Proof Of Chi?

[J-hon]

I've read about a lot of people who have supposedely had an experience with CHI that made them believers. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on their accounts of undeniable proof. Be it something that an instructer did to you or something you discovered yourself.

J-Hon

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php


try this site

[Ou Ji]

In my travels I ran into a Tai Chi master in China that had the ability to extend his qi into others. Of course I HAD to feel it personally so I invited him to show me.

He had demonstrated on a couple others before me so I got the weaker version. As soon as his hand was within a couple inches of my arm I felt the tingling and when he made contact I felt a stronger, cyclic jolt. It was similar to an electric shock but not exactly.

That was years ago and to this day I run it through my mind trying to figure out exactly what it was and how to describe it. It had a wave feature to it like electricity but something about it was different. It was kind of a pulsing like energy.

Even if it was electricity that would still be an amazing feat considering he didn't have any wires attached to him or any batteries in his pockets.

On the other hand I'm skeptical of all these new age qi mystics that play with qi balls and think there's nothing to it. I suspect a large number are fooling themselves. Nobody wants to admit 'I don't get it' so they go along telling their qi stories and feeling tuned in to the natural world. Kind of like TC peer pressure.

So since I've been thinking about this a lot lately I've decided to go on a Qi Quest.

J-Hon you started the thread, what are your thoughts?

[Ronin22]

I posted this in another forum but maybe the internal one is better.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38943

[TonyM.]

Life would be proof of chi.

[Sixthvenom]

I discovered it by accident, I was just holding my hands in front of me(like your holding a ball), and noticed Magnetism. I had never noticed this before so looked it up, and found out about it on a 'psi' site(I guess this could be classed as new age), but I knew it was chi(Or im pretty certain it is, im not just imagining it). I've tried it out on other people and they feel it, when I put their hand through my hands, they feel tingling, warmth, magnetism etc.. Obviously mines isn't too strong, as i only stumbled upon this a month or so ago but I practice the 8 brocades and feel tingling etc, when doing that and when im holding my crystals, I feel a pulsing energy, thats my proof of Chi. Even before i experienced it, I believed in it.. no point in not believing. :)

[Ou Ji]

It's my observation that people who are into holding crystals always feel their qi and quite a few see qi too. The fact that they take a lot of drugs too in no way diminishes the validity of their experiences of course. ;)

So have you tested or measured this magnetism in any way? How exactly did you notice this magnetism? Were metal objects attracted to your hands?

[Sixthvenom]

I don't take any drugs. :rolleyes: :)

And im relatively new to crystals too.

I just imagine a ball of energy in my hands and imagine it getting fuller and open my hands in and out and imagine compressing it when pushing the hands in. They push against each other and when you go in real close they pull together, very lightly though.. I can only get my 'Ball'(Well, I see it as strands between the hands, like I can move my hands far apart and still feel it, so its like a rainbow)so 'hard' though.. Just need more practice I guess. I haven't noticed metal being attracted to my hand but I can generate it in my hand without using the hands opposing each other and feel this magnetism against something, or I can generate it in mid air, and I feel like there is something 'on' my hand and there is lag when I pull my hand back and forth with it... It's hard to explain.

[Ou Ji]

I'm referencing people I know but from what I've seen drugs, qi balls, and crystals seem to go hand in hand.

IOW, the type of person that's attracted to one is usually attracted to the others as well.

Now as I've mentioned in another thread here somewhere I can manipulate a piece of paper under glass but I don't think that's qi. Seems more like an electrical charge with opposing fields. Nothing mystical but naturally generated and controlled by the human body.

If qi IS the natural electric field of the human body then it should be easy to measure and produce on demand. So, could qi be nothing more than the body's natural electric field that can be gathered, consolidated and manipulated within the body and extended into others?

[Scott R. Brown]

I have a number of stories that would suggest the presence of chi, however I will only share these two now.

These occurred some 25 years ago.

I was participating in a ceremony with a friend of mine who was an American Indian Medicine Man. At one point in the ceremony I was laying on my back and he was chanting and performing his actions when he placed a small crystal on my forehead on what he called a medicine wheel, but what is more commonly called the third eye. I felt pressure build up in this spot as if someone was pressing on it hard. Then the crystal started shivering and fell off. Every time he replaced it the same thing would occur. He stated he had never seen such activity before.

Another exercise we would practice is this:

Take a piece of paper and wad it up. Stand about 20 feet apart and simply throw it at each other. At that distance it is pretty hard to miss hitting the other person. But we could avoid being hit by the wad at least 80% of the time. You are not allowed to move your feet or try to avoid, parry or catch the wad. You may project your power though. We used our hands arms extended to project the power. I found I could avoid being struck more frequently then my friend. (the Medicine Man). I discovered the key was not to try to divert the wad, but to project the power toward his head trying to throw off his equilibrium. This worked much better than trying to divert the trajectory of the wad.

[Ronin22]

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything but maybe your friend just had bad aim??

Actually where the heck are you that you come in contact with a medicine man?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,

LOL!! I don’t think you are being an ass! If someone can't hit you from 15-20 feet he would be a miserable aim though, that is for sure! I am not offended as I expected someone would find a way to rationalize the exercise away. We all have healthy skepticism and we naturally try to rationalize away things we don’t understand or haven’t experienced ourselves and I am no different either. I don’t expect anyone to flat out believe me and I wouldn’t expect anyone who doesn’t know me to trust my word. But a question was posed so I responded. Those who want to believe will and those who don’t won’t and that is ok with me. I don’t believe everything others post either.

Here is another story! I got lots but just one more for now, LOL!! One day we were sitting on the couch after a ceremony. We were not talking and not moving. I felt this weird sensation and the room spun about half a turn. I didn’t move and didn’t say anything I just sat there trying to figure out what happened. My friend said, “Huh!!” I said, “What?” He said, “I just made the room spin!” I said, “Oh! I was wondering what happened!” Then we were quiet again!

I met him through a friend and we became instant friends. I was part of his family and an apprentice for some time, before I moved away.

[Doug]

I just imagine a ball of energy in my hands and imagine it getting fuller and open my hands in and out and imagine compressing it when pushing the hands in. They push against each other and when you go in real close they pull together, very lightly though.. I can only get my 'Ball'(Well, I see it as strands between the hands, like I can move my hands far apart and still feel it, so its like a rainbow)so 'hard' though.. Just need more practice I guess. I haven't noticed metal being attracted to my hand but I can generate it in my hand without using the hands opposing each other and feel this magnetism against something, or I can generate it in mid air, and I feel like there is something 'on' my hand and there is lag when I pull my hand back and forth with it... It's hard to explain.
Yes, this is difficult to describe, but I think you do a good job of it here. Describing these sensations is not easy with people who have never felt them before or are set to reject these explanations.

Doug

[Doug]

I posted this in another forum but maybe the internal one is better.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38943
This is interesting nonetheless.

[Ronin22]

Hi Ronin22,

LOL!! I don’t think you are being an ass! If someone can't hit you from 15-20 feet he would be a miserable aim though, that is for sure! I am not offended as I expected someone would find a way to rationalize the exercise away. We all have healthy skepticism and we naturally try to rationalize away things we don’t understand or haven’t experienced ourselves and I am no different either. I don’t expect anyone to flat out believe me and I wouldn’t expect anyone who doesn’t know me to trust my word. But a question was posed so I responded. Those who want to believe will and those who don’t won’t and that is ok with me. I don’t believe everything others post either.

Here is another story! I got lots but just one more for now, LOL!! One day we were sitting on the couch after a ceremony. We were not talking and not moving. I felt this weird sensation and the room spun about half a turn. I didn’t move and didn’t say anything I just sat there trying to figure out what happened. My friend said, “Huh!!” I said, “What?” He said, “I just made the room spin!” I said, “Oh! I was wondering what happened!” Then we were quiet again!

I met him through a friend and we became instant friends. I was part of his family and an apprentice for some time, before I moved away.



This was after you put down the peace pipe and before you got the munchies right? You got to admit that does sound freaky to anyone reading this. Nontheless I do think it's awesome to hear stories such as this because I do want to believe in this it's just unless I experience it for myself I will be obviously skeptical.

what do you think of Master Li who is mentioned in the website above? I just wish I had a master of qi gong such as that around here (NYC area) to experience it

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,

I understand your point! I think it is wise not to blindly accept just anyone’s claims. Believing another does not make the knowledge your own. Only when you experience it a number of times does this occur. True knowledge comes from understanding not believing!

I am pretty much unaffected by Master Li. I see no reason to not accept his claims. They seem fairly plausible although that does not mean I accept his propositions outright either. I categorize phenomena outside my direct experience as plausible, or probable if they appear to coincide remotely with other experiences I have had. I try never to say something is impossible; because too many times I have thought something impossible that in the future appeared to be possible in the light of more information!

I tend to take the attitude that the beliefs we accept affect our experience. So if I say something is impossible that may actually be possible, I will limit my opportunities to learn the truth by denying the possibility. When we experience something that exceeds our idea of what is possible we tend to react in specific ways.

1) Ignore the facts that do not coincide with our preconceived notions!
2) Redefine the facts so they will fit into our preconceived notions!
3) Expand the present belief system to include the new information!

I try to to follow the third method!

[J-hon]

So since I've been thinking about this a lot lately I've decided to go on a Qi Quest.

J-Hon you started the thread, what are your thoughts?

Ou Ji, that sounds like a great endeaver! I wish I had the motivation for such a thing. Its hard for me to devote time to "develope chi" myself when its existance has yet to be proven to me. I'm sure if I stay in the martial arts long enough I'll run into someone who can either prove or disprove it to me.

Good luck on your quest.
J-Hon

[bamboo_ leaf]

· Phenomenology of the Experience Of Qigong: A Preliminary Research Design for the Intentional Bodily Practice
By Haruhiko Murakawa, Ph.D. A Doctoral Dissertation Submitted to the Graduate Faculty Of the California Institute of Integral Studies In partial Fulfillment of the Requirement for the Degree Doctor of Philosophy San Francisco, California 2002
This study provides an experiential ground for exploring the significance of qigong as an intentional bodily practice and presents a "physiological and organic knowledge of the body" based on the metaphor of "the body as a flow of qi." This project is situated within the context of increasing interest in the body in academia, in which the Cartesian dichotomy of the body and mind is a problematic issue. In order to overcome such a dichotomy, this study proposes the significance of exploring the intentionally chosen bodily practices, and takes qigong as an example. Then, discussing some theoretical issues of body image and body schema, as well as enactive metaphor, this study also proposes a research agenda to investigate such bodily practices, based on the phenomenology of the body by Elizabeth Behnke and the philosophy of language and experience developed by Eugene T. Gendlin. Along with this agenda, this dissertation presents a phenomenology of qigong based on interviews with three practitioners, in which a variety of qigong experiences are described in three categories: 1) fundamental notions in the practice of qigong, 2) unique experiences emerging from particular styles of qigong, and 3) the discrepancy between theory and experience. Since qigong has such a variety of styles and such a large number of practitioners all over the world, the descriptions presented here are not comprehensive but exemplary, so that other researchers and practitioners can collaboratively explore and widely accumulate such descriptions.


http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/dissertations.php#Phenomenology


why not just invest a little time and real research and join the many who have already documented many of the same questions asked here.

[Scott R. Brown]

why not just invest a little time and real research and join the many who have already documented many of the same questions asked here.

Hi bamboo_leaf,

To be fair and accurate, that is not proof! It is a thesis statement for a Doctoral paper. It involves interviews that will accumulate anecdotal evidence of three practitioners and does not involve actual measurement of chi fields or their effects. Anecdotal evidence is never considered as reliable as repeatable experimentation involving the measurement of effects, qualities and quantities. While scientific experimentation is susceptible to misinterpretation of the evidence due to the limited worldview and bias of the scientist, anecdotal evidence is considered MORE susceptible to personal bias. The human mind will tend to verify as fact what it wants to be fact and ignore contradicting evidence. This makes anecdotal evidence unreliable as a scientific method for establishing proof!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My personal experiences suggest that "Qi" is a word or concept used by ancient Chinese to explain things they didn't understand or didn't have the technology to explain (even our modern technology is strained to explain "Qi").. I tend to believe that "Qi" is more like the effect generated by several bio-mechanical and quantum-physical systems acting in harmony.. Qi being the "whole", where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.. One of the problems is that many people are too eager to hold on to a "mystical" explanation when there is much that science can contribute to our understanding.. Some people cringe at the thought that science can explain their precious mystical Qi.. because i see it as the effect of multiple systems acting in harmony, i can preserve the mystical as unlimited potential generated by very real systems.. by training and cultivating the systems the effects can be altered with unlimited possibilities.. certainly, i accept the notion that, at some level, there exists a direct mind, body, spirit unity/connection that transcends "normal" experience.. and, as much difficulty as we descendants have in understanding it, imagine the awe our ancestors had when they experienced this.. That they chose the word "Qi" to describe these effects is incidental, more importantly, this concept exists in most cultural paradigms.. there is a common theme or connection across cultural boundaries, suggesting a core experience worthy of investigation and beneficial to those willing to "think outside the box"..

Qi is a uniquely Chinese explanation of the experience, but certainly not the "only" explanation and likely not the most valid, but.. it is the model we, as CMAs, have some working knowledge of.. I hope my prior posts haven't left anyone feeling that i reject alternative experiences of Qi, i do not.. i do accept many alternative experiences and alternative systems as valid "energy work" (QiGong).. Energy, without cultural bias, is a universal concept with universal applications.. and, by my understanding, one of the few transcendent foundations of the physical experience.. energy = change, and change is the only known universal constant.. without change there is stasis, no experience, no-thing... so, change is good, and.. that includes the occasional "change" of perspective..

Scott's description of an unorthodox exercise that produces results consistent with the concept of Qi is quite valid in his model of Qi, and.. very likely valid in mine and many others as well, but.. is it proof? Can you prove "love" is real? NO! Love is a set of arbitrary standards differing from person to person.. it is also a very real concept that has been the subject of writers, poets, composers, and philosophers for thousands of years.. it is the effect of biological changes and systems, it is the effect of the human psyche and its power to manifest powerful energies.. but, it is intangible, it is the effect of many systems working in harmony to achieve a greater experience than the simple sum of its parts.. So, likewise, Qi may very well be an effect produced by many systems working in harmony.. that effect, like "love", is intangible and subject to individual interpretation.. but, in either case, i think it would be foolish to suggest the effect is non-existent..

Be well...

[Judge Pen]

Here is another story! I got lots but just one more for now, LOL!! One day we were sitting on the couch after a ceremony. We were not talking and not moving. I felt this weird sensation and the room spun about half a turn. I didn’t move and didn’t say anything I just sat there trying to figure out what happened. My friend said, “Huh!!” I said, “What?” He said, “I just made the room spin!” I said, “Oh! I was wondering what happened!” Then we were quiet again!


I don't mean to be a skeptic (and for the record I believe in TaiChiBob's concept of qi) but if that *really* happened then there would be structural damage to the room, right? I mean unless you were in a house-boat at the time the room is attached to the structure which is attached to the foundation which is attached to the earth. The room could not "spin" without leaving more than anecdotal evidence that it physically moved.

Maybe it was just the couch. . . . .

[RAF]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/01/science/01prof.html?pagewanted=1&8 hpib

New York Times

November 1, 2005
Scientist At Work | Lisa Randall
On Gravity, Oreos and a Theory of Everything
By DENNIS OVERBYE

The portal to the fifth dimension, sadly, is closed.

There used to be an ice cream parlor in the student center at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. And it was there, in the summer of 1998, that Lisa Randall, now a professor of physics at Harvard and a bit of a chocoholic, and Raman Sundrum, a professor at Johns Hopkins, took an imaginary trip right out of this earthly plane into a science fiction realm of parallel universes, warped space and otherworldly laws of physics.

They came back with a possible answer to a question that has tormented scientists for decades, namely why gravity is so weak compared with the other forces of nature: in effect, we are borrowing it from another universe. In so doing, Dr. Randall and Dr. Sundrum helped foment a revolution in the way scientists think about string theory - the vaunted "theory of everything" - raising a glimmer of hope that coming experiments may actually test some of its ineffable sounding concepts.

Their work undermined well-worn concepts like the idea that we can even know how many dimensions of space we live in, or the reality of gravity, space and time.




. . . Dr. Randall is intrigued by that fact that her results, as well as other results from string theory seem to paint a picture of the universe in which theories with different numbers of dimensions in them all give the same physics? She and Andreas Karch of the University of Washington have found, for example, that the fifth dimension could be so warped that the number of dimensions you see would depend on where you were. Our own universe might just be a three-dimensional "sinkhole," she says.

"It's not completely obvious what gravity is, fundamentally, or what dimensions are, fundamentally," she said over lunch. "One of these days we'll understand better what we mean, what is the fundamental thing that's given us space in the first place and dimensions of space in particular."

She held out less hope for time, saying, "I just don't understand it.

"Space we can make progress with."

Is time an illusion?

"I wish time were an illusion," she said as she carved up the last of her chocolate bread pudding, "but unfortunately it seems all too real."

__________________________________________________ _______

Scientific careers and research involve more than empriical testing. Look how far string theory has gone without any kind of definitive empirical test.

the vaunted "theory of everything" - raising a glimmer of hope that coming experiments may actually test some of its ineffable sounding concepts.

Who knows where qi's place in line is? For now, its a useful construct inferred from the results of acupunture. It may be a helluva long time, as is the case of string theory, before its possible to construct a way to measure it. Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Looks like string theory is our modern day version of qi theory.LOL

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't mean to be a skeptic (and for the record I believe in TaiChiBob's concept of qi) but if that *really* happened then there would be structural damage to the room, right? I mean unless you were in a house-boat at the time the room is attached to the structure which is attached to the foundation which is attached to the earth. The room could not "spin" without leaving more than anecdotal evidence that it physically moved.

Maybe it was just the couch. . . . .

Hi Judge Pen,

LOL!! I am sorry! it is funny how something can be implied in one’s mind, so one never considers actually stating it.

I never meant the room actually spun physically. It was clearly a psychological state and as a skeptic myself that doesn’t mean I believe he actually made me dizzy either or made my mind spin. I don’t know what happened and it only happened once. So I don’t feel I have enough experience with the effect to come to a conclusion.

[TonyM.]

So Lisa never did the sand bucket full of water experiment as a child. How dreadful.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scientific careers and research involve more than empriical testing. Look how far string theory has gone without any kind of definitive empirical test.

the vaunted "theory of everything" - raising a glimmer of hope that coming experiments may actually test some of its ineffable sounding concepts.

Who knows where qi's place in line is? For now, its a useful construct inferred from the results of acupunture. It may be a helluva long time, as is the case of string theory, before its possible to construct a way to measure it. Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Looks like string theory is our modern day version of qi theory.LOL

Hi RAF,

My point was that anecdotal evidence does not possess the same degree of certainty as empirical testing, not that it isn’t valuable as a research protocol. In the research thesis statement referred to, the implication is, “I believe Chi exists because I talked to 3 people who believe it does and here are the effects that said they experienced”. This may correctly be called research, but it is not empirical evidence. I can just as easily find three people who believe the world is flat and record their experiences as well. This does not mean the world is flat!

I would also point out that the ideas presented by Lisa Randall are THEORIES!! That is nothing more than relatively educated guesses. Relatively here means the accuracy of the “guess” is not only variable from absolutely inaccurate, to partially accurate, to accurate, but also open to interpretation and frequent modification as well.

With a theory we start by devising a conclusion and then attempt to discover the proofs for it. Theories give us a direction to look to when investigating and help determine our research protocol. A theory generally starts with accepted facts or perceived facts and seeks to make sense of them by devising a seemingly plausible conclusion. But a theory is not proven. It is just an idea we come up with to explain what we don’t know. The theory is not considered proven until empirical evidence demonstrates its accuracy.

I agree with you! Chi is primarily known by it effects. This was the same for electricity when it was discovered. They knew it existed, they understood the effects, they could measure it in some ways, but they didn’t actually know what it was.

Lack of empirical evidence is not proof of non-existence, but neither is something so just because we want it to be. The world was still round even when it was believed to be flat.

[RAF]

Gosh, I hope I didn't sound critical of you, Scott because that was not my intention. I think your post is excellent.

Phenomenology (Existential is what I am most familiar with) really focuses on the meaning of the experience and how meaning manifests itself. A course in tradtional scientific methodolgy might only give a passing paragraph or two at best---but its focus is on the meaning that arises in the experience.

I honestly don't know if qi as an entity exists---Kevin Wallbridge, a year or so back, gave an excellent example of what qi was as defined in relationship or a property that emerges out of relationship. I don't have it but it was worth searching for here on the forum.

I just found it interesting how string theory was an acceptable academic pursuit even though it is only a theory and hasn't been tested whereas qi, as theory, would never be studied and taken seriously in say an allopathic medicial school. Imagine if I built my whole career as a professor of medicine postulating the nature of qi and its possiblities.:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi RAF,

No, I was not offended. Don't mind me. I'll comment on belly button lint if I have the time and inclination. :) I apologize myself if I seemed to take offense.

[RAF]

Me too!

Later

[Ou Ji]

I tend to believe that "Qi" is more like the effect generated by several bio-mechanical and quantum-physical systems acting in harmony..

Sowhere does Qi fit in with the other universal forces(strong, electromagnetic, weak, gravity)? Or do you believe Qi to be a fifth force?

I'm inclined to believe it falls within known physics although I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.


Can you prove "love" is real? NO! Love is a set of arbitrary standards differing from person to person..

But the physical effect of love can be measured in the human body. Are they the results of love or is love the result of those physical manifestations triggered by the brain?

Emotions can be triggered by direct stimulation of the brain. What triggers it differs from person to person but the physical manifestation is roughly the same.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ou Ji:

Sowhere does Qi fit in with the other universal forces(strong, electromagnetic, weak, gravity)? Or do you believe Qi to be a fifth force? As i stated, my "personal experience" leads me to believe Qi is an "effect", not a separate force/energy.. now, that "effect" may manipulate, control, or manifest other conditions, including the forces you mention.. but, that's only experiential speculation.. Rather than a "fifth force", maybe, it is the union of body, mind and spirit resulting in an "effect" that, when cultivated and disciplined, can offer us a tool to control of our own destinies.. Like the "effect" of music is quite powerful, using music wisely (training), we can "effect" great changes..

But the physical effect of love can be measured in the human body. Are they the results of love or is love the result of those physical manifestations triggered by the brain?And, those same measurements of physical effects can be duplicated by hate, fear, anxiety, etc... Love is simply a "word" with way too much social and religious baggage.. it is a concept, don't confuse a concept with physical processes..

Emotions can be triggered by direct stimulation of the brain.I think you should check your sources on this.. physical responses consistent with the responses of certain emotions can be stimulated in the "brain" (a physical organ).. but, it is highly unlikely that physical stimulation of the gray matter can incite the same "emotions" produced by the harmony of multi-sensory input, cognitive thought processes, and spiritual awareness.. to concieve of the physical stimulation of the brain as inciting "emotions" is a bit like "looking at the finger" rather than that to which it points.. too many people confuse "brain" and "mind", the mind is our unique individual identity which is interfaced through the "brain".. Compassion is, by my accounting, a most powerful and primal "emotion", compassion can motivate someone to sacrifice their lives for others.. i have not seen any studies suggesting that we can stimulate the "brain" to produce such a powerful rendition of "compassion"..

Sometimes, it is as simple as just "doing it".. as difficult as "trying" to do it..

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

As i stated, my "personal experience" leads me to believe Qi is an "effect", not a separate force/energy..

My experience was with a definite energy so your descriptions are too vague for me. Now that energy force either falls into one of the four basic categories or it's a fifth force.


now, that "effect" may manipulate, control, or manifest other conditions, including the forces you mention..

So then Qi could possibly be the Intent which condenses and controls the body's electomagnetic force?

Then Qi would not be an energy but a thought process (Intent). Qi would not follow Intent, it IS Intent. What follows Intent would be the body's natural electromagnetic energy. As awareness is brought around the body, EMF collects and moves around with the thought. But how does thought trigger the release of EMF from the cells and how does it propegate through the body?


And, those same measurements of physical effects can be duplicated by hate, fear, anxiety, etc... Love is simply a "word" with way too much social and religious baggage.. it is a concept, don't confuse a concept with physical processes..

I don't think the physical effects of Hate and Love are the same. They certainly don't feel the same therefore the combination hormonal release and associated electrochemical 'feeling' are different.


I think you should check your sources on this..

I think so too. Just speaking from vague memory so I could be wrong.

[miscjinx]

I've read about a lot of people who have supposedely had an experience with CHI that made them believers. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on their accounts of undeniable proof. Be it something that an instructer did to you or something you discovered yourself.

J-Hon

Many years ago, my original tai chi instructor performed a basic chi disruption on me. He did not touch me, he just passed his hands over me and I was physically weaker. I witness him and my karate teacher do this to several people over a year or so. I learned to do it and I've performed it successfully on others.

Often when I do it, I have the demonstratee close their eyes and I don't tell them what I am going to do. I test their strength a few times, so they don't know when I do the disruption. At some point I do it and they are weaker. I continue testing, and they are weak. Then I do the restoration and they are stronger (usually about 80-90% recovered, it needs time to sort itself out fully). And then I tell them to open their eyes and I tell them what I did and what witnesses saw.

This is pretty undeniable to me - to witness, to experience, and to replicate it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Herein lies the problem with determining the existence of Chi. The evidence is always something you feel, and not really measurable through any objective method. It is subjectively determined and therefore colored by what one WANTS to feel or see. Subjective experiences are always open to various interpretations. Something that counts as confirmation to one may not be all that impressive to another.

For myself I look at Chi rather neutrally. It may exist, or it may not. What I care about is how it will affect me in my daily life. I ask myself what are the reported benefits weighed against the cost in time and effort to perform the proscribed exercises. I have found the reported effects are not enough to be of any significant measurable benefit. The same benefits may be acquired much more quickly through other activities that have definite measurable results.

It serves no practical useful purpose in everyday life to make a prepared or psychologically conditioned student to fall over or feel sudden weakness as is performed in demonstrations. Neither is it excessively impressive to combust paper with Chi nor make someone feel warmth projecting from ones hand, or to take a few minutes to prepare oneself to be kicked in the groin. These are nothing more than parlor tricks that have no useful daily application. Chi Kung practitioners do not live exceptionally longer than those who merely eat well and exercise their minds and bodies.

If Chi is influenced, directed and concentrated by the mind and if Chi flow is affected by states of mind, then developing a healthy mental condition or state of being is what appears to be the most beneficial means of balancing ones Chi, not artificial cultivation. Chi follows principles of Tao. As such it follows the naturally occurring balance of Yin-Yang. If we learn to not impede the natural occurring flow of Chi than it will find its own natural balance within us of its own accord. We will never find ourselves to be wanting of it outside of the alternating flow of its own natural Yin-Yang rhythm.

Under these conditions, if one develops a calm mind, Chi will find its own natural level and will flow unimpeded throughout the body according to its natural rhythm. Following this principle, to actively cultivate, store and channel Chi using artificial exercises may be viewed as occurring outside the natural flow of Tao. It would be similar to the storing of water behind an artificial dam. When this occurs we know the habitats downstream and above the dam are artificially altered causing these ecosystems to be out of their natural balance.

When Chi flows according to its nature, without impedance or interference from our ego-centric need to cultivate and focus it, benefits arise naturally according to Chi’s inherent principles. Therefore, it is reasonable to question whether the cultivation of Chi using artificial exercises is the most beneficial or effective means of developing and utilizing it effects.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


If Chi is influenced, directed and concentrated by the mind and if Chi flow is affected by states of mind, then developing a healthy mental condition or state of being is what appears to be the most beneficial means of balancing ones Chi, not artificial cultivation. Chi follows principles of Tao. As such it follows the naturally occurring balance of Yin-Yang. If we learn to not impede the natural occurring flow of Chi than it will find its own natural balance within us of its own accord. We will never find ourselves to be wanting of it outside of the alternating flow of its own natural Yin-Yang rhythm. A most insightful perspective!! and the following paragraphs by Scott are worthy of sincere consideration!! Perhaps, a moderated perspective on Qi cultivation might be worthwhile.. i find it useful to "cultivate" my garden, to nourish it, to care for it.. similarly, i find it useful to "cultivate" my "Qi".. but, here we are in complete agreement regarding ego-based manipulation.. excepting the occasional need to accentuate healing.. Qi, as described by the classics, should manifest as needed when needed, and.. manipulation should, by definition, be detrimental to its highest potential..

A personal favorite of mine is the following short prose: " A boulder falls in the river, the river changes course.. " still today, i marvel at the simple wisdom in that phrase..

Thanks, Scott.. Be well, all..

[Scott R. Brown]

We may compare Chi cultivation to a plant growing in a garden. For plants, all we need do is provide the healthiest environment for the plant to grow; water, sunlight, fertile soil, and protection from weeds and pests is what is necessary. These ingredients provide the opportunity for the plant to grow according to its natural processes without impediment. The inherent process of plant growth will occur naturally according to the nature of the plant when a healthy environment is provided. When cultivating Chi the same principles apply. By providing the most beneficial environment for Chi development to occur Chi will be stimulated on its own without need of specific activities or forced intentions.

Since activity of itself stimulates Chi, there is no need to avoid specific actions or activities. It is the idea that “special” activities are necessary that creates misunderstanding. Special activities are not necessary! This is not to say that activities are not beneficial. There is a difference between beneficial and necessary! Actions stimulate Chi, therefore actions are beneficial.

It is emotional imbalance and the attitude of “TRYING” to stimulate Chi that provides the greatest impediments to Chi’s natural flow. Emotional imbalance creates barriers within our mind that are expressed in our body and these create blockages of Chi flow. “TRYING” to stimulate Chi is similar to an attitude of “trying to push a river”. Rivers flow according to their own rhythm and nature, as does Chi. Pushing the river forces the water to overflow its banks and causes disturbances outside of the natural rhythms of the river, as does Chi when un-naturally forced. Just as an artificially pushed river may create unanticipated damage, so may un-naturally forced Chi cause unanticipated consequences.

The key is to learn to stay “out of the way” of Chi’s natural process, allowing it to flow according to its nature, while also creating the most beneficial environment for it to strengthen according to its own nature. This is accomplished most effectively by eliminating impediments rather than trying to make it or force it to increase. “TRYING” to develop Chi is as futile as “TRYING” to make a plant grow faster. All we can do is provide the healthiest environment possible to allow the plant to grow according to its nature and so with Chi. As a wise gardener benefits from larger, healthier crops when applying husbandry according to the nature of the plant, so a Chi Kung practitioner also benefits by cultivating Chi in accordance with Chi’s inherent principles.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Again i agree.. my reference to cultivation was intended to "provide the healthiest environment".. key to this is "provide", an intended action.. "healthiest", an assessment based on judgement of past experience.. so, to "provide the healthiest environment " has no implication of "TRYING" to increase Qi.. i don't plant corn in shade, and.. i don't expect Qi to find its natural potential without some intended management of my personal resources.. and, like any natural resource, we are stewards of the bounty.. (as in, "don't cast pearls before swine")..

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

But you're talking about the body's natural balance of Qi, not the overabundence that's required for exceptional benefits. That's like saying let your daily physical activity provide all your workout needs.

In some instances the nominal amount is fine and more or less is a detriment. But in others there are benefits in more. Eating a balanced diet is great for the body but a higher intake of Vitamin C provides a significant improvement.

As MA's we are continually pushing further to the extremes of physical ability so why would we accept nominal Qi cultivation?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

Good post! I agree!

It was not my intention to comment on your post as much as add to my own. My most recent post was inspired by you own, but not actually a response!

Intent should not be confused with "TRYING". It is like swimming in a river. If I intend to move to the bank, I may swim according to the river's nature (with the current) or against the river's nature (against the current). The efficacy of my actions is determined by the choice I make.

Hi Ou ji,

That implication was not my intent.

It is my belief there is no real need for over-abundance. If my strength increases due to weight training the result is not an over-abundance of strength it is an enhancing of my strength potential that results. The same applies for Chi Kung training.

It is not the actions, but the attitude or frame of mind I am primarily concerned with here!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


But you're talking about the body's natural balance of Qi, not the overabundence that's required for exceptional benefits. I will agree with Scott, that the maximum benefits of Qi are available in its "natural balance", even the classics warn against "overabundance".. to contemplate "overabundance" as beneficial is to not have a well-rounded concept of Qi's natural potential.. TCM routinely cautions against overabundance as a contributing factor to health problems, and.. health problems will diminish the maximum benefit of Qi. Physical training is like improving the roads we drive on.. the body is the "road" through which Qi travels.. the better maintained the "roads" are, the better and more expressively our natural balance of Qi can be manifested.. I have met no one capable of maximizing their natural balance of Qi, not to mention the wise use of an "overabundance".. My experience suggests that a well trained physique (not an over-bulked specialized specimen) can allow Qi to naturally rise to any needs, if they let it do so.. forcing or contriving Qi, seems only to confine its potential..

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

Since everyone's natural abilities are different it would seem that the natural Qi level in each pperson would be different as well. To allow it to reach it's steady state would mean that some would have more than others. In that case the ones with more would not benefit over the ones with less?

Is Qi completely different from other physical traits? We workout to increase strength and speed and reach our maximum potential and sometimes push the limits of physical ability. Why would you not want max Qi potential as a goal?

I'm all for balancing the body but generally in MA you don't want just a natural balance but a balanced increase in all attributes, speed - strength - coordination, etc.

In my Qi experience the master was weakened by the exchange. Wouldn't a larger amount benefit him?

Why cultivate and gather if you don't want a full supply?

It just seems that many MA's go beyond their natural state, which is the purpose of training in the first place, so an increase in Qi over your baseline would seem a neccessity.

I'm sorry but I just can't see it as a steady state thing. Who wouldn't want more energy, more life?

BTW, I agree that too much of anything can be bad, Qi included. The goal would be the maximum possible before adverse effects become apparent.

Oh, and there may not be a real need for overabundance (probably should have picked another word) but there could be a want for it. There's no real need for a Corvette but I'd still like to have one.

And as these masters cultivate and build up their Qi they discover some interesting physical anomalies. Things that just don't happen under normal circumstances. You aren't the least bit interested in exploring this?

[Ou Ji]

Let me get a few things straight before we go on with this because I feel like I've used a bad choice of words and possibly gone in the wrong direction. By overabundance I mean above the norm or baseline level.

When speaking of Qigong we're talking about Qi cultivation. By that do we mean increasing amount of Qi or just making it stonger?

I've been discussing this from an increased quantity of Qi POV. I suspect it may be a matter of increasing the quality of Qi. Comment?

We have pure Qi that we're born with and we also gather impure Qi from the air we breathe. This new impure Qi is then (somehow) purified and combined with out pure Qi. This would indicate an increase in Qi quantity unless there is a Qi drainage in our everyday life. In that case we would be replenishing the depleted Qi. Comment?

If Qi is depleted during the life cycle then would our pure born Qi be gone early in life or are pure and unpure Qi seperate entities?

I was introduced to a Qi healer in Japan who commented that I had very strong Qi. Would that mean my Qi is at the natural level for my body or is it stronger than average? If it's stronger then are you saying that's detrimental to health?

If I were ill my Qi level would probably be low. If I were cured my Qi level would rise OR I could raise my Qi level therefore effecting the cure. Correct?

Wouldn't that be an overabundance of Qi beyond the natural level for my health? Would it not be beneficial to shoot for an overabundance of Qi so it could heal the illness?

Sorry for the overabundance of questions. :D

[imperialtaichi]

Wouldn't that be an overabundance of Qi beyond the natural level for my health? Would it not be beneficial to shoot for an overabundance of Qi so it could heal the illness?



Hello Ou Ji,

Think of it this way: we are like sponges absorbing water from the enviroment. We are constantly absorbing and losing Qi. Of course we could end up absorbing bad Qi, but we can also replace bad ones with good ones just like a sponce rinsing itself.

When sponge can dry out, just like we slowly lose our Qi, or our ability to hold the Qi. When the sponge is fully soaked, you can think of it as the Qi is strong.

However, problems occurs when the sponge is dry but you force water into it. The sponge can then be bursting with water in some parts, yet dry in other. This is the problem with overabundance of Qi.

My advice is, just let it soak, let it be, and you will get just the right amount of Qi whether you feel it or not.

Cheers,
John
(the wisdom according to "Spongebob Squarepants" :-D)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi imperialtaichi,

That was a very good metaphor!

Hi Ou Ji,

Your idea that everyone has their own individual level or amount of Chi is most likely accurate. However, it is how we utilize it that is important. I like to use Michael Jordan as an example. When he was in high school he was a second string basketball player and was once even cut from the team. His potential was present regardless of whether he had developed it or not. Through a confluence of ability, hard work and intent Jordan became the best basketball player in the world. We do not say Jordan had an over-abundance of basketball ability, we say he approached his full potential.

Applying this to Chi, we each have our own inborn potential. We may engage in activities, mental and physical, that develop this inborn ability. The result is not extra Chi that others do not have access too. The result is more efficient access to our naturally occurring Chi potential.

Try to think of Chi Kung training not as increasing ones Chi, but as removing impediments to the free circulation of Chi. The end result is unimpeded Chi flow. From a specific POV it appears we have more Chi, but we are misinterpreting the effects.

The confusion is created by how we choose to view the result. I practice activities and I perceive an increase in Chi. But I do not realize that the increase is not due to an increase in some kind of substance as in the example of “a bigger muscle (more substance) means greater strength” or “a bucket increases in size and therefore holds more water”. With Chi it is as imperialtaichi and TaiChiBob have indicated, we are clearing the pathway for more efficient circulation.

It is similar to atherosclerosis. Plaques build up inside our blood vessels and reduce the amount of blood flow. When we eliminate the plaques the blood flows more efficiently without the impediment. The result is more blood flow, but I haven’t actually increased the amount of blood available I merely eliminated the impediments to its free flow. It appears as if there is more blood, there isn’t, there is merely more available for use. So as you have indicated the result is increase or enhanced “quality” of Chi, not increased “quantity”!

If you are ill it can be said that you have a low amount of Chi or an over-abundance of Chi, this may be caused by decreased circulation due to blockage (causing over-abundance in one organ while leaving another depleted), or depleted Chi due to over-stress caused by illness, excessive activity or emotional imbalance. Your return to health is effected by replenishing your Chi through treatment of the illness and rest. Chi Kung may facilitate the return to balance by reducing internal blockages (impediments). However, this should be viewed as reducing or clearing the blockage as opposed to forcing Chi past a blockage. Forcing Chi may increase injury to the system. The idea that illness is caused by too much Chi or too little Chi within an organ should not be confused with over-abundance. The over-abundance is localized to the specific area affected and not systemic to the body. It occurs due to impediments to Chi flow and is not determined by storage capacity.

As far as the interesting anomalies, they are just not for me. I take a pragmatic view. I ask myself, “What is the perceived or potential benefit weighed against the cost in time and effort?” As I mentioned previously I personally don’t see any long term benefits that may not be gained using more pragmatic and proven methods. I see no practical everyday benefit to tossing a student across the room with Chi or making someone feel warmth emanate from my hands. Chi Kung practitioners do not live appreciably longer than others who merely eat properly, get exercise and stay mentally active. This is not intended to discourage you are anyone else from those pursuits. I am merely saying they are not a practical use of “my” time. That does not mean I do not engage in Chi Kung activities either, just that my purpose is not to achieve unusual abilities. I am sure I perform activities that others may not feel are a practical use of their time as well. What is important is, do the activities have meaning to you?

Keep in mind that skills do not automatically confer wisdom or insight. A skill is merely a skill and nothing else. In MA we tend to confuse skill with wisdom and insight. The two are not directly connected. A person considered a “Master” in the MA is frequently believed to possess wisdom and insight, but skills do not confer mastery of oneself. The two may be present in one person, but wisdom and insight do not result as a natural consequence of skill training. If this were so we could say that mastery of "any" skill (i.e. Jordan and basketball) would result in wisdom and insight in the practitioner.

[shadowlin]

I've read about a lot of people who have supposedely had an experience with CHI that made them believers. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on their accounts of undeniable proof. Be it something that an instructer did to you or something you discovered yourself.

J-Hon

the first pre-requisite to having an experience is to abandon your doubt. you don't have to believe. you only have to know you don't know anything for certain.

once you do that, you will progress in leaps and plateaus.

But the day you feel the absolute gravity of your chi sinking you into the Earth, or that you feel a cold electricity creep up your back or down your face, or that you feel an energy "ball" (I prefer field) between your hands is the day you abandon your questions and begin to wonder, "what else don't I know about ch'i"?

Something else to think about, is that it's been scientifically linked to heat, magnetism, and your metabolism. The best way to scientifically understand ch'i is likely to see it as a larger view of things that doctors have for so long tried to divide. Your body is made up of systems, yes, but they act as a whole, not as a part. Without the nerves, there is no ch'i. Without the lungs, blood, digestive tract, etc... it cannot exist.
It is the raw, untapped power of your mind that enables you to command your body to do remarkable things. To tap that power, you must rid yourself of paradigms and societal molds that will formulate opinions and keep you from going to the edge of your reality. Be uncomfortable with your understanding of the world, and you will go there.

Good luck.

[Ou Ji]

shadowlin
One of the things I'm trying to determine is if Qi is a seperate force from the four basic forces in nature. Or does it fall within the bounds of one of the four?

I'm kind of leaning towards the latter however if that were true then it should be easily measured. I'm trying to find it without the mubo jumbo mysticism which is difficult.

You really don't need to abandon doubt because it's real and can be experienced by skeptics. It's not a belief system or hypnotism or suggestion.

I've tried the Qi ball between my hands and all I feel is a little heat when my palms are close. Totally expected, especially since my hands and feet are extremely warm most of the time.

Sorry but I think there's more imagery and delusion out there than there is the real thing.

The sponge analogy sounds nice but that would assume the natural, unimpeded, balance to be saturation. If this were true then why do the Monks etc. have to pool their Qi into the part of their body they intend to break with (as in iron body demos)? How does it collect in the cavities if the body is saturated? Just isn't making logical sense to me.

Scott R. Brown
If Qi reaches it's full potential only in a completely healthy body (no stoppages, impediments, etc.) then wouldn't babies possess buku Qi? Then we go downhill from there?

Think that's why ancient history portrays individuals living 800 years instead of 80 like in the Bible?

Thanks for being patient with me guys and don't get upset with my skeptical attitude. I think that's the best way to approach a subject like this.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps.. it is a "fifth force" comprised of the four forces.. the most troublesome concept of Qi, is.. Qi.. there is no agreed upon definition, any number of effects can and are attributed to Qi.. I personally see it as an "effect", a tangible measureable "effect".. but, so mundane that people discount its simplicity.. for me, Qi is the effect of the harmony of body, mind and spirit as it combines to manifest a living, self-aware, self-conscious being.. further, it is this living being that benefits from the "Qi Effect". For me, "Qi" is life, to whatever degree i can enhance it, improve it, share it, celebrate it.. it benefits me and others.. Life, is an undefineable substance, it can't be put in a jar along with the other elements and compounds that make up our flesh and bones.. somehow, we need to appreciate the "mysticism" of our ancestors while knowing that there are distinct ways to improve the quality and quantity of our Lives.. I hope we never fully understand and define Qi.. life needs to be more than a set of equations..

Be well..

[shog]

Qi in English is often spelled as chi. The Japanese form is ki.

Qi is a fundamental concept of everyday Asian culture or philosophy, most often defined as "air" or "breath" and, by extension, "life force" or simply put, just "energy" that is part of everything that exists.

In regards to the Martial Arts and physical health: The overall effectiveness of qi is directly related to posture, (whether moving or stationary), breathing techniques, and mental focus.

Qi is the conceptual layer of understanding that practitioners place upon the actual physiological activity relating to the movement of the various types of biological or chemical energy within the body. Essentially, using mental focus, relaxation, and posture, practitioners create a link between their mind, and that of their body, through various training methods - in order to become more sensitive to the internal processes taking place throughout their own physical being.

Acupuncture and acupressure, both work by distracting from or adding to, the pain stimuli passed through to the nervous system. These procedures help stimulate the manufacture of endorphins, which are the body's own opiates. There are many low level electrical processes occurring. Use of these pressure points have been shown as being able to affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes that regulate a person's blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature.

Western science is working toward an actual understanding of the qi or energies involved.

Everyday activities such as walking, or stair climbing, along with swimming, aerobics, and Martial Arts may also aid in the flow of these various types of bioelectrical energies through the pathways leading to and from the Central Nervous System, and along the path of the many pressure points within the body.

Based upon science's own inability to measure the many different types of energy involved, qi will inevitably become more categorized over the next few decades, as we get more precise instruments to measure those types of bioelectrical changes.

During this time, there will be a more scientific based understanding of qi, rather than many of the unfounded mystical or religious reasons we see in place today.

I posted the above to answer-bag.com, but feel that a further explanation is also warranted.

Quite often, it is our approach to understanding the healing properties of Taijiiquan, which leads us down the wrong path. One must do their best to not over complicate things.

In order to make things more understandable, I am going to show that Taijiquan or Traditional Chinese Medicine are concerned with the bodies natural function to heal itself.

Right now, what do we know about how the body heals itself?

Well, we know that physical activity, proper diet, sufficient sleep, and a positive mental outlook have a direct effect on how our body heals itself.

The most important ingredient is sleep.

While sleeping our body does the following, on a natural level, in order to bring itself back to an acceptable level of homeostasis.

According to most research on brain activity and sleep disorders, we find the following information:

Basically, when we look at sleep, it can be categorized into two types:

1. Rapid eye movement (REM)

2. Non-REM.

Brain research has taught us that we go through 5 stages of sleep 4 or 5 times each night, each cycle lasting between 60 and 90 minutes.

The first two stages take up nearly 50% of the total sleep time and are called light sleep.

During these early stages of sleep, muscles relax and brain wave frequency slows to 4-8 cycles per second.

Blood pressure and body temperature decline.

We are easily awakened during this period.

We get a "good night's sleep" the more we find ourselves in stages 3 and 4 during the sleep process.

At some point, brain wave activity slows to less than 4 cycles per second.

Muscles become totally relaxed and metabolic rate reaches its lowest level. Stages 3 and 4 not only give us the feeling of being fully rested but also seem important to healing, fighting infections, tissue repair, etc.

The body's growth hormone is also released during this time.

This is why children who are deprived of adequate sleep for long periods of time do not grow as fast or as tall as they should.

Stage 5 consumes between 20 and 50% of your total sleeping time.

It is referred to as REM sleep. The first REM cycle typically starts 90-100 minutes after falling into sleep.

Heart rate and blood pressure fluxuate considerably during this period. Breathing quickens and brain waves pulsate between 13 and 35 cycles per second.

REM sleep is the period when dreams occur.

Dreams appear important for both learning and cognitive function.

REM cycles become larger and more intense at the end of the night.

Disruptions of sleep during this stage can be disruptive to the learning process.

What else does sleep do for us?

Before awakening, the secretion of a stress hormone called cortisol begins, which increases mental and physical arousal in preparation for the day's activities.

Inadequate sleep can reduce thinking efficiency, cause a wide range of concentration problems and negatively affect coordination and reaction time. Many people become irritable and feel stressed when normal sleep cycles are disrupted.

People also report more headaches, pain and illness during periods of sleep deprivation. Anxiety and poor self-image are also reported consequences. So, inadequate sleep influences job and athletic performance, safety and causes social phobia.

The result is less efficiency and less productivity.

Chronic sleep deprivation also impacts life expectancy. People getting optimum sleep and following other healthful habits live longer.

Think of qi, as the sum of those different energy based processes. During sleep, our brain is connected with our body on a much higher level of awareness.

----------------------

Now to the effects of Taijiquan:

In one study, published in Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, volunteers age 58 to 70 who practiced Taiji roughly five days a week showed a 15 to 20 percent improvement in aerobic capacity and knee strength after one year.

In a second study, presented at a meeting of the American Heart Association, older volunteers with elevated blood pressure who did Taiji for 12 weeks lowered their systolic blood pressure (the upper number) by 7 mm Hg – nearly as much as those who did a moderately intense aerobic-exercise program of walking and low-impact aerobics.

Also, Conventional Medical studies have shown that Taijiquan has had a moderate positive effect on the following as well:

- The Cardio-Vascular System
- The Respiratory System
- The Digestive System
- The Skeleto-Muscular System

Generally speaking, Taijiquan benefits all systems of the body. The immune system, which helps the body to fight invading disease and cleans up abnormal cells, which are the precursors of cancer, is another good example.

In 1989 in Dallas, Texas, a research team showed that moderate exercise, such as obtained from walking or swimming will improve many aspects of health, including the immunological system.

Taijiquan, so far as being a physical activity, should be considered to be an entirely suitable form of exercise for achieving improved immunological activity.

All other systems of the body are geared to working more harmoniously and effectively with regular exercise.

Since Taijiquan takes time to master, we should now understand why.

Since we are attempting to train our mind and body to do things, that normally, it does during the sleeping process.

When the major systems, such as the cardiovascular and respiratory systems, are working well then the repair and maintenance of other systems also functions well.

Most practitioners, and onlookers agree, that practicing Taijiquan improves metabolism, and also the regenerative capacity of the body.

Taijiquan, and TCM, at their very core involve the same energy movement, and mental state, as that of sleep.

Another possible theory that proves Taijiquan is related to sleep, is the fact that many experience a higher state of mental relaxation, which when compared the mental stages of sleep, we find that the brain wave activity is remarkably similar.

This could give account as to the enlightened feeling people get, or the first stages of nirvana that people attempt to get, by relaxing their mind and body.

This further takes Taijiquan away from the mystical or spiritual, and places it into the simple physiological realm of our bodies existence.

I believe that more studies linking Taijiquan with the natural functions of sleep are warranted.

:)

I have read extensively on this subject matter, and now post some more of my thoughts on this, along with notes taken from those who have also written about these two topics, which are in color.

[imperialtaichi]

This further takes Taijiquan away from the mystical or spiritual, and places it into the simple physiological realm of our bodies existence.



Over simplification of Taijiquan and other Qi related practices such as acupuncture with simple western science physiology is in my opinion not a good thing. I have basic western medical training and traditional acupuncture training and Taiji training and I can clearly see that there are many phenomenon that cannot be explained using western science alone. However, I do agree that further scientific study is needed, but we may have to alter the current model on behaviour of energy and matter.

Cheers,
John

[Ou Ji]

Perhaps.. it is a "fifth force" comprised of the four forces..

Sorry, doesn't really make sense. A Unified Field Theory would make it THE force that the other four belong to and not a Fifth Force. A Fifth Force implies a distinct difference from the other four.


Essentially, using mental focus, relaxation, and posture, practitioners create a link between their mind, and that of their body,

That implies the lack of a link between mind and body and that just isn't true at all. There seem, IMO, to be different layers of mind/body links. Maybe enhancing the link or creating a new higher level link is more appropriate.

I think the link between Taiji and sleep is found in brainwave frequency. TJ is basically a meditative state.


but we may have to alter the current model on behaviour of energy and matter.

I think only in a Fifth Force scenerio.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The unified field theory is really the most plausible.. there is a single basic force/energy that manifests itself as necessary to obey the structure of consciousness (creation).. matter is simply energy vibrating at frequences that manifest form shape and mass.. within that model, consciousness, properly disciplined, can manipulate the basic energy however it chooses.. The Heisenburg experiments demonstrate that, at the particle physics level, the observer influences the observation in accordance with the beliefs they hold as true.. Rather than searching for more forces, like a 5th force.. maybe we should be seeking a "source force"..

Be well..

[shog]

My point was that there was similarities between what is attempted while practicing Taijiquan, and those natural effects or benefits of sleep.

Both of these have been studied separately, but should be studied side by side.

I do not believe we need to over-complicate things. Rather we simply need to understand that we are engaging the bodies natural healing process, while awake.

This doesn't mean we need to over-simplify either.

Mankind continues to seek out information in regards to the physiology of the brain, the absolute purpose and function of our hormonal system, along with out immune system.

As a believer in God, and in Christ, I seek to only know that which we need to know, or were meant to know in order to live our lives in a natural way.

I do not necessarily see western medicine (or science) as the key factor, in the natural order of all things.

So, yes I agree that there will be things, that quite frankly we will not be able to put down onto paper, and should just leave them to their own natural design.

As a theist, I am not a follower of human level spirituality. I do feel that spirituality, other than that granted to us by God, is what we make it.

Further, I believe that certain things in the cosmos or universe remain separate from man, and that we are not granted any commonality among those things which remain aloof from our existence.

Humans are subjects within a larger design. One that ultimately leads to one absolute.

We have our own physical absolutes, and then we are granted a wide range of subjective or relative paradigms in which we live in, and evolve from throughout our daily lives.

The energy of life, that subjective essence that exists within the framework of the our physical self, is part of the human experience. It's not metaphysics, nor mysticism, nor is it spiritual. It just is. We know this, for it begins to work on a level somewhat measurable, while we sleep.

However, in order to fully grasp just what that is on a personal level, it takes a lifelong commitment, geared toward becoming as aware as you possibly can of what is going on within your own body, and mind while you are awake.

"Essentially, using mental focus, relaxation, and posture, practitioners create a link between their mind, and that of their body, "


That implies the lack of a link between mind and body and that just isn't true at all. There seem, IMO, to be different layers of mind/body links. Maybe enhancing the link or creating a new higher level link is more appropriate.

I think the link between Taiji and sleep is found in brainwave frequency. TJ is basically a meditative state.

I agree, the word 'create' is a poor choice. Perhaps "expand the links", or "become more aware of the various links" are better phrases. Or what you said regarding such, is also plausible.

We agree that there is much going on, and to put it down into words, would do it no justice, and in some ways, tend to limit the concepts involved.

:)

Just more of my own philosophy and viewpoints on this.

Others will vary.

Later!

[imperialtaichi]

And sometimes we just cannot explain biochemistry to monkeys :)

I am a monkey, I can only understand bananas. I eat, I feel good, thats all I know. I may not understand why it works, I just enjoy the bananas!

We may never understand everything in the universe. We are just monkeys with bigger brains.

cheers!
John

[shog]

;)

I see where you're coming from!

:D

[cbishop]

Greetings..
..there is a single basic force/energy that manifests itself as necessary to obey the structure of consciousness (creation).. matter is simply energy vibrating at frequences that manifest form shape and mass.. within that model, consciousness, properly disciplined, can manipulate the basic energy however it chooses..
Be well..

bob you've either been smoking my herbs or reading the same books i have.
master al walee muhammad just wrote a book that may interest you.
"conversations with the master" at http://www.transitionsinternalarts.com/index2.html
delves into this topic quite a bit, and if you talk to the author about it, i know
for a fact that he will further expound on the ideas within.

[shog]

matter is simply energy vibrating at frequences that manifest form shape and mass.. within that model, consciousness, properly disciplined, can manipulate the basic energy however it chooses..

This is yet another simply way of looking at things...

:)