purpose and will just have to be discarded once one realizes it was never necessary to begin with?”

Sometimes it is the romantic and mystical feeling of a training method that attracts the student. As if in line with the teachings of Lao Tzu, my method is “simple and not special”! There are no fancy movements, breathing exercises or complicated philosophy required. You don’t even have to stand up, LOL!!!!

The sensation you have described is very descriptive of the sensation I have experienced as well so I can confirm your experience from my own.

As I have posted many times in the past, if an individual finds benefit in their training method that is good for them, but don’t think it is anything special. Because it isn’t!

cam

10-25-2005, 08:16 AM

Ou Ji, you ask how low you should go while training standing.
As low as you wish BUT if you have to sacrifice your alignment or any hope of getting song in your posture, you're too low.
Standing is all about alignment, without alignment there is no song, no qi cultivation, no kungfu, you're just wasting you're time. Might as well get a bag of crystals and write posts about mystical qi powers.
This is my third attempt,PLEASE don't delete it!

Scott R. Brown

10-25-2005, 08:39 AM

Standing is all about alignment, without alignment there is no song, no qi cultivation, no kungfu, you're just wasting you're time. Might as well get a bag of crystals and write posts about mystical qi powers.

Ignorance is bliss!!

cam

10-25-2005, 09:20 AM

Well Mr. Brown, there are plenty of Taijiquan Masters who all state that standing is an integral part of their training.
Then there is YOU!
Do you wish to guess who's opinion I will listen to?

TaiChiBob

10-25-2005, 12:05 PM

Greetings..

I was able to perform this skill without any Chi Kung or Tai Chi training at all. I learned it “on my own” without a teacher 27 years ago long before Chi Kung was well known and had become the fad it is today. I hadn’t even heard of Chi Kung yet. I suggest that you were able to accomplish some measure of the qualities described as "Chi Kung".. but, absent the training and definition of Chi Kung, it was fortuitous at best.. Chi Kung is a discipline, unachievable except through that discipline's standards.. One may achieve similar results but, by definition, it is not Chi Kung..

Of course my first question would be, “Have you tried or known anyone who has tried?” No, my introduction was as a definitive discipline without suggestion of other approaches.. in hindsight, i agree that we can achieve very similar results, but i cannot call it Chi Kung.. as in most things, hindsight offers a variety of options unknown during the journey.. sort of like navigating to a distant place without a map, then.. having someone hand you a map, you see the obvious short-cuts.. like the Taoist "short path" school.. very short, very dangerous, very rewarding.. a person, realizing the obvious "short-cut" after reaching the goal, decides to teach others the short-cut.. but, without the foundations of discipline, many of the pilgrims suffered great calamities and injuries... others, more open-minded, reaped the rewards..

Most of the time the popular methods of training are not the quickest or easiest methods to learn. It is commonly the most exotic appearing methods that attract the largest number of followers. Exotic methods allow the beginner and limited thinkers to think they are learning something unique and special; this makes the student feel special and unique. The need to feel special and unique is an emotional attachment that must be transcended if one wishes to gain deeper understanding! These feelings also lead to prideful attitudes that limit ones deeper understanding as well! Without instruction or a "map" of where it is you intend to go, aspiring for some unknown quality is difficult and risky.. if you know you want to achieve a particular or known goal, it is likely you will also follow at least some of the guidelines for getting there.. if i decide i want to cultivate Chi through standing meditation, i already have an insight or understanding of the goal and some indication of its path.. that i modify that path based on other such experiences, i have only modified a process, not by-passed it.. if i perform a set of exercises without knowing the goal, i may just as likely miss the goal out of ignorance..

It is easy to look back and realize that i didn't have to go through all that to get here, but, that's exactly how i got here.. it seems to me, that to say you've stood in Zham Zhong without formal instruction or associated "baggage" is contradictory.. to say you have achieved similar results without the repetitive discipline is more appropriate, IMHO... Certainly, i accept the notion that it is ALL attainable by sudden realization.. but, without some notion of what it is, how would we know what we have attained.. and, having that notion, presumes some knowledge of the process, tainting the spontaneous realization with the prejudice of the process.. so, i surmise that it is hindsight that informs us of the needlessness of discipline , and hindsight that informs us of attainment without the influence of the discipline.. in other words, having attained Zham Zhong qualities without discipline or prior knowledge is only recognized as such when it is revealed to us.. i only pursue this nuance because some will seek "short path" rewards having no idea where they are going.. from 30 some years as a surveyor/map-maker i know that two things are required to arrive at a place.. knowing what/where the place is and knowing one's current relationship to that place.. the journey, as you say, will be the providence of one's intentions..

Be well..

Scott R. Brown

10-25-2005, 03:34 PM

Hi Bob,

Greetings..I suggest that you were able to accomplish some measure of the qualities described as "Chi Kung".. but, absent the training and definition of Chi Kung, it was fortuitous at best.. Chi Kung is a discipline, unachievable except through that discipline's standards.. One may achieve similar results but, by definition, it is not Chi Kung..

I would say it is not Chi Kung according to YOUR definition (and those who agree with your proposition). That is all! We must not forget a system of teaching and learning is only A system. That is, "One of many!" There will be some similarities between systems that seek to accomplish the same goal, but they are not required to be identical. The belief system you adopt is based upon what you have been taught, what you accept, and your experiences whose interpretation are limited by the system you adhere too.

It is easier for most people to redefine phenomena that do not fit into their pre-established and limited belief system than to expand their belief system. It is easier but, it is also intellectually lazy. It is a path that leads to stagnation and not an ever expanding life of understanding.

No, my introduction was as a definitive discipline without suggestion of other approaches.. in hindsight, i agree that we can achieve very similar results, but i cannot call it Chi Kung.. as in most things, hindsight offers a variety of options unknown during the journey.. sort of like navigating to a distant place without a map, then.. having someone hand you a map, you see the obvious short-cuts.. like the Taoist "short path" school.. very short, very dangerous, very rewarding.. a person, realizing the obvious "short-cut" after reaching the goal, decides to teach others the short-cut.. but, without the foundations of discipline, many of the pilgrims suffered great calamities and injuries... others, more open-minded, reaped the rewards..

See above once again!

It is presumption to assume a path you haven’t walked is more hazardous because it is not the path you were taught. Even if our accepted authority tells us it is more dangerous, that does not make it so. It presumes our authority knows it all. It does not allow for the limited belief system of our authority either. All systems by definition are limited. Therefore confining to our growth and understanding if we do not understand the inherent limitations within the system. We all accept the authority of our teachers and it is necessary in order to learn according to the teacher’s method or system. However, other systems exist beyond the underlying structure of the system we have learned. Some people are more comfortable being followers their whole lives feeling safe and secure within their self-imposed limited belief system and that is ok for them! Others seek to be leaders or independent thinkers, not limited by systems. These individuals are innovators and expand the bounds of the possible. Some notable independent thinkers would be men like: Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, Columbus, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein.

Without instruction or a "map" of where it is you intend to go, aspiring for some unknown quality is difficult and risky.. if you know you want to achieve a particular or known goal, it is likely you will also follow at least some of the guidelines for getting there.. if i decide i want to cultivate Chi through standing meditation, i already have an insight or understanding of the goal and some indication of its path.. that i modify that path based on other such experiences, i have only modified a process, not by-passed it.. if i perform a set of exercises without knowing the goal, i may just as likely miss the goal out of ignorance..

That is not the point. The point is, the system for learning is not limited to the one you and others here propose. For example it is not necessary to stand. One may sit, or lie down. This is a fact. Now, if one wishes to perform moving as opposed to stationary exercises there certainly will be some difference in result. However, it is similar to the differences between rowing and running. Both develop your cardio-vascular system, but the direct affects on your muscles will differ. Running develops the legs as you train, while rowing will develop your back and legs and arms. The overall goal of aerobic training occurs for both the specific effects differ.

In addition, the idea that an instructor is necessary is simply not true. I will concede it is beneficial and easier in most cases, but to say it is required presumes too much. This is nothing more than saying, “Because it is outside of my field of experience and what I was taught, it can not exist!”

It is easy to look back and realize that i didn't have to go through all that to get here, but, that's exactly how i got here.. it seems to me, that to say you've stood in Zham Zhong without formal instruction or associated "baggage" is contradictory.. to say you have achieved similar results without the repetitive discipline is more appropriate, IMHO...

The "baggage" is not the actions performed, it is the attitude that “this is the ONLY system that is proper or possible to learn from!” It is no different than saying you can’t develop aerobic fitness unless you run! Or you can't defend yourself effectively unless you learn “X” style of MA. The FACT is you can learn to defend yourself effectively without learning ANY style of MA!

Do you think that the concept of chi is unique to the Chinese? You are learning a defined system described by only ONE culture that is all. It is not the only method, nor are the Chinese the only culture to perceive and utilize the phenomena of Chi. Ask an American Indian Medicine Man!

Certainly, i accept the notion that it is ALL attainable by sudden realization.. but, without some notion of what it is, how would we know what we have attained.. and, having that notion, presumes some knowledge of the process, tainting the spontaneous realization with the prejudice of the process.. so, i surmise that it is hindsight that informs us of the needlessness of discipline , and hindsight that informs us of attainment without the influence of the discipline.. in other words, having attained Zham Zhong qualities without discipline or prior knowledge is only recognized as such when it is revealed to us.. i only pursue this nuance because some will seek "short path" rewards having no idea where they are going.. from 30 some years as a surveyor/map-maker i know that two things are required to arrive at a place.. knowing what/where the place is and knowing one's current relationship to that place.. the journey, as you say, will be the providence of one's intentions..

I have no argument here, but that was not what I was inferring from my post in question. It is true one may discover something, but not actually fully understand what it is they have discovered or how to utilize it. My point is that the formalized methods that many here accept are not the only methods possible and are in fact NOT NECESSARY to learn the prescribed skills. This is not a criticism of any particular system(s), but a criticism of limiting our experience by saying there is only ONE system possible. This attitude is foolish, ignorant and limited!

My example was meant to demonstrate the same effects may be gained using another "unknown" or "unconsidered" system. If I chose to teach the method I used, it too would be a system. The foolishness occurs only when I teach it is the best or only method and all others are useless!

It is always a pleasure my friend!!:)

Scott R. Brown

10-26-2005, 12:33 AM

Well Mr. Brown, there are plenty of Taijiquan Masters who all state that standing is an integral part of their training.
Then there is YOU!
Do you wish to guess who's opinion I will listen to?

Hi cam,

Saying it is an integral part of training is not the same thing as saying it can’t be done without this method. I am not intending to discourage anyone from standing training. I am attempting to expand narrow perspectives and limited views.

A system of learning is a tool we use to a gain a specific result. There is never one method to learn anything. Kicks are an integral part of Tai Boxing and many other MA’s, but absent from Aikido and many others. I may learn to defend myself effectively without learning kicks. I may also learn to develop and channel my Chi without performing standing exercises. That is not to say that standing exercises would not be beneficial. But there is a difference between something being beneficial and something being NECESSARY!

It is superfluous to say many or most Chi Kung instructors say it is necessary. By nature we will tend to teach the way we have learned. So it should not be surprising that is what they teach. Also by nature most humans are not especially innovative. Just because something is not done or you or your instructor has not heard of it does not mean it is not possible. Just because I have never heard of France does not mean it does not exist.

Just as on the “Traditional Chinese MA” thread, many here have very narrow experience with thought systems or traditions outside their narrow field of study. It might surprise you to know that the concepts of Chi exist in most Nature based religious systems. The principles are also not foreign to Christian, Jewish, East Indian, and Greek traditions. It is culturo-centric to think only the Chinese have the traditions, the learning systems and the patent on everything, especially MA and Chi!

Ideas, concepts, principles and physical properties are present for all men (and women) of all traditions to discover, develop, utilize and teach to others. They will each devise their own system for passing on the knowledge. While there may be some similarity, they will not be identical!

I would advise you continue to follow the tradition you are learning, but I would also encourage you to transcend your narrow understanding of what is possible and what is not!

TaiChiBob

10-26-2005, 05:52 AM

Greetings..

Scott: If i were to advocate that any particular system was superior or necessary, your post would be on point.. i do not. I do advocate that to say you have learned Chi Kung you must have followed that discipline.. or, you can say you have achieved similar results through personal insight and experience. This is not unlike a plague in my profession, where unlicensed activities are encroaching on licensed activities.. there are laws that prevent unlicensed tradesmen from claiming to offer services only legally obtainable from a state certified professional. Chi Kung is a recognized system of discipline and result (ambiguous at times, granted...) Chi Kung means "energy work", your description seems more like "energy enlightenment"... self-discovery and self-realization... I am not so rigidly bound by definition as to discount self-discovery, it is the vehicle of progress and the basis of "Chi Kung" as it exists today.. But, i find it worthwhile to acknowledge those that have chosen a path and dedicated their training to it..

It is quite possible to achieve Chi Kung results through many paths, even paths not yet known... please do not conclude that i dismiss things outside my range of experience, i spend more time exploring than following.. i do recognize a benefit when it reveals itself, both from existing systems and explorations.. It is risky to advise people to adventure into energy work without some guidance, there are dangers that can be avoided with experienced guidance.. yet, i am a proponent of experiential learning, knowing that a direct experience with unfavorable results will be more likely internalized than a verbal caution from a guide.. but, certain of those unfavorable experiences can be quite dangerous.. i favor guidance to the point where a student can recognize their own potential, then letting them explore that potential..
In addition, the idea that an instructor is necessary is simply not true. I will concede it is beneficial and easier in most cases, but to say it is required presumes too much. This is nothing more than saying, “Because it is outside of my field of experience and what I was taught, it can not exist!” As noted above, i have no issue with the notion that an instructor is not necessary.. but, as in my last post, i feel that embarking on a journey without a reasonable concept of where you are going implies you won't know when you get there.. if i decide to go visit my high school friend (i havent seen in 40 years) and i don't know where she lives.. do i just travel until i find her? No, i have at least some research and some idea of where to look.. otherwise, the desired result will likely elude me.. The process of guidance is intended to maximize the efficiency of the purpose and set the stage for the student's ability to embark on self-discovery.. Ideally, there is no confinement of experience, no "closed" system, no "only" way, just "fingers pointing at the moon", enjoy the moon.. I heartily advocate experiencing various systems AND self-exploration.. wisdom is where you find it, and it can only be found by looking..

Some people are more comfortable being followers their whole lives feeling safe and secure within their self-imposed limited belief system and that is ok for them! Others seek to be leaders or independent thinkers, not limited by systems. These individuals are innovators and expand the bounds of the possible. Some notable independent thinkers would be men like: Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, Columbus, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein. Yet, those same people built their independent thinking on the work of others.. they learned language skills, mathematics, philosophy, science, etc... all of which brought them to the point of insight and the self-discovery, they had foundational guidance... so, in short, i give credence to both guidance and self-discovery.. each dependent on the other, as self-discovery yields new insights it is transmitted to others as new guidance.. it is the growth of knowledge..

Be well..

Be well..

cam

10-26-2005, 09:06 AM

Another long post of mine deleted, very frustrating!
Bob, good post!
"If I have seen further, it is because I have stood on the shoulder's of giants" Newton I believe.
Scott, in North America there is not an over-abundance of skilled Taiji/Qigong teachers, if one is lucky enough to train with one then one should consider themselves quite fortunate. When you say that there are other methods, you may be quite right but unfortunately there are also a lot of frauds that will make plenty of promises to unsuspecting students.

Scott R. Brown

10-26-2005, 10:33 AM

Scott R. Brown

10-26-2005, 10:56 AM

Hi Bob,

I do advocate that to say you have learned Chi Kung you must have followed that discipline.. or, you can say you have achieved similar results through personal insight and experience.

Chi development exercises are not the sole possession of the Chinese culture. Chi is a universal principle perceived understood and developed by many other cultures, not JUST the Chinese.

I never said I “learned Chi Kung”. I didn’t say I didn’t either, but that is not the point! I never proposed my exercise was a form of Chi Kung. I said the effects of Chi may be experienced outside the tradition of formalized Chi Kung exercises. In reference to “experiencing the effects of Chi” I said,

“Actually this is relatively easy to do without all that activity. [That is without extensive traditional Chi Kung exercises] I have done it many times. This action [exercise] does not require any knowledge of chi or its circulation, nor does it require any intent to cultivate, store or move chi. All it requires is mental focus.”

In other words, it is possible to experience and utilize the effects of Chi without actually understanding it is Chi you are experiencing. It is unimportant to KNOW what it is, only to learn what is possible and this may be discovered as you go. I did not state a full indepth understanding of Chi would be gained. Nor did I propose the exercise I mentioned should be a replacement for Chi Kung training. Only that it is easier to experience without practicing the formal exercises required by traditional Chi Kung training!

The heading under which this thread was started was,

“what is the best exercise for developing and feeling qi?”

Since you have no knowledge of the exercise I refer to you really have no foundation to make a valid critical review! And if I had described it you could still not give a valid critical review until you experienced the effects I have using the same exercise.

This is not unlike a plague in my profession, where unlicensed activities are encroaching on licensed activities.. there are laws that prevent unlicensed tradesmen from claiming to offer services only legally obtainable from a state certified professional.

Chi Kung principles are not licensed by the state! Chi Kung is merely a formalized tradition. Chi is unregulated and is not owned or controlled by any specific culture. The fact someone in your trade may not have a state license does not indicate he doesn’t know the business. It only demonstrates he is not licensed according to your State law and your professional organization, and therefore may not “legally” practice. It is no direct reflection of the individual’s, education, knowledge, experience or abilities, only his legal status. Someone with similar training as yours may be licensed within another nation, State or municipality. The knowledge base required to be licensed would likely be similar but not identical to the requirements where you are licensed. As such there are other traditions that practice, train and teach the principles of Chi without following the specific practices or traditions of Chi Kung!

Chi Kung is a recognized system of discipline and result (ambiguous at times, granted...) Chi Kung means "energy work", your description seems more like "energy enlightenment"... self-discovery and self-realization... I am not so rigidly bound by definition as to discount self-discovery, it is the vehicle of progress and the basis of "Chi Kung" as it exists today.. But, i find it worthwhile to acknowledge those that have chosen a path and dedicated their training to it..

I described briefly, not in detail, ONE exercise I used to perform regularly over 25 years ago that presented results identical to one you mentioned you experienced through Chi Kung training. You know nothing about the exercise, why I performed it, or what results I obtained other than they are similar to the ones you described. I have not described my exercise, only its effects. Further the only experience you have of me is a narrow perspective that I present on this BB which is subject to your own personal bias. I recognize this follows the same principles of how I formed an impression of you, but perhaps it is premature to try to characterize my experience for me.

It is risky to advise people to adventure into energy work without some guidance, there are dangers that can be avoided with experienced guidance.. yet, i am a proponent of experiential learning, knowing that a direct experience with unfavorable results will be more likely internalized than a verbal caution from a guide.. but, certain of those unfavorable experiences can be quite dangerous.. i favor guidance to the point where a student can recognize their own potential, then letting them explore that potential..

I agree there are benefits to having an instructor. I disagree there are dangers in not having an instructor beyond the relative dangers of learning anything without instruction. Instruction without a doubt provides guidance that may help to avoid pitfalls and promote efficiency in training. However, not everyone NEEDS instruction. Even if MOST people do, we don’t know who it is that needs instruction and who it is that does not. My intent is to state that a “Chi Kung” instructor is not NECESSARY, not that an instructor is not beneficial. Chi Kung is not the sole possessor of the Chi tradition! There are other traditions from other cultures that utilize Chi. They may not call it Chi, but it is the same thing! These traditions of study have their own systems of instruction just as valid as Chi Kung!

i feel that embarking on a journey without a reasonable concept of where you are going implies you won't know when you get there.. if i decide to go visit my high school friend (i havent seen in 40 years) and i don't know where she lives.. do i just travel until i find her? No, i have at least some research and some idea of where to look.. otherwise, the desired result will likely elude me.. The process of guidance is intended to maximize the efficiency of the purpose and set the stage for the student's ability to embark on self-discovery..

Please do not confuse my principle of not being attached to the ‘baggage” as implying a structure of learning is not necessary! In principle I agree it is best to have a determined purpose, a plan, and an organized system of training to accomplishing the purpose. But it is not beyond the scope of possibility to learn as you go either. Knowing and stating this is not the same as advocating or encouraging it. There are some on these boards who think there is only ONE way to do things or ONE tradition that teaches these principles. This is a narrow-minded and limited perspective. The result is the student is confined by his attachment to form and bound by his narrow perspective. This limits understanding and growth and should be avoided and discouraged. One method of accomplishing this is to identify the malady and present alternate but just as valid perspectives.

There is a long tradition of Chi Kung-like training in many other cultural milieux. These are just as valid and capable of providing the knowledge base and training desired. My purpose is to expand narrow, limited views, not to negate Chinese Chi Kung systems.

I have not intended to criticize the Chi Kung tradition. I used one instance in my own experience to demonstrate that the effects of Chi maybe be experienced through apparently a non-traditionally Chinese exercise and without instruction. This fulfills the premise of this thread which is to find a way to experience the effects of Chi while also transcending the narrow perspective that it MUST be a form of Chi Kung!

TaiChiBob

10-27-2005, 08:14 AM

Greetings..

Scott: I agree with most of your assertions.. but..

I have not intended to criticize the Chi Kung tradition. I used one instance in my own experience to demonstrate that the effects of Chi maybe be experienced through apparently a non-traditionally Chinese exercise and without instruction. This fulfills the premise of this thread which is to find a way to experience the effects of Chi while also transcending the narrow perspective that it MUST be a form of Chi Kung! The original request was..
So my question is this - what is the best exercise for developing and feeling qi?
So, i conclude that the individual has a specific interest in a culturally specific concept on a forum dedicated to culturally specific practices.. had the person asked about "energy" rather than Qi, your approach would have been on point. Qi, and its related exercises, are uniquely Chinese concepts.. energy, and its relation to bio-mechanical processes may very well simulate Qi concepts, provide similar results and have no noticable differences, but.. staying on point, is a consideration, here.. We could deviate into a plethora of possible known systems that produce similar results, even explore new possibilities.. but, i sense that would only further confuse the aspiring "Qi" student.. As i have stated, i am in complete agreement that the notion of "Qi", absent of its cultural implications, is limitless.. but, the reference to "Qi" infers a cultural bias.. my responses have been in consideration of the request, not as a forum to expand personal preferences.. As long as we use Qi (Chi) as a reference, i feel we are bound by its cultural implication.. Of course, we can introduce other systems or our own non-Qi (based on cultural inference) experiences, but i think it is important that we be clear that the information presented either be tied to the initial reference of Qi, or be clearly noted as a similar reference but not specifically Qi per the classic Chinese concept.. which brings me to the issue of...
Chi Kung is not the sole possessor of the Chi tradition! There are other traditions from other cultures that utilize Chi. They may not call it Chi, but it is the same thing! These traditions of study have their own systems of instruction just as valid as Chi Kung!
Perhaps, i am implying that "other cultures that utilize Chi" also utilize differing terminology. As such, there is wisdom in maintaining cultural identity reference, or in asserting one's own unique reference perspective.. it offers the aspiring student valid references, without the confusion of source/result ambiguities.. once the aspiring student realizes the similarities and differences (foundational work) it is appropriate to suggest they have their own experience free of further prejudices..

I realize that we are dealing with semantics at some level, but.. i think a clear perspective is needed to advance the cause of Qi exploration.. too much ambiguity will cloud the issue. If the original query was regarding "Prana" then Hindu references would be in order, etc... Reference to Qi as a general energy is accurate, but not appropriate if the aspirant is interested in the Chinese concept of Qi..

Be well.. (excellent "point/counter-point" discussion)..

Scott R. Brown

10-27-2005, 08:14 PM

Hi Bob,

So, i conclude that the individual has a specific interest in a culturally specific concept on a forum dedicated to culturally specific practices..

You drew a reasonable inference, but it does remain only an inference. Your inference led you to focus upon the cultural tradition and expression of Chi Kung, while my inference led me to focus on gaining the experience in a quick and easy manner. My perspective does not encourage or require a narrow focus. If we promote through our teachings or attitudes “method” or “cultural” biases we encourage narrow thinking even if that is not our intention.

Narrow thinking must at some point be transcended. If we discourage narrow thinking from the beginning, it enhances the learning process. Narrow thinking may be compared to weeds in a garden. If I keep the weeds under control, pulling them before they become rooted too deeply, my garden remains healthy. If I neglect or ignore the weeds allowing them to over run the garden, I risk damage to my garden’s health and well-being. Neglected weeds grow deeper roots and removing them becomes increasingly difficult. It behooves us to remove weeds while they are small or not allow them to grow at all. This principle applies to narrow views, if we ignore them they become tenacious and more difficult to transcend at a later date.

energy, and its relation to bio-mechanical processes may very well simulate Qi concepts, provide similar results and have no noticable differences, but.. staying on point, is a consideration, here..

As noted above, the “point” is subject to personal interpretation and biases. Yours focuses on accepted systems to achieve the result. You believe this is the easiest most productive method. Mine focuses on a more direct and therefore easier method that has no cultural/method bias. I believe my method is the most productive means to achieve the desired result. You argue your perspective is proven and accepted. I argue mine is quicker and with less attended “baggage (weeds)” that must be transcended at a later. The results are the same; it is only the path that differs.

We could deviate into a plethora of possible known systems that produce similar results, even explore new possibilities.. but, i sense that would only further confuse the aspiring "Qi" student..

I sense it would not, unless the issue is created out of nothing. I originally mentioned no cultural context, only a deviation from traditional training methodologies:

“This action does not require any knowledge of chi or its circulation, nor does it require any intent to cultivate, store or move chi. All it requires is mental focus.”

Methodologies are merely tools used to get from point “A” to point “B”. If we attach ourselves unreasonably to the method we tend to forget its original purpose; to get us to point “B”. Which is more important, arriving at point “B” or the way I get there? Some may consider the method more important, I do not! To me; if it works, it works! I do not intended to discourage systematized learning, which is beneficial, I mean to keep in proper context that the goal of the system takes precedence over the methodology.

Exercises require no cultural context to practice. Cultural context is something that is imposed from without, not something inherent within an exercise. I am assuming my exercise is non-traditional because I have not seen it within my study of Chi Kung, but it does have inherent similarities to traditional Chi Kung exercises. If a Chi Kung student learned the exercise within the context of a specific Chi Kung tradition then to that student it would become a traditional exercise. The exercise does not change only the context in which it was learned. When the exercise is learned within a traditional context it is colored by the attitudes “baggage” of that tradition. When it is learned outside a specific tradition it acquires none of the superfluous attached attitudes. Under these conditions it is practiced within its purer form.

my responses have been in consideration of the request, not as a forum to expand personal preferences..

Bob!! How you “consider” the request and your “manner” of expressing it IS a reflection of your personal preference (bias)! You cannot avoid expressing anything as YOUR personal preference; neither can I or anyone else!

I respect your ideas, your perspectives and the manner you chose to express them, but don’t think it isn’t your “personal preference”.

As long as we use Qi (Chi) as a reference, i feel we are bound by its cultural implication..

This is your “personal preference”, bias. I don’t agree!

Of course, we can introduce other systems or our own non-Qi (based on cultural inference) experiences, but i think it is important that we be clear that the information presented either be tied to the initial reference of Qi, or be clearly noted as a similar reference but not specifically Qi per the classic Chinese concept..

This was clearly inferred within my post:

“This action does not require any knowledge of chi or its circulation, nor does it require any intent to cultivate, store or move chi.”

Anyone with even a cursory understanding of Chi Kung would clearly see this as contradictory to Chi Kung teachings. I intended it to be so! This fulfills your first criterion. The second to, “be tied to the initial reference of Qi” should be very clear as well since the subject of my comment is the experience of the effects of Chi!

Perhaps, i am implying that "other cultures that utilize Chi" also utilize differing terminology. As such, there is wisdom in maintaining cultural identity reference, or in asserting one's own unique reference perspective.. it offers the aspiring student valid references, without the confusion of source/result ambiguities.. once the aspiring student realizes the similarities and differences (foundational work) it is appropriate to suggest they have their own experience free of further prejudices..

I realize that we are dealing with semantics at some level, but.. i think a clear perspective is needed to advance the cause of Qi exploration.. too much ambiguity will cloud the issue

I somewhat agree with you and have acknowledged in previous posts here there are benefits of learning within a formalized system. However, it is not NECESSARY to confine a student to any specific system. Sometimes venturing outside the system creates confusion, sometimes it clears it up.

Your comments here do not directly apply to this discussion because I did not promote another system nor did I introduce any new terminology. I did ‘mention” what I perceive to be an unorthodox exercise. Your implication is that this will lead to confusion in the student and this is non-productive. I disagree!

There is benefit to confusion:

Confusion creates questions. Questions lead to searching for answers! Searching for answers leads to finding answers. Finding answers leads to an increased knowledge base which is equal to growth! Therefore, confusion leads to growth and can be seen as a GOOD thing not a bad thing! If a student becomes overwhelmed with confusion, that is a different matter. However, this is a condition that can be resolved.

Questioning is good! It is only “considered” bad if the instructor adheres to unproductive or less productive teaching methods or is embarrassed because he cannot answer the questions. Some answers to questions must be learned through experience, but that does not negate the value of the question. Questioning is the attribute of an adventurous mind seeking to know Truth and this is a Good! Venturing out creates questions within the student which increases the desire to understand. This leads to investigation and questioning of methods. If a system is fully developed and the instructor well trained and mature then questioning will provide depth to the student’s experience. If the system is not fully developed, the instructor is not well trained or mature then it will reveal the weaknesses of the method or weaknesses of the instructor to the benefit of both the student and instructor. When I teach I never discourage any type of questioning. Only the timing and underlying motivation of the question is examined and then, if necessary, redirected to a more productive time or consequence.

To me, confusion can be considered a detriment if we make an issue out of something when it is not necessary. This can be considered a detriment only because it redirects the discussion away from its original theme. On the other hand, a discussion that leads off the topic can also be considered a benefit. It can be considered a benefit because it provides opportunities to learn something new. Yin-Yang! It is good or bad according to our “personal preference!”

This present discussion is a result of comments that did not understand or accept my “personal preference”. It is this secondary discussion that, to me, risks the possibility of confusion, not the comments I originally made.

cam

10-28-2005, 05:26 AM

TaiChiBob

10-28-2005, 06:34 AM

Greetings..

Scott: To be clear...

If we promote through our teachings or attitudes “method” or “cultural” biases we encourage narrow thinking even if that is not our intention.

The reference to Qi (Chi) sets the bias in play.. At no point do i suggest a superior or exclusive method, nor do i encourage "narrow thinking".. relating the subject, Qi, to its cultural origin seems appropriate, but that's just me :) .. it seems quite reasonable to assume that cultural references do not exclude other considerations.. it simply offers a reference point relative to the subject.

As noted above, the “point” is subject to personal interpretation and biases. Yours focuses on accepted systems to achieve the result. You believe this is the easiest most productive method.

I'm not sure that is wholly accurate, re-reading my posts i don't see that i suggest that accepted systems are the easiest or most productive methods.. they are the most recognized, the most available, the most structured (repeatable, consistent).. Re-reading my posts, i note that you fail to recognize the points where i support your perspective, where i agree that your process is valid.. i am not bound by cultural reference or ideology, i am quite interested in and open to whatever experiences produce intended results..

Methodologies are merely tools used to get from point “A” to point “B”. If we attach ourselves unreasonably to the method we tend to forget its original purpose; to get us to point “B”. Which is more important, arriving at point “B” or the way I get there? Some may consider the method more important, I do not! To me; if it works, it works! I do not intended to discourage systematized learning, which is beneficial, I mean to keep in proper context that the goal of the system takes precedence over the methodology.

In this, we are in complete agreement.. it is the "preference" or "interpretation" of unreasonably" that is at question.. it seems that any suggestion of cultural methodology is viewed by you as confined thinking.. i am very comfortable with structure AND exploration.. neither exclusive to the other.

If a Chi Kung student learned the exercise within the context of a specific Chi Kung tradition then to that student it would become a traditional exercise. The exercise does not change only the context in which it was learned. When the exercise is learned within a traditional context it is colored by the attitudes “baggage” of that tradition. When it is learned outside a specific tradition it acquires none of the superfluous attached attitudes. Under these conditions it is practiced within its purer form.

Here, is an example of your own "bias", and a source of contention.. i do not assume that simply because someone learns from a system that they attach to that system.. if that has been your experience, it differs from mine.. it's just another tool.. your reference to "its purer form" is purely a personal interpretation of a personal experience, it is equally valid for another to have differing and valid interpretations.. it is my belief that it is the "experience" that has merit, not its origin, whether that origin be self-intended or systemized.. the value gained is independent of the vehicle used..

Bob!! How you “consider” the request and your “manner” of expressing it IS a reflection of your personal preference (bias)! You cannot avoid expressing anything as YOUR personal preference; neither can I or anyone else!

LOL.. i couldn't agree with you more.. but, attach an agenda to that preference and it mutates.. asserting preference is appropriate, asserting that any preference is superior to another is subject to scrutiny..

This is your “personal preference”, bias. I don’t agree!

I hope you realize i deeply respect your right to disagree, and the manner in which choose to express it.. And, we do disagree, thankfully..

Anyone with even a cursory understanding of Chi Kung would clearly see this as contradictory to Chi Kung teachings. I intended it to be so! This fulfills your first criterion. The second to, “be tied to the initial reference of Qi” should be very clear as well since the subject of my comment is the experience of the effects of Chi!

And, that is my point.. "Anyone with even a cursory understanding of Chi Kung".. we cannot avoid the cultural references when contemplating Qi, therefore.. there is a necessity to mingle the "narrow thinking" you tie to systems with the limitless potential inherent to the concept.. your intention is noted and appreciated, but.. it leaves the impression that a system is inferior to a non-structured approach, which may be true for some, not so for others.. i leave that open for the individual to determine, i only present options.. ( something i make clear at every class i teach )..

Your comments here do not directly apply to this discussion because I did not promote another system nor did I introduce any new terminology. I did ‘mention” what I perceive to be an unorthodox exercise. Your implication is that this will lead to confusion in the student and this is non-productive. I disagree!

Well, that's your perspective.. you do promote exploration outside recognized systems, which can be concieved as "your" system.. but, of more critical importance, you assert that adherence to a system is "narrow thinking" to be avoided.. my objective is to point out that it is equally possible to be completely open-minded AND adhere to systems.. i "assume", by your dialogue, that you have exposure to "systems".. and, probably have trained in "systems" (i don't know, but the assumption seems reasonable, to me).. yet, you seem equally able to think clearly.. the position you assert regarding "narrow thinking" could discourage the aspiring student from otherwise beneficial experiences in systemized Qi development.. Certainly, you comment on the beneficial potential of systemized learning, but.. more certainly, you judge it as "narrow thinking", leading to confusion of intent.. is it beneficial or, "narrow thinking" to be avoided? Is it possible, as i assert, to be assimilate the value of systems AND the wisdom of self-exploration?

This present discussion is a result of comments that did not understand or accept my “personal preference”. It is this secondary discussion that, to me, risks the possibility of confusion, not the comments I originally made.

I agree that this discussion is deviating from the intended purpose of the thread.. i disagree with the notion that your original comments don't risk the possibility of confusion.. and, i will leave it to the observer's wisdoms to sort it out..

Now, i return this thread to its original programming....

Ou Ji: In order to feel the effects of "Qi" (classical interpretation) you will need some idea of what it is you are trying to feel.. any exercise program will cause changes in physical sensations, you will need some criteria to measure your experience against.. i suggest that you research a cross-section of printed material that describes Qi and associated sensations.. compare the accounts of those sensations, look for common themes, and.. evaluate your own experiences to determine if your sensations are consistent with the common elements of others.. recognizing elements of consistency, it becomes increasingly easy to recognize Qi effects in many of the orthodox AND, as Scott suggests, unorthodox exercises in your training..

On cold days (seasonably appropriate), i use a Taoist technique if vigorous shaking of the body.. feet flat, using the quads to shake the body vertically, while keeping as much of the rest of the body as relaxed as possible.. do this for 2-3 minutes.. when you stop, stand for a moment in the WuJi posture and feel the adundant AND chaotic energies bouncing around the body.. then, 10-15 seconds later, stand in Zhuan Zhuong (tree-hugging) with the plams relaxed and facing each other 6-8 inches apart.. put your mind and intention between the palms and, with some practice and intention, you should feel the pressure of Qi building between the palms (where mind and intention are).. aside from pressure there are often tinglings and an odd sensation between the shoulders where energies are directed into the arms.. this is a simple and effective method of feeling some of the effects of Qi.. there is much more potential once you get comfortable with feeling a "Qi Ball"..

I hope this helps.. Be well, all..

shog

10-28-2005, 09:07 AM

TaiChiBob knows his stuff. As do many others on here, including cam, and scott.

Here are some of my brief thoughts on this:

----------------------------------------

Qi is, on the most simplest level, energy.

However, just around the corner we have another broad approach.

Qigong (or chi kung), is just one of many methods in which we balance mind, and body.

That is, we train our minds to be sensitive to the processes within it.

In Qigong, our focus is on the qi, and we do such through relaxation, sinking, and breathing while remaining focused on the latter, and yet nothing all at once.

As we all know, qigong, is the cultivation or study of qi. I will use the term qigong for lack of a better term throughout this post.

Neijia incorporates mostly internal aspects, whereas with weijia, the focus is on the external means by which to achieve an end result.

The trend has not only to add internal aspects to external systems, but to expand upon the understanding of what the purpose of such system is in the first place. By expanding in certain directions, we find that many weijia include neijia aspects. That is, their (instructors or systems of training) intention is for the student to achieve a level of personal awareness, by understanding, and finding the connection between their mind and body.

When we are sensitive to our bodies, we cultivate our awareness. This leads us to being able to focus on our Yi (which to me is a combination of our consciousness and our set of emotions {ie. our "heart"}). Our human spirit (not the soul), is referred to as our shen, and our shen is linked to our emotions and our mind.

When have a grasp of who we are, we then use that part of our self to lead another part, and that is qi. This is what many refer to as, "Yi leads the qi".

There is Li energy, which is tied to our muscular system. It is in abundance at birth, stablizes for a period of time, and then beings to decline as time moves us closer to death.

In some cases our Li can be limited by our own mind. Which is and example would be to say that "the body doesn't know his own strength". In other words, all things the same, there are no set limitations either from the boys mind, or from the expectations of others, to tell him otherwise. This applies to girls as well, as this is not gender specific.

Then there is jin(jing) energy. This is referenced to as an unyielding force, likened to a strong, sudden wind. Many TCM practitioners agree that there are many types of Jin energy. For example, there are three types of "Sensing Jin" (Jywe Jin), sixteen types of "Manifested Jin" (Hsing Jin) comprising active and offensive, nineteen ‘Passive Jin" (Yin, Shoou, Huah Jin), four "Neutral Jin" (Fei Gong Fei Shoou Jin) and eleven "Leg Jin" (Twe Jin).

But regardless of the terms we use, I believe that many of us agree that there are good and not so good ways to travel down a given path.

Sometimes the path takes us in different directions, and we wind up at the same destination. While other times, we take the same path, and wind up in different destinations.

Life is about the journey. It is about understanding yourself, and using what works for you to get from one point to the next. Once this journey is over, in my religious worldview, I will be judged and then begin another.

I will stop there and summarize by saying that any exercise in which you increase your awareness of your internal self and the energy within it, is a valid method so long as you do not experience any adverse effects.

There are typically four types of qi cultivation or qigong.

They are:

1. Lying

2. Sitting

3. Standing

4. Moving

To me, they are in order of least effective to more effective, but that is based upon my own testimony, and may not reflect the views of others. In Taijiquan, and Neijia, we speak in terms of testimony, rather than proof. I say this, because the mind, and the emotions both play a crucial role in understanding the philosophy and the structure behind such eastern philosophy.

I will end with that.

Good luck in your quest, as I hope others continue to contribute as well to this thread.

:)

Scott R. Brown

10-29-2005, 12:53 AM

Hi Bob,

To save space I will refer to each section I will respond to by its first few words:

The reference to Qi (Chi) sets the bias in play…

This is a fair inference, but still assumes much. I refer to water as “water” because that is the word I have been taught to use when referring that particular liquid. There is no inherent harm when I am asked about water to include additional information concerning its properties, it uses, or where to find it. The same with Chi. The word does attach itself to a specific culture, but that does not imply we should be bound to that cultural perspective.

I did not to mean to imply I thought you specifically have a superior or exclusive view of Chi, Chi Kung or anything else for that matter. My intentions were to address the superior attitude in general. I know you to be well-informed, open-minded, and flexible in your attitudes as intentions. I apologize if any of my remarks seemed to imply a direct criticism of you as having a superior attitude. I have deep respect for your views, even when i don't agree with them.

I was not intending to criticize the use of specific cultural references when discussing this topic. I intended to argue your perspective is only one view of many and that having that view is not required to understand Chi. Other views are just as valid.

Your interpretation of the original question was different than mine. So I approached the subject from a different angle than you.

I'm not sure that is wholly accurate, re-reading my posts….

Perhaps so! We all interpret information according to our own personal biases. I am no different just because I am aware of my biases.

i note that you fail to recognize the points where i support your perspective…

Please do not confuse not "referring" to points where you support my perspective with "failing to recognize" the points where you support my perspective.

I tend to not acknowledge information we agree upon for a few reasons. One is it does not further the discussion. If a discussion occurs where two parties agree then, to me, it is not a very interesting discussion. When two parties share differing views about the same subject then both parties have the opportunity to expand their understanding through the interaction.

The second reason is, my posts tend to be too long as it is, LOL!! I generally do not say anything or make any point without an accompanying commentary. This would make my posts even longer and I understand many are not inclined to want to read them when they are excessive.

i am not bound by cultural reference or ideology…

Once again most of my comments are not necessarily a direct criticism of you, but of the general attitudes many possess. I am very clear that you are open to exploration and learning in a pragmatic manner.

it seems that any suggestion of cultural methodology is viewed by you as confined thinking…

It is attachment to cultural methodologies I encourage resistance too, not the methodologies in and of themselves. It isn’t the method that creates narrow-mindedness, but the attitude an individual brings to the any specific method.

Here, is an example of your own "bias", and a source of contention.. i do not assume that simply because someone learns from a system that they attach to that system…

Neither do I assume so. I merely identify attachment IN GENERAL as a danger to continued progress. I seek to point out that attachment occurs and that it is in our best interest to avoid it. When alerted to the limiting effects of attachment an individual is better prepared to recognize it and attempt to avoid it. I don’t see how you can say you do not come into contact with it in your experience when it is prevalent in everyday life with nearly all people. It is one of the most common phenomena found in all people, myself included! Perhaps your interest in identifying it is less than mine. I would be happy on another occasion to engage in a lengthy discussion with you on the topic of attachment.

attach an agenda to that preference and it mutates.. asserting preference is appropriate, asserting that any preference is superior to another is subject to scrutiny…

A preference implies an agenda. The two are inseparable, like two sides of a coin. To discuss any topic is to argue for an agenda. Once an opinion is voiced it states an agenda and that agenda reflects our preference.

My only assertion has been that the exercise I mention is easier to practice than Chi Kung exercises and attaches less bias to the experience because it is not learned according a formalized system of practice which will define it and structure it. Thus the results are free from excessive bias which I define as a purer experience.

I think I understand your premise, which seems to be: “Without a structure to define it, we don’t really know what we have learned and cannot understand what we have learned.” I cannot argue against this, but the original question was posed by an individual with some pre-existing knowledge of Chi. The exercise mentioned would fulfill at least a part of his purpose. Results would occur relatively easily and confirm some of the anecdotes he may have heard concerning the effects of Chi. His comments seem to imply he would be more inclined to devote time and energy to the process when he has gained some certainly as to the existence of Chi. My exercise would be a relatively easy method to start that evidentiary journey.

You are certainly welcome to scrutinize, but you haven’t done so fairly. You cannot fairly comment on something you know nothing about. You may know about some forms of Chi Kung, but you know nothing about the exercise I practiced. Therefore, your comments concerning it are unfounded. It seems to me you have ruled it out as a fair measure of the existence of Chi, yet you know nothing about it. You may fairly comment upon my perspective, but not the exercise itself since you know nothing about it or its results.

I hope you realize i deeply respect your right to disagree, and the manner in which choose to express it…

I am very clear on this!

And, that is my point.. "Anyone with even a cursory understanding of Chi Kung".. we cannot avoid the cultural references when contemplating Qi, therefore.. there is a necessity to mingle the "narrow thinking" you tie to systems with the limitless potential inherent to the concept.. your intention is noted and appreciated, but.. it leaves the impression that a system is inferior to a non-structured approach, which may be true for some, not so for others.. i leave that open for the individual to determine, i only present options.. ( something i make clear at every class i teach )..

Ok, I think I understand what the issue is here!! Either I have not been clear or your personal biases have colored my comments or both have occurred. I am inclined to believe it is a little of both.

I basically agree with you’re your thesis here. I will try to clear up what I perceive to be a misunderstanding. My intention when using the term “narrow thinking” seems to be different than how you interpret my meaning. If I read your meaning correctly, you believe that to me: to follow a structured system IS narrow thinking. This is NOT what I meant to imply. To me narrow thinking is a consequence of an “emotional attachment” to any SPECIFIC system as being necessary to learn the subject in question. Narrow thinking is NOT adherence to a system. It is not systems in and of themselves, but the attitude one has towards a system. Some systems do encourgae these unhealthy attitudes we refer to these as cults!

To me everything we use to learn is a system. Our perceptions and interpretations of those perceptions adhere to a system. Systems are a valuable and necessary, we cannot do without them. Systems are the foundation of all that we know and understand. Systems are inherent to functioning of the mind.

i only present options…

Exactly!! My intention as well. If it has seemed I implied anything else I was inadequately expressing my view. To me it is all about being open to and exploring options! Structure is valuable and necessary, but, as a friend of mine said many years ago, “it should be like the tail of a kite that helps you fly rather than an anchor that weighs you down!” When our attachment to any system or structure begins to impede growth it is time to expand our perspective or stagnation occurs. (As an aside, I cannot fairly criticize stagnation either, as it is merely another process of life from which valuable lessons may be gained!) I do not seek to avoid systems; I seek to avoid unhealthy attachments to systems. After all, the attitude of “avoidance of attachment to systems” is but another system of thought.

I won’t comment on your last few paragraphs as I hope this has cleared up what to me has appeared to be a misunderstanding of my thesis.

Scott R. Brown

10-29-2005, 12:56 AM

Scott, perhaps if you were to post a thread titled, " Chi, another Cultural Perspective" you could then expand on some of your experiences.
Myself, I am ignorant of the Native American philosophy regarding a great many things!

Hi cam,

That is an excellent idea! My general inclination is to not want to start my own threads. I tend towards responding rather than initiating. I would be happy to share if you or anyone else would like to start a thread.

Scott R. Brown

10-29-2005, 01:00 AM

Hi shog,

That was a very insightful post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

imperialtaichi

10-31-2005, 11:14 PM

Hello Scott, and everyone too,

Yet again, you write to the point and open-mindedly.

We do not do standing meditation in our Tai Chi system, I believe it is harmful to do so in our method. However, there are so many ways in cultivating Qi that, if other schools advocate standing meditations, I'm all for it if they think it is beneficial.

There was a story about the Quan Zhen sect lead by Cun Yang Zhen Ren during the Sung dynasty who trained 7 students; they all became really good fighters and yet all their martial arts looked totally different! The bottom line is, there is no right or wrong way of doing something, just some methods are more effective in one thing, and other methods are more effective in something else.

I always tell my students to feel free to experience with other teachers, other martial art styles, and other methods. If they discover new ways of doing things more effective than my methods, feel free to train what is suitable for the individual. There is no one absolute right way or wrong way of doing things.

Cheers,
John

Ou Ji

11-02-2005, 04:05 AM

Another long post of mine deleted, very frustrating!

Don't know what the deal is with your posts deleting but only you and the moderators can delete them. Are you sure they're saving?

As noted above, i have no issue with the notion that an instructor is not necessary.. but, as in my last post, i feel that embarking on a journey without a reasonable concept of where you are going implies you won't know when you get there..

Someone told me once that some of the Qigong masters in China had no idea what the effects of the training would be when they started. They just practiced and eventually these weird results occurred. This is supposedly the case of the guy I met that could extend his Qi along with other anomolies.

If the results truly come from the training then it will happen whether or not you know what the results are beforehand.

Ou Ji: In order to feel the effects of "Qi" (classical interpretation) you will need some idea of what it is you are trying to feel.. any exercise program will cause changes in physical sensations, you will need some criteria to measure your experience against.. i suggest that you research a cross-section of printed material that describes Qi and associated sensations.. compare the accounts of those sensations, look for common themes, and.. evaluate your own experiences to determine if your sensations are consistent with the common elements of others.. recognizing elements of consistency, it becomes increasingly easy to recognize Qi effects in many of the orthodox AND, as Scott suggests, unorthodox exercises in your training..

Thanks for specifically addressing the question but if you understood everything I've said you would see that your response is useless.

#1 I know what others feel and sense (first part of your response)

#2 I do not have personal sensations consistent with others (second part of response)

therefore

I asked what exercises are recommended that would help me experience what others claim to experience.

Also for the record I have practiced sitting meditation in the past (well before MA training) as well as Yoga (again pre-MA and post-MA).

So I have not been limited to one method. Maybe I'm being so skeptical that I'm missing it but I would expect something more than a subtle, fleeting experience.

I believe it exists and is there within all of us but I have yet to experience anything like the claims of others.

I just returned from Japan where I had the opportunity to meet a Ki healer. She said my Ki was very strong. In light of the fact that I have no sense of my own Ki I'm inclined to think it was BS.

So the search begins.