Tong Bei and Mantis??

[mpossoff]

Hi group,

There seems to be aLOT of simalarites between the 2?

Right or wrong?

Marc

[mantis108]

Straightly personal opinion and all my usual caveats applied:

I believe that Tongbi/Tongbei is more apparent in the Seven Stars line in recent time; while Fanzi seems to be quite influential in the Greater Meihwa line (GML) started by Liang Xuexiang (1810 - ? CE). In Liang Xuexiang's Tanglang, which I would call Classical Tanglang, there is Xi Da Ji Gong (accumulate merits through practices). This concept-precept is also shared by Fanziquan which regard their basic move "Yi Bu San Chui" (one step 3 punches) as the mother of all forms. Their "Xi Da Ji Gong" (although they don't have a term for that) pretty much begins with that move. Yi Bu San Chui is also very important throught out the GML as far as I am aware. In that, you will find the black tiger steals heart punch as well.

Just some thoughts

Regards

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Mike Martello Laoshi is very adament that Long Fist is the father, and Tongbei the mother of Mantis. When he plays you see why.
Jake :D

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hong Tong Tong Bei, thats one of the 18 style that make for Mantis.
After Sun Tai Tzu Long Fist, it's the next most important root of Mantis.

[Three Harmonies]

Another good post Sal! That is exactly what Martello Laoshi stated, only I could not put it as nicely as you did. Thanks.
Jake :D

[mantis108]

The 18 families sonnet has been researched by Mainland scholars (ie Chang Dali) and it is believed that it could be based on other Ming dynasty martial arts or military arts documents (ie Ji Xiao Xin Shu).

There is also a Qing dynasty record that suggests Neijia Quan (internal pugilism) might have been Tongbi/Tongbei Quan and was introduced to the imperial palace ground by Song Taizu who took his personal guards, mostly from Szechuan as the story goes, that were well versed in Tongbiquan or rather Pigua. They were known as internal rank personale; hence, the term Neijia Quan. In Hebei province, Double Winged Tongbi also known as Meihwa Chang Bi Mo Quan (plumblossom long arm mother fist). In Shanxi, Hongdong Tongbi is known as Changquan.

What this basically mean is that Tongbi, Pigua, and Taizu (Chang Quan) or even Neijia Quan for that matter might just be the same in the beginning and they took on different flavors as lineages emerged and/or people used to called them by different names but in essence is the samething they are referred to. Another old style Fanzi is IMHO a spin off of this "Chang Quan" phenomenon. Kung Fu is Kung Fu.

If we look at the "Shaolin Authentics" which essentially is the theoretical portion of "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da" and the very source of this so called 18 families sonnet, we will see that it is more or less Tongbi/Pigua in nature. Also the fact that the very idea of "mother" being mentioned in such a Daoist, Buddhist and Confucious concepts blending document suggests to me that it might have been a work by someone who was involved in the White Lotus (or its derivatives) movement through out the dynasties. Such cults believe in a diety called "Mu Sheng Lao Mo" roughly translated as the mother of unborn.

Anyway, I digressed. The point is that anything from the "Luohan Xing Gong Duan Da" manuscripts at best leads us to a connection between Tongbi/Pigua and Tanglang and it's more than likely that it's sometime from middle to late Ming and Early Qing dynasty. I wouldn't even be surprised if it is mid 1700s work based on one or more of Shandong's folk arts but borrowed the Henan Shaolin fame as a marketing point.

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

If you search under my screen name for my past posts you will find some interesting info on Tong Bei and PM.
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[ChaoticMantis]

You will see that the Tong Bei style techniques are much more apparent in 8 Step Preying Mantis than the original Tong Bei style that was part of the 18 styles that Master Wang Lang used to create the original Praying Mantis System.

Master Jiang Hualong studied Tong Bei from Master Wang Zhongqing and Baqua/XingYi from Master Chen Deshan. He later incorporated Tong Bei/Baqua/XingYi with his Plum Blossom Praying Mantis to created a new hybrid 8 Step Preying Mantis. The 6 sets of zhaiyaoquan are part of the core 8 Step Preying Mantis sets that have heavy influences from TongBei/Baqua/XingYi.

[Three Harmonies]

You will see that the Tong Bei style techniques are much more apparent in 8 Step Preying Mantis than the original Tong Bei style that was part of the 18 styles that Master Wang Lang used to create the original Praying Mantis System.


Not trying to start an argument.....but am I understanding you right here:
You are saying the Tongbei in Eight Step today is more "authentic/true/original" than the Tong Bei that was supposedly taught hundreds of years ago?
Am I understanding you right? May I request your source(s) for such a statement?

Thanks
Jake :)

[ChaoticMantis]

Jake,

What I am saying is that you will see more of the Tongbei techniques in the Eight Step sets that was incorporated by Master Jiang Hualong.

I am in NO WAY trying to say that Tongbei in Eight Step today is more "authentic/true/original" than the Tong Bei in Seven Star.

I have been studying both 7 Star / 8 Step styles for about 20 years and do love them both equally. Even though there are similarities and differences between both styles. I find them both to be equally effective martial art styles.


:)

[Three Harmonies]

Thank you for clearing that up!
Jake :D

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic mantis,
May I inquire where you have learned and studied ba bu for 20 years and from whom? I see you are in PA did you learn it there? thank you in advance.
I hope I am not out for line being so inquizitive.

[ChaoticMantis]

Earth Dragon,

Actually it is over a span of 22 years total (7 Star & 8 Step ). The 7 Star I learned from Carl Albright (LawClansman)'s kung fu brother in NYC during early 80s . The 8 Step I learned from James Sun from the late 80s. I learned a combined 29 hand/weapon forms in 7 Star and 13 hand forms in 8 Step.

Please do not ask me further on my historical background with 8 Step. I mean no disrespect, but I only want to discuss and learn about northern mantis styles, history, techniques and nothing else. I do not want to get into this 8 Step flame war on this forum.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

CM
Here! Here! Nicely put!

Like this guy already! :)

[ChaoticMantis]

Thanks Jake. :)

8 Step has been getting a bad rap on this forum with all the infighting. I think everybody is tired of hearing about 8 Step because every time a new 8 Step thread starts a flame war will most likely happen.

I have read most of the archives relating to 8 Step and about 80% of the posting ends up in some type of flame war. It's not just within Master James Sun's lineage, but also with his other kung fu brothers’ lineage. I think Grand Master Wei would be deeply disappointed if he was still alive today. There have been some great posts by a few 8 Step practitioners in the past and apparently they either no longer post or do not contribute as often.

8 Step practitioners should strive toward building unity among themselves in order to create a strong foundation so that this mantis style can flourish.

I hope to start contributing more about 8 Step so other fellow practitioners can get more insight of this breed of Mantis style. Hopefully this will encourage other 8 Step practitioners to start coming forward and contribute to this forum.

My journey toward the road of 8 Step still has a long way to go and part of this journey entail also getting more insight on other Northern Mantis styles.

You are probably wondering what about my 7 Star contributions. I will leave that to all you other 7 Star practitioners to contribute and I feel that you folks are much more knowledgeable in this style than I do. Besides the 7 Star contributions to this forum are going strong and a wealth of knowledge has been shared. Also I want to concentrate my effort on evangelizing 8 Step as I want to help this style to grow and flourish.

Sorry to go off this topic, but I feel this needed to be said.

:)